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View Full Version : Is LeBron Guilty of Hero Ball?



RaiderLakersA's
06-02-2013, 12:01 PM
I'd never thought I'd live to see the day when LeBron, Mr. Unselfish, Captain It's All About the Team, Chief Assist Daddy Supreme, Doctor "Dude You Take the Last Shot", etc., etc., would ever be accused of hero ball, but then I read this ESPN quote:


D. Wade:

"We've got guys individually who want to play better," Wade said. "But we've got to try to help each other out in this locker room and not leave it up to the individual to self-will it."

L. James:

"I mean, we can state the obvious; they're both struggling," James said of Wade and Bosh. "When you're struggling, the best thing to get is a layup or a dunk. [Wade] missed a couple of them ... Chris is struggling with his shot and him hurting his ankle didn't help."


Who is right? Is LeBron really trying to do too much? Is he really behaving like a selfish player and causing the team chemistry to go off the tracks in MIA? Or is he just doing what he's supposed to do when he's the only healthy productive option on the team? Discuss.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9333733/2013-nba-playoffs-dwyane-wade-says-chris-bosh-need-bigger-role

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 12:03 PM
lmao no definitely not. This is not a situation like Kobe has done in the past and chucked the Lakers out of games.

Sly Guy
06-02-2013, 12:07 PM
lol, wanting to blame LBJ for hero ball?

You can't ask for more from him than what he's given you this post season. He's one of the few guys in history who recognizes when he needs to play with his team, and when he needs to take everything over. If a heat player wants LBJ to stop playing hero ball, they'd better elevate their game to the point where he trusts them cuz time and time again LBJ's shown a willingness to be a distributor.

Max.This
06-02-2013, 12:08 PM
D Wade was playing last night?:eyebrow:

OceanSpray
06-02-2013, 12:09 PM
LeBron and Nash are probably the two players who you should never blame for hero ball. Wade just needs an excuse. He's the whiniest player in NBA and needs to man up and start playing like he's a top player. No doubt, James will leave after this year win or lose. Wade is just trash.

seikou8
06-02-2013, 12:10 PM
wade is playing like a scrub no excuses for that bosh is playing soft mike and cole was getting points and was involved.

mngopher35
06-02-2013, 12:12 PM
I'd never thought I'd live to see the day when LeBron, Mr. Unselfish, Captain It's All About the Team, Chief Assist Daddy Supreme, Doctor "Dude You Take the Last Shot", etc., etc., would ever be accused of hero ball, but then I read this ESPN quote:


D. Wade:

"We've got guys individually who want to play better," Wade said. "But we've got to try to help each other out in this locker room and not leave it up to the individual to self-will it."

L. James:

"I mean, we can state the obvious; they're both struggling," James said of Wade and Bosh. "When you're struggling, the best thing to get is a layup or a dunk. [Wade] missed a couple of them ... Chris is struggling with his shot and him hurting his ankle didn't help."


Who is right? Is LeBron really trying to do too much? Is he really behaving like a selfish player and causing the team chemistry to go off the tracks in MIA? Or is he just doing what he's supposed to do when he's the only healthy productive option on the team? Discuss.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9333733/2013-nba-playoffs-dwyane-wade-says-chris-bosh-need-bigger-role

Maybe a little but at this point he kinda has to. I think neither of them should have said what they did but o well. The heat almost always start out games trying to get everyone involved and they do a pretty good job of maintaining that throughout the game. The problem right now is that wade has been a shell of his former self, and bosh just hasn't been producing like usual. I get that Wade wants more touches, but all he does is settle for jumpers and miss. You can't go 3/11 and then complain about not getting it enough, cmon man. You were on the bench and outplayed by mike miller in the 4th quarter. Even when Lebron was out and it was wade and bosh on the court they did nothing. Ray allen and Cole are the ones who picked up the scoring.

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 12:13 PM
LeBron used to always play disguised "hero ball" in Cleveland, and he's just reverting to that style out of desperation in this series.

What I mean is, LeBron used to always dominate the ball to insane levels when he was in Cleveland. This was due to him being both the de-facto PG and the by far leading scorer. While it made sense at times given the teams talents and them being designed around LeBron Ball, at the same time it's going to limit a players ability on offense as they get turned into nothing but spot up shooters and pick n roll finishers.

Some people like to just point to assists as proof that someone is passing a lot and making teammates better, but when most of your passes come in the form of drive and kick outs or pick n roll play then it's going to be hard not to rack up assists when you dominate the ball that much. In Cleveland there was a trend, and that trend was players would join LeBron and see a decrease in individual production, and at times efficiency, due to them being put into a role out of their comfort zone.

A great example of this was Antwan Jamison or Larry Hughes. Jamison was averaging 20 PPG in the season he was traded to Cleveland, and then his entire production nose dived as he got put into a spot up shooting stretch 4 role. Larry Hughes actually made an All-Star team before joining Cleveland, being the slasher in Washington's high pace offense. The combination of Cleveland's slow pace killing his open court production, the fact that LeBron will dominate the ball in all open court play available and that a slasher with a questionable jump shot got turned into a spot up shooter ended up derailing his career.

LeBron is a great player, the best in the league right now, but the idea that he makes players better is also a farce. The only players he helps are the guys who are already nothing but spot up shooters and pick n roll finishers. If you're anything more and can't adjust to that type of role player role then prepare to have your game destroyed.

Sadds The Gr8
06-02-2013, 12:23 PM
Well if Wade and Rupaul are gonna shoot 30% and under 10 pts every game then wtf is Lebron supposed to do?

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 12:26 PM
Lol no.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 12:26 PM
LeBron used to always play disguised "hero ball" in Cleveland, and he's just reverting to that style out of desperation in this series.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Under-Cover Hero Ball lmaoo

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 12:29 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Under-Cover Hero Ball lmaoo

I'm glad you agree. :up:

When you handle the ball as much as Steve Nash and take over 20 FGA per game then you are playing hero ball. Just because his dish and kick outs and PnR plays fooled you doesn't make it false. Ask the players who joined them and had to try and adjust to a role player role if he played hero ball.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 12:32 PM
I'm glad you agree. :up:

When you handle the ball as much as Steve Nash and take over 20 FGA per game then you are playing hero ball. Just because his dish and kick outs and PnR plays fooled you doesn't make it false. Ask the players who joined them and had to try and adjust to a role player role if he played hero ball.
Ok LeBron should have just not taken any shots and let his team lose by 30 points.

MTL_123
06-02-2013, 12:34 PM
How can wade even complain hes not attacking the rim and and if he does get the ball he keeps on shooting terrible contested jumpers that always brick. No **** lebron does't want to pass you the ball

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 12:35 PM
Ok LeBron should have just not taken any shots and let his team lose by 30 points.

Or he could let elite offensive players play their games and use their abilities at the expense of his individual stats.

Example - game 3

LeBron - 22 points, 3 assists, 8-17
Wade - 18 points, 8 assists, 8-14
Bosh - 15 points, 6-10

Result: Heat win in blowout

Not so good for his $tat$ though, was it?

Bosh has been turned into Donyell Marshall on offense. This is a guy who led the NBA in back to the basket FG% and scored an efficient 24 PPG surrounded by garbage the year before he went to Miami.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 12:41 PM
Lebron James, by definition, can never be accused of hero ball. He is the most unselfish player to ever play the game. He gets out of bed in the morning thinking "how can I make my teammates better."

He is being ridiculously let down by his less than mediocre hall of fame cast.

slaker619
06-02-2013, 12:44 PM
Wade & Bosh need to stop slacking plain and simple because if they miraculously win against pacers, their just gonna lose 4-0 to spurs if they keep us this play of ball!

kdspurman
06-02-2013, 12:45 PM
I think sometimes he is guilty of hero ball, but sometimes it's needed so hard to blame him. And it doesn't happen often, but there are times where you see shades of it.

I think part of it is on Spo too, he's gotta put guys out there who will produce. If it means benching Wade & Bosh then so be it. You see Mike Miller come in and hit 2 three's right away as an example. Even Joel Anthony was more productive than Bosh.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 12:51 PM
LeBron used to always play disguised "hero ball" in Cleveland, and he's just reverting to that style out of desperation in this series.

What I mean is, LeBron used to always dominate the ball to insane levels when he was in Cleveland. This was due to him being both the de-facto PG and the by far leading scorer. While it made sense at times given the teams talents and them being designed around LeBron Ball, at the same time it's going to limit a players ability on offense as they get turned into nothing but spot up shooters and pick n roll finishers.

Some people like to just point to assists as proof that someone is passing a lot and making teammates better, but when most of your passes come in the form of drive and kick outs or pick n roll play then it's going to be hard not to rack up assists when you dominate the ball that much. In Cleveland there was a trend, and that trend was players would join LeBron and see a decrease in individual production, and at times efficiency, due to them being put into a role out of their comfort zone.

A great example of this was Antwan Jamison or Larry Hughes. Jamison was averaging 20 PPG in the season he was traded to Cleveland, and then his entire production nose dived as he got put into a spot up shooting stretch 4 role. Larry Hughes actually made an All-Star team before joining Cleveland, being the slasher in Washington's high pace offense. The combination of Cleveland's slow pace killing his open court production, the fact that LeBron will dominate the ball in all open court play available and that a slasher with a questionable jump shot got turned into a spot up shooter ended up derailing his career.

LeBron is a great player, the best in the league right now, but the idea that he makes players better is also a farce. The only players he helps are the guys who are already nothing but spot up shooters and pick n roll finishers. If you're anything more and can't adjust to that type of role player role then prepare to have your game destroyed.

Coming from a Knick fan, this is pretty ironic.


Or he could let elite offensive players play their games and use their abilities at the expense of his individual stats.

Example - game 3

LeBron - 22 points, 3 assists, 8-17
Wade - 18 points, 8 assists, 8-14
Bosh - 15 points, 6-10

Result: Heat win in blowout

Not so good for his $tat$ though, was it?

Bosh has been turned into Donyell Marshall on offense. This is a guy who led the NBA in back to the basket FG% and scored an efficient 24 PPG surrounded by garbage the year before he went to Miami.

Lmao.


Lebron James, by definition, can never be accused of hero ball. He is the most unselfish player to ever play the game. He gets out of bed in the morning thinking "how can I make my teammates better."

He is being ridiculously let down by his less than mediocre hall of fame cast.

This...

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Coming from a Knick fan, this is pretty ironic.



Lmao.



This...

Yeah, I guess facts are more ironic when coming from a Knicks fan... OR is that supposed to be about Melo? Oddly enough Melo, with all of his "ball hogging", still allowed JR Smith to take 90 FGA and 27 FTA in 6 games to score 81 points on 28% from the field. Wade has 77 FGA and 27 FTA on 44% through 6 games despite being Dwayne Wade and had his touches killed after averaging 17 PPG and 6 APG on 48% in the first four games. Melo has also played at a high level with ball dominant players like Chauncey Billups, Allen Iverson and Andre Miller. Jokes on you, pal.

Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh suck on offense, you're right.

LeBron showed great unselfishness when he yelled at Anderson Varejao on the court for going after the same rebound not once but twice, and both in playoff games.

Slug3
06-02-2013, 01:02 PM
How can he not? It's honestly either A) Lebron take over or B) feed Wade and Bosh an watch them keep missing. What does Wade want? 30 damn shots so he can get 20 points and say to people he still has it?

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:04 PM
Dwyane Wade
Average touches per game for the series entering Saturday - 53
Touches he had in game 6 with a chance to end the series - 25

Chris Bosh
Average touches per game for the series entering Saturday - 27.6
Touches he had in game 6 with a chance to end the series - 19

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

No hero ball going on... nope.

RLundi
06-02-2013, 01:07 PM
Well if you're playing poorly, why should you get the ball? Wade needs to be quiet and continue to defer. He's playing awful, and I'm not ready to suggest he's in decline, but he has the best player on his team; shut up, suck it up, give LeBron the ball, and get the hell out of his way. When he's ready to contribute, he'll get his opportunity.

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:11 PM
Well if you're playing poorly, why should you get the ball? Wade needs to be quiet and continue to defer. He's playing awful, and I'm not ready to suggest he's in decline, but he has the best player on his team; shut up, suck it up, give LeBron the ball, and get the hell out of his way. When he's ready to contribute, he'll get his opportunity.

That strategy in game 6 led to the Heat scoring a whopping 77 points, despite LeBron having his individual stats.

It's a team game, and the Heat aren't winning anything if Wade and Bosh aren't playing good. This isn't Cleveland, if these guys are struggling they deserve the right to work themselves out of it. They have earned that right. LeBron has alienated the two people he needs most to win his second ring this year, that's never a good thing.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 01:14 PM
Yeah, I guess facts are more ironic when coming from a Knicks fan... OR is that supposed to be about Melo?

No I meant Knick, but it goes hand in hand.


Oddly enough Melo, with all of his "ball hogging", still allowed JR Smith to take 90 FGA and 27 FTA in 6 games to score 81 points on 28% from the field. Wade has 77 FGA and 27 FTA on 44% through 6 games despite being Dwayne Wade and had his touches killed after averaging 17 PPG and 6 APG on 48% in the first four games.

That's cause JR is a chucker. And I'm pretty sure that he attempted more shots than Wade did this season.


Melo has also played at a high level with ball dominant players like Chauncey Billups, Allen Iverson and Andre Miller. Jokes on you, pal.

Point?


Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh suck on offense, you're right.


Wade with a TS under 50% and Bosh at .532 for this series, just screams offensive juggernaut right? Lol Wilt Chamberlain who?


LeBron showed great unselfishness when he yelled at Anderson Varejao on the court for going after the same rebound not once but twice, and both in playoff games.

You could build a whole house with all this straw that you're throwing around here.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 01:15 PM
How can he not? It's honestly either A) Lebron take over or B) feed Wade and Bosh an watch them keep missing. What does Wade want? 30 damn shots so he can get 20 points and say to people he still has it?

Lmao.

RLundi
06-02-2013, 01:18 PM
That strategy in game 6 led to the Heat scoring a whopping 77 points, despite LeBron having his individual stats.

It's a team game, and the Heat aren't winning anything if Wade and Bosh aren't playing good. This isn't Cleveland, if these guys are struggling they deserve the right to work themselves out of it. They have earned that right. LeBron has alienated the two people he needs most to win his second ring this year, that's never a good thing.

They might've scored even less had Wade and Bosh had more touches. It doesn't seem like they're in an in-game funk, especially for Wade. He's been playing bad for a couple of weeks now. Allowing them to work it out may prove costly, especially in the postseason where literally every single possession matters.

LayBraun
06-02-2013, 01:24 PM
This man is over here talking about a team game?!?!? And is questioning whether lebron is trying to play hero ball? I literally cannot even believe what I am reading. It's already been said but I'll reinforce that he is the most UNSELFISH player ever. The Heat won 27 straight games if that doesn't already say enough. Wade and Bosh are playing so bad that I gag when I watch them play. It's horrendous that these two are considered top players in the game because they are so far off from that right now it's pathetic.

WHERE IS EVERYONE? It literally looks like I'm watching Cleveland all over again and it's not because lebron is trying to carry the load on offense again but it's because NO ONE ELSE IS DOING ANYTHING.

Literally, I am crying with laughter a lack of fundamental basketball knowledge. This is such an over analystic and horrible approach to a team who outside of James is playing terrible basketball.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 01:26 PM
This man is over here talking about a team game?!?!? And is questioning whether lebron is trying to play hero ball? I literally cannot even believe what I am reading. It's already been said but I'll reinforce that he is the most UNSELFISH player ever. The Heat won 27 straight games if that doesn't already say enough. Wade and Bosh are playing so bad that I gag when I watch them play. It's horrendous that these two are considered top players in the game because they are so far off from that right now it's pathetic.

WHERE IS EVERYONE? It literally looks like I'm watching Cleveland all over again and it's not because lebron is trying to carry the load on offense again but it's because NO ONE ELSE IS DOING ANYTHING.

Literally, I am crying with laughter a lack of fundamental basketball knowledge. This is such an over analystic and horrible approach to a team who outside of James is playing terrible basketball.

He's not the most unselfish player ever, maybe the most unselfish scorer ever.

LayBraun
06-02-2013, 01:29 PM
He's not the most unselfish player ever, maybe the most unselfish scorer ever.

I disagree, if you take into account his overall physical dominance and ability to drive to the hole, get a shot whenever he wants then I think he is the most unselfish ever. And I'm not saying that's always a good thing because I've seen more than my fair share of LeBrons plays when he would have been better off trying to score himself but tried to make the extra pass.

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:29 PM
No I meant Knick, but it goes hand in hand.



That's cause JR is a chucker. And I'm pretty sure that he attempted more shots than Wade did this season.



Point?



Wade with a TS under 50% and Bosh at .532 for this series, just screams offensive juggernaut right? Lol Wilt Chamberlain who?



You could build a whole house with all this straw that you're throwing around here.

JR has had freedom the handle the ball all year, unfortunately. If you're implying that Melo hinders other peoples game like LeBron does when he plays LeBron Ball, well, then that's just dumb.

Point is Melo doesn't take away from other peoples games to play his game. He's a scoring SF, not a PG, not a Point-Forward. The selfish thing for him to do would actually be for him to handle the ball more trying to set people up, as that's not his game. He's a finisher, that's his job. He has always let his PGs/perimeter players do their job and has given them ample ball control to not only not affect them but to allow for them to have great years as he draws attention. Iverson and Billups both had career rejuvenating years when they joined Melo, and JR just had the best regular season of his career.

The difference between the Knicks-Pacers series and the Heat-Pacers series in this factor is Melo was actually playing with bums. Raymond Felton, as much as I love his heart, is at best a top-20 PG in the NBA. JR Smith is a chucking bum who relies on hot streaks just to shoot 41% in the best season of his career, let alone against this Pacers defense. Iman Shumpert is on his way, but he's a solid offensive player at best. Pablo Prigioni and Tyson Chandler are not scorers in the slightest.

This is not remotely the same as keeping the ball away from people like Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, or turning them into spot up role players, no matter how hard you want it to be.

Point is LeBron handles the ball almost much as Melo as a scorer AND dominates the ball as the de-facto PG as well. Overall he handles and controls the ball far more, which would make more sense if he was still playing in Cleveland. You can't take the ball away from ball dominant players and not expect their play to drop off, that's just obvious.

Wade was averaging 17 PPG and 6 APG on 48% through the first four games. One bad game 5 doesn't mean he deserves his touches to get cut by more than half. Bosh has been turned into Donyell Marshall, he's not even close to being allowed to use his skill set. He has the thankless job of spacing the floor and drawing the center out of the paint so LeBron and Wade have more success driving, meanwhile he takes a beating playing out of position at center.

If you think LeBron is an unselfish player then you probably believe in the Easter Bunny, as well. The unselfish thing to do would be to control the ball less, play off the ball more and let players like Wade and Bosh use the skills that made them $100M players at the expense of his individual stats. Keep eating up that media hype, you probably think his first flop in his career was the one he just got fined for too.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 01:34 PM
I kindof like the strategy of giving Wade and Bosh only 10 shots each. If they win, Lebron did it singlehandedly. If they lose Lebron couldn't let them have more shots because they didn't deserve it.

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:35 PM
They might've scored even less had Wade and Bosh had more touches. It doesn't seem like they're in an in-game funk, especially for Wade. He's been playing bad for a couple of weeks now. Allowing them to work it out may prove costly, especially in the postseason where literally every single possession matters.

Wade was averaging 17 PPG and 6 APG on 48% in the first four games of this series getting 14.5 FGA per game and many more touches. It's not his normal level of play, but it's not god awful either. It certainly doesn't warrant a drop to 9.5 FGA and his touches getting cut in half the past two games. Wade can't do anything if he doesn't get the ball, he is very reliant on handling the ball.

Bosh has been turned into nothing but a spot up shooter. It's tough to do just that, especially against the best defense in the NBA. I do think he needs to be more aggressive when he does get the ball, and he should be attacking the paint instead of settling for so many jumpers, but his confidence must be shot at this point. He's been a spot up shooter all year, he hasn't used his skill set in a long time.

LayBraun
06-02-2013, 01:37 PM
And somehow the people who bash lebron NEVER make any sense haha.

Please PLEASE if anyone has actually ever wrote an unbiased, completely rational criticism of Lebron, I'd love to read it.

mngopher35
06-02-2013, 01:38 PM
Or he could let elite offensive players play their games and use their abilities at the expense of his individual stats.

Example - game 3

LeBron - 22 points, 3 assists, 8-17
Wade - 18 points, 8 assists, 8-14
Bosh - 15 points, 6-10

Result: Heat win in blowout

Not so good for his $tat$ though, was it?

Bosh has been turned into Donyell Marshall on offense. This is a guy who led the NBA in back to the basket FG% and scored an efficient 24 PPG surrounded by garbage the year before he went to Miami.

Just because they were on one night doesn't mean giving them the ball in game 6 would have paid off at all. They were playing completely different all game. Lebron is good at recognizing this and knowing what he needs to do.

Wade and Bosh combined were 4-19 for 15 points with 5 TO's and 1 assist. According to what your providing your saying if they had been given more touches they would somehow scored their extra 18 points on only 12 shots? They just magically come out of their funk with a few more touches. Wade missed layups, and whenever he got the ball pulled up for contested jumpers. Giving him 3 more shots won't allow him to go from 10 points to 18. He had opportunities and wasn't making use of them so Lebron did more (because he was producing much more efficiently).


Dwyane Wade
Average touches per game for the series entering Saturday - 53
Touches he had in game 6 with a chance to end the series - 25

Chris Bosh
Average touches per game for the series entering Saturday - 27.6
Touches he had in game 6 with a chance to end the series - 19

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

No hero ball going on... nope.

Well did those touches go to Lebron or other players? To me it didn't seem like he was the only one with the ball. Also some of those touches they normally get are in the break Lebron takes in the second. Allen and Cole took most of those possessions, because honestly they were playing better.

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:40 PM
I kindof like the strategy of giving Wade and Bosh only 10 shots each. If they win, Lebron did it singlehandedly. If they lose Lebron couldn't let them have more shots because they didn't deserve it.

As a LeBron fan, I guess. It will also ensure he puts up numbers regardless of the outcome. Example, 22 points and 3 assists in game 3 vs his 29, 7 and 6 last night.

As a Heat fan, I don't see why anyone would want to see them lose a game 7 with LeBron putting up pretty numbers over a win and a balanced offense. Not to say that they can't win with LeBron dominating the ball like he has the past two games, they did win game 5 after all, but depending on that type of explosion isn't a great recipe.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 01:44 PM
I kindof like the strategy of giving Wade and Bosh only 10 shots each. If they win, Lebron did it singlehandedly. If they lose Lebron couldn't let them have more shots because they didn't deserve it.

this only make sense, if wade/bosh didn't miss horribly in their 10 attempts, just watch the game they are trash no amount of attempts is going to help them. they kill momentum and look lost when lebron is on the bench.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 01:48 PM
And somehow the people who bash lebron NEVER make any sense haha.

Please PLEASE if anyone has actually ever wrote an unbiased, completely rational criticism of Lebron, I'd love to read it.

lol so true, kobephiles and lebron haters never make any sense.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 01:50 PM
As a LeBron fan, I guess. It will also
ensure he puts up numbers regardless of the outcome. Example, 22 points and 3 assists in game 3 vs his 29, 7 and 6 last night.

As a Heat fan, I don't see why anyone would want to see them lose a game 7 with LeBron putting up pretty numbers over a win and a balanced offense. Not to say that they can't win with LeBron dominating the ball like he has the past two games, they did win game 5 after all, but depending on that type of explosion isn't a great recipe.

That's the bottom line, there are Heat fans and Lebron fans. I'm neither but as strictly a basketball fan I can see that the Heats best chance of winning is letting Wade and Bosh get comfortable early, and then letting Lebron seal the deal in the second half.

I don't want to see Lebron taking double the amount of shots as Bosh/ Wade. I'd rather see them all with about 15 shots each, or at least Lebron and Wade with 15 each.

But Lebron fans would rather him play Cleveland ball so if they lose they have a out where he can't take the blame.

Sactown
06-02-2013, 01:52 PM
Lebron did play a little hero ball, but Bosh Wade and the others came out with no energy or desire to win

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 01:52 PM
Just because they were on one night doesn't mean giving them the ball in game 6 would have paid off at all. They were playing completely different all game. Lebron is good at recognizing this and knowing what he needs to do.

Wade and Bosh combined were 4-19 for 15 points with 5 TO's and 1 assist. According to what your providing your saying if they had been given more touches they would somehow scored their extra 18 points on only 12 shots? They just magically come out of their funk with a few more touches. Wade missed layups, and whenever he got the ball pulled up for contested jumpers. Giving him 3 more shots won't allow him to go from 10 points to 18. He had opportunities and wasn't making use of them so Lebron did more (because he was producing much more efficiently).



Well did those touches go to Lebron or other players? To me it didn't seem like he was the only one with the ball. Also some of those touches they normally get are in the break Lebron takes in the second. Allen and Cole took most of those possessions, because honestly they were playing better.

I'm not saying the production would be the same, just that if you let these elite offensive players handle the ball that they can do what they get paid to do. Obviously they weren't playing as good in game 6 as game 3, but you gotta let them play their game.

If you look at the shots in game 6 by quarter it makes no sense.

Wade
1 - 0-3
2 - 0-1
3 - 3-6
4 - 0-1

I mean Wade can't go two quarters getting 2 FGA up. Not to say that he doesn't hold his fair share of blame, but that type of inconsistent output will lead to inconsistent production. The 4th is also because of how few minutes he played in the quarter, which was a decision I didn't get. He had a good 3rd quarter, I don't see why Spo benched him like that.

Bosh
1- 1-5
2- 0-1
3- 0-2
4- 0-0

That's just crazy. One rough quarter is normal for any player, especially against that kind of defense. After that he's just completely out of the game. Again, he has his share of blame and needs to be more aggressive, but he's been turned into nothing but a spot up shooter by design as well. 4th was benched for most of it, but he never had a shot throughout the game.

LeBron
1- 4-7
2- 2-8
3- 1-3
4- 2-3

There's an example of one of those lulls, the 2nd quarter. His only made shots were dunks, it happens. But he still got 8 shots in the quarter while struggling and trying to work himself out of it, even though he sat for a large portion of the quarter.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 01:54 PM
this only make sense, if wade/bosh didn't miss
horribly in their 10 attempts, just watch the game they are trash no amount of attempts is going to help them. they kill momentum and look lost when lebron is on the bench.

Do you seriously think 10 attempts for a good player is a good gauge of productivity? Come on man.

Imagine Joe Johnson for example going 2-10 in a playoff game. Everybody would be saying "how the hell did he only get 10 shots?"

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:00 PM
That's the bottom line, there are Heat fans and Lebron fans. I'm neither but as strictly a basketball fan I can see that the Heats best chance of winning is letting Wade and Bosh get comfortable early, and then letting Lebron seal the deal in the second half.

I don't want to see Lebron taking double the amount of shots as Bosh/ Wade. I'd rather see them all with about 15 shots each, or at least Lebron and Wade with 15 each.

But Lebron fans would rather him play Cleveland ball so if they lose they have a out where he can't take the blame.

lebron is only taking 21 shots a game in this series, hes not hogging, its so funny how hard you guys are trying to blame this series on lebron woww this is a new low for lebron haters.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:01 PM
i bet you guys think kobe "carried" the lakers this year.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:04 PM
Do you seriously think 10 attempts for a good player is a good gauge of productivity? Come on man.

Imagine Joe Johnson for example going 2-10 in a playoff game. Everybody would be saying "how the hell did he only get 10 shots?"

hes injured, hes scared to attack the basket because he doesn't get a good lift and hibbert is controlling the paint, he also cant shoot, so what do you expect? watch wade when lebron is on the bench dude is completely lost.

ArmLaker
06-02-2013, 02:04 PM
LeBron dickriders at their finest. "What was he supposed to do, pass it to a struggling Wade or Bosh?"

ChitownSports16
06-02-2013, 02:07 PM
Well if Wade and Rupaul are gonna shoot 30% and under 10 pts every game then wtf is Lebron supposed to do?

I agree. As much I can't stand James, he has no other choice. Wade needs to stfu and just retire. Does he really expect to get more balls when he can't even make a damn layup anymore???

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:11 PM
LeBron dickriders at their finest. "What was he supposed to do, pass it to a struggling Wade or Bosh?"

isn't this exactly what laker fans say about kobe??

RiceOnTheRun
06-02-2013, 02:16 PM
Did you even watch the game last night?

If I had a quarter for every time Wade missed a running layup, I'd have enough money to go buy myself a McChicken or two. Even Ray Allen, undoubtedly the best shooter on the Heat, shot poorly. What else do you want Lebron to do? He can get them nice looks, Ray had a few open threes, but if they can't hit their shots it doesn't mean jack. Hopefully this is a wake up call for the Heat, and they get their act together for game seven.

Ironically, I think this is a blessing in disguise. Struggling against the Pacers, whom they have some leeway with is far better than struggling against the Spurs. The only reason Miami was even in that game was because the Pacers were missing shots in the first half, but you can be damn sure nobody on the Spurs will be doing that before Pop pulls them out of the game. I'd rather see the Heat come out of this on fire and ready to take on the Spurs. It would truly be disappointing if their season was to end here, I personally like Lebron and want to see him succeed.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:22 PM
lebron dribbles up the court, passes it to wade.. dude dribbles for a little thinks about attacking sees hibbert than gives it back to lebron.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:27 PM
btw anyone remember that guy that was writing essay after essay saying lebron doesn't take enough shots and disappears in games? lol haters just find anything to pick on.

Sadds The Gr8
06-02-2013, 02:28 PM
LeBron dickriders at their finest. "What was he supposed to do, pass it to a struggling Wade or Bosh?"

I hate Lebron like hell, but what he's doing isn't hero ball...

Joker117
06-02-2013, 02:40 PM
Idk I think dudes just doing all he can to win including flopping though is attitude got him on that T ..(WTF was that I'd melo did that ppl would want his head..)

IversonIsKrazy
06-02-2013, 02:43 PM
I have got to be one of the biggest LEBron haters, but in no ways is LBJ guilty of Hero Ball. Wade is just embarrassed at how crap he is now, so he needs to put the blame on someone else instead of admitting he sucks now. THat's the truth, LBJ is the only reason why MIA is in the ECF.

Redskins10
06-02-2013, 02:45 PM
Wade is literally the worst. I can't stand him, I feel for Lebron.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 02:46 PM
JR has had freedom the handle the ball all year, unfortunately. If you're implying that Melo hinders other peoples game like LeBron does when he plays LeBron Ball, well, then that's just dumb.

No, Bron teams are better with him on the floor than Melo. That's all that matters, what you're getting at is fit. Obviously with two ball dominant players someone has to take a hit in usage, however the whole TEAM benefits. Nobody ever said "LeBron makes Wade better"and any of the on/off numbers, pre big three differentials and **** their entire first year together could tell you that. In regards to Melo playing with "ball dominant" players in Chauncey and AI, they also had an off ball game to speak of. Wade? Not so much.

In any case, Bron has proven that he and Wade can coexist enough to win a chip. So long as Wade's healthy/effective. Wade isn't healthy nor effective, which is even why we're having this discussion, has nothing to do with Bron.


Point is Melo doesn't take away from other peoples games to play his game. He's a scoring SF, not a PG, not a Point-Forward. The selfish thing for him to do would actually be for him to handle the ball more trying to set people up, as that's not his game. He's a finisher, that's his job. He has always let his PGs/perimeter players do their job and has given them ample ball control to not only not affect them but to allow for them to have great years as he draws attention.

So you're trying to tell me that Melo's lack of playmaking, defense, leadership and efficiency in comparison to Bron is a good thing? I don't buy it. There's a reason most Knick fans were saying that if they had Bron instead of Melo, they'd AT LEAST be in the conference finals right now.


Iverson and Billups both had career rejuvenating years when they joined Melo, and JR just had the best regular season of his career.


Career rejuvenating? Lol. Billups got worse and so did AI. I'm getting the feeling that you're alluding to what I was referring to in my earlier response, the TEAMS got better.


The difference between the Knicks-Pacers series and the Heat-Pacers series in this factor is Melo was actually playing with bums. Raymond Felton, as much as I love his heart, is at best a top-20 PG in the NBA. JR Smith is a chucking bum who relies on hot streaks just to shoot 41% in the best season of his career, let alone against this Pacers defense. Iman Shumpert is on his way, but he's a solid offensive player at best. Pablo Prigioni and Tyson Chandler are not scorers in the slightest.


Or that LeBron is just a better player than Melo? :shrug:


This is not remotely the same as keeping the ball away from people like Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, or turning them into spot up role players, no matter how hard you want it to be.


You get touches when you deserve them. Ever wondered why coaches don't let Nick Young shoot 20 times a game? Bosh and especially Wade haven't shown that they deserve more than what they're getting. Take a look at their shot charts man, it's :puke: worthy.


Point is LeBron handles the ball almost much as Melo as a scorer AND dominates the ball as the de-facto PG as well. Overall he handles and controls the ball far more, which would make more sense if he was still playing in Cleveland. You can't take the ball away from ball dominant players and not expect their play to drop off, that's just obvious.


He's taking the ball because he's the only one who's seemingly able to make something happen with the ball. I like Wade and Bosh a good deal amount more than Bron, but last night I genuinely felt sorry for Wade. I've NEVER seen him look so pitiful to the point that he was missing WIDE OPEN LAYUPS.


Wade was averaging 17 PPG and 6 APG on 48% through the first four games. One bad game 5 doesn't mean he deserves his touches to get cut by more than half. Bosh has been turned into Donyell Marshall, he's not even close to being allowed to use his skill set. He has the thankless job of spacing the floor and drawing the center out of the paint so LeBron and Wade have more success driving, meanwhile he takes a beating playing out of position at center.


You should like you have more of a problem with the way that Heat are constructed rather than Bron, your gripe should be with Pat Riley.


If you think LeBron is an unselfish player then you probably believe in the Easter Bunny, as well. The unselfish thing to do would be to control the ball less, play off the ball more and let players like Wade and Bosh use the skills that made them $100M players at the expense of his individual stats. Keep eating up that media hype, you probably think his first flop in his career was the one he just got fined for too.

I never said Bron wasn't unselfish, I'm saying he doesn't generally play heroball.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 02:46 PM
I have got to be one of the biggest LEBron haters, but in no ways is LBJ guilty of Hero Ball. Wade is just embarrassed at how crap he is now, so he needs to put the blame on someone else instead of admitting he sucks now. THat's the truth, LBJ is the only reason why MIA is in the ECF.

i like your list, joey bad kind of fell of my top ten though not feeling him anymore for some reason.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 02:50 PM
LeBron was guilty of not knowing Dwayne Wade would be washed up after 3 years he signed on the deal.

steelcityroller
06-02-2013, 02:58 PM
I just love how for Lebron its "hero ball" but for somebody like Kobe its "ball hogging"

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 03:02 PM
I just love how for Lebron its "hero ball" but for somebody like Kobe its "ball hogging"

Why? Both of them have negative connotations.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 03:03 PM
They're both ballhogs btw.

Slug3
06-02-2013, 03:07 PM
It sad that wade is in denial. At least Bosh maned up and took the blame for his poor play. wade us blaming everything but him for his poor play.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 03:10 PM
I just love how for Lebron its "hero ball" but for somebody like Kobe its "ball hogging"

i think they both mean the same thing, neither are compliments.

NYJ - NYY
06-02-2013, 04:32 PM
This thread is beyond wacko ... Lbj best player all around in ever facet of the game and super reliable and unselfish is getting called a ball hog and hero ball? Ball hog no hero ball as in he's doing whatever he has to, to try and win the game when his super star and star in wade and bosh are playing like bad role players but in no way is lbj doing anything wrong... And I hate him and the heat except my boy wade but I respect lbjs game

amos1er
06-02-2013, 04:37 PM
Lebron is more guilty of statpadding than hero ball.

Hero ball takes a certain kind of mindset that Lebron just doesn't have.

gbrl
06-02-2013, 04:37 PM
im all for wade taking more shots and keeping the ball out of lebrons hands

amos1er
06-02-2013, 04:38 PM
This thread is beyond wacko ... Lbj best player all around in ever facet of the game and super reliable and unselfish is getting called a ball hog and hero ball? Ball hog no hero ball as in he's doing whatever he has to, to try and win the game when his super star and star in wade and bosh are playing like bad role players but in no way is lbj doing anything wrong... And I hate him and the heat except my boy wade but I respect lbjs game

Both your boy Wade and James are two of the leagues biggest floppers. Hard for me to respect that.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 04:38 PM
im all for wade taking more shots and keeping the ball out of lebrons hands

From one flopper to another.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 04:39 PM
my answer to this question: no

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 04:40 PM
Lebron is more guilty of statpadding than hero ball.

Hero ball takes a certain kind of mindset that Lebron just doesn't have.

I'd agree with this.

NYJ - NYY
06-02-2013, 05:02 PM
This thread is beyond wacko ... Lbj best player all around in ever facet of the game and super reliable and unselfish is getting called a ball hog and hero ball? Ball hog no hero ball as in he's doing whatever he has to, to try and win the game when his super star and star in wade and bosh are playing like bad role players but in no way is lbj doing anything wrong... And I hate him and the heat except my boy wade but I respect lbjs game

Both your boy Wade and James are two of the leagues biggest floppers. Hard for me to respect that.

I agree the flopping is terrible they bring down their game by doing it especially trying to do it so much

bucketss
06-02-2013, 05:06 PM
Lebron is more guilty of statpadding than hero ball.

Hero ball takes a certain kind of mindset that Lebron just doesn't have.

a selfish mindset?

amos1er
06-02-2013, 05:12 PM
a selfish mindset?

A different kind of selfish.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 05:13 PM
a selfish mindset?

i think that's what he's getting at...


wade is getting a lot of touches early in the game. his FGAs might be low at times, but a lot of that is a result of him doing nothing with those touches early on and the heat moving on from it. it's clear that what lebron's goal to do early in the game, at least the last 3 times out, is to try to get wade and bosh going. it's just not working.

if wade is going to cry for more touches he needs to actually do something when he does get them. they'll keep feeding him when he shows it's worth it.


and it is also worth noting that he's been extremely passive. he's realized that his deep shot is useless. he's completely eliminated the three point shot from his arsenal. ideally he looks to get to the rim to get easy looks, but he is so terrified of hibbert than he's not driving with the aggression we know he once had...and that's leading to a decrease in FGAs as well.


it has very little to do with lebron, and even if it does, can you blame him? wade is shooting 40% in his last 5 games. he's averaging 13 shots a game this series, and ZERO POINT FIVE free throw attempts. there's your problem.

wade's woes are wade's fault.

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 05:14 PM
a selfish mindset?

a winner's mentality.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 05:15 PM
a winner's mentality.

come on now...

that's so 4 years ago (and never wasn't stupid)

Gagan136
06-02-2013, 05:17 PM
If Lebron does anything less than he has done this series, the Heat would have already lost this series.

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 05:19 PM
come on now...

that's so 4 years ago (and never wasn't stupid)

well thats one man's opinion.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 05:20 PM
come on now...

that's so 4 years ago (and never wasn't stupid)

i agree with the "so four years ago." Though to say that it was stupid is a fallacy. He absolutely did not have "it" yet. The man basically gave up the toward the end of that Orlando series. He since has more than made up for it though.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 05:23 PM
i agree with the "so four years ago." Though to say that it was stupid is a fallacy. He absolutely did not have "it" yet. The man basically gave up the toward the end of that Orlando series. He since has more than made up for it though.

in 2009 against Orlando, he gave up? get out of here.

his 2009 playoffs were arguably the best we've seen in decades. he was sensational. played flawless basketball. we were just better that series. we couldn't miss from three, and his guys shot like 25% from deep. that was when i first became a lebron fan/supporter, because the backlash he got for losing, despite playing essentially perfect individual basketball, was just idiotic.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 05:24 PM
A different kind of selfish.

that mind set can quickly turn into a cancerous one if said player is declining rapidly and refuses to scale back:) IJS

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 05:26 PM
that mind set can quickly turn into a cancerous one if said player is declining rapidly and refuses to scale back:) IJS

It could, good thing kobe is not declining rapidly. In fact he is seemingly improving facets of his game. Weird, when you look at a guy like wade.

RaiderLakersA's
06-02-2013, 05:38 PM
If Lebron does anything less than he has done this series, the Heat would have already lost this series.

Exactly!

I started this thread because it seemed to me that Wade was not so subtly implying that LeBron was trying to do too much, trying to singlehandedly will the team to win. In some corners that equates to "hero ball." I wondered if everyone was hearing what I was hearing? I'm still in shock, to be honest, that Wade would say something like that. Clearly, if LeBron doesn't put his imprint on these games, this series would have been over days ago. Seems to me the other guys on the team need to shut up and step up. Some people just aren't doing their jobs.

knicksfan1969
06-02-2013, 05:44 PM
Melo does it with less talent, bum. LeBron does it with more ....

Lake_Show2416
06-02-2013, 05:48 PM
hero ball? im not the biggest fan of Lebron but he's getting hardly any help from Bosh & Wade so i think Lebron doesnt have a choice

bucketss
06-02-2013, 05:48 PM
Melo does it with less talent, bum. LeBron does it with more ....

melo hero ball = 12 for 30 + couple clutch shots, 0 assit, and most likely a L

bron hero ball = 40 points, 10 ast, 6 rebounds,

Kashmir13579
06-02-2013, 05:51 PM
No.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 06:02 PM
in 2009 against Orlando, he gave up? get out of here.

his 2009 playoffs were arguably the best we've seen in decades. he was sensational. played flawless basketball. we were just better that series. we couldn't miss from three, and his guys shot like 25% from deep. that was when i first became a lebron fan/supporter, because the backlash he got for losing, despite playing essentially perfect individual basketball, was just idiotic.

okay lets make things up... what really happened was he exploded game one and then preceeded to drop off every game.

game 2: 12-23 but 6 to's
game 3: 11-28
Game 4: 13-29
game 5: 11-28 (1-8 from three....)
Game 6: 8-20

SUPER AWESOME PLAY MAN.... the team was built around him. He plays better... then the rest of the players play better. We all know it starts with and ends with him.

naps
06-02-2013, 06:03 PM
Not surprised to see this thread coming from a Lakers fan. Long have they been trying to find out who acts selfish since they are tired of hearing about their own. Wade is my favorite player of all-time but I think both of Wade and Bosh should be embarrassed of how they are playing. LeBron has been carrying this team pretty much by himself this post-season.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 06:04 PM
melo hero ball = 12 for 30 + couple clutch shots, 0 assit, and most likely a L

bron hero ball = 40 points, 10 ast, 6 rebounds,

Oh please. lol

Give the best case and worse case scenarios why don't you.

nba pundit
06-02-2013, 06:15 PM
okay lets make things up... what really happened was he exploded game one and then preceeded to drop off every game.

game 2: 12-23 but 6 to's
game 3: 11-28
Game 4: 13-29
game 5: 11-28 (1-8 from three....)
Game 6: 8-20

SUPER AWESOME PLAY MAN.... the team was built around him. He plays better... then the rest of the players play better. We all know it starts with and ends with him.

i like how you only noted fg% and then other negative stats from the games. he averaged 38.5 points per game, 8 assists, 8.3 rebounds that series. only an ignoramus would say he quit during that series. he absolutely carried that team.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 06:23 PM
okay lets make things up... what really happened was he exploded game one and then preceeded to drop off every game.

game 2: 12-23 but 6 to's
game 3: 11-28
Game 4: 13-29
game 5: 11-28 (1-8 from three....)
Game 6: 8-20

SUPER AWESOME PLAY MAN.... the team was built around him. He plays better... then the rest of the players play better. We all know it starts with and ends with him.

he didn't keep the shooting up, for sure. he still had a tremendous series. not sure if you watched it; he was doing everything. not tremendous FG% for his current standards, for sure, but he made up for it at the FT line and with, rebounding, passing, defense...you know,things that matter but you're willingly omitting. there's really only one poor shooting game there.

those playoffs:

35.3 points (more than any current player EVER), 9.1 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 51% shooting, 33% from three
PER of 37.4 (second best EVER)
.399 WS/48 (best EVER)


you will never see a player put up those numbers in a 3-round playoff run EVER again. I say that with relative comfort.


i was the best individual playoff performance I've seen in maybe 2 decades now...and back then i couldn't remember it if i was watching.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 06:26 PM
i like how you only noted fg% and then other negative stats from the games. he averaged 38.5 points per game, 8 assists, 8.3 rebounds that series. only an ignoramus would say he quit during that series. he absolutely carried that team.

Because that is all that needed to be noted ... he shoots true to form and what happens? THEY WIN. He shot terribly and they lost....

that series was on him... he shouldnt have shot like that on a team with absolutely no elite defenders sans Howard. he absolutely quit that last game .... if any player does that in the final game of a series its over. Kobe still gets flack for shooting terribly in a deciding game that they WON. Lebron is not immune from this criticism. like i said he has changed this but the coddling must stop.

Sandman
06-02-2013, 06:27 PM
okay lets make things up... what really happened was he exploded game one and then preceeded to drop off every game.

game 2: 12-23 but 6 to's
game 3: 11-28
Game 4: 13-29
game 5: 11-28 (1-8 from three....)
Game 6: 8-20

SUPER AWESOME PLAY MAN.... the team was built around him. He plays better... then the rest of the players play better. We all know it starts with and ends with him.

Howard has always been the kryptonite. Clog the lane and make LeBron shoot, he's not a good shooter. He did hit a jump shot from like half court at the buzzer one of those games, but the more 3s LeBron shoots the more he will lose out in the long run. Like somebody else said though, good job overlooking everything else.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 06:29 PM
Back on topic though... this is not hero ball. Schematically making bosh a mere role player and wade being hurt are killing them and Lebron's doing everything in his power to win.

Big Zo
06-02-2013, 06:31 PM
Nope. The two ghosts need to come back to life. Battier, and Allen need to wake the **** up, too.

Sandman
06-02-2013, 06:31 PM
melo hero ball = 12 for 30 + couple clutch shots, 0 assit, and most likely a L

bron hero ball = 40 points, 10 ast, 6 rebounds,
What series are you watching? LeBron hasn't come close to those numbers yet. In the last Pacer game Melo was 15-29 with 39 points, 8 reb and 2 acts.

BigCityofDreams
06-02-2013, 06:34 PM
isn't this exactly what laker fans say about kobe??

This isn't about the Lakers. It's about the struggles of the Heat.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Howard has always been the kryptonite. Clog the lane and make LeBron shoot, he's not a good shooter. He did hit a jump shot from like half court at the buzzer one of those games, but the more 3s LeBron shoots the more he will lose out in the long run. Like somebody else said though, good job overlooking everything else.

thats the thing though he did the other stuff.... he DIDNT do this. if he adjusted accordingly then they couldve won. take lebrons terrible 3pt% out of the way in which he shot 28% maybe they win.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Because that is all that needed to be noted ... he shoots true to form and what happens? THEY WIN. He shot terribly and they lost....

that series was on him... he shouldnt have shot like that on a team with absolutely no elite defenders sans Howard. he absolutely quit that last game .... if any player does that in the final game of a series its over. Kobe still gets flack for shooting terribly in a deciding game that they WON. Lebron is not immune from this criticism. like i said he has changed this but the coddling must stop.

i'm getting the impression you didn't watch any of that series :laugh: even compared to what happening this year, i've never seen a team rely on one player as much as they relied on lebron that year. it was worse, IMO, than years before (when he arguably wasn't ready to win) and the year after.

no one else on that team had a PER of 15 that playoffs. 15 being the quasi "league-average" number


look at the 3 point shooting numbers for the rest of the guys. they couldn't hit ANYTHING.

meanwhile, we were dropping 100+ points with ease because we couldn't MISS.

varajao averaged 8 points a game that series on 7 shots. he only grabbed 5 rebounds in 30 minutes.
delonte shot 31% from three. he scored 14.5 points a game on 13 shots.
mo williams scored 18 points on 16 shots that series.

after those three amazing weapons (:laugh2:) they had nothing. Z was a shell of himself and was abused by howard. joe smith was, well, joe smith. ben wallace was a scrub who hardly played 10 minutes a game. wally, pavlovic and gibson couldn't throw the ball into the ocean that year.


again, this is precisely when i became a lebron defender. he had NOTHING around him.

there are times when losses are on him, like 2010 (though, again, what did he have?) and 2011 (definitely).

2009 was not one of those.


and most of those threes he took came late in games when he was desperately trying to catch up. he shot poorly from three (30%), but that's the ONLY THING HE DIDN'T DO AT A GOD LEVEL. if all you have is "he didn't shoot the three well", then, well...you do a poor job of gauging basketball performances.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 06:43 PM
i'm getting the impression you didn't watch any of that series :laugh: even compared to what happening this year, i've never seen a team rely on one player as much as they relied on lebron that year. it was worse, IMO, than years before (when he arguably wasn't ready to win) and the year after.

no one else on that team had a PER of 15 that playoffs. 15 being the quasi "league-average" number


look at the 3 point shooting numbers for the rest of the guys. they couldn't hit ANYTHING.

meanwhile, we were dropping 100+ points with ease because we couldn't MISS.

varajao averaged 8 points a game that series on 7 shots. he only grabbed 5 rebounds in 30 minutes.
delonte shot 31% from three. he scored 14.5 points a game on 13 shots.
mo williams scored 18 points on 16 shots that series.

after those three amazing weapons (:laugh2:) they had nothing. Z was a shell of himself and was abused by howard. joe smith was, well, joe smith. ben wallace was a scrub who hardly played 10 minutes a game. wally, pavlovic and gibson couldn't throw the ball into the ocean that year.


again, this is precisely when i became a lebron defender. he had NOTHING around him.

there are times when losses are on him, like 2010 (though, again, what did he have?) and 2011 (definitely).

2009 was not one of those.


and most of those threes he took came late in games when he was desperately trying to catch up

so what youre saying is that DH12 did his job as a superstar and Lebron did not. he is the defensive cog just as Howard was. the team was built around him....him shooting threes down or not will not bring them back. compare the rest of his playoffs till game one to the final five games... they are not the same. The same team that rolled through regular seasons does not just disappear. Lebrons play dropped and so did his teammates... they go together.

Chronz
06-02-2013, 06:48 PM
You should never argue with someone who blames Bron for the Orlando series.

That series was lost on the defensive side of the ball. Bron can't guard everyone AND help on Dwight. Dwight has never looked that dominant, an injured Ben Wallace and Big Z made him look like Shaq.

steelcityroller
06-02-2013, 06:53 PM
i think they both mean the same thing, neither are compliments.


Why? Both of them have negative connotations.

They are different and both are taken differently by fans.

When fans here Hero Ball many will think that he is simply trying to do too much whereas when you hear that somebody is a Ball Hog they simply want all the recognition, attention and are selfish and greedy.

They both can be seen the same way but Ball Hog traditionally has a more negative perception attached to it.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 06:57 PM
so what youre saying is that DH12 did his job as a superstar and Lebron did not. he is the defensive cog just as Howard was. the team was built around him....him shooting threes down or not will not bring them back. compare the rest of his playoffs till game one to the final five games... they are not the same. The same team that rolled through regular seasons does not just disappear. Lebrons play dropped and so did his teammates... they go together.

not at all. lebron did his job, the rest of his team didn't. his play was still historic, even though he "only" shot 48% that series..and 30% from three.

you're problem is all you see is LEBRON vs. DWIGHT. you're failing to realize there are 10 players on the court at once. even so, lebron was better than dwight that series, though both were tremendous.

the other problem is that you're expecting him to play flawless basketball...basketball that basically no one is capable of playing consistently. 38.5 points, 8 assists and 8 rebounds on 49% shooting wasn't good enough for you. he needed to be better than that! it's all his fault for not being better :laugh2:

who has EVER been better than that :laugh2:



dwight did his job too...no one on cleveland could stop him. and this was when he wasn't great offensively. they had nothing to combat it...much like this Indy series, but WAY worse because howard was beasting offensively.

DH's supporting cast was just phenomenal, as was he, and that was the difference. we scored 107, 99, 116 and 103 points in our wins. we shot 45%, 35%, 45% and 41% from three in those wins. we were "live and die by the three" and never during the dwight era did we ever shoot the ball that well.

the cavs in those 4 games, NOT including lebron: 5-19 from three, 4-18 (this is the game he shot 1-8 from three, his teammates shot 4-18, but that's OK with you i guess), 2-12, 7-12 (the one decent game)

these games were decided on the three point line, and more importantly DEFENSIVELY. the gap between how we shot and how they shot was ridiculous. the gap between out defense and theirs was outrageous.

we consistently had the 3nd, 4rd and often 5th best players on the court.

lewis went 18-6 on 49% shooting and 48% shooting from three. he needed 11.8 shots to get those 18.3 points.
hedo shot 39% from three, and went 17-6-6
pietrus shot 47% from three and thoroughly outplayed mo williams.

those three guys WAXED cleveland's 2nd, 3rd and 4th options. it was murder.

ramsizzle
06-02-2013, 07:00 PM
You should never argue with someone who blames Bron for the Orlando series.

That series was lost on the defensive side of the ball. Bron can't guard everyone AND help on Dwight. Dwight has never looked that dominant, an injured Ben Wallace and Big Z made him look like Shaq.

The Cavs were the better team, better record, ran through the regular season and playoffs... Dwight cant play every position either.... though he took a team without even an average defender and won. Lebron on the offensive end was good, defensive end eh. He SHOULD be great on both ends right? he wasnt and that series should fall on him.

Riodagoat
06-02-2013, 07:05 PM
So if he doesn't take over games by shooting the ball himself, he's either a choker or scared.
When he's playing a typical 25-7-7 game, he's considered a stat-padder.
But if he is taking all the shots to try and will his team to win when no one else is helping him, he's a bonafide hero ball chucker.

Seriously, do people EVER run out of things to complain about Lebron? I'm just amazed to watch how much he has grown as a player over the past 3 years and yet people are still finding ways to hate on this dude.

You guys are better off making fun of his hairline. At least with that one, you have credibility.

ChicagoJ
06-02-2013, 07:07 PM
I wouldn't blame lebron for much. His teamates and the pacers defense is to blame for the issues the heat are having right now.

SteBO
06-02-2013, 07:09 PM
Well if Wade and Rupaul are gonna shoot 30% and under 10 pts every game then wtf is Lebron supposed to do?
Honestly, it's as simple as this.....I'm going to remain consistent with my comments regarding Carmelo after the Knicks got bounced. All the guys surrounding LeBron up until this series have been pretty damn good. Battier, Ray, Wade, and Bosh have all been flat out "SCRUBS"....there's no other way to phrase it.

LBJackpot
06-02-2013, 07:11 PM
so what youre saying is that DH12 did his job as a superstar and Lebron did not. he is the defensive cog just as Howard was. the team was built around him....him shooting threes down or not will not bring them back. compare the rest of his playoffs till game one to the final five games... they are not the same. The same team that rolled through regular seasons does not just disappear. Lebrons play dropped and so did his teammates... they go together.

On what planet is 38 8 8 not doing your job as a superstar? If he was blamed for that series, he would be burnt at the stake for the 2011 finals.

ManRam
06-02-2013, 07:12 PM
So if he doesn't take over games by shooting the ball himself, he's either a choker or scared.
When he's playing a typical 25-7-7 game, he's considered a stat-padder.
But if he is taking all the shots to try and will his team to win when no one else is helping him, he's a bonafide hero ball chucker.

Seriously, do people EVER run out of things to complain about Lebron? I'm just amazed to watch how much he has grown as a player over the past 3 years and yet people are still finding ways to hate on this dude.

You guys are better off making fun of his hairline. At least with that one, you have credibility.

i think you nailed it here.


we'll always find a way to bash him.

he goes 38-8-8 in a series and his poor three point shooting doomed him (with no regard to everyone else's)
he looks for his shot because others aren't scoring and he's playing "hero ball" (with no regard to the fact that he's still passing the ball at a high rate)
he looks to set others up and is a willing passer then he's a coward with no will to win.
he has a good thing and does it all and he is, like you said, just padding stats.

people won't ever run out of things to say. people who like to do this and make these arguments are seeking for things to justify their ridiculous beliefs, rather than actually objectively observing things and forming fair beliefs from it

mngopher35
06-02-2013, 07:14 PM
The Cavs were the better team, better record, ran through the regular season and playoffs... Dwight cant play every position either.... though he took a team without even an average defender and won. Lebron on the offensive end was good, defensive end eh. He SHOULD be great on both ends right? he wasnt and that series should fall on him.

Do you always blame the best player on the team when their team loses, no matter what? That is pretty much the only way I can see someone blaming him for that series. He was playing out of this world, the magic as a TEAM just played better.

blastmasta26
06-02-2013, 07:14 PM
:laugh: It is not at all LeBron's fault that the Cavs lost that series.

IKnowHoops
06-02-2013, 07:18 PM
Dwyane Wade
Average touches per game for the series entering Saturday - 53
Touches he had in game 6 with a chance to end the series - 25

Chris Bosh
Average touches per game for the series entering Saturday - 27.6
Touches he had in game 6 with a chance to end the series - 19


Source: Elias Sports Bureau

No hero ball going on... nope.

Wade is averaging 12 points on 32 percent shooting in his last three games, Bosh just 6.3 points on 24 percent shooting in that same span.

Dude when you shoot badly, you start to shoot less because you loose confidence and you hurt your team shooting many times at so low a percentage. Get real.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 07:29 PM
Wade is averaging 12 points on 32 percent shooting in his last three games, Bosh just 6.3 points on 24 percent shooting in that same span.

Dude when you shoot badly, you start to shoot less because you loose confidence and you hurt your team shooting many times at so low a percentage. Get real.

one poster said, lebron haters never use logic and 99% of their arguments make no sense, gotta agree with him.

Sandman
06-02-2013, 07:38 PM
thats the thing though he did the other stuff.... he DIDNT do this. if he adjusted accordingly then they couldve won. take lebrons terrible 3pt% out of the way in which he shot 28% maybe they win.

this is what I hate about the hero ball crap, same goes for Carmelo. Basketball does not occur in a vacuum.

LeBron shooting 3s is the end result of a game plan that left the Cavs with nothing else to do. He can't do EVERYTHING, but at that point it was also clear what was happening if he tried to do less. His teammates couldn't do any better.

People pick on Melo for the same garbage, say he's inefficient blah blah blah hogs the ball takes too many shots. The bottom line is, Melo could take fewer shots, but there isn't enough offense on the Knicks. Youre forcing a shot from Felton or somebody else instead. Novak shoots 48% from 3 but if you give him the ball when he's not open he will get jacked in 1/2 a second. Just because he's more efficient doesn't mean you can just take numbers out of context.

Bosh Wade LeBron all these guys scored 25ppg before they joined up together. All of their numbers went down, all of them posted their highest career FG% this season.

The same happened when Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG joined together.

Does this mean that stars need to shoot less or that hero ball is detrimental to the team? That's not the conclusion I draw here. More offensive talent, more options = fewer forced shots. Shot selection improves significantly when the offense has more than 1 trick.

b@llhog24
06-02-2013, 07:41 PM
They are different and both are taken differently by fans.

When fans here Hero Ball many will think that he is simply trying to do too much whereas when you hear that somebody is a Ball Hog they simply want all the recognition, attention and are selfish and greedy.

They both can be seen the same way but Ball Hog traditionally has a more negative perception attached to it.

I agree that they aren't the same, but doing "too much" is seen as a negative thing. Anybody who handles the ball a tremendous amount is by literal definition a "ball hog." However, I wouldn't say that Bron plays hero ball.

LBJackpot
06-02-2013, 07:48 PM
So if he doesn't take over games by shooting the ball himself, he's either a choker or scared.
When he's playing a typical 25-7-7 game, he's considered a stat-padder.
But if he is taking all the shots to try and will his team to win when no one else is helping him, he's a bonafide hero ball chucker.

Seriously, do people EVER run out of things to complain about Lebron? I'm just amazed to watch how much he has grown as a player over the past 3 years and yet people are still finding ways to hate on this dude.

You guys are better off making fun of his hairline. At least with that one, you have credibility.

This is exactly what happens. Somehow LeBron can be a ballhog and a scared soft player at the same time. Also the Heat are soft floppers, but they are also dirty and physical. The fact is people just really really really want LeBron and the Heat to fail. If Heat lose, they will find ridiculous reasons to blame LeBron no matter what. If they win, Heat are just a stacked superteam. People will just bring up how good Wade and Bosh used to be and act like thats their current play.

zn23
06-02-2013, 08:02 PM
Because that is all that needed to be noted ... he shoots true to form and what happens? THEY WIN. He shot terribly and they lost....

that series was on him... he shouldnt have shot like that on a team with absolutely no elite defenders sans Howard. he absolutely quit that last game .... if any player does that in the final game of a series its over. Kobe still gets flack for shooting terribly in a deciding game that they WON. Lebron is not immune from this criticism. like i said he has changed this but the coddling must stop.

Well Kobe did go 6/24.... That's like REALLY bad.

naps
06-02-2013, 08:15 PM
I kindof like the strategy of giving Wade and Bosh only 10 shots each. If they win, Lebron did it singlehandedly. If they lose Lebron couldn't let them have more shots because they didn't deserve it.

So when you make only 25% or less what are you supposed to get? 20 shots a game? Well, I can't really blame you. Watching Kobe play that way for his entire life would make you feel like this "It doesn't matter how many you miss, just keep shooting!" LMFAO!

Purple_n_Gold
06-02-2013, 08:19 PM
LeBron and Nash are probably the two players who you should never blame for hero ball. Wade just needs an excuse. He's the whiniest player in NBA and needs to man up and start playing like he's a top player. No doubt, James will leave after this year win or lose. Wade is just trash.
I just have one question will your heat avatar remain the same when James leaves as you suggest he will?

Chronz
06-02-2013, 09:15 PM
The Cavs were the better team, better record, ran through the regular season and playoffs... Dwight cant play every position either.... though he took a team without even an average defender and won. Lebron on the offensive end was good, defensive end eh. He SHOULD be great on both ends right? he wasnt and that series should fall on him.
I already know how this argument gos, I say he had the better regular season team, you say he was the reason that team didn't sustain their level of play (even tho the Cavs offense isnt the story we should be focusing on), but Im really curious why you think he didn't do his job defensively. From my point of view, Bron was simply doing WHATEVER Brown asked of him, trying all sorts of matchups/schemes.

Seemed like Orlando tried to avoid the side Bron was on as much as possible to me.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2013, 01:18 AM
Lebron can play hero ball all the Lakers next year with a big man not soft like tissue paper and a one winged wing man. I can see it now!

xRipCity
06-03-2013, 11:07 AM
I'd never thought I'd live to see the day when LeBron, Mr. Unselfish, Captain It's All About the Team, Chief Assist Daddy Supreme, Doctor "Dude You Take the Last Shot", etc., etc., would ever be accused of hero ball, but then I read this ESPN quote:


D. Wade:

"We've got guys individually who want to play better," Wade said. "But we've got to try to help each other out in this locker room and not leave it up to the individual to self-will it."

L. James:

"I mean, we can state the obvious; they're both struggling," James said of Wade and Bosh. "When you're struggling, the best thing to get is a layup or a dunk. [Wade] missed a couple of them ... Chris is struggling with his shot and him hurting his ankle didn't help."


Who is right? Is LeBron really trying to do too much? Is he really behaving like a selfish player and causing the team chemistry to go off the tracks in MIA? Or is he just doing what he's supposed to do when he's the only healthy productive option on the team? Discuss.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9333733/2013-nba-playoffs-dwyane-wade-says-chris-bosh-need-bigger-role

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LeBron had more assists in this series then Kobe has had in his playoff career gtfo

RaiderLakersA's
06-03-2013, 11:45 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LeBron had more assists in this series then Kobe has had in his playoff career gtfo

This thread isn't about Kobe or the Lakers. This is about Wade suggesting that LeBron might be playing a little hero ball. I wanted to know if everyone else agreed that was a ludicrous claim to levy at LeBron, considering how consistently well LBJ has played this series.

There were intelligent replies on both sides of the issue, but there were also a few that missed the point of the thread entirely. I think we can let Wade off the hook and excuse his comment as a "post heat of battle" off-color remark that should be forgiven, if not ignored. I'm not sure what excuse we use for the PSDers who couldn't stay on topic, or saw this as something other than a legitimate thread-worthy topic just because a fan of some other team posted it.

JordansBulls
06-03-2013, 12:14 PM
Wouldn't say hero ball, would say his style of play is not condusive to work well with other superstars. His style of play fits more with role players than superstars. Superstars need the rock in there hands from time to time, but with how he plays it makes guys like Wade and Bosh more ineffective. When Lebron is out both Wade and Bosh flourish.

LeperMessiah
06-03-2013, 12:38 PM
This hero has a 52% life time shooting percentage in basketball.

Sandman
06-03-2013, 12:42 PM
This hero has a 52% life time shooting percentage in basketball.
Thats his lifetime FG% including dunks

I would love to see his shooting percentage when Howard/Hibbert/Bulls/Celtics clog driving lanes

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:07 PM
I'm not LeBron fan. But he's never been a hero ball player. Him dominating the ball is their best option against the Pacers.

ewmania
06-03-2013, 01:25 PM
i mean if this was melo or kobe thats exactly what people would be doing, blaming them for hero ball

so why not lebron. Oh i forgot he can't do any wrong

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:48 PM
You could argue that LeBron has the ball in his hands too much. Instead of waiting for the PG to give him the ball LeBron often decides who gets the ball. In addition to him shooting 20 shots a game.

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:49 PM
I'm not LeBron fan. But he's never been a hero ball player. Him dominating the ball is their best option against the Pacers.

When you shoot well over 50% you don't get the hero ball bashing. Deal with it. It is what it is.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 01:52 PM
Yeah Lebron can do no wrong. That's why everyone in this forums has a new complaint about him every other week. So far this is what I've heard about Lebron.

1. He doesn't actually make his team better.
2. He's not a very good leader.
3. He has a mediocre post game.
4. He's got a bad jumper.
5. He's not clutch.
6. Not enough rings.
7. Flops.
8. Gets fouls handed to him.
9. Can't shoot free throws.

I swear according to 50% of this forum Lebron is the worst player in the NBA. You guys basically say "yeah he's good, but he's not really good at anything". People wouldn't like LBJ so much if it wasn't for the ridiculous comments made on this site. There's about 10 people on this site who have started rooting for Lebron in the last couple of months because they're tired of hearing everyone in this forum trying to find something wrong with his game. Because most of the people that are trying, sound desperate.

bucketss
06-03-2013, 01:57 PM
Thats his lifetime FG% including dunks

I would love to see his shooting percentage when Howard/Hibbert/Bulls/Celtics clog driving lanes

dwight - 48%
hibbert - 50%
noah - 50%
Kg - 46%

KniCks4LiFe
06-03-2013, 02:04 PM
if anything he's not playing enough hero ball.

ghettosean
06-03-2013, 02:16 PM
Yeah Lebron can do no wrong. That's why everyone in this forums has a new complaint about him every other week. So far this is what I've heard about Lebron.

1. He doesn't actually make his team better.
2. He's not a very good leader.
3. He has a mediocre post game.
4. He's got a bad jumper.
5. He's not clutch.
6. Not enough rings.
7. Flops.
8. Gets fouls handed to him.
9. Can't shoot free throws.

I swear according to 50% of this forum Lebron is the worst player in the NBA. You guys basically say "yeah he's good, but he's not really good at anything". People wouldn't like LBJ so much if it wasn't for the ridiculous comments made on this site. There's about 10 people on this site who have started rooting for Lebron in the last couple of months because they're tired of hearing everyone in this forum trying to find something wrong with his game. Because most of the people that are trying, sound desperate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwQoGsv_eFE (Famous wink flop)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBgiPM1QwZQ&feature=player_embedded (Last game Lebron played)

Sandman
06-03-2013, 02:17 PM
dwight - 48%
hibbert - 50%
noah - 50%
Kg - 46%

All honesty that 3-5% right there is the difference in all of those playoff losses from the Spurs all the way up to the Mavericks. Get the guy some post help for once. Just because they took one home last year doesn't mean the team is without flaws.

Burgo
06-03-2013, 02:19 PM
if anything he's not playing enough hero ball.

+1. Given the current form of his fellow stars, I'd be recommending he takes more shots.

When his team isn't performing as a whole, what else is he supposed to do?

Definitely not a fan of LBJ myself, but have no problem defending him here.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 02:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwQoGsv_eFE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz73xgDrd8o

Everyone flops bro. Welcome to the NBA without hand checking.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 02:23 PM
All honesty that 3-5% right there is the difference in all of those playoff losses from the Spurs all the way up to the Mavericks. Get the guy some post help for once. Just because they took one home last year doesn't mean the team is without flaws.

I don't think anyone denies Heats obvious flaws. The problem is that there's not enough big men in the NBA to exploit it.

They're not very good at rebounding, and they are very small on the interior. No one denies that.

ghettosean
06-03-2013, 02:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz73xgDrd8o

Everyone flops bro. Welcome to the NBA without hand checking.


I agree the NBA is super soft now compared to the old days but just pointing out that a lot of the things you mentioned are not that far fetched (some are but there are a good portion of them that are valid to me). Also I don't want to insinuate that Lebron is not the best player in the league he is definately the most talented but when it comes to some of the critera you posted I'd say some are very valid (some are exagerated also)... Just thought I'd point out one of the things I thought was a valid point about Lebron. I'd also say he's a bigger offender on flops between him and Kobe if we had to put numbers on it.

Last point there are some players that are tough as nails and I'd be shocked to see a Marc Gasol or Randolph flop any tough players like this just don't do it... It's not in there blood.

Sandman
06-03-2013, 02:35 PM
I don't think anyone denies Heats obvious flaws. The problem is that there's not enough big men in the NBA to exploit it.

They're not very good at rebounding, and they are very small on the interior. No one denies that.
Nobody denies it but nobody acknowledges it either. Instead you get "LeBron is playing hero ball", "LeBron can't win the big one".

Make LeBron shoot and percentages will work in your favor. He has a good record because he can run into the lane and dunk at will vs. 90% of the league. The two players he got to "compliment him" have the same Achilles heal.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 02:40 PM
I agree the NBA is super soft now compared to the old days but just pointing out that a lot of the things you mentioned are not that far fetched (some are but there are a good portion of them that are valid to me). Also I don't want to insinuate that Lebron is not the best player in the league he is definately the most talented but when it comes to some of the critera you posted I'd say some are very valid (some are exagerated also)... Just thought I'd point out one of the things I thought was a valid point about Lebron. I'd also say he's a bigger offender on flops between him and Kobe if we had to put numbers on it.

Last point there are some players that are tough as nails and I'd be shocked to see a Marc Gasol or Randolph flop any tough players like this just don't do it... It's not in there blood.

It's the officiating that has to be blamed not the players IMO. It's like when Kevin Durant came into the league... Now don't get me wrong I love KD, but when he started coming into the league he'd do that stupid flail when someone was guarding him, and he'd get 2 shots. It started out just KD would do it. Then you saw Kobe start. Then Wade. You can't blame em. If they're gonna call it, and other players are going to take advantage of it while you don't. You're at an automatic disadvantage every game.

League just needs to buckle down. Needs to be a review able penalty. If you flop, and you're caught team gets 1 free thrown, and retains possession. No fan likes flopping. Even when it works to their advantage.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 02:43 PM
I'd agree that Kobe doesn't flop as much as LBJ, but Kobe also gets the benefit of a lot more calls than LBJ IMO. I'm not trying to rag or promote either of them, I'm just saying I understand why players do it. If it's going to get called against you enough times you're going to start doing it.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 02:44 PM
Nobody denies it but nobody acknowledges it either. Instead you get "LeBron is playing hero ball", "LeBron can't win the big one".

Make LeBron shoot and percentages will work in your favor. He has a good record because he can run into the lane and dunk at will vs. 90% of the league. The two players he got to "compliment him" have the same Achilles heal.

I agree. We all knew this could eventually happen against a team with a good center, but like I said in a previous thread Hibbert looks more focused than he has at any point in his entire career. He's really making himself look like an elite center in this playoff in a league that doesn't have an elite center.

bucketss
06-03-2013, 02:58 PM
I agree the NBA is super soft now compared to the old days but just pointing out that a lot of the things you mentioned are not that far fetched (some are but there are a good portion of them that are valid to me). Also I don't want to insinuate that Lebron is not the best player in the league he is definately the most talented but when it comes to some of the critera you posted I'd say some are very valid (some are exagerated also)... Just thought I'd point out one of the things I thought was a valid point about Lebron. I'd also say he's a bigger offender on flops between him and Kobe if we had to put numbers on it.

Last point there are some players that are tough as nails and I'd be shocked to see a Marc Gasol or Randolph flop any tough players like this just don't do it... It's not in there blood.

reggie evans says hi, also heres marc flopping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9DRQRkRq1Q

ghettosean
06-03-2013, 03:02 PM
It's the officiating that has to be blamed not the players IMO. It's like when Kevin Durant came into the league... Now don't get me wrong I love KD, but when he started coming into the league he'd do that stupid flail when someone was guarding him, and he'd get 2 shots. It started out just KD would do it. Then you saw Kobe start. Then Wade. You can't blame em. If they're gonna call it, and other players are going to take advantage of it while you don't. You're at an automatic disadvantage every game.

League just needs to buckle down. Needs to be a review able penalty. If you flop, and you're caught team gets 1 free thrown, and retains possession. No fan likes flopping. Even when it works to their advantage.

I agree with the bolded 100%

There needs to be more action taken on flopping... I'd even like to see suspensions if it happens a certain amount of times in a season or post season.

The league definately needs to do something about this that's for sure.

LeperMessiah
06-03-2013, 03:07 PM
Thats his lifetime FG% including dunks

I would love to see his shooting percentage when Howard/Hibbert/Bulls/Celtics clog driving lanes

But not all.

ghettosean
06-03-2013, 03:07 PM
reggie evans says hi, also heres marc flopping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9DRQRkRq1Q

Reggie is one of the dirtest players in the league and threw an elbow at Gasol... He over exagerated with the arms but I wouldn't consider that a flop.

Here's a review of how dirty Reggie Evans is grabbing Kamans balls during a game --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv1cBN8M-9I

Sinestro
06-03-2013, 03:11 PM
Like other super star players in the league, if your teammates' shots aren't falling you need to shoot more. Even if I don't like LeBron he's doing what he has to.

ghettosean
06-03-2013, 03:12 PM
Like other super star players in the league, if your teammates' shots aren't falling you need to shoot more. Even if I don't like LeBron he's doing what he has to.

I don't like Lebron at all but I agree with this.

Stinkyoutsider
06-03-2013, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure whether Lebron is completely guilty this year?

Handling the ball and distributing has always been a part of his game but I think he has to keep the ball more and make plays for himself because Wade isn't healthy and Bosh is out of rhythm right now. So if he's also not getting the production from the spot up shooters like Ray Allen, then he has to play hero ball if he wants to win.

I think in the past he's played hero ball though. Lebron already has the ball in his hands and if he gets even a hint from his teammates, he'll take over and play hero ball. The thing is, Lebron will generally look to move the ball instead of taking a bad percentage shot. Different for Kobe though. Kobe doesn't care about the percentages, he'll put up the shot because he has the confidence to make it anyway...

jerellh528
06-03-2013, 03:52 PM
Lebron should shoot more. That's what he is supposed to do as the best player on the team when his teammates are stinking it up.

b@llhog24
06-03-2013, 06:10 PM
I agree the NBA is super soft now compared to the old days but just pointing out that a lot of the things you mentioned are not that far fetched (some are but there are a good portion of them that are valid to me). Also I don't want to insinuate that Lebron is not the best player in the league he is definately the most talented but when it comes to some of the critera you posted I'd say some are very valid (some are exagerated also)... Just thought I'd point out one of the things I thought was a valid point about Lebron. I'd also say he's a bigger offender on flops between him and Kobe if we had to put numbers on it.

Last point there are some players that are tough as nails and I'd be shocked to see a Marc Gasol or Randolph flop any tough players like this just don't do it... It's not in there blood.

Lol. Marc is a flopper, obviously not to the magnitude of his brother Pau but he does it. Zbo can't flop cause he's too fat.

ThaDubs
06-03-2013, 07:52 PM
LeBron does not play hero ball unless the 2nd and 3rd option are struggling and that's exactly what's happening.

ThaDubs
06-03-2013, 07:58 PM
Lebron should shoot more. That's what he is supposed to do as the best player on the team when his teammates are stinking it up.

Don't try to justify what Kobe does.

JLynn943
06-03-2013, 08:09 PM
Playing with a team of people who can't hit a shot =/= hero ball