PDA

View Full Version : Do you still think Lebron has the best supporting cast?



JerseyPalahniuk
06-01-2013, 11:31 PM
I've read posts saying he's had the most help ALL TIME even which is obviously just from the Lebron haters.

But more specifically, do you guys STILL think Wade is a top 5 player and Bosh a top 15? Obviously they were last year and the years before but what about now?

What about Ray Allen? IMO, you know things have changed when a suspended Chris Anderson basically decided their fate while Mike Miller had to bail them out.

JordansBulls
06-01-2013, 11:32 PM
You win 27 games in a row and you have the best record in the league including the most allstars as well, then how don't you?

WITZ
06-01-2013, 11:34 PM
lebron makes everyone around him better tho :laugh2:

ManRam
06-01-2013, 11:35 PM
like everything else ever, perspective is needed. as are some grains of salt.

in the regular season he very well could have, but right now in the playoffs he absolutely has not. i don't care what happened in the regular season, all that matters in the playoffs is how people play in the playoffs...and his guys have underachieved like crazy. the 2nd, 3rd and probably even the 4th best players in this series all play for the pacers.

so in the playoffs, no, he certainly hasn't.

Purple_n_Gold
06-01-2013, 11:35 PM
66-16 now hit a patch where players aren't playing well and we get this. Comical. No he has a terrible supporting cast with a bunch of scrubs that's why he chose to take his talents to south beach.

bucketss
06-01-2013, 11:36 PM
You win 27 games in a row and you have the best record in the league including the most allstars as well, then how don't you?

if you add up all the stats of bosh and wade together from this series i bet lebron still beats them :laugh:

Supreme LA
06-01-2013, 11:36 PM
We should give Indiana more credit. I think this series is more about the emergence of Paul George and Roy Hibbert dominating everything inside.

Teeboy1487
06-01-2013, 11:38 PM
Yes. They are not playing well, but he still has the best supporting cast in the league.

Odominator
06-01-2013, 11:38 PM
We should give Indiana more credit. I think this series is more about the emergence of Paul George and Roy Hibbert dominating everything inside.



This. Thank you for pointing this out. lebron james is not basketball.

bucketss
06-01-2013, 11:40 PM
lol wade thought he could rely on his athleticism for the rest of his career.

Purple_n_Gold
06-01-2013, 11:42 PM
It is very hard to win an NBA championship. It doesn't matter who your team is composed of sometimes it comes down to a rough stretch to derail everything.

ManRam
06-01-2013, 11:42 PM
you can't call these guys scrubs all of a sudden; we know what they are.

but you can say that they're playing like **** and right now he's getting very little help. credit the Indy defense, but these guys have all seen great defenses before and played at levels well better than this.

jerellh528
06-01-2013, 11:43 PM
Yes, Lebron has the best team and most help. Indiana is just outplaying them right now.

goingfor28
06-01-2013, 11:45 PM
Bosh was never top 15 and never will be

BigBlueCrew
06-01-2013, 11:53 PM
im gonna agree with ManRam :speechless:

This isnt a simple yes/no answer. They achieved a 66-16 record during the regular season with a 27 game win streak. So they couldnt have a bunch of bums. But during these playoffs there is an opponent on the floor who gets paid to play as well. The grind of the regular season has taken its toll on these guys and the coach hasnt done them any favors

naps
06-01-2013, 11:53 PM
You win 27 games in a row and you have the best record in the league including the most allstars as well, then how don't you?

Yes, but both of Wade and Bosh were playing at a high level when they were in that winning streak, specially Wade. Read the thread title properly, may be you can understand it's asking about the current situation. You can't even tell if Wade and Bosh are in the game RIGHT NOW in this series.

seikou8
06-02-2013, 12:04 AM
does he have best cast of the league yes but of all time no

*Superman*
06-02-2013, 12:04 AM
LeBron needs this guy.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2706173/lebronshaq_medium.gif

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 12:29 AM
The Spurs got knocked out the playoffs last year, lost 4 straight, brought back the same team, and are in the finals. They weren't healthy.

MIA could very well lose and come back and win it all next year. They're not healthy.

RLundi
06-02-2013, 12:38 AM
We should give Indiana more credit. I think this series is more about the emergence of Paul George and Roy Hibbert dominating everything inside.

Bingo.

Mell413
06-02-2013, 12:43 AM
I think he does, but they have pretty much disappeared this series.

barreleffact
06-02-2013, 12:57 AM
He absolutely has all the support he needs. Spo just doesnt really know how to maximize his personnel. Does he hate Mike Miller or something because I swear that guy could shoot a basketball through a golf hole with how accurately he shoots. He and James Jones can provide solid minutes and actually space the floor for Lebron and wade. Battier has long lost his 3pt shot this series so he really has no place IMO since he is too small to guard the bigs. Ray ray is struggling, but PG isnt attacking him like he should so it doesnt really matter. That's a whole nother story because if I was Frank I would tell George to attack Allen every time they even think of having him guard you.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2013, 12:57 AM
I really think the problem is the offense. This one man ball dominate point guard is not the best way to win in my opinion. Its too easy to defend against for good defensive teams. I prefer the system teams that get everyone involved. (Triangle) (Flex) (Princeton)

When you have a great player like Lebron and CP3 you tend to rely on them to make plays for everyone else. It is a good strategy for the regular season, but in the playoffs, teams can see you 4 to 7 times and practice against all your sets and easily take away what you like to do.

There is a reason why Lebrons/CP3/Nash teams win 50 to 60 games but always seem to come up short in the playoffs. And there is a reason why Lebrons teammates seemingly shrink in these moments thus leading everyone to put all the blame on them.

There is a reason why Kobe's teammates PER's and Winshares per/48 all increase while playing with him over playing without him. And a reason why Lebrons teammates PER's and Winshares/48 decrease while playing with him. It is not because Kobe is a better passer or a better teammate. It was the system that Kobe played in his whole career over the pick and roll system that Lebron has played in his whole career. The Lakers were a top assist team year in and year out even though Kobe was the leading assist man with only 5 a game. Lebrons teams are generally in the middle of the pack even though Lebron averages 7.

Wade and Bosh are not as bad as they have been playing. If they were by themselves they would be doing just as good as they were before they teamed with Lebron. Maybe not Wade if this injury is really hindering him but he looks pretty spry on defense. To me his troubles are all on offense. But when you ask Bosh who was a good post player to stand 15 to 20 feet from the basket so that it spreads the floor for Lebron after he comes off the pick, you are asking him to be less efficient. I dont think its his or Lebrons fault. It is the system that they run. A system that puts the ball in the best players hands and ask the others to be spot up shooters the entire game.

kozelkid
06-02-2013, 01:19 AM
I really think the problem is the offense. This one man ball dominate point guard is not the best way to win in my opinion. Its too easy to defend against for good defensive teams. I prefer the system teams that get everyone involved. (Triangle) (Flex) (Princeton)

When you have a great player like Lebron and CP3 you tend to rely on them to make plays for everyone else. It is a good strategy for the regular season, but in the playoffs, teams can see you 4 to 7 times and practice against all your sets and easily take away what you like to do.

There is a reason why Lebrons/CP3/Nash teams win 50 to 60 games but always seem to come up short in the playoffs. And there is a reason why Lebrons teammates seemingly shrink in these moments thus leading everyone to put all the blame on them.

There is a reason why Kobe's teammates PER's and Winshares per/48 all increase while playing with him over playing without him. And a reason why Lebrons teammates PER's and Winshares/48 decrease while playing with him. It is not because Kobe is a better passer or a better teammate. It was the system that Kobe played in his whole career over the pick and roll system that Lebron has played in his whole career. The Lakers were a top assist team year in and year out even though Kobe was the leading assist man with only 5 a game. Lebrons teams are generally in the middle of the pack even though Lebron averages 7.

Wade and Bosh are not as bad as they have been playing. If they were by themselves they would be doing just as good as they were before they teamed with Lebron. Maybe not Wade if this injury is really hindering him but he looks pretty spry on defense. To me his troubles are all on offense. But when you ask Bosh who was a good post player to stand 15 to 20 feet from the basket so that it spreads the floor for Lebron after he comes off the pick, you are asking him to be less efficient. I dont think its his or Lebrons fault. It is the system that they run. A system that puts the ball in the best players hands and ask the others to be spot up shooters the entire game.

Very, very good post. :clap:

And frankly, the one thing I was most concerned with Miami when they first made their big 3, was what was to be of Bosh's role. His talents are absolutely wasted and it's no coincidence he performs like an elite big whenever Wade and/or Lebron aren't playing.

Shlumpledink
06-02-2013, 01:22 AM
When lebron's teammates do well - lebron made them better.

When lebron's teammates don't do well - they suck and they're holding lebron back.


All roads lead to its not lebron's fault.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 01:35 AM
Just because the Heat are currently underachieving doesn't mean that Lebron doesn't have the best supporting cast in the league. He still does by far and even though Wade and Bosh aren't at 100%, they are still the heavy favorites to win it all and vegas odds agree with me. There hasn't been such an unfair advantage in terms of talent disparity since Russell's Celtics won 11 in a row. Instead of trying to come up with BS reasons to justify why the Pacers pushed Lebron's Heat to a 7 game series, perhaps we should look within a bit more and actually consider the possibility that the players are underachieving for some reason or that their leader isn't the god you all make him out to be and that there is more to determining greatness than stats and box scores.

NYSpirit1
06-02-2013, 01:55 AM
This isn't the correct question. The correct question is how long does LeBron stay in Miami if Wade becomes Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter?

Because that's all Wade ever was. He won the first title become he had an absolute legend in Shaq - someone T-Mac and Carter never did. And he won the second because of LeBron. Talent wise and game wise, T-Mac, Wade and Carter all relied on athleticism.

After that went, they were done. And Wades been as done as you can be lately.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 01:57 AM
I really think the problem is the offense. This one man ball dominate point guard is not the best way to win in my opinion. Its too easy to defend against for good defensive teams. I prefer the system teams that get everyone involved. (Triangle) (Flex) (Princeton)

When you have a great player like Lebron and CP3 you tend to rely on them to make plays for everyone else. It is a good strategy for the regular season, but in the playoffs, teams can see you 4 to 7 times and practice against all your sets and easily take away what you like to do.

There is a reason why Lebrons/CP3/Nash teams win 50 to 60 games but always seem to come up short in the playoffs. And there is a reason why Lebrons teammates seemingly shrink in these moments thus leading everyone to put all the blame on them.

There is a reason why Kobe's teammates PER's and Winshares per/48 all increase while playing with him over playing without him. And a reason why Lebrons teammates PER's and Winshares/48 decrease while playing with him. It is not because Kobe is a better passer or a better teammate. It was the system that Kobe played in his whole career over the pick and roll system that Lebron has played in his whole career. The Lakers were a top assist team year in and year out even though Kobe was the leading assist man with only 5 a game. Lebrons teams are generally in the middle of the pack even though Lebron averages 7.

Wade and Bosh are not as bad as they have been playing. If they were by themselves they would be doing just as good as they were before they teamed with Lebron. Maybe not Wade if this injury is really hindering him but he looks pretty spry on defense. To me his troubles are all on offense. But when you ask Bosh who was a good post player to stand 15 to 20 feet from the basket so that it spreads the floor for Lebron after he comes off the pick, you are asking him to be less efficient. I dont think its his or Lebrons fault. It is the system that they run. A system that puts the ball in the best players hands and ask the others to be spot up shooters the entire game.

:clap:

Thank you!!!

I have been telling these guys this for years!!!

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2013, 01:58 AM
Talent wise, yea. Too bad they aren't playing like they can be.

Enemey
06-02-2013, 02:50 AM
I really think the problem is the offense. This one man ball dominate point guard is not the best way to win in my opinion. Its too easy to defend against for good defensive teams. I prefer the system teams that get everyone involved. (Triangle) (Flex) (Princeton)

When you have a great player like Lebron and CP3 you tend to rely on them to make plays for everyone else. It is a good strategy for the regular season, but in the playoffs, teams can see you 4 to 7 times and practice against all your sets and easily take away what you like to do.

There is a reason why Lebrons/CP3/Nash teams win 50 to 60 games but always seem to come up short in the playoffs. And there is a reason why Lebrons teammates seemingly shrink in these moments thus leading everyone to put all the blame on them.

There is a reason why Kobe's teammates PER's and Winshares per/48 all increase while playing with him over playing without him. And a reason why Lebrons teammates PER's and Winshares/48 decrease while playing with him. It is not because Kobe is a better passer or a better teammate. It was the system that Kobe played in his whole career over the pick and roll system that Lebron has played in his whole career. The Lakers were a top assist team year in and year out even though Kobe was the leading assist man with only 5 a game. Lebrons teams are generally in the middle of the pack even though Lebron averages 7.

Wade and Bosh are not as bad as they have been playing. If they were by themselves they would be doing just as good as they were before they teamed with Lebron. Maybe not Wade if this injury is really hindering him but he looks pretty spry on defense. To me his troubles are all on offense. But when you ask Bosh who was a good post player to stand 15 to 20 feet from the basket so that it spreads the floor for Lebron after he comes off the pick, you are asking him to be less efficient. I dont think its his or Lebrons fault. It is the system that they run. A system that puts the ball in the best players hands and ask the others to be spot up shooters the entire game.

:clap:

FOXHOUND
06-02-2013, 02:56 AM
The problem isn't just that these two are struggling to play at top form, it's that they haven't been ALLOWED to play at top form. For example,

"Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh shot a combined 4-19 with just 15 points, their fewest joint output in a game together (regular season or post-season), according to the Elias Sports Bureau. On Saturday, Wade only touched the ball 25 times (series average 53), and Bosh only 19 (series average 27.6), both the fewest for each in a game this series."

LeBron has truly reverted back to Cleveland ball, and that means everyone around him turns into nothing but spot up shooters and finishers in the pick n roll. You can't take players who have been great scorers their entire basketball lives and try to turn them into Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall and not expect them to drop off in level of play.

In game 3 Wade was the Heat's best player. How did this happen? Well, he actually got the ball, and as a result LeBron's INDIVIDUAL numbers suffered for greater TEAM success. LeBron had a couple of games with numbers not normal for him, and it was because he was sharing with Wade, Bosh and even Chalmers more.


The question isn't why are Wade and Bosh struggling, it's why is LeBron going massive ballhog and making them struggle?

And know what? Here you go.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9333733/2013-nba-playoffs-dwyane-wade-says-chris-bosh-need-bigger-role

Supreme LA
06-02-2013, 03:06 AM
This isn't the correct question. The correct question is how long does LeBron stay in Miami if Wade becomes Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter?

Because that's all Wade ever was. He won the first title become he had an absolute legend in Shaq - someone T-Mac and Carter never did. And he won the second because of LeBron. Talent wise and game wise, T-Mac, Wade and Carter all relied on athleticism.

After that went, they were done. And Wades been as done as you can be lately.

This.

Tony_Starks
06-02-2013, 03:37 AM
When lebron's teammates do well -
lebron made them better.

When lebron's teammates don't do well - they suck and they're holding lebron back.


All roads lead to its not lebron's fault.

Pretty much. He's in a do no wrong situation.

PurpleJesus
06-02-2013, 03:47 AM
I do find it ironic that Lebron left for a better supporting cast, and now his supporting cast, come playoff time has disappeared. He is almost single handedly carrying the Heat at this moment. No one else seems to want to step up.

YoungOne
06-02-2013, 03:56 AM
Bosh was never top 15 and never will be

this x100 he is getting abused on the boards all season

amos1er
06-02-2013, 04:18 AM
This isn't the correct question. The correct question is how long does LeBron stay in Miami if Wade becomes Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter?

Because that's all Wade ever was. He won the first title become he had an absolute legend in Shaq - someone T-Mac and Carter never did. And he won the second because of LeBron. Talent wise and game wise, T-Mac, Wade and Carter all relied on athleticism.

After that went, they were done. And Wades been as done as you can be lately.

Agreed, but I wouldn't put Carter in the same tier as Wade and T-Mac.

ewmania
06-02-2013, 04:37 AM
wade isn't what he use to be. his FG is so high because he doesnt have to take much shots... if he was the go to guy wade a probably AVG 44% from the fielde

indiana is younger and is a pretty smart team... only player indie isn't outplaying is lebron but the rest of the cast can't handle the height and defense

stealth33
06-02-2013, 06:54 AM
Talent-wise he absolutely has the best supporting cast, but I don't really like that phrase. They are a super-talented team that isn't playing like a team right now. Bottom Line. Blame anyone you want but they are not cohesive RIGHT NOW. Glue guys like Battier get overlooked, and that's a shame because those guys contribute a lot to keeping Miami humming along, but Miami has been prevented from it's best line ups. Hibbert and George have been defensive monsters. DWade needs to adjust his game and find a non-dominant way to contribute if he's going to be struggling. Bosh isn't going to miraculously un-soft himself but he needs to find a way to contribute and play HIS game. If he is getting wrecked inside then that means he needs to stretch the floor and spot up...and that means not spotting up for 3 which I've seen too much of from him.

If I was a Heat fan I'd be slightly concerned by DWade's comments about not being given a bigger role. Does a player of his caliber need to be GIVEN a role or does he need to take it? Overall, not comments that are indicative of a reigning champion and a cohesive team where everyone knows their role. Flip side - the Pacers are a team in which the players legitimately seem to love eachother.

So great supporting cast? Yes. Cohesive team? No.

archdevil84
06-02-2013, 07:16 AM
so maybe the problem is in the locker room now?

D1JM
06-02-2013, 08:14 AM
When lebron's teammates do well - lebron made them better.

When lebron's teammates don't do well - they suck and they're holding lebron back.


All roads lead to its not lebron's fault.

This

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 08:28 AM
You might believe it's some type of narrative but LeBron's teammates have sucked this postseason, this series especially. Too many people just cant be objective.

85BearsDefense
06-02-2013, 08:32 AM
It just shows how hard it is to have a dominant dynasty.

85BearsDefense
06-02-2013, 08:33 AM
Bosh was never top 15 and never will be

That's a lie, the man averaged 24.1 PPG in Toronto he can get it done.

Knowledge
06-02-2013, 08:41 AM
You win 27 games in a row and you have the best record in the league including the most allstars as well, then how don't you?

Wade isn't healthy so how is this relevant? You have Jordan in your sig, how many rings did he win without Pippen? Even the GOAT needed his sidekick.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 08:41 AM
Anyone who said Bosh was never top-15 needs to admit they just started watching basketball 3 years ago.

Knowledge
06-02-2013, 08:46 AM
Bosh needs to stop with the 3s and go back to attacking the basket, the Heat need at least 2 of their big 3 to be playing well if they want to win game 7 (and beat the Spurs).

ldawg
06-02-2013, 08:47 AM
please stop. yes, Lebron has the best supporting cast.

Backstabber
06-02-2013, 08:55 AM
Lebron does have the best supporting cast, lost in all of this is how good the Pacers are at nullifying the strength of opposing teams. Not to mention, the Pacers may have a better coach.

nycericanguy
06-02-2013, 09:02 AM
It's not like Wade & Bosh have never performed well in the playoffs, Wade dropped 40 on IND last year in the playoffs in game 6.

They're simply not playing well right now and Wade is hurt, but anyone would GLADLY take Wade & Bosh.

LBJ has the best team and the most support in the league, but sometimes it's not the best talent that wins.

Respect to IND, even if they lose this series, I'm impressed with the way they suffocated NY, and now MIA.

nycericanguy
06-02-2013, 09:23 AM
Wade in the playoffs 14/5/5 on 45%

Bosh 13 & 7 on 48%

Let me tell you, I know that's far below those guys standards, but as a Knick fan, what I would give for 2 guys to put up those numbers in the playoffs to help Melo, vs JR and his usual 28% playoff performance.

If Melo had even the "bad Bosh & Wade", he'd be in the ECF finals right now.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 09:27 AM
Wade in the playoffs 14/5/5 on 45%

Bosh 13 & 7 on 48%

Let me tell you, I know that's far below those guys standards, but as a Knick fan, what I would give for 2 guys to put up those numbers in the playoffs to help Melo, vs JR and his usual 28% playoff performance.

If Melo had even the "bad Bosh & Wade", he'd be in the ECF finals right now.
So your implying he's better than LeBron?? Because beating the Pacers is something LBJ stands a good chance of not doing.

Becks2307
06-02-2013, 09:42 AM
So your implying he's better than LeBron?? Because beating the Pacers is something LBJ stands a good chance of not doing.

I think he's implying this -

sub out - JR Smith and Amare (our ****** version of Bosh and Wade)

and put them on that Knick team with all the other parts, they likely beat the Pacers.

BALLER R
06-02-2013, 10:01 AM
Bosh wasn't playing this soft when he was in Toronto.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 10:04 AM
I think he's implying this -

sub out - JR Smith and Amare (our ****** version of Bosh and Wade)

and put them on that Knick team with all the other parts, they likely beat the Pacers.

I dont see it. Melo struggled mightily against the Pacers were LeBron has thrived. That would make 5 guys who the Pacers have absolutely owned this postseason playing together Wade, Bosh, Melo, Felton, Chandler. LeBron is the only reason the Heat even are in this series.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 10:05 AM
Bosh wasn't playing this soft when he was in Toronto.

YEP. Bosh is being asked to play like a SG.

goingfor28
06-02-2013, 10:06 AM
Yes they're just playing bad right now. Bosh wade Allen battier nobody else is scoring consistently.
Credit to Indi

JerseyPalahniuk
06-02-2013, 10:11 AM
This isn't the correct question. The correct question is how long does LeBron stay in Miami if Wade becomes Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter?

Because that's all Wade ever was. He won the first title become he had an absolute legend in Shaq - someone T-Mac and Carter never did. And he won the second because of LeBron. Talent wise and game wise, T-Mac, Wade and Carter all relied on athleticism.

After that went, they were done. And Wades been as done as you can be lately.

WOW. I never thought about that. Let's just say he didn't go supernova and come back 2-0 against Dallas. Would we view him in the same light as T-Mac or Al without the ball hoggedness? I understand T-Mac didn't even get out of the first round be he didnt have a Shaq (yeah he had Yao but they were never healthy together). If these injuries continue to persist then he might have the same free fall like they did.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 10:18 AM
The Problem with Wade is that even though T-Mac and VC lost there athleticism they were still very good shooters so that extended their careers somewhat. Wade has always been an average at best shooter. I have serious doubt he can be a useful player once his athleticism goes.

NYSpirit1
06-02-2013, 10:58 AM
Agreed, but I wouldn't put Carter in the same tier as Wade and T-Mac.

They are similar. McGrady and Wade were better than Carter but people forget how unbelievably popular Vince Carter was from 2000 to 2005. 'Half Man-Half Amazing'. Dunking over everyone. He was once compared to Jordan as well.

Except Carter and McGrady were never on any teams that were championship contending. Yao was always hurt. Carter and Kidd had a terribly weak supporting cast.

Wade's fall will be all too similar to McGrady if that's true. McGrady went from leading the Rockets to 22 straight wins to just completely falling off the map. Wade says he's not healthy, he says he is. We'll see.

But a Pacers win on Monday will mean far more than just a Heat loss. It may mean a potential end to the Big 3 era and all the praise for LeBron this year will evaporate. The unbeatable Heat will turn into a massive and undeniable failure. 3 years, one Finals loss pinned solely on LeBron, one championship and one Conference Finals loss pinned on Wade and Bosh.

A complete disaster for the 'not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7' LeBron James. They should have 3, they'd have 1.

NYSpirit1
06-02-2013, 11:04 AM
WOW. I never thought about that. Let's just say he didn't go supernova and come back 2-0 against Dallas. Would we view him in the same light as T-Mac or Al without the ball hoggedness? I understand T-Mac didn't even get out of the first round be he didnt have a Shaq (yeah he had Yao but they were never healthy together). If these injuries continue to persist then he might have the same free fall like they did.

Exactly. I think he certainly would be looked at in the same light. Think about it. If Duncan went to the Magic in 2000, the Lakers and Magic would have met in the Finals every year. McGrady and Duncan would've been incredible together. Tracy McGrady was THAT good. It's odd seeing him sit on the Spurs bench as a benchwarmer. Even with the Pistons and Hawks, I never thought we would have been seeing him at 31, 32, 33 and 34 as a role player/benchwarmer.

There's no way LeBron is going to spend 30-35 years old with a role player in Wade and an underperformer in Bosh.

Any talk that LeBron is Jordan should be evaporated. Pippen disappeared at points, like the 98 Finals (although hurt like Wade), but Jordan still prevailed. Jordan was one of a kind. He wouldn't be sweating a good but great team without a superstar in the Pacers. The guy was an absolute legend.

waveycrockett
06-02-2013, 11:06 AM
Carter was every bit as talented as Wade and T-Mac he just had a very carless attitude about the game early on his career and never learned how to be a true no.1.

NYSpirit1
06-02-2013, 11:10 AM
Key stat. Pippen scored a COMBINED 14 points in the 98 Finals in games 5 and 6. He averaged about 15 points for the series and was battling a bad back injury.

Jordan averaged 33.5 in the series vs Utah and scored a combined 73 points in those games to compensate for Pippen.

LeBron is not at that level. And this Pacers team is NOWHERE NEAR as good as that Utah team was with Malone and Stockton.

Max.This
06-02-2013, 11:14 AM
The big three. Lebron, Chalmers, Anderson

Chrisclover
06-02-2013, 11:25 AM
yes and no.They were really hot in regular season but somehow injuries plague the other big 2 now

Hawkize31
06-02-2013, 11:38 AM
When lebron's teammates do well - lebron made them better.

When lebron's teammates don't do well - they suck and they're holding lebron back.


All roads lead to its not lebron's fault.

Kind of like how if the team doesn't win a title...it's all Lebrons fault, but when they do win...he was a coward and formed a superteam.

RaiderLakersA's
06-02-2013, 12:08 PM
Yes, LeBron still has the best supporting cast of any team in the league. Any other questions?

beliges
06-02-2013, 01:32 PM
I've read posts saying he's had the most help ALL TIME even which is obviously just from the Lebron haters.

But more specifically, do you guys STILL think Wade is a top 5 player and Bosh a top 15? Obviously they were last year and the years before but what about now?

What about Ray Allen? IMO, you know things have changed when a suspended Chris Anderson basically decided their fate while Mike Miller had to bail them out.

It can be argued that this years Miami team.is up there with the showtime Lakers as the most talented teams in the history of the league. Indiana just has the personnel to slow down lebron, Wade and bosh and that's why they were able to take the dominant heat to game 7. But make no mistake, the heat have been favored in every single playoff game this year and that's because they are a better overall team than anyone else in the league.

LayBraun
06-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Even when Wade and Bosh are healthy it isn't the best supporting cast ever. Throw in the fact that they play like dookie now this is far far far far far far far far far away from anything even remotely orbiting this universe off.

D-Leethal
06-02-2013, 01:35 PM
Not all time. But right now, talent wise there is no question. They are playing nowhere near their talent level. This is still the same team that won 27 straight games, they are stacked and they have LeBron.

nastynice
06-02-2013, 01:46 PM
James has been absolute beast in the playoffs, but his teammates just aren't doing ****.

But at the same time, the team is composed of who its composed of. One of the best supporting casts a superstar has ever had. Or else where do you draw the line? Everytime someone with a good team loses because their teammates didn't play well, do we just say well they don't have a good supporting cast

nastynice
06-02-2013, 01:48 PM
Kind of like how if the team doesn't win a title...it's all Lebrons fault, but when they do win...he was a coward and formed a superteam.

If someone's gonna actually say that, they are just hating. He's been a complete monster. There's nothing more you can ask him to do on the court.

D-Leethal
06-02-2013, 01:49 PM
James has been absolute beast in the playoffs, but his teammates just aren't doing ****.

But at the same time, the team is composed of who its composed of. One of the best supporting casts a superstar has ever had. Or else where do you draw the line? Everytime someone with a good team loses because their teammates didn't play well, do we just say well they don't have a good supporting cast

Yea I mean this is still one of the most stacked teams in NBA history. The talent on their team trumps that of Indy. Miami still had one of the best regular seasons of all time. Right now the guys aren't coming through but that doesn't mean they aren't loaded with firepower.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2013, 01:50 PM
Wade has been hurt, and playing like a shell of himself. Bosh is just in a worst case matchup with Hibbert, and refuses to go near the paint. So for this series especially, LeBron has to do it on his own basically. Wade has been bad all playoffs really, and I would expect that to continue. Bosh may enjoy a better matchup. That being said, Spo needs to try and get some play calls for those guys, instead of resorting to Mike Brown tactics and just giving the ball to Bron out top every play and telling him to do something.

koberulesall
06-02-2013, 02:04 PM
Lebron has the best supporting cast by far he has david stern in his corner making sure he wins....this going to game 7 is all fixed they just want it to look dramatic laaaaaaaaaame, i dont buy it for a second they are handing him rings at this point, you really think the nba is going to let him lose after all the money they invested into him hellllll no....so dont worry your little bandwagon hearts the nba is going to be handing him rings a few more times

amos1er
06-02-2013, 04:40 PM
Yes, LeBron still has the best supporting cast of any team in the league. Any other questions?

+1

amos1er
06-02-2013, 04:42 PM
They are similar. McGrady and Wade were better than Carter but people forget how unbelievably popular Vince Carter was from 2000 to 2005. 'Half Man-Half Amazing'. Dunking over everyone. He was once compared to Jordan as well.

Except Carter and McGrady were never on any teams that were championship contending. Yao was always hurt. Carter and Kidd had a terribly weak supporting cast.

Wade's fall will be all too similar to McGrady if that's true. McGrady went from leading the Rockets to 22 straight wins to just completely falling off the map. Wade says he's not healthy, he says he is. We'll see.

But a Pacers win on Monday will mean far more than just a Heat loss. It may mean a potential end to the Big 3 era and all the praise for LeBron this year will evaporate. The unbeatable Heat will turn into a massive and undeniable failure. 3 years, one Finals loss pinned solely on LeBron, one championship and one Conference Finals loss pinned on Wade and Bosh.

A complete disaster for the 'not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7' LeBron James. They should have 3, they'd have 1.

Carter in his prime was a tier 2 player. Wade and T-Mac were tier 1 players.

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 04:50 PM
Of course he has the best supporting cast, this team was basically constructed for him and also this is one of the top 10 most talented teams of all time. They are just getting outworked and stifled by Indiana. Simple.
It's weird because most people think Lebron is one of the greatest players ever, but he doesn't make his teammates better or do what it takes to win. I think it's easily apparent that he is too intrigued with the self fabrication of being a great one by the fluffing of his stats rather than doing whats necessary to win games. Just watch him play, its pretty simple for a long time basketball fan to spot a real winner vs what lebron does.

pacman16
06-02-2013, 04:57 PM
I'd take any of geroge or roy over bosh or wade.... easily could argue that at the start of the season to.

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 05:04 PM
I'd take any of geroge or roy over bosh or wade.... easily could argue that at the start of the season to.

hahahah at the start of the season? Get outta her with that garbage, man. Most heat fans probably didn't even know who george or hibbert were before their series with indiana last year. Also, most people at the start of the season were saying wade was the best sg in the league and a top 5 player, and bosh was a top 3 pf in the league and top 20 player.

Blitzace137
06-02-2013, 05:05 PM
Of course he has the best supporting cast, this team was basically constructed for him and also this is one of the top 10 most talented teams of all time. They are just getting outworked and stifled by Indiana. Simple.
It's weird because most people think Lebron is one of the greatest players ever, but he doesn't make his teammates better or do what it takes to win. I think it's easily apparent that he is too intrigued with the self fabrication of being a great one by the fluffing of his stats rather than doing whats necessary to win games. Just watch him play, its pretty simple for a long time basketball fan to spot a real winner vs what lebron does.

Who would you consider a "real winner" than? I completely disagree that Lebron doesn't make his teammates better> If that was true than he would have never been able to take a weak Cavs team into the finals.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 05:10 PM
Carter in his prime was a tier 2 player. Wade and T-Mac were tier 1 players.

tier one talent, last in the league in heart.

jerellh528
06-02-2013, 05:24 PM
Who would you consider a "real winner" than? I completely disagree that Lebron doesn't make his teammates better> If that was true than he would have never been able to take a weak Cavs team into the finals.

A few examples: dirk, garnett, pierce, kobe, duncan.

I dont know if you believe in advanced stats much? I don't really myself but per, ws48 of most his teammates all go down when playing with lebron as opposed to without him.

LBJackpot
06-02-2013, 06:12 PM
A few examples: dirk, garnett, pierce, kobe, duncan.

I dont know if you believe in advanced stats much? I don't really myself but per, ws48 of most his teammates all go down when playing with lebron as opposed to without him.

Thats a joke. Why not just be honest and say LeBron isnt a "winner" because you hate him and love Kobe? Anyone that thinks LeBron doesnt care about winning more than stats is crazy or in denial. Why did he go to Miami again? To win. It just so happens that he is by far the best player on the planet and is still able to rack up MVP's and stats. People like to call him a stat padder because he fills the stat sheet better than their favorite player could ever dream of.

ShowtimeNo24
06-02-2013, 07:27 PM
Thats a joke. Why not just be honest and say LeBron isnt a "winner" because you hate him and love Kobe? Anyone that thinks LeBron doesnt care about winning more than stats is crazy or in denial. Why did he go to Miami again? To win. It just so happens that he is by far the best player on the planet and is still able to rack up MVP's and stats. People like to call him a stat padder because he fills the stat sheet better than their favorite player could ever dream of.


Imho Lebron does not show the same kind of intensity or urgency to win as other elite superstars in the past. It's like instead "I will win this game at any cost" it's "If we don't win they are gonna blame it on me again"

It's quite obvious that Lebron is not a competitor type. That does not mean he does not wan't to win, but at times it looks like he is more worried about other stuff than winning.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 07:34 PM
lebrons isn't a winner Lol, did you watch the 2012 finals,can you tell me who is the 2012 finals MVP? i swear laker fans can't be taken seriously.

LBJackpot
06-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Imho Lebron does not show the same kind of intensity or urgency to win as other elite superstars in the past. It's like instead "I will win this game at any cost" it's "If we don't win they are gonna blame it on me again"

It's quite obvious that Lebron is not a competitor type. That does not mean he does not wan't to win, but at times it looks like he is more worried about other stuff than winning.

I dont really agree with this. The past 2 years LeBron has absolutely done WHATEVER is needed for his team. He has more responsibilities than any player I can remember. He frequently has to be the main scorer, playmaker, defender, and even rebounder. If that isnt doing what it takes to win, idk what is.

ShowtimeNo24
06-02-2013, 07:56 PM
lebrons isn't a winner Lol, did you watch the 2012 finals,can you tell me who is the 2012 finals MVP? i swear laker fans can't be taken seriously.

Well, did you watch the 2011 finals, who was the MVP?

What does this have to do with laker fans?

Does living in denial make it easier to disregard others opinions?

ShowtimeNo24
06-02-2013, 08:01 PM
He has certainly learned from the loss in 2011, and the leadership he showed in 2012 was quite impressive, still he at times tends to revert to his old habits. I think Lebron contrary to other supertars disikes to play under big pressure where some other guys live for such moments.

LBJackpot
06-02-2013, 08:23 PM
He has certainly learned from the loss in 2011, and the leadership he showed in 2012 was quite impressive, still he at times tends to revert to his old habits. I think Lebron contrary to other supertars disikes to play under big pressure where some other guys live for such moments.

So last years game 6 against Boston and the other huge game he had against Indiana with their backs against the wall was luck? He sure looked like he was living for those moments. Also game 5 against Detroit. Hes had some weak moments in the past but I definitely dont think you can say hes afraid of the moment.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 08:24 PM
lebrons isn't a winner Lol, did you watch the 2012 finals,can you tell me who is the 2012 finals MVP? i swear laker fans can't be taken seriously.

Lock out season.

Mediocre competition.

All-Star studded cast.

All and all...not too impressive.

amos1er
06-02-2013, 08:25 PM
So last years game 6 against Boston and the other huge game he had against Indiana with their backs against the wall was luck? He sure looked like he was living for those moments. Also game 5 against Detroit. Hes had some weak moments in the past but I definitely dont think you can say hes afraid of the moment.

He doesn't embrace the moment.

sunnyice
06-02-2013, 08:25 PM
He has certainly learned from the loss in 2011, and the leadership he showed in 2012 was quite impressive, still he at times tends to revert to his old habits. I think Lebron contrary to other supertars disikes to play under big pressure where some other guys live for such moments.

based on what?

crewfan13
06-02-2013, 09:04 PM
Lebron may have the most talented staff, but it's such a horribly put together team. Wade and bosh may be elite level talents, but their talents don't complement lebron at all. Say what you want about Jordan having less overall talent. I won't dispute that, but Jordan's team was constructed as a team that could win a championship. He actually had decent bigs who could hit short jumpers but also defend and protect the hoop. Lebron has a team full of shoring guards and small forwards. He has good shooters and decent perimeter defenders. Look how good the unemployed birdman has looked. Imagine him with a actually good big man.

Sure, lebrons sporting cast may be the most talented in the league, but that is just a poorly assembled team.

nysportsfan23
06-02-2013, 09:07 PM
I think lebron is gone after next year, no question. Look at the team other than him, everyone is going to likely decline.
Wade is an icon in miami, won't be traded. In big trouble if he doesn't develop a jumper.
Hard to know how much value Bosh would return.
Allen, Battier, Cole, Chalmers, Anthony, Anderson, Miller, Haslem, Jones aren't improving, may significantly decline.
Not much in draft, vet minimum wont help much.

bucketss
06-02-2013, 09:08 PM
He doesn't embrace the moment.

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4fd16c7fecad043b4d000001-400-300/he-loves-lions-and-says-he-impersonates-a-lion-when-hes-zoned-in.jpg

bucketss
06-02-2013, 09:09 PM
based on what?

hate.

nysportsfan23
06-02-2013, 09:11 PM
After next year you are looking at James, Declining wade, miller, Haslem, cole, whatever bosh brings in trade, and rookies/vet min players. Cleveland and LAL look far stronger.

nysportsfan23
06-02-2013, 09:15 PM
Also, look at east going forward.
Improving Chicago, Indy, potentially Brooklyn, Philly, Knicks, maybe even Atlanta.
It would probably be stupid to stay.

nastynice
06-02-2013, 09:29 PM
Lebron may have the most talented staff, but it's such a horribly put together team. Wade and bosh may be elite level talents, but their talents don't complement lebron at all. Say what you want about Jordan having less overall talent. I won't dispute that, but Jordan's team was constructed as a team that could win a championship. He actually had decent bigs who could hit short jumpers but also defend and protect the hoop. Lebron has a team full of shoring guards and small forwards. He has good shooters and decent perimeter defenders. Look how good the unemployed birdman has looked. Imagine him with a actually good big man.

Sure, lebrons sporting cast may be the most talented in the league, but that is just a poorly assembled team.

good point

Knick_Fever
06-02-2013, 09:50 PM
Its safe to say the Ray Allen experiment has been a failure.

nysportsfan23
06-02-2013, 11:44 PM
Boston will potentially be better as well, forgot them

jam
06-03-2013, 12:29 AM
It looks like wade's body is breaking down in the same way bird's body did, and at about the same stage in their respective careers: early 30's. I have no sympathy whatsoever for wade. He's proven to be one of the dirtiest thugs the game has ever seen.

As far as bosh, he's very good as a finesse big. He doesn't have the heart or brawn to corral a giant like hibbert.

The heat are a vulnerable team. Even if the heat win this time, the pacers take their scalp next season. And this series isn't over yet.

jam
06-03-2013, 12:30 AM
Ray Allen has been very good for the heat. They just don't have an actual center to deal with hibbert.


Its safe to say the Ray Allen experiment has been a failure.

LBJackpot
06-03-2013, 12:31 AM
He doesn't embrace the moment.

Guess you missed Game 6 against the Celtics where he basically won the game by himself in 3 quarters and looked like a psycho killer to avoid elimination.

Get ready for it again tomorrow. Im sure youll have something new to say to diminish LeBron by then cant wait

Supreme LA
06-03-2013, 01:48 AM
Lebron may have the most talented staff, but it's such a horribly put together team. Wade and bosh may be elite level talents, but their talents don't complement lebron at all. Say what you want about Jordan having less overall talent. I won't dispute that, but Jordan's team was constructed as a team that could win a championship. He actually had decent bigs who could hit short jumpers but also defend and protect the hoop. Lebron has a team full of shoring guards and small forwards. He has good shooters and decent perimeter defenders. Look how good the unemployed birdman has looked. Imagine him with a actually good big man.

Sure, lebrons sporting cast may be the most talented in the league, but that is just a poorly assembled team.

I completely disagree.

How can you say the Heat team is poorly assembled when there is no other running mate in the open court as good as Wade or as good of a stretch 4 as Bosh. The Miami FO built this team perfectly around Lebron seeing as how they won a championship last year. Lebron is the type of player who needs the floor spread for him to create and make plays. He went into the post one game and Indiana has gotten rid of that since. Yes, Wade and Bosh are playing terribly but I think you should give Indiana more credit for their defense. Paul George has Wade locked up and he also guards Lebron really well. Add to that David West is sticking to Bosh and helping wisely on Lebron as well as Hibbert to protect the rim, the Heat are in for one hell of a test. The Pacers are the ultimate bad matchup for the Heat and it makes me wonder what they could have done if Granger was healthy.

It's not as simple to just say imagine Lebron with a better big man. What fo you mean? Like a better low post big to clog the lane and not even be in the play when Lebrons pushing the ball? I can tell for sure Roy Hibbert would not be as effective playing with Lebron. Indiana plays a half-court inside out game. Lebron's best strengths are in the open court and penetration and kick offense. He's going to be playing drive and kick basketball until he truly masters his low-post game. We saw how effective he was in game 3 I believe so the potential is there. He just needs to be more consistent with it if he wants to create in other ways on offense.

You're saying the Heat aren't constructed to be a championship like the Bulls then what was the whole party in south beach about? The Miami Heat organization and specifically Pat Riley have done a great job. These Pacers are just a really tough team and a really bad match up for the Heat.

amos1er
06-03-2013, 04:03 AM
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4fd16c7fecad043b4d000001-400-300/he-loves-lions-and-says-he-impersonates-a-lion-when-hes-zoned-in.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dcY8M.jpg

Bruno
06-03-2013, 04:15 AM
I really think the problem is the offense. This one man ball dominate point guard is not the best way to win in my opinion. Its too easy to defend against for good defensive teams. I prefer the system teams that get everyone involved. (Triangle) (Flex) (Princeton)

When you have a great player like Lebron and CP3 you tend to rely on them to make plays for everyone else. It is a good strategy for the regular season, but in the playoffs, teams can see you 4 to 7 times and practice against all your sets and easily take away what you like to do.

There is a reason why Lebrons/CP3/Nash teams win 50 to 60 games but always seem to come up short in the playoffs. And there is a reason why Lebrons teammates seemingly shrink in these moments thus leading everyone to put all the blame on them.

There is a reason why Kobe's teammates PER's and Winshares per/48 all increase while playing with him over playing without him. And a reason why Lebrons teammates PER's and Winshares/48 decrease while playing with him. It is not because Kobe is a better passer or a better teammate. It was the system that Kobe played in his whole career over the pick and roll system that Lebron has played in his whole career. The Lakers were a top assist team year in and year out even though Kobe was the leading assist man with only 5 a game. Lebrons teams are generally in the middle of the pack even though Lebron averages 7.

Wade and Bosh are not as bad as they have been playing. If they were by themselves they would be doing just as good as they were before they teamed with Lebron. Maybe not Wade if this injury is really hindering him but he looks pretty spry on defense. To me his troubles are all on offense. But when you ask Bosh who was a good post player to stand 15 to 20 feet from the basket so that it spreads the floor for Lebron after he comes off the pick, you are asking him to be less efficient. I dont think its his or Lebrons fault. It is the system that they run. A system that puts the ball in the best players hands and ask the others to be spot up shooters the entire game.
nice post.

lbj is getting criticized for hero ball this series but he almost has to because of the offense theyre running against indy who they dont match up well with.

nycericanguy
06-03-2013, 08:46 AM
Lebron may have the most talented staff, but it's such a horribly put together team. Wade and bosh may be elite level talents, but their talents don't complement lebron at all. Say what you want about Jordan having less overall talent. I won't dispute that, but Jordan's team was constructed as a team that could win a championship. He actually had decent bigs who could hit short jumpers but also defend and protect the hoop. Lebron has a team full of shoring guards and small forwards. He has good shooters and decent perimeter defenders. Look how good the unemployed birdman has looked. Imagine him with a actually good big man.

Sure, lebrons sporting cast may be the most talented in the league, but that is just a poorly assembled team.

Agreed, I think Lebron has more TALENT than anyone one else in the league, and it's really not close... but MIA isn't a great team.

Heck even the CLE teams were better TEAMS... he won 127 games the last 2 years in CLE, a higher winning % than his 3 years in MIA.

MIA would probably beat that CLE team on talent alone though.

Probably me being a homer, but I always felt LBJ would have been better in NY.

He would have had a dominant (at the time) P&R big man in Amare, 2 very good, young wing players in Gallo & Chandler that could shoot, a solid PG in Felton, a good slasher/rebounder in Fields... and the following year Tyson could have come over or another solid player. Even if Amare still got injured, I think that was a better roster for him.

Tyson\Mozzy
Gallo
LBJ
Chandler/Fields
Felton

bucketss
06-03-2013, 08:55 AM
I really think the problem is the offense. This one man ball dominate point guard is not the best way to win in my opinion. Its too easy to defend against for good defensive teams. I prefer the system teams that get everyone involved. (Triangle) (Flex) (Princeton)

When you have a great player like Lebron and CP3 you tend to rely on them to make plays for everyone else. It is a good strategy for the regular season, but in the playoffs, teams can see you 4 to 7 times and practice against all your sets and easily take away what you like to do.

There is a reason why Lebrons/CP3/Nash teams win 50 to 60 games but always seem to come up short in the playoffs. And there is a reason why Lebrons teammates seemingly shrink in these moments thus leading everyone to put all the blame on them.

There is a reason why Kobe's teammates PER's and Winshares per/48 all increase while playing with him over playing without him. And a reason why Lebrons teammates PER's and Winshares/48 decrease while playing with him. It is not because Kobe is a better passer or a better teammate. It was the system that Kobe played in his whole career over the pick and roll system that Lebron has played in his whole career. The Lakers were a top assist team year in and year out even though Kobe was the leading assist man with only 5 a game. Lebrons teams are generally in the middle of the pack even though Lebron averages 7.

Wade and Bosh are not as bad as they have been playing. If they were by themselves they would be doing just as good as they were before they teamed with Lebron. Maybe not Wade if this injury is really hindering him but he looks pretty spry on defense. To me his troubles are all on offense. But when you ask Bosh who was a good post player to stand 15 to 20 feet from the basket so that it spreads the floor for Lebron after he comes off the pick, you are asking him to be less efficient. I dont think its his or Lebrons fault. It is the system that they run. A system that puts the ball in the best players hands and ask the others to be spot up shooters the entire game.

i agree with your post, just want to add.. that this isn't how miami usually plays .. they usually a ball movement team but hibberts/west size changed their game plan and rendered guys like battier useless.

ShowtimeNo24
06-03-2013, 12:30 PM
hate.

Yeah, play the hate card, useless arguing with such guys.

Lo Porto
06-03-2013, 12:43 PM
Bosh was never top 15 and never will be

Exactly

Lo Porto
06-03-2013, 12:51 PM
Lebron may have the most talented staff, but it's such a horribly put together team. Wade and bosh may be elite level talents, but their talents don't complement lebron at all. Say what you want about Jordan having less overall talent. I won't dispute that, but Jordan's team was constructed as a team that could win a championship. He actually had decent bigs who could hit short jumpers but also defend and protect the hoop. Lebron has a team full of shoring guards and small forwards. He has good shooters and decent perimeter defenders. Look how good the unemployed birdman has looked. Imagine him with a actually good big man.

Sure, lebrons sporting cast may be the most talented in the league, but that is just a poorly assembled team.

Great post. Jordan's teams were excellently built to compliment him. Pippen was the #1 defender (according to Phil not just me) and the all purpose guy. Great role playing PG's were there to compliment such as shooters like Kerr and Hodges and defenders like Paxson and Harper. The big men were fantastic. Horace Grant was a borderline All Star. Cartwright was very good and better than any big man on Miami outside Bosh. Rodman was the best defensive/rebounding PF of his day. Longley was solid.

I would go as far to say that Jordan's second 3 peat teams were much more stacked than the current Heat. Kukoc was a top 3 Euro of the time.

The way I look at it is this - Without Jordan, the Bulls went to the East Finals. That was when the league was supposedly better according to Jordan fans. Without LeBron, this Heat team relying on Wade's injured legs and Bosh's inconsistent play wouldn't have been the 1 seed and wouldn't make the East Finals.