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View Full Version : Shank asks Ortiz about the juice



bagwell368
05-08-2013, 07:32 AM
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/05/07/red-sox-slugger-david-ortiz-says-hard-work-not-steroids-has-him-torrid-pace/G5lIcF9HOmUYJECJyd9zrO/story.html

Hitting is not this easy. Athletes do not get better as they mature into their late 30s. Baseball has been peppered with performance-enhancing drugs for the last 20 years. The cheaters are always ahead of the testers. A number of players from the Dominican Republic have tested positive for steroids. Injuries to the Achilles’ tendon are consistent with steroid use. It is not natural for a guy to hit .426 out of the gate without the benefit of any spring training.

So David Ortiz knows. He knows he is a suspect. He knows there are people out there who think he’s cheating. His name appeared on a list of players who tested positive for PEDs in 2003. And what he is doing now just doesn’t look possible.

When you cheat at cards, they tell you to lose a couple of hands to make it look good. Ortiz can’t even seem to do that. He just keeps raking. Ortiz Tuesday night extended his hitting streak to 27 games, dating to last July, before he got hurt.

‘My bat speed has been the same since the first day I got here.’

This is an uncomfortable topic, but it’s preferable to question a man face-to-face than to tarnish him by whisper and innuendo. I went to Ortiz Tuesday afternoon in the Sox clubhouse and put some hard questions to him. I told him he looks dirty.

Did he hear the fans in Toronto chanting, “Steroids!’’?

“No, not really,” said Ortiz. “Why?’’

Because what you are doing looks too good to be true.

“They test me all the time,” he said. “They make you pee and they test your blood, too. This year I would say I’ve probably been tested five times, peeing. Blood, just once. That was in spring training. They don’t warn you. They just show up.’’

What it is like to be suspected?

“I don’t think I have been,” he said. “Nobody comes to me and tells me, ‘They suspect you are using steroids.’ ’’

But you fit all the models. You are from the Dominican Republic. You are an older player. Older players don’t get better. You’ve had injuries consistent with steroid use. You showed up on the list from 2003. You fit all the formulas.

“[Expletive], I’m a human being just like everyone else,” said Ortiz. “You can get worse or you can get better. One or the other.’’

But in 2009, you didn’t hit a home run until May 20. Now this. You are Baseball Rambo. What is the difference?

“In 2009, I was coming back from a hand injury [partially torn sheath, left wrist],” he said. “I injured my hand, badly. I tried to come back, but I wasn’t the same. It carried over until my hand started feeling better. I got bad habits from that.

“Once I started feeling better, I went back to be who I was. It wasn’t any different. I went back to hitting homers like I was doing before that. It wasn’t like I started hitting homers after I figured it out in ’09.’’

But it’s like you’re a different hitter now from what you were then (Ortiz hit .238 in 2009).

“Where are you trying to go with this? That’s my question. If you work hard, you’re not supposed to get better?’’

No, but the rest of us don’t get better when we get older. I could touch the rim when I played basketball in high school. I’m not out there throwing down dunks today.

“Basketball is not the same,” said Ortiz. “I don’t forget about hitting the damn fastball. I go up there” — he points to the weight room — “and I bench press 400 pounds. Every other day. If I don’t do it, I’m not going to feel as strong as I am.

“I don’t like to be talking about this steroid thing because people get the wrong idea.’’

But how can your bat speed be better now than it was when you were 34? How do you do that?

“It ain’t better,” he said. “My bat speed has been the same since the first day I got here.

“I just don’t want no misunderstanding ’cause I got no time for this [expletive] right now.’’

But hitting is really hard and you are making it look so easy. No spring training. You are hitting .426.

“It is not easy, bro. My good day, I go 0 for 4. It’s not easy. It just happens.

“We work consistently to get better. I don’t work consistently in the cage every day, I don’t hit every day in batting practice, I don’t watch video every day to get worse. If I want to get worse, or if I’m expecting to get worse, I come here and sit in my chair and 10 minutes before the game I get up.

“No. I get here at 2 o’clock and I have a whole routine like everyone else to do well. One day it’s not going to continue happening and I’m fine with it.’’

Do you understand why people are suspicious?

“I don’t care about what people say, bro. People don’t feed my family. I feed my family.

“You are never going to make everybody happy, bro. That’s the bottom line. If you struggle, it’s bad. If you do well, it’s bad, too.

“I don’t care. I don’t got nothing to hide, bro. Testing is not my problem. Being tested — I ask to go in to get it done. I got no problem with that. I’m not going to screw everything that I have done in my career because I test positive for steroids. That’s not going to happen.

“If I can’t get it done anymore because I can’t get it done? I go home. But not because of that [expletive].

“I guarantee you that later, you are not going to find out that I tested positive for some [expletive]. It’s not happening. Guaranteed. Guaranteed.’’

################################################## ##########

Well, Shank was being pretty fair, except not mentioning the minor league PA's...

The happy days of the first few weeks are drying up. Two hurt closers, 3B that can't get his strike zone in order, SS still wrapping up ST, Felix can't get deep in games, Salty ? meh, and David is juicing...

Now we'll see if it's a real team, or it was an early season chimera.

goshhhjosh
05-08-2013, 08:37 AM
Drew in his last 10 games has been batting around .400. Looks like he's turning a corner.

bagwell368
05-08-2013, 09:47 AM
Drew in his last 10 games has been batting around .400. Looks like he's turning a corner.

Yeah, I pointed that about 3-4 games ago. Still on the season overall, he's been a downer. OTOH WMB is a bigger downer because we have no depth at 3B behind him, even though we've had all sorts of can't miss kids coming up through the system the last 3-4 years. On the positional player side 3B has to be the biggest headache - at least at SS we have D in the system. Oh yeah, we're pretty screwed at 1B too....

Anyhow back to Ortiz.... he stuck his neck out, he must have the cheating down or be clean to say those things.

goshhhjosh
05-08-2013, 10:51 AM
Yeah, I pointed that about 3-4 games ago. Still on the season overall, he's been a downer. OTOH WMB is a bigger downer because we have no depth at 3B behind him, even though we've had all sorts of can't miss kids coming up through the system the last 3-4 years. On the positional player side 3B has to be the biggest headache - at least at SS we have D in the system. Oh yeah, we're pretty screwed at 1B too....

Anyhow back to Ortiz.... he stuck his neck out, he must have the cheating down or be clean to say those things.

Yeah the NESN people have been stating that due to Drew's injury he didn't really have a ST. They were stating that he's just surpassed the AB's he would have had in ST. Oh well.

In regards to WMB, he's been pretty terrible this year at the plate. Aside from the 3 (almost 4) HR game against Toronto, he's been invisible. He K's way too much and can't take a walk to save his life. Sub Mendoza line...yikes. If Bogaerts doesn't stick at SS (assuming he progresses as he is just a prospect) he could be moved to 3B. Also, down in Salem Cecchini has been raking, but they're not going to make an impact for awhile (assuming they pan out.)

On the Ortiz front, I sure hope he isn't juicing, as it would be extremely demoralizing to the fans and the team. I don't think he's juicing, but if I see a fake website pop up (a la Melky Cabrera) I'll be pissed.

MG956
05-08-2013, 12:23 PM
The question that wasn't asked >>> "What exactly are you taking to enhance your performance?"

All of these guys are using everything they can, so what is Ortiz using?

Crucis
05-08-2013, 04:03 PM
The question that wasn't asked >>> "What exactly are you taking to enhance your performance?"

All of these guys are using everything they can, so what is Ortiz using?


Jeeez. So why not just ask "when did you stop hitting your wife?" while you're at it. :eyebrow:

goshhhjosh
05-08-2013, 04:14 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of Shank the Ginger. I've never cared for him as a person or human being. I don't like the fact that he's trying to stir something up. Ortiz as stated has been tested randomly for steroids or PED's and we're assuming that he's passed all of the tests. Unless, Shank has inside information that a positive test is coming down the pipe.

RedSoxtober
05-08-2013, 04:58 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of Shank the Ginger. I've never cared for him as a person or human being. I don't like the fact that he's trying to stir something up. Ortiz as stated has been tested randomly for steroids or PED's and we're assuming that he's passed all of the tests. Unless, Shank has inside information that a positive test is coming down the pipe.

+1. Can't stand the guy. At all.

As for the torrid pace, he wants the best of both worlds. It's a 27-game hitting streak when that's an advantage... or a .427 average when that's an advantage. Have your cake and eat it too.

At any rate, I think we're seeing little more than SSS. In 2005 Clint Barmes hit .410/.467/.639 for the month of April. He was hitless in only 5 of 21 games. This was the season in which he missed a couple months after a fall trying to carry deer meat. He finished .289/.330/.434. Not bad for a 75 OPS+ career hitter but still I think it makes the point: just about anyone can have a hot start.

bagwell368
05-08-2013, 05:49 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of Shank the Ginger. I've never cared for him as a person or human being. I don't like the fact that he's trying to stir something up. Ortiz as stated has been tested randomly for steroids or PED's and we're assuming that he's passed all of the tests. Unless, Shank has inside information that a positive test is coming down the pipe.

I hate Shank, but he's got the goods on this one. It's a valid question. Supposedly the "clear" clears the system inside of 48 hours, so wait around for a day off, and have a quick cycle. Go take a look at a picture of Ortiz and Ramirez before they came here. Huge heads, huge weight gain, massive performance for uptick for Ortiz. Time for Sox fans to stop protecting their heroes because of the laundry.

Ortiz is a Saint to Red Sox fans. But why don't they ponder why his personal trainer was banned by MLB?

bagwell368
05-08-2013, 05:51 PM
just about anyone can have a hot start.

But less do it w/o no spring training, and a few minor league PA's. And fewer have increased in size more than Ortiz from the day he got to the Sox, to 6-7 years later. He wasn't hitting just the iron, and getting thirds at the buffet line (although clearly he passed up few meals).

grandsalami
05-08-2013, 11:02 PM
David Ortiz ‏@davidortiz 28s
End of my hitting streak tonight the season stil going and l hope Dan shaugnessy is a happy man now... Not more 426 enjoy it✌


BOOOM... shaugnessy is a dick

bagwell368
05-09-2013, 06:15 AM
David Ortiz ‏@davidortiz 28s
End of my hitting streak tonight the season stil going and l hope Dan shaugnessy is a happy man now... Not more 426 enjoy it✌


BOOOM... shaugnessy is a dick

A pro athlete can't handle very well founded questions, and the writer is a dick? No, the player has clay feet, and the pink hats are rallying to the colors regardless of the truth.

Amazing, a 20-8 start turns this forum from a graveyard of disappointment, to a gang of sycophants.

Boston-Born
05-09-2013, 08:42 AM
I hate Shank, but he's got the goods on this one. It's a valid question. Supposedly the "clear" clears the system inside of 48 hours, so wait around for a day off, and have a quick cycle. Go take a look at a picture of Ortiz and Ramirez before they came here. Huge heads, huge weight gain, massive performance for uptick for Ortiz. Time for Sox fans to stop protecting their heroes because of the laundry.

Ortiz is a Saint to Red Sox fans. But why don't they ponder why his personal trainer was banned by MLB?


But less do it w/o no spring training, and a few minor league PA's. And fewer have increased in size more than Ortiz from the day he got to the Sox, to 6-7 years later. He wasn't hitting just the iron, and getting thirds at the buffet line (although clearly he passed up few meals).


A pro athlete can't handle very well founded questions, and the writer is a dick? No, the player has clay feet, and the pink hats are rallying to the colors regardless of the truth.

Amazing, a 20-8 start turns this forum from a graveyard of disappointment, to a gang of sycophants.

It seems you have had it out for Ortiz the past two years because he has outplayed your personal projections for him. Not trying to call you out, but it just seems pretty obvious. You have called for his decline for two years in a row, and no doubt it should have come, but he has out performed it. And now it seems you are looking for reasons why to justify your previous stance.

I am by no way saying he isn't juicing or gaining some sort of advantage, but I think we can agree we are happy with it as long as it doesn't come back to hurt the club.

bagwell368
05-09-2013, 11:48 AM
It seems you have had it out for Ortiz the past two years because he has outplayed your personal projections for him.

Check your facts. Ortiz has outplayed his FG WAR $ once in the last five full seasons. Not very stellar is it?

My belief in my abilities to judge baseball (using the written results here) is far beyond being wrong in some cases - which clearly does not apply here. Have at my POV's, just be ready for me to have at yours.


Not trying to call you out, but it just seems pretty obvious.

What? That you're wrong, or that your an Ortiz ball washer?


You have called for his decline for two years in a row, and no doubt it should have come, but he has out performed it.

Outperformed what? He was hitting well last year, then missed a ton of games - for which he was still paid for, and in fact DID not earn his money last year. You claim a hitter missing 72 games in a year is a good thing?

He's already missed games this year, and I expect he'll miss more, many have him at missing more this year than last year.


And now it seems you are looking for reasons why to justify your previous stance.

I brought up a piece by a well known Boston sports writer. You say I have an agenda? Fine, what's your agenda? Using innuendo to poke at someone with an opinion you don't like? What's your excuse/shield? You're a fan of the Red Sox - oh well, of course, sorry..... GMaFB.


I am by no way saying he isn't juicing or gaining some sort of advantage, but I think we can agree we are happy with it as long as it doesn't come back to hurt the club.

In the real world that's a perfectly reasonable POV. Too bad you can't accept someone digging into Ortiz. He's a public figure in a public occupation. He gets to face difficult questions as anyone else would. To think or believe otherwise is to be a homer.

BTW, do create a list of hitters of about Ortiz's height and weight at this age before the steroid era and tell me how many were hitting this well this late in their career? Doesn't anybody think that this is odd? Angel Presinal might have something to say (MLB banned trainer Ortiz used to use).

Boston-Born
05-09-2013, 12:39 PM
Check your facts. Ortiz has outplayed his FG WAR $ once in the last five full seasons. Not very stellar is it?

Did I say WAR or did I say your projections?

My belief in my abilities to judge baseball (using the written results here) is far beyond being wrong in some cases - which clearly does not apply here. Have at my POV's, just be ready for me to have at yours.


What? That you're wrong, or that your an Ortiz ball washer?

Never been an Ortiz ball washer. This has nothing to do with what/how I feel about Ortiz. It's about my perception of how you have a blatantly negative opinion of him.

Outperformed what? He was hitting well last year, then missed a ton of games - for which he was still paid for, and in fact DID not earn his money last year. You claim a hitter missing 72 games in a year is a good thing?

Again, I said your projections, not his actual value in terms of WAR

He's already missed games this year, and I expect he'll miss more, many have him at missing more this year than last year.

We get it, you think Ortiz will under perform this year....

I brought up a piece by a well known Boston sports writer. You say I have an agenda? Fine, what's your agenda? Using innuendo to poke at someone with an opinion you don't like? What's your excuse/shield? You're a fan of the Red Sox - oh well, of course, sorry..... GMaFB.

You brought up a piece by a hack. A Boston sports writer who is out to make a name for himself with shock value and personal agenda issues. Buy his book? How was it?

In the real world that's a perfectly reasonable POV. Too bad you can't accept someone digging into Ortiz. He's a public figure in a public occupation. He gets to face difficult questions as anyone else would. To think or believe otherwise is to be a homer.

BTW, do create a list of hitters of about Ortiz's height and weight at this age before the steroid era and tell me how many were hitting this well this late in their career? Doesn't anybody think that this is odd? Angel Presinal might have something to say (MLB banned trainer Ortiz used to use).

Again, I don't know how hard this is to comprehend... I am not saying he isn't using. This all started with the fact you seem to have it out for Ortiz. For all we know he is using, and Clay is using sunscreen, and the bullpen guys are stealing the catchers signs..... I don't care about that part of this and I never have. I was stating your obvious distaste for Ortiz. Plain and simple.


Responses in bold

AI
05-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Not really a fan of Shank, actually, I can't stand the guy. He's always trying to stir something up.

bagwell368
05-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Did I say WAR or did I say your projections?

My arguments against Ortiz has been his value. I've written much less on projections than value since 2010 re: Ortiz.


Never been an Ortiz ball washer. This has nothing to do with what/how I feel about Ortiz. It's about my perception of how you have a blatantly negative opinion of him.

My opinion on Ortiz is founded on baseball history re aging of hitters, and Ortiz's own notable decline since 2007 - with one outlier year. That's not at all good is it? So I should be blatantly supporting Ortiz due to the color of his uniform and his heroic past? Not so much.


Again, I said your projections, not his actual value in terms of WAR

So produce these projections, go ahead. It won't change one word of what I've written about him, or how I expect him to fail to meet his contract with results.


We get it, you think Ortiz will under perform this year....

No one can deny that you're quick! However, do learn to use quotes if you don't mind.


You brought up a piece by a hack. A Boston sports writer who is out to make a name for himself with shock value and personal agenda issues. Buy his book? How was it?

Which book? The Francona book? If so: That book was very mild and protective of the players Francona liked - Ortiz among them. Trying to wrap that book around Shank as some negative proves how much bias you have, and how much you don't know.


Again, I don't know how hard this is to comprehend... I am not saying he isn't using.

OK, so you are saying anything Ortiz does is fine with you unless he gets caught? What a thrilling and upstanding position to have. Do you go around teaching these "morals" to others? My pity to them in advance.


This all started with the fact you seem to have it out for Ortiz.

No this all started with your opinion that I have it out for Ortiz, and posted this thread to push that agenda. You go ahead and prove it. Then if you do, go ahead and prove posting the truth about Ortiz even if it is negative is somehow wrong. Seldom has so much been made out of nothing on PSD. Reminds me of a "North Country" 40 post battle over Ellsburys first few years OBP should be counted vs ML stats and not AL because AL made him look bad.


For all we know he is using, and Clay is using sunscreen, and the bullpen guys are stealing the catchers signs..... I don't care about that part of this and I never have.

The ends justify the means...


I was stating your obvious distaste for Ortiz. Plain and simple.

Could you come up with something else to actually make it look like you have something? It's just so pathetic...

AI
05-09-2013, 03:15 PM
Well Bags, I think it's impossible for a full time DH to earn a contract of Papi's magnitud given that ALL of his value comes from the bat alone. However, what Ortiz got is market value for the best DH in baseball and arguably of all time. The Rangers where prepared to make a bigger 2 year offer had Papi hit FA. As a hitter, if he stays healthy, he is well worth his contract regardless of what WAR$ say, atleast that is my opinion.

bagwell368
05-09-2013, 04:10 PM
Well Bags, I think it's impossible for a full time DH to earn a contract of Papi's magnitud given that ALL of his value comes from the bat alone. However, what Ortiz got is market value for the best DH in baseball and arguably of all time.

Best, no: Edgar, Thome, Frank better. Top 5 - probably.


The Rangers where prepared to make a bigger 2 year offer had Papi hit FA.

That was said to be a rumor started by Ortiz's agent AFAIK.


As a hitter, if he stays healthy, he is well worth his contract regardless of what WAR$ say, at least that is my opinion.

Well, it depends, he was on his way last year, but failed, he's on his way now, and time will tell. Given his popularity with so many fans it's defensible on that basis alone, but, as a player?

BTW, he well outhit his FG WAR $ in the past, but hasn't been as great since 2007. It's a simple fact.

AI
05-09-2013, 04:24 PM
He hasn't been elite in a while but he's been solid and a steady middle of the order hitter.

Take Ortiz out this year and we'd be in massive problems.

bagwell368
05-09-2013, 04:51 PM
He hasn't been elite in a while but he's been solid and a steady middle of the order hitter.

Take Ortiz out this year and we'd be in massive problems.

The same could be said for Lester, Buchholz, Napoli, Pedroia, Nava, and a few others.

RedSoxtober
05-09-2013, 06:05 PM
But less do it w/o no spring training, and a few minor league PA's. And fewer have increased in size more than Ortiz from the day he got to the Sox, to 6-7 years later. He wasn't hitting just the iron, and getting thirds at the buffet line (although clearly he passed up few meals).
Meh, I still don't think it's more than SSS. 15 game hit streak in the middle of the season raising your average from .270 to .305 and no one blinks an eye. It's eye popping only because of when it happened.

As for no ST? Not really worried about that. Some guys have placed themselves on Opening Day rosters by having similar numbers with a similarly small prep time.

Could Ortiz do it? I think you judge a lot of his build up from his physical appearance. The switch in diet and exercise due to physical problem (my guess was pre-diabetic) resulted in a pretty well toned Ortiz last year. I think that's helped pretty dramatically.

BTW, he hit .405/.457/.726 LAST April before fading.

He's also hit .342/.436/.588 (2011) and .359/.463/.706 (2012) at Fenway the last two years. Considering he played 2/3 of his games at home there may be FAR more correlation to location. Queue up Bull Durham for the difference between .350 and .410 over such a small number of PAs.


A pro athlete can't handle very well founded questions, and the writer is a dick? No, the player has clay feet, and the pink hats are rallying to the colors regardless of the truth.

Amazing, a 20-8 start turns this forum from a graveyard of disappointment, to a gang of sycophants.

No, the writer is a dick. Period. It's got nothing to do with his questions, well founded or otherwise.


@Boston-Born: Shank is not a hack in the way you're trying to pass him off. He's an *** and he is certainly concerned about his Sox-related book. However, he's had other books in the past. Probably penned some of those books before you were born. He's been at the Globe for what, 40yrs? All that to say he's not building a name for himself. This is who he is (or who he's paid to be).

bagwell368
05-09-2013, 07:54 PM
Very nice, but the facts remain:

He flunked a test
His trainer was banned by MLB
He's putting up unusual numbers for a player his age
He's suffered injuries that are linked to usage of PEDS

Writers have gone to town on much less.

Edit Add: According to what I've seeing on the 4 letter network and print journalists outside of this market, Shank is getting a tremendous amount of support if not love. Don't try that Journalists stick together argument, Shank has made quite a few enemies, yet, an objective, non Red Sox fan infused mind can at least see the very reasonable questions that exist. They exist because of Ortiz himself, not some Yankee or Shank evil plot.

RedSoxtober
05-10-2013, 11:49 AM
I understand why it's reasonable to ask the questions. I also see why it's not impossible to believe otherwise. Until it's proven to the contrary I'm willing to accept the fact that he's within a few hits of his normal home production over the last couple of seasons and nearly spot-on his April performance from a year ago. When his season ends up like the one he had a year ago (possibly including the injury) this will be a complete non-issue.

bagwell368
05-10-2013, 12:08 PM
I understand why it's reasonable to ask the questions. I also see why it's not impossible to believe otherwise. Until it's proven to the contrary I'm willing to accept the fact that he's within a few hits of his normal home production over the last couple of seasons and nearly spot-on his April performance from a year ago. When his season ends up like the one he had a year ago (possibly including the injury) this will be a complete non-issue.

Sold.... IF.... Ortiz has a normal age decline thrown in... :eyebrow:

bagwell368
05-10-2013, 06:44 PM
Ortiz attacks:

“Yesterday, the guy came to see me and asked some questions about steroids, and when you see the writing, it basically focuses on the fact that I’m Dominican and that many Dominicans have been caught using steroids. And what about the Americans?” Ortiz said.

“If you’re from the Middle East, because there are some people there who put bombs and terrorize civilians, I have to see you like that, as well? If you are a white American, I have to call you a racist because white Americans were in the Ku Klux Klan?

“The thing that stung me was his statement about Dominicans. You mean that in Dominican Republic there are no players who try to do things right? We are all in the same boat. And the people here who have been caught, does that put everyone here in the same boat?”

################################################## ##############

Nice going Ortiz. How about the fact that HGH and juice is not regulated in the Dominican, and people not from there, go there to get treatments and products. Nothing like going for the lowest common denominator/attack by crying racism. Ortiz has made a living since 2007 of claiming he's underpaid, under appreciated, etc.

Ortiz is one of those expansive personalities that ends up believing his own myths about himself. It wouldn't surprise me that he's caught, and still won't admit it.

JPBoston
05-11-2013, 04:46 AM
Ortiz attacks:

Ortiz is one of those expansive personalities that ends up believing his own myths about himself. It wouldn't surprise me that he's caught, and still won't admit it.

Agreed.

But he HAS been caught, and still won't admit it. ;)

Boston-Born
05-11-2013, 11:14 AM
Ortiz attacks:

“Yesterday, the guy came to see me and asked some questions about steroids, and when you see the writing, it basically focuses on the fact that I’m Dominican and that many Dominicans have been caught using steroids. And what about the Americans?” Ortiz said.

“If you’re from the Middle East, because there are some people there who put bombs and terrorize civilians, I have to see you like that, as well? If you are a white American, I have to call you a racist because white Americans were in the Ku Klux Klan?

“The thing that stung me was his statement about Dominicans. You mean that in Dominican Republic there are no players who try to do things right? We are all in the same boat. And the people here who have been caught, does that put everyone here in the same boat?”

################################################## ##############

Nice going Ortiz. How about the fact that HGH and juice is not regulated in the Dominican, and people not from there, go there to get treatments and products. Nothing like going for the lowest common denominator/attack by crying racism. Ortiz has made a living since 2007 of claiming he's underpaid, under appreciated, etc.

Ortiz is one of those expansive personalities that ends up believing his own myths about himself. It wouldn't surprise me that he's caught, and still won't admit it.

More of the same....

bagwell368
05-11-2013, 11:35 AM
More of the same....

I agree, Ortiz continues with bloviating his whiny persecution complex....

AI
05-11-2013, 05:55 PM
Well, he wouldn't have to be whiny if the Boston media weren't such douchebags. That's why Speier is the man, all of his articles are intelligent and mostly about baseball, he does backgrounds on where the player grew up and I enjoy reading everything he writes. Shank on the other hand, is always trying to be controversial and now Ortiz who was raking, is having to deal with a lot of nonsense and having to answer unnecessary questions about "juicing".

sawxfan
05-11-2013, 06:06 PM
Sorry, but I completely agree with Ortiz. Bringing up the fact that he is Dominican has nothing to do with Ortiz taking or not taking steroids. Ortiz lives in the U.S. and plays in the MLB, which have different rules than the DR and I think the guy understands that. I also don't get how his hot start gives any cause for concern. It's based on 60-70 PA's, I simply don't see how you can use such a small sample size to show any correlation.

Heatcheck
05-11-2013, 06:14 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of Shank the Ginger. I've never cared for him as a person or human being. I don't like the fact that he's trying to stir something up. Ortiz as stated has been tested randomly for steroids or PED's and we're assuming that he's passed all of the tests. Unless, Shank has inside information that a positive test is coming down the pipe.

No one gets cut at 28 for not having enough power, and then becomes an allstar because of his power. to be fair, they probably all or most of them do it.

bagwell368
05-11-2013, 10:12 PM
Well, he wouldn't have to be whiny if the Boston media weren't such douchebags.

Ortiz has tried to manipulate fans and the FO via the media, more than a few times, guess he doesn't think they are douchebags when he can use them. BTW, the media didn't tell him to burst into TF's post game meeting and beach about losing a RBI.


That's why Speier is the man, all of his articles are intelligent and mostly about baseball, he does backgrounds on where the player grew up and I enjoy reading everything he writes. Shank on the other hand, is always trying to be controversial and now Ortiz who was raking, is having to deal with a lot of nonsense and having to answer unnecessary questions about "juicing".

Speier is a well know Ortiz lapdog, try Minihane for 5/22/12:

"I don't get no respect. Not from the media. Not from the front office. What I do is never the right thing. It's always hiding, for somebody to find out."

- David Ortiz

I sometimes wonder if David Ortiz is legitimately delusional.

Forget the game-winners in the 2004 ALCS, forget the 54 homers in 2006, forget, even, the barrage of blasts over the past couple of years during a curious late-career resurgence that has seen the 36-year-old reemerge as one of the handful of best power hitters in baseball.

None qualify as David Ortiz's greatest hit.

That has always been the no respect card. He's played it time and time again over his career with the Sox and broke it out for another spin on Monday night.

Ortiz was asked after Monday's 8-6 win over the Orioles - a win that saw the Sox get to .500 and also included a titanic Ortiz homer off of Tommy Hunter in the sixth inning, his 10th of the season - about the perception of lack of leadership on this team. Ortiz, you remember, called a players-only meeting on May 11 that reportedly included hitters challenging pitchers to step up.

The Sox have won nine of 11 games since the meeting and it sure seems that Ortiz would like a couple of attaboys for showing a little initative.

"Well, let me tell you, I was reading an article [that] talked about the leaders people call 'leaders' in this town," Ortiz told ESPNBoston.com. "Basically, it seems like no matter what you do, it's not good enough. … And you can only call leaders the guys who are out diving for balls on the field or calling pitches behind the plate?"

So Ortiz wants us to look at him as a leader of this team, just as many did with Jason Varitek and do now with Dustin Pedroia (and it's pretty obvious those were the "guys" he was referring to in the previous quote). I'm not sure making the case directly to the media is the best way to prove that he's Lou Gehrig 2.0 - something about actions speaking louder than words - but Ortiz has always used the media to throw pity parties for himself over the years.

And we return to disrespect. David Ortiz is having a tremendous season. He ranks second in the AL in slugging, third in OPS, fourth in batting average, sixth in RBI and eighth in home runs. In the Everyone Not Named Josh Hamilton Department, Ortiz has been as good a hitter as any in baseball this season and is the unquestioned MVP of this team with a quarter of the season in the books.

Does anyone not agree with that? Have you read anything even remotely close to negative when it comes to the performance of Ortiz this season? You haven't, because it doesn't exist. Ortiz isn't pissed about media coverage this season, he's still stewing about what was written in April 2010. At that time, he was coming off a 2009 season that included a .238 batting average and a .794 OPS, both easily career-lows in Boston. And in April 2010 Ortiz hit .143 with one homer in 56 at-bats.

To me, it was reasonable to speculate that maybe - maybe - Ortiz was done as an A-list slugger. Two sub-par seasons (he hit 23 homers in 109 games in 2008) plus a lousy April plus 33 years old plus a PED history made that all perfectly legitimate speculation. But Ortiz - who has been terrific since, really almost as good as he was at his peak - is used to being treated with kid gloves by the media and ownership and is hugely sensitive to anything even close to criticism. So his natural reaction, his default, is to let us all know how disrespected he feels. And when you've been in Boston for 10 years and light critical reaction sets you off every single time, it might be time to grow up a little.

The media doesn't respect him? Really? Again, find me all the critical pieces on Ortiz over the years. The media gave him an absolute free pass on the steroid stuff, closed their eyes and collectively walked away from it. And you know why? They like Ortiz - he's jokes around with them in the locker room and is always accessible. It's that simple. And now we are reading stories about Ortiz's remarkable late-career production that never mention his PED history. I mean, if the media truly didn't respect Ortiz wouldn't there be a lot more speculation as to how Ortiz has a 1.019 OPS at age 36?

(Oh, forget it. NESN.com has gone Woodward and Bernstein on me, right when I wasn't looking. Here's the headline from this morning: "Mike Aviles, David Ortiz Credit Healthy Diets for Continued Success This Season." Here's one highlight -- "Red Sox designated hitter David Ortiz has taken a cue on adhering to a diet as well. In an attempt to reduce his cholesterol –– and avoid taking medicine –– the 36-year-old trimmed roughly 20 pounds by cutting out alcohol and munching on more vegetables." Sold. Didn't we used to read this stuff about guys back in 1998 with no irony?)

And Ortiz is equally transparent when knocking the front office. Disrespect means only getting paid $14.5 million this season to DH. Ortiz wanted a multi-year deal, the Sox said no. They could have given him a four-year contract and he'd still complain about being screwed in the past. And it seems the rest of baseball passed too, or Ortiz would have signed somewhere else for the three-year deal he wanted. Does the rest of baseball disrespect him, too?

Ownership has paid David Ortiz over $80 million bucks to be disrespected over the last 10 years. They stood by him during the steroid stuff, said they believed his story. Whatever else they need to do to placate Ortiz, chances are that it will be done. And it still won't be enough.

David Ortiz has been worth every nickel of that $80 million and he's carrying this Red Sox team in 2012. Maybe he's a leader on this team and maybe he isn't, but he'd be best served to keep hitting and leave his greatest hit on the shelf.

##############################################


That's the real Ortiz boys and girls.....

bagwell368
05-11-2013, 10:17 PM
Sorry, but I completely agree with Ortiz. Bringing up the fact that he is Dominican has nothing to do with Ortiz taking or not taking steroids. Ortiz lives in the U.S. and plays in the MLB, which have different rules than the DR and I think the guy understands that. I also don't get how his hot start gives any cause for concern. It's based on 60-70 PA's,

Ortiz lives in the Dominican, and travels there frequently, and that's where his trainer that was banned by MLB was based.


I simply don't see how you can use such a small sample size to show any correlation.

Add the sample size to his age and his fat belly, than try doing some historical research, maybe it will dawn on you then.

sawxfan
05-12-2013, 03:23 AM
Ortiz lives in the Dominican, and travels there frequently, and that's where his trainer that was banned by MLB was based.



Add the sample size to his age and his fat belly, than try doing some historical research, maybe it will dawn on you then.

Your obvious dislike of Papi is clouding your ability to think objectively. While I think that he very well may be dirty, the things Shaughnessy brought up don't PROVE squat. Until we see him fail a drug test, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

You really should tone down your anger at times, all that stress over BS that has nothing to do with you can't be good. I mean this, I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer.

sawxfan
05-12-2013, 03:39 AM
There are plenty of guys that have done okay at Ortiz's age, but of course they tend break down. Believe me, I know. One example, look at Pete Rose's year when he was 40. Statistically improbable doesn't mean the same as statistically impossible.

bagwell368
05-12-2013, 05:20 AM
Your obvious dislike of Papi is clouding your ability to think objectively. While I think that he very well may be dirty, the things Shaughnessy brought up don't PROVE squat. Until we see him fail a drug test, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Pot meet kettle.

When Watergate was first investigated, nobody had proven squat either. It's ridiculous to demand that a writer have a soup to nuts case against someone that the write about. If what Shank did was against the law, you can bet Ortiz would be engaged in legal proceedings against him, not trying to use the media again for spin control, like any good sleight of hand artist to confound the audience.


You really should tone down your anger at times, all that stress over BS that has nothing to do with you can't be good. I mean this, I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer.

Anger? There are a lot of Red Sox/Ortiz fans that need the kick of an elephant to feel the wings of a passing insect. Do you actually think I'm stressed out about this? Please. I just like to drive game to ground. Wisenheimer away. Next time address the charges made by Minhane.

bagwell368
05-12-2013, 05:25 AM
There are plenty of guys that have done okay at Ortiz's age, but of course they tend break down. Believe me, I know. One example, look at Pete Rose's year when he was 40. Statistically improbable doesn't mean the same as statistically impossible.

Plenty? Here is the criteria:

Meh career before age 27
Three years of increasing excellence at age 34, 35, 36 (IE OPS+ 137, 154, 172)

I'll settle for 5 - all time

Boston-Born
05-12-2013, 05:50 PM
Your obvious dislike of Papi is clouding your ability to think objectively. While I think that he very well may be dirty, the things Shaughnessy brought up don't PROVE squat. Until we see him fail a drug test, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

You really should tone down your anger at times, all that stress over BS that has nothing to do with you can't be good. I mean this, I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

bagwell368
05-12-2013, 06:37 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

And I'm not surprised you can't/won't answer simple questions and/or respond to legitimate journalists I've posted.

There are far more Ortiz uber alles ballwashers here than people with any objectivity on the topic of Oritz. Funny for folks like that to claim others have bias, and then so disappointing AND YET TYPICAL, that they can't bother to offer an actual argument, just a hit an run opinions. Why is that? If they spend time looking, then their hero's clay feet will become obvious? Did you even bother to read post #33? Or was that just too much effort.

Pathetic.

Boston-Born
05-12-2013, 07:53 PM
And I'm not surprised you can't/won't answer simple questions and/or respond to legitimate journalists I've posted.

There are far more Ortiz uber alles ballwashers here than people with any objectivity on the topic of Oritz. Funny for folks like that to claim others have bias, and then so disappointing AND YET TYPICAL, that they can't bother to offer an actual argument, just a hit an run opinions. Why is that? If they spend time looking, then their hero's clay feet will become obvious? Did you even bother to read post #33? Or was that just too much effort.

Pathetic.

Too much effort.

bagwell368
05-12-2013, 08:05 PM
Too much effort.

I applaud your honesty. You won't mind if I don't take what you say on this topic seriously any longer, would you?

AI
05-12-2013, 10:06 PM
Bags legitimate journalists can write about whatever they want, but until he fails a drug test I'm not going to believe anything that is written, it's all pure "speculation" as far as I'm concerned.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 06:19 AM
Bags legitimate journalists can write about whatever they want, but until he fails a drug test I'm not going to believe anything that is written, it's all pure "speculation" as far as I'm concerned.

He did. He consorted with a trainer that was so far off the reservation that he was banned for life from MLB. That's a heck of a vantage point to speculate from. Until the last 2 years MLB testing was a joke, and the cheaters are still ahead of the testers.

I'm also talking about his behavior after he gets his nose out of joint. I.E. casting himself as the aggrieved party, and circling the wagons, in particular when he's clearly wrong and can't seem to see how pathetic he looks.

SoxPatsCeltsBs
05-13-2013, 08:00 AM
Ortiz is batting .179 this month....Juice must've worn off! Ok, in all seriousness, Ortiz started off facing 3 teams in the bottom half of team batting average against. He didn't face any dominant starters/relievers in that period. I would just say it's a bit of a lucky streak.

RedSoxtober
05-13-2013, 09:47 AM
Nice going Ortiz. How about the fact that HGH and juice is not regulated in the Dominican, and people not from there, go there to get treatments and products. Nothing like going for the lowest common denominator/attack by crying racism. Ortiz has made a living since 2007 of claiming he's underpaid, under appreciated, etc.

Ortiz is one of those expansive personalities that ends up believing his own myths about himself. It wouldn't surprise me that he's caught, and still won't admit it.

Bags, I understand the validity of the questions and all but seriously, Shank is the one who threw this down.

Opening paragraph:
" The cheaters are always ahead of the testers. A number of players from the Dominican Republic have tested positive for steroids."

Just in case you missed the Dominican connection:
"But you fit all the models. You are from the Dominican Republic. You are an older player. Older players don’t get better. You’ve had injuries consistent with steroid use. You showed up on the list from 2003. You fit all the formulas."

Shank is not saying anything about players who travel to the DR. He explicitly indicts players from the DR. It was an intentional link; he made it twice in the article. Not only does Shank note a connection he even goes so far as go say that being from the DR is "part of the formula." Whether he's guilty or not, Ortiz is correct on this point and he was NOT the one who made the race connection.

BTW, May is shaping up to be as similar a comparison to 2012 as April was. It's even got an appropriate decline to allow for age-based decline. The talk of cheating was instigated primarily by his hot start and I'll contend again that it was simply SSS.

Celticsfan2007
05-13-2013, 10:27 AM
He did. He consorted with a trainer that was so far off the reservation that he was banned for life from MLB. That's a heck of a vantage point to speculate from. Until the last 2 years MLB testing was a joke, and the cheaters are still ahead of the testers.

I'm also talking about his behavior after he gets his nose out of joint. I.E. casting himself as the aggrieved party, and circling the wagons, in particular when he's clearly wrong and can't seem to see how pathetic he looks.

Bags, first off how would you have proffered Ortiz respond to a journalist trolling him? Put yourself in his shoes and explain to me what would have been the appropriate response.

Secondly, the fact that you wrote the above bolded shows that your mind is already made up on the Ortiz juicing subject. Hence why no one is going to legitimately debate this subject with you. This is similar to the Rondo topic if you ask me, you are letting your hatred for the man cloud you objectivity within the subject once again.

I personally think Ortiz HAS juiced at least once in his MLB career, but this article by shank has no evidence other than typical journalistic accusations. Moving on...

Wait until the guy tests positive if you wanna revisit this topic and bury him there.

RedSoxtober
05-13-2013, 11:13 AM
I won't completely dismiss the possibility that Ortiz juiced in the past. The failed test ALMOST A DECADE AGO certainly suggests that it may have happened even taking into account false positives and the suggestion about some tainted legal stuff (forget the issue).

However, I think a bit too much about the production increase at age 28 for a few reasons.

First, the Sox picked up Ortiz (reportedly at Pedro's urging) heading into his age 27 season. It was also the point in his career that his arb value was about to spike. It was no surprise that the always-cost-conscious Twins cut a guy like that considering that he did not play full time. They had plenty of power from Mourneau and Mauer and chose to put the money elsewhere.

In his age 27 season Ortiz went 16PA/HR. At age 28 it was closer to 14. Nice improvement but not altogether unprecedented considering that he (a) beat Jeremy Giambi for the full time DH gig and (b) just entered baseball prime. In other words, simultaneous with the ages at which he was expected to have his peak production at the plate he also became a daily fixture in the lineup. Regular reps (esp not sitting vs LHP) and peak production. Dismiss or discount this if you like but I think both points are ones referenced frequently enough around here to have some validity. Seems like a reasonable explanation for a production spike.

The production drop at ages 32-34 can also be reasonably explained by the well publicized wrist injury and the loss of Manny behind him. However, even these "valley years" still produced two seasons with 124+ OPS+. Not terrible. I don't know how long it takes a hitter to get over a wrist injury and/or the bad habits developed to compensate for it. I think the results say something about it.

I agree with CF above; I won't be surprised to find that he juiced when it was prevalent in the game. That's not the discussion here though. The question is whether he IS using PED NOW. A dated failed drug test may raise some questions but it is not significant enough to convict him of anything in 2013.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 11:16 AM
Bags, I understand the validity of the questions and all but seriously, Shank is the one who threw this down.

Opening paragraph:
" The cheaters are always ahead of the testers. A number of players from the Dominican Republic have tested positive for steroids."

Just in case you missed the Dominican connection:
"But you fit all the models. You are from the Dominican Republic. You are an older player. Older players donít get better. Youíve had injuries consistent with steroid use. You showed up on the list from 2003. You fit all the formulas."

Shank is not saying anything about players who travel to the DR. He explicitly indicts players from the DR. It was an intentional link; he made it twice in the article. Not only does Shank note a connection he even goes so far as go say that being from the DR is "part of the formula." Whether he's guilty or not, Ortiz is correct on this point and he was NOT the one who made the race connection.

BTW, May is shaping up to be as similar a comparison to 2012 as April was. It's even got an appropriate decline to allow for age-based decline. The talk of cheating was instigated primarily by his hot start and I'll contend again that it was simply SSS.

I'll have to find out, but if the % of Domincan players bagged using is higher then the US born players there is an issue. Certainly enough of an issue to do a Q&A with Ortiz, and print the comments as well as the background.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 11:26 AM
Bags, first off how would you have proffered Ortiz respond to a journalist trolling him? Put yourself in his shoes and explain to me what would have been the appropriate response.

People in the media need to handle things they don't like. Ortiz isn't very good at it, and makes himself a target. As for me, not sure. What about you?


Secondly, the fact that you wrote the above bolded shows that your mind is already made up on the Ortiz juicing subject. Hence why no one is going to legitimately debate this subject with you.

Nice try. It's bolded because I want to draw attention to those passages. Why do you do the same, and carry around comments by PSD posters in your sig from months ago? Lots of people including you are trying to engage me on this topic, so I'm not sure what you mean by "no on is going to legitimately debate this subject with you".


This is similar to the Rondo topic if you ask me, you are letting your hatred for the man cloud you objectivity within the subject once again.

Sorry, I don't hate Rondo. I am very frustrated by his fans that refuse to admit the truth about him. Why should anyone believe what you say since you've got two of my quotes in your sig from at least 10 weeks ago? Your hatred and bias against me expressed forcibly in the Rondo threads at least a dozen times the past few months obviates any opinion or claim you have against me - or it should. See how that works?


I personally think Ortiz HAS juiced at least once in his MLB career, but this article by shank has no evidence other than typical journalistic accusations. Moving on...

Oh, I guess you told me.... Ortiz bothers me because of his persecution complex that he's parlayed into a large contract. Further his fans irritate me because good god don't I realize that he was a god in 2003-2007? I do realize that, but, he's not the same player and not the same leader. I've never pounded the drums much on Ortiz the juicer, but, all this genuflecting defense he's getting around here is more evidence that practically nobody in this forum is anywhere near objective on him. How you have the temerity to claim you are unbiased - but I am on Ortiz beggars the sane mind.


Wait until the guy tests positive if you wanna revisit this topic and bury him there.

Thanks for the advice - voice of the biased. I will do as I like - as always - don't like it? Lump it, or put me on ignore.

RedSoxtober
05-13-2013, 11:41 AM
I'll have to find out, but if the % of Domincan players bagged using is higher then the US born players there is an issue. Certainly enough of an issue to do a Q&A with Ortiz, and print the comments as well as the background.

I think it's reasonable to for an investigator to chase the details. I'm not opposed to racial profiling in most contexts. I don't think all Middle Eastern folks should be stopped from getting on a plane but I don't want to sit next to the guy yelling "Allah Aqbar" no matter what he looks like. However, I'm also willing to bite my tongue when the targets object that they were stereotyped. They were.

I think you're implicitly agreeing that it IS a racial stereotype by suggesting that the percentages will bear out the legitimacy of questioning him.

Sadly, I think Shank could have COMPLETELY omitted any reference to his origins and gotten just as much support for his hard line of questioning. Ortiz had few PA in his rehab. The PA that Ortiz had were not great... enough that I questioned his readiness. And he's at an age where ALL ballplayers tend to be in decline regardless of their home country. Questioning this is completely appropriate.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 11:41 AM
The question is whether he IS using PED NOW. A dated failed drug test may raise some questions but it is not significant enough to convict him of anything in 2013.

A guy who steals from an employer 9 years ago is likely not to be trusted around money in similar circumstances again - no?

A guy whose mentor was booted for life - and this is public knowledge would likewise have issues getting employment.

A guy who wears the outward signs of major change from his early to his late 20's is similarly going to be judged against.

People somehow act that this is NOT the court of public opinion, but somehow a courtroom. MLB doesn't conduct itself using court specified rules, nor does the media or fans - in many cases.

If Ortiz had wanted to be NOT molested in this way, he shouldn't have juiced, shouldn' have taken almost a week to explain about his Dominican drink, nor spent time with a trainer that ended getting banned by MLB.

It is very possible to be convicted in the court of common-sense and public opinion. Fans that demand pristene evidence before they stop believing the fairy tale could be seen as very strict and proper - or just plain old boot lickers who are happy to ********** at the Yankees of the mid 2000's, but won't buy that their sainted Red Sox of the same time have even a hangnail.

Ludicrous.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 11:45 AM
I think it's reasonable to for an investigator to chase the details. I'm not opposed to racial profiling in most contexts. They were.

The two counties have totally different laws. For instance you can go to Holland and smoke probably 500 different sort of products with THC in it, but you cann't do it here. In the US you can get an abortion but can't do that in other places. Profiling different laws isn't racist.


I think you're implicitly agreeing that it IS a racial stereotype by suggesting that the percentages will bear out the legitimacy of questioning him.

Sorry I gave that impression. I am not.


Sadly, I think Shank could have COMPLETELY omitted any reference to his origins and gotten just as much support for his hard line of questioning. Ortiz had few PA in his rehab. The PA that Ortiz had were not great... enough that I questioned his readiness. And he's at an age where ALL ballplayers tend to be in decline regardless of their home country. Questioning this is completely appropriate.

He may have brought trouble by not explaining himself and leaving it open.

RedSoxtober
05-13-2013, 11:52 AM
It is very possible to be convicted in the court of common-sense and public opinion. Fans that demand pristene evidence before they stop believing the fairy tale could be seen as very strict and proper - or just plain old boot lickers who are happy to ********** at the Yankees of the mid 2000's, but won't buy that their sainted Red Sox of the same time have even a hangnail.

Dr. Sam Shepherd says hello.

RedSoxtober
05-13-2013, 12:01 PM
Sorry I gave that impression. I am not.
How does the perspective that "the % of Domincan players bagged using is higher then the US born players there is an issue. Certainly enough of an issue to do a Q&A with Ortiz" not implicitly agreeing that the race-based stereotype is legit? Your logic is pretty straightforward: the % of DR bagged is higher and the is enough or an issue to ask. Looks like direct correlation.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 04:17 PM
How does the perspective that "the % of Domincan players bagged using is higher then the US born players there is an issue. Certainly enough of an issue to do a Q&A with Ortiz" not implicitly agreeing that the race-based stereotype is legit? Your logic is pretty straightforward: the % of DR bagged is higher and the is enough or an issue to ask. Looks like direct correlation.

I didn't take much time/care writing what I put down in the post you refer to.

It would be a big point if DR players were more likely to have been bagged cheating, than the whole racist aspect of the question gets put under scrutiny.

I don't support the exact statement Shank made, which is in part one reason why I modified it in that earlier post of mine - I was already explaining why Shank meant - which should be his job as a writer - and it was a mistake on his part to leave himself open to these criticisms.

Clearly the conditions for getting PEDS in the Dominican is different than the US. I can recall reading how players from other countries took junkets down there for "treatments". That's the sort of thing I mean, and I hope what Shank meant. If it was out of racist belief on his part, then I don't support it - at all.

I'm sure Shank will have to respond to this shortly. Let's see what he does.

Ortiz is a separate case in any event, with additional conditions attached to him, which is what is mostly getting discussed here.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 04:20 PM
Dr. Sam Shepherd says hello.

I'm more into Sam Sheppard the playright/actor.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 04:24 PM
In the 2004 reports, the racial breakdown of players that failed was:

[wiki says] Of the 67 players suspended, 29 were from the United States, 20 from the Dominican Republic, 11 from Venezuela, three from Cuba, two each from Puerto Rico, and Mexico, and one each from Australia, Colombia, Japan, and Spain.

Would it be racist of me to note that the ratio of US players to Domincan, is out of whack in terms of players from both places in the ML in 2004 or 2013?

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 04:25 PM
dr1.com says:

Steriod use in the Dominican Republic

In this world of bigger muscles, bigger records and bigger contracts, the temptation to use illegal and dangerous body-modifying substances is always creeping into the minds of athletes. For most who follow the news, the ongoing debate about the use of Human Growth Hormones (HGH) and steroids has been sparked by the revelation that many of our most beloved athletes, at some point in their careers, and for a myriad of reasons, have consumed steroids. The continued acceptance of the drugs and the almost movie-like performances that follow an athlete’s foray into the world of steroids only leaves spectators wondering about the positives and rarely do we hear of, or consider the realities and negatives of introducing dangerous substances into our bodies. But who cares, right? The point of it all is to get as big as you can now, so you can get as much money as you can later. But beyond the glitz and glamour of the international sports world is the reality that steroids and alternative body-modifying substances are readily available in the DR and that most athletes and non-athletes alike are not aware of the dangers associated with consuming these substances.

The steroid subculture has grown considerably in the DR over the last decade with baseball prodigies looking to gain the advantage that will catapult him to the multi-million dollar deal. But look further down and you will also notice that the trend also includes average “Joes” who want to bulk up a bit so they can look good at the beach. It might sound a bit ridiculous to some, the idea of mortgaging your future health for vanity, but the reality exists. What’s even more scary is the accessibility factor of steroids in the DR, how misinformed are those who consume the substances and the fact that these substances aren’t viewed in the same negative light as in the US or Europe.

Background
Baseball players have always been notorious for looking for the slightest edge to get them over the hump. The stories of Vaseline on the hat to give a slider a bit more movement or the pine tar a bit below the bat line are part of baseball culture. But in recent years performance-enhancing substances have become the answer du jour for ball players looking to get a bit more resistance, a bit more power or simply recovery from a minor injury. The prevalence of these substances in baseball came to light after the 1996 season when Brady Anderson hit 50 homeruns and admitted to using over-the-counter performance-enhancing supplements. While not illegal, it marked the start of a new era. In 1998 baseball also became of interest when Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa embarked on a season to be remembered. Both Sosa and McGwire had been known to be power hitters before their magical season, but 1998 was a season that no one had expected.

The season started off as any other. Both sluggers were doing relatively well in the homerun category but eventually the race picked up with McGwire finishing the season with 70, while Sosa finished with 66. After the season McGwire admitted to using an over-the-counter substance, Androstenedione, a precursor to steroids. At the time the substance was sold over the counter and was legal, but what cast a shadow of doubt over McGwire was that it had already been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, the NFL and the International Olympic Committee. This was a sign of things to come. Eventually Sosa was also linked with performance-enhancers, as were other big- name ball players like Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro and Roger Clemens.

Dominicans in Baseball
Dominicans make up 10.7% of the 750 baseball players on the Major League Baseball rosters. A total of 79 Dominicans are on the rosters, but there are several more on the injured list. This means that 90 Dominicans or more are playing in MLB at the time of writing of this article. Of the group, 39 are pitchers and two are catchers. The Kansas City Royals is the team with the largest number of Dominicans on their roster, with six. Boston is second with five, and there are four Dominicans players on the Chicago Cubs, Pittsburgh Pirates, Washington Nationals, New York Mets, Cleveland Indians, Detroit Tigers and New York Yankees, making these the most popular teams for local fans. The volume of Dominican players in MLB is a reflection of their overall monetary value. The 92 Dominican players in Major League Baseball will earn a total of US$337,499,784 million in salaries in 2008. The top paying teams are the Boston Red Sox, which pays Dominicans US$45.4 million, the New York Mets - US$33.2 million, the New York Yankees - US$32.6 million, and the Chicago Cubs - US$30 million. The best paid Dominican players are Alex Rodriguez with US$28 million (Yankees), Manny Ramirez with US$18.9 million (Red Sox), Rafael Furcal, US$15.7 million (Dodgers), Vladimir Guerrero US$15.5 (Anaheim Angels), Aramis Ramirez with US$15.2 million (Cubs), Miguel Tejada US$14.8 million (Houston Astros), Alfonso Soriano with US$14 million (Cubs) and Albert Pujols, US$13.8 (St. Louis Cardinals).

Dominican Baseball and Steroids
Though it is difficult to ascertain exactly when the boom of steroid use among Dominican players began, steroid use amongst ballplayers from the Dominican Republic has been a major issue within Major League Baseball. According to a report by writer Tom Fish, over half of all players (57%) who tested positive for steroid usage were from the Dominican Republic. Accordingly, the DR leads the baseball world in suspended performance-enhancing drug users. Fish writes that “more than half of all pro baseball players who tested positive since the start of the 2005 season -- 169 of 289, or 58.5 percent -- hail from the Dominican Republic, and that includes major and minor leagues, as well as those who play in the Dominican and Venezuelan summer leagues.” Fish continues by explaining that of the 157 players suspended during this time, 37 (close to one-quarter) are from the Dominican Republic. And approximately 132 others have tested positive since 2005 in the 32-team Dominican Summer League, which generally features players just starting out in pro ball. They can't be suspended because of the country's labor laws.

Reasons for use
Why do these young athletes take the risks involved with taking performance-enhancing drugs? The reasons are plentiful. The most obvious is poverty. Many of these young ball players come from the poorest sectors of the Dominican Republic and they see baseball as their way out. Unfortunately for these young athletes, the quality of baseball in the country is so high that only the best of the best are scouted and signed to minor league contracts, so these athletes are looking for a leg up on the competition and looking for that one thing that will get them over the hump. According to Fernando Mateo, president of Hispanics Across America, a New York-based advocacy group that lobbies Major League Baseball on Latino issues, "Dominicans have an easy explanation for their collective shrug whenever the subject of steroids arises. They argue that just as stealing bread is not a crime when a man is starving, taking performance-enhancing drugs is acceptable when a player is desperate to get off an island where the poverty rate hovers around 40%”. Mateo continues by saying that “what’s wrong in the US isn't so wrong there” and that “for baseball, fighting steroid use in the Dominican Republic has been like throwing punches underwater. The country that produced nearly 12% of the major leaguers on last year's Opening Day rosters and more than 20% of the All-Star starters last July, also produced one-third of the positive tests in the major and minor leagues in 2007."

The ‘buscon’ is another part of the steroids issue in the DR. Buscones, or finders, are people who try and find the next best prospects. These “street agents” are known to guide the careers of young athletes, introduce them to scouts and agents, enroll them in baseball academies and will take a cut from the young athlete if he is ever to sign with a major league team. Buscones have also been known to influence the dietary habits of these athletes and start them on steroids at a very young age in order to increase their viability on the scout market.

Others might argue the lack of education about performance enhancers might be part of the reason why these kids take drugs. Many have no idea what they are ingesting and take the recommendations of family or friends. Recently Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz, in an interview in the Boston Herald, admitted that he was not sure if he had in fact taken performance-enhancing drugs. Said Ortiz, “I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don’t do that anymore because they don’t have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I’m off buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican (Republic). But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don’t know. I don’t know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it.”

What they use
Ball players have been known to use a variety of substances to help them get an edge. The most common of these substances are amphetamines, which are known to give users an “up,” or more energy. Amphetamines are readily available and are used to combat the wear of a lengthy baseball season. Ephedra or ephedrine is also readily available in the DR and is very popular, as athletes believe it will give them an edge. Though banned in the US, and by the IOC and most major league sports, the substance is commonly found in the DR, especially in health and supplement stores. Most athletes are not aware of the dangers of these drugs or the fact that they have been banned by the Food and Drug Administration in the US.

Stanazolol (Winstrol) is a synthetic anabolic steroid developed from testosterone. It is a more expensive steroid and requires precision when using. The substance is known to increase strength without increasing body fat, but must be used in combination with other steroid substances.

Dimetabol has become very popular in recent years among athletes. Dimetabol is a mixture of vitamins and the steroid Nandrolone. Some say this mix is very popular because the vitamins are meant to mask the steroid agent. It is also popular because users can say they thought they were taking a vitamin shot if they are ever caught during doping tests. This particular substance is manufactured by a Mexican veterinary supply company and is intended for use on cattle and horses during periods of stress or after birth to aid recovery and weight gain.

Diamino is also a very popular drug among Dominican baseball players because it is cheap and readily available. This steroid is intended for use on cattle, but for poor children looking to keep up with the pack this is the best alternative they have.

At the gym
Gyms have long been a Holy Grail for those curious souls looking for that magic potion that will get them over the edge. Usually, the conversation about steroids and other substances is a quiet hush affair in locker rooms, but this is not the case in DR. It can be said that the conversation is quite the contrary, out in the open, rarely informative and more like life a fairy tale. Walking through the weight areas around Santo Domingo’s gyms you hear the murmurs and jokes that some individual has ventured into the world of steroids, but that comment is usually followed by the comment “un chin de puya, eso no es nada.” According to a man nicknamed Mack, a cycle on a steroid isn’t a bad thing. His sentiments are echoed by one of the three trainers at this particular gym. As the conversation continues, Mack, a short stocky lifter in his forties, discusses the virtues of injecting yourself with Stanazolol (Winstrol.) As the older gentleman continues his sales pitch as to why any man should inject himself with steroids, he dismisses rumors that steroids have harmful side effects and says that in his life he has never experienced or seen anything bad happen to anyone who has taken steroids.

Things are changing
According to figures provided by MLB, in 2004, the inaugural year of drug testing in the Dominican Summer League, 11 percent of teenage prospects signed by major league clubs tested positive. By last summer, that percentage had declined to 3.5. Fernando Mateo explained “though the summer and winter leagues have tested for steroids since 2004, the country's labor laws prohibited teams from suspending players who tested positive; violators were instead referred to counseling. But after intense lobbying by Major League Baseball, the Dominican government reinterpreted its laws. Starting this summer, players who test positive will face the same escalating 50-game, 100-game and permanent suspensions doled out by MLB."

Steroid use is now a reality among the thousands of young athletes who see baseball as their meal ticket. The competitiveness of the game, coupled with the poverty in the DR, the million-dollar contracts, lack of education and the idea that introducing illegal and dangerous substances into the body is the best way to increase productivity will continue driving these young kids into dangerous patterns of behavior. The cycle will not change until the forces at the top realize that there are legitimate health issues to consider. But the downside is that the increased competitiveness is increasing quality of talent and increased revenues for the Major League teams that are here. The double-edged sword is sharp with the young talented hopefuls standing close to the razor sharp blades.

sawxfan
05-13-2013, 04:34 PM
Ortiz was asked some objectionable questions by Shaughnessy and Ortiz called him out on it. It was absolutely in his right to do so. He didn't act out violently. It was Shanks right to ask the questions, and it was in Ortiz's right to respond the way he did. We just do not agree with you Bags, it doesn't make us bad people.

And to go on and say that we never question the actions of anyone in the Sox organization is just silly. I think we were almost all in agreement about getting rid of the guys they did last year. Most of us were also in agreement that Bobby V. was a tool and needed to just go away. I also think that many of us question the way Lucchino goes about his business.

To say we all are "Fans that demand pristene evidence before they stop believing the fairy tale could be seen as very strict and proper - or just plain old boot lickers who are happy to ********** at the Yankees of the mid 2000's, but won't buy that their sainted Red Sox of the same time have even a hangnail." is just plain wrong. We just don't agree with you and the way you go about crapping on people when they do disagree with you.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 08:01 PM
It was Shanks right to ask the questions, and it was in Ortiz's right to respond the way he did.

That'a more open minded than most of the responses so far.


We just do not agree with you Bags, it doesn't make us bad people.

I'm a bit past "bad" and "good". People are complex, unless passion over a team or a player makes them one dimensional - much like the way Rondo fans deal with anyone calling out his junk. And in case anyone is wondering, Ortiz is far more mature, and has done far more than Rondo has IMO, they are not that good a comparison.


And to go on and say that we never question the actions of anyone in the Sox organization is just silly. I think we were almost all in agreement about getting rid of the guys they did last year. Most of us were also in agreement that Bobby V. was a tool and needed to just go away. I also think that many of us question the way Lucchino goes about his business.

None of those things is as visceral to BRS fans as Ortiz. I don't think many would object, and BTW, I was all over LL for years, and took a pile of crap over it right here.


To say we all are "Fans that demand pristene evidence before they stop believing the fairy tale could be seen as very strict and proper - or just plain old boot lickers who are happy to ********** at the Yankees of the mid 2000's, but won't buy that their sainted Red Sox of the same time have even a hangnail." is just plain wrong. We just don't agree with you and the way you go about crapping on people when they do disagree with you.

I've read more than my share of high handed comments on Ortiz and been called all sorts of names. After so long, I believe I'm allowed a bombastic statement or two.

bagwell368
05-13-2013, 08:02 PM
How does the perspective that "the % of Domincan players bagged using is higher then the US born players there is an issue. Certainly enough of an issue to do a Q&A with Ortiz" not implicitly agreeing that the race-based stereotype is legit? Your logic is pretty straightforward: the % of DR bagged is higher and the is enough or an issue to ask. Looks like direct correlation.

I didn't take much time/care writing what I put down in the post you refer to.

It would be a big point if DR players were more likely to have been bagged cheating, than the whole racist aspect of the question gets put under serious scrutiny.

But, Ortiz is a separate cases in any event, with additional conditions attached to him, which is what is mostly getting discussed here.

I don't support the exact statement Shank made, which is in part one reason why I modified it in that earlier post of mine - I was already explaining why Shank meant - which should be his job as a writer - and it was a mistake on his part to leave himself open to these criticisms.

Clearly the conditions for getting PEDS in the Dominican is different than the US. I can recall reading how players from other countries took junkets down there for "treatments". That's the sort of thing I mean, and I hope what Shank meant. If it was out of racist belief on his part, then I don't support it - at all.

I'm sure Shank will have to respond to this shortly. Let's see what he does.

RedSoxtober
05-14-2013, 11:23 AM
Ortiz was asked some objectionable questions by Shaughnessy and Ortiz called him out on it. It was absolutely in his right to do so. He didn't act out violently. It was Shanks right to ask the questions, and it was in Ortiz's right to respond the way he did. We just do not agree with you Bags, it doesn't make us bad people.

I don't agree with this either. I don't think the questions that Shank asked were objectionable at least not in the typical sense of being baseless. There IS a legit reason to ask the questions and the reason is related to a number of factors about Ortiz including his country of origin (that he returns to often in the off season). I simply also understand why Ortiz objects to the question.

In this case my bigger problem is that I think that Shank was WAY to quick on the draw. Asserting PED-induced inflation after only 15 games simply didn't allow for typical SSS problems. As I've noted above I also find problems with the fact that he did not attempt to put Ortiz' performance into Ortiz own historical context -- which matches not only his hot start but also his quick tailing off at the place recently.

BTW, it will probably be a shock to no one that Shank may have been driven as much by having an old ax to grind as by the data. Per this article by Chad Finn (http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2013/05/red_sox_slumping.html), Shank was not happy that none of his colleagues put the question directly to Ortiz when his name was leaked earlier. This probably explains why he was so quick to nail him now. I'd rather have seen more time elapse personally.


In the 2004 reports, the racial breakdown of players that failed was:

[wiki says] Of the 67 players suspended, 29 were from the United States, 20 from the Dominican Republic, 11 from Venezuela, three from Cuba, two each from Puerto Rico, and Mexico, and one each from Australia, Colombia, Japan, and Spain.

Would it be racist of me to note that the ratio of US players to Domincan, is out of whack in terms of players from both places in the ML in 2004 or 2013?

Just for reference here's the baseline of players by nationality (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/birthplace.php?y=2004) in 2004:
US: 969
DR: 141
VZ: 69
Cuba: 14
PR: 53
Mex: 25

I don't think that noting a high rate of cheating (correlation) is inherently racist. However, I think that asserting that there is a "formula" (causation) presses on racism. At the very least it has racist undertones. Shank could/should have drawn out the very numbers shown here.

todu82
05-15-2013, 12:48 PM
I would hope that Ortiz isn't using steroids but you never know these days.

AI
05-19-2013, 02:46 AM
So Ortiz hit 2 bombs and is back to raking again, he must have "juiced" again. Damn cheater.

sawxfan
05-19-2013, 03:05 AM
That'a more open minded than most of the responses so far.

I'm a bit past "bad" and "good". People are complex, unless passion over a team or a player makes them one dimensional - much like the way Rondo fans deal with anyone calling out his junk. And in case anyone is wondering, Ortiz is far more mature, and has done far more than Rondo has IMO, they are not that good a comparison.

None of those things is as visceral to BRS fans as Ortiz. I don't think many would object, and BTW, I was all over LL for years, and took a pile of crap over it right here.

I've read more than my share of high handed comments on Ortiz and been called all sorts of names. After so long, I believe I'm allowed a bombastic statement or two.

I agree completely. I know you know a ton about the game and it shows in your comments and well researched responses. You are indeed allowed a bombastic statement or two, many of us are. I look forward to more conversations whether we agree or disagree. Go Sox!

sawxfan
05-19-2013, 03:11 AM
I don't agree with this either. I don't think the questions that Shank asked were objectionable at least not in the typical sense of being baseless. There IS a legit reason to ask the questions and the reason is related to a number of factors about Ortiz including his country of origin (that he returns to often in the off season). I simply also understand why Ortiz objects to the question.

I truly don't mean to split hairs, and I'm not looking for everyone to agree with me, but don't those two statements kinda contradict each other?

bagwell368
05-19-2013, 07:04 AM
I truly don't mean to split hairs, and I'm not looking for everyone to agree with me, but don't those two statements kinda contradict each other?

Two different people, with two different jobs, for two different organizations, from different generations, and with different backgrounds - it would be unnatural if they agreed on a topic such as this. It wouldn't respect both if you just assume only one way can be the right way, or at least acknowledge there is another way with adherents to that POV.

I've laid out some players over time, and seen writers do the same and seen many frosty replies here. God forbid we should disturb the Red Sox STAR making $10M a year... we might not win because we found out Bogg's wife pushed him out of the jeep....!!

I'd like to remind everyone that journalists and writers have done far more real good for this country since its inception than sports stars, by many times over. Nobody that lived through the McCarthy or Nixon eras would object to a strong media (unless they are right wingers), but most that post here just know the media as purveyors of "top 10" lists, and long distance photos of royals with no tops on. Shame. They still helped uncover the Iran-Contra scandal, eventually got onto the steroid story, and so much more.

RedSoxtober
05-20-2013, 09:55 AM
I truly don't mean to split hairs, and I'm not looking for everyone to agree with me, but don't those two statements kinda contradict each other?

Not if you include the explanatory phrase right after the first statement that you bolded. The questions were not objectionable in the sense that there was no reasoning whatsoever. There were a number of points of correlation that made the questions sensible. As I mentioned earlier, I think that Shank could have easily left out the DR references and the questions would still have made sense (if only premature). The DR link is yet another point of correlation, though, and I can understand why it was there.

Even with a rational basis for the DR link I can see why Ortiz objected to it. Shank led off with it in his descriptions of the incident and may have overemphasized that aspect (we're getting only his side of the story when it comes to the Q&A). Ortiz clearly keyed on it in his response and perhaps that's really ALL he heard. Whatever the case I can see why he objects to being lumped in with the crowd. We're a collection of individuals.

Pittz
05-20-2013, 10:35 AM
Adding to that, classing questions as generally objectionable is in large part separate to how the individual being asked the questions perceives them. It's a journalist's job in many situations to ask questions to a person who finds them objectionable. That doesn't mean the questions are unreasonable and without basis, and it certainly doesn't make them unfair.

RedSoxtober
05-20-2013, 11:56 AM
Adding to that, classing questions as generally objectionable is in large part separate to how the individual being asked the questions perceives them. It's a journalist's job in many situations to ask questions to a person who finds them objectionable. That doesn't mean the questions are unreasonable and without basis, and it certainly doesn't make them unfair.

+1, So much better expressed than what I wrote.

sawxfan
05-20-2013, 04:30 PM
I think we all agree. I was trying to say that the questions were objectionable because I could see why Ortiz found them to be so.

sawxfan
05-20-2013, 04:33 PM
Two different people, with two different jobs, for two different organizations, from different generations, and with different backgrounds - it would be unnatural if they agreed on a topic such as this. It wouldn't respect both if you just assume only one way can be the right way, or at least acknowledge there is another way with adherents to that POV.

I've laid out some players over time, and seen writers do the same and seen many frosty replies here. God forbid we should disturb the Red Sox STAR making $10M a year... we might not win because we found out Bogg's wife pushed him out of the jeep....!!

I'd like to remind everyone that journalists and writers have done far more real good for this country since its inception than sports stars, by many times over. Nobody that lived through the McCarthy or Nixon eras would object to a strong media (unless they are right wingers), but most that post here just know the media as purveyors of "top 10" lists, and long distance photos of royals with no tops on. Shame. They still helped uncover the Iran-Contra scandal, eventually got onto the steroid story, and so much more.

I'm not so sure sports journalists have done more real good for the country.

bagwell368
05-20-2013, 07:13 PM
I'm not so sure sports journalists have done more real good for the country.

Maybe, but you'd have to count non spots journalists writing about sports, and perhaps sports journalists writing about non sports topics, as well as asides.

sawxfan
05-21-2013, 07:00 AM
Maybe, but you'd have to count non spots journalists writing about sports, and perhaps sports journalists writing about non sports topics, as well as asides.

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