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View Full Version : Is Carmelo a legit center piece for a championship team?



AWC713
05-19-2013, 03:02 AM
Please no trolling. I know some posters may think I am due to my title. I'm not saying that Carmelo is NOT a legit center piece...however, I am saying that should be up for discussion (without people getting mad or offended)

Carmelo will be entering his 12th season next year.

He is obviously a great scorer during the regular season, but his exit from this year's playoff, and his playoff history, does leave a lot of questions. Maybe his injury (and IND defense) had something to do with his poor shooting performance (listed below)

10-28 1 ast
13-26 3 ast
6-16 1 ast
9-23 1 ast
12-28 0 ast
15-29 2 ast

Carmelo has been the center piece on every team he's been on. In 10 playoff runs, his team has been eliminated in the 1st round 8 times. A lot of playoff success depends on other players...so, is this Knicks system failing, or is Carmelo not a number 1 option on a championship team?

EDIT: just saw a couple other carmelo threads, mods feel free to shut down if you want...or people can discuss this since the topic is slightly different

odiz
05-19-2013, 03:24 AM
The Knicks are Carmelo plus a bunch of spot up shooters and a mentally deranged JR Smith. They dont have anyone else who can consistently create their own shots and literally no-one who can score in the post when Stoudemire isn't healthy. I think with a better supporting cast he could be a legit center piece on a true contender. CP3, Durant, Harden etc. have all made it pretty clear in these playoffs that nobody (besides maybe Lebron) is good enough to win on their own.

NYK|NYY
05-19-2013, 03:28 AM
Chris Paul arguably had a better roster around him than Melo (in a tougher west) but always the focus on Melo! I think you could do a lot worse then Melo as a center piece.

sep11ie
05-19-2013, 03:33 AM
What were you really expecting from this thread? Really?

AWC713
05-19-2013, 03:37 AM
What were you really expecting from this thread? Really?

the two answers before you were pretty sufficient.

DDynO
05-19-2013, 03:40 AM
No, he isn't.

FOXHOUND
05-19-2013, 03:49 AM
It's a combination of many things, but it's also practically an impossible question to answer.

First, his playoff record obviously isn't good, but that's also a team stat. He has made the playoffs every year of his career, even though he went to a franchise that won 17 games the year before, hadn't made the playoffs since the 1994-95 season (as a 41-41 8th seed) and hadn't had a 50-win season since the 1987-88 season. Is it really fair to hold his playoff success from those early years over his head when that team was just lucky to be there?

I mean his rookie season he draws Minnesota at their best under KG, 58-24 and took the Shaq-Kobe Lakers to 6 despite massive injuries. As if that wasn't a rough enough start his second season he draws San Antonio in a year they went on to win the Finals, an unfortunate trend in his career. Not just that but those first two years he was still struggling with consistency as a young player in an impossibly tough conference. The fact that they didn't get swept in either of those series is impressive to me. That's a very rough 2-8 start to a playoff career.

His third year was his first strong season, so I think from that point on it's fair to start judging him harshly. This was also the year he had the worst playoff series in his career, IMO. He was on a lower seeded team, but they won just three less games. This was a chance for him to shine and take his team to a playoff series win, or at least a tough series. He shot 33% for the series and they lost in 5. That was one ugly series, although if it's any consolation to him those Clippers went on to take MVP Nash's Suns to game 7 in the next round. Still the best Clipper team in their franchises history lol.

So that's a 3-12 start, with him fairly liable for a 1-4 record. Rough start.

Next year he improved, and had his first strong playoff series. He averaged 26.8 PPG and 8.6 REB on a .480/.500/.795 shooting line. Impressive stuff considering the opponent... who was once against matched up with the Spurs, and once again in a season they would go on to win the NBA Finals. Really not that much he can do in that spot, once again. He did start the series off with a really strong game and got the upset win in game 1, avoiding the sweep and giving his team a punchers chance. Not much more you can ask than that, but being heavily over matched they went on to lose in 5.

That's 4-16 so far, and already a good idea why he has that ugly playoff mark for his career.

Next year he had more bad luck, but also the second worst playoff series of his career IMO. He ended up shooting 36%, although that's a bit misleading since it was mainly one awful shooting game of 5-22 which anchored down the total %. But once again, Carmelo was matched up against a team that would win the west, only this time it was the Los Angeles Lakers. He did play poorly though, and they did get swept.

4-20. Five years, three teams that won the west with top 10 players of all time in their prime, two of them winning the Finals, another year just happy to be there as a rookie against another all timer in his peak in KG with his strongest team and one flat out ugly series. Already at this point I would say it's fair to give him a break on this overall team record.

This is the year where it turned around, albeit briefly. He finally had a strong team, and in turn came through as the 2nd seed in the west. He steamrolled through the Chris Paul led Hornets, including the biggest playoff win in NBA history, 4-1. He steamrolled the Dirk Nowitzki led Mavericks, 4-1. Then came the 1 seed Lakers. Coming in on a hot streak he was scorching in games 1 and 2, getting the split to give them Nuggets a chance and ending his 30+ point streak at 5, tying Jordan's playoff record, with an average of 35 PPG on 50%. Then it all fell apart. He lost his shot, although he got to the line a lot, and had 4 rough shooting games. The Nuggets got out one more win but ultimately lost in 6 to yet another team that went on to win the NBA Finals.

That bumped up his total playoff record to 14-26, a 12-18 mark since his third season and also a 4-16 mark against the Lakers/Spurs in years that they win the west/Finals. So overall he was 10-10 when he didn't have to play legendary teams in years they won the Finals or appeared in it. I think that fits a theme, a combination of bad luck and just a couple of rough series. He was only the higher seed twice, and he won those two series 4-1 a piece.

The next year was more unfortunate bad luck for him. The Nuggets were thriving and looking forward to another deep run with the playoff core that got them two wins from the Finals, but tragedy struck and George Karl was stricken with cancer. Adrian Dantley took over coaching from the All-Star break and the team stumbled into the playoffs dropping from the 2nd seed to the 4th seed. They faced the Jazz, who although the lower seed had the same record and were going into the playoffs much stronger. Melo played a strong series, averaging 30 PPG on 46% and got the series to 6, but the Nuggets had no fight.

His Nuggets career ended the next season. Could you call that a failure? He went to a franchise that had been dead for a decade and without a title contending season in two decades and returned them to the WCF.

His Knicks career has been up and down, as the team as been. Year 1 Amare decided to mess his back up with a trick dunk before game 2 vs Boston against a team that far outmatched them as it was. Year 2 he punched a fire extinguisher, also against a team far outmatched. Once again, losing to a team that would go on to win the Finals, the 4th team to win a ring and 5th to make the Finals. It seems that beating a Melo led team is a good luck charm lol.

This year, I would classify as a slight disappointment. I will say Melo only played an average postseason, when you consider all the facts and the defenses he had to face with what little help he had. But again, he played just average considering what he's capable of. It's tough to beat the best defense in the NBA when your 2nd best and only other scorer decides to shoot 28% in the series, but he was capable of more. Then again Durant just went through the same exact thing on so many levels, just without someone as useless as JR Smith, and he's not losing his centerpiece status anytime soon.

FOXHOUND
05-19-2013, 04:00 AM
The reason I said it's almost an impossible question to answer is because of Dirk Nowitzki. Dirk had many great seasons, and many nice playoff runs throughout his career. He also had some bad upsets and it appeared that his run as a centerpiece was over. Then, out of nowhere, boom Dirk and a bunch of role players storm through the west and beat one of the most stacked teams of all time.

Chris Paul is swooned over, but he's just 16-24 in the playoffs (2 games better than Melo through the same 6 playoff years), has only won in the first round once legitimately considering the bench won the Clippers game 7 last year, had a disappointing postseason this year when the Clippers were supposed to contend and is just 2-8 in his brief 2nd round career.

What makes Chris Paul more of a centerpiece than Carmelo Anthony? Fantasy basketball stats?

NYK|NYY
05-19-2013, 04:06 AM
The reason I said it's almost an impossible question to answer is because of Dirk Nowitzki. Dirk had many great seasons, and many nice playoff runs throughout his career. He also had some bad upsets and it appeared that his run as a centerpiece was over. Then, out of nowhere, boom Dirk and a bunch of role players storm through the west and beat one of the most stacked teams of all time.

Chris Paul is swooned over, but he's just 16-24 in the playoffs (2 games better than Melo through the same 6 playoff years), has only won in the first round once legitimately considering the bench won the Clippers game 7 last year, had a disappointing postseason this year when the Clippers were supposed to contend and is just 2-8 in his brief 2nd round career.

What makes Chris Paul more of a centerpiece than Carmelo Anthony? Fantasy basketball stats?

Pretty much the best examples you can bring to the table in terms of the argument imo.

sammyvine
05-19-2013, 04:38 AM
chris paul isnt a superstar

TheNumber37
05-19-2013, 04:45 AM
if LeBron had this Knick Roster, he might not have been able to get past the pacers.

setman2000
05-19-2013, 05:06 AM
If Melo's your best player, you're not a championship team!

Trueblue2
05-19-2013, 05:42 AM
He's a legit first option on offense for a contender. He's clutch and can score with the best of them, plus his defense has drastically improved over the last couple of seasons. I see no reason a contender can't be built around Melo carrying the scoring load.

That being said he's not good enough to be the only centerpiece on a contender. He needs other good players around him that compliment him and mask his weaknesses in order to actually win a chip (who doesn't). Give him a pass oriented PG that can run the offense and get the rest of the team involved and a few solid role players and he'd be an excellent centerpiece for a contender. If he somehow ended up on a team with CP3 or Rondo they would add up to something greater than their parts. Letting a legit facilitator run the offense and not having Melo ISO all the time would keep his team mates involved and make them less likely to mentally check out of games and go on cold streaks.

It also wouldn't hurt to have a legitimate 2nd scoring option to take some of the scoring load off of him and keep the defense from focusing in on him and ignoring the rest of the team. Yea he's an elite scorer, but nobody can win a ship being the only consistent scoring option on his team. Even Durant needs Westbrook to help carry the load. It doesn't need to be an elite scorer either, put him with a 15-20ppg player that has a game that mesh's well with Melo's and the defense can no longer consistently throw doubles at him. Melo can still take his 20 shots per game, but having another scorer and a pass first primary ball handler will make those 20 shots better looks.

So yes Melo can be a centerpiece on a serious contender, he just can't be the only player on his team capable of consistently playing at a high level.

Goose17
05-19-2013, 05:46 AM
I've always said he isn't at that level.

They either need to surround him with much better role players, or sacrifice whatever depth they have in exchange for a second guy, even someone like Aldridge would fit the bill, but they would be better with a guard imo.

Melo can't do this alone, and Knicks supposed next best option is who exactly? JR?

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 07:07 AM
No, and Dirk at his best wipes out Carmelo.

PhillyFaninLA
05-19-2013, 07:44 AM
I have said multiple times on this site that you don't win titles with guys like Melo....Melo is Randy Moss or Terrell Owens and so is Amare and I suspect Westbrook (OKC Westbrook) is the same way.

Elite all star, hall of fame, or border line hall of fame players that are offensive minded and to selfish to do the little things to a make a team better ultimately don't win titles. You can make the finals but you don't win.

I know the backlash I will get from this because it won't be the first time but its why I have said in the past and am responding with it again in this topic.

JasonJohnHorn
05-19-2013, 07:58 AM
Of course, but that means nothing. The Detroit Pistons won with Ben Wallace as their corner piece. It's just a matter of what pieces you put around a player. you get a good point guard and some strong defenders and Melo can take a team to a championship. Say Memphis had traded Rudy Gay for Melo instead of Prince, Memphis would be favorites to win the title.

You can take any All-Star level player in this league and build a championship around them as your best player so long as you have the right pieces, right coaching and right match-ups in the playoffs.

But that said, there are obviously better options to build around than Melo. It's not a question of: Could Melo win a ring as the best player on the team? but rather: How many guys would it be easier to build a contender around?

Goose17
05-19-2013, 08:08 AM
I have said multiple times on this site that you don't win titles with guys like Melo....Melo is Randy Moss or Terrell Owens and so is Amare and I suspect Westbrook (OKC Westbrook) is the same way.

Elite all star, hall of fame, or border line hall of fame players that are offensive minded and to selfish to do the little things to a make a team better ultimately don't win titles. You can make the finals but you don't win.

I know the backlash I will get from this because it won't be the first time but its why I have said in the past and am responding with it again in this topic.

I agree with what you're saying in general but I wouldn't have put Westbrook in that group, there seems to be a misconception that he's a selfish player and doesn't really help his team outside of scoring which is a load of horse ****.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 08:30 AM
Absolutely not. He is another Allen Iverson.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 08:31 AM
Of course, but that means nothing. The Detroit Pistons won with Ben Wallace as their corner piece. It's just a matter of what pieces you put around a player. you get a good point guard and some strong defenders and Melo can take a team to a championship. Say Memphis had traded Rudy Gay for Melo instead of Prince, Memphis would be favorites to win the title.

You can take any All-Star level player in this league and build a championship around them as your best player so long as you have the right pieces, right coaching and right match-ups in the playoffs.

But that said, there are obviously better options to build around than Melo. It's not a question of: Could Melo win a ring as the best player on the team? but rather: How many guys would it be easier to build a contender around?
Not true. Ben Wallace was the leader of that team but he definitely was NOT their corner piece or best player. That was Rasheed Wallace at the time and it didn't hurt that all 5 of their starters were allstars either.

jericho
05-19-2013, 08:34 AM
Of course, but that means nothing. The Detroit Pistons won with Ben Wallace as their corner piece. It's just a matter of what pieces you put around a player. you get a good point guard and some strong defenders and Melo can take a team to a championship. Say Memphis had traded Rudy Gay for Melo instead of Prince, Memphis would be favorites to win the title.

You can take any All-Star level player in this league and build a championship around them as your best player so long as you have the right pieces, right coaching and right match-ups in the playoffs.

But that said, there are obviously better options to build around than Melo. It's not a question of: Could Melo win a ring as the best player on the team? but rather: How many guys would it be easier to build a contender around?

As much as i hate Melo i kinda have to agree with this. But there is 1 thing that Melo needs to learn before winning it all and thats to play team ball. Taking the kind of shots he takes and not passing the ball when somebody else is wideopen aint helping his chances to get it done. He also needs a strong coach that doesnt let him do whatever he wants to do. I do agree with you him on that memphis squad would be scary as hell. As for this knicks team as currently constructed it will never win it all. Its not just Melo but Jr and Stat(that never plays) any team with those 3 as there best players aint going nowhere. Btw i love my knicks but im just being honest.

jericho
05-19-2013, 08:43 AM
The Knicks are Carmelo plus a bunch of spot up shooters and a mentally deranged JR Smith. They dont have anyone else who can consistently create their own shots and literally no-one who can score in the post when Stoudemire isn't healthy. I think with a better supporting cast he could be a legit center piece on a true contender. CP3, Durant, Harden etc. have all made it pretty clear in these playoffs that nobody (besides maybe Lebron) is good enough to win on their own.

Did Lebron won it all by himself??


if LeBron had this Knick Roster, he might not have been able to get past the pacers.

And now to contradict myself lol. If lebron had this roster he would probably take it to the conference finals or maybe even to the finals but wouldnt win it all still a better record than what Melo would have

BALLER R
05-19-2013, 08:47 AM
Absolutely not. He is another Allen Iverson.

How so?

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 08:53 AM
How so?

He is a black hole on offense. He is a terrible leader. You have to hide him on defense.

MELO 15
05-19-2013, 09:10 AM
He is a black hole on offense. He is a terrible leader. You have to hide him on defense.

U don't know basketball. Having joe jhonson on your sig.

Melo needs help in the worse way and cant do it all by himself.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 09:18 AM
U don't know basketball. Having joe jhonson on your sig.

Melo needs help in the worse way and cant do it all by himself.

Yea they surrounded him with a bunch of scrubs.;)

MELO 15
05-19-2013, 09:21 AM
He is a black hole on offense. He is a terrible leader. You have to hide him on defense.

And if u have been watching u would know that Melo is a willing passer who hit the wide open JR, kidd, and even stat in the paint and they couldn't find the basket. The man can't do it all by himself. Chandler is as soft as ice cream and doesn't know how to box out to get a rebound and fouls on an attempt to block shots instead of taking a page out of Hibbert and jump straight up. If im the knicks, id talk to the lakers about a sign and trade for dwight and send the lakers Chandler and novak plus a future first round pick. Dont sign JR and bring back nate. And some how find a team that is willing to take amare " I know im asking for to much there " but hey u never know. Get rid of kidd and camby and look to build from there. I know cp3 wants to be a knick butbits just a matter of finding out how we can make it work.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 09:25 AM
And if u have been watching u would know that Melo is a willing passer who hit the wide open JR, kidd, and even stat in the paint and they couldn't find the basket. The man can't do it all by himself. Chandler is as soft as ice cream and doesn't know how to box out to get a rebound and fouls on an attempt to block shots instead of taking a page out of Hibbert and jump straight up. If im the knicks, id talk to the lakers about a sign and trade for dwight and send the lakers Chandler and novak plus a future first round pick. Dont sign JR and bring back nate. And some how find a team that is willing to take amare " I know im asking for to much there " but hey u never know. Get rid of kidd and camby and look to build from there. I know cp3 wants to be a knick butbits just a matter of finding out how we can make it work.


Melo waits for 10 seconds left on the shot clock to make a pass. Raymond Felton was awful this series too. Yea you guys need CP3 in the worst way.

oak2455
05-19-2013, 09:25 AM
Joey :laugh:

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 09:27 AM
Joey :laugh:

JR:drunk:

oak2455
05-19-2013, 09:29 AM
Melo waits for 10 seconds left on the shot clock to make a pass. Raymond Felton was awful this series too. Yea you guys need CP3 in the worst way.

They need alot more agreed..Felton was blah, Chandler was DMFs , Kidd was invisable , and Mike Woodson blew small monkey dick.... Ohhhh and JRs brother impersonated him, that wasn't JR that was Chris Smith....

MELO 15
05-19-2013, 09:33 AM
Melo waits for 10 seconds left on the shot clock to make a pass. Raymond Felton was awful this series too. Yea you guys need CP3 in the worst way.

U obviously have not watched the knicks play. I do agree with u on that we do need another point guard in cp3 and have Felton come off the bench.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 09:35 AM
They need alot more agreed..Felton was blah, Chandler was DMFs , Kidd was invisable , and Mike Woodson blew small monkey dick.... Ohhhh and JRs brother impersonated him, that wasn't JR that was Chris Smith....

I dont understand Why if the Knicks were going to play this 3 point shoot out style of basketball what was the purpose of firing Mike D'Antoni? Knicks need to develop a half court style that wins in the playoffs. They need a big man who they run their offense through.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 09:36 AM
U obviously have not watched the knicks play. I do agree with u on that we do need another point guard in cp3 and have Felton come off the bench.

I think Pablo is underrated for you guys. His confidence is growing and overall a much better shooter and defender than Felton who is absolutely a complete waste when the Pick and Roll isn't working.

MELO 15
05-19-2013, 09:37 AM
I dont understand Why if the Knicks were going to play this 3 point shoot out style of basketball what was the purpose of firing Mike D'Antoni? Knicks need to develop a half court style that wins in the playoffs. They need a big man who they run their offense through.

Can we say Dwight?

MELO 15
05-19-2013, 09:41 AM
I think Pablo is underrated for you guys. His confidence is growing and overall a much better shooter and defender than Felton who is absolutely a complete waste when the Pick and Roll isn't working.
This is one of the signings I if I'm the knicks I would make do over again, I love Pablo. He is a true professional and I hope we can resign him. Copeland is another player I felt should have got more burn,want him back to.

Sandman
05-19-2013, 09:44 AM
His poor shooting performance is due to the lack of offense the Knicks have up against one of the better defensive teams in the NBA.

Also, he has a lot of success at the PF against 90% of the teams in the NBA, but probably didn't belong there against the Pacers.

As far as him being the center piece of a title team, I'd say the team went pretty far for the players it had. If the Knicks were able to take STAT's 25m and spend it on 1-3 other players he could definitely be on a better title contender.

The Knicks are nowhere close to their ceiling and won't be until STAT's two healthy months come in April-May or until he's off the roster. #2 seed in the salary cap era with 25m that doesn't play -- yeah there's a lot of room for improvement and you're hating if you think its impossible.

SportsFanatic10
05-19-2013, 09:49 AM
he's a legit 1st scoring option on offense. noone can question his elite scoring ability, it's after all what makes him a superstar since other areas of his game are lacking, and that is where it gets tricky. he doesn't create shots for teammates with his passing, doesn't defend at a high level, and quite honestly doesn't seem to be a great leader. i honestly don't think he'll ever win a ring as the best player on his team.

oak2455
05-19-2013, 09:55 AM
Can we say Dwight?

Start a thread should go well

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 10:08 AM
Nobody can do it alone, it looked like JR could help him at one point but he reverted back to the JR that doesn't drive and just shoots contested 20 footers.

Take away WB and look what happened to Durant, and Durant still at least had 2 other reliable scorers in Ibaka & Martin. If WB misses that entire series against HOU, OKC could have very easily lost in the 1st round.

CP3 had Blake and still lost.

LBJ couldn't win until he teamed up with Wade & Bosh.

It takes a rare set of circumstances to win alone, Melo has never really played with another star outside of 1 year with Iverson

Jarvo
05-19-2013, 10:14 AM
I'll have him as my #2 option not first, I don't know why people get butthurt when you say that anout him.

Jarvo
05-19-2013, 10:15 AM
Nobody can do it alone, it looked like JR could help him at one point but he reverted back to the JR that doesn't drive and just shoots contested 20 footers.

Take away WB and look what happened to Durant, and Durant still at least had 2 other reliable scorers in Ibaka & Martin. If WB misses that entire series against HOU, OKC could have very easily lost in the 1st round.

CP3 had Blake and still lost.

LBJ couldn't win until he teamed up with Wade & Bosh.

It takes a rare set of circumstances to win alone, Melo has never really played with another star outside of 1 year with Iverson


Blake isnt even that good though.

Hustla23
05-19-2013, 10:17 AM
Durant has a far better team around him even without Westbrook and his ridiculous performance couldn't get him past the second round.

Didn't see Chris Paul get out of the first round either.

Melo is obviously not as good as those guys but he is a legitimate #1 option on a championship team. Key word: TEAM. This sorry *** Knicks team sucked balls in the playoffs.

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 10:19 AM
Blake isnt even that good though.

and yet he's still far better than anyone Melo has.

I'd trade not just anyone, but ANY TWO players on NY outside of Melo for Blake in a heartbeat.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Blake Griffin could barely play thru his injury. It's the only reason LAC didn't beat the Grizzlies. Had nothing to do with Paul who played out of his mind.

JordansBulls
05-19-2013, 10:28 AM
If Melo's your best player, you're not a championship team!

How so?

JesusNYY_Savior
05-19-2013, 10:28 AM
Blake Griffin could barely play thru his injury. It's the only reason LAC didn't beat the Grizzlies. Had nothing to do with Paul who played out of his mind.

they were losing that series even with a healthy griffin

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 10:31 AM
put Melo on CHI, and I mean without Rose, and that team could have beaten MIA

Noah
Boozer
Melo
Butler
Hinrich

that's the kind of team Melo needs around him, I don't think he needs another "superstar"... just some good solid players that can score and defend. maybe an efficient 17ppg player alongside him.

Ironically I think Gallo would have been a great fit alongside Melo... a big SF that can shoot, spread the floor, get to the FT line, defend, and stay out of his way down low.

netsgiantsyanks
05-19-2013, 10:36 AM
if LeBron had this Knick Roster, he might not have been able to get past the pacers.

wrong. the roster he had in 06-07 was much ******** than the knicks roster.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 10:45 AM
they were losing that series even with a healthy griffin

False. They were up 2-0 with a healthy Griffin.

jchase3
05-19-2013, 10:46 AM
I guess I could ask if Durant is a legitimate center piece to a championship team then, right?

MrfadeawayJB
05-19-2013, 11:01 AM
He is, when and if he makes a consistent effort on defense. Best player needs to be a teams top defender IMO.

MrfadeawayJB
05-19-2013, 11:02 AM
I guess I could ask if Durant is a legitimate center piece to a championship team then, right?

Durant is younger and made it to the finals your statement is invalid

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 11:04 AM
Durant is younger and made it to the finals your statement is invalid

How is his statement invalid? Durant made it to the finals with Harden, WB & Ibaka and still lost in 5 to MIA. He had a freaking all star team around him.

Melo took MIA to 5 games the same year with freaking Bibby, Fields, JR & a sick Chandler.

PhillyFaninLA
05-19-2013, 11:05 AM
I guess I could ask if Durant is a legitimate center piece to a championship team then, right?

I'm fast, if I got on a track with Usain Bolt he would smoke me. I'm faster than most though but no where near that level.

Melo is a really nice player on offense but Durant is a truly special player, a potential all timer....your not comparing apples to apples here.

Melo is a offensive weapon now and an all star, Durant is someone in 20 years we might still be talking about.

Kenny
05-19-2013, 11:06 AM
Durant is younger and made it to the finals your statement is invalid

LMAO with Westbrook, Harde and Ibaka.

Melo's 2nd best player is Jr ****en Smith.

How about taking the 20plus million dollar man Amare off the team and give him Chris Paul and see how good the Knicks would of been.

Lebron got Wade and Bosh. Durant had Westbrook Harden Ibaka. Melo got Jr Smith and Tyson who was a shell of himself.


But Melo is a loser. Rightttttt

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 11:08 AM
How is his statement invalid? Durant made it to the finals with Harden, WB & Ibaka and still lost in 5 to MIA. He had a freaking all star team around him.

Melo took MIA to 5 games the same year with freaking Bibby, Fields, JR & a sick Chandler.

lol thats ridiculous. OKC took game 1 of that series and should of won games 2 and 5 if it wasn't for bone headed inexperience. The Knicks got smoked by Miami. It wasn't competitive. Miami GAVE them a game out of pity.

MrfadeawayJB
05-19-2013, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=MrfadeawayJB;26255736]Durant is younger and made it to the finals your statement is invalid

How is his statement invalid? Durant made it to the finals with Harden, WB & Ibaka and still lost in 5 to MIA. He had a freaking all star team around him.

Melo took MIA to 5 games the same year with freaking Bibby, Fields, JR & a sick Chandler.[/QUOTE

Melo had some good teams with him in Denver so don't feed me that. He has failed to deliver multiple times

PhillyFaninLA
05-19-2013, 11:08 AM
How is his statement invalid? Durant made it to the finals with Harden, WB & Ibaka and still lost in 5 to MIA. He had a freaking all star team around him.

Melo took MIA to 5 games the same year with freaking Bibby, Fields, JR & a sick Chandler.

In the first round not the finals (or in this case the conference finals)...each round the teams that win the round play a little better...you didn't play the same Heat team as the Thunder, but you hold onto that and think its comparable if it helps you.

BigBlueCrew
05-19-2013, 11:09 AM
lol thats ridiculous. OKC took game 1 of that series and should of won games 2 and 5 if it wasn't for bone headed inexperience. The Knicks got smoked by Miami. It wasn't competitive. Miami GAVE them a game out of pity.

Why do you even talk :facepalm:

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 11:10 AM
Why do you even talk :facepalm:

It's called a Gentleman's Sweep. Look it up. Knicks then proceeded to drop from Confetti from the rafters like they won game 7 of the NBA finals. True Story.

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 11:10 AM
[QUOTE=nycericanguy;26255741]

How is his statement invalid? Durant made it to the finals with Harden, WB & Ibaka and still lost in 5 to MIA. He had a freaking all star team around him.

Melo took MIA to 5 games the same year with freaking Bibby, Fields, JR & a sick Chandler.[/QUOTE

Melo had some good teams with him in Denver so don't feed me that. He has failed to deliver multiple times

Feed you what? Melo has never played with a Harden or a WB type player. He had 1 year with Iverson.

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 11:11 AM
In the first round not the finals (or in this case the conference finals)...each round the teams that win the round play a little better...you didn't play the same Heat team as the Thunder, but you hold onto that and think its comparable if it helps you.

lol wtf? what kind of statement is that?

Kenny
05-19-2013, 11:11 AM
I dont understand Why if the Knicks were going to play this 3 point shoot out style of basketball what was the purpose of firing Mike D'Antoni? Knicks need to develop a half court style that wins in the playoffs. They need a big man who they run their offense through.

The Knicks didn't plan on playing this way. Mike Woodson lucked into a lot of his decisions. The Amare injury forced him to play Melo at the 4 reluctantly. He was forced to play Pablo more because of injury.

He didn't want to play the two point guard lineups but was forced to.

BigBlueCrew
05-19-2013, 11:12 AM
It's called a Gentleman's Sweep. Look it up. Knicks then proceeded to drop from Confetti from the rafters like they won game 7 of the NBA finals. True Story.

yes I know, I watched. much like your ridiculous broookkkkllynnn pipped in chant :confused:

I dont know why Nets fans refer to that ONE moment so much. As opposed to that stupid made up chant the entire season.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 11:13 AM
Feed you what? Melo has never played with a Harden or a WB type player. He had 1 year with Iverson.

He played with a prime Chauncy Billups, a prime Marcus Camby, a prime Nene and a prime K-Mart. All 4 of which were allstars and 1 Finals MVP.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 11:16 AM
The Knicks didn't plan on playing this way. Mike Woodson lucked into a lot of his decisions. The Amare injury forced him to play Melo at the 4 reluctantly. He was forced to play Pablo more because of injury.

He didn't want to play the two point guard lineups but was forced to.

but then he was criticized for not playing more small ball against Indiana until game 5.

felixng2012
05-19-2013, 11:19 AM
No, and Dirk at his best wipes out Carmelo.
I would take a washed up Dirk over Melo and his career 41 FG% in the playoffs and ridiculous usage rate.

Kenny
05-19-2013, 11:19 AM
but then he was criticized for not playing more small ball against Indiana until game 5.

exactly my point. Everyone was availale for the playoffs so he went back to his vets and more traditional lineups and didn't play copeland or Pablo.

Copeland would only play when guys weren't healthy and he produced almot every single time.

MrfadeawayJB
05-19-2013, 11:26 AM
In the first round not the finals (or in this case the conference finals)...each round the teams that win the round play a little better...you didn't play the same Heat team as the Thunder, but you hold onto that and think its comparable if it helps you.

lol wtf? what kind of statement is that?

It's arguable that Denver's team melo had was as good as durants team that went to the finals.

Okc rotation:
WB
Thabo
Durant
Serge
Perk

Bench
Collison
Harden
Fisher
Maynor

Prime durant
Near prime WB
6th man and limited Harden



Nuggets 2008

Billups
Dahntay jones
Melo
Martin
Nene

Bench
Jr smith
Birdman
Kleiza
Petro
Bulkman

Near prime Melo
Tapering off prime Billups/ Martin
Prime nene and Birdman
6th man near prime jr smith


Not too different in talent IMO and okc made the finals that year

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-19-2013, 11:38 AM
Durant has a far better team around him even without Westbrook and his ridiculous performance couldn't get him past the second round.

Didn't see Chris Paul get out of the first round either.

Melo is obviously not as good as those guys but he is a legitimate #1 option on a championship team. Key word: TEAM. This sorry *** Knicks team sucked balls in the playoffs.

The difference between Durant/Paul and Carmelo in these playoffs is that they still played pretty great on a consistent basis. Carmelo was pretty inconsistent at the one thing he was great at this season in the playoffs. I just don't think his style of play will allow you to get to the Finals. Of course his help wasn't the greatest, but Carmelo was pretty inefficient and if he's your number one option and he's playing that way, you're simply not going to win.

nycericanguy
05-19-2013, 11:44 AM
The difference between Durant/Paul and Carmelo in these playoffs is that they still played pretty great on a consistent basis. Carmelo was pretty inconsistent at the one thing he was great at this season in the playoffs. I just don't think his style of play will allow you to get to the Finals. Of course his help wasn't the greatest, but Carmelo was pretty inefficient and if he's your number one option and he's playing that way, you're simply not going to win.

but those 2 things tend to go hand in hand...

It's no coincidence that guys like Allen, Pierce, Wade, LBJ, Bosh...etc... all became more efficient once they got help.

And it's no coincidence that Durant shot 42% without WB against MEM.

Kenny
05-19-2013, 11:45 AM
Anybody who thinks that Denver team was beter then having 3 top 10 players on it in OKC needs their heads examined.

And for the other poster. Get Durants numbers without Westbrook. His efficiency drops. He had one game where he was crazy efficient. He shot 36 percent last three games.

Hustla23
05-19-2013, 11:50 AM
The difference between Durant/Paul and Carmelo in these playoffs is that they still played pretty great on a consistent basis. Carmelo was pretty inconsistent at the one thing he was great at this season in the playoffs. I just don't think his style of play will allow you to get to the Finals. Of course his help wasn't the greatest, but Carmelo was pretty inefficient and if he's your number one option and he's playing that way, you're simply not going to win.

I agree. But in the playoffs, if nobody else on your team is doing much of anything, it's easy to just key in on one guy and shut him down, namely Melo.

If you watched this series, the Pacers sent a soft double almost every time Melo got the ball. He couldn't really kick it out because his options were either J.R. Smith or Jason Kidd. If Copeland played more it might have helped, but it's too late for that now.

On the flip side, George Hill, Paul George, Augustin and Stephenson were raining down threes which allowed West and Hibbert to dominate whoever they had in single coverage. If they weren't hitting their shots, Hibbert and West's production falls in half.

waveycrockett
05-19-2013, 11:50 AM
Anybody who thinks that Denver team was beter then having 3 top 10 players on it in OKC needs their heads examined.

And for the other poster. Get Durants numbers without Westbrook. His efficiency drops. He had one game where he was crazy efficient. He shot 36 percent last three games.

So Melo can't be judged until he plays with another top-10 player?

b@llhog24
05-19-2013, 04:10 PM
Nobody can do it alone, it looked like JR could help him at one point but he reverted back to the JR that doesn't drive and just shoots contested 20 footers.

Take away WB and look what happened to Durant, and Durant still at least had 2 other reliable scorers in Ibaka & Martin. If WB misses that entire series against HOU, OKC could have very easily lost in the 1st round.

CP3 had Blake and still lost.

LBJ couldn't win until he teamed up with Wade & Bosh.

It takes a rare set of circumstances to win alone, Melo has never really played with another star outside of 1 year with Iverson

Except Cp3 played out of his freaking mind.


put Melo on CHI, and I mean without Rose, and that team could have beaten MIA

Noah
Boozer
Melo
Butler
Hinrich

that's the kind of team Melo needs around him, I don't think he needs another "superstar"... just some good solid players that can score and defend. maybe an efficient 17ppg player alongside him.

Ironically I think Gallo would have been a great fit alongside Melo... a big SF that can shoot, spread the floor, get to the FT line, defend, and stay out of his way down low.

Who's that? (On the Bulls)

roshan3ai
05-19-2013, 04:17 PM
The difference between Durant/Paul and Carmelo in these playoffs is that they still played pretty great on a consistent basis. Carmelo was pretty inconsistent at the one thing he was great at this season in the playoffs. I just don't think his style of play will allow you to get to the Finals. Of course his help wasn't the greatest, but Carmelo was pretty inefficient and if he's your number one option and he's playing that way, you're simply not going to win.

Take those stats in context of the game. It's not like he was shooting 40% when the Pacers and Knicks were shooting 50% as teams. These were low-scoring, defensive games. I had no problem with Melo this series.

Not having a legitimate alternate option was detrimental to this team. JR shot like 25% this series. Chandler also was poor on both ends. I've been very hard on Melo, but this isn't the season to point to.

D-Leethal
05-19-2013, 04:44 PM
So Melo can't be judged until he plays with another top-10 player?

He can be judged but judgement should be weighed by comparing him to guys in similar scenario's, not two guys who are better than him playing on all star teams.

dnl123
05-19-2013, 04:45 PM
Take those stats in context of the game. It's not like he was shooting 40% when the Pacers and Knicks were shooting 50% as teams. These were low-scoring, defensive games. I had no problem with Melo this series.

Not having a legitimate alternate option was detrimental to this team. JR shot like 25% this series. Chandler also was poor on both ends. I've been very hard on Melo, but this isn't the season to point to.

I agree, and I think Melo is a great scorer, but he's never going to make it far unless he gets together with at least one other dominant player. Maybe that was the intention with him and Amare, but they don't work well together.

The big problem I have with Melo is that he isn't a great teammate. He dominates the ball and doesn't get many assists, that's a huge issue. As of now if his shot is off his team will lose, and it will be that way until he develops a better passing game, if he ever does. Oh, and he's not a great defender either.

And anyone that is comparing Melo to James or Durant should be ashamed of themselves. They're both out of his league until he becomes a more consistant scorer (shooting around 50%fg ) that involves his teammates (at least 3-4 apg with the volume of touches he has) and plays superior defense.

D-Leethal
05-19-2013, 04:45 PM
Different position but I think Derrick Rose a couple years ago was the closest comparison to what Melo deals with on a nightly basis as far as defensive attention and lack of legitimate sidekick.

Chronz
05-19-2013, 06:47 PM
Is it really fair to hold his playoff success from those early years over his head when that team was just lucky to be there?
Lucky? They added alot of talent outside of Melo. The team didn't necessarily rely on him any more than the other players on the squad, in fact he played like 33MPG and the team consistently played at a +.500 level in the minutes he rested.


I mean his rookie season he draws Minnesota at their best under KG, 58-24 and took the Shaq-Kobe Lakers to 6 despite massive injuries. As if that wasn't a rough enough start his second season he draws San Antonio in a year they went on to win the Finals, an unfortunate trend in his career. Not just that but those first two years he was still struggling with consistency as a young player in an impossibly tough conference. The fact that they didn't get swept in either of those series is impressive to me. That's a very rough 2-8 start to a playoff career.
Agreed, there is no shame in playoff struggles as a teen, its a very minor critique.


His third year was his first strong season, so I think from that point on it's fair to start judging him harshly. This was also the year he had the worst playoff series in his career, IMO. He was on a lower seeded team, but they won just three less games. This was a chance for him to shine and take his team to a playoff series win, or at least a tough series. He shot 33% for the series and they lost in 5. That was one ugly series, although if it's any consolation to him those Clippers went on to take MVP Nash's Suns to game 7 in the next round. Still the best Clipper team in their franchises history lol.
Not our best breh, hope that was a joke, we were a pretty flawed team. And those Suns were taken to 7 by the .500 Lakers, they werent exactly a powerhouse either, lack of size and all. Melo was overwhelmed, its one thing to struggle, but he went beyond any reasonable level IMO so I agree with it being his worst. I still remember Ross getting in his head and how quickly Melo's aggression turned against him.


Next year he improved, and had his first strong playoff series. He averaged 26.8 PPG and 8.6 REB on a .480/.500/.795 shooting line. Impressive stuff considering the opponent...
Agreed, his first impressive playoff performance. Whenever a team is overmatched, someone on the team is going to get exposed, he didn't let it be him. Iverson was non-existent this series.


Next year he had more bad luck, but also the second worst playoff series of his career IMO. He ended up shooting 36%, although that's a bit misleading since it was mainly one awful shooting game of 5-22 which anchored down the total %. But once again, Carmelo was matched up against a team that would win the west, only this time it was the Los Angeles Lakers. He did play poorly though, and they did get swept.
In reverse fashion, Iverson did better while Melo struggled this year, IIRC Ariza wasn't even healthy at this point so it was mostly Walton and Vladrad taking him on. Odom and Pau were at their peak as defensive helpers at this point, so its hard to give him too much grief, but again, the recurring theme for him is that hes prone to succumbing to the pressure of the defense. Not my kind of star player.


4-20. Five years, three teams that won the west with top 10 players of all time in their prime, two of them winning the Finals, another year just happy to be there as a rookie against another all timer in his peak in KG with his strongest team and one flat out ugly series. Already at this point I would say it's fair to give him a break on this overall team record.
I never expected him to win, but his inconsistencies tell their own tale. A flawed cornerstone who needs perfection around him in order to thrive with any sort of star production. Even then its nothing to brag about thus far.


This is the year where it turned around, albeit briefly. He finally had a strong team, and in turn came through as the 2nd seed in the west. He steamrolled through the Chris Paul led Hornets, including the biggest playoff win in NBA history, 4-1. He steamrolled the Dirk Nowitzki led Mavericks, 4-1. Then came the 1 seed Lakers. Coming in on a hot streak he was scorching in games 1 and 2, getting the split to give them Nuggets a chance and ending his 30+ point streak at 5, tying Jordan's playoff record, with an average of 35 PPG on 50%. Then it all fell apart. He lost his shot, although he got to the line a lot, and had 4 rough shooting games. The Nuggets got out one more win but ultimately lost in 6 to yet another team that went on to win the NBA Finals.
Dirk and CP3 led some pretty awful teams at the time. You dont lose that badly by having a strong team.


That bumped up his total playoff record to 14-26, a 12-18 mark since his third season and also a 4-16 mark against the Lakers/Spurs in years that they win the west/Finals. So overall he was 10-10 when he didn't have to play legendary teams in years they won the Finals or appeared in it. I think that fits a theme, a combination of bad luck and just a couple of rough series. He was only the higher seed twice, and he won those two series 4-1 a piece.
Not very impressed by his performances given those circumstances, different standards really.


The next year was more unfortunate bad luck for him. The Nuggets were thriving and looking forward to another deep run with the playoff core that got them two wins from the Finals, but tragedy struck and George Karl was stricken with cancer. Adrian Dantley took over coaching from the All-Star break and the team stumbled into the playoffs dropping from the 2nd seed to the 4th seed. They faced the Jazz, who although the lower seed had the same record and were going into the playoffs much stronger. Melo played a strong series, averaging 30 PPG on 46% and got the series to 6, but the Nuggets had no fight.
Melo did his part but Utah had just lost AK-47 + Okur, they werent exactly up to speed either.


His Nuggets career ended the next season. Could you call that a failure? He went to a franchise that had been dead for a decade and without a title contending season in two decades and returned them to the WCF.

His Knicks career has been up and down, as the team as been. Year 1 Amare decided to mess his back up with a trick dunk before game 2 vs Boston against a team that far outmatched them as it was. Year 2 he punched a fire extinguisher, also against a team far outmatched. Once again, losing to a team that would go on to win the Finals, the 4th team to win a ring and 5th to make the Finals. It seems that beating a Melo led team is a good luck charm lol.

This year, I would classify as a slight disappointment. I will say Melo only played an average postseason, when you consider all the facts and the defenses he had to face with what little help he had. But again, he played just average considering what he's capable of. It's tough to beat the best defense in the NBA when your 2nd best and only other scorer decides to shoot 28% in the series, but he was capable of more. Then again Durant just went through the same exact thing on so many levels, just without someone as useless as JR Smith, and he's not losing his centerpiece status anytime soon.
Not a failure, thats a tough word. He is what he is, still someone who makes teams better so I dont see how it can be said he failed. He certainly didn't overachieve is what people should remember most about his playoff career thus far. Hes not the kind of guy whos likely to face the best defense in the league and just completely take over a series to at least push it to the brink or something, but he can definitely get hot and will a superior team to victory.Which in itself is a star trait, lesser main options have won championships without having that quality.

Chronz
05-19-2013, 06:48 PM
they were losing that series even with a healthy griffin

Maybe, but our offense wasn't the reason and CP3 most definitely wasn't the reason, it was because our bigs got crushed. Blake+DJ went ghost for separate reasons.

amos1er
05-19-2013, 06:51 PM
I used to think so, but I would have to say no now. There are too many better options out there.

girlsluvBeyonce
05-19-2013, 09:28 PM
if carmelo isn't then who is ?

SoFreshNsoClean
05-19-2013, 09:31 PM
if carmelo isn't then who is ?

this

Shkelqim
05-19-2013, 10:04 PM
I don't think so, he seems to force his shots. When he does get in trouble it seems he leans towards turning it over.. Also, the key to stopping Melo is getting to his head, i think mentally he is weak, it seems he takes everything personal as he has to do it or no else will. I think he needs to trust his team a lot more and woodson seems to be a very defensive minded coach as their offensive sets are non existent, its basically Melo fade away or a 3 point shot. He doesn't stress the need to have a balanced attack, inside out game. I was reading an Article stating Amare would like create a stronger front court, i think thats the best idea. Honestly triangle offense would be awesome, Melo Amare and Chandler. Also, Felton is a back up, i know his stats are decent but i just don't see him as the organizer at the Point, he seems like an energy bull dog, they need a conventional point guard, Calderon would fit nicely. This would create a great balance within the roster.

jam
05-19-2013, 11:48 PM
There isn't a single player who can carry a team to a title on his own. Lebron is as close as you'll get, and even he thought he couldn't win a title on his own.

It's just an unrealistic expectation to assume that any one player can carry a team to a championship.

TheLegend
05-20-2013, 12:48 AM
I agree, if melo ur centerpiece then u are NOT winning a ship. He's two selfish of a player. He doesn't take the time to get other players going, this is why he's not on Lebrons level. Lebron would take the time to get others involved. Melo forces it and doesn't take the approach of getting others involved. His assist number should be much higher. I've never seen melo with 10 ast.

salmonleg
05-20-2013, 02:42 AM
Chris Paul shares the ball and actively looks to make his teammates better. Of course he's a better centerpiece than Melo. Melo's got amazing talent but championship b-ball isn't played one-on-one.



Chris Paul is swooned over, but he's just 16-24 in the playoffs (2 games better than Melo through the same 6 playoff years), has only won in the first round once legitimately considering the bench won the Clippers game 7 last year, had a disappointing postseason this year when the Clippers were supposed to contend and is just 2-8 in his brief 2nd round career.

What makes Chris Paul more of a centerpiece than Carmelo Anthony? Fantasy basketball stats?

sammyvine
05-20-2013, 06:56 AM
There isn't a single player who can carry a team to a title on his own. Lebron is as close as you'll get, and even he thought he couldn't win a title on his own.

It's just an unrealistic expectation to assume that any one player can carry a team to a championship.
hows lebron the closest thing...?
its not like he went to endless finals with the cavs and kept coming up short. He went to one finals(lost) and got bounded out by the big celtics 3 and orlando.

Heediot
05-20-2013, 07:43 AM
Too much tunnel vision and self-belief. Needs another stud with consistency to help him. He's clutch and doesn't shrink to pressure so he has that going for him.

BklynKnicks3
05-20-2013, 09:34 AM
lets be real here no player in the nba cant get it done with out a 2nd option. Only guy that did is dirk n he had each role player play there a game n terry basically became one when it was needed. Jr did not. Enough with the damn Melo bashing he played the pacers one on 5 for a whole a half then shump was big time in the 3rd but thats not enough. You can have ur 2nd and 3rd leading scorers go 4 for 23. Jr coiuldnt hit the ocean since game 3 of boston and felton had to 0-8s vs pacers.

ATX
05-20-2013, 10:02 AM
Is Carmelo a legit centerpiece for a Championship team?

Obviously not, or at least not yet. Will have to wait and see what help NY can bring him. Teams win Championships, not individual players. My problem with Melo, is he doesn't seem to make those around him better, and his lack of efficiency as a whole.

Sandman
05-20-2013, 10:27 AM
there is a good conversation to be had about Carmelo Anthony or the Knicks

phrases like "Gentlemen's sweep" are ****ing ridiculous

justinnum1
05-20-2013, 11:09 AM
Nope. He is a good 2nd option. But to selfish and chokes to much to be a first option.

Sandman
05-20-2013, 11:12 AM
Nope. He is a good 2nd option. But to selfish and chokes to much to be a first option.

whatever, all the same **** was said about Lebron. and dirk. and even MJ pre-Scottie.

justinnum1
05-20-2013, 11:20 AM
whatever, all the same **** was said about Lebron. and dirk. and even MJ pre-Scottie.

you're right, and its still being said about melo.

oak2455
05-20-2013, 11:23 AM
Nope. He is a good 2nd option. But to selfish and chokes to much to be a first option.

Are you talking about Lebron before he followed Wade and Bosh ...he was what ??? Not what he is now , stop with you're BS .... Where's Durant now ?

oak2455
05-20-2013, 11:25 AM
Bottom line he needs a 2nd option which there wasn't in this past series

justinnum1
05-20-2013, 11:26 AM
Are you talking about Lebron before he followed Wade and Bosh ...he was what ??? Not what he is now , stop with you're BS .... Where's Durant now ?

I didn't know much about lebron before he came to miami. He chocked in 2011, now he is a champ.

Is there something wrong with the statement, "melo is a choker"?

NYJ - NYY
05-20-2013, 11:47 AM
you're right, and its still being said about melo.


when melo has bosh and wade type talents around him i guess thats when you'll take lebrons dick outchya mouth and realize melo isnt a chocker any longer

justinnum1
05-20-2013, 11:51 AM
when melo has bosh and wade type talents around him i guess thats when you'll take lebrons dick outchya mouth and realize melo isnt a chocker any longer

come on bro. he choked hard in the 4th qtr all series long, turnovers, missed free throws, scored 0 in some games during the 4th. it was bad.

Sandman
05-20-2013, 12:01 PM
come on bro. he choked hard in the 4th qtr all series long, turnovers, missed free throws, scored 0 in some games during the 4th. it was bad.

Did you watch the game?

The Pacers had the bodies to get in his way in the post and the Knicks have 0 for a backup plan. The Knicks beat on most of the league with Melo in the post and that wasn't working vs. West and Hibbert. The same thing happened to the Thunder in the finals. They beat 95% of the league on pure athleticism. The Heat matched it and they had nothing to fall back on.

oak2455
05-20-2013, 12:01 PM
come on bro. he choked hard in the 4th qtr all series long, turnovers, missed free throws, scored 0 in some games during the 4th. it was bad.
Lebron against the celtics says hi... Follow Lebron pre Wade n Bosh

oak2455
05-20-2013, 12:03 PM
when melo has bosh and wade type talents around him i guess thats when you'll take lebrons dick outchya mouthand realize melo isnt a chocker any longer

This could be the problem

justinnum1
05-20-2013, 12:43 PM
Did you watch the game?

The Pacers had the bodies to get in his way in the post and the Knicks have 0 for a backup plan. The Knicks beat on most of the league with Melo in the post and that wasn't working vs. West and Hibbert. The same thing happened to the Thunder in the finals. They beat 95% of the league on pure athleticism. The Heat matched it and they had nothing to fall back on.

so melo didnt choke in the 4th? he didnt miss free throws? he didnt turn it over? he didnt score 0 point in the 4th in 2 games?

Chronz
05-20-2013, 12:46 PM
Feed you what? Melo has never played with a Harden or a WB type player. He had 1 year with Iverson.

Iverson wasn't even the best player hes ever played with, that you named him above all else tells me all I need to know about the way you value supporting casts. He had great teams in Denver, they would have been contenders if they had a true star to lead them, not a Class-B star like Melo was, particularly during his Nugg years.

ColtsSpursTerps
05-20-2013, 12:48 PM
I'd like to see what he could do with a little more talent, but it's clear he's not a class-A Superstar that can carry his team and consistently make everyone else better.

Sandman
05-20-2013, 01:07 PM
so melo didnt choke in the 4th? he didnt miss free throws? he didnt turn it over? he didnt score 0 point in the 4th in 2 games?
Melo shot 87% at the charity stripe (and he didn't miss any in Gm 1,2 or 6, only missed 1 each in gm 4 and 5) vs. the Pacers, UP from his reg season numbers and the same 2.5 turnovers as the reg season. He also shot above 50%, 8-8 from the line and put in 39 points in game 6.

The biggest problem in this series was foul trouble. I don't think he belonged in the post in this series even if Melo's play in the post is what gave him a scoring title and the #2 seed.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 01:08 PM
The reason I said it's almost an impossible question to answer is because of Dirk Nowitzki. Dirk had many great seasons, and many nice playoff runs throughout his career. He also had some bad upsets and it appeared that his run as a centerpiece was over. Then, out of nowhere, boom Dirk and a bunch of role players storm through the west and beat one of the most stacked teams of all time.
I like to think Dirk showed us alot more during his defeats, and how he performed over the course of his playoff career was underrated IMO. He definitely had that bad series vs GS but thats all I can remember.


Chris Paul is swooned over, but he's just 16-24 in the playoffs (2 games better than Melo through the same 6 playoff years), has only won in the first round once legitimately considering the bench won the Clippers game 7 last year, had a disappointing postseason this year when the Clippers were supposed to contend and is just 2-8 in his brief 2nd round career.
What makes Chris Paul more of a centerpiece than Carmelo Anthony? Fantasy basketball stats?

So its his team that got him past the first round last year but this year (with his teammates injured/choking) its his fault? Why the inconsistencies? Is there a reason why we are only looking at G7 of a 7 game series?
The truth is, CP3 played through injury last year, played excellent vs the Grizz and our team advanced beyond a SUPERIOR one in large part because of him. That season alone he accomplished something Melo has yet to do, will an inferior team past a more talented one.

So in terms of contextualizing team success, CP3 has Melo beat. And I know you want to downplay stats for this reason, as anyone who case lacks objective evidence will attempt to do so, but they do play a role in contextualizing a players performance. Under any criteria, CP3 is OBVIOUSLY the superior playoff performer. He proved it again this year.

Is there a reason why we should ignore superior production? I mean you call them fantasy stats but thats not what ACTUAL NBA heads call them. Contextually, CP3 outperforms Melo under ANY individual criteria you wish to use.

More damaging, CP3's value gos well beyond the stats, in terms of intangible worth, I dont think you will find anyone in the NBA to paint Melo as a better leader than CP3 (CP3 inspired that hellacious comeback BTW), hes definitely not going to make up superior production/leadership with his defensive contributions, sooo.... whats the reason to ignore production again?

Why would I give Melo more points for losing in less impressive fashion?

Both guys lose, but that doesn't mean they both played equally well/bad, thus do not share the same burden. Context+Stats matter bro

DoMeFavors
05-20-2013, 01:10 PM
The answer is simple no

Sandman
05-20-2013, 01:11 PM
Iverson wasn't even the best player hes ever played with, that you named him above all else tells me all I need to know about the way you value supporting casts. He had great teams in Denver, they would have been contenders if they had a true star to lead them, not a Class-B star like Melo was, particularly during his Nugg years.

that's BS.

Who do you want Melo to share the ball with on this Knicks team or the old Denver teams? He has never been on a team with any kind of scoring depth.

People said all the same crap about Iverson, how he's selfish and can't share the ball -- the one year he played with Melo they BOTH had their most efficient seasons and BOTH put up 25 ppg. He went to the conference finals with an old Billups.

LeBron left a 66 win team to find elite teammates to play with, and Melo gets a bad rep because he can't do it himself. :rolleyes:

Chronz
05-20-2013, 01:55 PM
that's BS.

Who do you want Melo to share the ball with on this Knicks team or the old Denver teams? He has never been on a team with any kind of scoring depth.
Scoring depth? Who said anything sharing the ball? Im talking about his supporting cast and his own play. Like the Nuggets have always (save for that 1 year he actually tried) been a team that has defended better without Melo on the floor, they have been good enough to win games with him playing a relatively low MPG threshold. I believe he played as little as 34MPG the year the Nuggets had their best season and even when they weren't that good, he was never the kind of guy who would play 40MPG nor play the full 82. So the team was obviously good enough to hold it down with him sitting. As opposed to teams that completely flounder whenever their stars sits. Imagine if Melo was an actual defender..... you dont think those teams could have taken another level? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but you give that team a bonafide star, I see a championship caliber team. I mean, they got to the Conference Finals at one point , how is that not a championship caliber cast if you upgrade the star?


People said all the same crap about Iverson, how he's selfish and can't share the ball -- the one year he played with Melo they BOTH had their most efficient seasons and BOTH put up 25 ppg.
What do I care about what other people said? And Im not sure what barometer of efficiency you're looking at but technically he just had his most efficient season this year. In terms of his Denver tenure then it was during his Final full season with the Nuggs. His usage was at 33% and his PPP (per Off.RTG) was at a then career best 110. Hes had a few seasons where hes pretty much in line with these rates, so its hard to look at Melo's stats and claim any 1 to be substantially more efficient.

Tho if you wanted to be technical, I suppose you could say he had one of his most efficient seasons with AI, the problem is he was just as efficient the year AI only spent half a season there, and before you claim thats what started the trend, know that Melo shot something like 51% with Andre Miller on the court and a lowly 45% with AI that year. So in case you didn't already know, team synergy is more than just about how much "scoring depth" you have alongside you, some players benefit more from having pure playmakers like Andre Miller over scoring guys like Iverson.


He went to the conference finals with an old Billups.
Never said he didnt... and by old Billups you mean the Billups who statistically produced better in Denver than he did during some of his Detroit days. LOL at you trying to downplay the support.


LeBron left a 66 win team to find elite teammates to play with, and Melo gets a bad rep because he can't do it himself. :rolleyes:I dont care what players do with regards to controlling their own destiny, thats not what this is about. I really get the sense you have no idea what Im arguing. Nobody does it by themselves, Im talking about how he played and what he got out of those squads. I'm not impressed with his playoff history. Ive seen first hand how easily he was rattled by the Clips back in the day.

But since you brought it up, there is no question that Bron had a much better reason to leave Cleveland. Bron left a team that struggled to play efficient basketball when he wasn't around. The year they made the Finals I believe they went 0-7 in games he didn't play. This trend of them falling off continued even as they improved their talent base. In other words, he MADE them 66 win clubs and he most definitely played harder in the playoffs than Melo ever could so lets not act like having superior wins = a superior cast, all that could mean is that the team has a superior STAR. I mean most of Melo's best teammates (Billups, AI, Andre Miller, Nene, Camby) would represent a major upgrade over Brons best sidekick (Mo Will, Big Z).

oak2455
05-20-2013, 02:19 PM
The answer is simple no

Where is you're championship sig ??:laugh: you should've just left after the Bulls beat the Nets, remember ??:laugh:

Sandman
05-20-2013, 02:32 PM
Scoring depth? Who said anything sharing the ball? Im talking about his supporting cast and his own play. Like the Nuggets have always (save for that 1 year he actually tried) been a team that has defended better without Melo on the floor, they have been good enough to win games with him playing a relatively low MPG threshold. I believe he played as little as 34MPG the year the Nuggets had their best season and even when they weren't that good, he was never the kind of guy who would play 40MPG nor play the full 82. So the team was obviously good enough to hold it down with him sitting. As opposed to teams that completely flounder whenever their stars sits. Imagine if Melo was an actual defender..... you dont think those teams could have taken another level? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but you give that team a bonafide star, I see a championship caliber team. I mean, they got to the Conference Finals at one point , how is that not a championship caliber cast if you upgrade the star?
Didn't mean to single you out. Its not Melo's fault his team relies on him so much -- 35 minutes is normal. They had a better team that year all around, you can't look at their success and cherry pick Melo's minutes per game and say thats why they were better.

What do I care about what other people said? And Im not sure what barometer of efficiency you're looking at but technically he just had his most efficient season this year. In terms of his Denver tenure then it was during his Final full season with the Nuggs. His usage was at 33% and his PPP (per Off.RTG) was at a then career best 110. Hes had a few seasons where hes pretty much in line with these rates, so its hard to look at Melo's stats and claim any 1 to be substantially more efficient.
Nothing crazy, just FG%. They both had their career high FG% when they were playing together. Just double checked, for AI it was 2nd highest (.458) -- he had .461 in his second season.

Tho if you wanted to be technical, I suppose you could say he had one of his most efficient seasons with AI, the problem is he was just as efficient the year AI only spent half a season there, and before you claim thats what started the trend, know that Melo shot something like 51% with Andre Miller on the court and a lowly 45% with AI that year. So in case you didn't already know, team synergy is more than just about how much "scoring depth" you have alongside you, some players benefit more from having pure playmakers like Andre Miller over scoring guys like Iverson.
I don't think it started a trend or anything, just pointing it out. Two of the most "selfish" players people talk about had no problem putting up 25 together.

Never said he didnt... and by old Billups you mean the Billups who statistically produced better in Denver than he did during some of his Detroit days. LOL at you trying to downplay the support.
Not trying to downplay it all, I actually think Billups is one of the most underrated players of the last decade. Just pointing out that a 32-33 Billups isn't 2004 Championship Billups.

I dont care what players do with regards to controlling their own destiny, thats not what this is about. I really get the sense you have no idea what Im arguing. Nobody does it by themselves, Im talking about how he played and what he got out of those squads. I'm not impressed with his playoff history. Ive seen first hand how easily he was rattled by the Clips back in the day.
Then I might have no idea what you are trying to argue. Melo picked up Billups and made the conference finals. I don't think Billups is a superstar player but with him there the Nugs were a force. They didn't beat the Lakers but nobody did. You can cherry pick games or series all you want, LeBron haters did the same thing.

But since you brought it up, there is no question that Bron had a much better reason to leave Cleveland. Bron left a team that struggled to play efficient basketball when he wasn't around. The year they made the Finals I believe they went 0-7 in games he didn't play. This trend of them falling off continued even as they improved their talent base. In other words, he MADE them 66 win clubs and he most definitely played harder in the playoffs than Melo ever could so lets not act like having superior wins = a superior cast, all that could mean is that the team has a superior STAR. I mean most of Melo's best teammates (Billups, AI, Andre Miller, Nene, Camby) would represent a major upgrade over Brons best sidekick (Mo Will, Big Z).
The Nugs always had good front court defense, but none of those guards played together. Look back at some of those Nugs teams and who got major minutes. Voshon Leonard, E Najera, Anthony Carter, L Kleisza, Earl Boykins, Where does the offense come from? Thats what I mean by scoring depth. I also think this would be a different conversation if Melo played in the East those years. Several (not all) of those first round exits came vs. the Spurs or Lakers teams that dominated that decade.

fingerbang
05-20-2013, 02:57 PM
Based on this logic LBJ is probably the only legit center piece. I'm not a LeBron fan but let's face it, the only way that the Knicks or almost every other team in the league wins a title is if they somehow acquire LeBron.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 03:07 PM
Its not Melo's fault his team relies on him so much -- 35 minutes is normal. They had a better team that year all around, you can't look at their success and cherry pick Melo's minutes per game and say thats why they were better.
"So much"? How can his team rely on him so much yet by your own admission allow him to only play a normal load in terms of MPG? I dont see your point here... Its not just the minutes, its about how the team performs when hes on the bench and why they are able to get away without playing Melo huge minutes.


Nothing crazy, just FG%. They both had their career high FG% when they were playing together. Just double checked, for AI it was 2nd highest (.458) -- he had .461 in his second season.
Measuring efficiency is abit more intricate than that.



I don't think it started a trend or anything, just pointing it out. Two of the most "selfish" players people talk about had no problem putting up 25 together.
I guess but even then, I dont see why you think 2 players cant play selfishly together. Its part of the reason why they failed in the playoff IMO. Its prolly not impossible but given their games, inconsistency is sure to follow. In their first year AI struggled and Melo dominated, in their 2nd series AI played well enough and Melo struggled. Both times they lost to better teams, but its somewhat concerning that the 2 never clicked in a series.


Not trying to downplay it all, I actually think Billups is one of the most underrated players of the last decade. Just pointing out that a 32-33 Billups isn't 2004 Championship Billups.
He actually was. I would say he had lost something defensively by then, but he was without a doubt a much better offensive player (rule changes prolly had something to do with that).
I mean what is it about Chauncey that you find so different? Is it just because they won the championship that year that you attribute it entirely to where Chauncey was in his career? I dont share that same view.




Then I might have no idea what you are trying to argue. Melo picked up Billups and made the conference finals. I don't think Billups is a superstar player but with him there the Nugs were a force. They didn't beat the Lakers but nobody did. You can cherry pick games or series all you want, LeBron haters did the same thing.
Im not cherry picking anything, Im looking at the whole thing. What Im arguing is that Melo isnt a super-star, in the same breath that you dont think Billups is a superstar.


The Nugs always had good front court defense, but none of those guards played together. Look back at some of those Nugs teams and who got major minutes. Voshon Leonard, E Najera, Anthony Carter, L Kleisza, Earl Boykins, Where does the offense come from? Thats what I mean by scoring depth.
Im starting to get a sense of bias here, you mention the likes of Najera (who was the opposite of what constitutes a "Guard") but ignore JR Smith? Im not saying hes a great SG, which is what it appears you're trying to say Melo needs at every position in order to thrive (thus proving my main point) but certainly worthy of some recognition. He played really well vs LA, as did AI.

But no, I still dont know what you mean by scoring depth. This sounds like an excuse that can be made for everyone who ever lost a game. Obviously if they didn't score enough pts, the team didn't win. That doesn't mean we ignore how they played and what they got out of their situations.


I also think this would be a different conversation if Melo played in the East those years. Several (not all) of those first round exits came vs. the Spurs or Lakers teams that dominated that decade.
Elaborate..... Im curious to what you think would be so different...

Chronz
05-20-2013, 03:12 PM
Based on this logic LBJ is probably the only legit center piece. I'm not a LeBron fan but let's face it, the only way that the Knicks or almost every other team in the league wins a title is if they somehow acquire LeBron.
Thats the greatest point anyone can make here.

A center piece player can be someone as good as Chauncey Billups (or as my other thread showed Dennis Johnson), lots of players can win chips if they have enough support. Even downright cancerous players can win the chip, Melo isn't some enigmatic player who is somehow incapable of winning. Thats the kind of thinking that completely ignores the 9 other players on the court.

What we should try doing is judging players by what they get out of their situations. I didn't need to see Bron win a chip to know he was doing a better job of carrying his team than Melo was. I feel he had less support and manage more victories based on statistical and subjective viewpoints, thus hes a better player in my head.

NYMetros
05-20-2013, 03:28 PM
He needs a strong supporting cast. A rim protecting center with a low post game, a legit 2nd scorer, a PG that isn't wildly inconsistent. He could win a championship as the centerpiece of a team though, definitely.

Sandman
05-20-2013, 03:36 PM
"So much"? How can his team rely on him so much yet by your own admission allow him to only play a normal load in terms of MPG? I dont see your point here... Its not just the minutes, its about how the team performs when hes on the bench and why they are able to get away without playing Melo huge minutes.
Because the team was better, thats why he played a few minutes less per game. Seriously tho, I understand most of the argument here but to ignore everything else about that team and pick out Melo playing 2 minutes fewer per game and say thats why they were winning more games is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Measuring efficiency is abit more intricate than that.
Doesn't need to be.

I guess but even then, I dont see why you think 2 players cant play selfishly together. Its part of the reason why they failed in the playoff IMO. Its prolly not impossible but given their games, inconsistency is sure to follow. In their first year AI struggled and Melo dominated, in their 2nd series AI played well enough and Melo struggled. Both times they lost to better teams, but its somewhat concerning that the 2 never clicked in a series.
I don't think it was a winning strategy either, I'm just saying there was enough ball to go around and it tightened up their shot selection so that they were both able to post career high or near career high field goal percentages. Just a response to anybody using words like selfish or volume shooter, I didn't mean to single you out there.

He actually was. I would say he had lost something defensively by then, but he was without a doubt a much better offensive player (rule changes prolly had something to do with that).
I mean what is it about Chauncey that you find so different? Is it just because they won the championship that year that you attribute it entirely to where Chauncey was in his career? I dont share that same view.
27 vs 32

Im not cherry picking anything, Im looking at the whole thing. What Im arguing is that Melo isnt a super-star, in the same breath that you dont think Billups is a superstar.
Whats in a name?

I think they can win a title built around Carmelo in the same way Dallas built around Dirk. Call him whatever you want.

Im starting to get a sense of bias here, you mention the likes of Najera (who was the opposite of what constitutes a "Guard") but ignore JR Smith? Im not saying hes a great SG, which is what it appears you're trying to say Melo needs at every position in order to thrive (thus proving my main point) but certainly worthy of some recognition. He played really well vs LA, as did AI.
Didn't call Najera a guard, just saying along with that you listed 3 or 4 guys as if they were on the team at the same time.

As far as JR, not clowning on him at all. Its the same problem here w/ the Knicks, there's not enough go to guys. Basically same roster, call Chandler Nene/Camby.

But no, I still dont know what you mean by scoring depth. This sounds like an excuse that can be made for everyone who ever lost a game. Obviously if they didn't score enough pts, the team didn't win. That doesn't mean we ignore how they played and what they got out of their situations.
There's nobody that can handle any type of scoring load. How often can Felton put up 20? Kidd? Chandler? Shump, Novak? etc. the Knicks now look a lot like Denver then. They don't have any other guys that can create their own shot and they don't have a PG that can consistently set guys up either. A Dre Miller on this team would be great.

Elaborate..... Im curious to what you think would be so different...
The East was just pretty weak until Garnett showed up in Boston, and even then it was only top heavy. I think Melo could have anchored a team with a 1-4 seed and knocked off one of the BS playoff teams that weren't even .500. Could he have made the finals? Not sure, but I doubt there would have been as many first round exits -- especially if for comparisons sake you take the Denver team and stick them in the east. They probably could have beaten the Magic the year KG was out, that was the year w/ Billups when they were in the WCF.

waveycrockett
05-20-2013, 03:38 PM
Wtf is a class B superstar? He is simply not a superstar

GiantsSwaGG
05-20-2013, 03:55 PM
This could be the problem

:laugh:

JAZZNC
05-20-2013, 04:01 PM
No. Pretty simple question. All the physical tools to dominate his position but too stupid to realize that team basketball wins.....think tall Iverson.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 04:05 PM
Because the team was better, thats why he played a few minutes less per game.
Thats my point.


Seriously tho, I understand most of the argument here but to ignore everything else about that team and pick out Melo playing 2 minutes fewer per game and say thats why they were winning more games is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
Why ignore everything else? You just said it yourself, the TEAM was better. A minute ago it was "its not Melo's fault his team relies on him so much". Obviously if you're on a lesser team, you will likely play more minutes. My point is that his team could get away with Melo playing fewer minutes, a luxury thats not always afforded to star players, for the very reason of his TEAM being so good. I think we've agreed here without knowing it.



Doesn't need to be.
Sorry bro but when it comes to statistics, Im going to side with the ACTUAL STATISTICIANS. You cant fault me for that one.


27 vs 32
So just age? Disregarding how the player actually played isn't my cup of tea.


Whats in a name?
Whatever weight you chose to put on it when referring to Billups is whatever value you wish. Not sure why you're asking me.


I think they can win a title built around Carmelo in the same way Dallas built around Dirk. Call him whatever you want.
I envision more of a Elvin Hayes type of championship. Dirk was a special kind of playoff performer, the likes of which we've never seen from Melo.


Didn't call Najera a guard, just saying along with that you listed 3 or 4 guys as if they were on the team at the same time.
My mistake, I jumped the gun.
Still I dont see why you would get that vibe from me, its pretty obvious any one worth their chops is going to know they didn't all play at the same time, same way Mo and Big Z werent at their peaks together. Im just saying those are the kind of talented players that would be far more qualified as supporting players than anyone Bron had, that some of them actually did play together is the bonus.



As far as JR, not clowning on him at all. Its the same problem here w/ the Knicks, there's not enough go to guys. Basically same roster, call Chandler Nene/Camby.
I think those Denver squads are easily superior to what he has available in NY to be honest with you.


There's nobody that can handle any type of scoring load. How often can Felton put up 20? Kidd? Chandler? Shump, Novak? etc. the Knicks now look a lot like Denver then. They don't have any other guys that can create their own shot and they don't have a PG that can consistently set guys up either. A Dre Miller on this team would be great.
I wouldn't expect NY to win, I just made back most of my playoff losses by hoping they wouldn't against Indy, so my problem with Melo has never been whether his teams win or not. Its been with his fans who blame his squads in Denver as some sort of 1 man crew thats comparable to some of the crap true superstars have had to carry into the post season. Melo isn't in that realm of stardom, which is fine, hes still a player that can help a team to a title, this is too much of a team game to ever come down to just 1 player. But with Melo, I get the feeling people give him superstar excuses as if to justify his individual shortcomings over the years. I dont see it.

odiz
05-20-2013, 04:06 PM
Did Lebron won it all by himself??



And now to contradict myself lol. If lebron had this roster he would probably take it to the conference finals or maybe even to the finals but wouldnt win it all still a better record than what Melo would have

He came pretty close in Cleveland and hes improved his game a lot since then (post-play, outside shooting, defense) hence why i said he could maybe do it now.

sammyvine
05-20-2013, 04:06 PM
Thats the greatest point anyone can make here.

A center piece player can be someone as good as Chauncey Billups (or as my other thread showed Dennis Johnson), lots of players can win chips if they have enough support. Even downright cancerous players can win the chip, Melo isn't some enigmatic player who is somehow incapable of winning. Thats the kind of thinking that completely ignores the 9 other players on the court.

What we should try doing is judging players by what they get out of their situations. I didn't need to see Bron win a chip to know he was doing a better job of carrying his team than Melo was. I feel he had less support and manage more victories based on statistical and subjective viewpoints, thus hes a better player in my head.

Damn you hate melo lol
he has had some great play offs games. I remember against the celtics went he carried the knicks to overtime a couple of years ago.
i dont think he is a centre piece, but few players are. i think lebron, kobe, and wade are the only centre pieces in the league.

odiz
05-20-2013, 04:11 PM
Not true. Ben Wallace was the leader of that team but he definitely was NOT their corner piece or best player. That was Rasheed Wallace at the time and it didn't hurt that all 5 of their starters were allstars either.

Wallace was far and away the most dominant defender and rebounder in the NBA at the time. For a team that was built on defense and rebounding, he was definitely their most important player.

Sandman
05-20-2013, 04:19 PM
Thats my point.


Why ignore everything else? You just said it yourself, the TEAM was better. A minute ago it was "its not Melo's fault his team relies on him so much". Obviously if you're on a lesser team, you will likely play more minutes. My point is that his team could get away with Melo playing fewer minutes, a luxury thats not always afforded to star players, for the very reason of his TEAM being so good. I think we've agreed here without knowing it.
IDK where either of us are going with this. He played 35 minutes instead of 37, I don't understand how this is somehow a neg on Carmelo. Bad team = more minutes, more shots. Good team = less minutes, less points, better shots, better FG%.

Sorry bro but when it comes to statistics, Im going to side with the ACTUAL STATISTICIANS. You cant fault me for that one.
You don't need a statistician, they took better shots and they both posted higher than their normal FG%. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

So just age? Disregarding how the player actually played isn't my cup of tea.
He wasn't the same player, it was an older slower Billups in a completely different system. We dont need to argue about this one tho, I like Billups and the point is that a Billups-caliber player is what it took to put Denver in the WCF.

Still I dont see why you would get that vibe from me, its pretty obvious any one worth their chops is going to know they didn't all play at the same time, same way Mo and Big Z werent at their peaks together. Im just saying those are the kind of talented players that would be far more qualified as supporting players than anyone Bron had, that some of them actually did play together is the bonus.

I think those Denver squads are easily superior to what he has available in NY to be honest with you.
Agreed Denver was better than Bron and the Knicks, they just have some of the same issues and a similar built roster.

I wouldn't expect NY to win, I just made back most of my playoff losses by hoping they wouldn't against Indy, so my problem with Melo has never been whether his teams win or not. Its been with his fans who blame his squads in Denver as some sort of 1 man crew thats comparable to some of the crap true superstars have had to carry into the post season. Melo isn't in that realm of stardom, which is fine, hes still a player that can help a team to a title, this is too much of a team game to ever come down to just 1 player. But with Melo, I get the feeling people give him superstar excuses as if to justify his individual shortcomings over the years. I dont see it.
We have the same opinion then -- I'm sick of people seeing the Knicks/Nugs shortcomings as Melo's fault.

b@llhog24
05-20-2013, 04:30 PM
He needs a strong supporting cast. A rim protecting center with a low post game, a legit 2nd scorer, a PG that isn't wildly inconsistent. He could win a championship as the centerpiece of a team though, definitely.

Sub him for Granger on the Pacers and they win the chip.

naps
05-20-2013, 04:57 PM
Sub him for Granger on the Pacers and they win the chip.

Really? They way Pacers play won't fit Melo. They is no iso ball in their style and I highly doubt we would see the Paul George we now know if he played alongside Melo.

Chronz
05-20-2013, 05:00 PM
Wtf is a class B superstar? He is simply not a superstar
Why argue semantics?

Sandman
05-20-2013, 05:03 PM
Really? They way Pacers play won't fit Melo. They is no iso ball in their style and I highly doubt we would see the Paul George we now know if he played alongside Melo.

I mean, would we have seen him if Granger was healthy? He still would have been the same defender, just somebody else would be doing more of the scoring.

IndyRealist
05-20-2013, 05:51 PM
Sub him for Granger on the Pacers and they win the chip.

That's highly unlikely. Granger has sacrificed more shots every year since Paul George was drafted. Do you really see Melo giving up shot attempts and deferring to David West and Roy Hibbert?

waveycrockett
05-20-2013, 06:34 PM
Wallace was far and away the most dominant defender and rebounder in the NBA at the time. For a team that was built on defense and rebounding, he was definitely their most important player.

Rebounder yes but it could easily be argued that Rasheed Wallace was their best defensive player. Big Ben had the reputation but Sheed was a dominant defender and Sheed was the best PF in the game behind TD and KG.

RLundi
05-20-2013, 06:48 PM
Idk, I'm not really sold.

RLundi
05-20-2013, 06:53 PM
I'm shocked at the amount of times people have misspelled "choker."

There's no extra 'c' people. It isn't "chocker." Good lord.

TheLegend
05-20-2013, 08:06 PM
Of course, but that means nothing. The Detroit Pistons won with Ben Wallace as their corner piece. It's just a matter of what pieces you put around a player. you get a good point guard and some strong defenders and Melo can take a team to a championship. Say Memphis had traded Rudy Gay for Melo instead of Prince, Memphis would be favorites to win the title.

You can take any All-Star level player in this league and build a championship around them as your best player so long as you have the right pieces, right coaching and right match-ups in the playoffs.

But that said, there are obviously better options to build around than Melo. It's not a question of: Could Melo win a ring as the best player on the team? but rather: How many guys would it be easier to build a contender around?

Incorrect. Melo on Memphis would only hurt the productivity of Gasol and Zebo. He's not a team player. He's a black hole. He kills ball movement. Good defenses like the Heat would blow that up every time. Amare is lost now, Melo never makes an effort to get him involved or let him get into a rhythm because he's to busy trying to be the man. This is why he's never goin to win a ship unless he becomes more of a playmaker and get others Involved. Good defenses will trump him every time. It's why the Knicks couldn't beat the Pacers, and the undermanned bulls in the reg season. He's simply to much of a "me first" player so it doesn't matter WHO u put around him. With him getting 1 ast per game it doesn't matter unless he changes his attitude.

TheLegend
05-20-2013, 08:10 PM
Not true. Ben Wallace was the leader of that team but he definitely was NOT their corner piece or best player. That was Rasheed Wallace at the time and it didn't hurt that all 5 of their starters were allstars either.

Wrong!!! The leader of that Piston team was Chauncey Billups CLEARLY!!

b@llhog24
05-20-2013, 08:11 PM
Really? They way Pacers play won't fit Melo. They is no iso ball in their style and I highly doubt we would see the Paul George we now know if he played alongside Melo.

If his usage goes down to about 25-27 area, they'll get by. And I meant if he want there in this offseason. PG would still be a top tier defender.


That's highly unlikely. Granger has sacrificed more shots every year since Paul George was drafted. Do you really see Melo giving up shot attempts and deferring to David West and Roy Hibbert?

I said Granger, for salary purposes. Essentially you'd be moving George to the 2 guard and replace his production with Lance's.

TheLegend
05-20-2013, 08:19 PM
put Melo on CHI, and I mean without Rose, and that team could have beaten MIA

Noah
Boozer
Melo
Butler
Hinrich

that's the kind of team Melo needs around him, I don't think he needs another "superstar"... just some good solid players that can score and defend. maybe an efficient 17ppg player alongside him.

Ironically I think Gallo would have been a great fit alongside Melo... a big SF that can shoot, spread the floor, get to the FT line, defend, and stay out of his way down low.


But Melo doesn't fit in with Chi's team first philosophy.
He's a "me first" type of player. He must get his numbers and chi isn't about that.