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View Full Version : Mourning after debate: Roy Hibbert or no Roy Hibbert?



4milesperday
05-23-2013, 11:01 AM
What do you guys think about Vogel's decision not to play Hibbert with 2.2 secs left in the game and up by 1? Lebron had a easy lay-up but many are saying it's because Hibbert wasn't in the game.


Personally I think Paul George is at fault here, he shouldn't allow someone to beat him so easily with 2.2 secs left.

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 11:04 AM
It's certainly possible that it would've made a difference. But it was a defensive error by Paul George which was just as if not more blame-worthy.

Swashcuff
05-23-2013, 11:05 AM
So far two solid open minded posts to start the thread lets keep it going guys.

BALLER R
05-23-2013, 11:05 AM
Paul George made the first mistake. No one to help was the other mistake.

True Sports Fan
05-23-2013, 11:08 AM
The was NO reason Hibbert shouldn't have been on the court. He's your rim protector and you have to think the Heat might give it to Wade or LeBron to drive

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 11:18 AM
The was NO reason Hibbert shouldn't have been on the court. He's your rim protector and you have to think the Heat might give it to Wade or LeBron to drive

I can agree to an extent why Hibbert wasn't in. Miami was small, and Hibbert was likely going to be drawn away from the basket by Bosh who would've been his likely assignment. So essentially, he's not going to be at the rim anyway, and he has to respect Bosh's mid range shooting ability and can't cheat too much off him. In fact, Hibbert may have been better defending the inbounder and making that pass much more difficult to get in anyway.

Sam Young also was also there and could've at least fouled Lebron and made him take FT's. It runs the risk of Bosh getting open but he would've had it with very little time left I believe if Lebron makes the pass.

old blue
05-23-2013, 11:21 AM
If def. keeps the. Ball in front and keep from getting split. Then they force them into a jumper. Case closed

72 Wins
05-23-2013, 11:22 AM
Vogal was probably worried that Hibbert might not be able to stay with Bosh and get an easy jumper. We can play the "What ifs" all day, but the bottom line is that George F'd up and let Lebron get by him untouched. I've never seen anything like that happen with a game on the line/with only seconds remaining. But with that said, I would have kept Hibbart in. Get beat by a contested layup or a jumper, not the way they did.

BSplaya2121
05-23-2013, 11:23 AM
I can agree to an extent why Hibbert wasn't in. Miami was small, and Hibbert was likely going to be drawn away from the basket by Bosh who would've been his likely assignment. So essentially, he's not going to be at the rim anyway, and he has to respect Bosh's mid range shooting ability and can't cheat too much off him. In fact, Hibbert may have been better defending the inbounder and making that pass much more difficult to get in anyway.

Sam Young also was also there and could've at least fouled Lebron and made him take FT's. It runs the risk of Bosh getting open but he would've had it with very little time left I believe if Lebron makes the pass.

While i agree with that assessment, you also have to keep in mind there was only 2.2 seconds, so as soon as lebron got the ball, there is absolutely no time for him to drive and kick out, so hibbert would have definitely been cheating towards the middle once lebron got the ball. He would have been there, guaranteed, i mean if he at least knew basic defense

True Sports Fan
05-23-2013, 11:23 AM
The was NO reason Hibbert shouldn't have been on the court. He's your rim protector and you have to think the Heat might give it to Wade or LeBron to drive

I can agree to an extent why Hibbert wasn't in. Miami was small, and Hibbert was likely going to be drawn away from the basket by Bosh who would've been his likely assignment. So essentially, he's not going to be at the rim anyway, and he has to respect Bosh's mid range shooting ability and can't cheat too much off him. In fact, Hibbert may have been better defending the inbounder and making that pass much more difficult to get in anyway.

Sam Young also was also there and could've at least fouled Lebron and made him take FT's. It runs the risk of Bosh getting open but he would've had it with very little time left I believe if Lebron makes the pass. Wouldn't you much rather have Bosh take a three rather then LeBron/Wade going for an easy layup? I mean sure Paul George is pretty solid defensively but one mistake and LeBron is there for an easy layup and that's what we saw happen. Catch and shoot with probably 1 second left if even that is much more difficult then a layup by fastest/strongest/best player in the league.

Besides I'd have West on Bosh and Hibbert clogging the paint who could potentially slide over to whoever is on the other side for the three

Pierzynski4Prez
05-23-2013, 11:25 AM
At 2.2 seconds left, 10 times out of 10 I'm letting Bosh shoot a deep jumper instead of letting lebron drive to the lane with no Hibbert there to protect the rim.

Swashcuff
05-23-2013, 11:26 AM
The was NO reason Hibbert shouldn't have been on the court. He's your rim protector and you have to think the Heat might give it to Wade or LeBron to drive

Wade fouled out he was not on the floor Miami through out a jump shot line up and with 2.2 left on the clock if George played him correctly he would not have gotten into the paint.

Also with everyone camped on the perimeter for Miami do you think Hibbert would have been a factor?

While I don't fully agree that leaving Hibbert put was the right decision it's very understandable as to why Vogel didn't have him in there.

TheNumber37
05-23-2013, 11:27 AM
let's hope Indiana doesn't lose in 7.

BALLER R
05-23-2013, 11:28 AM
At the very least have Hibbert on the inbound pass. And I do agree Lebron couldn't have drove and kicked out and someone get the ball off in those 2.2 seconds.

Sly Guy
05-23-2013, 11:28 AM
At 2.2 seconds left, 10 times out of 10 I'm letting Bosh shoot a deep jumper instead of letting lebron drive to the lane with no Hibbert there to protect the rim.

agreed. Stupid move on vogul's part.

Pakman
05-23-2013, 11:30 AM
The was NO reason Hibbert shouldn't have been on the court. He's your rim protector and you have to think the Heat might give it to Wade or LeBron to drive

Wade fouled out he was not on the floor Miami through out a jump shot line up and with 2.2 left on the clock if George played him correctly he would not have gotten into the paint.

Also with everyone camped on the perimeter for Miami do you think Hibbert would have been a factor?

While I don't fully agree that leaving Hibbert put was the right decision it's very understandable as to why Vogel didn't have him in there.I'd rather have anyone on miami taking a semi open jumpshot than lebron taking a VERY high percentage shot. You have to have hibbert out there no matter what.

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 11:30 AM
Wouldn't you much rather have Bosh take a three rather then LeBron/Wade going for an easy layup? I mean sure Paul George is pretty solid defensively but one mistake and LeBron is there for an easy layup and that's what we saw happen. Catch and shoot with probably 1 second left if even that is much more difficult then a layup by fastest/strongest/best player in the league.

Besides I'd have West on Bosh and Hibbert clogging the paint who could potentially slide over to whoever is on the other side for the three

Yea you never want to give up a layup lol.

But if Hibbert is in there and George defends the same way he did, I just don't know if it makes a difference because the Pacers switched on everything. If you look at the play Miami ran, Hansbrough starts out on Bosh and Sam Young on Allen. But the end result was Hansbrough ended up on Allen in the corner and Young on Bosh on the other wing. (This happened all before the ball was inbounded btw.)

So if you factor in Hibbert in there, he ends up on Allen in one corner camped far away from the basket. So if he even cheats a little Lebron can quickly kick it out to Allen for the open 3.

Again, that's a better shot you want to give up than an open layup %'s wise. But an open Allen corner 3 vs an uncontested layup, I mean it's pick your poison at that point.

airronijordan
05-23-2013, 11:32 AM
I don't blame Vogel because of his reasoning about Bosh.

But I put like 20% blame on David West, 20% on Sam Young, and 60% on Paul George.

West didn't pressure the inbounds passer making the pass to lebron easy.

Sam Young was standing around when Lebron caught the ball instead of rotating and offering help.

And George played lebron way too aggressive which gave Lebron a direct lane to the hoop. George should have backed off and give lebron space. That would have likely forced Lebron to shoot a jumper which you can live with.

Swashcuff
05-23-2013, 11:32 AM
At 2.2 seconds left, 10 times out of 10 I'm letting Bosh shoot a deep jumper instead of letting lebron drive to the lane with no Hibbert there to protect the rim.

Actually that would be Ray Allen (you know one of the most clutch players ever) because off the switch Hansbrough (the player who was subbed in for Hibbert) was guarding Allen and not Bosh. Essentially what you're saying is that you'd give one of the greatest shooters ever an open corner jumper.

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 11:35 AM
While i agree with that assessment, you also have to keep in mind there was only 2.2 seconds, so as soon as lebron got the ball, there is absolutely no time for him to drive and kick out, so hibbert would have definitely been cheating towards the middle once lebron got the ball. He would have been there, guaranteed, i mean if he at least knew basic defense

2.2 seconds is plenty of time to take 1 dribble into the paint. Lebron was in the paint and there was 1.3 seconds left.

Look at this pic here- http://tinypic.com/r/15zm4iv/5

Hibbert would be where Hansbrough is. So if Lebron sees him coming from the corner, he can kick it to Allen for the open 3, I think 1.3 seconds is plenty of time for a catch & shoot with Allen's quick release. Like I said, it's better than a layup, but still pick your poison at that point.

Swashcuff
05-23-2013, 11:35 AM
Yea you never want to give up a layup lol.

But if Hibbert is in there and George defends the same way he did, I just don't know if it makes a difference because the Pacers switched on everything. If you look at the play Miami ran, Hansbrough starts out on Bosh and Sam Young on Allen. But the end result was Hansbrough ended up on Allen in the corner and Young on Bosh on the other wing. (This happened all before the ball was inbounded btw.)

So if you factor in Hibbert in there, he ends up on Allen in one corner camped far away from the basket. So if he even cheats a little Lebron can quickly kick it out to Allen for the open 3.

Again, that's a better shot you want to give up than an open layup %'s wise. But an open Allen corner 3 vs an uncontested layup, I mean it's pick your poison at that point.

Keep it going keep it going exactly what I'm saying. In hindsight Vogel made the wrong move but had Paul George made the right one Hibbert in the paint would have been useless.

I'm not knocking George in no way shape or form he's absolutely one of the best defensive players in the NBA but he's still only 23 he's learning on the job.

macc
05-23-2013, 11:35 AM
To not have your best rim defender in the game, with the game on the line makes literally no sense at all. You can talk yourself into thinking it was smart not to have a 7ft guy with over a 7ft reach advantage not on the court but you're wrong.

I remember thinking the play before when they took Hibbert out was dumb, and then they got burned on it again...THEN at the end of the game I didn't see Hibbert out there yet again. I told my brother Indiana deserves to lose at this point. Looking at their defensive set up, it just didn't make sense and you knew something bad was going to happen for Indy. Sure enough Lebron gets an "easy layup." Granted you can fault George but in reality, no one person in the NBA can stop Lebron, which is why you take advantage of yoru 7ft guys you have on your team to at least make it hard for him.

The sad thing is, in a similiar situation, Vogel will prob do the same thing and take him out just to prove a point.

Avenged
05-23-2013, 11:37 AM
It was obviously the wrong move. Yes, he got by George easily for an open layup but that's why you should have your rim protector there just in-case lapses like that happen.

It wasn't even only the last second play.. There was one play before that one where he took Hibbert out and cost them as well. Go up against a midrange shot, or a drive by Lebron which is 99.9% always going in?

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 11:38 AM
Keep it going keep it going exactly what I'm saying. In hindsight Vogel made the wrong move but had Paul George made the right one Hibbert in the paint would have been useless.

I'm not knocking George in no way shape or form he's absolutely one of the best defensive players in the NBA but he's still only 23 he's learning on the job.

Exactly.. Only 23 & probably a little overzealous in that kind of situation. It's definitely something he'll learn from

jericho
05-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Paul George deserves some of the blame for this but not all of it. At the end of that game Vogel sat down Hibbert 2 times and the heat got to easy buckets the first time with the Wade drive and then the refs save Indy with that phantom call on Wade. Then in the last play of the game. I would rather risk the game on a long jump shot than an easy lay up.

J4KOP99
05-23-2013, 12:01 PM
If hibberts in there, Lebron may not even think of taking it to the hoop.

There is not a legitimate reason out there as to why hibbert was on the bench.

SlimKid
05-23-2013, 12:03 PM
This thread has stayed so rational and objective. Kudos!

bagwell368
05-23-2013, 12:11 PM
The real question is why wasn't there a double team on James? A big body between James and the basket (one that stays stationary or gives a bit of ground and not one that comes forward so they can be beaten), and a wing player (the one with the best hands/most harassing D on the floor) closing in on James from the top.

A contested 11 ft shot in traffic is a much better outcome for the D than a bunny.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-23-2013, 12:13 PM
Vogal is a ******.

ManRam
05-23-2013, 12:21 PM
LeBron was terrified of Hibbert all night. Like, he refused to even try to finish shots. It wasn't a huge problem because he was dishing out assists left and right and finding better shots for others, but Hibbert was imposing, and especially to LeBron.

Hibbert played 41 minutes and sat 12. In those 12 minutes LeBron got to the rim EIGHT more times than he did in the other 41 minutes.


It was a dumb move. We can assign blame to others, like Paul George who didn't put up much of a fight and who had a TON of defensive hiccups late in the game, but not having Hibbert out there is unjustifiable. I get that Vogel was just trying to match up better, but that was just dumb. He learned his lesson I'm sure.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2013, 12:21 PM
Basketball is a team sport, so it is unfair to blame a single player for one play. There are other plays along the way that other guys dropped the ball on that would have made the difference in Indy's favour. And when a guy on the perimeter loses his guy, the interior defence is expected to pick him up (which usually leaves a guy open). I think it is import here to remember that LBJ is the BEST player in the league (and Riely says of all time). To expect Paul George to contain LBJ, even with just 2.2 seconds on the clock, is perhaps not fair. It's like expecting Batman to guard Superman. Sure, they are both awesome, but it's Superman we are talking about here. I don't think it is a major coaching error because let's be honest, with 2.2 seconds on the clock, most coaches defending the play will put in perimeter defenders because most players can't inbound and drive with the play on the perimeter with only 2.2 seconds on the clock. I'm guessing Spo put out shooters on the floor as well to spread the floor. Vogel made the right call, George is great, but LBJ is the best, and driving to the hole wasn't the expected play there.

If Vogel had left Hibbert on the floor and Bosh ran out to the perimeter to shoot and hit a 3 like he was doing last year in the finals, then Vogel and Hibbert would be blamed, Vogel for not putting out perimeter defenders,
and Hibbert for not being able to step out and defend.

As it worked out, the Heat made a great play. this is more an instance of one team making a great play and not another team making a mistake. I mean, even had Hibbert been there, LBJ would have been able to draw a foul call (even if he didn't draw a foul).

I hate how people rip on guys who make a bad play in the waning seconds of a game when that player played well and the coach did a great job all game, especially when other players made more mistakes.

I mean, George Hill was 2-9 last night. Had he shot .333 from the floor, which is still awful, the Pacers win that game in regulation. David West shot .500 from the free throw line. Had he hit one more in regulation, then the Pacers would have won the game. Stephenson shot .200 from the floor... had he gone 3/10 instead of 2/10, the Pacers would have won.

This is not Vogel's fault, or George's fault. The TEAM lost because the TEAM made mistakes. But it was a great effort against a VERY talented Heat squad. No shame in that loss.

I don't think this is Vogel or George's fault, I think this is an instance of LBJ is just that amazing.

ManRam
05-23-2013, 12:25 PM
Yeah. We're always so eager to assign blame to just one player, but rarely is it ever that cut and dry. There's plenty of blame to go around. Both teams could have ended this thing sooner than it was.

Stinkyoutsider
05-23-2013, 12:33 PM
Tough decision for Vogel to make and it didn't turn out right for him this time.

With there being so little time left, there wouldn't have been much time for a drive and kick so I would have put Hibbert out there. He's not mobile but there's no way Bosh would have been a threat other than an open jumper. I'll take that instead of having Lebron get into the paint.

I think this was the Pacer's best chance to steal one on the road early in the series, similar to what the Bulls did to the Heat in the last series. It's going to be tough for them game 2 but the objective is to split the first 2, then go home and win those 2 to take a 3-1 lead and be in a good position to close Miami out.

_KB24_
05-23-2013, 12:44 PM
LeBron was terrified of Hibbert all night. Like, he refused to even try to finish shots. It wasn't a huge problem because he was dishing out assists left and right and finding better shots for others, but Hibbert was imposing, and especially to LeBron.

Hibbert played 41 minutes and sat 12. In those 12 minutes LeBron got to the rim EIGHT more times than he did in the other 41 minutes.


It was a dumb move. We can assign blame to others, like Paul George who didn't put up much of a fight and who had a TON of defensive hiccups late in the game, but not having Hibbert out there is unjustifiable. I get that Vogel was just trying to match up better, but that was just dumb. He learned his lesson I'm sure.

Pretty much this.

Bruno
05-23-2013, 12:59 PM
you don't take out hibbert. that was an absolutely idiotic move and there's no getting around it.

you're going to build your defensive scheme around the hope that LBJ won't get the switch off George? idiotic. Indiana had the game and Vogel gift wrapped it back to Miami.

Bruno
05-23-2013, 01:02 PM
LeBron was terrified of Hibbert all night. Like, he refused to even try to finish shots. It wasn't a huge problem because he was dishing out assists left and right and finding better shots for others, but Hibbert was imposing, and especially to LeBron.

Hibbert played 41 minutes and sat 12. In those 12 minutes LeBron got to the rim EIGHT more times than he did in the other 41 minutes.


It was a dumb move. We can assign blame to others, like Paul George who didn't put up much of a fight and who had a TON of defensive hiccups late in the game, but not having Hibbert out there is unjustifiable. I get that Vogel was just trying to match up better, but that was just dumb. He learned his lesson I'm sure.

WOW. /thread.

Bruno
05-23-2013, 01:02 PM
It was obviously the wrong move. Yes, he got by George easily for an open layup but that's why you should have your rim protector there just in-case lapses like that happen.

It wasn't even only the last second play.. There was one play before that one where he took Hibbert out and cost them as well. Go up against a midrange shot, or a drive by Lebron which is 99.9% always going in?


yeah, were talking about two plays here. TWICE!

LayBraun
05-23-2013, 01:08 PM
Should Hibbert have been in? Yeah probably. Did George play terrible defense? Yeah he did.

Also, I'm glad not to be on Paul Goerges nuts like everyone else. Yeah he hit a clutch three but it's one shot? Made some big plays as well but also made some terrible mistakes.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-23-2013, 01:12 PM
Actually that would be Ray Allen (you know one of the most clutch players ever) because off the switch Hansbrough (the player who was subbed in for Hibbert) was guarding Allen and not Bosh. Essentially what you're saying is that you'd give one of the greatest shooters ever an open corner jumper.

Instead of giving the best player in the game a free lane to drive in and make an easy layup? I'd take my odds. Plus, 2.2 seconds I doubt Allen or anyone would have had enough time to get the shot off if Lebron drove and kicked it out.

Bruno
05-23-2013, 01:12 PM
Should Hibbert have been in? Yeah probably. Did George play terrible defense? Yeah he did.

Also, I'm glad not to be on Paul Goerges nuts like everyone else. Yeah he hit a clutch three but it's one shot? Made some big plays as well but also made some terrible mistakes.

he blew the play on defense at the end of the game. but it was his final two minutes that made it a ball game. don't forget the defensive strip on wade, and the 2-4 possessions in the final two minutes and overtime when he played LBJ VERY WELL, and limited him to poor passes and contested off balanced jumpers.

george played james as well as ive seen anyone play him this year, until he was left exposed by his coach once the teams primary shot blocker was taken out of the game for "match-up" purposes. Vogel got caught putting the Heat up on the pedestal. he tried to match up with Miami when he had the upper hand; he should have forced Miami to match up with his defensive scheme, anchored around hibbert.

chipper10
05-23-2013, 01:21 PM
Even tho lebron had a triple double he had to earn every inch of it. George was in his face every shot except an easy dunk and the last lay up. Sure we can blame vogel and george but if hill, stephenson, and george dont have horrible shooting nights and west hits some free throws they almost easily win this. I think thats what they need to be thinking goin into the next game rather than wondering what COULD have happened on that last play. They prolly shouldnt have been in the position in the first place. And for the record i vote to keep ur 7 ft big man in the game no matter what with 2 seconds left.

TheLegend
05-23-2013, 01:31 PM
To not have your best rim defender in the game, with the game on the line makes literally no sense at all. You can talk yourself into thinking it was smart not to have a 7ft guy with over a 7ft reach advantage not on the court but you're wrong.

I remember thinking the play before when they took Hibbert out was dumb, and then they got burned on it again...THEN at the end of the game I didn't see Hibbert out there yet again. I told my brother Indiana deserves to lose at this point. Looking at their defensive set up, it just didn't make sense and you knew something bad was going to happen for Indy. Sure enough Lebron gets an "easy layup." Granted you can fault George but in reality, no one person in the NBA can stop Lebron, which is why you take advantage of yoru 7ft guys you have on your team to at least make it hard for him.

The sad thing is, in a similiar situation, Vogel will prob do the same thing and take him out just to prove a point.

I agree, they got burnt twice with Hibbert on the bench. Vogel should've learned because with Hibbert in there I believe Lebron has a different Mindset and probably doesn't even think about driving.

dalton749
05-23-2013, 02:44 PM
im not sure hibbert would have made a difference. hes obviously slower than sam young who didnt get there it time so to say he could have contested it is unlikely.
nobody on the pacers expected lebron to be able to turn 180 and get to the rim when it looked like a typical long three was coming

More-Than-Most
05-23-2013, 02:57 PM
Its Lebron James..... He is a huge freak of nature and honestly do you say anyone stopping him in that situation? I mean Hibbert might have made it somewhat harder but its the king

wizardsfan3
05-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Paul George overplayed it, Hibbert should've been in the game, Sam Young shouldn't be in the NBA.

dodie53
05-23-2013, 06:41 PM
Roy H. should have been guarding the inbounder.
then immediately double team who ever touches the ball coz in 2.2 secs, a return pass is highly unlikely

Cal827
05-23-2013, 06:45 PM
Hibbert shold've been in regardless. He's 7,2. You take the risks of Bosh breaking free a little bit for a mid-range jumper at the buzzer. With Hibbert in there, you would at least be protected from the very high percentage lay-up at the end.

kobe4thewinbang
05-23-2013, 06:45 PM
Its Lebron James..... He is a huge freak of nature and honestly do you say anyone stopping him in that situation? I mean Hibbert might have made it somewhat harder but its the kingI wouldn't have been surprised if Hibbert had been on the floor to contest the layup that LBJ would've heard a whistle as soon as he drove at Hibbert.

ManRam
05-23-2013, 07:18 PM
I wouldn't have been surprised if Hibbert had been on the floor to contest the layup that LBJ would've heard a whistle as soon as he drove at Hibbert.

like exactly what (didn't) happened all game long!

bleedprple&gold
05-23-2013, 07:48 PM
Hibbert should have been in the game for sure. Vogel's strategy was backwards trying to take away the jump shot but not planning against the dribble drive to the hoop? If you're that concerned about Bosh drawing Hibbert away from the basket then play a zone defense, it's not that hard. Vogel embarrassed himself badly here.

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 08:10 PM
like exactly what (didn't) happened all game long!

Except once in the 4th apparently lol


BBALLBREAKDOWN ‏@bballSource 2h
Just saw LeBron's left handed layup over Hibbert with 8:37 left in 4th. Could easily see same result had Hibbert been in at end

Kyben36
05-23-2013, 08:27 PM
I dont think you can blame hibert being in or our, they ran a play and the defense gave up a layup to the guy you know the ball was going to, how that happends IDK.

ManRam
05-23-2013, 09:23 PM
Except once in the 4th apparently lol

yeah, the "OMG the refs just hand lebron and the heat everything" argument can't at all be applied to last night.

JordansBulls
05-23-2013, 10:17 PM
George was probably thinking the paint would be protected so he wanted to get all up on Lebron as close as possible.

kobe4thewinbang
05-23-2013, 10:19 PM
George was probably thinking the paint would be protected so he wanted to get all up on Lebron as close as possible.That's what she said.

ManRam
05-23-2013, 10:26 PM
George was probably thinking the paint would be protected so he wanted to get all up on Lebron as close as possible.

which would have been a great idea if hibbert was in the game. but since he wasn't, george has to know better.


i feel like lebron was extra motivated to finish the game driving to the left and laying it in just to spite jordan's "scouting report"

kdspurman
05-23-2013, 11:42 PM
yeah, the "OMG the refs just hand lebron and the heat everything" argument can't at all be applied to last night.

Not at all.