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View Full Version : Have we undervalued KG's career? And whats to blame?



Jayrich28
05-17-2013, 11:26 AM
Does kg get enough recognition for how great a player and career he has had?
Why does he not get the same amount of love as kobe or lbj as a once in a lifetime superstar coming straight from high school?
He has played 17 yrs at a high level,15 all star apperances,2 finals and a ring,career 19/10 player,9 straight 20/10 seasons, 9 defensive1st team,mvp(1) and probably the hardest playing superstar to lace them up and could guard anywhere on the floor.

The few years in boston he has accomplished more than he has in minnesota some would say and that was on the downside of his career.

He should be a top 25 player on every list but really he should be higher for the amount of accomplishments he has.

So what factor do you contribute to him being some what undervalued?

KnickaBocka.44
05-17-2013, 12:06 PM
He may be slightly undervalued because of his time in Minnesota and them not competing for many years, but I think for the most part, people value him pretty appropriately. I know I do, he used to be one of my favorite players.

LakersIn5
05-17-2013, 12:12 PM
he should have left minny after 7 hours just like what lebron did

championships > loyalty

Rain City
05-17-2013, 12:21 PM
people that really know basketball dont undervalue KG. hes old school and lets his game do the talking. he tolerated minny for way longer than these new school prima donnas do and led them to the best run they ever had. hes a champion. hes an all time great in every sense of the definition.

duncan is likely going down as the best PF of all time. KGs career and peak stats are nearly the same. i wonder if you flip flopped the 2 and KG got to play his entire career w/ a HOF coach and supporting cast if KG would be argued as the best PF ever?

i got all the respect in the world for timmy, but i wonder if the edge he has over KG is mostly due to circumstance? (you'd never hear KG talk about anything like that or make an excuse).

arkanian215
05-17-2013, 12:31 PM
0

Hawkeye15
05-17-2013, 12:32 PM
who undervalues his career?

sep11ie
05-17-2013, 12:37 PM
How was he undervalued?

DreamShaker
05-17-2013, 12:51 PM
Might also be that some people flat out dislike KG. That can be said for many players, though.

Stinkyoutsider
05-17-2013, 01:05 PM
Undervalued? Not sure but most fans of the game have great respect for him...

I think after his career is over, then we'll see the public as a whole give him what he deserves as far as his true value as a player.

I think some people use championships in the discussion of how valuable the player is but they sometimes forget that it's a team game and you can only compete with the guys on your team. I don't know of a single superstar who was able to win a title without help.

Jayrich28
05-17-2013, 01:06 PM
Media does the lebron hype does. Kg was a rare talent seven ft ,soft touch,could guard the entire floor,unselfish,dominabt on both ends.
You hear these guys talk about lbj,durant,kobe etc doing things that this guy was doing in a small market against stacked odds. He was deadly from 18 to 20ft. He played at a postion of strength when he played and went head to head. Webber,wallace,duncan,malone,jo,dirk,etc.

Jayrich28
05-17-2013, 01:22 PM
the new hs guy ppl comparing with lbj. I think these young guys especially the bigs need to model there gameslike him. Anothony davis,ed davis,larry sanders,ibaka etc.need to study kg film this offseason. Learn howto move their feet,footwork,t develop touch. All these bigs trying to be guards when they should be trying to follow duncan n kg.

b@llhog24
05-17-2013, 01:34 PM
He's a top 14-18 player imo. Anywhere lower than that you're probably underrating him.

bagwell368
05-17-2013, 01:34 PM
Lots of people hate him for his punky style (called getting in your head)
Almost everyone that compares him to TD likes TD better, but on close inspection its very close. Throw out Win Shares since SA won about 10 games more a year than KG's team (and that gave them great seeding as well). Plus when healthy on Boston even though he was past his prime, he was a terror.
Many judge against KG because of his team record - reg season and playoffs. But among the top 15 players all time name anyone outside of Hakeem that had a worse team.


IMO he's clearly top 15, and might end up in #9-12 area. He's certainly part of my all time 12 man team, and one of the few stars that could defer shooting for the good of the team - and still win games with D, rebounding, and passing.

Chronz
05-17-2013, 01:40 PM
Of all the non F.MVP players, hes prolly the best. Hard to overcome time and winning but thats the way these career rankings work.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-17-2013, 02:58 PM
who undervalues his career?

This is what I'm trying to figure out.

mngopher35
05-17-2013, 03:12 PM
If you don't have him as a top 20 player all time, I think you probably underrate him. That said I am not sure how many people actually do underrate him.

DreamShaker
05-17-2013, 05:21 PM
Of all the non F.MVP players, hes prolly the best. Hard to overcome time and winning but thats the way these career rankings work.

Above Robinson? I think him, Barkley, and Malone are close, but Robinson is the one guy I would have trouble with.

Chronz
05-17-2013, 07:13 PM
Above Robinson? I think him, Barkley, and Malone are close, but Robinson is the one guy I would have trouble with.

Yea thats tough, I would prolly take both of them before KG.

bagwell368
05-17-2013, 07:43 PM
This is what I'm trying to figure out.

Try searching back the last two years, there are dozens if not hundreds of posts dripping with disdain/hatred towards KG by PSD posters.

LayBraun
05-17-2013, 07:47 PM
I don't think he gets enough recognition too be honest

LayBraun
05-17-2013, 07:48 PM
His 2004 season was off the charts and something we will see only a handful of times in the history of the game

Lakers Ghost
05-17-2013, 07:50 PM
who undervalues his career?


people that dont know about basketball.:cool:

bagwell368
05-17-2013, 07:52 PM
Yea thats tough, I would prolly take both of them before KG.

Bigs that put D, rebounding, and passing at or above scoring (but that score at a very high level) are rare. Malone was a more dominant scorer than KG with great longevity, but nothing else. Barkley was a defensive liability.

kG is more flexible player in terms of match ups, and great players in the top 20 that burn to play D are rare, as are bigs that pass like that. kG and TD are 1/2 or 2/1 at the #4, ahead of Malone, Barkley and anyone else.

Lakers Ghost
05-17-2013, 07:53 PM
Try searching back the last two years, there are dozens if not hundreds of posts dripping with disdain/hatred towards KG by PSD posters.

KG is a dirty player and hated by many including me, no suprise there.

hugepatsfan
05-17-2013, 08:04 PM
Give KG a talented roster to play with and he'll take care of the chemistry. He's the greatest player I've ever personally seen in any sport in that way. We live in a time where players are always taking under cover shots at other players on the team or we hear reports leak about player X wanting out because he doesn't think his supporting cast is good enough. KG goes against all that. He's probably the other way to a fault, having too much confidence in guys that really aren't good enough. I don't think there's another player that brings an entire team together and also makes them play with fundamentals like KG does. I'm no expert but for what it's worth I have him as my #1 PF of all time and probably a top 10 player.

Cromedome
05-17-2013, 08:08 PM
He may be slightly undervalued because of his time in Minnesotaplayers.

Yes! He spent too much time in west bubble**** and wasted a lot of his good years in limbo. I don't think anyone undervalues him but he could have been a lot more if he left that sinking ship years ago.

Chronz
05-17-2013, 08:11 PM
Bigs that put D, rebounding, and passing at or above scoring (but that score at a very high level) are rare. Malone was a more dominant scorer than KG with great longevity, but nothing else. Barkley was a defensive liability.

kG is more flexible player in terms of match ups, and great players in the top 20 that burn to play D are rare, as are bigs that pass like that. kG and TD are 1/2 or 2/1 at the #4, ahead of Malone, Barkley and anyone else.
No question ahead of Karl Malone, but Chuck was a special kind of playoff performer.

Besides those 2 tho, You really got KG ahead of D-Rob?

bagwell368
05-17-2013, 08:30 PM
KG is a dirty player and hated by many including me, no suprise there.

Your statement is just what I was looking for. People flock to TD away from KG out of personal enmity, not objective considerations.

KG on balance as less dirty and did less physical damage to others than Karl Malone and his high elbows BTW.

bagwell368
05-17-2013, 08:40 PM
No question ahead of Karl Malone, but Chuck was a special kind of playoff performer.

Besides those 2 tho, You really got KG ahead of D-Rob?

Well. That is a tough call, since I don't usually match them head to head. If you need a real center that has a face up game, then DRob is the man for you. KG in an era of strong centers can't play #5 for more than a few minutes at a time. OTOH, KG can guard nasty 4's and 3's that play outside, or patrol the lane, DRob although a great defender couldn't be expected to cover a #3.

IF you want a low post center, not so much on DRob. Where does DRob fit for #5's? Probably not higher than #4 all time. As a Center he tops KG no problem, but as a forward KG lays waste to DRob. So, how can we really rate them head to head?

psperry34116
05-17-2013, 09:09 PM
who undervalues his career?

I think that people think of KG as being in a similar vein to guys like Kidd, Dirk and Nash whereas he should be up there with Duncan and Kobe. Since 1995 greatest careers imo are

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. LeBron
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Nash
7. Pierce
8. DWade
9. CP3
10. Carter

ManRam
05-17-2013, 09:30 PM
all of the above, but mainly just playing in minnesota.

you'd think he'd get more praise from people, and thus more respect, because he stayed. especially now when people selectively hate players for leaving bad teams.


he is undervalued IMO. people put too much stock into winning, and knock guys for not winning on teams they had no business winning on. team success matters, but to some it matters too much.

i really don't think he's all that different than TD. TD is slightly better, but it gets magnified a lot because TD played on some great teams with an all-time great coach, and KD was stuck without either for most of his career

jerellh528
05-17-2013, 09:37 PM
playing in duncans era.
same goes for a lot of players
wade,tmac,inversion etc over shadowed by kobe
durant, melo by lebron

DallasTrilla23
05-17-2013, 09:55 PM
I don't think he's undervalued, i just think people hate him because of the way he plays.

Hes the type of guy that you love on your team but hate him when he's on the other team.

DDynO
05-17-2013, 09:59 PM
I don't think he's undervalued, i just think people hate him because of the way he plays.

Hes the type of guy that you love on your team but hate him when he's on the other team.

Couldn't of said it better.

bagwell368
05-17-2013, 10:25 PM
playing in duncans era.
same goes for a lot of players
wade,tmac,inversion etc over shadowed by kobe
durant, melo by lebron

But with this you are saying TD is obviously better than KG. TD was a better low post scorer, and a better center, but kG was a better defender and better passer. If you look at each year of KG on SA in place of TD it's easy to come to the conclusion that the KG Spurs have one additional title.

To me it depends on what you want, but, if you are looking for the #1 PF all time, it's one or the other, and either choice is defensible.

BTW, by peak, or to date Wade is arguably better than Kobe. Also Durante has more years ahead of him than James, and the history isn't written yet.

Also Iverson is trash comparing him to Kobe vs TD vs KG is patently ridiculous.

Jayrich28
05-18-2013, 01:35 AM
alot of great feed back guys. I also would add that im not sure if alot of people saw him on here in his prime. Those days when it was him and marbury. back when he would crouch down at the top of the key and dare u to run your offense in the half court. Back when u could throw the ball high above the cylinder and he would throw it down with one hand.

If these athletic bigs we have today could even just take even 10% of kgs game and added to theirs this league would be so much better off. When duncan and kg hang them up that might be the last of the truly dominant big man.

bagwell368
05-18-2013, 07:26 AM
Consider the head to head in the reg season and playoffs.

The numbers are very similar, the differences of note in order:

FT%: KG is a much better shooter of freebies than Duncan
AST's: KG nets more assists
Reb's: TD gets more offensive glass, DReb is very similar.
STL: KG gets more steals then TD

Anyone that wants to talk W-L record can please examine the respective rosters. I believe Duncan's teams have won an average of 58 games per year. After Russell I believe Duncan might have the next highest W-L% all time over a career.

If you toss out KG's first 2 years to make his entry age into the NBA the same as TD's, and you adjust any "win share" stat to be a percentage of what each player earned vs the teams numbers, you come to one simple conclusion - their value is virtually the same. Any perception that KG is clearly the lesser player most likely comes from perceived subjective differences (dislike/hatred of KG, Minny being for the most part a weak team with poor playoff records) and not actual objective facts or fair minded analysis.

So yes, when someone claims the difference between KG and TD is the the same as between Kobe and AI - you are talking the tip of an iceberg of opinions that are biased.

ewing
05-18-2013, 08:04 AM
Consider the head to head in the reg season and playoffs.

The numbers are very similar, the differences of note in order:

FT%: KG is a much better shooter of freebies than Duncan
AST's: KG nets more assists
Reb's: TD gets more offensive glass, DReb is very similar.
STL: KG gets more steals then TD

Anyone that wants to talk W-L record can please examine the respective rosters. I believe Duncan's teams have won an average of 58 games per year. After Russell I believe Duncan might have the next highest W-L% all time over a career.

If you toss out KG's first 2 years to make his entry age into the NBA the same as TD's, and you adjust any "win share" stat to be a percentage of what each player earned vs the teams numbers, you come to one simple conclusion - their value is virtually the same. Any perception that KG is clearly the lesser player most likely comes from perceived subjective differences (dislike/hatred of KG, Minny being for the most part a weak team with poor playoff records) and not actual objective facts or fair minded analysis.

So yes, when someone claims the difference between KG and TD is the the same as between Kobe and AI - you are talking the tip of an iceberg of opinions that are biased.

To me the big difference is you could run an offensive through TD. TD controlled the pace and style of play while Tony was developing into a better PG. TD was also a better go to offensive player. KG is a great player and is recognized as such he just not was good as Tim Duncan.

bagwell368
05-18-2013, 08:13 AM
To me the big difference is you could run an offensive through TD. TD controlled the pace and style of play while Tony was developing into a better PG. TD was also a better go to offensive player. KG is a great player and is recognized as such he just not was good as Tim Duncan.

KG is a better passer than TD - period. KG also faced a good deal more defensive pressure until 2007-2008 than TD since he was essentially a one man team with a meh system/coach and TD had a stellar team/coaching/plan to work with.

KG deferred more of his shooting than TD, but his percentages were stellar in particular since he was taking most of his FG's deeper then TD. TD is a 5/4, and KG is a 4/5. If you need a 5/4 go for TD, but, the conclusion that he is flat better sits on no actual facts unless you start talking rings (a team function), or the gentleman vs the agitator - which are subjective factors unsupported by objective facts that can be made to stick. BTW the name of the game is winning, and players that use whatever means are necessary get more points not less than some ambassador for the game/nice guy. KG would lie in traffic for his teammates and taunt his enemies - as it should be. Bird was like that, so was Cowens. Does political correctness by sprout eaters with perfectly matched wardrobes and a fat bottle full of prozac have to dictate everything these days? Go watch the Sopranos.

Now don't get me wrong. My all time 12 man team has both of them. TD is great, but the difference between the 2 isn't as extreme as Kobe vs Iverson (haha), or MJ vs Kobe, or Bird vs Erving - it's much closer than that, and as I said comes more down to what you need that any actual stamping of "clearly better", "easily better", etc. The most it can be is "slightly better" - and depending on who they are playing it can and would switch.

ewing
05-18-2013, 08:25 AM
KG is a better passer than TD - period. KG also faced a good deal more defensive pressure until 2007-2008 than TD since he was essentially a one man team with a meh system/coach and TD had a stellar team/coaching/plan to work with.

KG deferred more of his shooting than TD, but his percentages were stellar in particular since he was taking most of his FG's deeper then TD. TD is a 5/4, and KG is a 4/5. If you need a 5/4 go for TD, but, the conclusion that he is flat better sits on no actual facts unless you start talking rings (a team function), or the gentleman vs the agitator - which are subjective factors unsupported by objective facts that can be made to stick.

Sorry but assist numbers does not make you a better passer or facilitator. TD ability to wait, allow play to develop, and make great decisions out of the low post made him a better offensive player imo. It allowed the Spurs to control tempo, stay balanced, and play within there sets.

hugepatsfan
05-18-2013, 09:13 AM
KG brought the ball up for his team in a playoff series. No one is saying TD isn't a good passer, but KG clearly gets the nod in that specific category. You can be an terrific passer and still be a clear second to KG as he's that good a passer for a big.

bagwell368
05-18-2013, 09:51 AM
Sorry but assist numbers does not make you a better passer or facilitator. TD ability to wait, allow play to develop, and make great decisions out of the low post made him a better offensive player imo. It allowed the Spurs to control tempo, stay balanced, and play within there sets.

That's true, but I'm not basing my opinion on just that. Go watch the 2007-2008 season - the only team KG was on that was a match for the best of TD's teams. Watch the years after that when he was reasonably healthy. He was panned many times in the Boston press for not shooting enough and passing too much.

TD has held the ball more in his career (27.7 > 25.1 for KG), but KG had more assists and a higher assist%. In fact TD never had over 19.5% (16.5 ave), even during the years SAS didn't have an elite point. KG had 9 years above that, some quite a bit higher (27.1% - 19.6 ave). - All this with KG playing on teams with two assist studs at PG logging a more assists than SAS's PG's (from memory, didn't look it up).

So TD held the ball more, and had distinctly less assists with a better group to work with - hmmm that's some cosmic passing skill there.

You don't account for SAS being a superior team with superior coaching in all of this either. All you have is subjectives held by a mind that was already all made up on the topic.

ewing
05-18-2013, 10:05 AM
That's true, but I'm not basing my opinion on just that. Go watch the 2007-2008 season - the only team KG was on that was a match for the best of TD's teams. Watch the years after that when he was reasonably healthy. He was panned many times in the Boston press for not shooting enough and passing too much.

TD has held the ball more in his career (27.7 > 25.1 for KG), but KG had more assists and a higher assist%. In fact TD never had over 19.5% (16.5 ave), even during the years SAS didn't have an elite point. KG had 9 years above that, some quite a bit higher (27.1% - 19.6 ave). - All this with KG playing on teams with two assist studs at PG logging a more assists than SAS's PG's (from memory, didn't look it up).

So TD held the ball more, and had distinctly less assists with a better group to work with - hmmm that's some cosmic passing skill there.

You don't account for SAS being a superior team with superior coaching in all of this either. All you have is subjectives held by a mind that was already all made up on the topic.

Sorry, i have an opinion. So do you. The numbers you are posting do not make your opinion fact. Assist number/assist% or whatever do not make you a better passer/facilitior. Someone mention AI in this thread. He had decent assist #s he also played at one pace and tried to make a play every time he touched the ball. KG has been nothing but a mid range jumper shooter on offensive his whole career. You cannot run an offensive through a mid range jumps shooter. TD has had a low post present with equal or better court vision and better timing imo. His carbonation of skills is what allowed SA to be elite. Yes, he had a better caste then KG but the Spurs would have been nothing without Duncan and Pop would have been just another coach.

waveycrockett
05-18-2013, 10:57 AM
The gap between KG and TD is created by one guy playing with Pop, Parker, Manu, and The Admiral throughout his entire career while the other guy had has prime with Wally Sczerbiack as his side kick during his prime.

pedrofan45
05-18-2013, 11:28 AM
The gap between KG and TD is created by one guy playing with Pop, Parker, Manu, and The Admiral throughout his entire career while the other guy had has prime with Wally Sczerbiack as his side kick during his prime.

Exactly. And the gap between them now is tiny.

Imagine if prime KG had Rondo, Pierce, and Doc. :drool:

lamzoka
05-18-2013, 12:28 PM
A lot of fans hate K.G, but i think everybody respect his game. i dont think he's undervalued.
he's definitely a first ballot hall of fame

bagwell368
05-18-2013, 12:32 PM
[/B]

Sorry, i have an opinion. So do you. The numbers you are posting do not make your opinion fact.

I can't convince you and you can't convince me - but to people with open minds seeing the stats on my side cannot hurt my arguments, but they can hurt yours.


KG has been nothing but a mid range jumper shooter on offensive his whole career.

Howling rubbish. KG was a great low post scorer, but he didn't do it as much, after he got hurt in 2008-09 he became what you said. In fact, most people with the chops to judge will tell you KG and TD are both somewhere in the #4-9 range of low post offensive players in NBA history. A clear sign of your bias, or that you didn't see him enough in his prime.


You cannot run an offensive through a mid range jumps shooter.

Obviously false. Ever hear of Larry Bird? What about Steph Curry?


TD has had a low post present with equal or better court vision and better timing imo. His carbonation of skills is what allowed SA to be elite. Yes, he had a better caste then KG but the Spurs would have been nothing without Duncan and Pop would have been just another coach.

Yes TD had a better cast, but there is no way to claim TD was more important to SAS than KG was to Minny. Court vision? KG is a phenominal passer, not as good as Bird at the #3, or Walton at the #5, but there is no better passer than KG at the #4, certainly not Timmy. Arguably Barkley was a better passer then TD, and when Bird was playing #4 which was quite a bit, he was better than any of them by far.

False, put KG on SAS during the same seasons TD played for SAS and SAS has one and possibly two more titles. Go ahead, line them up head to head.

nyKnicks126
05-18-2013, 12:36 PM
None of the above

BULLSFAN0810
05-18-2013, 01:18 PM
people that really know basketball dont undervalue KG. hes old school and lets his game do the talking. he tolerated minny for way longer than these new school prima donnas do and led them to the best run they ever had. hes a champion. hes an all time great in every sense of the definition.

duncan is likely going down as the best PF of all time. KGs career and peak stats are nearly the same. i wonder if you flip flopped the 2 and KG got to play his entire career w/ a HOF coach and supporting cast if KG would be argued as the best PF ever?

i got all the respect in the world for timmy, but i wonder if the edge he has over KG is mostly due to circumstance? (you'd never hear KG talk about anything like that or make an excuse).
Exactly! I've always had KG as better. Very undervalued.

Supreme LA
05-18-2013, 01:26 PM
Anybody who underrated KG doesn't know a thing about basketball.

javaid64
05-18-2013, 05:23 PM
please....garnet is not a better player than timmy, actual achievements are greater than hypotheticals

and also i believe garnet took the 6 year 126 million dollar contract that but twolves in salary cap hell, he himself is one the reason why they couldn't add anyone good. he didnt coexist with marbury early(partially marbury fault. like really when he was in minesota he only made it out of 1st round once...and the last couple of years he was on a lottery team in minesota. he never made anyone around him better, i can't think of one player who actually got better who wasn't already a good player.

plus he is the dirtiest players in the league. and he nevers gets called for it cause he mastered playing it off like he didnt even do anything. he is classless player in my opinion.

he doesnt even belong in the same breath as tim duncan

Tony_Starks
05-18-2013, 06:09 PM
Most reasonable fans, even those that dislike him, put him in the greatest PFs of all time conversation.

I'm not sure what else there is to say.

ewing
05-18-2013, 06:15 PM
I can't convince you and you can't convince me - but to people with open minds seeing the stats on my side cannot hurt my arguments, but they can hurt yours.



Howling rubbish. KG was a great low post scorer, but he didn't do it as much, after he got hurt in 2008-09 he became what you said. In fact, most people with the chops to judge will tell you KG and TD are both somewhere in the #4-9 range of low post offensive players in NBA history. A clear sign of your bias, or that you didn't see him enough in his prime.

KG has been a turn around and spot shooter from day 1. KG no where near a top 10 low post scorer.
Kareem
Dantley
Barkley
C webb
Ewing
Walton
Wilt
Moses
Shaq
McHale
Hakeem
Mark Aquier
Malone
Sickma

Off the top of my head and all better low post scorers then KG. KG was an efficient 20 a night guy. If he was a more then that on the offensive end he would have showed in Minn





Obviously false. Ever hear of Larry Bird? What about Steph Curry?

Larry Bird broke down defenses from every spot on the floor. He created off the bounce, from the post, off screens you name it. Curry breaks down people off the dribble all day. KG was a very good scorer and did not never had near the ability to break down and make defensive collapse like either player.



Yes TD had a better cast, but there is no way to claim TD was more important to SAS than KG was to Minny. Court vision? KG is a phenominal passer, not as good as Bird at the #3, or Walton at the #5, but there is no better passer than KG at the #4, certainly not Timmy. Arguably Barkley was a better passer then TD, and when Bird was playing #4 which was quite a bit, he was better than any of them by far.

Bird is by far the greatest passing forward of all time. Chuck was a great passer to but an rediculous ball stopper. He held the ball in the post longer then anyone. I'd build and offensive arround TD before chuck for this reason

False, put KG on SAS during the same seasons TD played for SAS and SAS has one and possibly two more titles. Go ahead, line them up head to head.

Unless you have some kind of magic machine i don;t think this possible.

mngopher35
05-18-2013, 08:12 PM
I have always thought that if you switch Duncan and KG that KG might be considered the best PF of all time. I am not sure, but with the team success he would likely have achieved I think it's possible. I think Duncan is probably slightly better but it's very close. I'm a little surprised that so many seem to think something similar (I thought nearly everyone thought TD was the better player and could choose easily).

bagwell368
05-18-2013, 08:22 PM
please....garnet is not a better player than timmy, actual achievements are greater than hypotheticals

and also i believe garnet took the 6 year 126 million dollar contract that but twolves in salary cap hell, he himself is one the reason why they couldn't add anyone good. he didnt coexist with marbury early(partially marbury fault. like really when he was in minesota he only made it out of 1st round once...and the last couple of years he was on a lottery team in minesota. he never made anyone around him better, i can't think of one player who actually got better who wasn't already a good player.

plus he is the dirtiest players in the league. and he nevers gets called for it cause he mastered playing it off like he didnt even do anything. he is classless player in my opinion.

he doesnt even belong in the same breath as tim duncan

Hate has poisoned your reason. Take a look at what KG did for the Celts. He not PP or anyone else was the prime reason they won the title, and he was better than PP, RR, and RA overall as well - easily since then, and all that while playing grinding defense and giving up his shot gladly in order to help win.

TD is great, but had the benefit of far superior coaching, McHale's sidekick was a moron. TD was never tested by being on a **** team, so nobody knows how he would have reacted.

Supreme LA
05-18-2013, 08:26 PM
please....garnet is not a better player than timmy, actual achievements are greater than hypotheticals

and also i believe garnet took the 6 year 126 million dollar contract that but twolves in salary cap hell, he himself is one the reason why they couldn't add anyone good. he didnt coexist with marbury early(partially marbury fault. like really when he was in minesota he only made it out of 1st round once...and the last couple of years he was on a lottery team in minesota. he never made anyone around him better, i can't think of one player who actually got better who wasn't already a good player.

plus he is the dirtiest players in the league. and he nevers gets called for it cause he mastered playing it off like he didnt even do anything. he is classless player in my opinion.

he doesnt even belong in the same breath as tim duncan

KG is definitely better than Tim Duncan IMO. Timmy definitely benefited playing for Pop and playing alongside Tony Parker and Manu, as well as David Robinson early in his career. To have the same championship core of players for so long has really helped Timmy. I really don't think Tim Duncan could take Minnesota anywhere during those years and I definitely doubt Timmy ever wins a title without Tony Parker or POP.

bagwell368
05-18-2013, 08:34 PM
Unless you have some kind of magic machine i don;t think this possible.

Jack Sikma (good, but about as good as Ewing or Parish, not all time, no match for KG), Dantley (please, superb under 6' 5" low post guy, (KG and McHale would eat him for breakfast)), Ewing, Aquirre (good moves, but no match for Dantley) are all inferior to KG in the low post (among 4/5's).

Do please get your spelling and your facts down. I saw every one of these guys play. The 3 best are Hakeem, Jabbar, and McHale. Wilt, Moses, Duncan, Shaq, and KG are the next 5. Barkley, K. Malone, Walton follow them up.

ewing
05-18-2013, 08:47 PM
Jack Sikma (good, but about as good as Ewing or Parish, not all time, no match for KG), Dantley (please, superb under 6' 5" low post guy, (KG and McHale would eat him for breakfast)), Ewing, Aquirre (good moves, but no match for Dantley) are all inferior to KG in the low post (among 4/5's).

Do please get your spelling and your facts down. I saw every one of these guys play. The 3 best are Hakeem, Jabbar, and McHale. Wilt, Moses, Duncan, Shaq, and KG are the next 5. Barkley, K. Malone, Walton follow them up.

I saw these guys play too and if you think Robert Parish had a comparable post games to Ewing you are mad plus and Dantaly was a monster on the low block.

Jayrich28
05-18-2013, 09:32 PM
Not really when u hear talks of the great players of the last 15 yrs...you here shaq , duncan, kobe, lbj but kg name isn't mention hell even nash , dirk get mention before him.

Jayrich28
05-18-2013, 09:43 PM
please....garnet is not a better player than timmy, actual achievements are greater than hypotheticals

and also i believe garnet took the 6 year 126 million dollar contract that but twolves in salary cap hell, he himself is one the reason why they couldn't add anyone good. he didnt coexist with marbury early(partially marbury fault. like really when he was in minesota he only made it out of 1st round once...and the last couple of years he was on a lottery team in minesota. he never made anyone around him better, i can't think of one player who actually got better who wasn't already a good player.

plus he is the dirtiest players in the league. and he nevers gets called for it cause he mastered playing it off like he didnt even do anything. he is classless player in my opinion.

he doesnt even belong in the same breath as tim duncan

Prime example right here

jerellh528
05-18-2013, 09:51 PM
But with this you are saying TD is obviously better than KG. TD was a better low post scorer, and a better center, but kG was a better defender and better passer. If you look at each year of KG on SA in place of TD it's easy to come to the conclusion that the KG Spurs have one additional title.

To me it depends on what you want, but, if you are looking for the #1 PF all time, it's one or the other, and either choice is defensible.

BTW, by peak, or to date Wade is arguably better than Kobe. Also Durante has more years ahead of him than James, and the history isn't written yet.

Also Iverson is trash comparing him to Kobe vs TD vs KG is patently ridiculous.

Im sorry you misunderstood my post. what i meant is great players are overshadowed when they play with an even greater player in their generation/prime.

Jayrich28
05-18-2013, 09:54 PM
I have always thought that if you switch Duncan and KG that KG might be considered the best PF of all time. I am not sure, but with the team success he would likely have achieved I think it's possible. I think Duncan is probably slightly better but it's very close. I'm a little surprised that so many seem to think something similar (I thought nearly
everyone thought TD was the better player and could choose easily).

Actually many feel that way had he been surround by better talent that he wouldve challenged timmy for best ever.

But him being in minnesota I think alot of these guys missed out on a extremely rare talent.

TrueFan420
05-19-2013, 01:05 AM
who undervalues his career?
This

ewing
05-19-2013, 01:41 AM
Jack Sikma (good, but about as good as Ewing or Parish, not all time, no match for KG), Dantley (please, superb under 6' 5" low post guy, (KG and McHale would eat him for breakfast)), Ewing, Aquirre (good moves, but no match for Dantley) are all inferior to KG in the low post (among 4/5's).

Do please get your spelling and your facts down. I saw every one of these guys play. The 3 best are Hakeem, Jabbar, and McHale. Wilt, Moses, Duncan, Shaq, and KG are the next 5. Barkley, K. Malone, Walton follow them up.

If you respond with please to Dantley being a better low post scoer then KG just stop posting LOL

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 07:10 AM
I saw these guys play too and if you think Robert Parish had a comparable post games to Ewing you are mad plus and Dantaly was a monster on the low block.

Dantley couldn't do spit when McHlale covered him, so much for monster skills against mobile tall 4's.

Ewing was better than Parish, but not by much. Hell why not talk about Cedric Maxwell, he was among the most elusive low post scorers ever. Not thunderous, just unblockable - and look at those FG%'s.

You saw Wilt play when he was still an offensive force? Funny, the other 4 guys in the past on PSD that claimed to go back that far were full of beans. Let's hear your story.

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 07:21 AM
If you respond with please to Dantley being a better low post scoer then KG just stop posting LOL

I saw what McHale did to Dantley's low post game. Dantley is probably the best sub 6' 5" low post scorer I can think of, but that's a sub category.

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 09:16 AM
On second thought I'll have to move Ewing up. I started watching him play in HS, and have long been unhappy with the retardation of his offensive game at Georgetown, and with him getting routinely shoved back in the line by the elite Centers of his time. I also forgot about some of his hook shots.

All that being said, as an overall package he isn't as great as KG.

sammyvine
05-19-2013, 09:49 AM
garnett took huge contracts which is why minossta couldn't build around him

i mean he got a $126m contract, yet you expect to build around a player taking that much of the salary:rolleyes:

sammyvine
05-19-2013, 09:51 AM
Actually many feel that way had he been surround by better talent that he wouldve challenged timmy for best ever.

But him being in minnesota I think alot of these guys missed out on a extremely rare talent.

yeah but he may also have not fitted in Pop's system. He took too many jump shots in his prime and played like a shooting guard instead of a PF

hugepatsfan
05-19-2013, 10:09 AM
garnett took huge contracts which is why minossta couldn't build around him

i mean he got a $126m contract, yet you expect to build around a player taking that much of the salary:rolleyes:

Since they got off their rookie contracts KG has averaged a yearly salary of 20.4 million and TD a salary of 16.2 million. (That doesn't include this past year though). You really think 4.2 million makes such a huge difference...

ewing
05-19-2013, 10:22 AM
Dantley couldn't do spit when McHlale covered him, so much for monster skills against mobile tall 4's.

Ewing was better than Parish, but not by much. Hell why not talk about Cedric Maxwell, he was among the most elusive low post scorers ever. Not thunderous, just unblockable - and look at those FG%'s.


You saw Wilt play when he was still an offensive force? Funny, the other 4 guys in the past on PSD that claimed to go back that far were full of beans. Let's hear your story.

I meant the guys in your post. I'm 35. Parish was not in the ball park of Pat Ewing and go look at what Dantley did against the Celtics in the playsoffs. Hell look at what he did against everyone in the league. The guy averaged over 30 a night on over 50% from the floor 4 times. Couldn't score against height??? He could scored against anyone and everyone on the planet. No one could cover AD one on one on the block. You want to bring up other players the were superior to KG in the low post go ahead. I just went with the guys off the top of my head. I am sure there are more.

ewing
05-19-2013, 10:28 AM
I saw what McHale did to Dantley's low post game. Dantley is probably the best sub 6' 5" low post scorer I can think of, but that's a sub category.

Looks like he held him to about 25 on 60% from the field in 87 ECF

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1987_ECF.html

ewing
05-19-2013, 10:31 AM
I will give KG credit for starting a trend where you throw all your teammates under the bus if you're team isn't good enough

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 11:56 AM
yeah but he may also have not fitted in Pop's system. He took too many jump shots in his prime and played like a shooting guard instead of a PF

It's a little known fact that KG was a #3 when he first started to play in the NBA. Of all 5 positions, SG is least like the way KG plays and has played (ever check out those career rebounding and block stats?).

Pathetically ridiculous.

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 12:00 PM
BTW, Happy 37th KG!

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 12:13 PM
Looks like he held him to about 25 on 60% from the field in 87 ECF

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1987_ECF.html

They played 38 games vs each other and McHale had a higher FG%, FT%, PPG, RPG (obviously), and BPG (by far obviously - geez, who was he blocking?)

Much better to go for the career data (reg season and playoffs both) Dantley had games of 5 for 12 and 6 for 17 in that Series. While McHale dropped a 15 for 25 and 15 for 21 on Dantley during the regular season. Geez I thought an expert on the old NBA expert would know that McHale played that Series on a broken foot - even so, with 7 of his playoff games against Dantley he still beat him statistically.

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 12:14 PM
I will give KG credit for starting a trend where you throw all your teammates under the bus if you're team isn't good enough

Ever hear of Michael Jordan? Ask Bill Cartright sometime..

ewing
05-19-2013, 12:28 PM
They played 38 games vs each other and McHale had a higher FG%, FT%, PPG, RPG (obviously), and BPG (by far obviously - geez, who was he blocking?)

Much better to go for the career data (reg season and playoffs both) Dantley had games of 5 for 12 and 6 for 17 in that Series. While McHale dropped a 15 for 25 and 15 for 21 on Dantley during the regular season. Geez I thought an expert on the old NBA expert would know that McHale played that Series on a broken foot - even so, with 7 of his playoff games against Dantley he still beat him statistically.

Don't change the agruement. McHale was the best low post scorer I've ever seen. I think he was a better player then Dantley but that doesn't mean that Dantley couldn't score on him b/c he was long. You said Dantley couldn't score against a long defender like McHale and that is crap. You don't put up the kind of numbers Dantley put up if you can't score against length. AD could score on ANYONE. Its what he did. The guy scored 30 a night 4 years in a row while shooting over 50% every year but he couldn't score on length? Oh and KG was a better low post scorer, right? AD was light years ahead of KG when it comes low post play. KG is not a top 5 low post player in his own era forgot all time.

ewing
05-19-2013, 12:30 PM
Ever hear of Michael Jordan? Ask Bill Cartright sometime..

I don't remember micheal publicly calling out his whole franchise for sucking and crying on TV b/c it wasn't fair that his teammates were such scrubs. That's KG material

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 04:25 PM
Don't change the agruement. McHale was the best low post scorer I've ever seen. I think he was a better player then Dantley but that doesn't mean that Dantley couldn't score on him b/c he was long. You said Dantley couldn't score against a long defender like McHale and that is crap.

change the subject? it's not my fault you didn't know about McHale's foot and were trying to make hay with Dantleys 87 playoffs. the Celts won the title the year before with one of the five best teams of all tme. so it was a league wide story. BTW, i never said Dantley didn't score on McHale. His low post game was largely abandoned vs McHale.


You don't put up the kind of numbers Dantley put up if you can't score against length. AD could score on ANYONE. Its what he did.

Sorry, during those years, McHalde did more damage to the Pistons than Bird did. either you forgot how dominant McHale was in low post both ways (witness the stack of 1st team all defense he won), or you never saw it first hand.


The guy scored 30 a night 4 years in a row while shooting over 50% every year but he couldn't score on length? Oh and KG was a better low post scorer, right?

dantley had more moves than kg and spent more time shooting, but kg has been very efficient, anf against tougher competition.


KG is not a top 5 low post player in his own era forgot all time.

Name 5 better low post scores in his own time.

ewing
05-19-2013, 06:22 PM
change the subject? it's not my fault you didn't know about McHale's foot and were trying to make hay with Dantleys 87 playoffs. the Celts won the title the year before with one of the five best teams of all tme. so it was a league wide story. BTW, i never said Dantley didn't score on McHale. His low post game was largely abandoned vs McHale.



Sorry, during those years, McHalde did more damage to the Pistons than Bird did. either you forgot how dominant McHale was in low post both ways (witness the stack of 1st team all defense he won), or you never saw it first hand.



dantley had more moves than kg and spent more time shooting, but kg has been very efficient, anf against tougher competition.



Name 5 better low post scores in his own time.


Again, i never said McHale wasn't great or that AD was better then him. I said AD could score on anyone and was a MUCH better low post scorer then KG

Here are guys KG played against that were better low post players then him:


Shaq
Tim Duncan
Chris Webber
Karl Malone
Yao
Dirk

im going to add Pau Gasol, Vin and Tonic Baker, and Elton Brand to this list. I'm sure there are others.

Lim
05-19-2013, 11:54 PM
25,274 points, 13,843 rebounds, 5,224 assists, 1,742 steals, 1,970 blocks.

Legend