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HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 11:12 AM
Since LeBron came into the league in 2003-04, nobody in the NBA has made more game-tying and go-ahead shots in the final 24 seconds of playoff games than LeBron, who is 7-of-16 on those shots. His 43.8 field goal percentage on those clutch shots ranks the best in the NBA since his rookie season among players with at least 10 attempts. The league average is 28.3 percent on those shots.



Most Game-Tying/Go Ahead FG in Playoffs Final 24 Secs. of 4th Qtr/OT Since 03-04
LeBron James - 7/16
Kobe Bryant - 5/17
Kevin Durant - 5/12
Dirk Nowitzki - 5/12


You guys need to get over that 2011 Finals series because that was the only thing he got a bad rep but in Cleveland & in Miami last year (and this year) he showed that he's more than capable of coming through in the clutch

Swashcuff
05-24-2013, 11:23 AM
Looks good but before that game LeBron was 5-14 in such situations. In no way am I downplaying what he did just putting it into perspective. That 11 Finals would always be a cloud over his head in terms of his clutch legacy.

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 11:27 AM
Kobe Bryant 5/17? Wait, you're telling me he's not clutch?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 11:40 AM
Lebron gets a lay up on a defensive breakdown and now he's clutch. Psd FTW!

Swashcuff
05-24-2013, 11:42 AM
Lebron gets a lay up on a defensive breakdown and now he's clutch. Psd FTW!

LeBron broke down the defense and I don't know you're blind but even before that he was more clutch than Kobe, FYI this isn't PSD who broke this article it was ESPN.

koreancabbage
05-24-2013, 11:43 AM
Lebron gets a lay up on a defensive breakdown and now he's clutch. Psd FTW!

thats ESPN. not PSD.

a made shot is still a made shot. get over it. kobephile

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 11:49 AM
Lebron gets a lay up on a defensive breakdown and now he's clutch. Psd FTW!

Clutch doesn't mean having to take a jumpshot or a game winning play. Clutch means making a huge play, and LeBron did just that. Keep hating.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 11:53 AM
LeBron broke down the defense and I don't know you're blind but even before that he was more clutch than Kobe, FYI this isn't PSD who broke this article it was ESPN.

Are you forgetting about Lebron and Wade combination of 3/twenty something in clutch shots since joining forces?

You kids don't really take what Bspn says seriously do you? :laugh: Lebron = Jordan to them. So I guess I know why you guys watch that channel.

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 12:00 PM
Are you forgetting about Lebron and Wade combination of 3/twenty something in clutch shots since joining forces?

You kids don't really take what Bspn says seriously do you? :laugh: Lebron = Jordan to them. So I guess I know why you guys watch that channel.

Those are legitimate stats, why shouldn't we take it into account? Are you just angry that LeBron is better at something than Kobe again?

THE GIPPER
05-24-2013, 12:03 PM
How much clutch could a Kobe chuck if a Kobe could be clutch?

Swashcuff
05-24-2013, 12:10 PM
Are you forgetting about Lebron and Wade combination of 3/twenty something in clutch shots since joining forces?

You kids don't really take what Bspn says seriously do you? :laugh: Lebron = Jordan to them. So I guess I know why you guys watch that channel.

So when there are facts that LeBron and Wade went 3-20 we take them into consideration but the FACTS about LeBron going 7-16 should be laughed at? Good job troll.

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 12:19 PM
I love how Illusionist always gets pissy once you start throwing stats, because he hasn't got any to back his theories up...

QUICK ILLUSIONIST. FIND A YOUTUBE VIDEO THAT PROVES EVERYONE WRONG! HURRRYYYY!!!

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 12:30 PM
Those are legitimate stats, why shouldn't we take it into account? Are you just angry that LeBron is better at something than Kobe again?

Lebron is the best at being runner up. All you Heat fans can continue acting like Lebron wasn't a loser his whole life before joining a top three team all time. :yawn:

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 12:33 PM
Lebron is the best at being runner up. All you Heat fans can continue acting like Lebron wasn't a loser his whole life before joining a top three team all time. :yawn:

1. I'm not a Heat fan.
2. You don't know anything about basketball.
3. I'm pretty sure he's #1 on that list so how is that runner up?

It must kill you inside that no one thinks Kobe is even a top 5 player anymore (except Lakers fans), and LBJ is already considered better, and has at least another 10 years of basketball still in him.

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 12:39 PM
Illusionist you thought Jordan was right next to Lebron as far as size, speed, and strength. Like the more you talk the more it's hard to take anything you say serious. You very clearly don't watch anything, but Lakers games. You probably started watching basketball a few years ago, and the only reason you don't call Kobe the GOAT anymore is because people kept calling you an idiot.

Do yourself a favor, and actually go watch Jordan play because it's extremely apparent you never have.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 12:45 PM
1. I'm not a Heat fan.
2. You don't know anything about basketball.
3. I'm pretty sure he's #1 on that list so how is that runner up?

It must kill you inside that no one thinks Kobe is even a top 5 player anymore (except Lakers fans), and LBJ is already considered better, and has at least another 10 years of basketball still in him.

Yet, Kobe gets voted into the all nba team. I'm sure you know more about basketball than the voters right?Lebron better than Kobe? So Lebron is a top 6 player now? Lmfao. Lebron fans are to much.


Illusionist you thought Jordan was right next to Lebron as far as size, speed, and strength. Like the more you talk the more it's hard to take anything you say serious. You very clearly don't watch anything, but Lakers games. You probably started watching basketball a few years ago, and the only reason you don't call Kobe the GOAT anymore is because people kept calling you an idiot.

Do yourself a favor, and actually go watch Jordan play because it's extremely apparent you never have.

I never said any of that, I the only thing I said Jordan had on Lebron was speed. When did I call Kobe the Goat you Imbecile, keep making **** up kid. You're the obvious 15 year old here, I've seen plenty of Jordan, and as a player,he ***** all over Lebron.

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 12:46 PM
Lebron is the best at being runner up. All you Heat fans can continue acting like Lebron wasn't a loser his whole life before joining a top three team all time. :yawn:

Runner up? Who is he runner up to? The only one in front of James is Jordan. I don't think you can even put anyone in comparison to James. There is no one who is that good other than Jordan and it's not even close. LeBron is the best player since Jordan, not Kobe. Get it over your head, Kobe isn't the best and wouldn't have been at any point of his career if LeBron was playing.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 12:51 PM
Runner up? Who is he runner up to? The only one in front of James is Jordan. I don't think you can even put anyone in comparison to James. There is no one who is that good other than Jordan and it's not even close. LeBron is the best player since Jordan, not Kobe. Get it over your head, Kobe isn't the best and wouldn't have been at any point of his career if LeBron was playing.

Lebron got to the finals once in nine years(still lost) and has two bronze medals in that time, perennial loser if you ask me. All before he joined a top 3 team all time.

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 12:54 PM
Lebron got to the finals once in nine years(still lost) and has two bronze medals in that time, perennial loser if you ask me. All before he joined a top 3 team all time.

1) LeBron didn't have Shaq or any All Star other than Mo.
2) Two bronze medals? You're blaming him when it was a collective amount of NBA players?

Did you watch NBA when Kobe was struggling with the LAL and cried for a trade? That was just 3 years of Kobe playing without a legitimate contending squad and he failed miserably. LeBron went through 7 years of that and never complained. The fact that he made the NBA finals with that squad was a testament of how great a player can be but also how much more it takes than just one great player. If you think LeBron has failed, you're an idiot.

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 12:54 PM
Yet, Kobe gets voted into the all nba team. I'm sure you know more about basketball than the voters right?Lebron better than Kobe? So Lebron is a top 6 player now? Lmfao. Lebron fans are to much.



I never said any of that, I the only thing I said Jordan had on Lebron was speed. When did I call Kobe the Goat you Imbecile, keep making **** up kid. You're the obvious 15 year old here, I've seen plenty of Jordan, and as a player,he ***** all over Lebron.

Really now your gonna make go find the quote... God if making you look stupid didn't make me happy I swear...

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 01:00 PM
"Jordan is the second fastest, athletic, and strongest player to ever play the game only behind Lebron."

Your exact post.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?819419-MJ-vs-Kobe-according-to-Phil-Jackson/page6

3rd post down right here. Yeah you're an idiot.

Swashcuff
05-24-2013, 01:08 PM
"Jordan is the second fastest, athletic, and strongest player to ever play the game only behind Lebron."

Your exact post.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?819419-MJ-vs-Kobe-according-to-Phil-Jackson/page6

3rd post down right here. Yeah you're an idiot.

That's putting it nicely

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:08 PM
1) LeBron didn't have Shaq or any All Star other than Mo.
2) Two bronze medals? You're blaming him when it was a collective amount of NBA players?


Did you watch NBA when Kobe was struggling with the LAL and cried for a trade? That was just 3 years of Kobe playing without a legitimate contending squad and he failed miserably. LeBron went through 7 years of that and never complained. The fact that he made the NBA finals with that squad was a testament of how great a player can be but also how much more it takes than just one great player. If you think LeBron has failed, you're an idiot.Lebron was still on both of those teams. He had superstar help too. So yes he does get blame for losing to a college team. Getting a bronze medal in the Olympics is a joke, especially if your a basketball player. Lebron has two of those for Christ sake. Kobe had one of the worst teams in nba history at that time. Lebrons Cav team>>>>>Kobes Laker team 05-07. You're right Lebron never complained. All he did was go on nation television and **** all over the people who loved him. then skipped town to join his two lovers. Kobe has played for ONE franchise for 17 years straight. Kobe is Loyal, Lebron is not cut from the same fabric.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:10 PM
"Jordan is the second fastest, athletic, and strongest player to ever play the game only behind Lebron."

Your exact post.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?819419-MJ-vs-Kobe-according-to-Phil-Jackson/page6

3rd post down right here. Yeah you're an idiot.

Exactly fool, I never put Jordan on par with Lebron. I clearly said BEHIND! Learn how to read kid.

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 01:12 PM
Exactly fool, I never put Jordan on par with Lebron. I clearly said BEHIND! Learn how to read kid.


Yeah but he's not. Jordan's behind Pippen and Barkley in his era alone.

BTW stop calling people kid it just makes you seem younger. You've called me anywhere from 12-15 like 50 times and it's just showing your own insecurities about age... It's just getting sad now.

mjm07
05-24-2013, 01:16 PM
How much clutch could a Kobe chuck if a Kobe could be clutch?

damn, I keep messin up! :confused:

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 01:17 PM
Also LBJ will end up having more Medals than Kobe and Jordan.

It's funny how you just give Kobe a pass for not even playing in the Olympics, but then you talk **** about LBJ for not winning the gold at 19 lol. Wasn't Kobe throwin up air balls in Utah when he was 19?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgfx-bXsg4

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 01:17 PM
Kobe has played for ONE franchise for 17 years straight. Kobe is Loyal, Lebron is not cut from the same fabric.

How quickly people forget how his selfishness drove Shaq from the Lakers and how quickly he wanted to jump ship when the team was mediocre in the mid-2000s prior to the Gasol trade. Selective memory is a fun tool to make your argument with.

goingfor28
05-24-2013, 01:20 PM
he made a wide open layup with no defense at the rim. paul george over played it. its a layup im pretty sure anyone on here could have made.
if i am down by 1, 10 seconds left, i would rather have kobe 10x out of 10. and i am an adamant laker hater.

Dnovakovic099
05-24-2013, 01:21 PM
Yet, Kobe gets voted into the all nba team. I'm sure you know more about basketball than the voters right?Lebron better than Kobe? So Lebron is a top 6 player now? Lmfao. Lebron fans are to much.



I never said any of that, I the only thing I said Jordan had on Lebron was speed. When did I call Kobe the Goat you Imbecile, keep making **** up kid. You're the obvious 15 year old here, I've seen plenty of Jordan, and as a player,he ***** all over Lebron.

I know you probably get this a lot, but man do I hope you are a troll or just 12 years old. If you aren't you don't have much to look forward to in life. Im from Chicago and hate Lebron, but you my man are something else.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 01:29 PM
I am so shocked the illusionist felt the need to come in here and spew his crap again...

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:34 PM
Yeah but he's not. Jordan's behind Pippen and Barkley in his era alone.

BTW stop calling people kid it just makes you seem younger. You've called me anywhere from 12-15 like 50 times and it's just showing your own insecurities about age... It's just getting sad now.

False. Jordan in the combination of Strength, Speed, and Athleticism is only surpassed by Lebron.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:35 PM
Also LBJ will end up having more Medals than Kobe and Jordan.

It's funny how you just give Kobe a pass for not even playing in the Olympics, but then you talk **** about LBJ for not winning the gold at 19 lol. Wasn't Kobe throwin up air balls in Utah when he was 19?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgfx-bXsg4

So having bronze medals as an American Basketball player is a good thing to you?:laugh2:

Well, Kobe was a late bloomer and we all know that.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:37 PM
How quickly people forget how his selfishness drove Shaq from the Lakers and how quickly he wanted to jump ship when the team was mediocre in the mid-2000s prior to the Gasol trade. Selective memory is a fun tool to make your argument with.

Kobe didn't drive out anyone dude. Shaq couldn't handle the fact that the team was becoming Kobe's. Kobe just set a fire under management to make a move. No way would Kobe go anywhere else. He loves So Cal too much.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 01:38 PM
How quickly people forget how his selfishness drove Shaq from the Lakers and how quickly he wanted to jump ship when the team was mediocre in the mid-2000s prior to the Gasol trade. Selective memory is a fun tool to make your argument with.

in sports, loyal means for a player who was drafted into an ideal scenario. Or a complete idiot who just wants the extra money.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:38 PM
I know you probably get this a lot, but man do I hope you are a troll or just 12 years old. If you aren't you don't have much to look forward to in life. Im from Chicago and hate Lebron, but you my man are something else.

;)

Pierzynski4Prez
05-24-2013, 01:40 PM
Lebron is good at basketball. I think most people get that at this point.

ztilzer31
05-24-2013, 01:40 PM
False. Jordan in the combination of Strength, Speed, and Athleticism is only surpassed by Lebron.

Yes only believed by you.... Plus considering you don't have size up there as an attribute that is just plain out stupid.

Nate Robinson is more of an athlete with more speed, and is stronger than Jordan. Jordan won by leverage and being smart. It wasn't just his strength it was his size.. However Pippen was bigger, and just as strong, quick, and athletic.

What about Blake Griffin? You don't think he can jump higher? Might be slightly slower, but with his much bigger frame I'd be shocked if Jordan was stronger...

ManRam
05-24-2013, 01:45 PM
confirmation bias really destroys most people's ability to be objective about clutchness.

it's a tiresome comparison and i hate to bring it up because everything seems to turn into it, but an example would be kobe. kobe had amazing team success early in his career, and made a few big shots as well. he got labeled as a clutch performer, and he certainly deserved a lot of that. so every time he did something "clutch" we'd be like "oh man, there goes kobe and his clutchness again". when he'd fail, we'd just ignore it and move on.

lebron dealt with the opposite. he didn't win early on in his career, even despite some amazing "clutch" play in cleveland. he never got the credit early on, so whenever he'd fail, we'd be like "oh man, there goes lebron and his choking ways again".

the reality is that he really never was as bad as many labeled him to be because we'd just be focusing on the bad.

statistically he's been just about as clutch as most every other superstar out there for a while. there are a few that rank ahead of him, but it's not by much.

i think now that he's won a ring people give him a little bit more of a pass so he's being more fairly judged. because statistically there is nothing separating from the kobe's of the world in terms of Clutch Shots Made/Clutch Shots Attempted

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 01:46 PM
I think he's clutch but I do this he has tendency to hide from the shot and he gets pretty shook at times late in games. Two straight possessions before the final possession, LeBron parked in the corner and they let Ray Allen try to drive off a curl. I understand Spo calls the plays but LeBron shouldn't be OK with being a decoy in potential game-winning plays.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 01:51 PM
Yes only believed by you.... Plus considering you don't have size up there as an attribute that is just plain out stupid.

Nate Robinson is more of an athlete with more speed and is stronger than Jordan. , Jordan won by leverage and being smart. It wasn't just his strength it was his size.. However Pippen was bigger, and just as strong, quick, and athletic.

What about Blake Griffin? You don't think he can jump higher? Might be slightly slower, but with his much bigger frame I'd be shocked if Jordan was stronger...:facepalm: Don't quote me anymore, I'm done here.

Swashcuff
05-24-2013, 01:56 PM
I think he's clutch but I do this he has tendency to hide from the shot and he gets pretty shook at times late in games. Two straight possessions before the final possession, LeBron parked in the corner and they let Ray Allen try to drive off a curl. I understand Spo calls the plays but LeBron shouldn't be OK with being a decoy in potential game-winning plays.

Kobe deferred to Horry/Fisher/Fox at times Jordan deferred to Kerr/Kukoc at times what's wrong with LeBron not taking those shots, he's not going to take every single clutch shot every single time down the floor. You have to show some trust in your coaches and your teammates at some point if you want to be successful.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Yet, Kobe gets voted into the all nba team. I'm sure you know more about basketball than the voters right?Lebron better than Kobe? So Lebron is a top 6 player now? Lmfao. Lebron fans are to much.

So how is LeBron ahead of Kobe in MVP Award Shares?


Lebron was still on both of those teams. He had superstar help too. So yes he does get blame for losing to a college team. Getting a bronze medal in the Olympics is a joke, especially if your a basketball player. Lebron has two of those for Christ sake. Kobe had one of the worst teams in nba history at that time. Lebrons Cav team>>>>>Kobes Laker team 05-07. You're right Lebron never complained. All he did was go on nation television and **** all over the people who loved him. then skipped town to join his two lovers. Kobe has played for ONE franchise for 17 years straight. Kobe is Loyal, Lebron is not cut from the same fabric.

LeBron has one bronze medal & 2 Gold Medals.. He was a rookie with half a team of rookies, the third best player on that squad was Stephon Marbury lol


he made a wide open layup with no defense at the rim. paul george over played it. its a layup im pretty sure anyone on here could have made.
if i am down by 1, 10 seconds left, i would rather have kobe 10x out of 10. and i am an adamant laker hater.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3nvSyuWEg

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 02:13 PM
So how is LeBron ahead of Kobe in MVP Award Shares?

MVPs are the least irrelevant award.

LeBron has one bronze medal & 2 Gold Medals.. He was a rookie with half a team of rookies, the third best player on that squad was Stephon Marbury lol
His golds have nothing to do with him having two BRONZE medals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3nvSyuWEg

MVPs are the least irrelevant award.

His Gold medals have nothing to do with him having two BRONZE medals. Lebron didn't have enough help on the Olympic team? Lmfao!!! Do you know who they were facing? Why is everyone on this site so clueless!

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 02:17 PM
Kobe deferred to Horry/Fisher/Fox at times Jordan deferred to Kerr/Kukoc at times what's wrong with LeBron not taking those shots, he's not going to take every single clutch shot every single time down the floor. You have to show some trust in your coaches and your teammates at some point if you want to be successful.

Kobe and MJ didn't park in the corner and let Fox come off a curl. They would have the ball, collapse a defense and make the right play if their sharp shooters were wide open for a catch and shoot. LeBron handed off two straight possessions and was a decoy in the corner, this was after making a few bonehead plays and a really bad turnover late in the 4th. When he makes a couple bad plays late in games he has tendency to hide a little bit.

I understand that you have to take plays off and let your teammates find a rhythm - but not with under a minute left when your trailing in the conference finals.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 02:20 PM
The game thread was all about LeBron hiding until the final 3 secs, even Heat fans were pointing it out and were pissed about it, Indy makes an epic fail and nobody remembers it but there is definitely a minor issue there that has continued to rear its ugly head throughout LeBron's career. His greatness usually overcomes but he gets shook out there at times whereas guys like Kobe could have an awful game but they are not hiding from the responsibility to win the game in that final possession.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 02:21 PM
I understand deferring to Wade, or kicking it out to a wide open shooter, but if your the best player on the planet you don't park in the corner and let Ray Allen try to take his man off the dribble back to back possessions with the game on the line.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 02:22 PM
MVPs are the least irrelevant award.

His Gold medals have nothing to do with him having two BRONZE medals. Lebron didn't have enough help on the Olympic team? Lmfao!!! Do you know who they were facing? Why is everyone on this site so clueless!

He came in the league in 2003.. He played in 04, 08, & 12.. Where are you getting this second bronze medal from?

They are irrelevant to Kobe fans because he wasn't good enough to get more than one that he clearly didn't deserve lol

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 02:23 PM
The game thread was all about LeBron hiding until the final 3 secs, even Heat fans were pointing it out and were pissed about it, Indy makes an epic fail and nobody remembers it but there is definitely a minor issue there that has continued to rear its ugly head throughout LeBron's career. His greatness usually overcomes but he gets shook out there at times whereas guys like Kobe could have an awful game but they are not hiding from the responsibility to win the game in that final possession.

This. I've always said that if Lebron had heart and the right mentality he could have been Goat.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 02:25 PM
He came in the league in 2003.. He played in 04, 08, & 12.. Where are you getting this second bronze medal from?

They are irrelevant to Kobe fans because he wasn't good enough to get more than one that he clearly didn't deserve lol

^ This guys doesn't know that Lebron has a second Bronze medal:laugh2:
Kobe one Gold?:laugh2:

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 02:27 PM
^ This guys doesn't know that Lebron has a second Bronze medal:laugh2:
Kobe one Gold?:laugh2:

What year was it?

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 02:28 PM
This. I've always said that if Lebron had heart and the right mentality he could have been Goat.

I think he still can be, just because hes that damn good, but he will be the only guy on that P4P GOAT list that wasn't a stone cold killer, and he will be an anomaly in that sense. LeBron has his clutch moments, and overall he makes the game winning play more often than not, but you can tell he doesn't like being on an island out there with the game on the line, he prefers to blend in and has tendency to hide from the responsibility to win the game when its on the line.

Its not even about taking the last shot, its about making the last play. LeBron saved the day with 2 secs left but if Indy doesn't completely **** the bed on that last defensive possession, all were talking about is LeBron's chokejob in the final minutes.

LeBron will be a top 3 GOAT, but he will be the only guy on that top 5 list who had questions about his killer instinct and confidence with the game on the line.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 02:36 PM
What year was it?

Do research son. 06

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 02:37 PM
I think he still can be, just because hes that damn good, but he will be the only guy on that P4P GOAT list that wasn't a stone cold killer, and he will be an anomaly in that sense. LeBron has his clutch moments, and overall he makes the game winning play more often than not, but you can tell he doesn't like being on an island out there with the game on the line, he prefers to blend in and has tendency to hide from the responsibility to win the game when its on the line.

Its not even about taking the last shot, its about making the last play. LeBron saved the day with 2 secs left but if Indy doesn't completely **** the bed on that last defensive possession, all were talking about is LeBron's chokejob in the final minutes.

LeBron will be a top 3 GOAT, but he will be the only guy on that top 5 list who had questions about his killer instinct and confidence with the game on the line.

I think 5-8 range is more likely.

TheIlladelph16
05-24-2013, 02:39 PM
What year was it?

They got Bronze in the FIBA games I believe in 06. Honestly, his criticism doesn't matter. Lebron has been in the league almost ten years less than Kobe and he has played in more Olympic games than him. That says enough for me.

Clippersfan86
05-24-2013, 02:40 PM
I think it's a non issue because people came down off the "Lebron folds in the clutch" viewpoint last year after he got his redemption and led his team to the NBA championship, carrying the team on his back. As a whole he's ALWAYS been a clutch player. Remember his 28 of the final 30 points in the ECF vs the Pistons?

Game winners are the WORST way to assess clutch IMO because they are highly misleading. For example game winners say Kobe is extremely UNCLUTCH but what that fails to address is how Kobe regularly brings the Lakers back into games with huge 4th quarters of 20+ points. Doesn't matter if he hits the game winner, he made tons of clutch plays to get the Lakers back in it.

That's why I prefer stats like last 5 minutes of games, in a close game etc.

Swashcuff
05-24-2013, 02:49 PM
Kobe and MJ didn't park in the corner and let Fox come off a curl. They would have the ball, collapse a defense and make the right play if their sharp shooters were wide open for a catch and shoot. LeBron handed off two straight possessions and was a decoy in the corner, this was after making a few bonehead plays and a really bad turnover late in the 4th. When he makes a couple bad plays late in games he has tendency to hide a little bit.

I understand that you have to take plays off and let your teammates find a rhythm - but not with under a minute left when your trailing in the conference finals.

But Kobe AND Michael did just that in key instances late in games they gave potential game winning shots to other players. You JUST you understand the coach drew it up but apparently you don't. You have weapons at your disposal why not use it?

I don't understand how LeBron is hiding. He made a bad play he adjusted and his team benefitted now you're trying to say he was wrong because of the fact that he didn't take matters into his own hands, you have Bosh, Allen and Wade on your team for a reason why not use them? LeBron is smart enough to understand that forcing the issue doesn't make you score every time down the floor can't you see that?

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 02:51 PM
Do research son. 06

Oh my bad, I only refer to the Olympics

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 02:59 PM
I think he still can be, just because hes that damn good, but he will be the only guy on that P4P GOAT list that wasn't a stone cold killer, and he will be an anomaly in that sense. LeBron has his clutch moments, and overall he makes the game winning play more often than not, but you can tell he doesn't like being on an island out there with the game on the line, he prefers to blend in and has tendency to hide from the responsibility to win the game when its on the line.

Its not even about taking the last shot, its about making the last play. LeBron saved the day with 2 secs left but if Indy doesn't completely **** the bed on that last defensive possession, all were talking about is LeBron's chokejob in the final minutes.

LeBron will be a top 3 GOAT, but he will be the only guy on that top 5 list who had questions about his killer instinct and confidence with the game on the line.

You can say this with a lot of clutch moments, give the man his props

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 02:59 PM
They got Bronze in the FIBA games I believe in 06. Honestly, his criticism doesn't matter. Lebron has been in the league almost ten years less than Kobe and he has played in more Olympic games than him. That says enough for me.

While he failed to win Gold twice in a sport where Gold is a standard for Team USA.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 03:01 PM
I think it's a non issue because people came down off the "Lebron folds in the clutch" viewpoint last year after he got his redemption and led his team to the NBA championship, carrying the team on his back. As a whole he's ALWAYS been a clutch player. Remember his 28 of the final 30 points in the ECF vs the Pistons?

Game winners are the WORST way to assess clutch IMO because they are highly misleading. For example game winners say Kobe is extremely UNCLUTCH but what that fails to address is how Kobe regularly brings the Lakers back into games with huge 4th quarters of 20+ points. Doesn't matter if he hits the game winner, he made tons of clutch plays to get the Lakers back in it.

That's why I prefer stats like last 5 minutes of games, in a close game etc.

This. Kobe has to take 35 foot three sometimes to help us come back. Raw stats when it comes to "clutch shots" don't tell half the story.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 03:02 PM
Oh my bad, I only refer to the Olympics

Fiba is basically the same thing.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 03:04 PM
While he failed to win Gold twice in a sport where Gold is a standard for Team USA.

You really hate the fact that he is above Kobe in points, rebounds, assists, steals, & blocks per game? Mad that he shoots much better percentages? Mad that he has more MVP's? Will have more Finals MVP's?

It's okay dude Kobe still has a higher career high if that cheers you up

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 03:05 PM
Fiba is basically the same thing.

Actually NBA stars don't take it as serious... Look at the 2008 & 2012 Olympic Roster & then look at the 2010 FIBA Roster, none of them clearly cared to take part in it

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 03:07 PM
While he failed to win Gold twice in a sport where Gold is a standard for Team USA.
Dude.... who cares? Lebron was 19 ****ing years old in 2004 when they won bronze. That team had several veteran players on that team who could have stepped up and didn't. Why aren't you putting as much blame on Duncan, Iverson or Marbury for not stepping up? Also, that gold medal Argentinian team was pretty stacked: Ginobili, Delfino, Scola, Oberto, Nocioni. And they were far more accustomed to playing as a team in international competition than ****ing 19-year-old Lebron James was.

Ripping a 28-year-old for not winning gold medal in a sport with seasoned in international players when he was only 19 and had been in the league for like 10 seconds is completely ********. Also, I find it ridiculous that you're ripping Lebron for not winning a gold, but giving Kobe a complete pass for not even playing on the US National Team until 2008. That's just mind numblingly dumb.

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 03:10 PM
This. Kobe has to take 35 foot three sometimes to help us come back. Raw stats when it comes to "clutch shots" don't tell half the story.

Yeah, and he misses way more of those than he makes. I'd MUCH rather have Lebron taking it to the hole with the clock expiring than Kobe taking a contested, off-balance 35-foot jumper with time expiring. Lebron is a superior decision maker with the ball in his hands. Period.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 03:18 PM
You really hate the fact that he is above Kobe in points, rebounds, assists, steals, & blocks per game? Mad that he shoots much better percentages? Mad that he has more MVP's? Will have more Finals MVP's?

It's okay dude Kobe still has a higher career high if that cheers you up

Yeah ignore my post.lol

Chronz
05-24-2013, 03:19 PM
Fiba is basically the same thing.

FIBA is an organization. The tournaments are the events.

Those events are known as the Olympics and the World Championships.

Plz use proper terminology, you sound like an idiot hating the way you do.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 03:20 PM
Actually NBA stars don't take it as serious... Look at the 2008 & 2012 Olympic Roster & then look at the 2010 FIBA Roster, none of them clearly cared to take part in it

Oh Lebron cared alright. He tried to win gold and got stomped. :laugh2: Anything else?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 03:30 PM
Dude.... who cares? Lebron was 19 ****ing years old in 2004 when they won bronze. That team had several veteran players on that team who could have stepped up and didn't. Why aren't you putting as much blame on Duncan, Iverson or Marbury for not stepping up? Also, that gold medal Argentinian team was pretty stacked: Ginobili, Delfino, Scola, Oberto, Nocioni. And they were far more accustomed to playing as a team in international competition than ****ing 19-year-old Lebron James was.


Ripping a 28-year-old for not winning gold medal in a sport with seasoned in international players when he was only 19 and had been in the league for like 10 seconds is completely ********. Also, I find it ridiculous that you're ripping Lebron for not winning a gold, but giving Kobe a complete pass for not even playing on the US National Team until 2008. That's just mind numblingly dumb.

Who cares if Lebron and co. didn't bring home gold? Uhh I do, as should every other American.

I don't know what you're talking about. I have stated already I put a lot of blame on Duncan. No way he should have lost to any other team in the world with that squad. Are you really trying to say an Argentinian team is expected to take out team USA? Give me a break. Lebron also tried to win Gold again in 06 and received a second Bronze. Kobe had problems in 04 so I don't blame him to much for missing. If it weren't for Kobe having the balls to take over in 08, Lebron would have been 0-3 in attempts for Gold at that point.




My second point flew right over your head.



Yeah, and he misses way more of those than he makes. I'd MUCH rather have Lebron taking it to the hole with the clock expiring than Kobe taking a contested, off-balance 35-foot jumper with time expiring. Lebron is a superior decision maker with the ball in his hands. Period.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 03:39 PM
Yeah ignore my post.lol

It's a bronze medal, he was just a rookie on 2004 squad & 2006 was also young and a lot of them weren't even all stars yet (or ever)

& in 2006, Melo, Dwight, CP3, & Bosh weren't anywhere near the players you see now.. Then you add guys like Brad Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Shane Battier? lol... But of course none of that matters and it is all LeBron's fault

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 03:39 PM
Yeah ignore my post.lol

Yeah ignore the thread topic lol

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 03:44 PM
Yeah ignore the thread topic lol

Seriously, he will go from thread to thread with the same nonsense. He just can't stand that people like Lebron and think that he will likely end up over Kobe all time. Any time one of them is mentioned he trolls as much as possible. We are in a thread about Lebron's playoff clutch statistics compared to others and he is talking about bronze medals from like 8 years ago.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 03:45 PM
But Kobe AND Michael did just that in key instances late in games they gave potential game winning shots to other players. You JUST you understand the coach drew it up but apparently you don't. You have weapons at your disposal why not use it?

I don't understand how LeBron is hiding. He made a bad play he adjusted and his team benefitted now you're trying to say he was wrong because of the fact that he didn't take matters into his own hands, you have Bosh, Allen and Wade on your team for a reason why not use them? LeBron is smart enough to understand that forcing the issue doesn't make you score every time down the floor can't you see that?

Not with the game on the line. Its not like the play was drawn up to get Ray off a curl screen for an open 3, he tried to drive to his left hand two straight possessions and it didn't work.

I completely understand the importance of getting 'the others' going, but LeBron was hiding two straight possessions with the game on the line because he was shook after a couple bad turnovers. It was blatantly obvious to everyone in the game thread watching the game, including Heat fans. This is not just a Knicks hater talking and I think I'm being pretty fair acknowledging that this is a very MINOR issue, but its still out there, and there will be times his greatness doesn't overcome his tendency to get timid with the game on the line after a couple poor possessions.

Kobe and MJ never parked in the corner to let Rick Fox or Steve Kerr or any other role player take his man off the dribble for the win. Come on dude. I already said deferring to Wade and clearing out is one thing, deferring to Scottie and clearing out is one thing, letting Shaq work his magic and clearing out is one thing. Kicking it out to those 'others' after the D collapses is one thing.

Clearing out with the game on the line TWICE IN A ROW for a forced Ray Allen left hand drive off the dribble is a completely different animal. Spoelstra doesn't draw that play up if LeBron is demanding the ball. Your best player should have his fingerprints on the final plays of the game. That is not the time to clear out unless its for a bonafide Robin like Wade.

At the end of the game, the announcer even pointed out 'LeBron was pretty much running that timeout'. LeBron has a say in what plays get drawn up as he damn well should.

tredigs
05-24-2013, 03:48 PM
All this really showed me is how clutch Durant and Dirk were. Specifically KD for doing this in half as many playoffs as the rest of these guys.

I remember this stat being posted a couple weeks ago and it highlighted how KD was like 4-8 in this exact situation in the last 2 playoff runs, meanwhile the rest of the NBA COMBINED was something like 2-17.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Seriously, he will go from thread to thread with the same nonsense. He just can't stand that people like Lebron and think that he will likely end up over Kobe all time. Any time one of them is mentioned he trolls as much as possible. We are in a thread about Lebron's playoff clutch statistics compared to others and he is talking about bronze medals from like 8 years ago.

I think he just read the thread title & replied and once he went back and saw that Kobe was #2 to LeBron he flipped out & resorted to something that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

ghettosean
05-24-2013, 03:54 PM
Not with the game on the line. Its not like the play was drawn up to get Ray off a curl screen for an open 3, he tried to drive to his left hand two straight possessions and it didn't work.

I completely understand the importance of getting 'the others' going, but LeBron was hiding two straight possessions with the game on the line because he was shook after a couple bad turnovers. It was blatantly obvious to everyone in the game thread watching the game, including Heat fans. This is not just a Knicks hater talking and I think I'm being pretty fair acknowledging that this is a very MINOR issue, but its still out there, and there will be times his greatness doesn't overcome his tendency to get timid with the game on the line after a couple poor possessions.

Kobe and MJ never parked in the corner to let Rick Fox or Steve Kerr or any other role player take his man off the dribble for the win. Come on dude. I already said deferring to Wade and clearing out is one thing, deferring to Scottie and clearing out is one thing, letting Shaq work his magic and clearing out is one thing. Kicking it out to those 'others' after the D collapses is one thing.

Clearing out with the game on the line TWICE IN A ROW for a forced Ray Allen left hand drive off the dribble is a completely different animal. Spoelstra doesn't draw that play up if LeBron is demanding the ball. Your best player should have his fingerprints on the final plays of the game. That is not the time to clear out unless its for a bonafide Robin like Wade.

At the end of the game, the announcer even pointed out 'LeBron was pretty much running that timeout'. LeBron has a say in what plays get drawn up as he damn well should.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Followed this thread and some damn good posts sir!

bucketss
05-24-2013, 03:58 PM
lebron haters out in full force.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:04 PM
This is what those who were watching the game were saying before LeBron scores with 2 secs left. He was shook out there, he refused to drive into Hibbert. The numbers where LeBron drove when Hibbert were in the game vs when he wasn't were staggering (I honestly don't remember the #s, would appreciate if someone posted them, they were all over these threads and twitter after the game). He was playing timid and he drove something like 12 times in the minutes Hibbert sat vs something like half that for the 30-40 mins Hibbert was on the court.

Game winners can make you forget the first 47 min and 58 seconds, but there were definitely some reasons to question his mindset late in that game:


The way Bron has been playing this half, I think Pacers win this, he won't make his shot.


Did Lebron really drive it?


lebron is kind of playing like a vagina, idk how they expect to win a championship playing like this,[/B but than again i said the same thing last year.


Wade should have the ball in his hands


Cuz he has been timid this whole game. He refuses to drive it in.


Lebron doesnt want to set foot in the paint.


Why not let Wade run the offense. I think its clear that Lebron wants to hang out in the corner.


Plz give the ball to Wade I'm sick of seeing James camp out on the perimeter. If he doesn't want to attack give it to someone who will.


LeBron looks like he doesn't want to score at all
West kind of screwed Indy this OT

next shot wins the game


At some point Lebron needs to take over on the offensive end and actually score the basketball.

I'm not trying to bash him, but to pretend that its normal for a player of his stature to hide in crunch time of 3rd round playoff games like that is simply not true. I'm not making **** up here. LeBron's lack of aggression and acceptance letting guys who aren't even in the same stratosphere as a player try to seal the deal while he camped in the corner almost, and probably should have, lost them the game.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:05 PM
LeBron hater?

You seemed to agree with my stance with about 1 minute left in the game? I already quoted you on it.

Funny how 1 shot with a sleeping defense can change a whole games worth of perception.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:10 PM
And that was the max amount of quotes I could quote, there is plenty more in the thread coming from Heat fans.

bucketss
05-24-2013, 04:12 PM
LeBron hater?

You seemed to agree with my stance with about 1 minute left in the game? I already quoted you on it.

Funny how 1 shot with a sleeping defense can change a whole games worth of perception.


who cares they won and lebron hit the game winner, lets talk when lebron costs the heat the game that way.

bucketss
05-24-2013, 04:13 PM
lebron is the only player in nba history that gets hated on after dropping a triple double plus game winner SMH

ManRam
05-24-2013, 04:16 PM
it's like, people would have been more impressed if he settled for a contested deep jumper than actually having the balls to drive to the rim and get a better shot. the deep jumper is a lesser shot that too many stars settle for, but more "clutch" in some people's eyes.

it makes no sense.

he got the best shot possible and made it to win the game: clutch

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 04:17 PM
It's a bronze medal, he was just a rookie on 2004 squad & 2006 was also young and a lot of them weren't even all stars yet (or ever)

& in 2006, Melo, Dwight, CP3, & Bosh weren't anywhere near the players you see now.. Then you add guys like Brad Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Shane Battier? lol... But of course none of that matters and it is all LeBron's fault

Excuses galore!
They had plenty of talent. Name the players from the other team:facepalm:

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 04:20 PM
LeBron hater?

You seemed to agree with my stance with about 1 minute left in the game? I already quoted you on it.

Funny how 1 shot with a sleeping defense can change a whole games worth of perception.

PSD for you.

sammyvine
05-24-2013, 04:21 PM
its the same arguments
lebron vs kobe thread...dont you guys get bored?

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 04:23 PM
And that was the max amount of quotes I could quote, there is plenty more in the thread coming from Heat fans.

I predicted wade would get the ball on his first basket, and that he would miss his shot before the second (wasn't expecting a layup). I don't disagree with you necessarily but I think there are a few factors involved as well. First one you mentioned about him not having success vs Hibbert and having the turnover. The pacers were doing a good job with their team defense focused on pushing Lebron where they wanted. I think that this lead to the plays not being called for him, and possibly why he didn't argue.

Another reason could be that he had 5 fouls. Now this isn't an excuse for him to look timid out there but I think he looked hesitant after he got that foul. I'm not sure if it affected his aggressiveness but to me it seemed to be a factor.

Lastly above you are saying that the game winners washed out 47 minutes of play? I am not sure what you mean by this, but this does happen all the time for players where they are given a break when they come up clutch. To me this isn't one of those classic cases though, lets remember he had 30 points and a triple double and played very good defense. He had a fantastic game, it was actually a 2-3 minute stretch that was bad (this is the time when he looked timid) and that's about it. If they lost the game it would have been 2-3 minutes wiping out 45 minutes of great play, it's not the other way around.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:27 PM
Hi my name is Lebron James, I am in the lane and instead of going for a layup I will pass the ball to a covered teammate. Oh yeah, I'm the "the chosen one"


lol, LeBron running to the corner? (Ray Allen play #1)


Man, Indiana's defense is so good. Lebron looks completely stumped. (Ray Allen play #1)


They ran the same exact ****ing play again - LeBron to the corner. (Ray Allen play #2)


why isn't lebron attacking the rim? (Ray Allen play #2)


Serisouly, why did we run the same play back to back? (Ray Allen play #2)


Here comes a Lebron shot outside the paint.


Lebron's made some really bad decisions tonight.


WOW Lebron is Choking.


LeBron is just staying the hell away from the rim. Dude, they will give you the call if you just storm down the pipe

Everyone seemed to be on the same page that LeBron was timid until the game winner erased everyones memory - and lets not act like this is the first time this **** has popped up, and lets not act like he hasn't lost championships or playoff series as a heavy favorite because of his timid play late in games.

Its plain as day to see, you guys can choose to ignore it. The weird part is, LeBron IS clutch, he just hides from the moment too often and his confidence is easily broken compared to other all time greats.

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 04:32 PM
Lebron is the best at being runner up. All you Heat fans can continue acting like Lebron wasn't a loser his whole life before joining a top three team all time. :yawn:

Your an idiot.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:34 PM
I predicted wade would get the ball on his first basket, and that he would miss his shot before the second (wasn't expecting a layup). I don't disagree with you necessarily but I think there are a few factors involved as well. First one you mentioned about him not having success vs Hibbert and having the turnover. The pacers were doing a good job with their team defense focused on pushing Lebron where they wanted. I think that this lead to the plays not being called for him, and possibly why he didn't argue.

Another reason could be that he had 5 fouls. Now this isn't an excuse for him to look timid out there but I think he looked hesitant after he got that foul. I'm not sure if it affected his aggressiveness but to me it seemed to be a factor.

Lastly above you are saying that the game winners washed out 47 minutes of play? I am not sure what you mean by this, but this does happen all the time for players where they are given a break when they come up clutch. To me this isn't one of those classic cases though, lets remember he had 30 points and a triple double and played very good defense. He had a fantastic game, it was actually a 2-3 minute stretch that was bad (this is the time when he looked timid) and that's about it. If they lost the game it would have been 2-3 minutes wiping out 45 minutes of great play, it's not the other way around.

Good points. I honestly am not trying to be a LeBron hater here and I'm trying to keep my anti-Heat bias out of it. I think LeBron's timidness at the end of games, given his stature in this league as a top 5 GOAT is certainly worthy of discussion, its very real, its out there, and his greatness doesn't always overcome it. He's an anomaly in my eyes given how spectacular he is on the court but you see his confidence go in the toilet late in games after a couple shaky plays. I've never seen that happen with other GOATs.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:35 PM
And to clarify, my stance is NOT that LeBron isn't clutch, he damn well might be the most clutch guy in the league, my stance is that despite that and despite his greatness, he has tendency to get timid and shy away from the moment whereas the other GOATs ALL embraced it and thrived in it.

The only reason I quoted everyone is because people here were acting like I was making **** up, when it was evident to every single person watching the game in the game thread, Heat fans, non-Heat fans, LeBron fans and LeBron haters alike.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 04:41 PM
To the guy (d-leethal) saying Lebron was shying away from the moment, I agree he did look timid out on certain plays out there but you have to realize Lebron played the ENTIRE 2nd half + overtime. Of course he took some plays off down the stretch, but I see that more so as him trying to conserve energy for a late push. As fans, we expect Lebron to go full force all the time but it isn't that easy and he's still human. He does get tired. At the end of the day, he was there when it counted. That's all the matters. Now if he failed, of course everyone would be on him. Give the dude a break, he's clutch now. He picked his spots near the end and got the job done.

ManRam
05-24-2013, 04:43 PM
(Ray Allen play #1)

(Ray Allen play #1)

(Ray Allen play #2)

(Ray Allen play #2)

(Ray Allen play #2)


Everyone seemed to be on the same page that LeBron was timid until the game winner erased everyones memory - and lets not act like this is the first time this **** has popped up, and lets not act like he hasn't lost championships or playoff series as a heavy favorite because of his timid play late in games.

Its plain as day to see, you guys can choose to ignore it. The weird part is, LeBron IS clutch, he just hides from the moment too often and his confidence is easily broken compared to other all time greats.

lebron was hesitant to go at hibbert and look to finish. anyone who disagrees with that is wrong. he had EIGHT more shots at the rim when hibbert was off the court (like 12 minutes) than when he was on it (41 minutes I think).

he was taking a lot of lesser shots than he normally takes.

i wouldn't call it hiding from the moment though. you're blasting him for basically not going at hibbert and taking more jumpers. are the 3 other elite scorers (melo, kd, kobe), who take a huge amount of jumpers all the time, also scared of the moment? he would attack the paint, get hibbert to slide and find the open guy. he got countless assists doing just that. he rarely looked to finish his own shot, but rather set up 10 easy baskets by passing.


i don't think he was timid that game. he was breaking down a defense and roy hibbert. and there are ways to do that involving things other than shooting 30 times a game.

he's the best in the game at taking what a defense gives him. he had a game plan and it worked. he got hibbert moving out of position to get other easy looks. creating the highest percentage shots

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 04:44 PM
Also why does everyone respond to the same 3 guys that always disregard Lebron's accomplishments when stats and facts are used? I don't blame the 3 idiots (i wont name them) as much as I blame the people who continue to interact with them. At a certain point, you need to realize that you can't change anyones minds. These same guys will never appreciate Lebron and that's OK. Its their choice. Many people believe and know for a fact that the world is round. If people want to believe the world is flat even AFTER the facts you can't help them. You shake your head and move on. Eventually, natural selection will eliminate them from the gene pool. Of course, natural selection and evolution is something they don't believe in.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 04:47 PM
To the guy (d-leethal) saying Lebron was shying away from the moment, I agree he did look timid out on certain plays out there but you have to realize Lebron played the ENTIRE 2nd half + overtime. Of course he took some plays off down the stretch, but I see that more so as him trying to conserve energy for a late push. As fans, we expect Lebron to go full force all the time but it isn't that easy and he's still human. He does get tired. At the end of the day, he was there when it counted. That's all the matters. Now if he failed, of course everyone would be on him. Give the dude a break, he's clutch now. He picked his spots near the end and got the job done.

IDK man, I don't buy the tired excuse, guys like LeBron do not get the tired excuse. And he was only there when it counted because Indiana fell asleep. I don't think a wide open layup with no defender in front of you erases the last 3-4 mins of a heated playoff game where he went MIA and was hiding from the ball.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 04:47 PM
lebron was hesitant to go at hibbert and look to finish. anyone who disagrees with that is wrong. he had EIGHT more shots at the rim when hibbert was off the court (like 12 minutes) than when he was on it (41 minutes I think).

he was taking a lot of lesser shots than he normally takes.

i wouldn't call it hiding from the moment though. you're blasting him for basically not going at hibbert and taking more jumpers. are the 3 other elite scorers (melo, kd, kobe), who take a huge amount of jumpers all the time, also scared of the moment? he would attack the paint, get hibbert to slide and find the open guy. he got countless assists doing just that. he rarely looked to finish his own shot, but rather set up 10 easy baskets by passing.


i don't think he was timid that game. he was breaking down a defense and roy hibbert. and there are ways to do that involving things other than shooting 30 times a game.

he's the best in the game at taking what a defense gives him. he had a game plan and it worked. he got hibbert moving out of position to get other easy looks. creating the highest percentage shots

Let's not forget that lebron was playing with fouls this game. He couldn't just go into the paint and throw himself at Hibbert and pick up unnecessary fouls that would hurt his team. It makes more sense to sort of pick your spots at that point and not risk fouling out early.

tapajafri
05-24-2013, 04:49 PM
Are you forgetting about Lebron and Wade combination of 3/twenty something in clutch shots since joining forces?

You kids don't really take what Bspn says seriously do you? :laugh: Lebron = Jordan to them. So I guess I know why you guys watch that channel.


you're a delusional idiot with tunnel vision. You're all over espn's nuts when they praise kobe LOOOOOOL

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 04:49 PM
Your an idiot.

Lebron didn't win in the Nba or Over seas for 8 years prior to joining his current Super team.

Chronz
05-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Good points. I honestly am not trying to be a LeBron hater here and I'm trying to keep my anti-Heat bias out of it. I think LeBron's timidness at the end of games, given his stature in this league as a top 5 GOAT is certainly worthy of discussion, its very real, its out there, and his greatness doesn't always overcome it. He's an anomaly in my eyes given how spectacular he is on the court but you see his confidence go in the toilet late in games after a couple shaky plays. I've never seen that happen with other GOATs.

Anomaly compared to whom? Name these other players you've never seen so shaky? Even the clutchest most willing/prolific of shooters can succumb to the pressure of a defense.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 04:52 PM
you're a delusional idiot with tunnel vision. You're all over espn's nuts when they praise kobe LOOOOOOL

I'm delusional because I'm not on the Lebron sac riding train? Espn is a joke.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 04:54 PM
IDK man, I don't buy the tired excuse, guys like LeBron do not get the tired excuse. And he was only there when it counted because Indiana fell asleep. I don't think a wide open layup with no defender in front of you erases the last 3-4 mins of a heated playoff game where he went MIA and was hiding from the ball.

C'mon the last 3-4 minutes, Lebron was there. I read an article that said that during the last play of regulation w/ 0.7 secs left he wanted Wade to inbound the ball to him so he could shoot over the smaller Hill except Wade passed to Allen instead. That's not Lebron's fault, it's Wade's fault for not giving him the ball. Likewise, on the last play in OT, Battier threw in the ball to Lebron and Bosh said that he knew Lebron would take the shot and not pass it off and he was just there as a decoy.

What else do people want from Lebron. Why isn't he allowed to take some plays off. Isn't that the reason he left Cleveland? In Cleveland he couldn't take plays off or else his team would lose. Hence, why he joined the Heat. I'm not saying that he wasn't timid at times but trying to poke holes in a guy's game who notched a triple double with the game winning shot in a playoff game is absurd.

Again, if he doesn't make that game winning shot, then you can go ahead and rip him as much as you want. In the end though, his strategy worked and they're up 1-0. What else do people want?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 04:54 PM
IDK man, I don't buy the tired excuse, guys like LeBron do not get the tired excuse. And he was only there when it counted because Indiana fell asleep. I don't think a wide open layup with no defender in front of you erases the last 3-4 mins of a heated playoff game where he went MIA and was hiding from the ball.

On PSD it does.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 04:57 PM
On PSD it does.

Who are you again? I was having a reasonable discussion with D-Leethal, not you. Please refrain from jumping into conversations you are not apart of. Thank you, have a nice day.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 05:00 PM
Who are you again? I was having a reasonable discussion with D-Leethal, not you. Please refrain from jumping into conversations you are not apart of. Thank you, have a nice day.

This is a debating forum Jr. Cry some more.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 05:02 PM
lebron was hesitant to go at hibbert and look to finish. anyone who disagrees with that is wrong. he had EIGHT more shots at the rim when hibbert was off the court (like 12 minutes) than when he was on it (41 minutes I think).

he was taking a lot of lesser shots than he normally takes.

i wouldn't call it hiding from the moment though. you're blasting him for basically not going at hibbert and taking more jumpers. are the 3 other elite scorers (melo, kd, kobe), who take a huge amount of jumpers all the time, also scared of the moment? he would attack the paint, get hibbert to slide and find the open guy. he got countless assists doing just that. he rarely looked to finish his own shot, but rather set up 10 easy baskets by passing.


i don't think he was timid that game. he was breaking down a defense and roy hibbert. and there are ways to do that involving things other than shooting 30 times a game.

he's the best in the game at taking what a defense gives him. he had a game plan and it worked. he got hibbert moving out of position to get other easy looks. creating the highest percentage shots

I'm strictly talking crunch time here when the game was tied and it was money time, I'm not going to sit here and say he didn't have a tremendous game, the fact that he had a tremendous game speaks to my point of how timid he can get after a bad play or 2.

I'm not even talking being on the perimeter taking jumpshots, I'm talking clearing out and not even having your fingerprints on the possession while guys who aren't in the same stratosphere as you as a player were trying to make plays that they aren't capable of making to win the game. Thats just unacceptable.

His confidence shouldn't waver the way it does after he makes a bad play. I mean Paul George had a horrible turnover than comes back and demands the ball for the 3 to put it into OT. LeBron had a bad turnover and directly after that he parked in the corner while watching Ray Allen put up a forced contested shot off the dribble 1x and than hid in the corner for the same play again while the possession led to Battier jacking up a contested 40 footer. At that point in time, those plays WERE the game. He wanted no part of the ball on those two possessions and those two possessions would have sealed the deal, and he wanted no part of either of them. Its not like with 40 secs left in a tie/1 point game he was like "its alright, I'll still have a chance with 2 seconds left", at that point in time that WAS the chance and he wanted no part of it.

Indy fell asleep and gave him a layup FTW, that doesn't change what we saw in those final 3-4 minutes. LeBron should be held to a different standard and that should be unacceptable - judging by Heat fans responses while it was going on before we knew the miracle layup they agree with me.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 05:02 PM
Good points. I honestly am not trying to be a LeBron hater here and I'm trying to keep my anti-Heat bias out of it. I think LeBron's timidness at the end of games, given his stature in this league as a top 5 GOAT is certainly worthy of discussion, its very real, its out there, and his greatness doesn't always overcome it. He's an anomaly in my eyes given how spectacular he is on the court but you see his confidence go in the toilet late in games after a couple shaky plays. I've never seen that happen with other GOATs.


And to clarify, my stance is NOT that LeBron isn't clutch, he damn well might be the most clutch guy in the league, my stance is that despite that and despite his greatness, he has tendency to get timid and shy away from the moment whereas the other GOATs ALL embraced it and thrived in it.

The only reason I quoted everyone is because people here were acting like I was making **** up, when it was evident to every single person watching the game in the game thread, Heat fans, non-Heat fans, LeBron fans and LeBron haters alike.

I haven't really seen enough of your posts in general to know if your one of the types with an agenda or bias. In this case specifically I think your points have been pretty valid though (coming from a lebron fan). You definitely aren't making it up as I had similar feelings before the last shots. I wouldn't say he's the most clutch player in the league but he is definitely more "clutch" than many people seem to give him credit for.

I don't know about the timidness or shying away thing necessarily, but do think there is something there worth discussing. I have seen many of the greats go through last few minutes of the game without making a huge impact (not most of the time but there are certainly games where it happens for everyone). When it happens to Lebron it seems to get pointed out a lot more often though, probably because everything he does has been magnified since he was in high school. I am not so sure how much more often this happens to Lebron than others but I do think it is a little more often as you stated.

Part of this to me is the idea of a "killer" the most recent wing players have gotten which Lebron doesn't really fit into. When talking about this the two recent great wings thought about are Kobe and Jordan. I think that the problem with comparing their mentality and approach to the final minutes with Lebron is their clearly different styles. Lebron (for better or worse) makes the best basketball play no matter what the situation. This has led him to passing up a final shot to a wide open shooter, or even looking "timid" at times allowing his team to take shots when he is off (most of the time he is setting them up, but now he has help capable of doing it on their own at times). To me this is where the timid label comes from and why people think he isn't clutch. Now sure there is an argument to be made that he needs to change this style to be thought of as less timid, but then again how many times has kobe been cold and continued to shoot his team out of games? Lebron really doesn't do that, he gives his teammates a chance to win or lose the game when he is struggling (while still affecting the game in other ways than scoring). I am not saying that one style is better or worse than the other, just that it goes along with theirs style of play. One gets labeled a chucker when they lose, the other gets labeled as too timid.

bucketss
05-24-2013, 05:03 PM
you're a delusional idiot with tunnel vision. You're all over espn's nuts when they praise kobe LOOOOOOL

lolololol at nickdymes quote i had to press it to see for sure if he wrote that, cottt damn kobephiles are delusional.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 05:04 PM
What I think people don't understand with Lebron is that there were some factors in play for some of his timid play

1) He was in foul trouble this game. (a rarity, I know). He had to adjust his game accordingly, and pick his spots
2) He played the entire 2nd half + OT. I know we see Lebron as a cyborg but it doesn't mean he doesn't get tired. He did cramp up last year in the finals. Did Lebron know he was going to play the entire 2nd half? Sure. But that also means he has to conserve his energy for the stretch when the game matters in the end. He can't run out of gas near the finish line. If anyone here has played hoops you'd know this. It's a marathon not a race.

Last I checked, he had 2 layups (high percentage shots) on the last 2 heat possessions of the game. Again, what's the problem?

bucketss
05-24-2013, 05:05 PM
IDK man, I don't buy the tired excuse, guys like LeBron do not get the tired excuse. And he was only there when it counted because Indiana fell asleep. I don't think a wide open layup with no defender in front of you erases the last 3-4 mins of a heated playoff game where he went MIA and was hiding from the ball.

it does when that open layup was at the buzzer,

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 05:05 PM
Lebron didn't win in the Nba or Over seas for 8 years prior to joining his current Super team.

So whats your point? Thats then this is now. He is the best clutch player in the NBA NOW. Every great player goes through learning curves before being great. Look at MJ.

tapajafri
05-24-2013, 05:07 PM
I'm delusional because I'm not on the Lebron sac riding train? Espn is a joke.

No, you're delusional because you bash ESPN when they praise Lebron, but you nut hug ESPN when they praise kobe. You're on one of the sac-riding trains...the kobe one. So if I were you and I had to pick one sac-riding train to ride, I'd pick the better one with the better player and better stats and better articles WITH stats/facts.... the lebron train.

I could care less about lebron or kobe. I don't care about either of them. It's just funny to see laker fans in denial sputter and whine about the truth. Lebron is just better, and he has been for 5 years, and he will go down as a better player than bryant when it's all said and done. Just accept it and move on. Worry about your own team and not about how great lebron is becoming. It's an unavoidable fact. Get over it.

tapajafri
05-24-2013, 05:08 PM
lolololol at nickdymes quote i had to press it to see for sure if he wrote that, cottt damn kobephiles are delusional.

haha well you know nickdymez....she makes illusionist248 look like a genius

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 05:09 PM
This is a debating forum Jr. Cry some more.

Hahahahahahaha I've engaged with the primitive species and from what I observe his intellectual capacity to communicate lacks with the modern species. It seems deflection is his answer to cordiality. I will attempt to refrain discussion with the foolish creature in the hopes he will return to his homeland on Kobe Island and thus remain there never to be seen again.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 05:11 PM
C'mon the last 3-4 minutes, Lebron was there. I read an article that said that during the last play of regulation w/ 0.7 secs left he wanted Wade to inbound the ball to him so he could shoot over the smaller Hill except Wade passed to Allen instead. That's not Lebron's fault, it's Wade's fault for not giving him the ball. Likewise, on the last play in OT, Battier threw in the ball to Lebron and Bosh said that he knew Lebron would take the shot and not pass it off and he was just there as a decoy.

What else do people want from Lebron. Why isn't he allowed to take some plays off. Isn't that the reason he left Cleveland? In Cleveland he couldn't take plays off or else his team would lose. Hence, why he joined the Heat. I'm not saying that he wasn't timid at times but trying to poke holes in a guy's game who notched a triple double with the game winning shot in a playoff game is absurd.

Again, if he doesn't make that game winning shot, then you can go ahead and rip him as much as you want. In the end though, his strategy worked and they're up 1-0. What else do people want?

I think taking plays off is great for team basketball during quarters 1,2,3. But not 2 straight possessions with the game on the line while you watch your role player teammates try to do things they aren't capable of - 2 straight possessions - and end up with ugly forced bricks both times. Thats not when you take plays off. Thats when the great ones take over, LeBron turned it over and wanted no part of having to follow it up with the ball in his hands. He cleared to the corner and didn't even look for the ball, he knew he wasn't touching it and he accepted that, which to me is unacceptable. LeBron should have his fingerprints in some way on every single possession with under a minute left in the Conference Finals, unless its going to a hot and healthy Dwyane Wade, not a 38 yr old Ray Allen for a dribble drive.

His strategy did work, but he got awfully lucky for it to work. Like I said, if Indiana doesn't completely mess up the coverages on that last possession were singing a different tune, and I don't think an uncontested layup erases what we all saw go down late in that game (and we have seen this same story many times before late in games).

I think LeBron is great, great, great player, I'm not a Kobe fan saying Kobe's better, I don't think Kobe is better, I think LeBron ends up better as an all time great, I think he's clutch as hell, but I think hes similar to Dwight in that he wants everything to be hunky dory, he doesn't want pressure, he doesn't want scrutiny, he doesn't want to be in the pressure position where he faces scrutiny if he doesn't come through. I think when hes confident and on his game, he doesn't sense the pressure and he loves the moment, I think after a bad play or 2, that confidence goes out the window and all of a sudden we see the LeBron who is thinking about what the headlines are gonna be tomorrow instead of thinking 'win the game at all costs' comes out and I think we've seen it many times throughout his career.

It worked for him in game 1 vs Indy, and the Heat will probably win another championship based on talent alone, but we've seen this stuff come back to bite him before when he wasn't so lucky in the end.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 05:13 PM
I'm just going to resort to trolling now as I've realized threads like these go no where and nothing changes. I was a fool to try to engage in an intellectual conversation on these forums. I don't care about the infractions either. I'll just create another account. At least I'm honest when I troll.


Good day.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 05:13 PM
So whats your point? Thats then this is now. He is the best clutch player in the NBA NOW. Every great player goes through learning curves before being great. Look at MJ.

My point was Lebron has never won anything without all the help in the world. He got spanked every year in the nba before joing the Heat. He also lost TWICE to two teams that should have had no chance at beating them. He received TWO shinny Bronze medals for his efforts. Lebron has won two Golds with a super team, and a ring with a Super team. So Lebron has never won anything with out a super team. Any thing else you'd like to know?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 05:15 PM
No, you're delusional because you bash ESPN when they praise Lebron, but you nut hug ESPN when they praise kobe. You're on one of the sac-riding trains...the kobe one. So if I were you and I had to pick one sac-riding train to ride, I'd pick the better one with the better player and better stats and better articles WITH stats/facts.... the lebron train.

I could care less about lebron or kobe. I don't care about either of them. It's just funny to see laker fans in denial sputter and whine about the truth. Lebron is just better, and he has been for 5 years, and he will go down as a better player than bryant when it's all said and done. Just accept it and move on. Worry about your own team and not about how great lebron is becoming. It's an unavoidable fact. Get over it.

When do I nut hug Espn?

Well that's your opinion. Lebron will most likely never enter my top 5.

SwatTeam
05-24-2013, 05:16 PM
I think taking plays off is great for team basketball during quarters 1,2,3. But not 2 straight possessions with the game on the line while you watch your role player teammates try to do things they aren't capable of - 2 straight possessions - and end up with ugly forced bricks both times. Thats not when you take plays off. Thats when the great ones take over, LeBron turned it over and wanted no part of having to follow it up with the ball in his hands. He cleared to the corner and didn't even look for the ball, he knew he wasn't touching it and he accepted that, which to me is unacceptable. LeBron should have his fingerprints in some way on every single possession with under a minute left in the Conference Finals, unless its going to a hot and healthy Dwyane Wade, not a 38 yr old Ray Allen for a dribble drive.

His strategy did work, but he got awfully lucky for it to work. Like I said, if Indiana doesn't completely mess up the coverages on that last possession were singing a different tune, and I don't think an uncontested layup erases what we all saw go down late in that game (and we have seen this same story many times before late in games).

I think LeBron is great, great, great player, I'm not a Kobe fan saying Kobe's better, I don't think Kobe is better, I think LeBron ends up better as an all time great, I think he's clutch as hell, but I think hes similar to Dwight in that he wants everything to be hunky dory, he doesn't want pressure, he doesn't want scrutiny, he doesn't want to be in the pressure position where he faces scrutiny if he doesn't come through. I think when hes confident and on his game, he doesn't sense the pressure and he loves the moment, I think after a bad play or 2, that confidence goes out the window and all of a sudden we see the LeBron who is thinking about what the headlines are gonna be tomorrow instead of thinking 'win the game at all costs' comes out and I think we've seen it many times throughout his career.

It worked for him in game 1 vs Indy, and the Heat will probably win another championship based on talent alone, but we've seen this stuff come back to bite him before when he wasn't so lucky in the end.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion.

D-Leethal
05-24-2013, 05:17 PM
I'm out fellas, thanks for the civilized discussion, and I honestly believe this is an interesting talking point more than I'm trying to be a hater. I think its real and worthy of debate. Enjoy the long weekend y'all.

jerellh528
05-24-2013, 05:17 PM
It's not that lebron statistically is not clutch, its that he defers from those moments as much as possible because he stays away from any possibility of doing something that would ruin his image as best player or make him look bad, ex: missing a shot that would cost his team the game, dunk contests, you know, things that expose him.

ManRam
05-24-2013, 05:19 PM
Also why does everyone respond to the same 3 guys that always disregard Lebron's accomplishments when stats and facts are used? I don't blame the 3 idiots (i wont name them) as much as I blame the people who continue to interact with them. At a certain point, you need to realize that you can't change anyones minds. These same guys will never appreciate Lebron and that's OK. Its their choice. Many people believe and know for a fact that the world is round. If people want to believe the world is flat even AFTER the facts you can't help them. You shake your head and move on. Eventually, natural selection will eliminate them from the gene pool. Of course, natural selection and evolution is something they don't believe in.

it's amazing how obsessed some people are with discrediting him for everything he does...and it is clear that it really is just becoming a very select few that continue to bash him for everything. that says something.

they even have the audacity to pretend like those who defend lebron from their crap are a worse type of breed than they are themselves. rather be a fan of an all-time great and a 4 time MVP than focus 99% of my time on the internet seeking out ways to bash him. i think the "dick riders", also known as "fans", are far less terrible than the incessant haters. :shrug:

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 05:22 PM
LeBron will forever be criticized in the clutch, because like KG, he makes the right basketball play, where most fans want to see the superstar take the shot, even if its a completely ill advised, horrible attempt while 2 of his teammates are sitting wide open.

Furthermore, LeBron has entered that polarizing stage, like Kobe or Jordan before him, that if he stabbed someone, he would have his blind defenders, and if he saved a woman from a burning building and delivered her baby, he would still have haters criticizing that he didn't get her out fast enough and that he didn't hold the baby correctly.

ManRam
05-24-2013, 05:23 PM
It's not that lebron statistically is not clutch, its that he defers from those moments as much as possible because he stays away from any possibility of doing something that would ruin his image as best player or make him look bad, ex: missing a shot that would cost his team the game, dunk contests, you know, things that expose him.

i'm not sure we can definitively prove whether he does it out of fear failure or of his image being ruined, or whether it's just his style of play. i mean, he's one of the league's best facilitators. he focuses a lot of his time all game long trying to break down defenses and find the best shot, whether it's for him or others. he did that last night aswell. there are a few times where he actively and clearly defers for no reason, but i've never understood the banter about circumstances where he'll drive, draw three defenders, and then kick it out to a wide open 40% three point shooter for the win. has hero ball (something that fails far more often than not) really clouded our judgement to the point that super stars can't pass to a wide open player in the crunch time?

i think that's unfair.

but i don't deny that he lacks to passion and desire to score late in games that some of the other top players do. but being an unselfish player isn't something to bash a guy about...and there are a few times where he's been too unselfish.


the bottom line: the open man is always the better option than hero ball. lebron gets that.

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 05:24 PM
My point was Lebron has never won anything without all the help in the world. He got spanked every year in the nba before joing the Heat. He also lost TWICE to two teams that should have had no chance at beating them. He received TWO shinny Bronze medals for his efforts. Lebron has won two Golds with a super team, and a ring with a Super team. So Lebron has never won anything with out a super team. Any thing else you'd like to know?

Are you really serious? Lebron got spanked every year? That team he had with the Cavs were horrible with out him, and they lost to the Spurs who were one of the best teams in the last couple decades. So how you come to that conclusion that the Spurs shouldnt of had any shot of beating them is beyond me. Did you even watch bball then?

Your argument is horrible considering Kobe has never won a championship on his own, he wasnt even the best player in the early 2000's when Lakers won all those rings. Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Olajuwon had Drextler, Duncan had Robinson and Parker, KG had Pierce and Allen. You obviously don't watch enough basketball if you didn't know that it takes super teams to win championships. Anything else child that you would like me to educate on?

And btw Lebron has 3 golds.

ManRam
05-24-2013, 05:27 PM
I'm just going to resort to trolling now as I've realized threads like these go no where and nothing changes. I was a fool to try to engage in an intellectual conversation on these forums. I don't care about the infractions either. I'll just create another account. At least I'm honest when I troll.


Good day.

a good lesson to learn. i still think i can impart some clarity and insight to a lot of these people. you think by now i'd realize that most of these people are a lost cause. they've had irrefutable facts thrown in their face time after time now (with some admittedly silly arguments in between) and they haven't budged.

that's just how it is. people let emotions cloud their ability to reason.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 05:46 PM
It's not that lebron statistically is not clutch, its that he defers from those moments as much as possible because he stays away from any possibility of doing something that would ruin his image as best player or make him look bad, ex: missing a shot that would cost his team the game, dunk contests, you know, things that expose him.

^

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 05:51 PM
Are you really serious? Lebron got spanked every year? That team he had with the Cavs were horrible with out him, and they lost to the Spurs who were one of the best teams in the last couple decades. So how you come to that conclusion that the Spurs shouldnt of had any shot of beating them is beyond me. Did you even watch bball then?

Your argument is horrible considering Kobe has never won a championship on his own, he wasnt even the best player in the early 2000's when Lakers won all those rings. Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Olajuwon had Drextler, Duncan had Robinson and Parker, KG had Pierce and Allen. You obviously don't watch enough basketball if you didn't know that it takes super teams to win championships. Anything else child that you would like me to educate on?

And btw Lebron has 3 golds.

Lebron Never won a finals game before joining his current super team, facts are facts.

Really now? Because I remember every hater in the world with "hahahha Kobe will never win without shaq" well guess what, He proved all you haters wrong by almost running off three in a row. Look how all those teams came to be, and then look how cowardly Lebron and co. joined forces. It's beyond despicable.

LeBron has 3 Golds????? In what world?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 05:53 PM
a good lesson to learn. i still think i can impart some clarity and insight to a lot of these people. you think by now i'd realize that most of these people are a lost cause. they've had irrefutable facts thrown in their face time after time now (with some admittedly silly arguments in between) and they haven't budged.

that's just how it is. people let emotions cloud their ability to reason.

+1. It's hard getting through to these Lebronites.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 05:56 PM
Lebron Never won a finals game before joining his current super team, facts are facts.

Really now? Because I remember every hater in the world with "hahahha Kobe will never win without shaq" well guess what, He proved all you haters wrong by almost running off three in a row. Look how all those teams came to be, and then look how cowardly Lebron and co. joined forces. It's beyond despicable.

LeBron has 3 Golds????? In what world?

haha still at it I see. Is this seriously how you spend all day every day? Just continuously bashing one player because people think he's better than your favorite? I mean are you capable of actual basketball discussion or is this literally all you care about?

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 05:58 PM
Lebron Never won a finals game before joining his current super team, facts are facts.

Really now? Because I remember every hater in the world with "hahahha Kobe will never win without shaq" well guess what, He proved all you haters wrong by almost running off three in a row. Look how all those teams came to be, and then look how cowardly Lebron and co. joined forces. It's beyond despicable.

LeBron has 3 Golds????? In what world?

He won Olympic gold in 2008 and 2012 and FIBA Championships in 2007.

And Pau Gasol was on those teams which was during the prime of his career. So for you to say he won on his own is just plain naiive.

jerellh528
05-24-2013, 06:04 PM
He won Olympic gold in 2008 and 2012 and FIBA Championships in 2007.

And Pau Gasol was on those teams which was during the prime of his career. So for you to say he won on his own is just plain naiive.

No crap, nobody has ever won a ring on their own, welcome to real life. The poster was talking about winning one without shaq.

SportsFanatic10
05-24-2013, 06:06 PM
it's funny how this just blows kobe fans minds. cannot compute! must hate hate hate :laugh:...

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 06:07 PM
No crap, nobody has ever won a ring on their own, welcome to real life. The poster was talking about winning one without shaq.

What are you talking about? Read previous posts, you just backed my point you fool, he was saying that Lebron has never won anything on his own and im just giving examples that no one has won anything on there own.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 06:13 PM
haha still at it I see. Is this seriously how you spend all day every day? Just continuously bashing one player because people think he's better than your favorite? I mean are you capable of actual basketball discussion or is this literally all you care about?

Things are slow for me right now,and probably for the next month or so. So I have plenty of time for Debating. Well considering that a lot threads involve Lebron/Kobe, I'm going to be voicing my opinion. How can I have a good basketball discussion if every thread is Lebron ball gobbling contest.

SportsFanatic10
05-24-2013, 06:15 PM
Things are slow for me right now,and probably for the next month or so. So I have plenty of time for trolling. Well considering that a lot threads involve Lebron/Kobe, I'm going to be voicing my opinion. How can I have a good basketball discussion if every thread is Lebron/Kobe ball gobbling contest.

fixed

jerellh528
05-24-2013, 06:16 PM
What are you talking about? Read previous posts, you just backed my point you fool, he was saying that Lebron has never won anything on his own and im just giving examples that no one has won anything on there own.

you were talking about kobe winning on his own because you mentioned he had pau gasol. unless you think pau was on last years heat team?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 06:17 PM
He won Olympic gold in 2008 and 2012 and FIBA Championships in 2007.

And Pau Gasol was on those teams which was during the prime of his career. So for you to say he won on his own is just plain naiive.

The Americas event is pretty weak,but I guess you can count it if you'd like.
Well duh, but Kobe broke away from Shaq and still ran off rings.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 06:19 PM
Things are slow for me right now,and probably for the next month or so. So I have plenty of time for Debating. Well considering that a lot threads involve Lebron/Kobe, I'm going to be voicing my opinion. How can I have a good basketball discussion if every thread is Lebron ball gobbling contest.

Your the one who is bringing up bronze medals from 8 years ago into a thread about Lebron's playoff clutch stats compared to others (as well as in like 2 other threads). Don't even act like you don't spend a large amount of your time/posts bashing lebron or propping kobe (no matter what thread/situation). Seriously all it does is make people hate laker/kobe fans even more, which is totally unfair to majority of them.

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 06:27 PM
you were talking about kobe winning on his own because you mentioned he had pau gasol. unless you think pau was on last years heat team?

HUH?? You are lost. He said Kobe won those back to back championships on his own, and i said Pau was there so he def didnt win on his own.

carruthers32
05-24-2013, 06:28 PM
The Americas event is pretty weak,but I guess you can count it if you'd like.
Well duh, but Kobe broke away from Shaq and still ran off rings.

I only counted it because you counted it on your previous post about the two bronzes. One was Olympics and the other was FIBA.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 06:29 PM
Your the one who is bringing up bronze medals from 8 years ago into a thread about Lebron's playoff clutch stats compared to others (as well as in like 2 other threads). Don't even act like you don't spend a large amount of your time/posts bashing lebron or propping kobe (no matter what thread/situation). Seriously all it does is make people hate laker/kobe fans even more, which is totally unfair to majority of them.

I'm not the one who usually turns the thread into that kind of discussion, but when It does I gladly give my input on it. I actually used to like watching Lebron play before he went to the Heat. I hated him after that, and even more so after joining PSD. So I guess you guys are doing the same thing you're saying I'm doing. So were on this boat together.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 06:31 PM
There is a clear difference between subjective and rational criticism, and just blindly spewing because you hate a player.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 06:32 PM
I only counted it because you counted it on your previous post about the two bronzes. One was Olympics and the other was FIBA.

The other Fiba event is a bigger. Fiba Americas is only 10 teams.

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 06:33 PM
Who cares if Lebron and co. didn't bring home gold? Uhh I do, as should every other American.

I don't know what you're talking about. I have stated already I put a lot of blame on Duncan. No way he should have lost to any other team in the world with that squad. Are you really trying to say an Argentinian team is expected to take out team USA? Give me a break. Lebron also tried to win Gold again in 06 and received a second Bronze. Kobe had problems in 04 so I don't blame him to much for missing. If it weren't for Kobe having the balls to take over in 08, Lebron would have been 0-3 in attempts for Gold at that point.
At this point, you're just reaching, and it's completely ****ing ridiculous. Those US teams in the 90s didn't have nearly as much competition as American teams do today. International basketball is far more popular and has far more talent than it did decades ago. Think about it. How many international players can you name from the 60s and 70s. Now how many can you name today?

To rip Lebron's career for not winning a gold medal in the Olympics as a 19-year-old on a dysfunctional US team against a seasoned, talented Argentinian squad is ****ing insane. Get over yourself and your hate for Lebron.


My second point flew right over your head.
No, it didn't. You just don't understand the concept of shot selection, quite similar to Kobe, actually.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 06:35 PM
The Americas event is pretty weak,but I guess you can count it if you'd like.
Well duh, but Kobe broke away from Shaq and still ran off rings.

Don't forget the part where he cried about his teammates & how horrible his team has looked without Phil Jackson lol

SportsFanatic10
05-24-2013, 06:36 PM
I'm not the one who usually turns the thread into that kind of discussion, but when It does I gladly give my input on it. I actually used to like watching Lebron play before he went to the Heat. I hated him after that, and even more so after joining PSD. So I guess you guys are doing the same thing you're saying I'm doing. So were on this boat together.

:laugh2: what?

Max.This
05-24-2013, 06:39 PM
yeah making layups are tough. He's a bulldozer.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 06:44 PM
At this point, you're just reaching, and it's completely ****ing ridiculous. Those US teams in the 90s didn't have nearly as much competition as American teams do today. International basketball is far more popular and has far more talent than it did decades ago. Think about it. How many international players can you name from the 60s and 70s. Now how many can you name today?

To rip Lebron's career for not winning a gold medal in the Olympics as a 19-year-old on a dysfunctional US team against a seasoned, talented Argentinian squad is ****ing insane. Get over yourself and your hate for Lebron.


No, it didn't. You just don't understand the concept of shot selection, quite similar to Kobe, actually.

Yeah, the Argentinian team should have beat USA down...just look how lopsided the teams were. USA has 0 excuse for losing.

Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>>Manu
Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>Delfino
Wade>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oberto
Team USA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The rest of Argentina.
I don't want to here your sorry excuses.
What about Lebron Bronze in 06?

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 06:44 PM
So Illusionist... How does it feel to know that Kobe is 2nd behind LeBron?

HouRealCoach
05-24-2013, 06:45 PM
yeah making layups are tough. He's a bulldozer.

Patrick Ewing sure does think so

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 06:45 PM
Don't forget the part where he cried about his teammates & how horrible his team has looked without Phil Jackson lol

I would too, if I had one of the worst teams in nba history.

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 06:49 PM
Yeah, the Argentinian team should have beat USA down...just look how lopsided the teams were. USA has 0 excuse for losing.

Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>>Manu
Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>Delfino
Wade>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oberto
Team USA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The rest of Argentina.
I don't want to here your sorry excuses.
What about Lebron Bronze in 06?

Who gives a ****? I fail to see how one year of international competition is a black mark on a player's record. My point was that it was an extremely talented Argentinian team with a ton of NBA talent, and all they had to do was beat the USA one time. Look at all the bad teams in the NBA. Do they go 0-82 every season? **** no! They win games against good teams all the time.

Also, no one gives a **** about FIBA appearances. International teams do, but it hardly matters in the US.

lakerboy
05-24-2013, 06:50 PM
I think he's clutch but I do this he has tendency to hide from the shot and he gets pretty shook at times late in games. Two straight possessions before the final possession, LeBron parked in the corner and they let Ray Allen try to drive off a curl. I understand Spo calls the plays but LeBron shouldn't be OK with being a decoy in potential game-winning plays.

I think this is what bothers people the most, and this is something everybody sees on television that statistics don't cover.

Lebron "used to" look shaky late in the games. Stats doesn't cover it when Lebron makes the extra pass and his teammates miss, especially late in games.

What ESPN forgets is that the public are very forgiving to allstars when they miss the last shot. Forget Kobe, do you remember how many times D-Fish missed a game winning shot? I've seen this a lot, and people never really care. But if you see D-Fish a little nervous after the game, people will be at him!

SportsFanatic10
05-24-2013, 06:51 PM
lol the whole team usa talk is bs. its one game and the international teams have played together more and are skilled players. anything can happen, now losing to them in a best of 7 series is another thing.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 07:22 PM
I'm not the one who usually turns the thread into that kind of discussion, but when It does I gladly give my input on it. I actually used to like watching Lebron play before he went to the Heat. I hated him after that, and even more so after joining PSD. So I guess you guys are doing the same thing you're saying I'm doing. So were on this boat together.

The bold is just a flat out lie. To your other points I would love for you to show me lets say 50 or so posts where all I do is spew nonsense about Kobe. Show me all of the threads that I have derailed by posting about events that happened 5 plus years ago in a completely unrelated topic. Even though I don't like Kobe, I still give him respect because he is an all time great. It would be very easy to discredit Kobe just as much as you do to Lebron.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 07:25 PM
Who gives a ****? I fail to see how one year of international competition is a black mark on a player's record. My point was that it was an extremely talented Argentinian team with a ton of NBA talent, and all they had to do was beat the USA one time. Look at all the bad teams in the NBA. Do they go 0-82 every season? **** no! They win games against good teams all the time.

Also, no one gives a **** about FIBA appearances. International teams do, but it hardly matters in the US.

Any American who cares about basketball should care. "TONS of NBA talent":laugh2: Not winning Gold was a disaster, I don't need you to confirm reality. Yeah, Team USA said "hey guys we don't care about winning Gold, just blow by us we don't care". They tried their hardest and got stomped out. Plain and simple. Keep reaching.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 07:25 PM
lol the whole team usa talk is bs. its one game and the international teams have played together more and are skilled players. anything can happen, now losing to them in a best of 7 series is another thing.

Yeah I'm sure if we lost in 08 and 12 it would be no big deal. You apologist are pathetic.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 07:26 PM
The bold is just a flat out lie. To your other points I would love for you to show me lets say 50 or so posts where all I do is spew nonsense about Kobe. Show me all of the threads that I have derailed by posting about events that happened 5 plus years ago in a completely unrelated topic. Even though I don't like Kobe, I still give him respect because he is an all time great. It would be very easy to discredit Kobe just as much as you do to Lebron.I never said you start or derail anything. :confused:

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 07:31 PM
Any American who cares about basketball should care. "TONS of NBA talent":laugh2: Not winning Gold was a disaster, I don't need you to confirm reality. Yeah, Team USA said "hey guys we don't care about winning Gold, just blow by us we don't care". They tried their hardest and got stomped out. Plain and simple. Keep reaching.
Apparently you do, because you're stuck in some batshit crazy reality in which Lebron is a mediocre basketball player and Kobe is some kind of omnipotent being. You'll use any possible excuse you can to bring the guy down when he has never done a single negative thing to you. You can't use stats, because they completely crush any point you have. You can't use ability, because he's clearly the best basketball player in the world and has been for a decade. And you can't use accolades, because he's got more MVPs than Kobe and Kobe has been in the league far longer.

So, what do you do? You thumb through Lebron's career like a college student thumbing through a textbook for that piece of information which makes your argument valid. You then constantly hammer that one point over and over again refusing to see reason or understand another person's perspective. You're not just a troll. You're a ****ing parasite who latches on to good threads until they get sick, whither away and die.

Just stop, dude. There isn't a single other person who has backed your point of view. There's a difference between having the minority opinion and arguing to the point of insanity, and you passed that a long, long time ago.

Ipushkidsdown
05-24-2013, 07:34 PM
the pacers played lbj very bad at the end of the game you don't need to be the best player in the world to get in that giant alley hill left. but all in all great game by james

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 07:41 PM
I never said you start or derail anything. :confused:

You said you guys are doing the same thing. I don't know what you guys meant but I don't (generally) derail threads, bash kobe endlessly, bring up 8 years ago in an unrelated thread etc. Like I said it would be very easy to do that type of stuff to Kobe, in an attempt to make him look pathetic. It wouldn't however add anything to these threads and would only annoy people who came here to actually talk basketball. It also would prove absolutely nothing because no one will take you seriously with that sort of bias (no matter who your bashing).

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 07:43 PM
Apparently you do, because you're stuck in some batshit crazy reality in which Lebron is a mediocre basketball player and Kobe is some kind of omnipotent being. You'll use any possible excuse you can to bring the guy down when he has never done a single negative thing to you. You can't use stats, because they completely crush any point you have. You can't use ability, because he's clearly the best basketball player in the world and has been for a decade. And you can't use accolades, because he's got more MVPs than Kobe and Kobe has been in the league far longer.

So, what do you do? You thumb through Lebron's career like a college student thumbing through a textbook for that piece of information which makes your argument valid. You then constantly hammer that one point over and over again refusing to see reason or understand another person's perspective. You're not just a troll. You're a ****ing parasite who latches on to good threads until they get sick, whither away and die.

Just stop, dude. There isn't a single other person who has backed your point of view. There's a difference between having the minority opinion and arguing to the point of insanity, and you passed that a long, long time ago.

I never said any of those things, you're assuming. Lebron is a coward and a fake winner in my eyes. We all witnessed who Lebron was before joining this current super team. I don't need a bunch of kids who are brainwashed by the media and nba to tell me what to think and believe. I'm an independent thinker, this is why I'm also in the minority in the world of business. My thought processing is much different than people who are told what to do and believe their whole life. It comes as no surprise that it's 1v100. This site is filled with Lebron homers, why would anyone agree with me.

bucketss
05-24-2013, 07:44 PM
lol kbpau going hard in the paint tonight.

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 07:50 PM
I never said any of those things, you're assuming. Lebron is a coward and a fake winner in my eyes. We all witnessed who Lebron was before joining this current super team. I don't need a bunch of kids who are brainwashed by the media and nba to tell me what to think and believe. I'm an independent thinker, this is why I'm also in the minority in the world of business. My thought processing is much different than people who are told what to do and believe their whole life. It comes as no surprise that it's 1v100. This site is filled with Lebron homers, why would anyone agree with me.

Don't go around calling people "kids" when you have no ****ing clue who you're talking to. I'm 26, bro. Also, you claim the site is filled with Lebron "homers," but isn't isn't it just possible that Lebron is that good and you're just hating the guy for the sake hatred? It's fairly obvious to me that you have no legitimate basketball argument at this point, and it's truly gotten pathetic. Unless you have an actual basketball argument to prove why Lebron is as bad as you claim he is, just don't post about it. Everyone has heard your nonsensical rambling and no one gives a **** anymore.

This is a sports forum, so I'm going to go back to discussing basketball. Let me know when you want to do the same.

KobeOwnSU
05-24-2013, 07:53 PM
Cool.

JIBM
05-24-2013, 07:55 PM
Psd is a joke.. every thread Lebron vs Kobe vs Jordan, don't know why I even made an acount

mightybosstone
05-24-2013, 07:57 PM
Psd is a joke.. every thread Lebron vs Kobe vs Jordan, don't know why I even made an acount

I know, dude. The kobephiles are in full force tonight. But you should legitimately stick around for when they hibernate and we actually have good basketball discussion in here.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 08:01 PM
The bold is just a flat out lie. To your other points I would love for you to show me lets say 50 or so posts where all I do is spew nonsense about Kobe. Show me all of the threads that I have derailed by posting about events that happened 5 plus years ago in a completely unrelated topic. Even though I don't like Kobe, I still give him respect because he is an all time great. It would be very easy to discredit Kobe just as much as you do to Lebron.

do you expect a real reply from him, or the few Kobephiles on this site? They spew nonsense, and make it a point to destroy any credible thread with their trolling, and then try and claim that others are doing it as well, which is a flat out lie.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 08:04 PM
Apparently you do, because you're stuck in some batshit crazy reality in which Lebron is a mediocre basketball player and Kobe is some kind of omnipotent being. You'll use any possible excuse you can to bring the guy down when he has never done a single negative thing to you. You can't use stats, because they completely crush any point you have. You can't use ability, because he's clearly the best basketball player in the world and has been for a decade. And you can't use accolades, because he's got more MVPs than Kobe and Kobe has been in the league far longer.

So, what do you do? You thumb through Lebron's career like a college student thumbing through a textbook for that piece of information which makes your argument valid. You then constantly hammer that one point over and over again refusing to see reason or understand another person's perspective. You're not just a troll. You're a ****ing parasite who latches on to good threads until they get sick, whither away and die.

Just stop, dude. There isn't a single other person who has backed your point of view. There's a difference between having the minority opinion and arguing to the point of insanity, and you passed that a long, long time ago.

completely nailed it, wow

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 08:06 PM
I know, dude. The kobephiles are in full force tonight. But you should legitimately stick around for when they hibernate and we actually have good basketball discussion in here.

well, they are coming out stronger now, because now that their crutch is gone (no rings), they are pulling out any last trick possible to make sure LeBron doesn't pass their guy.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 08:07 PM
Don't go around calling people "kids" when you have no ****ing clue who you're talking to. I'm 26, bro. Also, you claim the site is filled with Lebron "homers," but isn't isn't it just possible that Lebron is that good and you're just hating the guy for the sake hatred? It's fairly obvious to me that you have no legitimate basketball argument at this point, and it's truly gotten pathetic. Unless you have an actual basketball argument to prove why Lebron is as bad as you claim he is, just don't post about it. Everyone has heard your nonsensical rambling and no one gives a **** anymore.

This is a sports forum, so I'm going to go back to discussing basketball. Let me know when you want to do the same.

I never said Lebron wasn't great. I never said he wasn't the best player in the world. What I have said though is Lebron could never get over the top before joining one of the best teams ever. I refuse to give someone praise after they took the easy road to success. I would have had no problem with Lebron if he was loyal, or at the very least didn't pull a chicken **** move and take a pay cut to join to other super stars. No superstar has ever done such a travesty in league history. He was considered to be the best player in the world when he left his team to join a top 3 player. How do you not see the problem here?

SportsFanatic10
05-24-2013, 08:10 PM
Apparently you do, because you're stuck in some batshit crazy reality in which Lebron is a mediocre basketball player and Kobe is some kind of omnipotent being. You'll use any possible excuse you can to bring the guy down when he has never done a single negative thing to you. You can't use stats, because they completely crush any point you have. You can't use ability, because he's clearly the best basketball player in the world and has been for a decade. And you can't use accolades, because he's got more MVPs than Kobe and Kobe has been in the league far longer.

So, what do you do? You thumb through Lebron's career like a college student thumbing through a textbook for that piece of information which makes your argument valid. You then constantly hammer that one point over and over again refusing to see reason or understand another person's perspective. You're not just a troll. You're a ****ing parasite who latches on to good threads until they get sick, whither away and die.

Just stop, dude. There isn't a single other person who has backed your point of view. There's a difference between having the minority opinion and arguing to the point of insanity, and you passed that a long, long time ago.

well put :clap:

bucketss
05-24-2013, 08:22 PM
well, they are coming out stronger now, because now that their crutch is gone (no rings), they are pulling out any last trick possible to make sure LeBron doesn't pass their guy.

lol so true, you can see them getting desperate now even using a steroids argument.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-24-2013, 08:22 PM
Well, I'm talking my girl to Wolfgang puck, so I'll continue this trashing tomorrow.

bucketss
05-24-2013, 08:27 PM
I never said Lebron wasn't great. I never said he wasn't the best player in the world. What I have said though is Lebron could never get over the top before joining one of the best teams ever. I refuse to give someone praise after they took the easy road to success. I would have had no problem with Lebron if he was loyal, or at the very least didn't pull a chicken **** move and take a pay cut to join to other super stars. No superstar has ever done such a travesty in league history. He was considered to be the best player in the world when he left his team to join a top 3 player. How do you not see the problem here?

if he wasn't so much better than kobe?, i know during the lebron vs kobe years when they were fighting for best player in the league kobe fans convinced themselves lebron will never pass kobe, but now the truth is cumming out and you guys are doing everything to try to extend the inevitable. loll its getting so sad :''(

no surprise almost all kobe fans are lebron haters.

bucketss
05-24-2013, 08:28 PM
Well, I'm talking my girl to Wolfgang puck, so I'll continue this trashing tomorrow.

maybe you can take her to subway after loool

ragee
05-24-2013, 09:07 PM
How do you define clutch anyway? Is it about the last second shot or is it about someone who can just take over the game in the last few mins? Because those are two different things. Like if I am going to pick players who are clutch, I would have different picks depending on the category.

Last second shot: Melo or Durant
Someone who can just takeover: Kobe or Dirk

Going back to Lebron, he is clutch when we are talking about last second shot but taking over games is a different story in my opinion. I would pick Wade over him in that category.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 09:15 PM
How do you define clutch anyway? Is it about the last second shot or is it about someone who can just take over the game in the last few mins? Because those are two different things. Like if I am going to pick players who are clutch, I would have different picks depending on the category.

Last second shot: Melo or Durant
Someone who can just takeover: Kobe or Dirk

Going back to Lebron, he is clutch when we are talking about last second shot but taking over games is a different story in my opinion. I would pick Wade over him in that category.

you have to be kidding? LeBron is the best player in the world. Has been for a few years. He takes games over nightly.

Its gotten to the point we take him for granted. 30-10-10? meh, whatever. If any other player did that, ZOMG, BEST EVER!

natelpete
05-24-2013, 09:19 PM
Lebron gets a lay up on a defensive breakdown and now he's clutch. Psd FTW!

You're a sad little man.

jerellh528
05-24-2013, 09:43 PM
you have to be kidding? LeBron is the best player in the world. Has been for a few years. He takes games over nightly.

Its gotten to the point we take him for granted. 30-10-10? meh, whatever. If any other player did that, ZOMG, BEST EVER!

lebron only has about 35 triple doubles in his 10 year career..I wouldn't say people go meh, when he gets one.
To put that in perspective the big o earned 41 triple doubles in 1 season. Magic had about 140 trip dubs after only 3 more seasons than lebron..its not like lebron gets them all the time, but i know what your point is.

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 09:44 PM
I never said any of those things, you're assuming. Lebron is a coward and a fake winner in my eyes. We all witnessed who Lebron was before joining this current super team. I don't need a bunch of kids who are brainwashed by the media and nba to tell me what to think and believe. I'm an independent thinker, this is why I'm also in the minority in the world of business. My thought processing is much different than people who are told what to do and believe their whole life. It comes as no surprise that it's 1v100. This site is filled with Lebron homers, why would anyone agree with me.

No, this site isn't filed with LeBron homers. It's filled with basketball fans who appreciate his greatness. Ever occurred to you that 100 beats 1? Not because we're homers, but because we're not trolls.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 09:57 PM
lebron only has about 35 triple doubles in his 10 year career..I wouldn't say people go meh, when he gets one.
To put that in perspective the big o earned 41 triple doubles in 1 season. Magic had about 140 trip dubs after only 3 more seasons than lebron..its not like lebron gets them all the time, but i know what your point is.

I brought up literally his last game, and yes, people do take for granted what he does.

Find me a player whose career playoff averages are 28-8-7. With a PER of 27.2, and WS/48 of .232. The list will be very, very, very, very limited.

LeBron has shifted from being a player we thought might not live up to the hype, to a player who is about to join the best ever.

He is #7 all time in triple doubles btw. Magic didn't score like LeBron, and neither were remotely the defensive presence Bron is.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 10:05 PM
I brought up literally his last game, and yes, people do take for granted what he does.

Find me a player whose career playoff averages are 28-8-7. With a PER of 27.2, and WS/48 of .232. The list will be very, very, very, very limited.

LeBron has shifted from being a player we thought might not live up to the hype, to a player who is about to join the best ever.

He is #7 all time in triple doubles btw. Magic didn't score like LeBron, and neither were remotely the defensive presence Bron is.

I agree with you, and thought the same thing the other night. Right after that first game there wasn't much said other than about how Hibbert should have been in the game at the end. If Lebron doesn't get those layups we would have 5 threads about how he couldn't get it done etc (even though he had a triple double). At this point it isn't even a big deal when he goes 30-10-10. We talk about how he looked timid for 2 minutes, and how the other team let him score 2 clutch baskets. I guess that's how it's supposed to be when your considered the best in the league though.

jerellh528
05-24-2013, 10:17 PM
I brought up literally his last game, and yes, people do take for granted what he does.

Find me a player whose career playoff averages are 28-8-7. With a PER of 27.2, and WS/48 of .232. The list will be very, very, very, very limited.

LeBron has shifted from being a player we thought might not live up to the hype, to a player who is about to join the best ever.

He is #7 all time in triple doubles btw. Magic didn't score like LeBron, and neither were remotely the defensive presence Bron is.


no doubt if he keeps it up he will in my top 5 all time.
mj
kaj
magic
shaq
lebron (if he plays on lebron par for 5 or more seasons)

Just sayin, I dont think a lot of people take him for granted, I think most agree he is a once a generation player.

d00d
05-24-2013, 10:19 PM
when he retires with 2 rings, he will be remembered as the most overrated player of all time.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 10:29 PM
no doubt if he keeps it up he will in my top 5 all time.
mj
kaj
magic
shaq
lebron (if he plays on lebron par for 5 or more seasons)

Just sayin, I dont think a lot of people take him for granted, I think most agree he is a once a generation player.

you might be right man. I just think at this point, the expectations are so high, anything less than perfection becomes criticized. And quite frankly, that might be just...

To me personally, if he does keep it up, he passed Shaq, and Magic.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2013, 10:29 PM
when he retires with 2 rings, he will be remembered as the most overrated player of all time.

wow

3RDASYSTEM
05-24-2013, 11:02 PM
Are you forgetting about Lebron and Wade combination of 3/twenty something in clutch shots since joining forces?

You kids don't really take what Bspn says seriously do you? :laugh: Lebron = Jordan to them. So I guess I know why you guys watch that channel.

Good try, JORDAN has espn by the balls or bspn, whatever you want to call it

that's the main reason why JORDAN cant be touched, he has a 40th or 50th birthday and gets hr long specials in his honor

and as much as bspn mention JORDAN and BEAN in same breath you would think BEAN is equal or over JORDAN 24 does beat 23 right?

3RDASYSTEM
05-24-2013, 11:12 PM
I brought up literally his last game, and yes, people do take for granted what he does.

Find me a player whose career playoff averages are 28-8-7. With a PER of 27.2, and WS/48 of .232. The list will be very, very, very, very limited.

LeBron has shifted from being a player we thought might not live up to the hype, to a player who is about to join the best ever.

He is #7 all time in triple doubles btw. Magic didn't score like LeBron, and neither were remotely the defensive presence Bron is.

That's the thing I couldn't ever see outside of him blowing out both knees at a young age, he was the hype

the hype was from him being a phenom, I had him already a top player ever preNBA, did you not see him play in HS? I don't never need to see a PER from phenoms or once in a generation type players

3RDASYSTEM
05-24-2013, 11:15 PM
when he retires with 2 rings, he will be remembered as the most overrated player of all time.

WILT won 2 out 7 all game 7's in losses I believe

you got BRON confused with that dude in LA with 5

Supreme LA
05-24-2013, 11:20 PM
So much for Lebron being clutch. Two turnovers in the last minute of the game?

TheRazorboy
05-24-2013, 11:22 PM
He's clutching his throat as we speak.

NeverSayNevur
05-24-2013, 11:24 PM
Clutch passing by lebron....said no one ever.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 11:24 PM
haha, two nights after back to back game winning baskets. Obviously a kobe fan needs to comment immediately...

Supreme LA
05-24-2013, 11:28 PM
haha, two nights after back to back game winning baskets. Obviously a kobe fan needs to comment immediately...

I know right? Go figure...I mean what are the odds that a Kobe fan would respond seeing as how PSD is 2/3 Lebron fans and the rest are Kobe fans.

OceanSpray
05-24-2013, 11:32 PM
I know right? Go figure...I mean what are the odds that a Kobe fan would respond seeing as how PSD is 2/3 Lebron fans and the rest are Kobe fans.

2/3? Where are you picking this info off from? There's a reason why there are more people who think LeBron is better than Kobe than vice versa. He's just better.

mngopher35
05-24-2013, 11:33 PM
I know right? Go figure...I mean what are the odds that a Kobe fan would respond seeing as how PSD is 2/3 Lebron fans and the rest are Kobe fans.

Hmm I didn't know the entire forum was Kobe and Lebron fans. Odds are that after any superstar has a bad finish a troll will be there to do his thing. Way to prove that.

TheRazorboy
05-24-2013, 11:35 PM
I know right? Go figure...I mean what are the odds that a Kobe fan would respond seeing as how PSD is 2/3 Lebron fans and the rest are Kobe fans.

Seeing as I dislike both of them I'm wondering how I even registered.

Vancity
05-24-2013, 11:36 PM
Seeing as I dislike both of them I'm wondering how I even registered.

^This

BigCityofDreams
05-24-2013, 11:50 PM
1. I'm not a Heat fan.
2. You don't know anything about basketball.
3. I'm pretty sure he's #1 on that list so how is that runner up?

It must kill you inside that no one thinks Kobe is even a top 5 player anymore (except Lakers fans), and LBJ is already considered better, and has at least another 10 years of basketball still in him.

Lebron is going to play until he's 38?

Odominator
05-24-2013, 11:53 PM
The irony of the timing of this article is :p

BigCityofDreams
05-24-2013, 11:54 PM
So much for Lebron being clutch. Two turnovers in the last minute of the game?

Can't kill him for that. They wouldn't be in the game w/o him. It was sweet to watch though.

BigCityofDreams
05-25-2013, 12:00 AM
Psd is a joke.. every thread Lebron vs Kobe vs Jordan, don't know why I even made an acount

It's not just on here but in general. Sports are great but at the same time it can be frustrating. Debating who is the best leads to good discussions but also intense hate toward the players.

d00d
05-25-2013, 12:00 AM
those TO's were hilarious, they were especially funny after TNT showed those rare highlights of him hitting a shot in the clutch which we all know has been few and far between.

Lebron is the Alex Rodriguez of basketball.

chong2204
05-25-2013, 12:03 AM
those TO's were hilarious, they were especially funny after TNT showed those rare highlights of him hitting a shot in the clutch which we all know has been few and far between.

Lebron is the Alex Rodriguez of basketball.

Don't know if I agree with this post, but its the funniest thing I've ever read on this now dumb board.

apocalypse15
05-25-2013, 12:06 AM
Clutch is not only measured in last second shots. It's not about hitting a shot you only have one chance to either win or lose. If so,those halftime shots where people make a half court shot for $50,000 must be clutch in the NBA finals. Clutch is performance under pressure overall. I'm sorry but Indiana Pacers defense folded under pressure in game 1 and Lebron folded under pressure in game 2. Being clutch is so dynamic. Lebron James is clutch when he wants to be. He is the best player on the court for a full 82 game season and during the playoffs and can easily take over any game. We are all lucky enough to possibly have another 10+ years to watch James play this game.

Bookey
05-25-2013, 12:26 AM
As a Bulls & Jordan fan, I have nothing negative to say about Lebron's game. My only critism was that he couldn't get it done when it mattered most, and he shut me up last year. I also admire what Kobe has done and is still doing at his age. No need to hate on either one. But I guess that would make things less entertaining if everyone embraced different forms of greatness.

jerellh528
05-25-2013, 01:20 AM
wasnt so clutch tonight, thats for sure.

still1ballin
05-25-2013, 01:22 AM
Yeap!

ragee
05-25-2013, 01:26 AM
you have to be kidding? LeBron is the best player in the world. Has been for a few years. He takes games over nightly.

Its gotten to the point we take him for granted. 30-10-10? meh, whatever. If any other player did that, ZOMG, BEST EVER!

I am just talking the last few mins of the game. Lebron is the best player in the league. There are very few holes in his game and some of it are already gone (like his jumpshot) but as amazing as he is, he still not perfect. And one of his flaw is that he doesn't feed of of pressure like Wade and Kobe does.

ThunderousDemon
05-25-2013, 01:30 AM
Can't wait until Lebron joins the Lakers and wins three more championships.

justinnum1
05-25-2013, 01:31 AM
Can't wait until Lebron joins the Lakers and wins three more championships.

pass that **** over here bro

ThaDubs
05-25-2013, 01:31 AM
Can't wait until Lebron joins the Lakers and wins three more championships.

I don't understand your signature... but it's beautiful...?

ThunderousDemon
05-25-2013, 01:35 AM
pass that **** over here bro

If the Heat don't win the Championship this year then why wouldn't he opt out to join the Lakers with a ton of cap space.

ThunderousDemon
05-25-2013, 01:36 AM
The Heat are going to have to release either bosh or wade and with an aging roster his future could look brighter with the Lakers.

justinnum1
05-25-2013, 01:39 AM
The Heat are going to have to release either bosh or wade and with an aging roster his future could look brighter with the Lakers.

Keep telling yourself that :laugh2:

ThunderousDemon
05-25-2013, 01:40 AM
Keep telling yourself that :laugh2:

It's the truth though, the Heat can't keep both Bosh and Wade for much longer.

TheRazorboy
05-25-2013, 01:40 AM
The Heat are going to have to release either bosh or wade and with an aging rosterhis future could look brighter with the Lakers.

As opposed to the Lakers' young, talent laden roster?

ThunderousDemon
05-25-2013, 01:44 AM
As opposed to the Lakers' young, talent laden roster?

The Lakers will have no one but Steve Nash signed after the 2013-2014 season.

That's a ton of cap space to spend on new talent.

cutiepie80
05-25-2013, 02:28 AM
pass that **** over here bro

No doubt. Lebron is a Heat for life. Wade's knees are getting younger and Bosh is unstoppable pretty much.

You live in your own fantasy world. The heat dynasty will be lived as about as long as most fake heat fans have become fans.

kobe4thewinbang
05-25-2013, 02:29 AM
Man, talk about a jinx thread. LOL.

cutiepie80
05-25-2013, 02:32 AM
Lebron left his hometown and friends in Cleveland, you don't think when cap space and his girlfriend Wade is done he won't jet? Another example of delusional Heat fans that know NOTHING about the NBA business.

ThaDubs
05-25-2013, 02:33 AM
How much clutch could a Kobe chuck if a Kobe could be clutch?

Kobe just chucks but if Kobe was clutch he could chuck clutch bucks instead of clutch chucks

jayjay33
05-25-2013, 03:57 AM
Kobe has played for ONE franchise for 17 years straight. Kobe is Loyal, Lebron is not cut from the same fabric.

How quickly people forget how his selfishness drove Shaq from the Lakers and how quickly he wanted to jump ship when the team was mediocre in the mid-2000s prior to the Gasol trade. Selective memory is a fun tool to make your argument with.


Yes and your selective memory is acting up I see. Kobe didn't drive shaq anywhere he actually wanted what LBJ
Had his own team. So he was going to leave some one else's team to get his own. (The lakers chose not to let him). In what world is that the same as leaving YOUR TEAM. Your so blinded by hate, you can't even think straight. An don't get me wrong I don't blame lebron for leaving at all. But you comparing wanting to leave some one else's house to go get your own and make your own way. To doing the reverse is absurd. Lol


I wanna go out get my own team and make my name vs I wanna leave MY TEAM and go join somebody else's. really? Are you in crack? That's like comparing the guy who wants to move out of his parents house and sink or swim in his own two feet. To the guy who has his own place. But wants to move back in with his mama cause it's hard out there. Lol, at least be rationale with your hate. Selective memory must be a fun tool. Cause you just used the hell out of it. Lol

ewmania
05-25-2013, 05:06 AM
Illusionist you thought Jordan was right next to Lebron as far as size, speed, and strength. Like the more you talk the more it's hard to take anything you say serious. You very clearly don't watch anything, but Lakers games. You probably started watching basketball a few years ago, and the only reason you don't call Kobe the GOAT anymore is because people kept calling you an idiot.

Do yourself a favor, and actually go watch Jordan play because it's extremely apparent you never have.

is the lebron the best player in the NBA today? ..... yes

is lebron better than jordan, magic, bird, russell, wilt.... hell no

everybody else is pretty arguable tho

lol how is jordan and him similiar.... jordan was a high volume scorer who got most of his shots from mid-range and shot over 50% majority of his career when lebron gets easier looks than jordan has ever had... jordan is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time and lebron has never even won DPOY. jordan has lead the league in scoring with like 38 pts... jordan has never lost in the finals and hit a clutch shot in the finals... far as a better passing and rebounding lebron has jordan... but IQ, speed, clutch, shooting, defense jordan is by far the best player in history

far as defense goes lebron and jordan is nowhere near each other... lebron just plays the passing lanes he rarely get his hands dirty which is why he rarely draw fouls which makes him a smart defender not a great one... jordan got his hands dirty, he pressured defenders and even drew fouls now and then. fast enough to keep players infront of him and smart enough to swipe the ball out they hands. jordan was in the post defending PF's at times I'm a knick fan so I've witnessed that alot against charles oakley

Quinnsanity
05-25-2013, 05:14 AM
Honestly the way he quit against Boston always bothered me a lot more than the Dallas series. That being said, he did about as much as he possibly could to absolve himself last year.

ewmania
05-25-2013, 05:18 AM
No doubt. Lebron is a Heat for life. Wade's knees are getting younger and Bosh is unstoppable pretty much.

You live in your own fantasy world. The heat dynasty will be lived as about as long as most fake heat fans have become fans.

lol yea man lebron is a heat for life... I can't imagine lebron just leaving a city like that you know

like out of all the players in the league I couldn't see lebron just getting up and playing somewhere else ... why would he take his talents somewhere else

wade is looking younger by the minute

jam
05-25-2013, 05:24 AM
Only in comparison to Jordan. Bird lost in the finals, so did Kobe, so did Magic, Kareem, etc.

Since we can all agree that Lebron isn't Jordan, it's fair to consider him amongst the other greats of the game. There's no doubt he's right there in the mix.

After his career's over, it's likely Lebron will be considered the best SF of all time, surpassing Larry Legend. Bird's got 3 rings, Lebron's got one, so obviously, that's a huge consideration.


Looks good but before that game LeBron was 5-14 in such situations. In no way am I downplaying what he did just putting it into perspective. That 11 Finals would always be a cloud over his head in terms of his clutch legacy.

jam
05-25-2013, 05:26 AM
No doubt. He'll always be remembered as a quitter for bailing on the cavs, instead of toughing it out and recruiting or cajoling mgmt to sign a couple of more great players.


lol yea man lebron is a heat for life... I can't imagine lebron just leaving a city like that you know

like out of all the players in the league I couldn't see lebron just getting up and playing somewhere else ... why would he take his talents somewhere else

wade is looking younger by the minute

mightybosstone
05-25-2013, 09:18 AM
I never said Lebron wasn't great. I never said he wasn't the best player in the world. What I have said though is Lebron could never get over the top before joining one of the best teams ever. I refuse to give someone praise after they took the easy road to success. I would have had no problem with Lebron if he was loyal, or at the very least didn't pull a chicken **** move and take a pay cut to join to other super stars. No superstar has ever done such a travesty in league history. He was considered to be the best player in the world when he left his team to join a top 3 player. How do you not see the problem here?

This is such a horseshit argument. Jordan got in his 4th season. Magic got drafted by a team with Kareem on it. Bird got drafted by an already stacked team which got even more stacked the next season when the Celtics drafted McHale. Kobe joined a team his rookie year with a 24-year-old Shaquille O'Neal.

You look throughout history and nearly every single all-time great had great help at some point in his career. Most of them had a ton of help early on in their careers. Hakeem is really the exception until 95 when the Rockets' front office finally figured out they needed to put put talent around him. But what did Lebron have in his seven seasons in Cleveland? Mo Williams. Antawn Jamison. Anderson Varejao. Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Not bad players, but there isn't a single legitimate star in that group and not one championship quality No. 2.

Put Kobe in Lebron's shoes. Suppose he still gets traded to the Lakers on draft day, but Shaq isn't on that team. Instead, let's give him Lebron's supporting cast. Do you think he sticks around after seven seasons of that quality of talent, or does he bolt for greener pastures? I GUARANTEE you he would have left. Hell, he almost left in the mid 2000s after Shaq left and he was saddled with mediocre players for 2-3 seasons. If it wasn't for the Gasol trade, Kobe probably wouldn't have been wearing the purple and gold this season.

Hawkeye had such an amazing post yesterday. I can't remember where it was, but it was such a phenomenal point. Basically, loyalty in sports is only as strong as the talent you're surrounded with and the money in your pockets. If you're underpaid, under-appreciated and surrounded by crap talent, you'll leave the second you get a chance. On the flip side, loyalty for front offices and general managers is only as strong as you are talented, healthy and cost effective. Once players age or get hurt, it doesn't matter how much that player has done for your team or your community. They'll let you walk in free agency or trade you while you still have value.

So, **** off with your "loyalty" argument. There's hardly any loyalty in sports anymore, and if you want to blame someone for it, don't blame Lebron. Blame society for judging every player by the number of titles he won or the general managers for the outrageous salaries they receive or the media for scrutinizing every single moment of every athlete's career.

bagwell368
05-25-2013, 09:44 AM
Honestly the way he quit against Boston always bothered me a lot more than the Dallas series. That being said, he did about as much as he possibly could to absolve himself last year.

James got flummoxed in two Series by the post title Celts. That all seemed to be over when he went wild in Boston in Game 6, and that the "earlier times" were behind him. Heat lose the Series to Indy, and he's back at square #1 with a billion questions and doubts until the start of next years. He retires with 2 or less titles (Wade appears to be at the edge of his decline if not in it), he'll be looked at the the way Wilt has been - great - and yet somehow having failed to win, or win enough.

mightybosstone
05-25-2013, 09:47 AM
James got flummoxed in two Series by the post title Celts. That all seemed to be over when he went wild in Boston in Game 6, and that the "earlier times" were behind him. Heat lose the Series to Indy, and he's back at square #1 with a billion questions and doubts until the start of next years. He retires with 2 or less titles (Wade appears to be at the edge of his decline if not in it), he'll be looked at the the way Wilt has been - great - and yet somehow having failed to win, or win enough.

I think it's way too early to say the Heat lose this series to Indiana. They could easily be up 2-0 going to Indy. And aside from Lebron, everyone else has played like crap in this series for the most part. That won't last forever. Eventually Wade, Bosh or Allen will have a breakout game to take the pressure off Lebron and the Heat will take over this series.

Swashcuff
05-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Only in comparison to Jordan. Bird lost in the finals, so did Kobe, so did Magic, Kareem, etc.

Since we can all agree that Lebron isn't Jordan, it's fair to consider him amongst the other greats of the game. There's no doubt he's right there in the mix.

After his career's over, it's likely Lebron will be considered the best SF of all time, surpassing Larry Legend. Bird's got 3 rings, Lebron's got one, so obviously, that's a huge consideration.

LeBron has lost twice thus far in 3 finals appearances this isn't about him losing though but rather the way in which he lost. None of those players ever had a finals as bad as the one LeBron had offensively.

Swashcuff
05-25-2013, 09:52 AM
James got flummoxed in two Series by the post title Celts. That all seemed to be over when he went wild in Boston in Game 6, and that the "earlier times" were behind him. Heat lose the Series to Indy, and he's back at square #1 with a billion questions and doubts until the start of next years. He retires with 2 or less titles (Wade appears to be at the edge of his decline if not in it), he'll be looked at the the way Wilt has been - great - and yet somehow having failed to win, or win enough.

Could you please give us a look into your crystal ball kind sir

bagwell368
05-25-2013, 09:54 AM
This is such a horseshit argument. Jordan got in his 4th season. Magic got drafted by a team with Kareem on it. Bird got drafted by an already stacked team which got even more stacked the next season when the Celtics drafted McHale. .

Not to interrupt you while you were on a roll, but the Celts that drafted Bird had the 2nd worst record in the NBA the year before he arrived with 29 wins. Cedric Maxwell was the only good player. Cowens was on his last legs, Chris Ford was a meh guard that played 33.7 MPG, Jeff Judkins was 5th in minutes played! Tiny was post his peak. Rowe, Barnes, McAdoo, and Knight were all toxic pieces of crap on that team as well.

Bird, Maxwell, Red (cleaning out the crap roster), and Fitch are the reason they won 61 games the next year.

bagwell368
05-25-2013, 09:57 AM
Could you please give us a look into your crystal ball kind sir

RA and Wade are not going to get better. The East has sucked but is bound to get stronger. However the West is suddenly in disarray, and SAS is near the end of their amazing run. I'd say two more titles for James on the Heat is the ceiling (assuming he stays for his career not including the last year or two when he goes to chase down another title).

mightybosstone
05-25-2013, 10:00 AM
Not to interrupt you while you were on a roll, but the Celts that drafted Bird had the 2nd worst record in the NBA the year before he arrived with 29 wins. Cedric Maxwell was the only good player. Cowens was on his last legs, Chris Ford was a meh guard that played 33.7 MPG, Jeff Judkins was 5th in minutes played! Tiny was post his peak. Rowe, Barnes, McAdoo, and Knight were all toxic pieces of crap on that team as well.

Bird, Maxwell, Red (cleaning out the crap roster), and Fitch are the reason they won 61 games the next year.

That's my fault. I was under the impression that Parish was already on the Celtics, but forgot he didn't join until the year after Bird was drafted. Regardless, that's kind of besides the point. The point I'm trying to make is that he was surrounded by an insane amount of talent throughout his career, which is why he never felt the need to leave Boston. Although I still wouldn't laugh at a roster of Bird, Maxwell, Tiny and Cowens, even if Archibald and Cowens were past their prime.

Swashcuff
05-25-2013, 10:01 AM
RA and Wade are not going to get better. The East has sucked but is bound to get stronger. However the West is suddenly in disarray, and SAS is near the end of their amazing run. I'd say two more titles for James on the Heat is the ceiling (assuming he stays for his career not including the last year or two when he goes to chase down another title).

You just said LeBeon retires with 2 or less titles meaning its possible that he doesn't win another. Again I ask for your crystal ball because there was a time where people actually believed Bron would never win won and look at it now. We so hasty? Things can change for the better the Heat can sign/trade for 2 players to replace Wade and Allen. I honestly think its ignorant to say stuff like that and not just about Bron but any other player. People said Kobe wouldn't win without Shaq what happened? He won two. Lets not jump to conclusions just yet.

mightybosstone
05-25-2013, 10:08 AM
RA and Wade are not going to get better. The East has sucked but is bound to get stronger. However the West is suddenly in disarray, and SAS is near the end of their amazing run. I'd say two more titles for James on the Heat is the ceiling (assuming he stays for his career not including the last year or two when he goes to chase down another title).

But what if the Heat decide to cut ties with Bosh or Wade and bring in another player? I'm sure Miami would have a hard time getting rid of Wade, but suppose they did and brought someone else in 2014 and 2015? Or there's always a chance Lebron could leave in 2014 or 2015 for another team. Maybe he comes back to Cleveland to join the talented young core there or goes and plays with Melo in New York for four or five seasons. But I think you're ruling out Lebron's success WAY too early when you consider how talented a basketball player he is. And I think you're ruling out the Heat in this series WAY too early. It's been two games and the Heat are tied at 1-1. Do you honestly think the Pacers can beat Miami three more times? I don't.

bagwell368
05-25-2013, 10:12 AM
That's my fault. I was under the impression that Parish was already on the Celtics, but forgot he didn't join until the year after Bird was drafted. Regardless, that's kind of besides the point. The point I'm trying to make is that he was surrounded by an insane amount of talent throughout his career, which is why he never felt the need to leave Boston. Although I still wouldn't laugh at a roster of Bird, Maxwell, Tiny and Cowens, even if Archibald and Cowens were past their prime.

Yup, and that Parish/pick that became McHale deal is the mainspring of all that. If it didn't happen it's McHale at 5, Bird at 4 (on D) and 3 (on O), with Maxwell. Very nice, but titles until they got DJ and Ainge is out of the question. Cowens was a mental/physical shell of himself, a good 7th guy. Tiny had the creativity, but his shooting days were behind him, and he was post him city on D by Bird's time.

Shlumpledink
05-25-2013, 10:14 AM
It's not JUST the last shot that determines your clutchness. Just going based off one aspect of being clutch to determine if someone is clutch or not is pretty inaccurate.

bagwell368
05-25-2013, 10:20 AM
You just said LeBeon retires with 2 or less titles meaning its possible that he doesn't win another. Again I ask for your crystal ball because there was a time where people actually believed Bron would never win won and look at it now. We so hasty? Things can change for the better the Heat can sign/trade for 2 players to replace Wade and Allen. I honestly think its ignorant to say stuff like that and not just about Bron but any other player. People said Kobe wouldn't win without Shaq what happened? He won two. Lets not jump to conclusions just yet.

As of now James has one title, so two would be one more.

If he stayed on the Cavs its possible he wouldn't have won one. Once he went to Miami I figured 2-5 with 3 or 4 as the most likely outcomes. But now with Wade starting to decline, that bunch appears good for 0-2, with 1 as the most likely outcome IMO.

There is nothing ignorant in what I'm saying. Also what I say doesn't affect the universal order, so what do you care? RA is one of the 3 best deep shooters of all time, not easy to find. Wade on his 5 year peak is probably in the top 30 all time. That's not junk we are talking about. You think someone is going to hand the Heat the next Wade for Wade and a #1 (which will be in the bottom 3 picks of the draft)? The Heat are small, they are aging. Injuries come along and hit Bosh or James, it's over fast.

Make your own predictions, and try not to make your personal hopes/beliefs shadow your judgement. Have a nice day.

Quinnsanity
05-25-2013, 10:31 AM
I think the Wilt comparisons honestly make the most sense. He was always just so much better physically than everyone else but at the same time you got the sense that it didn't matter to him as much as it did to everyone else. I think LeBron is perfectly content with being the 7th or 8th best player of all time. Honestly that's not a bad thing, it just doesn't hold up to the will of other all time greats. Honestly Michael Jordan is a ****ing sociopath, but that's what made him so great.

gangis2169
05-25-2013, 10:44 AM
LMAO I love lebron fans. They always try to prove there point by posting inflated stats or giving us the best actual info from the geniuses from ESPN or Bleacher Report. Most of the fans and almost all of the players / coaches know the truth. No matter what the stats are Jordan and Kobe are 1a and 1b when it comes to being clutch Lebron still has a long way to go but he ain't even in the top 10 or 15 when it comes to clutch. Why don't the Heat fans worry about why Lebron has a +/- average of the 2 games against the Pacers of -4? Numbers never lie right?

mightybosstone
05-25-2013, 10:53 AM
LMAO I love lebron fans. They always try to prove there point by posting inflated stats or giving us the best actual info from the geniuses from ESPN or Bleacher Report. Most of the fans and almost all of the players / coaches know the truth. No matter what the stats are Jordan and Kobe are 1a and 1b when it comes to being clutch Lebron still has a long way to go but he ain't even in the top 10 or 15 when it comes to clutch. Why don't the Heat fans worry about why Lebron has a +/- average of the 2 games against the Pacers of -4? Numbers never lie right?

What the **** are you talking about? This post is complete nonsense, and then you completely contradict yourself by using the +- stat (totally flawed) for two games in which the Heat would have been crushed if not for Lebron's performances. I could take any two-game sample size for any player and make them look mediocre, especially if you're using a flawed statistic like +-. Also, what "inflated stats" are you referring to? His points? His assists? His rebounds? His efficiency? I have no idea how those numbers are "inflated."

Pull your head out of your *** and stop speaking in generalizations.

gangis2169
05-25-2013, 11:18 AM
What the **** are you talking about? This post is complete nonsense, and then you completely contradict yourself by using the +- stat (totally flawed) for two games in which the Heat would have been crushed if not for Lebron's performances. I could take any two-game sample size for any player and make them look mediocre, especially if you're using a flawed statistic like +-. Also, what "inflated stats" are you referring to? His points? His assists? His rebounds? His efficiency? I have no idea how those numbers are "inflated."

Pull your head out of your *** and stop speaking in generalizations.

Wow you totally didn't get the point did you? What a dumba**! I was playing off the fact that Lebron fans always go to the numbers hence the +/- being low obviously means numbers lie. This dumbsh*t took it literal lol wow you look even dumber congrats.

tr3ymill3r
05-25-2013, 11:20 AM
LeBron had 2 crucial turnovers in the last minute of game 2, he's a choker and can't handle the spotlight. Everyone get your pitchforks and get him!!!

Swashcuff
05-25-2013, 11:22 AM
Wow you totally didn't get the point did you? What a dumba**! I was playing off the fact that Lebron fans always go to the numbers hence the +/- being low obviously means numbers lie. This dumbsh*t took it literal lol wow you look even dumber congrats.

If you don't k ow ANYTHING about stats PLEASE don't attempt to use them.

gangis2169
05-25-2013, 11:24 AM
What the **** are you talking about? This post is complete nonsense, and then you completely contradict yourself by using the +- stat (totally flawed) for two games in which the Heat would have been crushed if not for Lebron's performances. I could take any two-game sample size for any player and make them look mediocre, especially if you're using a flawed statistic like +-. Also, what "inflated stats" are you referring to? His points? His assists? His rebounds? His efficiency? I have no idea how those numbers are "inflated."

Pull your head out of your *** and stop speaking in generalizations.

By the way inflated stats mean when a defending team has a game plan of staying one on one with Lebron and forcing the others to beat them it makes things a lot easier for him. Just like Kobe, Jordan, and so on. It's pretty simple actually. They don't care what he does as long as the others not get off.