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amos1er
06-02-2013, 07:02 PM
Newly hired Detroit Pistons consultant Phil Jackson said in a radio interview that the reason the Detroit Pistons beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the 2004 finals was through flopping. Jackson, then the coach of a star studded Lakers team that featured Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant and Karl Malone, said that Piston players intentionally went down when hit by retired center O’Neal.
per Detroit News

Phil Jackson was brought in by the Pistons to help consult during their coaching search, but apparently he can’t let his Piston-inflicted wounds heal.
Jackson has 11 championship rings as a coach but suffered arguably the most embarrassing loss of his coaching career at the hands of the 2004 Pistons, who defeated the star-studded Lakers in five games.
Doing a radio interview with ESPN’s Scott Van Pelt and Ryen Russillo on Thursday, Jackson was asked how Shaquille O’Neal would fare if he were placed in Wilt Chamberlain’s era.
Jackson proceeded to seemingly take a shot at the Pistons and former coach Larry Brown, insinuating the Pistons flopped against O’Neal during that series and that it led to the Lakers’ demise.
“Larry Brown taught guys to go down (flop) on Shaq and that’s one of the reasons they won in ’04,” Jackson said. “He had the center, (Ben) Wallace as the David in that matchup and those (plays) were called as charges.”
The series wasn’t even as close as the 4-1 ledger indicated, as the Lakers’ only win came courtesy of Kobe Bryant saving them in Game 2 with a 3-pointer that sent the game into overtime.
The Pistons blew the Lakers out in two of their four wins, including the clincher, where they led by 27 in the fourth quarter, in big part due to flopping, according to Jackson.
“Shaq would put a shoulder into you and test how close he could get to the basket,” said Jackson, who’s on a tour promoting his book “Eleven Rings.”
O’Neal was one of the few Lakers who had a good series against the Pistons, averaging 26.6 points and 10.8 rebounds on 63 percent shooting.
Bryant took nearly 30 more shots than O’Neal and shot just 38 percent as the Pistons steamrolled Jackson’s Lakers, so his comments ring a bit hollow.
Jackson is friends with current Pistons owner Tom Gores, who purchased the team well after they beat the Lakers in 2004. Jackson is involved with the coaching search as an unpaid assistant.

http://www.themarsreel.com/phil-jackson-says-the-detroit-pistons-flopped-their-way-to-the-title-in-2004/

I always knew thought there was something odd about that series. The pistons shot 171 free throws to the Lakers 111 setting an NBA record for the greatest free throw disparity in finals history? http://www.basketball-reference.com/...04_finals.html

Hamilton, Billups, and Ben Wallace all get more FTA than Kobe Bryant. I'm not trying to act like the Lakers haven't gotten their share of love from the refs or anything, I'm just saying that the 2004 NBA finals were clearly in favor of the Pistons. The NBA didn't want Kobe to be finals MVP the same year he was accused of rape. Its pretty obvious really.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 07:06 PM
shut up phil. we all know only the Heat flop. they invented it!


i'm not gonna get into this, because i can't remember the 2004 finals with clarity. we can look at FT numbers, but much like this Heat series has shown us, sometimes players who shoot a ton of FTs regularly have series where they shouldn't and don't. FT numbers often don't mean anything when it comes to unfair officiating, and are less telling about "flopping". i'd only feel comfortable commenting if i watched the games over and scrutinized the officiating that way.

Jenceman
06-02-2013, 07:32 PM
Shaq's lack of free throws is what really bothered me. Utter ********.

Gators123
06-02-2013, 07:42 PM
The series wasn't even that close. Flopping didn't make the Pistons win. They were clearly the better team.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 08:23 PM
The series wasn't even that close. Flopping didn't make the Pistons win. They were clearly the better team.

Wrong. The pistons shot 171 free throws to the Lakers 111 setting an NBA record for the greatest free throw disparity in finals history.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-02-2013, 08:29 PM
Wrong. The pistons shot 171 free throws to the Lakers 111 setting an NBA record for the greatest free throw disparity in finals history.

If the Lakers were the better team, they wouldn't have scored 68 points in one game, won their only game in OT and ultimately lose the series in 5 games. But if it makes you sleep any better at night, then fine, the Lakers were the better team and the refs rigged it for the Pistons.

Slug3
06-02-2013, 08:32 PM
Wrong. The pistons shot 171 free throws to the Lakers 111 setting an NBA record for the greatest free throw disparity in finals history.

I'm on a phone and can't get it to come up. But can you tell me how many FTs the Lakers made and how many the Pistons made?

Chronz
06-02-2013, 08:40 PM
What does his quote have to do with your fta theory? Hes talking about OFFENSIVE fouls is he not? That Detroit won with a flop strat, this would somewhat explain why Shaq was limited in terms of touches. Either way, Detroit had the better team and when you get crushed the way they did, there is ZERO doubt in my mind.

Chronz
06-02-2013, 08:41 PM
Wrong. The pistons shot 171 free throws to the Lakers 111 setting an NBA record for the greatest free throw disparity in finals history.
There is nothing remotely wrong about what he said. The Pistons getting to the line that much is a display of that superiority against the Lakers.

More-Than-Most
06-02-2013, 08:41 PM
Defense wins championships.... Pistons were the better team. Jackson needs to just stfu damn

HYFR
06-02-2013, 08:43 PM
Just take the L Phil. Makes you sound like a bitter old man

rocket
06-02-2013, 08:45 PM
Yeah it was rigged for the Pistons

Lakers were the better team

Give them the title.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 08:46 PM
A combination of flops but more importantly Larry Browns use of the newly instituted Shaq's too good rule, I mean the Zone.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 08:47 PM
do you know the names of the refs so i can send them thank you muffins?

D-Leethal
06-02-2013, 08:57 PM
That series wasn't even close. Is this a book tour or a 'remind everyone why I'm the GOAT tour'. Trying to cover up the only blemishes on his track record and the Bill Russell comments trying to make sure everyone looks at rings and only rings when evaluating the GOATs.

Mell413
06-02-2013, 09:04 PM
Phil just comes off like a bitter old man. That series wasn't even all that close. I have a hard time buying flopping was the difference in that series. That series was the first 5 game sweep I've seen.

Sandman
06-02-2013, 09:14 PM
there are different things that get thrown under the word flop

one is taking contact and falling over when you could have pushed back or tried to regain your balance. Like Phil says in the interview he would put his shoulder into you to see how close he could get to the basket. They were taking that contact to the ground. This was pretty much around the time in NBA history where post basketball changed from brute size and strength to footing and athleticism and right after Shaq referred to himself as the LCL last center left.

The other is this BS jerking your neck back and grabbing your head every time somebody gets near your titts. Thats ***** basketball.

ARMIN12NBA
06-02-2013, 09:20 PM
Shaq was called for 4 straight tip ball violations in that series if anybody remembers. It was the ABSOLUTE strangest recurring call I had ever witnessed and it happened for the whole series. To start the game, Shaq would win every tip and the officials would call him on a violation. It was as if the officials were sending a message to the Lakers every single game because in my view those tips were clean and I highly doubt Shaq went braindead forgetting how to execute jump balls.

Phil Jackson also wrote in his book The Last Season about how Tayshaun Prince gave a "high-five" to Kobe on every single jumper he attempted that series and the amount of reaching in by Hamilton, Billups, etc. was honestly unprecedented. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that series, but he was constantly shooting to find a rhythm that was unattainable because he couldn't get foul calls on blatant hacking and fouling. And the Lakers really had nobody else to pick up the scoring or playmaking slack, which left Kobe doing a really solid job of keeping Shaq involved and dominating but he could never get himself going due to the officiating.

I'd actually say this was the most frustrating series I have ever witnessed. Karl Malone and Horace Grant being injured, leaving Slava Medvenko to play heavy minutes beside Shaq and backup up Shaq for the extremely thin frontline. Rick Fox getting injured which forced Devean George to have to step up and even old Bryon Russell to log Finals minutes after barely playing all season. Gary still needing to hold the ball for long periods of time to be effective because he still hadn't figured out how to play within the team game.

I think the Lakers could have still won this series despite the seemingly unfair officiating, but the Lakers front office never invested in their frontline. Shaq's best backup for the three-peat seasons was probably Samaki Walker! That's ridiculous. In fact, many people try to use the win-loss numbers from those seasons of when Shaq was out and Kobe was alone to prove that Kobe was less important to the Lakers than Shaq. I always found that analysis to not be fully fleshed out. In actuality, those win-loss numbers prove how little management ever invested in the Lakers frontline outside of Shaq, which was true. They get Karl Malone out of sheer luck that he was willing to come to play for a championship, but they still relied on an old Horace Grant and then Slava Medvenko to round out the 4/5 positions. Malone and Grant's injuries should have been expected or at least prepared for by acquiring an adequate backup.

Shlumpledink
06-02-2013, 09:49 PM
I remember that series, Karl Malone was injured, and Horace Grant was out too. The backup was some russian dude that no one has ever heard of since.

I always thought that the Pistons team was more physical on defense than the Lakers in that series.

Jarvo
06-02-2013, 10:35 PM
Cry me a river

DetroitBadBoy
06-02-2013, 10:57 PM
Cry me a river
This sums up the thread. It's like "Simon says" with Lakers fans when it comes to Phil. I guess you can call it "Phil says."

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 11:18 PM
Phils an oddball, that's for sure.

Jarvo
06-02-2013, 11:25 PM
This sums up the thread. It's like "Simon says" with Lakers fans when it comes to Phil. I guess you can call it "Phil says."

Foreal, I was so damn happy The Pistons beat them and Sheed, Big Ben, RIP, Prince & Chauncy won!

jam
06-02-2013, 11:29 PM
My contempt for this whining b$tch of an ex coach continues to grow. He is the most passive aggressive egomaniac, maybe even megalomaniac we have ever seen among NBA coaches. PJ is a b$tch because:

1. he's a weak-*** frontrunner

2. no other team ever gets credit

3. instead of criticizing his players to their faces, he goes to reporters, talks sh$t, then denies it later.

4. throws everyone under the bus: players, assistants, opposing teams under the bus lest he EVER face any criticism

I just wish he were 30 years younger so I could walk up to him and kick him in the nuts.

Blink
06-02-2013, 11:30 PM
So flopping is the reason they the Lakers lost in 5 games?

I'm surprised Phil isn't trying to get some bum off the streets to coach our team as payback.

RipCity32
06-02-2013, 11:34 PM
Wow..Really Phil this is just pathetic.

stawka
06-03-2013, 04:02 AM
Pretty sure it was Kobe who flopped in that series. His awesome % and him being a great teammate is what ****ed the Lakers that series.

amos1er
06-03-2013, 04:20 AM
Shaq was called for 4 straight tip ball violations in that series if anybody remembers. It was the ABSOLUTE strangest recurring call I had ever witnessed and it happened for the whole series. To start the game, Shaq would win every tip and the officials would call him on a violation. It was as if the officials were sending a message to the Lakers every single game because in my view those tips were clean and I highly doubt Shaq went braindead forgetting how to execute jump balls.

Phil Jackson also wrote in his book The Last Season about how Tayshaun Prince gave a "high-five" to Kobe on every single jumper he attempted that series and the amount of reaching in by Hamilton, Billups, etc. was honestly unprecedented. Kobe was an inefficient chucker that series, but he was constantly shooting to find a rhythm that was unattainable because he couldn't get foul calls on blatant hacking and fouling. And the Lakers really had nobody else to pick up the scoring or playmaking slack, which left Kobe doing a really solid job of keeping Shaq involved and dominating but he could never get himself going due to the officiating.

I'd actually say this was the most frustrating series I have ever witnessed. Karl Malone and Horace Grant being injured, leaving Slava Medvenko to play heavy minutes beside Shaq and backup up Shaq for the extremely thin frontline. Rick Fox getting injured which forced Devean George to have to step up and even old Bryon Russell to log Finals minutes after barely playing all season. Gary still needing to hold the ball for long periods of time to be effective because he still hadn't figured out how to play within the team game.

I think the Lakers could have still won this series despite the seemingly unfair officiating, but the Lakers front office never invested in their frontline. Shaq's best backup for the three-peat seasons was probably Samaki Walker! That's ridiculous. In fact, many people try to use the win-loss numbers from those seasons of when Shaq was out and Kobe was alone to prove that Kobe was less important to the Lakers than Shaq. I always found that analysis to not be fully fleshed out. In actuality, those win-loss numbers prove how little management ever invested in the Lakers frontline outside of Shaq, which was true. They get Karl Malone out of sheer luck that he was willing to come to play for a championship, but they still relied on an old Horace Grant and then Slava Medvenko to round out the 4/5 positions. Malone and Grant's injuries should have been expected or at least prepared for by acquiring an adequate backup.

:clap:

This was one of the most blatantly rigged series I have ever seen next to the 2006 finals of course. The Lakers were among the top in the league in FT attempts all season long and in the playoffs. The Pistons were in the bottom of the league in FT attempts all season long and in the playoffs. Then all of the sudden the Pistons had a season high in FT attempts when they played the Lakers and the Lakers had a season low. Coincidence, I think not. Not to mention the pistons shot 171 free throws to the Lakers 111 making it the greatest disparity in free throw attempts for a finals series in NBA history. These are all facts. Look them up if you don't believe me.

Great reference to Phil's last book, I remember he said that game 4 was one of the most blatantly rigged games he has ever seen and I'm inclined to agree. The Lakers stood no chance with how bad the officiating was in that game. Perhaps one of the most lopsided games I have ever witnessed in terms of officiating, but no one ever says anything because at the time the majority of people hated Kobe because of the Colorado incident and because the Pistons were a blue collar team who represented the financially devastated city of Detroit. A true Cinderella story that the NBA wanted to promote at all costs and to also avoid having a freshly accused rapist/adulterist hoisting the finals MVP trophy. Impossible to say whether the Lakers would have won that series or not, but the refs sure did their best to make it impossible. Their injuries sure didn't help their cause either.

amos1er
06-03-2013, 04:21 AM
Pretty sure it was Kobe who flopped in that series. His awesome % and him being a great teammate is what ****ed the Lakers that series.

A direct result of blatant no calls whenever Tayshaun Prince would "high-five" him on every single jumper he attempted.

Teeboy1487
06-03-2013, 04:27 AM
This series is a blur and it's meaningless as hell to me now. I knew the Shaq and Kobe era was ending. The injuries and all the distractions were too much. Payton was clearly not a fit in the triangle. Detroit was an amazing team. However, I was definitely shocked they beat the lakers and so easily. I just felt the series was over after game 3. Took me a while, but I got over it. The Boston series in 08 still stings to this day especially giving up a 20 point lead.

naps
06-03-2013, 04:44 AM
The NBA didn't want Kobe to be finals MVP the same year he was accused of rape. Its pretty obvious really.

What? NBA didn't want Kobe to win that finals MVP? I bet you have no idea what you're talking about because I am absolutely positive you didn't know what basketball meant in 2004. First of all, that series was not even close and should have been a sweep. Secondly, even if the Lakers won, Shaq would have been the unanimous MVP. Shaq was phenomenal with 27/11 on 63% from the field, while Kobe was abysmal shooting only 38% from the field for 23/4. If anything Kobe cost them the series.

amos1er
06-03-2013, 04:47 AM
Phil just comes off like a bitter old man. That series wasn't even all that close. I have a hard time buying flopping was the difference in that series. That series was the first 5 game sweep I've seen.

Bitter old man??? Lol. Phil's won 11 rings as a coach. He is far from bitter. Just speaking the truth IMO. Who are to question the "Zen Master".

HeaTxRipZz
06-03-2013, 05:02 AM
My contempt for this whining b$tch of an ex coach continues to grow. He is the most passive aggressive egomaniac, maybe even megalomaniac we have ever seen among NBA coaches. PJ is a b$tch because:

1. he's a weak-*** frontrunner

2. no other team ever gets credit

3. instead of criticizing his players to their faces, he goes to reporters, talks sh$t, then denies it later.

4. throws everyone under the bus: players, assistants, opposing teams under the bus lest he EVER face any criticism

I just wish he were 30 years younger so I could walk up to him and kick him in the nuts.

It's easy to call Phil a front runner when looking back on it but at the time could you really call him that? Jordan wasn't known as the GOAT when Phil became the coach and Kobe wasn't known as the closest thing to a 2nd coming when Phil first started coaching him.

Anyways I've always respected anything Phil has had to say. He has been very successful in basketball and knows what he's talking about. Dudes here get carried away emotionally

jam
06-03-2013, 06:23 AM
You don't understand: phil's megalomania is an essential ingredient and component of his success. He needed to have a titanic ego and rock solid belief system to keep Jordan and Rodman in line, and to keep that wacky GM of theirs at bay.

And he worked his way up the coaching ranks the hard way, the traditional way before being named bulls' head coach.

But there is always a tipping point where you believe your ish no longer stinks. It doesn't matter when it tipped, but it tipped a long time ago, and he is now firmly delusional. He NEVER make a mistake. He NEVER lost a championship.

At a certain point he no longer supplied a philosophy and strategy, but became a backstabbing conniving manipulator, in his dealings with his players, his assistants and the media. There is still some zen goodness floating around in that foggy head of his, but for the most part, it is polluted by his delusions of grandeur and omnipotence.

But it's not just phil jackson. You just can't find humble, hard working "stars" in the nba any longer.

I'm still think basketball is a great game, but the NBA is not really basketball anymore at this point. It's a pool of enormous egos and brands putting together a circus form of entertainment which is derived from basketball but is something very different now.


It's easy to call Phil a front runner when looking back on it but at the time could you really call him that? Jordan wasn't known as the GOAT when Phil became the coach and Kobe wasn't known as the closest thing to a 2nd coming when Phil first started coaching him.

Anyways I've always respected anything Phil has had to say. He has been very successful in basketball and knows what he's talking about. Dudes here get carried away emotionally

mark1125
06-03-2013, 06:26 AM
SO just so I get this.......Coat Tail Phil and Laker fans are crying about a series 9 years ago? Sounds about right.

jam
06-03-2013, 07:17 AM
Phil thinks everyone is beneath him. His next book is going to have a chapter on how Jeannie is subpar in bed. How his maid leaves lint in his navel. His dog takes too long to fetch his slippers. Kobe doesn't text him anymore.

Dude is such a whiny b#tch.

JiffyMix88
06-03-2013, 08:15 AM
haha funny why didn't he bring up his 11th ring and how the refs gifted that 4th quarter to the Lakers against Boston in game 7...

HouRealCoach
06-03-2013, 08:19 AM
Another case of Phil Jackson talking complete nonsense...

tr3ymill3r
06-03-2013, 08:44 AM
I think it probably had more to do with Chauncy feasting on Gary Payton, Malone unable to guard either Wallace and Prince making every shot difficult for Kobe and the fact that Shaq still can't shoot free throws.

LongWayFromHome
06-03-2013, 09:06 AM
:crying:

HotMayo
06-03-2013, 09:08 AM
So flopping is the reason they the Lakers lost in 5 games?

I'm surprised Phil isn't trying to get some bum off the streets to coach our team as payback.

BE careful you might jinx it. Maurice cheeks is what Phil is pushing for.

HotMayo
06-03-2013, 09:15 AM
I've watched this series over again a couple days ago on YouTube. Pistons were the most dominant team at the time. It is a scandal to take away what they did. 3 starters were all defense. Pistons were elite in defense and the much better team, overall. People shoudnt forget how great of a team they were and how deep. Phil Jackson loses my respect and I dont want his Minion Brian shaw or him around the organization ever again. Tom gores should be upset over this but he's not bc he knows nothing to be a piston, only joe is mad over this.

Chrisclover
06-03-2013, 09:31 AM
boost his popularity to sell his new book?

JasonJohnHorn
06-03-2013, 09:41 AM
As the article points out, Shaq was the best player that series, so the theory that Detroit flopped their way is silly... Shaq didn't foul out, he got lots of minutes and he was the best player on the court that series, not to mention that Detroit blew LAL out in game three and won by 12 ans 13 in games 1 and 5. There were really only two close games in the series, the one that went into ON, and the one Detroit won by 8, which was still a convincing win for Detroit.

Shaq played 45 minutes in game one and only had 4 fouls. 38 min, 5 fouls in game 3. 47 minutes in game 4 with 4 fouls and in game five 35 minutes with 4 fouls again.

Shaq was getting around the same fouls called on him throughout the regular season.

Phil Jackson is the LAST man on the planet who should complain about officiating. Jordan and Kobe/Shaq got SO many calls... Jackson would have at least 5 fewer rings if officials called games with superstars evenly.


Detroit beat LAL that year fair and square... they dominated them in fact. It was the first five game sweep (because Detroit won game 2 as well, the officials kept LAL in the game).


And Shaq always got away with offensive fouls for his entire career. He didn't have the foot work that Hakeem or D-Rob had, or the range of Ewing or Kareem... he needed to be up close to score and he threw his body around to do it. He'd also put his off arm over the defenders shoulder to keep them from being able to jump up and contest his shot and got away with it a lot. Shaq complained that officials didn't call fouls for him when guys were being physical with him, but the reason they had to be so physical with him is because the officials let Shaq get away with offensive fouls on countless possessions and it was the only thing they could do to slow him down.

There is a list of players and coaches who aren't allowed to complain about officiating because they have been coddled by them. On that list are: Jackson, Jordan, Kobe and Shaq.

I don't want to hear it from any of them. Jackson has 11 rings. Is that not enough? Can't he recognize other great teams? It sounds like sour grapes, which is pretty pathetic given that he is such a decorated coach.

ElChinoLatino
06-03-2013, 10:01 AM
wha wha whaaaaaa. Just a whiny, hypocritical sourpuss ranting on how he didn't get calls like he always did. It's called the hot girl syndrome. When something doesn't/didn't go right for you whine, *****, and moan.

xRipCity
06-03-2013, 10:35 AM
Is it just me or has Phil been a huge ****** this year?

Losing his entitlement to being called the Zen Master...