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i.got.the.nutz
05-31-2013, 02:57 AM
First off, I'm not comparing Lebron to Jordan. Obviously Jordan has the better resume and is the greatest player of all-time. However, when I hear comparisons of Lebron and Jordan, the subject that always comes up is Lebron losing two times in the finals while Jordan is 6/6. I don't understand how it's Lebron's fault when he got his "subpar" team to the finals at such a young age (much younger when comparing to Jordan) while Jordan didn't get to the finals until his team was primed to win it. Lebron's accomplishment of getting to the finals (and losing) at such a young age should greater enhance his legacy instead of using it as an argument against it. Just my opinion.

PurpleJesus
05-31-2013, 03:01 AM
I think the problem is that everyone is so obsessed with comparing players..."sure Lebron is goo, but Kobe has 5 titles." "Sure Kobe is good, but MJ has 6 titles."

Can't people just appreciate great players and not try to demean them by comparing them?

Comparisons can be fun, but all too much, they are used as a way to try to knock someone down.

b@llhog24
05-31-2013, 04:54 AM
For the most part, I agree. It's better to lose in the finals than to get ousted in the first/semis/conference rounds.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-31-2013, 05:03 AM
For the most part, I agree. It's better to lose in the finals than to get ousted in the first/semis/conference rounds.

This.

But for some reason, people like to see perfect records. Like JB, who uses flawed logic to prove his points (which aren't even good to begin with).

If Lebron goes 6/8 in the playoffs, it'd be flawed if someone automatically said Jordan was better since he was a perfect 6 for 6. I'd probably take Jordan over Lebron in that scenario but I'd look for more factors outside whether or not he had a perfect record or not.

LeperMessiah
05-31-2013, 07:33 AM
I think the problem is that everyone is so obsessed with comparing players..."sure Lebron is goo, but Kobe has 5 titles." "Sure Kobe is good, but MJ has 6 titles."

Can't people just appreciate great players and not try to demean them by comparing them?

Comparisons can be fun, but all too much, they are used as a way to try to knock someone down.

This.

NYKnickFanatic
05-31-2013, 07:55 AM
I honestly think LeBron is better than Jordan was.

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 08:04 AM
It's not that he lost in the finals it is the fact he played bad in 2 of them including losing in them because of him not because of cast in 2011.

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 08:07 AM
I honestly think LeBron is better than Jordan was.
Except MJ was on a different level overall. Currently MJ is still #1 all time in PER in the season, playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

Keep in mind that these numbers for Jordan include 4 past-prime postseasons (65+ games). Here are MJ's playoff averages upon retirement in 1993 (age 30), over the course of 111 playoff games:

34.8 pts/6.7 reb/6.7 ast/2.4 stl/1.1 blk/51.3% FG/29.7 PER

I mean, that's just insane. Basically 35/7/7/2+/1+/30 PER. Nutso.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-31-2013, 08:07 AM
It's not that he lost in the finals it is the fact he played bad in 2 of them including losing in them because of him not because of cast in 2011.

Lol that's not even close to what you argue when talking about Lebron. All you say is "Lebron lost x amount of in the finals. Jordan never lost in the finals."

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 08:09 AM
Lol that's not even close to what you argue when talking about Lebron. All you say is "Lebron lost x amount of in the finals. Jordan never lost in the finals."

I never say because Lebron lost x number of times in the finals. I say he lost x number of times with HCA and is 1-3 with HCA vs 50+ win teams while MJ is 14-0 against 50+ win teams with HCA. I say he got outscored by 2 guys on his own team in the finals and by a guy coming off the bench as well.

KingstonHawke
05-31-2013, 08:29 AM
I don't see how people call Jordan the "greatest player of all time". My guess is that someone said that as a marketing ploy, and now everyone repeats it without really thinking about it... sort of like calling Ali the "greatest boxer of all time".

There are two ways to look at the value of a player. Head to head (if Mike at his peak played against Kobe or Lebron at their best), or how good they were relative to the time they played. If you're going head to head, Lebron is the better player. I don't care at all about stats, when you graph out what Jordan and Lebron could both do the way you grade prospects, Lebron cleary is the more productive player. And if you're talking relative to the times, than how does Jordan (or Lebron) even come close to what Chamberlain was?

I liked watching Jordan play a lot. And he is one of the all time greats. But, let's be objective for a moment. Jordan is nowhere close to what the consensus regards him as. So what he won titles, so did Bill Russel, is he better than Shaq because of that? The logic just makes no sense to me. People will even bring up that Jordan never lost in the finals as something that separates him from others... but he lost prior to making the finals repeatedly. News flash, losing in the conference finals is worse than losing in the actual finals.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-31-2013, 08:37 AM
I never say because Lebron lost x number of times in the finals. I say he lost x number of times with HCA and is 1-3 with HCA vs 50+ win teams while MJ is 14-0 against 50+ win teams with HCA. I say he got outscored by 2 guys on his own team in the finals and by a guy coming off the bench as well.

Wrong. You always refer to Lebron losing in the finals.

I forgot to mention how you value the 10% failure a lot more than his 90% success. He can average like 38.5 PPG and lose with HCA because of his teammates, yet you address the situation as if it is his fault.

4milesperday
05-31-2013, 08:53 AM
Jordan, Lebron, Duncan and Kobe are all basketball greats. You can't really judge who is better because players in the 80's & 90's work hard to prove their worth but players of today are usually from middle class/rich family and feel entitled to the money they get. Watch Monta Elis, Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings demand the max contract this off-season.

Minimal
05-31-2013, 09:16 AM
BOAT ("Best Of All Time") - Nickname, Pat Riley gave to LeBron.

LeperMessiah
05-31-2013, 09:20 AM
Wrong. You always refer to Lebron losing in the finals.

I forgot to mention how you value the 10% failure a lot more than his 90% success. He can average like 38.5 PPG and lose with HCA because of his teammates, yet you address the situation as if it is his fault.

Noted that as well.

ManRam
05-31-2013, 09:44 AM
6 rings in 8 tries is better than 6 in 6. i think getting there and losing is better than not getting there. but we're getting way ahead of ourselves now.

but i think that comment is true for any comparison.


and i also think you have to look more in depth than just counting the rings. like, in 2007 could we really have expected him to beat the spurs at that age with that team? and in 2011, well, that was bad. also have to see how they actually played individually, how the teammates did, and a zillion other things.

it's not always 6 = 6 or 3 < 4 and so on

blastmasta26
05-31-2013, 12:19 PM
Losing against the Spurs in Cleveland is not bad, in fact it's impressive he even got there in the first place. But the second loss against Dallas was bad, Wade played well but LeBron underwhelmed. So I would hold that loss against him. But again, just going undefeated in the Finals series wouldn't necessarily make Jordan's resume better. Analyzing their performances would be more indicative of who played better.

Swashcuff
05-31-2013, 12:36 PM
LeBrons 1st finals doesn't hurt him in my eyes would be ridiculous to say it does, the egg he layed in 2011 is what hurts him

harryharrison
05-31-2013, 12:39 PM
I honestly think LeBron is better than Jordan was.

:sigh:

TheNumber37
05-31-2013, 12:42 PM
He's about to be 1-2 in the finals.

Seriously, in a probable Spurs/Heat match up, I'm taking Coach Pop over Coach Spo in a game of winning 4 out 7

D_Rose1118
05-31-2013, 12:43 PM
Losing against the Spurs in Cleveland is not bad, in fact it's impressive he even got there in the first place. But the second loss against Dallas was bad, Wade played well but LeBron underwhelmed. So I would hold that loss against him. But again, just going undefeated in the Finals series wouldn't necessarily make Jordan's resume better. Analyzing their performances would be more indicative of who played better.

the stats between all of their finals appearances, Jordan comes out on top in my opinion for performance on the biggest stage.

http://s3.postimg.org/nx0oehder/jordan_finals.png

http://s18.postimg.org/bmkt650yx/lebron_finals.png

harryharrison
05-31-2013, 12:44 PM
Who cares about the stats. Michael Jordan would NEVER let Jason Terry destroy in the 4th quarter of NBA Finals. Would never happen.

D_Rose1118
05-31-2013, 12:46 PM
Who cares about the stats. Michael Jordan would NEVER let Jason Terry destroy in the 4th quarter of NBA Finals. Would never happen.

exactly!

Becks2307
05-31-2013, 12:56 PM
Plus we are forgetting something.

It took Jordan a while to get to the finals, but when he did - holy **** there was no looking back

Lebron gets to the finals in 07...then...

08- loses to Boston in 7 - respectable they were the 4th seed and the big 3 was too much
09- loses to Magic in the East finals after going 66-16 in the reg season - should have never happened
10 - loses to Celtics in conference semis- as the one seed! - despite his gaudy stats looked like he quit on the team with the decision looming
11 - joins with 2 other stars and STILL loses to the Mavericks getting outplayed by Terry

I have nothing against Lebron at all but imo that is what "tarnished" his legacy, if you can even use that word. He is going to be top 4 all time.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 12:57 PM
I honestly think LeBron is better than Jordan was.

Lived and watched both ERA's and Lebron is not even in the same universe when it comes to basketball.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 01:00 PM
I can respect Lebron for getting to the finals and getting there at an early age and losing did not hurt him at all... As far as his legacy goes I think that showed what a special player he was but when he joined Wade (argueably the 2nd best player in the league when they joined) and Bosh (One of the best PF in the league at the time) and he lost to Dirk in the finals really hurt him as far as how he will be viewed when comparing him to the other greats.

kingkenny01
05-31-2013, 01:04 PM
going 6/6 in the finals is not that important, its not like jordan never lost in the playoffs

ManRam
05-31-2013, 01:07 PM
let's say that LeBron wins 5 rings in 5 more Finals appearances (I highly, highly doubt it).

would you view his 6 wins in 8 Finals tries better or worse than Jordan's 6 wins in 6 Finals tries?

jordan won 6 rings in 13 playoff tries. what if lebron wins 6 in 13 as well (again, i'd be my life against it, he'd have to win 4 in the next 6 years including this year), but has 2 extra trips to the Finals, does that trump MJ's?


basically, the point i'm getting at is that we look at Finals losses like terrible, terrible things (and in 2011 it pretty much was), but isn't getting there in the first place still a noteworthy accomplishment?

effen5
05-31-2013, 01:08 PM
going 6/6 in the finals is not that important, its not like jordan never lost in the playoffs

I find it funny how Bron gets pass when he gets in the playoffs with his teammates in Cleveland...

I think people are forgetting how BAD Jordan's teammates were when he joined the Bulls...

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:11 PM
let's say that LeBron wins 5 rings in 5 more Finals appearances (I highly, highly doubt it).

would you view his 6 wins in 8 Finals tries better or worse than Jordan's 6 wins in 6 Finals tries?

jordan won 6 rings in 13 playoff tries. what if lebron wins 6 in 13 as well (again, i'd be my life against it, he'd have to win 4 in the next 6 years including this year), but has 2 extra trips to the Finals, does that trump MJ's?


basically, the point i'm getting at is that we look at Finals losses like terrible, terrible things (and in 2011 it pretty much was), but isn't getting there in the first place still a noteworthy accomplishment?

Then that is when you use the fact that MJ took an organization that never won and turned them into a dynasty and was also undefeated with HCA. While Lebron has lost several times with HCA and needed to join forces with a guy who won a title as the man in that player's city.
Taking an organization that never won anything prior to a player arriving, it makes sense when the players are close overall. This has been stated several times. It has no barring on if the players are on different levels. Like using Isiah led a franchise to a title that never won before doesn't matter when compared to Magic because Magic is a different level than Isiah. But using maybe Hakeem or Duncan doing it for franchises and Wilt and Shaq not then it matters a bit since they are relatively the same level.
Because not everyone is able to carry a franchise and put a franchise on the map that was garbage before they arrived.

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:13 PM
going 6/6 in the finals is not that important, its not like jordan never lost in the playoffs

You are correct. Difference is Jordan never lost to lesser teams. He always lost to a team that had the higher seed and better record.

For instance, Magic is 5-4 in the finals, but the 4 losses came to teams that had the better record, so saying he lost 4 times doesn't matter much to me unless he lost as the favorite. In fact he should have been in the finals with how easy the west was. What hurts him more so is the 1981, 1986, 1990 losses to inferior teams with HCA.

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:16 PM
He's about to be 1-2 in the finals.

Seriously, in a probable Spurs/Heat match up, I'm taking Coach Pop over Coach Spo in a game of winning 4 out 7

Him losing in 2007 to the Spurs is not important it is how bad he played against them that matters. You can lose to superior teams, but how you play against them matters as well even in defeat.



LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3.


2011 is obviously a black mark against Dallas. Hell it may have been better had Lebron been injured that series and the Heat may have had a better shot to beat Dallas.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:18 PM
There is no winning when comparing players. I think Lebron. is a better player overall than Jordan. Lebron does everything you want in a player. You can argue they played in a different era, but who is to say they can play any better or worse if in the same era. Then people bring in Championships in which I really hate. I tell people championships don't define a player, they define a team. Scottie pippen took the bulls to the finals with the same team after Jordan retired. I don't think anyone could make it to the finals with the team Lebron had. Kobe couldn't even do it himself. I would choose Lebron over anyone that has entered the NBA even Jordan.

hugepatsfan
05-31-2013, 01:19 PM
Because in sports losing in the championship game/round is looked at as worse than not making it at all. People would look at a guy who is 4-0 in the Finals better than a guy who was 4-1.

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:22 PM
There is no winning when comparing players. I think Lebron. is a better player overall than Jordan. Lebron does everything you want in a player. You can argue they played in a different era, but who is to say they can play any better or worse if in the same era. Then people bring in Championships in which I really hate. I tell people championships don't define a player, they define a team. Scottie pippen took the bulls to the finals with the same team after Jordan retired. I don't think anyone could make it to the finals with the team Lebron had. Kobe couldn't even do it himself. I would choose Lebron over anyone that has entered the NBA even Jordan.

Damn I guess Stephen Curry took the Warriors to the finals as well if you consider the 2nd round the finals. And why couldn't anyone make the finals with the team Lebron had when the competition was lacking in the conference? 2009 who the hell else was to make the finals with KG out with injury. Orlando sure as hell wasn't. Boston in 2010 won 50 games exactly and upset both Cle and Orl going to the finals. You act like Lebron was playing against juggernaut teams like MJ was in the 80's East or something.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 01:23 PM
I find it funny how Bron gets pass when he gets in the playoffs with his teammates in Cleveland...

I think people are forgetting how BAD Jordan's teammates were when he joined the Bulls...

There is a difference between forgetting and never seeing him or his teammates play. I think most if not all that are saying LBJ is better than MJ ever was have no clue and never watched him play.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:23 PM
Lived and watched both ERA's and Lebron is not even in the same universe when it comes to basketball. Same here and I would choose Lebron.

harryharrison
05-31-2013, 01:24 PM
Same here and I would choose Lebron.

1 ring

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:26 PM
1 ring Unfinished career

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:28 PM
There is a difference between forgetting and never seeing him or his teammates play. I think most if not all that are saying LBJ is better than MJ ever was have no clue and never watched him play.

It's not even that. It is the people who come around all of a sudden because it was the era they were born in, but don't know the history of the game and when there player leaves they stop following the sport all together. It is why Baseball fans are the purest fans around, they stick with the sport and know the history.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 01:29 PM
Same here and I would choose Lebron.

Really you did???

And you think Scottie Pippen brought the bulls to the finals after Jordans retirement :laugh:

GO ON....

kozelkid
05-31-2013, 01:30 PM
Scottie pippen took the bulls to the finals with the same team after Jordan retired.

Ya, um, that never happened.

TheNumber37
05-31-2013, 01:36 PM
LeBron losing to the spurs counts because he will up against the Spurs, Duncan, Manu, parker and pop. who he has yet to win against in the post season...

LeBron is 0-4 against this team, how is that not relevant. It was relevant to mention his failure to get past Boston and scrutinize the record he had against them.

The basis of my statement was that LeBron has not been invincible to Coach Pop and his schemes, I think coaching is the biggest thing in this series...

Coach Pop might be a better coach than LeBron is a player... since LeBron came into the league, Pop has more rings, wins, and a better record.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:37 PM
Really you did???

And you think Scottie Pippen brought the bulls to the finals after Jordans retirement :laugh:

GO ON....My fault Semi finals

effen5
05-31-2013, 01:37 PM
Ya, um, that never happened.

:laugh: he has no clue what hes talking about...

harryharrison
05-31-2013, 01:38 PM
Unfinished career

LeBron is a might be. Jordan is the GOAT.

pacman16
05-31-2013, 01:39 PM
I dont get how people compare players like lebron to jordan or kobe as the best PLAYER to ever play the game.... BUT then base their pick on championship rings, which is a team stat overall
comparing players should be done by individual stats and how they effected their team and overall league by their individual play and effort on both offensive and defensive ends of the court.

pacman16
05-31-2013, 01:39 PM
I dont get how people compare players like lebron to jordan or kobe as the best PLAYER to ever play the game.... BUT then base their pick on championship rings, which is a team stat overall
comparing players should be done by individual stats and how they effected their team and overall league by their individual play and effort on both offensive and defensive ends of the court.

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:41 PM
My fault Semi finals

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. How the hell does someone get confused from someone leading a team between the semifinals and nba finals. Not even close to the same thing.

funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:42 PM
I dont get how people compare players like lebron to jordan or kobe as the best PLAYER to ever play the game.... BUT then base their pick on championship rings, which is a team stat overall
comparing players should be done by individual stats and how they effected their team and overall league by their individual play and effort on both offensive and defensive ends of the court.

Even then MJ is still #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in the season and playoffs for WS/PER 48 minutes.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:43 PM
LeBron is a might be. Jordan is the GOAT. I'm not saying Lebron is the Greatest of all time, his career isn't finished yet. But I would choose Lebron at this point of his career over anyone.

ManRam
05-31-2013, 01:46 PM
Then that is when you use the fact that MJ took an organization that never won and turned them into a dynasty and was also undefeated with HCA. While Lebron has lost several times with HCA and needed to join forces with a guy who won a title as the man in that player's city.
Taking an organization that never won anything prior to a player arriving, it makes sense when the players are close overall. This has been stated several times. It has no barring on if the players are on different levels. Like using Isiah led a franchise to a title that never won before doesn't matter when compared to Magic because Magic is a different level than Isiah. But using maybe Hakeem or Duncan doing it for franchises and Wilt and Shaq not then it matters a bit since they are relatively the same level.
Because not everyone is able to carry a franchise and put a franchise on the map that was garbage before they arrived.

:laugh2:

When will you learn that there is a reason you are the only person in the entire world that cares about those two things as much as you do for a reason. Who cares if the Heat won a ring before LeBron got there? There's what, two carryovers from that team? What does it matter?

LeBron had to go find his Pippen because it wasn't brought to him. We blame HIM for that? That's on the Cavs organization. Jordan was lucky they filled a nice roster around him, LeBron's last 3 playoff runs saw him get just TWO key players with 15+ PERs. It's not apples to apples.


Answer the question: 6 rings, 8 conference championships in 13 tries is better or worse than 6 rings, 6 conference championships in 13 tries?

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:47 PM
Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. How the hell does someone get confused from someone leading a team between the semifinals and nba finals. Not even close to the same thing.

funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 8 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 28 pts / 7 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

I was actually thinking eastern conference finals not finals in general. I just wrote it like that, but I was Wrong I admit it. When did I compare finals games.

harryharrison
05-31-2013, 01:49 PM
I'm not saying Lebron is the Greatest of all time, his career isn't finished yet. But I would choose Lebron at this point of his career over anyone.

How so? Did Jordan ever meltdown against Jason Terry in the Finals?

JordansBulls
05-31-2013, 01:52 PM
:laugh2:

When will you learn that there is a reason you are the only person in the entire world that cares about those two things as much as you do for a reason. Who cares if the Heat won a ring before LeBron got there? There's what, two carryovers from that team? What does it matter?

LeBron had to go find his Pippen because it wasn't brought to him. We blame HIM for that? That's on the Cavs organization. Jordan was lucky they filled a nice roster around him, LeBron's last 3 playoff runs saw him get just TWO key players with 15+ PERs. It's not apples to apples.


Answer the question: 6 rings, 8 conference championships in 13 tries is better or worse than 6 rings, 6 conference championships in 13 tries?

How is it finding his Pippen when Wade won as the man? That isn't a Pippen that is an alpha player.

6 rings, 6 conference championships is better if you doing it with the team that you were drafted by and didn't go to join forces with a proven champion as the man in his franchise.

Jordan turned a franchise and city around. A city that averaged 6000 fans, and turned a franchise that never won anything prior to him arriving into a dynasty. Not to mention was undefeated in series with HCA at 24-0 and 14-0 against 50+ win teams. Lebron turned the Cavs around, but Wade already had provided the Heat franchise a title, so going to win with someone who got it done already as the man is never going to help his argument in a comparison with MJ. Not to mention had lost 3 years in a row with HCA and it is not like Lebron has superior stats. Jordan is #1 all time in PER in the Season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Going to Miami, it isn’t going to be LeBron’s team. It is Wade’s team because he’s been there and has won a championship there. So the obvious point was that this would not be LeBron’s championship if he gets one or more, that he needed to go get help from a champion and another star.





1. "You have to do what's best for you, and what's going to make you happy."

This is what's going to make him happy? Sharing a stage with two other stars? Really?

I guess that's all LeBron is: A complementary player with superstar talent. We should have figured this out before: He got that giant CHOSEN 1 tattoo on his back and calls himself King James because he is desperate for reassurance.

There is no greater challenge in sports getting drafted by a godawful team, planting your flag in a city and working like crazy until you have turned that team into a champion. LeBron James didn't want the challenge. He wanted to play with his buddies.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 01:55 PM
Damn I guess Stephen Curry took the Warriors to the finals as well if you consider the 2nd round the finals. And why couldn't anyone make the finals with the team Lebron had when the competition was lacking in the conference? 2009 who the hell else was to make the finals with KG out with injury. Orlando sure as hell wasn't. Boston in 2010 won 50 games exactly and upset both Cle and Orl going to the finals. You act like Lebron was playing against juggernaut teams like MJ was in the 80's East or something.
Lebron is playing against players that would dominate back then. Players Like durant and dirk who would stop them. Players that have height of a center, handles like a pg, shoots just as good as any Sg, but plays SF and PF. Just name one person that was quick enough, tall enough, that can stop those players.

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 01:57 PM
Can't we just stop with the Jordan and GOAT comparisons? It really isn't a discussion at this point anyways.

Lebron getting his team to the finals in 2007 was a good thing imo. His team was clearly outmatched and they basically put a wall around Lebron and let his teammates try to beat them. Overall not hurting his resume, at least to me (considering what he did to get there). 2011 was on Lebron though, he didn't step up like he should have. He should get a knock for that.

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 01:57 PM
Lebron is playing against players that would dominate back then. Players Like durant and dirk who would stop them. Players that have height of a center, handles like a pg, shoots just as good as any Sg, but plays SF and PF. Just name one person that was quick enough, tall enough, that can stop those players.

pippen, rodman

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 02:00 PM
How is it finding his Pippen when Wade won as the man? That isn't a Pippen that is an alpha player.

6 rings, 6 conference championships is better if you doing it with the team that you were drafted by and didn't go to join forces with a proven champion as the man in his franchise.

Jordan turned a franchise and city around. A city that averaged 6000 fans, and turned a franchise that never won anything prior to him arriving into a dynasty. Not to mention was undefeated in series with HCA at 24-0 and 14-0 against 50+ win teams. Lebron turned the Cavs around, but Wade already had provided the Heat franchise a title, so going to win with someone who got it done already as the man is never going to help his argument in a comparison with MJ. Not to mention had lost 3 years in a row with HCA and it is not like Lebron has superior stats. Jordan is #1 all time in PER in the Season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html

Shaq had a little to do with Wade getting that ring. When he left didnt the heat end up with the worst record after a couple years shaq was traded.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2013, 02:01 PM
pippen, rodmandoubt it.

Becks2307
05-31-2013, 02:03 PM
Like I said in my earlier post

Lebron's losses in 09, 10, 11 when he had the best record 2/3 years and was the fav are the unforgivable things to me.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 02:04 PM
:laugh2:

When will you learn that there is a reason you are the only person in the entire world that cares about those two things as much as you do for a reason. Who cares if the Heat won a ring before LeBron got there? There's what, two carryovers from that team? What does it matter?

LeBron had to go find his Pippen because it wasn't brought to him. We blame HIM for that? That's on the Cavs organization. Jordan was lucky they filled a nice roster around him, LeBron's last 3 playoff runs saw him get just TWO key players with 15+ PERs. It's not apples to apples.


Answer the question: 6 rings, 8 conference championships in 13 tries is better or worse than 6 rings, 6 conference championships in 13 tries?

Why is it just about rings with you??? How does him joining Wade (one of the best SG of all time and argueably the 2nd best player in the league at the time right behind lebron) and Bosh an all star and franchise player and completely wetting the bed against the Dallas Mavericks in the finals in 2011 not factor in here.

I mean the guys stats in the 4th quarter when his team needed him completley ruins any comparisons that you might want to make to Jordan. You say the cavs didn't build a good team well he jumped ship joined the best and lost with HCA I might add.

Stop nuthugging Lebron and lets get real for a moment here...


http://mavsmag.com/dirk-vs-lebron-stats-in-4th-quarter/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o/

To me he blew it before he even got to this point to blow it against Dallas but when he got knocked out by the Magic a few years earlier who really had no business beating them in the first place is when the comparisons were absolutely ridiculous to me.

valade16
05-31-2013, 02:15 PM
Answer the question: 6 rings, 8 conference championships in 13 tries is better or worse than 6 rings, 6 conference championships in 13 tries?

So you complain about JB and everyone using Rings to compare players without context and you offer him a question such as this entirely devoid of context?

I mean if the 6/8 in 13 guy had teammates that were Stockton, Drexler, Barkeley, and Olajuwan would it still be better than a guy who went 6/6 in 13 but had teammates of Smush Parker, Mo Williams, Brian Scalabrine, and Darko Milicic?

Context matters people.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2013, 02:24 PM
It's not that he lost in the finals it is the fact he played bad in 2 of them including losing in them because of him not because of cast in 2011.

When You go up against a great team in the finals and have the cast he did I think its almost impossible to play great Espicially when you carried the team through the playoffs.... Even the great MJ would suffer if his cast was as bad as Lebrons. Jordan had a ton of talent around him and that took a ton of pressure off.... It wasnt always just stop MJ because the bulls could kill you from anywhere

rhd420
05-31-2013, 02:25 PM
this is about a guy who is looking forward ... people, stop, the past is the past you can't change

LeBron's career is far from over and the kid has evolved. So now it comes to choosing a better team as opposed to lucky to be drafted by a organization and supported your entire career in Kobe? Heck, imagine if LeBron was a Laker his entire career? Rings, seriously - the most important ring is the NEXT one

ManRam
05-31-2013, 02:34 PM
Why is it just about rings with you??? How does him joining Wade (one of the best SG of all time and argueably the 2nd best player in the league at the time right behind lebron) and Bosh an all star and franchise player and completely wetting the bed against the Dallas Mavericks in the finals in 2011 not factor in here.

I mean the guys stats in the 4th quarter when his team needed him completley ruins any comparisons that you might want to make to Jordan. You say the cavs didn't build a good team well he jumped ship joined the best and lost with HCA I might add.

Stop nuthugging Lebron and lets get real for a moment here...


http://mavsmag.com/dirk-vs-lebron-stats-in-4th-quarter/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o/

To me he blew it before he even got to this point to blow it against Dallas but when he got knocked out by the Magic a few years earlier who really had no business beating them in the first place is when the comparisons were absolutely ridiculous to me.

if you knew anything about me you'd know it's not about rings with me.

:laugh2:

it's about rings with everyone. i actually don't care all that much, just trying to see what others who care so much (like JB, who cares about a lot of wacky stuff)

...hence my comment about how the following aren't necessarily true at all: 6 = 6, 4 > 3 etc.

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 02:36 PM
Why is it just about rings with you??? How does him joining Wade (one of the best SG of all time and argueably the 2nd best player in the league at the time right behind lebron) and Bosh an all star and franchise player and completely wetting the bed against the Dallas Mavericks in the finals in 2011 not factor in here.

I mean the guys stats in the 4th quarter when his team needed him completley ruins any comparisons that you might want to make to Jordan. You say the cavs didn't build a good team well he jumped ship joined the best and lost with HCA I might add.

Stop nuthugging Lebron and lets get real for a moment here...


http://mavsmag.com/dirk-vs-lebron-stats-in-4th-quarter/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o/

To me he blew it before he even got to this point to blow it against Dallas but when he got knocked out by the Magic a few years earlier who really had no business beating them in the first place is when the comparisons were absolutely ridiculous to me.

I agree that the Dallas series was a blemish larger than anything Jordan has on his career. You however are asking him to take into account teammates who played good in that series and completely ignoring that factor for his Cleveland days.

Lebron averaged 38.5ppg (49% FG's), 8apg and 8.3 rpg in that series. Tell me how many times in the history of the nba someone has averaged those numbers and had their team lose in the playoffs? (I would honestly like to know if it has happened in the modern era). People always like to bash him for leaving to get more help, yet they are the one's who blamed him for losing with little talent around him.

ManRam
05-31-2013, 02:36 PM
So you complain about JB and everyone using Rings to compare players without context and you offer him a question such as this entirely devoid of context?

I mean if the 6/8 in 13 guy had teammates that were Stockton, Drexler, Barkeley, and Olajuwan would it still be better than a guy who went 6/6 in 13 but had teammates of Smush Parker, Mo Williams, Brian Scalabrine, and Darko Milicic?

Context matters people.

i'm asking him what he thinks. i don't think the answer is cut and dry...as you're alluding to. it never is. rings out of contest (ie saying 6 = 6 or 6 > 5) is one of the last things i care about when ranking players.


the only point i'm getting at: why do people seem to consider a finals loss worse than not even getting to the finals?

ManRam
05-31-2013, 02:44 PM
I typed up a long response to JB's last post...

then I say he quoted Sam Smith. Then I realized it was JB using the same logic he always uses...and that I don't care about it. Neither of us will agree on it, so I'll digress.

You value frivolities far more than I do. When I compare players I try to focus on basketball...and their ability to play it.

Lo Porto
05-31-2013, 02:54 PM
I don't see how people call Jordan the "greatest player of all time". My guess is that someone said that as a marketing ploy, and now everyone repeats it without really thinking about it... sort of like calling Ali the "greatest boxer of all time".

There are two ways to look at the value of a player. Head to head (if Mike at his peak played against Kobe or Lebron at their best), or how good they were relative to the time they played. If you're going head to head, Lebron is the better player. I don't care at all about stats, when you graph out what Jordan and Lebron could both do the way you grade prospects, Lebron cleary is the more productive player. And if you're talking relative to the times, than how does Jordan (or Lebron) even come close to what Chamberlain was?

I liked watching Jordan play a lot. And he is one of the all time greats. But, let's be objective for a moment. Jordan is nowhere close to what the consensus regards him as. So what he won titles, so did Bill Russel, is he better than Shaq because of that? The logic just makes no sense to me. People will even bring up that Jordan never lost in the finals as something that separates him from others... but he lost prior to making the finals repeatedly. News flash, losing in the conference finals is worse than losing in the actual finals.

Great post

ManRam
05-31-2013, 02:57 PM
To me he blew it before he even got to this point to blow it against Dallas but when he got knocked out by the Magic a few years earlier who really had no business beating them in the first place is when the comparisons were absolutely ridiculous to me.

Missed this gem.

Find me a player in the last 15 years or so that had a better individual playoff run than LeBron had in 2009. He played the best basketball I perhaps have ever seen in my lifetime that series.

29 points on (50.2%/40%/73%), 9.3 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.8 blocks in 41.8 minutes. He racked up a mind-boggling 37.4 PER and .399 WS/48 in those playoffs. You'll NEVER see a PER and WS/48 that high in a multi-series playoffs run ever again. I'm sure of that.

Find me a player that's ever done that. Hint: you can't.


That was my major turning point with him. As a Magic fan I almost felt bad for him. He did literally all you could ever ask from a player, including a buzzer-beating winner, and his teammates just were terrible.

No one had a PER above 14.5 for the playoffs. That's just outrageous. Look across the board. Mo shot like 35% against the Magic. Delonte West logged 45 minutes a game and provided nothing. He and Z needed essentially a shot per point. It was pathetic. They shot 30% from three in their losses.


This is why you can't always use team success to determine everything. Because I've never seen a player play as well as LeBron did in those playoffs and that series (39-8-8 on 49% shooting against the Magic) and get as little help as he did then.

That's when I started supporting him big time...because the criticism he got for losing that series, even against the team I love, was just idiotic.

Lo Porto
05-31-2013, 02:58 PM
Even then MJ is still #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in the season and playoffs for WS/PER 48 minutes.

Jordan never had to guard the other team's best player. Jordan never won a damn thing until Jerry Krause completely stacked the team around him. Jordan played in an era when one on one defense didn't exist near to the level it does today. He should have had a good PER.

And let's not even mention how Jordan got about every call for the better part of a decade.

Teeboy1487
05-31-2013, 03:07 PM
We are currently seeing the best of Lebron James. He is not going to get any better than he is right now. As a player, Jordan was simply a better player and more dominant. It's too late for Lebron to surpass Jordan. Still, Lebron has the chance to be the best SF of all time and a top 5 player of all time. I would take that anyday of the week.

Swashcuff
05-31-2013, 03:11 PM
Like I said in my earlier post

Lebron's losses in 09, 10, 11 when he had the best record 2/3 years and was the fav are the unforgivable things to me.

09 and 10 surely not 11 HELL yeah, watched him play, analyzed his numbers and those of his teammates he surely wasn't at fault in either 09 or 10 11 though he played like a role player not the best in the game and a potential GOAT contender.

The Bulls had the best record can you forgive Rose? The Spurs had the best record can you forgive Duncan? The Mavs had the best record do you forgive MVP Dirk? Etc etc etc it happens all the time the regular season and the playoffs are completely different. One man teams typically don't do as well in the post season as they do in the regular season.

ramsizzle
05-31-2013, 03:11 PM
Jordan never had to guard the other team's best player. Jordan never won a damn thing until Jerry Krause completely stacked the team around him. Jordan played in an era when one on one defense didn't exist near to the level it does today. He should have had a good PER.

And let's not even mention how Jordan got about every call for the better part of a decade.

Everything you said is wrong. How much is lebron guarding George? 15% of a the game? lebron's blemishes are GLARING. Jordan's blemishes don't exist. His losses are against legendary teams. The celtics, the pistons, never even went to a game 7 in the finals. Best closer ever. Use stats: it's jordan. Use a storyline: it's Jordan. Jordan played in an era with some of the greatest teams ever. Lebron plays in a better era schematically but lacks talent in a much larger scale. The league is watered down with this many teams. Not lebron's fault but lebron has not beat any team with the talent of any of the teams jordan beat.

Swashcuff
05-31-2013, 03:13 PM
Jordan never had to guard the other team's best player. Jordan never won a damn thing until Jerry Krause completely stacked the team around him. Jordan played in an era when one on one defense didn't exist near to the level it does today. He should have had a good PER.

And let's not even mention how Jordan got about every call for the better part of a decade.

Are you MADDDDDDDDDDD

Jordan guarded the opposing teams best wing player MORE than Pippen what basketball did you watch?

Swashcuff
05-31-2013, 03:14 PM
doubt it.

Pippen and Rodman are two of the best, most versatile and most physical perimeter defenders to ever play the game, they'd limit KD better than anyone in today's NBA.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 03:24 PM
I agree that the Dallas series was a blemish larger than anything Jordan has on his career. You however are asking him to take into account teammates who played good in that series and completely ignoring that factor for his Cleveland days.

Lebron averaged 38.5ppg (49% FG's), 8apg and 8.3 rpg in that series. Tell me how many times in the history of the nba someone has averaged those numbers and had their team lose in the playoffs? (I would honestly like to know if it has happened in the modern era). People always like to bash him for leaving to get more help, yet they are the one's who blamed him for losing with little talent around him.

Fair enough but I will point out that they were not only favored to win that series but they were the #1 seed in the eastern conference that year and on top of that there starting PG on Orlando was not playing either.

I'll retract the part about his series against Orlando though because of his numbers but as for Dallas with the star power he had joined up with there is absolutely no excuse to dissapear when your team needs you most.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 03:32 PM
Missed this gem.

Find me a player in the last 15 years or so that had a better individual playoff run than LeBron had in 2009. He played the best basketball I perhaps have ever seen in my lifetime that series.

29 points on (50.2%/40%/73%), 9.3 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.8 blocks in 41.8 minutes. He racked up a mind-boggling 37.4 PER and .399 WS/48 in those playoffs. You'll NEVER see a PER and WS/48 that high in a multi-series playoffs run ever again. I'm sure of that.

Find me a player that's ever done that. Hint: you can't.


That was my major turning point with him. As a Magic fan I almost felt bad for him. He did literally all you could ever ask from a player, including a buzzer-beating winner, and his teammates just were terrible.

No one had a PER above 14.5 for the playoffs. That's just outrageous. Look across the board. Mo shot like 35% against the Magic. Delonte West logged 45 minutes a game and provided nothing. He and Z needed essentially a shot per point. It was pathetic. They shot 30% from three in their losses.


This is why you can't always use team success to determine everything. Because I've never seen a player play as well as LeBron did in those playoffs and that series (39-8-8 on 49% shooting against the Magic) and get as little help as he did then.

That's when I started supporting him big time...because the criticism he got for losing that series, even against the team I love, was just idiotic.

I agree with the above and retracted my statement but let me ask you this... Can you recall at any point in NBA history where the best player in the league can preform in the 4th quarter for an entire series.

I pasted in the rest of the quote below but you have to agree that this is the biggest crap fest by any player who was considered the best in the league to dissapear at the moments his team needed him most and also the most important parts of the entire year (since it's his championship life on the line and he laid an egg each time for the entire series in the 4th quarter/crunch time).


Why is it just about rings with you??? How does him joining Wade (one of the best SG of all time and argueably the 2nd best player in the league at the time right behind lebron) and Bosh an all star and franchise player and completely wetting the bed against the Dallas Mavericks in the finals in 2011 not factor in here.

I mean the guys stats in the 4th quarter when his team needed him completley ruins any comparisons that you might want to make to Jordan. You say the cavs didn't build a good team well he jumped ship joined the best and lost with HCA I might add.

Stop nuthugging Lebron and lets get real for a moment here...


http://mavsmag.com/dirk-vs-lebron-stats-in-4th-quarter/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o/

effen5
05-31-2013, 03:43 PM
Jordan never had to guard the other team's best player. Jordan never won a damn thing until Jerry Krause completely stacked the team around him. Jordan played in an era when one on one defense didn't exist near to the level it does today. He should have had a good PER.

And let's not even mention how Jordan got about every call for the better part of a decade.

:laugh: holy **** you're ****in dumb.

Seriously? Did you even watch Jordan play? Don't lie.

b@llhog24
05-31-2013, 03:43 PM
JB :pity:

Heatcheck
05-31-2013, 03:45 PM
Like I said in my earlier post

Lebron's losses in 09, 10, 11 when he had the best record 2/3 years and was the fav are the unforgivable things to me.

This isnt tennis, Lebron didnt lose, the cavs and the heat loss. he did his job.

Swashcuff
05-31-2013, 03:46 PM
This isnt tennis, Lebron didnt lose, the cavs and the heat loss. he did his job.

You're a Heat fan. You really think Bron did his job in 2011. C'mon dude you don't have to defend him at all costs he's only human he isn't always going to be perfect.

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 03:55 PM
Fair enough but I will point out that they were not only favored to win that series but they were the #1 seed in the eastern conference that year and on top of that there starting PG on Orlando was not playing either.

I'll retract the part about his series against Orlando though because of his numbers but as for Dallas with the star power he had joined up with there is absolutely no excuse to dissapear when your team needs you most.

Exactly, which is why he has a bigger blemish than Jordan. Most greats don't have near perfect resumes like Jordan though either. Lebron has an incredibly long road if he wants to challenge MJ as goat, but other top 10 talents have had bad series that cost their team.

b@llhog24
05-31-2013, 04:33 PM
If you're a believer in longevity, then to me in your mind. Bron has to have a slight chance of passing MJ. Peak wise, I'd give MJ the nod.

ghettosean
05-31-2013, 04:38 PM
Exactly, which is why he has a bigger blemish than Jordan. Most greats don't have near perfect resumes like Jordan though either. Lebron has an incredibly long road if he wants to challenge MJ as goat, but other top 10 talents have had bad series that cost their team.

Honestly I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to challenge MJ anymore for GOAT he joined a stacked team him the best player in the league Wade #2 and Bosh who was the franchise in Toronto they all took paycuts to add even more onto this team and lost.

To me the road of him to try and be the GOAT is completely closed off and done... I know I'm needling here because it's hard to prove if someone has a competitive spirit but in my mind Lebron just doesn't have that. I'm not just talking about him joining the heat but this guy won't even enter a dunk contest with his entire fan base begging him to do so people willing to donate millions to charity if he does it.... etc and he refused to even compete and it's really because he's so focused on his legacy that he can't even play for the thrill of victory instead I see him as the type who hides from this type of competition because of his fear of failure (which is another reason I think he joined Bosh and Wade in Miami instead of trying to get a star to come to Cleveland).

Cubby
05-31-2013, 04:41 PM
Oh, how quickly they forget...

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 05:34 PM
Honestly I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to challenge MJ anymore for GOAT he joined a stacked team him the best player in the league Wade #2 and Bosh who was the franchise in Toronto they all took paycuts to add even more onto this team and lost.

To me the road of him to try and be the GOAT is completely closed off and done... I know I'm needling here because it's hard to prove if someone has a competitive spirit but in my mind Lebron just doesn't have that. I'm not just talking about him joining the heat but this guy won't even enter a dunk contest with his entire fan base begging him to do so people willing to donate millions to charity if he does it.... etc and he refused to even compete and it's really because he's so focused on his legacy that he can't even play for the thrill of victory instead I see him as the type who hides from this type of competition because of his fear of failure (which is another reason I think he joined Bosh and Wade in Miami instead of trying to get a star to come to Cleveland).

Well we will have to agree to disagree here. When I look at a players career off court stuff accounts for a lot less. I use mostly their on court production and success (I count accolades as on court because that's where they are earned).

I don't think he has a very good chance at all to do it, but it is still there. He has a close enough peak/prime where if he can exceed accolades and longevity enough he could make it. The issue here is that to exceed Jordan in these areas would be extremely difficult, and he would have to do it by a significant enough margin to overcome a slightly worse prime. We are talking very very low odds, but still possible.

THE GIPPER
05-31-2013, 07:29 PM
Except MJ was on a different level overall. Currently MJ is still #1 all time in PER in the season, playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

Keep in mind that these numbers for Jordan include 4 past-prime postseasons (65+ games). Here are MJ's playoff averages upon retirement in 1993 (age 30), over the course of 111 playoff games:

34.8 pts/6.7 reb/6.7 ast/2.4 stl/1.1 blk/51.3% FG/29.7 PER

I mean, that's just insane. Basically 35/7/7/2+/1+/30 PER. Nutso.

Im not disagreeing with you, but the problem with using PER is that its a stat that favours a Jordan.

If Hollinger created PER and the #1 rated player for PER wasnt Jordan, it would have lost all credibility. Not saying the stat isnt good because it is (really good), but it favours "shoot first" players such as Kobe and Jordan.

Jordan vs Lebron will be the debate for who's the best of all time for years and years and years to come. Right now lets just sit back and wait until Lebron's done his career to start that debate.

Tony_Starks
05-31-2013, 07:37 PM
I don't waste time comparing anyone to MJ since he's everyone untouchable "GOAT." I judge players on their own merit.

If Lebron gets it this year he'll be 2 for 4 in the finals. If he loses he'll be 1-4. I'll judge him accordingly.

b@llhog24
05-31-2013, 08:44 PM
Im not disagreeing with you, but the problem with using PER is that its a stat that favours a Jordan.

If Hollinger created PER and the #1 rated player for PER wasnt Jordan, it would have lost all credibility. Not saying the stat isnt good because it is (really good), but it favours "shoot first" players such as Kobe and Jordan.

Jordan vs Lebron will be the debate for who's the best of all time for years and years and years to come. Right now lets just sit back and wait until Lebron's done his career to start that debate.

I doubt that Hollliger created the formula with MJ in mind, but yea PER would generally favour a guy like MJ or Bron.

SportsFanatic10
05-31-2013, 08:51 PM
First off, I'm not comparing Lebron to Jordan. Obviously Jordan has the better resume and is the greatest player of all-time. However, when I hear comparisons of Lebron and Jordan, the subject that always comes up is Lebron losing two times in the finals while Jordan is 6/6. I don't understand how it's Lebron's fault when he got his "subpar" team to the finals at such a young age (much younger when comparing to Jordan) while Jordan didn't get to the finals until his team was primed to win it. Lebron's accomplishment of getting to the finals (and losing) at such a young age should greater enhance his legacy instead of using it as an argument against it. Just my opinion.

i agree, it shouldn't be a slight that he lost to the spurs with the cavs. but its hard to defend 2011 when he disappeared late in games. i think that finals has to hurt him a bit. that heat roster had problems with lack of depth and spo getting outcoached starting bibby when he was terrible etc. but lebron really didn't do enough that series. overall though outside of that series i don't think he has anything to be ashamed about at all on the court.

amos1er
05-31-2013, 09:00 PM
Honestly I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to challenge MJ anymore for GOAT he joined a stacked team him the best player in the league Wade #2 and Bosh who was the franchise in Toronto they all took paycuts to add even more onto this team and lost.

To me the road of him to try and be the GOAT is completely closed off and done... I know I'm needling here because it's hard to prove if someone has a competitive spirit but in my mind Lebron just doesn't have that. I'm not just talking about him joining the heat but this guy won't even enter a dunk contest with his entire fan base begging him to do so people willing to donate millions to charity if he does it.... etc and he refused to even compete and it's really because he's so focused on his legacy that he can't even play for the thrill of victory instead I see him as the type who hides from this type of competition because of his fear of failure (which is another reason I think he joined Bosh and Wade in Miami instead of trying to get a star to come to Cleveland).

I agree 100%.

Shlumpledink
05-31-2013, 09:07 PM
THe current era will always be pumped up by the media and the league in general to make it seem like the current product is fresh and new. What business model would thrive under constantly saying it wasn't as good as it used to be?

amos1er
05-31-2013, 09:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3uWovLRleg

amos1er
05-31-2013, 09:14 PM
It think that Illusionist's sig says it best...


"I think what [James] should do, instead of worrying about where Mike was at, he should be trying to get to the accolades, get to the Finals, as many times as Kobe had. … I think the comparison [for James] should be more toward a current player he's playing against now because of what Michael already did, and LeBron, in the early part of his career, faltered two times in the Finals. I think that [the Jordan/James] comparison can't be made, just from that alone." - Phil Jackson

There is your answer.

amos1er
05-31-2013, 09:16 PM
THe current era will always be pumped up by the media and the league in general to make it seem like the current product is fresh and new. What business model would thrive under constantly saying it wasn't as good as it used to be?

Yup. The sheep will believe whatever the media tells them. They will go to bed at night happy yet ignorant to the truth. It's truly sad.

ArmLaker
05-31-2013, 10:00 PM
I was rooting for the Heat to beat OKC in the finals last year and I'm glad it shut some of the haters up tbh. However, people already putting this guy 'top 10' or 'top 5' are just ridiculous. This guy is going to decline in a few years from now drastically, which in turn would not warrant his place in the top 5 or even top 15 all time. You heard it from me first.

nastynice
05-31-2013, 10:07 PM
Lebron is the better athlete, but I think people forget how good Jordan actually was...

nastynice
05-31-2013, 10:13 PM
Honestly I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to challenge MJ anymore for GOAT he joined a stacked team him the best player in the league Wade #2 and Bosh who was the franchise in Toronto they all took paycuts to add even more onto this team and lost.

To me the road of him to try and be the GOAT is completely closed off and done... I know I'm needling here because it's hard to prove if someone has a competitive spirit but in my mind Lebron just doesn't have that. I'm not just talking about him joining the heat but this guy won't even enter a dunk contest with his entire fan base begging him to do so people willing to donate millions to charity if he does it.... etc and he refused to even compete and it's really because he's so focused on his legacy that he can't even play for the thrill of victory instead I see him as the type who hides from this type of competition because of his fear of failure (which is another reason I think he joined Bosh and Wade in Miami instead of trying to get a star to come to Cleveland).

I agree with this. Although its not James' fault the fo in cleveland was absolute garbage. Watch how they're going to waste the Irving pick too.

But yea, he just teamed up with two other guys and they all took paycuts to play together. If they win the title, its kinda like no **** they should've won.

It makes it real hard to compare, cuz James went from an absolute trash team to an absolutely stacked team. He never had a middle of the road team with which to truly see what his affect on his team was.

SportsFanatic10
05-31-2013, 10:13 PM
I was rooting for the Heat to beat OKC in the finals last year and I'm glad it shut some of the haters up tbh. However, people already putting this guy 'top 10' or 'top 5' are just ridiculous. This guy is going to decline in a few years from now drastically, which in turn would not warrant his place in the top 5 or even top 15 all time. You heard it from me first.

doubt it. his post game keeps improving along with his jumper, his body is durable and he can bully his way to his spots on the floor even if his quickness starts to go. he plays such a great all around game as well, his passing skills aren't going anywhere and he'll still be a good to great defender later in his career just not as versatile when it comes to shutting down guards effectively like he can now. hell if he lost basically all of his athleticism he could move to pf full time and be very good lol.

bucketss
05-31-2013, 10:19 PM
I was rooting for the Heat to beat OKC in the finals last year and I'm glad it shut some of the haters up tbh. However, people already putting this guy 'top 10' or 'top 5' are just ridiculous. This guy is going to decline in a few years from now drastically, which in turn would not warrant his place in the top 5 or even top 15 all time. You heard it from me first.

lebron is already a top 15 player idk how anyone can argue that LOOL

bucketss
05-31-2013, 10:22 PM
Lebron is the better athlete, but I think people forget how good Jordan actually was...

i think lebron haters try way too hard in their explanation in why lebron isn't better than jordan, seriously everything from statistics to accolades jordan dominates lebron in, idk why jordan throne polishers try so hard to protect the man.

bucketss
05-31-2013, 10:25 PM
I agree with this. Although its not James' fault the fo in cleveland was absolute garbage. Watch how they're going to waste the Irving pick too.

But yea, he just teamed up with two other guys and they all took paycuts to play together. If they win the title, its kinda like no **** they should've won.

It makes it real hard to compare, cuz James went from an absolute trash team to an absolutely stacked team. He never had a middle of the road team with which to truly see what his affect on his team was.

c'mon that move was necessary, no one wants to come to cleveland.. the dude even begged trevor ariza and he said no. they were also capped out cleveland was going no where, lebron haters wanted him stay because they knew lebron would never win a championship there and he would be remembered as another charles barkley.

nastynice
05-31-2013, 10:28 PM
doubt it. his post game keeps improving along with his jumper, his body is durable and he can bully his way to his spots on the floor even if his quickness starts to go. he plays such a great all around game as well, his passing skills aren't going anywhere and he'll still be a good to great defender later in his career just not as versatile when it comes to shutting down guards effectively like he can now. hell if he lost basically all of his athleticism he could move to pf full time and be very good lol.

yea, very true. I was always wondering how lebron would be as he loses his athleticism, as he doesn't seem to be on mj or kobe level as far as being a pure scorer. But in all that thinking of "athleticism", i forgot just how freakin strong the guy is. Could definitely seem him being a dangerous pf.

nastynice
05-31-2013, 10:31 PM
c'mon that move was necessary, no one wants to come to cleveland.. the dude even begged trevor ariza and he said no. they were also capped out cleveland was going no where, lebron haters wanted him stay because they knew lebron would never win a championship there and he would be remembered as another charles barkley.

yea, that's what I'm saying. He was in a terrible situation in cleveland, stuck with a fo that just didn't know how to build a team. I hope for their fans' sake they don't flush the Irving pick down the drain too, but I wouldn't bet on it.

But on the flip side of that, he's now on a ridiculously stacked team. I can't think of anytime three superstars took paycuts to play with one another. It somewhat diminishes how impressive it would be were they to reel off like 5, 6 championships. Its almost like, well of course they shoulda won. Its a freakin all star team playing regular teams.

But hey, you never know, even argentina beat team usa once, lol

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 10:32 PM
i think lebron haters try way too hard in their explanation in why lebron isn't better than jordan, seriously everything from statistics to accolades jordan dominates lebron in, idk why jordan throne polishers try so hard to protect the man.

I kind of agree with this. Anyone who uses rationalization like well he's already lost twice in the finals (as if making it there is worse than losing earlier), Lebron chose the easy path, Lebron lost with hca etc is really just trying too hard. At this point all you have to say is more accolades, better longevity, better peak numbers. It really isn't that hard to explain why jordan is better.

mngopher35
05-31-2013, 10:35 PM
I was rooting for the Heat to beat OKC in the finals last year and I'm glad it shut some of the haters up tbh. However, people already putting this guy 'top 10' or 'top 5' are just ridiculous. This guy is going to decline in a few years from now drastically, which in turn would not warrant his place in the top 5 or even top 15 all time. You heard it from me first.

Even if he declines in a few years he still has a very good chance at being a top 10 player all time. Many people already have him in or at the top 15 mark, so that is definitely not true...

bucketss
05-31-2013, 10:40 PM
yea, that's what I'm saying. He was in a terrible situation in cleveland, stuck with a fo that just didn't know how to build a team. I hope for their fans' sake they don't flush the Irving pick down the drain too, but I wouldn't bet on it.

But on the flip side of that, he's now on a ridiculously stacked team. I can't think of anytime three superstars took paycuts to play with one another. It somewhat diminishes how impressive it would be were they to reel off like 5, 6 championships. Its almost like, well of course they shoulda won. Its a freakin all star team playing regular teams.

But hey, you never know, even argentina beat team usa once, lol

i gotta disagree a little, their first year yes i agree, but the past two years wade has been declining and miami wasn't even considered favorites in the 2012 finals against OKC, and today wade is 31 and is pretty much done avg only 12 a game in the playoffs.. so imo if they 2peat thats very impressive.

bucketss
05-31-2013, 10:42 PM
I kind of agree with this. Anyone who uses rationalization like well he's already lost twice in the finals (as if making it there is worse than losing earlier), Lebron chose the easy path, Lebron lost with hca etc is really just trying too hard. At this point all you have to say is more accolades, better longevity, better peak numbers. It really isn't that hard to explain why jordan is better.

yes, btw if they are trying this hard than they must see some possibility in it happening?? if someone said melo is better than jordan i doubt the jordan throne polishers would pay it any mind. can you say paranoid?

nastynice
05-31-2013, 10:45 PM
i gotta disagree a little, their first year yes i agree, but the past two years wade has been declining and miami wasn't even considered favorites in the 2012 finals against OKC, and today wade is 31 and is pretty much done avg only 12 a game in the playoffs.. so imo if they 2peat thats very impressive.

I don't know, its hard to say. Maybe because Lebron is so good, Wade feels like he can coast and get by. But that still doesn't change how good a player he is, can go off on any given night.

Remember how highly regarded both Wade and Bosh were when they were free agents. That was less than 3 years ago. Even Bosh seems to have regressed, but the reality is these guys are still great basketball players, they can still all dominate games on a given night. Its just with James in the mix, their consistency has went to crap

bucketss
05-31-2013, 10:58 PM
I don't know, its hard to say. Maybe because Lebron is so good, Wade feels like he can coast and get by. But that still doesn't change how good a player he is, can go off on any given night.

Remember how highly regarded both Wade and Bosh were when they were free agents. That was less than 3 years ago. Even Bosh seems to have regressed, but the reality is these guys are still great basketball players, they can still all dominate games on a given night. Its just with James in the mix, their consistency has went to crap

bosh is probably still adjusting i can't really explain why he has been so trash, wade on the other hand its sad to say father time has caught up to him, he just had his second knee surgery and if you watch the games damn he gets no lift.. looks like a dieing horse that needs to be put down.

mngopher35
06-01-2013, 12:01 AM
I don't know, its hard to say. Maybe because Lebron is so good, Wade feels like he can coast and get by. But that still doesn't change how good a player he is, can go off on any given night.

Remember how highly regarded both Wade and Bosh were when they were free agents. That was less than 3 years ago. Even Bosh seems to have regressed, but the reality is these guys are still great basketball players, they can still all dominate games on a given night. Its just with James in the mix, their consistency has went to crap

I think that you could make that argument for Wade last year. He wasn't quite himself, but he was able to give a few big games when they needed it. This year he is averaging like 14 ppg and has scored more than 20 points one time vs Milwaukee first round (had 21). With Bosh I think it might just be him having some trouble with physicality of the center position at times? Part of it is obviously reduced role as well here (he becomes a floor spreader more than star), but something is off with him too. I mean last night and today people are comparing this team to his cleveland days. Now to me this is a bit crazy as this team is obviously better. The point is though that the only member of the big 3 that is stepping up has been Lebron.

OceanSpray
06-01-2013, 02:17 PM
I don't care what anyone says about Jordan's 6/6 finals history. Bulls were clear cut the best team at that time. No one even came close except the Utah Jazz. I don't think people remember those games.. Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen. James made it to the finals and has led his team deep into the playoffs countless times. Jordan has never done so without the help of Pippen. Once again, you can't be the GOAT if you haven't won 2 games without your sidekick in the playoffs. It's nothing but a joke, to be honest.

jerellh528
06-01-2013, 02:21 PM
I don't care what anyone says about Jordan's 6/6 finals history. Bulls were clear cut the best team at that time. No one even came close except the Utah Jazz. I don't think people remember those games.. Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen. James made it to the finals and has led his team deep into the playoffs countless times. Jordan has never done so without the help of Pippen. Once again, you can't be the GOAT if you haven't won 2 games without your sidekick in the playoffs. It's nothing but a joke, to be honest.

Lebron led his team to the playoffs countless times? I think he only went 4 times with Cleveland, so unless most people can't count past 4 :/

JordansBulls
06-01-2013, 02:54 PM
I don't care what anyone says about Jordan's 6/6 finals history. Bulls were clear cut the best team at that time. No one even came close except the Utah Jazz. I don't think people remember those games.. Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen. James made it to the finals and has led his team deep into the playoffs countless times. Jordan has never done so without the help of Pippen. Once again, you can't be the GOAT if you haven't won 2 games without your sidekick in the playoffs. It's nothing but a joke, to be honest.

You have said this same thing which isn't true at all.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.

Bulls would have still probably been 1-9 against the 85 Bucks, 86 Celtics and 87 Celtics if you added Prime Pippen to those Bulls teams. Hell Lebron would have been 0-9 against them.

I guess if you playing a team missing it's 2 best players in Washington and then a 42-40 team in round 2 then I guess it is pretty easy to lead a team deep in the playoffs. Why would he be 1-3 in series with HCA vs 50+ win teams while MJ is 14-0 vs them?