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View Full Version : What do you value more when rating a player: longevity or peak dominance?



el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 02:14 AM
simple question: when rating a player overall, do you look more at their longevity or how great they were during peak/peak years? you see some players who had extreme longevity but were never completely dominant, and you see some players who were completely dominant for a few years but without the same longevity. of course there are players like jordan and lebron who were on top for most of the years in their career, but those guys are rare and that is what makes them special. opinions?

JasonJohnHorn
05-20-2013, 02:42 AM
Longevity counts for a lot in my book. Karl Malone and Stockton were great... they both had long sustained peeks though as well. I loved Moses and Kareem... I've never been a big Kidd fan both due to the domestic abuse and the DUI, but on the court he has amassed an impressive career. Nash. Kobe and Duncan have both put in a lot of impressive years as well. Allen and Garnett and Pierce.


Let's compare Barkley with Malone and Garnett. I think at his peek, Barkley was perhaps better than either of them. He out rebounded Malone in his best season and easily ourscored Garnett in his best season, but Malone especially and Garnett both sustained a high level of play for a longer time, both had better conditioning and Garnett was lights out the better defender. So I would rank Malone and Garnett higher than Barkley.

Looking at Thomas and Stockton, it's the same thing. Thomas, when he was playing at his best, which was never consistently, he was better than Stockton on his best day. Over the course of a season though Thomas's FG% never touched Stockton's and he only scored more because he shot more. But watching Thomas hitting on all cylinders in the playoffs... WOW!!! But He was done by the time he hit 30 pretty much. There was a steep decline at 29 years old for Thomas where as Stockton, at the age of 40, still manage to lead the league in assists per36 minutes. At 40 years old Stockton was still in the top 5 for assists. TOP FIVE!!!! If you look at Thomas's stats from 29 years old and put them next to Stockton, Stockton literally DOUBLED Thomas's assists per game! That is insane. Thomas has two rings and a finals MVP, but Stockton easily had the better career.

Tony_Starks
05-20-2013, 02:57 AM
High level, productive longevity. Aka Kareem. When you are at all star level basically your entire career that is extremely impressive. Over say someone like Shaq that had some years of absolute dominance but was a shell of himself the last maybe 4 years.

Bravo95
05-20-2013, 02:59 AM
I guess a slight lean to longevity. I mean, a player who can still kick *** into his mid-30s and beyond will get the nod from me. Jordan averaging 20-5-5 at nearly 40 years old, Kareem's FMVP at age 37, Kobe this past season, etc. It's a young man's game, gotta respect the greats who can still get it done.

NeverSayNevur
05-20-2013, 03:39 AM
Kobe

sc8581
05-20-2013, 03:55 AM
Peak dominance probably. The window of opportunity is usually only so big anyway, plus one player in the NBA can make a much bigger difference than in other sports. Tracy McGrady was great for like 7 seasons, Reggie Miller was good for twice as long, if it's all about rings i'm taking T-Mac. Just my opinion, random comparison off the top of my head by the way.

b@llhog24
05-20-2013, 06:41 AM
Peak.

gatkins11
05-20-2013, 11:28 AM
Interesting question. Personally, I would say longevity matters more.

JiffyMix88
05-20-2013, 12:01 PM
I think a prime T-Mac and Iverson were more dominating than Kobe was but Kobe has longevity on his side and because of that long ride he's had he's been fortunate to play with some other great players during their primes and won a couple of championships in the run. So If I could of had a team full of great role players I would take a player who was only gonna give me 3-5 years of dominance instead of a second rated star thats gonna play 17 years and hope to find another great player to go along with him.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2013, 12:18 PM
Has to be a mix of both. Take McGrady for example. One of the best peaks since Jordan, but he will never sniff top 25 all time. On the other hand, you can have a very long career, and not have a peak worthy of considering. Robert Parrish for example.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 12:49 PM
High level, productive longevity. Aka Kareem. When you are at all star level basically your entire career that is extremely impressive. Over say someone like Shaq that had some years of absolute dominance but was a shell of himself the last maybe 4 years.
Yea but couldn't people point to Kareem for high level peak run too?

A more apt comparison of continuous All-Star play is a guy like Reggie Miller vs a guy like David Robinson.

Shaq has more All-NBA Selections than all but like 2 players, thats pretty great longevity.

whitemamba33
05-20-2013, 01:52 PM
Longevity. But context is important.

A player who can maintain a high level of play over a long period of time gives the best opportunity to win a championship. Some players go off for 2-3 year runs, but if by chance the front office isn't able to put a solid supporting cast around that player in those 2-3 years, it goes to waste. You have to maximize the window.

JordansBulls
05-20-2013, 01:59 PM
Both are important. For instance, David Robinson had a tremendous peak, but then someone like Karl Malone who had a great peak but just much better longevitiy would put him over someone like Robinson overall.

ManRam
05-20-2013, 02:00 PM
i give peak dominance a little more, but obviously both are important.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 02:02 PM
Both are important. For instance, David Robinson had a tremendous peak, but then someone like Karl Malone who had a great peak but just much better longevitiy would put him over someone like Robinson overall.
Yea thats a tough one. Malone vs D-Rob that is

Tony_Starks
05-20-2013, 02:13 PM
Yea but couldn't people point to Kareem for high level peak run too?

A more apt comparison of continuous All-Star play is a guy like Reggie Miller vs a guy like David Robinson.

Shaq has more All-NBA Selections than all but like 2 players, thats pretty great longevity.

Where do we place work ethic into the equation? Because with a better work ethic guys like AI, TMac, Vince could've easily had HOF first ballad careers. They had awesome peaks but barring injury those guys could've had nice longevity as well.

IKnowHoops
05-20-2013, 02:27 PM
I like Peak more, but I admit both are important. I'd place Bo Jackson above Marcus Allen easily. Marcus had the longevity, but Bo came in off of baseball season and started immediately over Marcus. I don't see how you can say Marcus was better than Bo.

Bo is the poster child of Peak meaning more. Bo was a top 5 runningback of all time who only played 3 (3/5) seasons.

naps
05-20-2013, 02:28 PM
Can't pick just one of these. Has to be a mixture of both. Right phrase would be sustained pure dominance just like we have seen from guys like Jordan, Kareem etc. or now what we are seeing from LeBron.

urban85disciple
05-20-2013, 03:32 PM
Its hilarious how people don't answer the question being asked; and the one's that do misinterpret the question, or put their own spin on it. OP, should've probably used examples.

Anyway, I slightly value peak performance over longevity when rating a player. It gets blurry when you have guys who've maximized both but when comparing the average baller peak dominance matters more. I'd take Yao Ming's short career over a Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby, etc. You gotta look at this on a curve cause at a certain point of productivity the ratings switch (ex: T-Mac vs. Kobe).

Chronz
05-20-2013, 03:34 PM
Where do we place work ethic into the equation?
Prolly beneath the place with the hypothetical section of talk, rather focus on what players did than what they could have done. For example, I dont care if Shaq could have been the greatest over hardworking David Robinson over there, but he wound up the better player regardless.


Because with a better work ethic guys like AI, TMac, Vince could've easily had HOF first ballad careers.
Well yea, and with worse work ethic they would have never attained the level of play either....... not seeing what your point is. Isn't the point to grade players on what they actually got out of their situations rather than what they could have done?


They had awesome peaks but barring injury those guys could've had nice longevity as well.
Yea but then it wouldn't be a Peak vs Longevity type deal. I think its obvious to everyone that you would rather play at a high level - forever. But thats not always the case, and its not always the result of the individual. Its mostly genetics/luck, lots of players have admitted as much. Some people just aren't born to run up and down a court their entire lives. It is in these cases that they have to have a really strong peak run to make up for the lack of longevity.


I would have done this thread by giving various comparable examples. This way you can get a sense of the persons ideals.

Like heres one for you.
Would you rather have Shawn Kemp and the glimpse of greatness he gives you. Or the tame/consistent All-Star ish play of a Kevin Willis?

Chris Webber or Rasheed Wallace?

These are peak vs longevity arguments, sprinkled in with alot of other subjective arguments.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 03:34 PM
DATS NUFF GUYS

Combination of both should go without saying. Give examples of cases where either one closed an argument for you, that provides insight to your mental methodology....

Sadds The Gr8
05-20-2013, 03:37 PM
Peak dominance by a little

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 03:41 PM
DATS NUFF GUYS

Combination of both should go without saying. Give examples of cases where either one closed an argument for you, that provides insight to your mental methodology....

kobe is an example of longevity. great, long career, but was never the best on a team. id rate tmac above him due to his far superior peak. put tmac on the teams kobe has been on, and he would have 4 or 5 rings IMO.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 04:06 PM
Its hilarious how people don't answer the question being asked; and the one's that do misinterpret the question, or put their own spin on it. OP, should've probably used examples.

Anyway, I slightly value peak performance over longevity when rating a player. It gets blurry when you have guys who've maximized both but when comparing the average baller peak dominance matters more. I'd take Yao Ming's short career over a Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby, etc. You gotta look at this on a curve cause at a certain point of productivity the ratings switch (ex: T-Mac vs. Kobe).
Bingo

Chronz
05-20-2013, 04:11 PM
kobe is an example of longevity. great, long career, but was never the best on a team. id rate tmac above him due to his far superior peak. put tmac on the teams kobe has been on, and he would have 4 or 5 rings IMO.
Thats a touchy subject, would much rather see examples of players that dont have such dramatically different team wins.

Because at that point you make this argument more than just about peak vs longevity, you have to factor in subjective arguments about winning, comp, support etc...

Whereas if you focus on similarly decorated players, or at least not 5 rings vs 0 playoff series wins, its more about individual performances.

Jayrich28
05-20-2013, 06:32 PM
peak over longevity.....three players who careers end earlier than expected bird, magic, and isiah yes Isiah...and its funny that two of those 3 get no beef in there place in history but the one that does is isiah and the classic longevity character is stockton.
Isiah peak was so much better than stockton but he had a much shorter career. But guess what a guy like stockton played so long mainly cuz he was chasing something isiah has rings. Then people say well isiah had better team. I dont remember isiah playing with a top 5 pf or a career 25 pt per game pf. I think people on here just dont like isiah because stockton was not better than isiah. And I know if isiah had maloneall his career malone would have a ring.

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 06:54 PM
peak over longevity.....three players who careers end earlier than expected bird, magic, and isiah yes Isiah...and its funny that two of those 3 get no beef in there place in history but the one that does is isiah and the classic longevity character is stockton.
Isiah peak was so much better than stockton but he had a much shorter career. But guess what a guy like stockton played so long mainly cuz he was chasing something isiah has rings. Then people say well isiah had better team. I dont remember isiah playing with a top 5 pf or a career 25 pt per game pf. I think people on here just dont like isiah because stockton was not better than isiah. And I know if isiah had maloneall his career malone would have a ring.
um, no

Jayrich28
05-20-2013, 07:19 PM
Um yes what did stockton do in the eighties when isiah was winning finals mvp..or dropping 40 and driving mj and bird crazy.

Jayrich28
05-20-2013, 07:22 PM
stockton couldnt carry a team any where if u started a team with him as the best player.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2013, 07:36 PM
Peak by the slightest margin. But have to factor in both.

NeverSayNevur
05-20-2013, 09:07 PM
kobe is an example of longevity. great, long career, but was never the best on a team. id rate tmac above him due to his far superior peak. put tmac on the teams kobe has been on, and he would have 4 or 5 rings IMO.

and finally you spit it out

amos1er
05-20-2013, 09:09 PM
and finally you spit it out

Like we all didn't know what he was up too. :rolleyes:

Hidalgo isn't very ninja like at all, but he can obsess with the best of them.

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 09:37 PM
damn, some people just can't handle the opinions of others. I think tmac was one of the greatest ever during his prime. unfortunately, injuries cut it short. Had he been on a better team in his prime years, he would have multiple championships.

NeverSayNevur
05-20-2013, 09:47 PM
damn, some people just can't handle the opinions of others. I think tmac was one of the greatest ever during his prime. unfortunately, injuries cut it short. Had he been on a better team in his prime years, he would have multiple championships.

Had Kobe been on a better team he'd win 10 straight championships.

i.got.the.nutz
05-20-2013, 09:52 PM
L


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L


kobe is an example of longevity. Great, long career, but was never the best on a team. Id rate tmac above him due to his far superior peak. Put tmac on the teams kobe has been on, and he would have 4 or 5 rings imo.

amos1er
05-20-2013, 10:16 PM
L


o


L


Yup...I think we may have discovered the real agenda behind this thread. Just a hunch.

pedrofan45
05-20-2013, 10:38 PM
Peak is more important in my book

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 10:43 PM
Just one question for the guy who thinks Tmac was better than Kobe. Why do you have Kobe as your avatar? I can send you some Tmac faces if you need help. Unless you are a TROLL I don't understand why you would have an avatar of a player you don't have much respect for, which is fine your opinion. So why have an avatar of a player you don't like? To bait? In case you have not noticed by now we get it you dont like Kobe, the Lakers, or Laker fans. Do you really have to make a million threads about it though, seriously? i mean you set this one up like usual ask a question, wait for others to respond so that you can respond with something you wanted to say in the first place. All these backhanded threads are transparent, anyone who has half a brain knows what your purpose is. You seem obsessed with a player you dislike, I've never seen someone waste their time on someone they dislike as much as you, maybe you really are trapped in Kobe's basement because he obviously has some kind of hold on your daily thinking.

pedrofan45
05-20-2013, 11:09 PM
Just one question for the guy who thinks Tmac was better than Kobe. Why do you have Kobe as your avatar? I can send you some Tmac faces if you need help. Unless you are a TROLL I don't understand why you would have an avatar of a player you don't have much respect for, which is fine your opinion. So why have an avatar of a player you don't like? To bait? In case you have not noticed by now we get it you dont like Kobe, the Lakers, or Laker fans. Do you really have to make a million threads about it though, seriously? i mean you set this one up like usual ask a question, wait for others to respond so that you can respond with something you wanted to say in the first place. All these backhanded threads are transparent, anyone who has half a brain knows what your purpose is. You seem obsessed with a player you dislike, I've never seen someone waste their time on someone they dislike as much as you, maybe you really are trapped in Kobe's basement because he obviously has some kind of hold on your daily thinking.

Everyone knows he's a kobe hater/troll but it's still a good enough thread to reply to :shrug:

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 11:11 PM
Just one question for the guy who thinks Tmac was better than Kobe. Why do you have Kobe as your avatar? I can send you some Tmac faces if you need help. Unless you are a TROLL I don't understand why you would have an avatar of a player you don't have much respect for, which is fine your opinion. So why have an avatar of a player you don't like? To bait? In case you have not noticed by now we get it you dont like Kobe, the Lakers, or Laker fans. Do you really have to make a million threads about it though, seriously? i mean you set this one up like usual ask a question, wait for others to respond so that you can respond with something you wanted to say in the first place. All these backhanded threads are transparent, anyone who has half a brain knows what your purpose is. You seem obsessed with a player you dislike, I've never seen someone waste their time on someone they dislike as much as you, maybe you really are trapped in Kobe's basement because he obviously has some kind of hold on your daily thinking.

im a laker fan, and kobe was the best laker player when i got here. i just got turned off of him by the blind homers here. i say lebron is better and i get attacked for being a hater. i just havent bothered changing my sig.

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 11:11 PM
Everyone knows he's a kobe hater/troll but it's still a good enough thread to reply to :shrug:

you can't make a thread now a days if some people dislike you

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 11:14 PM
Everyone knows he's a kobe hater/troll but it's still a good enough thread to reply to :shrug:
Yea. I guess everybody knows the obvious. I just was trying to gain some insight of what kind of person wastes so much time trolling baiting on here. Hard to take anyone seriously with an agenda like his. I mean all of these trolls on here are starting to really take a toll on this place. That goes for any type of troll Kobe loving ones as well, but I don't think I've seen a worse one yet. Dedicating a whole account to solely talking about someone you don't like. I guess people get their thrills in life different ways.

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 11:20 PM
im a laker fan, and kobe was the best laker player when i got here. i just got turned off of him by the blind homers here. i say lebron is better and i get attacked for being a hater. i just havent bothered changing my sig.
Lol. Right so you haven't got around to changing your avatar but change your sig with quotes almost daily? Also if you are a Laker fan then why when referring to the heat you say "we?" I know you will just keep playing this game, but lets not say turned off by him, man you are obsessed. You comment more on this site about kobe than any Kobe dick sucker ever has. I mean we get it you like getting reactions out of people in regards to Kobe, I mean if thats what does it for you then good for you. We all have to have a passion/goal in life yours is just a little different from others. You should really just be yourself. People will accept you for who you are. It might take awhile for people to accept you but just be yourself. No need to pose as something you aren't for attention.

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 11:23 PM
Lol. Right so you haven't got around to changing your avatar but change your sig with quotes almost daily? Also if you are a Laker fan then why when referring to the heat you say "we?" I mean we get it you like getting reactions out of people in regards to Kobe, I mean if thats what does it for you then good for you. We all have to have a passion/goal in life yours is just a little different from others. You should really just be yourself. People will accept you for who you are. It might take awhile for people to accept you but just be yourself. No need to pose as something you aren't for attention.

example? i never did this. if i was a heat fan, i would post in the heat forum. im a lakers and bulls fan. check my posts, i only post there. never once have posted in the heat forum.

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 11:30 PM
example? i never did this.
I'm sure I've seen it. I'm not going to dig it up to quote it. Going through posts and posts isnt my idea of a good time. I don't dig through posts to quote people's ****. I just always thought you were an odd character, always bashing a player you have represented in your avatar. Then as the threads and posts came up I understood completely. Some people are on here to really talk sports others for attention. It doesn't really matter what I think I just wanted to see if getting reactions from people really excites you as much as we think it does.

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 11:36 PM
I'm sure I've seen it. I'm not going to dig it up to quote it. Going through posts and posts isnt my idea of a good time. I don't dig through posts to quote people's ****. I just always thought you were an odd character, always bashing a player you have represented in your avatar. Then as the threads and posts came up I understood completely. Some people are on here to really talk sports others for attention. It doesn't really matter what I think I just wanted to see if getting reactions from people really excites you as much as we think it does.
sounds like BS to me. i never said "we" when talking about the heat. youre making that up.

Source
05-20-2013, 11:38 PM
why dont you quit already lol its so obvious

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 11:40 PM
sounds like BS to me. i never said "we" when talking about the heat. youre making that up.
Ok. Just remember man be yourself. Be yourself. You can overcome your issues and problems if you just be yourself.

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 11:42 PM
why dont you quit already lol its so obvious
I know man I'm just trying to help someone out. It's not about sports it's about him being comfortable with being himself. I'm trying to help him on a personal level. This is deeper than basketball.

el hidalgo
05-20-2013, 11:43 PM
I know man I'm just trying to help someone out. It's not about sports it's about him being comfortable with being himself. I'm trying to help him on a personal level. This is deeper than basketball.

you really owned me there bro. im scarred. now please quit derailing my thread,

Purple_n_Gold
05-20-2013, 11:49 PM
you really owned me there bro. im scarred. now please quit derailing my thread,
Owned? What's that? You are not my slave. No one owns you, you hear that NOBODY! I'm really just trying to help you in being comfortable in your own skin and with yourself. Be yourself. People will like you for who you are not for who they want you to be. Hope you aren't taking this negatively. People have taken the wrong approach with you you need to be helped made confident not hated and torn down. Be yourself.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2013, 01:07 AM
Well just to try and save the thread.

Peak dominance > Longevity AKA Bo Jackson > Marcus Allen

Any questions or debate about this?

i.got.the.nutz
05-21-2013, 04:40 AM
Is this thread in real life?