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View Full Version : Clippers and Hornets Having Discussions About Bledsoe+DJ for Gordon+Lopez



Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Not sure how valid these "rumors" are but here are the "sources".

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nba/rumors/post?id=7705


https://twitter.com/McNamara247

This guy is a Hornets blogger/writer.



"Off air with Clippers writer, he said he has heard a lot of buzz from FO sources that a Bledsoe/Jordan for EG/Lopez deal could go down"

"Exact deal for salary purposes would be : EG/Lopez for Bledsoe, Jordan, Hill (who would retire) and our old favorite Willie Green"



I predict most Clippers fans will be against this but I'm 100 percent for it. Sure Gordon is injury prone but if he can even play 50-60 games a year he's the PERFECT 3rd piece to go with CP3+Griffin which is why I was so bummed we sent him off in that trade. He's been a punk lately but he was devastated to be traded from LA and I'm sure he would be happy to be back (clearly doesn't like New Orleans). Hornets get another long defending big to pair with AD and a great backup PG or PG of the future if they trade Vasquez.

Lopez would be a very nice center to pair with Griffin. More range than DJ, much more aggressive and physical. I think this trade can benefit both teams. Clippers want to shed DJ and Hornets want to shed EJ so both teams make out decent. Lopez expires after next year too so the Clippers can make some clearing moves to avoid luxury penalties if need be. Will only have 4 players under contract after 2013-2014 season.

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:08 PM
I would love this honestly, helps quite a bit

DoMeFavors
05-13-2013, 04:09 PM
They have Anthony Davis why would they want another center on a big year deal?

NYKnickFanatic
05-13-2013, 04:09 PM
How does this help LAC?

NYKnickFanatic
05-13-2013, 04:10 PM
They have Anthony Davis why would they want another center on a big year deal?

Davis is a PF.

oak2455
05-13-2013, 04:11 PM
Davis is a PF.

Why bother ?

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:11 PM
Davis is a PF, he played C on some stretches but his real position is a PF

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:12 PM
That awkward moment when EG goes back to the team he was traded by

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:12 PM
Davis is a PF. Despite DJ being utter trash offensively there are times when he's very good defensively and I think the length of him and Davis would truly overwhelm teams, especially if they both get stronger. Supposedly DJ's putting on weight already.

Knickfanatic Clippers fans all wanted a trio of CP3+Gordon+Griffin. Gordon is the perfect compliment and a great fit. He moves excellent off the ball, is a top tier man defender, gets to the line excellent, can knock down 3's. He's just a very all around SG who can dominate on and off the ball and play defense. The BIG question mark is his health but it's worth the risk IMO.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-13-2013, 04:13 PM
Gordon doesn't want to be there anyways. Might as well get a young players in return. Solid deal. Bledsoe can be a solid defensive PG that can score enough. Jordan's defense can help alleviate the defensive responsibilities Davis has.

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:13 PM
That awkward moment when EG goes back to the team he was traded by

Remember the mugshot he gave when traded? He was PISSED. He even called the Clippers out for trading him and seems bitter till this day. I know that seems like a guy you DON'T want back.. but I was a fan when players were celebrating being traded from the team so to me it just shows how much he liked it here. I'm sure he'd love to be back.

2-ONE-5
05-13-2013, 04:15 PM
this would be a good deal for both sides. Hornets really need a defender like Bledsoe

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:17 PM
Eric Gordon's mugshot when arriving to New Orleans.

http://clippers.topbuzz.com/modules/PNphpBB2/upload-pics/clippers/1977_136051326_1.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQESaDluUzSw3YDLJFD40po9NOKls8mZ q2XRX25GeXGWNWUsSnm

Looks like he's about to kill a *****.

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:22 PM
Remember the mugshot he gave when traded? He was PISSED. He even called the Clippers out for trading him and seems bitter till this day. I know that seems like a guy you DON'T want back.. but I was a fan when players were celebrating being traded from the team so to me it just shows how much he liked it here. I'm sure he'd love to be back.

His mugshot looked funny as hell!

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:24 PM
What if CP signs with the Pelicans and EG goes back with the Clips, that would be even more awkward

mngopher35
05-13-2013, 04:26 PM
Seems like a good trade for the Hornets, and risky for the Clips. If Gordon can stay healthy then it makes the Clippers very dangerous.

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:32 PM
McNamara is very reliable btw

Showtime Steve
05-13-2013, 04:35 PM
I'm a lakers fan and hate the clips. But why would they do that?! Eric Gordon is getting overpayed and is injury prone. And the 1 person in the league who's worse in the post than DJ is robin Lopez! And that gives NO a crazy PF/C combo.

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:37 PM
I'm a lakers fan and hate the clips. But why would they do that?! Eric Gordon is getting overpayed and is injury prone. And the 1 person in the league who's worse in the post than DJ is robin Lopez! And that gives NO a crazy PF/C combo.

And a good PG :)

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:38 PM
I'm a lakers fan and hate the clips. But why would they do that?! Eric Gordon is getting overpayed and is injury prone. And the 1 person in the league who's worse in the post than DJ is robin Lopez! And that gives NO a crazy PF/C combo.

Lopez>DJ overall. 16/8/2 PER 36 compared to 13/10/2 PER 36 but Lopez is a lot stronger, more physical and more consistent. He just has a high motor and I think if you put him next to a guy like Griffin who commands doubles and a player like CP3 to create for him.. he will tear it up. Best of all he hits free throws at a great percentage for a center.

Dade County
05-13-2013, 04:38 PM
can not compute.......................malfunction

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:39 PM
McNamara is very reliable btw

That's good to know. His "sources" seem pretty legit?

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 04:43 PM
I like this trade for the Clippers more than the Pelicans.

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:46 PM
I like this trade for the Clippers more than the Pelicans.

How far do you think a squad of let's say...

CP3
Gordon
Barnes
Griffin
Lopez

6th man: Crawford

could get?

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 04:48 PM
That's good to know. His "sources" seem pretty legit?

Yessir

Showtime Steve
05-13-2013, 04:50 PM
Lopez>DJ overall. 16/8/2 PER 36 compared to 13/10/2 PER 36 but Lopez is a lot stronger, more physical and more consistent. He just has a high motor and I think if you put him next to a guy like Griffin who commands doubles and a player like CP3 to create for him.. he will tear it up. Best of all he hits free throws at a great percentage for a center.

Not being a clips fan I'm not questioning you knowledge of your team, and I'm not a stats head so I understand your PER points. I just feel that your biggest problem was no post Presence especially In the clutch. If you guys had a decent guy who could go to work on the block and less wear and tear on cp3, you could have done something big. If you're shopping DJ and Bledsoe,
I know you can get better on the market.

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 04:52 PM
Not being a clips fan I'm not questioning you knowledge of your team, and I'm not a stats head so I understand your PER points. I just feel that your biggest problem was no post Presence especially In the clutch. If you guys had a decent guy who could go to work on the block and less wear and tear on cp3, you could have done something big. If you're shopping DJ and Bledsoe,
I know you can get better on the market.

I think the team will package Bledsoe and DJ, at least they should. I might be bias because I was such a huge Gordon fan. Griffin ranks number 1 in the NBA on points in the paint if you combine the last 3 years. I think the bigger issue for us is a center who can hit free throws, defend and hit the occasional jumper. Lopez is a guy who can do that.

bleedprple&gold
05-13-2013, 04:57 PM
I like this trade for the Clippers more than the Pelicans.

Agree. Clippers need a SG more than the Pelicans need a PG. They already have a good PG in Vasquez who keeps getting better. Is Bledsoe going to come off the bench again? Don't see why the Pelicans do this other than to get rid of the Gordon because he doesn't want to be there. Not to mention DJ is overpaid and overrated. Lopez gives you almost the same production for half the price (and his FT shooting doesn't make him a liability in the 4th). As a Clippers-hater I hope this doesn't happen.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 05:00 PM
How far do you think a squad of let's say...

CP3
Gordon
Barnes
Griffin
Lopez

6th man: Crawford

could get?

Depends if Gordon is Gordon. I think that team is a contender, but not a guaranteed second round team. Things would need to break favorably for the Clippers like they are now for the Grizzlies.

Showtime Steve
05-13-2013, 05:00 PM
I think the team will package Bledsoe and DJ, at least they should. I might be bias because I was such a huge Gordon fan. Griffin ranks number 1 in the NBA on points in the paint if you combine the last 3 years. I think the bigger issue for us is a center who can hit free throws, defend and hit the occasional jumper. Lopez is a guy who can do that.

Def a package of those two would get more than them solo I feel also. I do believe if Gordon is healthy and keeps weight off, he is a baller. Your points on needing a center to hit shots and ft's is very valid. Even if DJ is worse than Lopez, they have to due a lil more diligence because they should be able to find a lil better than Lopez.

b@llhog24
05-13-2013, 05:01 PM
Sucks for Hill; but that's loyalty for you, huh?

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 05:02 PM
Agree. Clippers need a SG more than the Pelicans need a PG. They already have a good PG in Vasquez who keeps getting better. Is Bledsoe going to come off the bench again? Don't see why the Pelicans do this other than to get rid of the Gordon because he doesn't want to be there. Not to mention DJ is overpaid and overrated. Lopez gives you almost the same production for half the price (and his FT shooting doesn't make him a liability in the 4th). As a Clippers-hater I hope this doesn't happen.

Vasquez is not that good, pause right there, know something about the Pels before you speak on that, he is a slow guard, slow defender, and would be a lot better off the bench.... Bledsoe fixes the defensive problem at PG, and him and Rivers can play well together....

And comparing Jordan and Lopez by stats is unfair, Lopez was used more in the offense as compared to Jordan, Lopez cannot jump, his athleticism is a joke, and his defense is below average. I dont like Jordan's contract but its better than Gordon's in terms of just $$$

I wouldn't mind keeping EG but I do like this deal a lot.

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 05:02 PM
Sucks for Hill; but that's loyalty for you, huh?

He is retiring, his contract makes the deal work

Kyben36
05-13-2013, 05:03 PM
clippers getting gordon back doesnt make sense imo

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 05:03 PM
The Clips are doing what the Seahawks did basically, Seahawks got "injury prone" Harvin to make them over the top.... the Clips are doing the same thing here..

RLundi
05-13-2013, 05:07 PM
I like the deal for both teams. Clips will overpay Gordon but he can be their go-to scorer if need be when Paul is being passive.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 05:09 PM
I like the deal for both teams. Clips will overpay Gordon but he can be their go-to scorer if need be when Paul is being passive.

It's not an overpaid when you are getting rid of an albatross contract to get Gordon who has Dwayne Wade potential. He's basically a poor man's Dwade, which is good.

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 05:10 PM
It's not an overpaid when you are getting rid of an albatross contract to get Gordon who has Dwayne Wade potential. He's basically a poor man's Dwade, which is good.

Wade cannot shoot a three to save his life, Gordon can

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 05:17 PM
Wade cannot shoot a three to save his life, Gordon can

They have pretty similar games regardless. It's why you saw a drop in production from Gordon this year when he was recovering form the knee injury. Less explosion in a game based on it.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 05:18 PM
It's not an overpaid when you are getting rid of an albatross contract to get Gordon who has Dwayne Wade potential. He's basically a poor man's Dwade, which is good.

Um no he isn't. He's had one good season and that was almost 3 years ago. He's also never played a full season. You could argue he's the albatross.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 05:21 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoer01.html

He's had four good years and has only been bad on the Hornets, the time he has been injured and missed a good amount of time recovering from bad knees.

DJ is the albatross. Gordon is a prospect that can only miss if his explosion is gone, which I don't think it is.

Blitzbolt
05-13-2013, 05:23 PM
Bad deal Blesode is great but DJ SUCKS not worth it for that Price.

DJ would kill the Pelicans for years to come not only with his contract but with his play.

lopeZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dj

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 05:27 PM
Its a win for the Pelicans regardless but if Gordon can stay healthy it is also good for them...

And btw, the Pelicans arent chasing a title this season, relax

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 05:30 PM
A little update-

Chris Miles-

@McNamara247 @FletcherMackel just spoke to a source very high up with the Pelicans and he says there has been NO contact with the Clippers

@McNamara247 @FletcherMackel they say the Pels will wait until after the lottery to make a move but have been contacted about draft trades

Blitzbolt
05-13-2013, 05:34 PM
Its a win for the Pelicans regardless but if Gordon can stay healthy it is also good for them...

And btw, the Pelicans arent chasing a title this season, relaxLook at Gordon(the other one) with Detroit bad players and contracts kill every team not just the ones in the playoffs.

DJ is the second worst Center in the NBA behind Perk from OKC.

HouRealCoach
05-13-2013, 05:39 PM
CP3, Griffin, Gordon, Crawford is too much scoring lol

HouRealCoach
05-13-2013, 05:39 PM
Good trade for both

b@llhog24
05-13-2013, 05:50 PM
Look at Gordon(the other one) with Detroit bad players and contracts kill every team not just the ones in the playoffs.

DJ is the second worst Center in the NBA behind Perk from OKC.

You actually think that Hawes is better than DJ? What about the Bobcats C?

RLundi
05-13-2013, 05:54 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoer01.html

He's had four good years and has only been bad on the Hornets, the time he has been injured and missed a good amount of time recovering from bad knees.

DJ is the albatross. Gordon is a prospect that can only miss if his explosion is gone, which I don't think it is.

Four "good" years? What qualifies as good? A PER of 15 is considered average. He's had 3 seasons below or at average PER. If you're going to throw around the name Dwyane Wade, make sure Gordon has had a PER above 20. Just because he's a ball hog doesn't mean he's a good player.

Blitzbolt
05-13-2013, 05:57 PM
You actually think that Hawes is better than DJ? What about the Bobcats C?Well to tell you the true I don't see them play.But from the ones in the playoffs he is the worst even Birdman is playing better then him.

bleedprple&gold
05-13-2013, 05:57 PM
Vasquez is not that good, pause right there, know something about the Pels before you speak on that, he is a slow guard, slow defender, and would be a lot better off the bench.... Bledsoe fixes the defensive problem at PG, and him and Rivers can play well together....

And comparing Jordan and Lopez by stats is unfair, Lopez was used more in the offense as compared to Jordan, Lopez cannot jump, his athleticism is a joke, and his defense is below average. I dont like Jordan's contract but its better than Gordon's in terms of just $$$

I wouldn't mind keeping EG but I do like this deal a lot.

Vasquez 3rd in the league in assists is not good? 14 and 9 is not good? Yes Bledsoe would be an upgrade defensively, but I think Vasquez is a better passer/distributor. They both deserve a lot of playing which they may not get as much if they have to split time at PG.

And yes Lopez is not as athletic as DJ, but that didn't stop him from averaging more points and blocks per game than him. And he is probably just as good a man defender as DJ.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 05:58 PM
Highly efficient scorer (TS percentage) who plays good defense. What's your problem with him, exactly?

He is a hot commodity for most every team in the NBA. Warriors almost traded Klay for him. Clippers want him back. Hornets had to have him in the Chris Paul trade. Suns offered him max.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Having his ceiling be as high as Dwade's is not saying he is as good as Dwade.

Cracka2HI!
05-13-2013, 05:58 PM
I'd love this trade! I hated seeing Gordon go in the CP3 trade but understood it. I'd love to have him back. So what he's coming off injury and been a d-bag since the trade. DJ is well DJ. To swap his contract for Gordon's "bad" contract would be great. Bledsoe has to be moved. Ideally we would move him for a young SG...like Gordon. I wanted the Clipps to find a way to make a run at Lopez last season so I'd be happy to have him too. DJ still has upside and isn't nearly as bad as PSD thinks he is but Lopez is better. We really just need a guy that can be tall, stand close to the hoop and not miss every FT. Lopez can do that!

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 06:00 PM
Vasquez 3rd in the league in assists is not good? 14 and 9 is not good? Yes Bledsoe would be an upgrade defensively, but I think Vasquez is a better passer/distributor. They both deserve a lot of playing which they may not get as much if they have to split time at PG.

And yes Lopez is not as athletic as DJ, but that didn't stop him from averaging more points and blocks per game than him. And he is probably just as good a man defender as DJ.

Any PG has good stats with us, EXAMPLE- Darren Collison... where is he now?

Vasquez is much more suited to be off the bench

b@llhog24
05-13-2013, 06:11 PM
Well to tell you the true I don't see them play.But from the ones in the playoffs he is the worst even Birdman is playing better then him.

Fair enough.

king4day
05-13-2013, 06:13 PM
This deal actually would make sense from both sides. I hope it happens. If I'm a Pelicans fan, I'd be stoked if this went down. You get your PG to build around and will maintain a good defensive bigman duo

RLundi
05-13-2013, 06:21 PM
Highly efficient scorer (TS percentage) who plays good defense. What's your problem with him, exactly?

He is a hot commodity for most every team in the NBA. Warriors almost traded Klay for him. Clippers want him back. Hornets had to have him in the Chris Paul trade. Suns offered him max.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Having his ceiling be as high as Dwade's is not saying he is as good as Dwade.

You've proven repeatedly that your analysis is weak and unsubstantiated. Do you even know anything about statistics? I assumed you did because you posted a link from bkref but you clearly have no idea. "Highly efficient," is that a joke? Why would you even mention TS% in that scenario? Especially since his TS% and eFG% have plummeted every single year? He's had ONE good season and that's it.

Idk where his ceiling is but he's nowhere CLOSE to Wade. His best season is only marginally better than Wade's worst. You think I have a problem with him; I don't. I have a problem with people who don't know what the hell they're talking about, such as yourself.

sunnydayin'zona
05-13-2013, 06:22 PM
Lopez>DJ overall. 16/8/2 PER 36 compared to 13/10/2 PER 36 but Lopez is a lot stronger, more physical and more consistent. He just has a high motor and I think if you put him next to a guy like Griffin who commands doubles and a player like CP3 to create for him.. he will tear it up. Best of all he hits free throws at a great percentage for a center.

More consistent...you're crazy. Lopez fluctuates from looking like trash 80% of the time to looking like a future top 10 center 20% of the time.

But I will say that Lopez looks his best when he's next to an athletic PF who draws most of the attention. His two best years (only good years) were this year (AD) and Amare's last year on the Suns. So I think Lopez could end up working out very well next to Blake.

Note: he isn't good on offense. He just won't be. CP3 can create for him? Well, he had Nash to do that for him every year but this year and it still didn't happen. Also, his motor is questionable. He doesn't care for basketball much, and it can be difficult watching him not try for large parts of the season.

Just my $.02

Blitzbolt
05-13-2013, 06:26 PM
The Problem is DJ's Contract its just terrible Lopez is better then yet DJ is getting pay way more.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 06:28 PM
You've proven repeatedly that your analysis is weak and unsubstantiated. Do you even know anything about statistics? I assumed you did because you posted a link from bkref but you clearly have no idea. "Highly efficient," is that a joke? Why would you even mention TS% in that scenario? Especially since his TS% and eFG% have plummeted every single year? He's had ONE good season and that's it.

Idk where his ceiling is but he's nowhere CLOSE to Wade. His best season is only marginally better than Wade's worst. You think I have a problem with him; I don't. I have a problem with people who don't know what the hell they're talking about, such as yourself.

A career TS percentage of 566, built exactly like Dwade. Efficiency has dropped because his usage rate is Kobe high or Carmelo high. His efficiency will go back up once his knees are fine and they give another legitimate option on scoring. 566 is highly efficient. A reference point, Carmelo is at 560 for this year alone.

Go back to the Clippers, with the weapons they have and a PG they have he'd go back to his 590 TS percentage.

I am not sure you know what the word ceiling means or potential. As in, a chance to be as good or like. Doesn't mean currently or at one point was. It means, you can project his stats to be an extremely high level. And that actually means more once you consider the talent starved position that SG is.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the Suns are wrong. Maybe the Warriors are wrong. Maybe the Pelicans were wrong.

But the stats suggest he is already pretty good and his high athleticism suggest a high ceiling.

MagicBucsSox
05-13-2013, 06:29 PM
How does this help LAC?

Eg is a consistent scorer. Something they don't have

RLundi
05-13-2013, 06:41 PM
A career TS percentage of 566, built exactly like Dwade. Efficiency has dropped because his usage rate is Kobe high or Carmelo high. His efficiency will go back up once his knees are fine and they give another legitimate option on scoring. 566 is highly efficient. A reference point, Carmelo is at 560 for this year alone.

Go back to the Clippers, with the weapons they have and a PG they have he'd go back to his 590 TS percentage.

I am not sure you know what the word ceiling means or potential. As in, a chance to be as good or like. Doesn't mean currently or at one point was. It means, you can project his stats to be an extremely high level. And that actually means more once you consider the talent starved position that SG is.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the Suns are wrong. Maybe the Warriors are wrong. Maybe the Pelicans were wrong.

But the stats suggest he is already pretty good and his high athleticism suggest a high ceiling.

I know exactly what potential is. You're psyching yourself out. What I'm saying, and please pay attention, is he's done nothing to suggest he'd be the all-around player Wade is. Your "potential" argument is silly; I can say Eric Bledsoe has the potential to be Gary Payton if I want to. Who cares? The opinion is meaningless if it's based on NOTHING. Wade is a top 5 SG of all-time. Gordon's not done enough to warrant those comparisons.

Here's more vocabulary: do you know what a trend is? Gordon is trending down in his eFG and TS. What on earth makes you think he's just gonna shoot up to elite-level shooting all of a sudden when he hasn't be there since his rookie season?

The stats suggest he's been pretty good for ONE season when healthy. Can that translate to a career? Who knows. But if one sub-20 PER year is the basis for you to suggest he has Wade-potential, let me stop you right there: it's a very weak argument.

Bruno
05-13-2013, 06:43 PM
theyll get gordon back?

kidding me.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 06:49 PM
I know exactly what potential is. You're psyching yourself out. What I'm saying, and please pay attention, is he's done nothing to suggest he'd be the all-around player Wade is. Your "potential" argument is silly; I can say Eric Bledsoe has the potential to be Gary Payton if I want to. Who cares? The opinion is meaningless if it's based on NOTHING. Wade is a top 5 SG of all-time. Gordon's not done enough to warrant those comparisons.

Here's more vocabulary: do you know what a trend is? Gordon is trending down in his eFG and TS. What on earth makes you think he's just gonna shoot up to elite-level shooting all of a sudden when he hasn't be there since his rookie season?

The stats suggest he's been pretty good for ONE season when healthy. Can that translate to a career? Who knows. But if one sub-20 PER year is the basis for you to suggest he has Wade-potential, let me stop you right there: it's a very weak argument.

Me saying he could be a poor man Dwade based on his athleticism, size, build, play style, and already efficient scoring ability coupled with already great defense is a baseless comparison?

PER values chuckers and guys who take a lot of shots. A quantified box score. It's why a guy like Ellis has a good PER. Take the high TS, good DRAPM any day over a high PER.

Gordon has put up efficient scoring numbers in those sub20 PER years. Low efficiency this year is due to injury. The year before that was because of an increase in usage.

A trend down doesn't predict a further trend down. You are ignoring confounding variables.

There is a reason why NBA circles consider him a can't miss prospect and why most teams consider a centerpiece you can build around.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-13-2013, 06:58 PM
Clippers get a 20 PPG scoring wing and the Clippers can sign a defensive big man with the MLE to upgrade over Robin. Win for them.

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 07:06 PM
Guppy is 100 percent right. Gordon is being crazy,underrated around here.

blastmasta26
05-13-2013, 07:06 PM
Me saying he could be a poor man Dwade based on his athleticism, size, build, play style, and already efficient scoring ability coupled with already great defense is a baseless comparison?

PER values chuckers and guys who take a lot of shots. A quantified box score. It's why a guy like Ellis has a good PER. Take the high TS, good DRAPM any day over a high PER.

Gordon has put up efficient scoring numbers in those sub20 PER years. Low efficiency this year is due to injury. The year before that was because of an increase in usage.

A trend down doesn't predict a further trend down. You are ignoring confounding variables.

There is a reason why NBA circles consider him a can't miss prospect and why most teams consider a centerpiece you can build around.

Except Monta only has a PER of about 16, just above league average.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:06 PM
Me saying he could be a poor man Dwade based on his athleticism, size, build, play style, and already efficient scoring ability coupled with already great defense is a baseless comparison?

PER values chuckers and guys who take a lot of shots. A quantified box score. It's why a guy like Ellis has a good PER. Take the high TS, good DRAPM any day over a high PER.

Gordon has put up efficient scoring numbers in those sub20 PER years. Low efficiency this year is due to injury. The year before that was because of an increase in usage.

A trend down doesn't predict a further trend down. You are ignoring confounding variables.

There is a reason why NBA circles consider him a can't miss prospect and why most teams consider a centerpiece you can build around.

I'm not going over this with you again. Gordon is not Wade and doesn't project to be, if he ever gets healthy.

There's inconsistencies with ALL statistics. Your insistince on TS% is short-sighted and hardly gives you a broad enough picture. And RAPM has inconsistencies as well, as nothing is end-all. Taking account a myriad of factors and options is the best way to ascertain a player's statistical prowess. You haven't done that, choosing instead to focus on the subjectivity of his potential :rolleyes:

Btw, you're dead wrong: PER exposes Ellis.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:08 PM
I'm not going over this with you again. Gordon is not Wade and doesn't project to be, if he ever gets healthy.

There's inconsistencies with ALL statistics. Your insistince on TS% is short-sighted and hardly gives you a broad enough picture. And RAPM has inconsistencies as well, as nothing is end-all. Taking account a myriad of factors and options is the best way to ascertain a player's statistical prowess. You haven't done that, choosing instead to focus on the subjectivity of his potential :rolleyes:


Yes, traditional scouting involves projecting advanced statistics. He has the ability to be as good as Dwayne Wade. That's a projection. We know he can put up good numbers even if he never reaches this potential.

He will be a top three shooting guard at one point in his career.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:10 PM
Guppy is 100 percent right. Gordon is being crazy,underrated around here.

Gordon was overrated before this season. He was once viewed by many on PSD as the third best SG behind Kobe and Wade. Hopefully that was just due to a shortage of decent SGs.

He's done NOTHING since. Yes he's been injured a lot but in maintaining he's so underrated you're actually overrating him.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:14 PM
Gordon was overrated before this season. He was once viewed by many on PSD as the third best SG behind Kobe and Wade. Hopefully that was just due to a shortage of decent SGs.

He's done NOTHING since. Yes he's been injured a lot but in maintaining he's so underrated you're actually overrating him.

I don't know how he is rated by many people and that is pointless to me. Injuries did ruin his season this season and I think a fully healthy Gordon on a Clippers team will do wonders for his efficiency. High enough where he would be the third best SG next year. Wade-Harden-Gordon. Wade and Harden being interchangeable.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:15 PM
Yes, traditional scouting involves projecting advanced statistics. He has the ability to be as good as Dwayne Wade. That's a projection. We know he can put up good numbers even if he never reaches this potential.

He will be a top three shooting guard at one point in his career.

That's YOUR projection, just as long as you understand that.

PS: I love how you mention projecting advanced stats, like his TS and eFG but look the other way concerning the alarming way that he's trending down. Fluctuation happens frequently, but a trend is usually a decent barometer.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:16 PM
That's YOUR projection, just as long as you understand that.

PS: I love how you mention projecting advanced stats, like his TS and eFG but look the other way concerning the alarming way that he's trending down. Fluctuation happens frequently, but a trend is usually a decent barometer.

I think this trend is only worrisome if his knees continue to be a problem. And that may very well be the case.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:19 PM
I don't know how he is rated by many people and that is pointless to me. Injuries did ruin his season this season and I think a fully healthy Gordon on a Clippers team will do wonders for his efficiency. High enough where he would be the third best SG next year. Wade-Harden-Gordon. Wade and Harden being interchangeable.

That just speaks to the absolute dearth of great players at the SG position.

Btw, I'd put Kobe, Wade, Harden all above a fully-healthy Gordon, maybe even Paul George if he's at the 2 next year.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:20 PM
Kobe's career is likely over.

smith&wesson
05-13-2013, 07:22 PM
sick trade for the clippers. when eric gordon was happy in LA he was playing like a boss. then he got injured and has came back but never liked it in new orleans. A change of scenery will really help that guys.

Jarvo
05-13-2013, 07:23 PM
:laugh: Gordon back to LA

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:24 PM
Kobe's career is likely over.

He'll probably be ready by Thanksgiving, certainly by Christmas.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:26 PM
He'll probably be ready by Thanksgiving, certainly by Christmas.

Not with his injury. Most likely will only be go 5 minutes a game.

http://deadspin.com/how-an-achilles-tear-affects-nba-players-or-why-kobe-472944871

Vinny642
05-13-2013, 07:31 PM
People really cannot read..... I already posted two tweets saying that the NO FO hasnt spoken to the Clips and they wont make any deals before lottery

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:35 PM
Not with his injury. Most likely will only be go 5 minutes a game.

http://deadspin.com/how-an-achilles-tear-affects-nba-players-or-why-kobe-472944871

For every source that says he isn't returning, there is another that says he is. He won't play 37 minutes but he certainly won't play 5 either.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:39 PM
It's not a source. It's a breakdown of what happens with tears.

He has a third degree tear.

"The average age for injured players was 29.7, with seven years of playing experience (Kobe's in his 17th year); in the first year back from injury, players played 5.21 fewer minutes per game. That number dropped to 4.42 in the second year back. More tellingly, player efficiency rating (PER) dropped by 4.64 the first year back and 4.28 the second. To understand how severe that drop is, consider: This year, a difference of 4.64 PER is the difference between Kobe Bryant and Ersan Ilyasova."

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:42 PM
Kobe would greatly exceed the drop in minutes on average, but given his age, it's probably expected. I doubt he wants to do that. Probably retires.

LongIslandIcedZ
05-13-2013, 07:46 PM
Kobe is not retiring.

No chance he goes out like that.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 07:47 PM
Not with his injury. Most likely will only be go 5 minutes a game.

http://deadspin.com/how-an-achilles-tear-affects-nba-players-or-why-kobe-472944871


It's not a source. It's a breakdown of what happens with tears.

He has a third degree tear.

"The average age for injured players was 29.7, with seven years of playing experience (Kobe's in his 17th year); in the first year back from injury, players played 5.21 fewer minutes per game. That number dropped to 4.42 in the second year back. More tellingly, player efficiency rating (PER) dropped by 4.64 the first year back and 4.28 the second. To understand how severe that drop is, consider: This year, a difference of 4.64 PER is the difference between Kobe Bryant and Ersan Ilyasova."


The point is, it's hypothetical, as is this:

Speaking exclusively to The Times, Dr. Neal ElAttrache said Sunday that Bryant’s competitive drive and mental toughness will give him an edge in recovering from an injury that figures to sideline him at least six to nine months.

“I can point to all of the scientific aspects of the repair, but just as important if not more important is, who is that Achilles attached to?” said ElAttrache, who performed the hour-long surgery Saturday. “In this situation, it’s attached to Kobe Bryant, who has figured out a way to get through some injuries that would ordinarily be career-threatening. Some of the things he’s had go on with him have ended guys’ careers in the NBA.

Guppyfighter
05-13-2013, 07:50 PM
Kobe isn't superhuman. 35 year olds with this mileage don't come back from this well.

If he was superhuman, the tear wouldn't have happened.

Obviously this doctor wasn't speaking of any actual time he was coming back. He said "well, it doesn't look good if you look at the evidence, but the dude is Kobe ****ing Bryant."

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 08:41 PM
Gordon was overrated before this season. He was once viewed by many on PSD as the third best SG behind Kobe and Wade. Hopefully that was just due to a shortage of decent SGs.

He's done NOTHING since. Yes he's been injured a lot but in maintaining he's so underrated you're actually overrating him.

Serious question.... have you watched Eric Gordon play or are you just boxscore watching? I've maybe missed 20 games of his entire career, how many have you missed? Quite frankly you just sound ignorant about his game. D Wade Lite is a very fair comparison and as somebody who's watched Gordon since day 1 I can vouch for Guppy on that. He's less efficient because he takes more shots from the perimeter and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Most of Wade's offensive damage is the midrange game or slashing to the rim.

Gordon's more offensively like Kevin Durant where it's either 3's or driving to the rim. The reasons Gordon is similar to Wade though are his built, incredible first step explosiveness, incredible ability to finish layups and dunks with contact. Both have similar height to wingspan/reach ratios, similar short and extremely strong/muscular builds. Both have 40 inch verts and thrive at absorbing contact. Both play a physical game to where they are prone to injuries all the time.

The key differences is Wade is a better passer and rebounder while Gordon is a better long range shooter. People seem to be forgetting that Gordon's been pretty much milking it, pouting and tanking the last two years. The last time he was healthy and giving 100 percent was the first 3 months of the 2010-2011 season and do you know what he was putting up? 24/4/5/1.5. On great efficiency and with very good D.

Bottom line is it's idiotic to label him overrated because he's been banged up the last 2 years. He was considered a top 5 UNDERRATED player not long ago and just because people now realize his talent, doesn't mean he's overrated. He's above average at everything for his position and easily one of the most well rounded SG's. He's more well rounded than Harden and his ATROCIOUS, near position worst defense.

Gordon is a guy who can definitely give you something like 25/5 for a couple years or more if he can get his body right and unlike guys like Harden he prides himself on DEFENSE first.

Clippersfan86
05-13-2013, 08:44 PM
People really cannot read..... I already posted two tweets saying that the NO FO hasnt spoken to the Clips and they wont make any deals before lottery

I read it and was annoyed that the very guy who reported it... is now reporting that it DIDN'T happen. Either way it's plausible enough to keep discussing and it's interesting.

RLundi
05-13-2013, 09:30 PM
Not with his injury. Most likely will only be go 5 minutes a game.

http://deadspin.com/how-an-achilles-tear-affects-nba-players-or-why-kobe-472944871


Serious question.... have you watched Eric Gordon play or are you just boxscore watching? I've maybe missed 20 games of his entire career, how many have you missed? Quite frankly you just sound ignorant about his game. D Wade Lite is a very fair comparison and as somebody who's watched Gordon since day 1 I can vouch for Guppy on that.

I have no qualms with saying I've probably seen a total of about 20 of his games. To call it box score watching demonstrates your own glaring ignorance. Advanced statistics are a lot more analytical and summative than just a box score. If your player evaluations and discussion are based solely on your own biased and subjective seeing-eye tests independent of "box score watching," then congratulations, you're only qualified to have discussions on about the estimated 15% of the players in this league that have ever played for the Clippers. On the remaining 350 or so players that you haven't watched "from day 1," please refrain from commenting. Thanks.


He's less efficient because he takes more shots from the perimeter and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Most of Wade's offensive damage is the midrange game or slashing to the rim.

Well no **** Sherlock. The more you miss, the more your efficiency theoretically takes a hit. What are you arguing? That Wade ISN'T more efficient because he takes and makes higher-percentage shots? Brilliance.


Gordon's more offensively like Kevin Durant where it's either 3's or driving to the rim. The reasons Gordon is similar to Wade though are his built, incredible first step explosiveness, incredible ability to finish layups and dunks with contact. Both have similar height to wingspan/reach ratios, similar short and extremely strong/muscular builds. Both have 40 inch verts and thrive at absorbing contact. Both play a physical game to where they are prone to injuries all the time.

The key differences is Wade is a better passer and rebounder while Gordon is a better long range shooter. People seem to be forgetting that Gordon's been pretty much milking it, pouting and tanking the last two years. The last time he was healthy and giving 100 percent was the first 3 months of the 2010-2011 season and do you know what he was putting up? 24/4/5/1.5. On great efficiency and with very good D.

Correction: Wade does nearly EVERYTHING better than Gordon, and yet again advanced statistics confirm this. It's hard to get an accurate reading because EG is always injured, but Wade is a MUCH better rebounder and a MUCH better passer. Gordon for his career has a total of 15 win shares; Wade had 15 win shares one season.

And EG is a better 3-point shooter, no argument there. But what's better: bird crap or dog crap? Gordon is shooting about 33% from 3 his last few healthy seasons. Aside from Gordon's STELLAR 3-point numbers, Wade shoots better than him at every other point on the floor, including 16-23 range, where EG shoots 36% his last 2 relatively healthy seasons, and Wade 41%. So please continue to harp on the fact that Gordon is SO MUCH a better shooter than Wade. Fact of the matter is, his TS%, eFG% and 3-point percentage are the lowest of his career the past 2 years and have steadily dropped since his rookie campaign.


Bottom line is it's idiotic to label him overrated because he's been banged up the last 2 years. He was considered a top 5 UNDERRATED player not long ago and just because people now realize his talent, doesn't mean he's overrated. He's above average at everything for his position and easily one of the most well rounded SG's. He's more well rounded than Harden and his ATROCIOUS, near position worst defense.

Gordon is a guy who can definitely give you something like 25/5 for a couple years or more if he can get his body right and unlike guys like Harden he prides himself on DEFENSE first.

So it's idiotic to judge him because he's been injured? Is it conversely idiotic of you to judge him as being well-rounded and a supposed 25/5 guy since, again, he's been injured? I guess it works only if it's in line with your argument. Cool.

Cracka2HI!
05-13-2013, 10:55 PM
People really cannot read..... I already posted two tweets saying that the NO FO hasnt spoken to the Clips and they wont make any deals before lotteryHere's hoping they do talk. It also said The Pelicans have received calls. The Clipps probably made the call. I hope the Pelicans would listen and like the deal. It seems to make sense for me unless they can get more for Gordon. I'm not sure about that. I'm sure they could get Granger but does that help them more than Bledsoe and DJ? What you posted also said they are waiting until the lottery...not the draft. That's a smart move, it makes sense to wait on planning your off-season until you know what pick you have. I'm hoping there is something to this "rumor".


Kobe would greatly exceed the drop in minutes on average, but given his age, it's probably expected. I doubt he wants to do that. Probably retires.

I'm surprised the consensus is that Bryant is going to come back and be just fine. I don't think that will be the case either. No matter who he is, he is most likely too old to ever be close to the same. Chauncey Billups suffered the same injury and should have retired. On top of his achilles people don't realize the rest of his body is going to start to break down while he can't compete. That's what happened to Chauncey. I know about Bryants work ethic and he's a warrior and all that crap but he's no more competitive than Chauncey. In fact I think it's safe to say that Bryant got a hell of a lot more out his athleticism than Chauncey did.

JeffG20
05-13-2013, 11:02 PM
please let this happen...so sick of Gordon