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View Full Version : Foul on who? or play on?



JC_
06-02-2013, 04:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRveNUizHFI

This is the play where Lebron got called for an offensive foul while driving hard with Hibbert defending. A few things to pay attention to: Hibbert is in the restricted area and he jumps straight up. Lebron gathers the ball before Hibbert is set but either way he's in the restricted area.

from the rulebook:

"An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul."


What's your opinion? Foul on Lebron or Hibbert or should the refs let them play because the contact was in the restricted area?


edit: After watching a few more times I noticed that Hibbert arms aren't straight up. It looks as if he's trying to give a foul; his arms are on an angle towards Lebron but get moved out of the way when Lebron lifts his own arms to try and shoot.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 05:11 AM
Tough call, Hibbert was in the restricted area and his hands weren't straight up. The contact did come in the air though, so being in the restricted area shouldn't have been the determining factor since he wasn't trying to take a charge on the ground. His hands were at an angle, but he did jump straight up and it could be argued that Lebron initiated the contact and nearly rode him in air lol. Offensive foul??? Probly not. Should have been a no call really, but there was contact on both parties. Perhaps the infamous double foul??? Not sure. If anything, it should have been a foul on Hibbert, but the way in which Lebron kicked his legs out and rode him in air wasn't really in his favor. Really a tough call. Honestly, I would lean more towards a foul on Hibbert than Lebron in that situation if I had to call a foul one way or the other. Really, a double foul would be the best call, but since those are so rarely called, the next best thing would have been a no call. Next best after that, a foul on Hibbert. The offensive foul on Lebron really surprised me, I won't lie. Though his reaction was hilarious. Reminded me of Rasheed for a moment. lol

tmacsc2
06-02-2013, 05:23 AM
Should have been a no call, lebron brought his legs up to Hibberts waist and because of the battier thing kneeing hibbert in the crotch so I think that's why they called lebron for the foul. I say no call tho just play it out.

Edit: not a pacers fan just a Paul George fan

Edit 2: lebron should have gotten a T for that stupid reaction.

hornetsfansydne
06-02-2013, 05:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRveNUizHFI

This is the play where Lebron got called for an offensive foul while driving hard with Hibbert defending. A few things to pay attention to: Hibbert is in the restricted area and he jumps straight up. Lebron gathers the ball before Hibbert is set but either way he's in the restricted area.

from the rulebook:

"An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul."


What's your opinion? Foul on Lebron or Hibbert or should the refs let them play because the contact was in the restricted area?


edit: After watching a few more times I noticed that Hibbert arms aren't straight up. It looks as if he's trying to give a foul; his arms are on an angle towards Lebron but get moved out of the way when Lebron lifts his own arms to try and shoot.

Hibbert's arms are close enough to up straight for it not to matter. A player's cylinder extends in front of the player 30cm or so so you do not need to be rigidly up straight.

Also on the line of the restricted circle counts as being outside the circle, even if it is a toe. That is the FIBA interpretation and FIBA took the rule from the NBA a couple of years ago so I assume its the same.

After all that, I personally thought it was a block on Hibbert as he steps forward and never re-establishes a legal guarding position before LeBron leaves the ground. Remember if LeBron jumps before Hibbert establishes that legal guarding position he has the right to land.

However, there was another situation similar to this earlier in the game where LeBron was like a freight truck going through the key so maybe for consistency's sake a no call was correct and I think for the game situation a no-call was correct.

hornetsfansydne
06-02-2013, 05:41 AM
And regardless of if you think the call is right or wrong, LeBron deserved that tech. No matter what you think of a referee's call you CANNOT act the way he did

Auseranami
06-02-2013, 06:23 AM
Probably should've been a no call but it wouldn't have mattered anyways.

setman2000
06-02-2013, 06:54 AM
Tough call and it only makes it harder to take knowing the Heat never get favorable calls like that. :rolleyes:

stealth33
06-02-2013, 07:21 AM
The way the game had been officiated the entire way....probably a no-call as the refs were very good at being consistent and allowing excessive contact both ways. The elbow did catch Hibbert but I don't think it was really aggressive enough to be a call there. It would be a true shame if anyone tries to say that officiating has been a black mark on such a good series.

jimm120
06-02-2013, 08:45 AM
The way the game had been officiated the entire way....probably a no-call as the refs were very good at being consistent and allowing excessive contact both ways. The elbow did catch Hibbert but I don't think it was really aggressive enough to be a call there. It would be a true shame if anyone tries to say that officiating has been a black mark on such a good series.

Officiating has been wonky for the Pacers all throughout the playoffs. Don't you remember the pacers getting 40+ free throws to the Knicks 15+ free throws on three different occasions during the Knicks series?

Well, officiating has also been somewhat of an issue here too.

But still a great series. Pacers showing that their disruptive defense plus their inside presence in hibbert really can carry them.

ldawg
06-02-2013, 09:08 AM
It could have been a no call but to protect players i think it was a good call. This is not football Lebron is always trying to steam roll over people. Dude makes no effort to go around people at all. If you are in a spot he is trying to get he will run u over for it. He is just running straight to the basket to a spot occupied by a defender leading with knees and elbows. It look innocent but its not he is playing for the contact either they move out the way or take this blow. IMO offensive you just cant bully the defender for his spot. All the contact was created by Lebron with knees and Elbow to the defender.

BALLER R
06-02-2013, 09:42 AM
What I don't understand is a man of lebron's size why doesn't he just dunk on Hibbert. Full speed down the court he should just try to dunk instead of trying to alter his shot sometimes. He should have 10x more posters than he does.

stealth33
06-02-2013, 10:44 AM
Officiating has been wonky for the Pacers all throughout the playoffs. Don't you remember the pacers getting 40+ free throws to the Knicks 15+ free throws on three different occasions during the Knicks series?

Well, officiating has also been somewhat of an issue here too.

But still a great series. Pacers showing that their disruptive defense plus their inside presence in hibbert really can carry them.

Sure it is very wonky when you look at the stats, but if you factor in the two team identities and play styles (Knicks vs Pacers) then that was really no surprise. The only time that New York looked dominant in that series was when they were hitting jump shots, or when if someone caught fire. The Pacers try to dominate the post. Is it a surprise that they went to the line more by a very large margin?

It is a much bigger surprise to me that the high profile calls have been in favor of the Pacers in this Heat series. The refs, while pretty consistent with their calls throughout the series, have chosen some very odd times to break that consistency.

It also must be noticed that a lot of these no-calls that Hibbert gets*and I agree they are fair no-calls) would not have been no-calls in previous seasons. Could be a combination of a change of officiating, a ref respect for Hibbert, and/or him growing as an intelligent defender.

MarkieMark48
06-02-2013, 11:10 AM
No call, play on

Max.This
06-02-2013, 11:12 AM
Sure it is very wonky when you look at the stats, but if you factor in the two team identities and play styles (Knicks vs Pacers) then that was really no surprise. The only time that New York looked dominant in that series was when they were hitting jump shots, or when if someone caught fire. The Pacers try to dominate the post. Is it a surprise that they went to the line more by a very large margin?

It is a much bigger surprise to me that the high profile calls have been in favor of the Pacers in this Heat series. The refs, while pretty consistent with their calls throughout the series, have chosen some very odd times to break that consistency.

It also must be noticed that a lot of these no-calls that Hibbert gets*and I agree they are fair no-calls) would not have been no-calls in previous seasons. Could be a combination of a change of officiating, a ref respect for Hibbert, and/or him growing as an intelligent defender.

Thats not even accurate. If you had watched the series, Knicks drove in plenty of times, especially Carmelo and got many no calls while on the opposite ends touch fouls were called. Honestly this series has been competitive but far from consistent. The most bs i smell is when PAcers were consistent to getting on the line, but game 5 they actually got called on more fouls than the HEAT and shot less free throws by a decent margin. They didn't change their style of play its just that the refs "didnt feel" like those calls were fouls all of a sudden. Its blatantly obvious the wins are dictated by who the refs want to win that day. NBA ratings have risen for the Pacers vs HEAT and it would be beneficial to have this game 7.

mngopher35
06-02-2013, 11:41 AM
Looked like a no call to me

sjbirds
06-02-2013, 11:45 AM
I was at a bar but did LeBron get a tech or did an assistant coach? He def should have running the length of the court like a douche. But it was a bad call

sep11ie
06-02-2013, 12:06 PM
What I don't understand is a man of lebron's size why doesn't he just dunk on Hibbert. Full speed down the court he should just try to dunk instead of trying to alter his shot sometimes. He should have 10x more posters than he does.

Cause he thinks it's cooler to flop and draw fouls.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 12:08 PM
Very close but still a foul on Lebron. Hibbert is allowed to jump straight up. Probably still wouldve been a no call but I think Lebron leading in with his knee was the difference maker....

natelpete
06-02-2013, 12:25 PM
I was at a bar but did LeBron get a tech or did an assistant coach? He def should have running the length of the court like a douche. But it was a bad call

Lebron and the assistant coach both got techs.

king4day
06-02-2013, 12:27 PM
Finally saw the play. At the least, it should have been a no-call. Otherwise, a foul on Hibbert. One of the worst calls of the playoffs (overall) by the refs

kdspurman
06-02-2013, 12:49 PM
At first when I saw it in live speed, I thought easy call on Lebron cause he lead with his knee. After seeing it in slow motion, it seemed they were both guilty of fouls. Close calls go to the home team usually, but I thought it should've been a no-call. But can't necessarily fault the refs, it's a tough call to make in live speed.

kdspurman
06-02-2013, 12:52 PM
Finally saw the play. At the least, it should have been a no-call. Otherwise, a foul on Hibbert. One of the worst calls of the playoffs (overall) by the refs

I think it was cause Lebron lead with his knee much like Battier did in Game 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5tjv2fPZ0c4

I agree with it should've been a no-call, but I don't think it was one of the worst of the playoffs. We're fortunate enough to watch it a few times and in slow-motion, but in live speed and Lebron leading with his knee it wasn't too bad imo.

KingPosey
06-02-2013, 01:01 PM
If the defender goes straight up and stays in his area he shouldn't be called for a foul, restricted area or not. He is allowed to be somewhere Nd he shouldn't have to just move out of the way.

I wish the NBA would realize that once in a while

nastynice
06-02-2013, 01:02 PM
that's wierd, I didn't know the restricted zone only applied to defenders on the ground.

so if that's the case, I could see how they called offensive foul. James pretty much launched himself right into hibbert. Tough call tho, op's right, hibbert's arms weren't straight up, he did stick them out a bit.

effen5
06-02-2013, 01:15 PM
Who cares, it might have been one blown play. Let it go.

Rivera
06-02-2013, 01:21 PM
I guess we will just ignore this part of the rule book



From the NBA rule book:

"The restricted area also does not apply if the secondary defender jumps in attempting to block the shot, the offensive player leads with his leg or knee in an unnatural motion or uses his off arm to prevent the defender from blocking his shot. "

Agent00
06-02-2013, 01:26 PM
Tic tac fouls were being called on indiana all night and all series. Don't start complaining about one call for lebron. Same thing happened to WEst and Hill throghout the series.

sep11ie
06-02-2013, 02:17 PM
You aren't allowed to create contact as the offensive player either people. He clearly launched himself into Roy.

IversonIsKrazy
06-02-2013, 02:49 PM
Doesn't the rulebook also state something like, "The rule of the restricted area does NOT apply if the offensive player leads with an unnatural position, such as a knee or elbow" in which LeBron is guilty of doing. He led with his knee, which is why refs didn't care where HIbberts positioning was, inside or outside the restricted area, making it a charge.

It was a tough call. I feel it's a play on and here's why; After LBJ led with his knee, he brought it back without the knee making contact on Hibbert to create space. Had LBJ kept his knee out, it's a clear charge, but LBJ brought it back and it should've been a no-call.
Hibbert jumped straight up, while LeBron initiated all the contact, which is why I LOVE the fact Hibbert was not called for the blocking foul. I feel NBA is soooo offensively-favored, I would love to see less blocking calls.

Overall, it was a tough call, but because of my reasoning I would say that's a no-call. But it was closer to a LeBron charge than it was a Hibbert blocking imo.

TheLegend
06-02-2013, 03:41 PM
Good damn call!! Lebron does to much flopping for anyone to feel any kind of sympathy for this guy.

TheLegend
06-02-2013, 03:45 PM
Lebron flopped earlier in the 3rd and drew a 4th foul on Paul George.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBgiPM1QwZQ

I personally dislike this kind of ***** and he needs to be fined again. He to great a player to be flopping like he does.

metsbulls1025
06-02-2013, 04:03 PM
I guess we will just ignore this part of the rule book

Which Lebron did both.

Teeboy1487
06-02-2013, 04:18 PM
Should have been a no call.

JC_
06-02-2013, 09:04 PM
Doesn't the rulebook also state something like, "The rule of the restricted area does NOT apply if the offensive player leads with an unnatural position, such as a knee or elbow" in which LeBron is guilty of doing. He led with his knee, which is why refs didn't care where HIbberts positioning was, inside or outside the restricted area, making it a charge.



Leading with your knee is not an "unnatural position", it's proper form. I don't think it's even physically possible to not lead with your knee when you take off from that far away if you want to end up close to the basket. I think if the refs had seen where Hibberts arms were, they would have called the foul on Hibbert.

Bang bang play though, they usually favor the player that gets the **** knocked out of them so I can understand why it was called the way it was even if I don't agree.