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View Full Version : what stats/combination of stats do you value most when judging a player?



el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 10:11 PM
simple question. which stats do you value most? if you value a group of stats in combination, list them. make separate tiers for stats if you would like. separate defense and offense obviously.

amos1er
05-20-2013, 10:14 PM
Oh boy.

And it begins...

MrfadeawayJB
05-20-2013, 10:45 PM
Offense: total points responsible for

Defense: deflections/charges taken (although its not officially kept)

b@llhog24
05-20-2013, 10:46 PM
Box scores or advanced?

ManRam
05-20-2013, 10:51 PM
ringz and the awesomeness of one's mini-fro

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 10:53 PM
ringz and the awesomeness of one's mini-fro
i dont see number of tough fade aways made on your list

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 10:53 PM
Box scores or advanced?

either, they are both stats

b@llhog24
05-20-2013, 11:04 PM
either, they are both stats

This makes no sense. Why would anyone take BPG over PER in judging overall player value?

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 11:08 PM
This makes no sense. Why would anyone take BPG over PER in judging overall player value?

for one, BPG is a defensive stat and PER is an offensive stat. some people value box scores over advanced stats. like this for example

1. PER, WS, WS/48
2. TS%, eFG%

or you can go one by 1. but if you value 1 group over another, that works. just an example

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2013, 11:20 PM
Depends on what I am judging that player on (shooting, defense, efficiency, etc). But advanced stats along with content from watching the game.

Source
05-20-2013, 11:21 PM
depends on position, for example for a center I would look at points/rebounds/blocks

IndyRealist
05-20-2013, 11:31 PM
This makes no sense. Why would anyone take BPG over PER in judging overall player value?


"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating

JasonJohnHorn
05-21-2013, 12:11 AM
I depends on position an context. Role-playing jump shooters I look at FG%/3pt%. I expect them to have higher percentages because they get open looks. I don't expect high volume scorers to shoot as high a percentage, but I still look at percentage for them as well. SG and SF I look for them to get assists and rebounds that total up to 10 a game. PG I look at assists-to-turnover ration and assists per 36min.... C's and PF I look at rebounds.

Scoring is all dependent on context.

LongWayFromHome
05-21-2013, 12:45 AM
In my mind there is a sort of sliding scale where scoring volume meets efficiency.

Like I would value 20.1 ppg on TS 561, eFG 500 over 23.8 pg on TS 531, eFG 469 assuming both players were the main offensive players with similar offensive support but would value a less efficient scorer with much higher volume or with less offensive support.

Defensive stats such as: STL, BLK mean almost nothing to me. Still not sure how accurate dRAT is but I do tend to like defensive WS.

I have started to realize however that rebounds can be a very misleading stat as many guys are great team rebounders by boxing out even though they don't get as many rebounds personally.

Its difficult. But I guess I will go with the cliche PER, WS, W/48

NeverSayNevur
05-21-2013, 12:54 AM
rings + number of threads el hidalgo makes about him

b@llhog24
05-21-2013, 01:03 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating

So you'd take BPG over PER ceteris paribus? Cause that's literally what I'm asking. I'm aware that PER rewards shot creators.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2013, 12:13 PM
Rings and the NBA coaches poll is the sole way I judge a player.

jerellh528
05-21-2013, 12:49 PM
Rings and the NBA coaches poll is the sole way I judge a player.

You don't take anything else into account? I find that hard to believe, but to each their own I guess.

b@llhog24
05-21-2013, 02:01 PM
Rings and the NBA coaches poll is the sole way I judge a player.

Don't forget Youtube videos.

el hidalgo
05-21-2013, 02:04 PM
Don't forget Youtube videos.

he clearly forgot magic johnson's opinion

True Sports Fan
05-21-2013, 02:05 PM
BPG
FG%

I rank those above everything else. Then follows PPG and SPG along with RPG

Swashcuff
05-21-2013, 02:07 PM
Offense: total points responsible for

Defense: deflections/charges taken (although its not officially kept)

Charges taken and deflections are both recorded. I know where to get the info on the charges not the deflections however. I do remember in 2010 hearing an announcer say that Iguodala leads the league in deflections and reading it somewhere else. It's officially kept.

Swashcuff
05-21-2013, 02:12 PM
In my mind there is a sort of sliding scale where scoring volume meets efficiency.

Like I would value 20.1 ppg on TS 561, eFG 500 over 23.8 pg on TS 531, eFG 469 assuming both players were the main offensive players with similar offensive support but would value a less efficient scorer with much higher volume or with less offensive support.

Defensive stats such as: STL, BLK mean almost nothing to me. Still not sure how accurate dRAT is but I do tend to like defensive WS.

I have started to realize however that rebounds can be a very misleading stat as many guys are great team rebounders by boxing out even though they don't get as many rebounds personally.

Its difficult. But I guess I will go with the cliche PER, WS, W/48

DWS says Carlos Boozer is a top 5 defensive PF in the league over the past 3 seasons. There are much better defensive stats out there.

D-Leethal
05-21-2013, 02:13 PM
Depends on what position your judging and what type of role they are asked to play.

b@llhog24
05-21-2013, 02:22 PM
Charges taken and deflections are both recorded. I know where to get the info on the charges not the deflections however. I do remember in 2010 hearing an announcer say that Iguodala leads the league in deflections and reading it somewhere else. It's officially kept.

Normally the asst coaches keep track of them and I think even hockey assists.

tredigs
05-21-2013, 02:30 PM
If you really want a solid statistical look at production - I go RAPM + WinShares/48 + USG% for overall impact.

For scoring - PPG X TS%.

For playmaking - Assist% + Turnover% + Usage%

For defense - Defensive Win Shares + DRAPM.

Plenty of other stats to check out with these (like how effective your blocks actually are - Duncan generally having near the highest rating - Howard generally having near the lowest), but if we're talking stats in general those are the ones I'd start with for each of those facets of the game.

tredigs
05-21-2013, 02:33 PM
Some of the best stats I've seen from the APBR forum are even better, especially defensively (I used to like 82 games opponents PER, too, I've just seen too many irregularities there to fully trust it), but a lot of them aren't updated quite enough to hit the mainstream yet.

Suns12
05-21-2013, 03:20 PM
1. Shooting percentages
2. Assist to TO ratio
3. Steals + Blocks per Personal Foul
4. Rebounds

I don't want a pg who's assist/TO ratio is worse than 2/1
I don't want a C worse than 1/1

OceanSpray
05-21-2013, 03:31 PM
FMG-FGA, assists, rebounds, turnovers.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2013, 03:42 PM
Don't forget Youtube videos.

I forgot that, and the opinions of all ex players, as long as they don't compliment LeBron James.

JiffyMix88
05-21-2013, 03:43 PM
fg%

Hawkeye15
05-21-2013, 03:45 PM
I also rate a player on how many times they ***** about a no-call

el hidalgo
05-21-2013, 03:47 PM
I also rate a player on how many times they ***** about a no-call

Deductions based on how many all-stars the player teamed up with must be accounted for

Hawkeye15
05-21-2013, 03:48 PM
Deductions based on how many all-stars the player teamed up with must be accounted for

do we deduct for players being drafted to teams that gave them all stars? Or are we only penalizing players who were cowards and sought out their help?

jerellh528
05-22-2013, 01:41 PM
A mod ^, contributing trash to the thread. No wonder NBA main forum is so bad.... if gold rust, what then will iron do?

IKnowHoops
05-22-2013, 03:47 PM
After Tre helped educate me I look at this
1.PER
2.TS%
3.MVP's
4.Rings

Hawkeye15
05-22-2013, 04:08 PM
A mod ^, contributing trash to the thread. No wonder NBA main forum is so bad.... if gold rust, what then will iron do?

Did you think the contributions were going to be solid in this thread?

b@llhog24
05-22-2013, 04:10 PM
A mod ^, contributing trash to the thread. No wonder NBA main forum is so bad.... if gold rust, what then will iron do?

Lol what kind of cheap **** do you buy?

Labgrownmangoat
05-22-2013, 06:12 PM
Plus/minus points while the player is on the floor. It takes into account defense and offense.

ThaDubs
05-22-2013, 06:14 PM
Oh boy.

And it begins...

What? A debate?

ThaDubs
05-22-2013, 06:15 PM
A mod ^, contributing trash to the thread. No wonder NBA main forum is so bad.... if gold rust, what then will iron do?

Gold doesn't rust.

b_russ
05-22-2013, 06:29 PM
Ringz, game winning field goal attempts, number of self-referencing hashtags per tweet and law suit victories.

YoungOne
05-22-2013, 06:43 PM
my eyes :)

The_Jamal
05-22-2013, 06:49 PM
Hca

jerellh528
05-22-2013, 09:16 PM
Lol what kind of cheap **** do you buy?


Gold doesn't rust.

Its a quote from a great writer during the time of Europe's black plague, 1300s Geoffrey Chaucer. Wouldn't expect anyone here to know that though.

raiderposting
05-22-2013, 10:18 PM
Height/weight +( shoe size *rings )+ (obsession with a certain player^2+ number of threads trying to diss this player made by the same person)- value of that persons life.

JiffyMix88
05-23-2013, 11:19 AM
Its a quote from a great writer during the time of Europe's black plague, 1300s Geoffrey Chaucer. Wouldn't expect anyone here to know that though.

I lauged at their response like they don't know what a metaphor is lol

LongWayFromHome
05-23-2013, 11:24 AM
Height/weight +( shoe size *rings )+ (obsession with a certain player^2+ number of threads trying to diss this player made by the same person)- value of that persons life.

Colby Brian?

3RDASYSTEM
05-23-2013, 12:14 PM
simple question. which stats do you value most? if you value a group of stats in combination, list them. make separate tiers for stats if you would like. separate defense and offense obviously.

When I judge a player its basically preNBA, I don't know how I do it but it just comes that way(also playing helps judge a lot better than non players), the best players usually dominate they final yr in college and carry it over to nba

the best of the best are usually allnba type caliber rookie yr and for decade plus

then I look at the player talent around that 'best' player

for example SHAQ in ORL, he had PENNY and others but it was clear he was the best clear cut franchise player because of how PENNY got handled by AI after SHAQ left while SHAQ was in LA racking up WCF/Finals app and titles then on to MIA to the same thing in LA with lesser yrs, I know he had BEAN and WADE but look at the hardwood impact he had in w-l with him starting and injured

I value the coach/gm/owner over everything when it comes down to players like SHAQ-BRON-IVERSON-DREAM-JORDAN and so on

LongWayFromHome
05-23-2013, 12:36 PM
When I judge a player its basically preNBA, I don't know how I do it but it just comes that way(also playing helps judge a lot better than non players), the best players usually dominate they final yr in college and carry it over to nba

the best of the best are usually allnba type caliber rookie yr and for decade plus

then I look at the player talent around that 'best' player

for example SHAQ in ORL, he had PENNY and others but it was clear he was the best clear cut franchise player because of how PENNY got handled by AI after SHAQ left while SHAQ was in LA racking up WCF/Finals app and titles then on to MIA to the same thing in LA with lesser yrs, I know he had BEAN and WADE but look at the hardwood impact he had in w-l with him starting and injured

I value the coach/gm/owner over everything when it comes down to players like SHAQ-BRON-IVERSON-DREAM-JORDAN and so on


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

b@llhog24
05-23-2013, 12:41 PM
Its a quote from a great writer during the time of Europe's black plague, 1300s Geoffrey Chaucer. Wouldn't expect anyone here to know that though.

I knew what it meant, doesn't make it any less illogical.