PDA

View Full Version : Is modern day Defense better then the Defense of the 80s and 90s



A Black Prophet
05-27-2013, 03:30 PM
:clap:
Many talk about theres too many fouls in todays era but there were actually more fouls called in the 80s(some say due to high pace.) and the 90s.
Then people talk about Handcheckins but teams averaged more points back then compared to now.
So does this era actually hae better defenses then the pasts since less points are scored in this era. And since there are less fouls in this era doesn't this just prove that great defensive teams dont have to foul. And that Physical Defense isn't better then Non Physical Defense

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 03:41 PM
I have never heard one player/coach/executive speak on the game being more physical now than it was in the 90s. Donnie Walsh like 2 days ago was saying how much different it is building a power team in today's league because of the game is officiated. There might have been more fouls but the fouls were real fouls, fouls that today are considered flagrants. Teams played more physical. A foul today was a no call yesterday, a foul yesterday is a flagrant today, the physical nature of the game meant more whistles, half the whistles you see now should be no calls.

The number of fouls doesn't correlate to the overall physicalness of the game because the way the game is officiated and what is considered a foul in the eyes of the refs constantly changes.

ManRam
05-27-2013, 03:46 PM
modern day defense is most certainly "better" than they've ever been.

not at all because of anything mentioned in the OP, however.

Chronz
05-27-2013, 03:52 PM
I have never heard one player/coach/executive speak on the game being more physical now than it was in the 90s.
Yea but Im sure plenty of former coaches/players would say the 60's/70's were more physical than the 80s/90s/Now. But the topic is about the strength of the defense, not the physicality of it. Like I've heard several coaches, whos careers span the eras, harp about the added intellectualism of today's complex schemes on top of superior athletes.

You gotta admit its a conversation worth having, yet because of this, its something I dont put much effort into discussing, I just dont think any era is better overall, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, not sure whats the point in discrediting any far more than the other.

A Black Prophet
05-27-2013, 03:54 PM
I have never heard one player/coach/executive speak on the game being more physical now than it was in the 90s. Donnie Walsh like 2 days ago was saying how much different it is building a power team in today's league because of the game is officiated. There might have been more fouls but the fouls were real fouls, fouls that today are considered flagrants. Teams played more physical. A foul today was a no call yesterday, a foul yesterday is a flagrant today, the physical nature of the game meant more whistles, half the whistles you see now should be no calls.

The number of fouls doesn't correlate to the overall physicalness of the game because the way the game is officiated and what is considered a foul in the eyes of the refs constantly changes.

Why is it that everytime someone brings up defense of the pasts all they can bring up is physicality im a say it once and im a say it again Physical Defense is not always better then non physical Defense for example Dennise rodman he was more physical then duncan he isn't a better defender then duncan

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 04:00 PM
Yea but Im sure plenty of former coaches/players would say the 60's/70's were more physical than the 80s/90s/Now. But the topic is about the strength of the defense, not the physicality of it. Like I've heard several coaches, whos careers span the eras, harp about the added intellectualism of today's complex schemes on top of superior athletes.

You gotta admit its a conversation worth having, yet because of this, its something I dont put much effort into discussing, I just dont think any era is better overall, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, not sure whats the point in discrediting any far more than the other.

I think the overall skills, athleticism, nutrition/training and overall knowledge of the human body and the game of basketball makes the present era of NBA players 'better' than the past in a sense, but I also think the way the game is officiated has a lot to do with the ease or difficulty it takes to defend, score, or just play in any era. I think the way the game is officiated makes it harder to defend in today's era and easier to score, the way the game is officiated is beneficial to offensive stars, they are able to get FTs for minimal contact, players get in foul trouble early and they aren't able to clog lanes and protect the rim as aggressively. I think really in any field or walk of life, the further you go in the future, they are usually 'better' at their craft, you learn more and you improve.

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 04:00 PM
Why is it that everytime someone brings up defense of the pasts all they can bring up is physicality im a say it once and im a say it again Physical Defense is not always better then non physical Defense for example Dennise rodman he was more physical then duncan he isn't a better defender then duncan

Because when your allowed to play physical it makes it easier to defend and tougher to score.

KnicksorBust
05-27-2013, 04:02 PM
The degree of difficulty to play elite defense has gotten significantly harder with the hand-checking rules and the use of more and more 3pt specialists.

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 04:03 PM
I would never sit here and say a guy like LeBron couldn't dominate in the 90s, but I think the overall physical nature of the game and hand checking would probably make it more difficult to drive the lane as successfully as he does. I do think he would adapt though just like the rest of the crop of NBA players would.

A Black Prophet
05-27-2013, 04:07 PM
Because when your allowed to play physical it makes it easier to defend and tougher to score.

Then why did they average more points in the 90s then how did wilkins put up insane scoring numbers and he wasn't a better scorer then Lebron

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 04:13 PM
Then why did they average more points in the 90s then how did wilkins put up insane scoring numbers and he wasn't a better scorer then Lebron

Who knows? Pace? More fouls due to the physical nature of the game, better post players and higher percentage looks. There is probably multiple reasons for that. Points scored doesn't necessarily equal better defense because, again, the way the game is officiated and the things you are permitted to do by the referees on both ends constantly changes. You can't really compare stats from different eras as equals because of that. I would think it would be possible to play better D in an era where more points were scored.

In short, I think the league is more talented, players are probably better defenders, but they aren't encourage by the way the game is officiated to play great defense, the refs make it more difficult to play great defense, and I don't think points scored is enough to sway me from that.

A Black Prophet
05-27-2013, 04:13 PM
The degree of difficulty to play elite defense has gotten significantly harder with the hand-checking rules and the use of more and more 3pt specialists.

You dont need to hand check to play elite defense Lebron,Ron Artest, Chris Paul, Paul George, Conley, Wade has proven this to us
And dont let me mention Bigmen

A Black Prophet
05-27-2013, 04:17 PM
Who knows? Pace? More fouls due to the physical nature of the game, better post players and higher percentage looks. There is probably multiple reasons for that. Points scored doesn't necessarily equal better defense because, again, the way the game is officiated and the things you are permitted to do by the referees on both ends constantly changes. You can't really compare stats from different eras as equals because of that.

But if physical defense is really that big of a deal you would think they would average less PPG thats why I say like Zone defense hand checking is really overrated and I disagree handchecking would not effect lebron scoring ability he would probably average a lot more FT attempts you guys forget MJ averaged 11.9 FTA his 3rd year in the NBA. And I always say Wilkins had pretty good scoring years in the 90s and he isn't a better scorer then Lebron so lebron would do just as good in that era like he is doing in this era.

naps
05-27-2013, 04:24 PM
I have never heard one player/coach/executive speak on the game being more physical now than it was in the 90s. Donnie Walsh like 2 days ago was saying how much different it is building a power team in today's league because of the game is officiated. There might have been more fouls but the fouls were real fouls, fouls that today are considered flagrants. Teams played more physical. A foul today was a no call yesterday, a foul yesterday is a flagrant today, the physical nature of the game meant more whistles, half the whistles you see now should be no calls.

The number of fouls doesn't correlate to the overall physicalness of the game because the way the game is officiated and what is considered a foul in the eyes of the refs constantly changes.

Physicality doesn't necessarily guarantee a better defense. It's the combination of individual defensive skills/IQ and the scheme put in place by the coach.

KingPosey
05-27-2013, 04:24 PM
Why is it that everytime someone brings up defense of the pasts all they can bring up is physicality im a say it once and im a say it again Physical Defense is not always better then non physical Defense for example Dennise rodman he was more physical then duncan he isn't a better defender then duncan

Dennis Rodman in the first half of his career was an amazing defender. The second half of his career he bailed out On defense to keep racking up the boards.

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 04:26 PM
But if physical defense is really that big of a deal you would think they would average less PPG thats why I say like Zone defense hand checking is really overrated and I disagree handchecking would not effect lebron scoring ability he would probably average a lot more FT attempts you guys forget MJ averaged 11.9 FTA his 3rd year in the NBA. And I always say Wilkins had pretty good scoring years in the 90s and he isn't a better scorer then Lebron so lebron would do just as good in that era like he is doing in this era.

I agree, players will continue to adapt to the way the game is called. If Harden and Parker weren't allowed to run into players standing their ground and flail up shots over the backboard while rewarded two freebies they would adapt and play basketball the way it was meant to be played and probably be just as good. If LeBron was getting haymakered at the rim for FTs instead of *****slapped for FTs he would adapt and probably be just as good. If Dominique was in today's league where he would get FTs for getting sneezed on, defenses would adapt and probably hold him to the same production. Elite players will adapt and stay elite as the league changes.

KingPosey
05-27-2013, 04:26 PM
But if physical defense is really that big of a deal you would think they would average less PPG thats why I say like Zone defense hand checking is really overrated and I disagree handchecking would not effect lebron scoring ability he would probably average a lot more FT attempts you guys forget MJ averaged 11.9 FTA his 3rd year in the NBA. And I always say Wilkins had pretty good scoring years in the 90s and he isn't a better scorer then Lebron so lebron would do just as good in that era like he is doing in this era.hand checking is a HUGE advantage defensively. You can literally guide the offense player the way you prefer by having your hand on their hip.

D-Leethal
05-27-2013, 04:27 PM
Physicality doesn't necessarily guarantee a better defense. It's the combination of individual defensive skills/IQ and the scheme put in place by the coach.

It doesn't, but I think it makes it easier to play great defense when your allowed to muscle teams without whistles. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it encourages it.

A Black Prophet
05-27-2013, 04:29 PM
I agree, players will continue to adapt to the way the game is called. If Harden and Parker weren't allowed to run into players standing their ground and flail up shots over the backboard while rewarded two freebies they would adapt and play basketball the way it was meant to be played and probably be just as good. If LeBron was getting haymakered at the rim for FTs instead of *****slapped for FTs he would adapt and probably be just as good. If Dominique was in today's league where he would get FTs for getting sneezed on, defenses would adapt and probably hold him to the same production. Elite players will adapt and stay elite as the league changes.

Agreed

Hawkeye15
05-27-2013, 06:32 PM
defenses are better now. That side of the ball has finally caught up to the other side, where as in the 80's, it was completely one sided, 90's, getting better, 2000's, stronger, and now its equal. The strategic side, the athletes, the specialists, and the highly advanced scouting information available today make it just flat out stronger to me.

For instance, Battier has said he researched players he would guard, and knew which side he should force them to, how many dribbles, catch area with lowest scoring percentage, etc, etc. He knows this because of advanced scouting metrics that were never available a long time ago.

As far as the physicality, sure we don't have the big hits, and hard fouls we had before, and nobody fights, or it costs them a ridiculous amount of money, but the 80's and 90's also had wide open lanes compared to today, where a coach like Thibs completely suffocates your team.

Trueblue2
05-27-2013, 06:36 PM
being able to play Zone Defense more than compensates for the lack of handchecking...

Hawkeye15
05-27-2013, 06:39 PM
being able to play Zone Defense more than compensates for the lack of handchecking...

of course it does. That being said, the NBA makes rule changes anytime the defense starts to catch up too much. Points put butts in the seats.

BigCityofDreams
05-27-2013, 07:04 PM
defenses are better now. That side of the ball has finally caught up to the other side, where as in the 80's, it was completely one sided, 90's, getting better, 2000's, stronger, and now its equal. The strategic side, the athletes, the specialists, and the highly advanced scouting information available today make it just flat out stronger to me.

For instance, Battier has said he researched players he would guard, and knew which side he should force them to, how many dribbles, catch area with lowest scoring percentage, etc, etc. He knows this because of advanced scouting metrics that were never available a long time ago.

As far as the physicality, sure we don't have the big hits, and hard fouls we had before, and nobody fights, or it costs them a ridiculous amount of money, but the 80's and 90's also had wide open lanes compared to today, where a coach like Thibs completely suffocates your team.

That's interesting. I wonder how many other players take advantage of advanced metrics?

3RDASYSTEM
05-27-2013, 07:25 PM
Why is it that everytime someone brings up defense of the pasts all they can bring up is physicality im a say it once and im a say it again Physical Defense is not always better then non physical Defense for example Dennise rodman he was more physical then duncan he isn't a better defender then duncan

RODMAN had more versatility than DUNCAN and RODMAN was just as finesse as physical

its no way in the world DUNCAN could guard JORDAN for any stretch of a game

they both guarded SHAQ and RODMAN was more effective but both are top tier, its same thing with KG, he could guard more diff. type players and was taller than RODMAN

A player who is more versatile and top notch with it is more valuable in my book

also just because they let non athletic type players clothesline and stuff doesn't mean defense was better,they just protect star players more, its a player driven league so the best players or majority need to be protected

another reason is the dollar is so much higher than back in 80' and 90's

Hawkeye15
05-27-2013, 07:57 PM
That's interesting. I wonder how many other players take advantage of advanced metrics?

Durant recently, and I have read that its becoming more of an individual thing, versus the norm, which is the team scouts bringing in analytics to the scouting reports.

Kashmir13579
05-27-2013, 08:13 PM
Yea but Im sure plenty of former coaches/players would say the 60's/70's were more physical than the 80s/90s/Now. But the topic is about the strength of the defense, not the physicality of it. Like I've heard several coaches, whos careers span the eras, harp about the added intellectualism of today's complex schemes on top of superior athletes.

You gotta admit its a conversation worth having, yet because of this, its something I dont put much effort into discussing, I just dont think any era is better overall, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, not sure whats the point in discrediting any far more than the other.
I think thats a distinction people often fail to make. I'd argue the physical side to defense of past eras is cheating as far as today's NBA is concerned. That regardless of what people want to see on the tele, there is a higher degree of difficulty in guarding superior athletes, without resorting to bush league fouls to mark territory.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-27-2013, 10:19 PM
I didn't even know defense was legal in today's NBA?

Teeboy1487
05-27-2013, 10:39 PM
I think man on man defense was better back in the day because of the physical nature. Now with the introduction of zone defenses over a decade ago, I think team defenses are better overall than the late 80s/90s because now, you could get away with a bad defender on your team.

effen5
05-27-2013, 10:45 PM
IMO, the 90s had better scorers. Players in the 90s had better fundamentals as well, it wasn't all about athleticism. My opinion though.

effen5
05-27-2013, 10:48 PM
And there was a lot less 1 on 1 basketball back then as well.

A Black Prophet
05-28-2013, 06:40 PM
And there was a lot less 1 on 1 basketball back then as well.

:eyebrow:

effen5
05-28-2013, 06:46 PM
:eyebrow:

Really? Did you watch the 90s? A lot of the championship caliber teams played inside out....Bulls with Jordan, Orlando with shaq, Rockets with the dream, Jazz with malone....it wasn't like Melo going one on one jacking up a bad jumper. There was a lot less selfishness back then believe it or not.

A Black Prophet
05-28-2013, 06:53 PM
Really? Did you watch the 90s? A lot of the championship caliber teams played inside out....Bulls with Jordan, Orlando with shaq, Rockets with the dream, Jazz with malone....it wasn't like Melo going one on one jacking up a bad jumper. There was a lot less selfishness back then believe it or not.

So just because I give you the eye brow that means im disagreeing with you ow wow and yes I have watched many 90s games and what you are saying is not a fallacy in any kind of way even though I do feel that there was a lil bit more 101 back then in the 90s from what I've seen

JasonJohnHorn
05-28-2013, 07:13 PM
It's apples and oranges in my opinion. Guys were more physical on both ends and got away with more. Guys were harder to guard and also harder to break down. There were also more possessions, so teams scored more. Points per 100 possessions may be a good indication, but I'm not sure what the number on fouls are. If I had to guess, I'd say officials call more fouls now, but I'd have to look at the numbers.

A team like the Bad Boys, or the Knicks in the early-mid 90's or even the Bulls on the second three-peat, they wouldn't get away with the defence the played now, but those guys would also be able to adjust I think. The Bad Boys 2.0 with Big Ben, and the Spurs over the past decade as well as the Celtics in 08... they all had great defences that would stand the test of time.

NYKalltheway
05-28-2013, 10:24 PM
Why is it that everytime someone brings up defense of the pasts all they can bring up is physicality im a say it once and im a say it again Physical Defense is not always better then non physical Defense for example Dennise rodman he was more physical then duncan he isn't a better defender then duncan


You've probably never played basketball, have you?

Heatcheck
05-29-2013, 03:01 PM
Better athletes, longer too.

more 4s and 5s that can step out and stretch the floor.

more complex defensive schemes.

The simple fact that the game is called how it is, and the scoring numbers arent completely out of control should be a sign.

A Black Prophet
05-30-2013, 05:01 PM
You've probably never played basketball, have you?

SMDH
Yes I do play basketball and we do handcheck run zones and everything and I must say hand checking does not really affect my game but when theres a Zone it makes it harder for me to get to the rim I have a really good Jump shot so neither really bothers my game to wear im not dominate on the court it's apples and oranges you have yet to give me any proof that handchecking really is what it's cracked up too be and there really hasn't been anybody to give proof on why zone is better it's apples and oranges period. So stop sitting here acting like handchecking is that big of a deal I bet you are one of those guys who think Dumars would've Checked lebron even Scottie admitted he wouldn't be able to Check lebron lol