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JerseyPalahniuk
05-06-2013, 10:17 PM
Jimmy Butler has now played 3 consecutive games of 48 minutes while guarding Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and all 3 of the Big 3 against the Heat tonight. Dude is playing like a monster with Deng out. Can't wait to see a healthy Rose/Butler/Deng/Boozer(or Gibson)/Noah lineup

mdm692
05-06-2013, 10:22 PM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Swashcuff
05-06-2013, 10:26 PM
He became the 1st player in 40 years to play every minute of games 6 and 7 in a playoff series. Dave Cowens was the last person to do it back in 73. Didn't get a chance to do it again in the next game however since the Knicks knocked the Celts out in game 7 en route to their 2nd title. Jimmy making history with his minutes played :laugh:

JerseyPalahniuk
05-06-2013, 10:27 PM
.

JerseyPalahniuk
05-06-2013, 10:27 PM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Oh, you mean Iguodala?

Swashcuff
05-06-2013, 10:28 PM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Who is this all star calibre wing that would be available for Luol Deng?

Swashcuff
05-06-2013, 10:29 PM
Edited

D-Leethal
05-06-2013, 10:30 PM
If Deng come back healthy, with him and Butler guarding the wing and Noah with the help, Miami might be in serious trouble. Throw Heinrich who is still one of the best PG defenders out there, and we have ourselves a series.

JerseyPalahniuk
05-06-2013, 10:31 PM
Rose
Iguodala
Butler
Free agent Scoring Big
Noah

Bench: Robinson, Hinrich, Bellineli, Gibson, Nazr

DEFENSE

waveycrockett
05-06-2013, 10:36 PM
Jimmy Butler is the best defensive player in the NBA right now

waveycrockett
05-06-2013, 10:38 PM
If Deng come back healthy, with him and Butler guarding the wing and Noah with the help, Miami might be in serious trouble. Throw Heinrich who is still one of the best PG defenders out there, and we have ourselves a series.

If Been saying this since the Nets/Bulls series. CHI is better off with Hinrich injured. Nate playing 40 minutes instead of 25 is a blessing for them. He is a machine.

D-Leethal
05-06-2013, 10:41 PM
If Been saying this since the Nets/Bulls series. CHI is better off with Hinrich injured. Nate playing 40 minutes instead of 25 is a blessing for them. He is a machine.

Well Bulls are lucky that Chalmers blows, because anyone Nate is guarding usually explodes. Nate's offensive creativity can be mini-Rose like at times but I think Heinrich and his defense + stability would bring a nice balance, even if Nate was getting 30-35 min and Heinrich getting the scraps.

Rain City
05-06-2013, 10:46 PM
:speechless: this guy is remarkable, CHI is so lucky to have him. a solid all around game designed for NBA and great intangibles. hes going to be in paul george class next yr IMO.

waveycrockett
05-06-2013, 10:47 PM
Well Bulls are lucky that Chalmers blows, because anyone Nate is guarding usually explodes. Nate's offensive creativity can be mini-Rose like at times but I think Heinrich and his defense + stability would bring a nice balance, even if Nate was getting 30-35 min and Heinrich getting the scraps.

There is no "mini" rose about him on offense. He can put up 30 every night easy. The only place he isn't Rose's equal is on defense. The only way to stop Nate Rob is have him work hard on the other end and unless Wade starts playing some PG the Miami Heat are screwed.

DallasTrilla23
05-06-2013, 10:48 PM
I can't wait to see Deng and Hinrich come back. That defense is gonna be crazy.

Jimmy might be ugly as **** but he can play. Don't let em hold ya down jimmy!

justinnum1
05-06-2013, 10:49 PM
very impressive

greg_ory_2005
05-06-2013, 10:50 PM
Jimmehhhhhhh :drool:

waveycrockett
05-06-2013, 10:51 PM
If Thibs can turn an unathletic stuff like Deng into an elite defender I'm scared what he is going to do with Butler.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-06-2013, 11:03 PM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Move an All-star Wing for an all-star caliber wing? Not sure I follow.

urlachermess
05-06-2013, 11:03 PM
He's earning himself a fat contract is what hes doing! Go get um Jimmy Buckets

kozelkid
05-06-2013, 11:04 PM
If Thibs can turn an unathletic stuff like Deng into an elite defender I'm scared what he is going to do with Butler.

If you think Deng was an unathletic stiff, shows what you know. There's a reason he was second highest touted player in his high school class behind Lebron. And after his third season, many thought he'd be the next star.

Ezio
05-06-2013, 11:10 PM
If you think Deng was an unathletic stiff, shows what you know. There's a reason he was second highest touted player in his high school class behind Lebron. And after his third season, many thought he'd be the next star.

He's overpaid though.

waveycrockett
05-06-2013, 11:34 PM
If you think Deng was an unathletic stiff, shows what you know. There's a reason he was second highest touted player in his high school class behind Lebron. And after his third season, many thought he'd be the next star.


Deng dropped to 7th in the NBA draft after a great college career as freshman because his lack of athleticism. Stop taking it as a criticism.

mdm692
05-06-2013, 11:45 PM
Move an All-star Wing for an all-star caliber wing? Not sure I follow.

Better offensively and younger.

kozelkid
05-07-2013, 01:44 AM
Deng dropped to 7th in the NBA draft after a great college career as freshman because his lack of athleticism. Stop taking it as a criticism.

I'm not taking anything as a criticism. Calling him an "unathletic stiff" is utterly false.

There are criticisms that are true and ones that are false. I love Butler, but he is not NEARLY as talented as Deng. That's why one player went 7th overall while the other went 30th.

The one big thing that makes Butler a more exciting player is that he is a much better ball-handler than Deng. By the same token, that's why so many average fans don't like Deng. He doesn't have any handles.

That said, as far as physical ability, Deng was significantly more talented.

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 01:47 AM
I'm not taking anything as a criticism. Calling him an "unathletic stiff" is utterly false.

There are criticisms that are true and ones that are false. I love Butler, but he is not NEARLY as talented as Deng. That's why one player went 7th overall while the other went 30th.

The one big thing that makes Butler a more exciting player is that he is a much better ball-handler than Deng. By the same token, that's why so many average fans don't like Deng. He doesn't have any handles.

That said, as far as physical ability, Deng was significantly more talented.

In what way? I'm pretty sure as far as measurables go, Butler blows him away in almost all of them. He's certainly as fast, if not faster, he can definitely jump higher. And he definitely has some quick feet.

Deng might have a shade more lateral quickness and he's WAY longer, Deng's wingspan is ****ing enormous. I'm legitimately asking here. I'm very curious.

kozelkid
05-07-2013, 02:03 AM
In what way? I'm pretty sure as far as measurables go, Butler blows him away in almost all of them. He's certainly as fast, if not faster, he can definitely jump higher. And he definitely has some quick feet.

Deng might have a shade more lateral quickness and he's WAY longer, Deng's wingspan is ****ing enormous. I'm legitimately asking here. I'm very curious.

Deng definitely has him in every facet as far as size goes (as you already mentioned).

Deng killed him in the agility facet (11.46 vs. 11.92).

Butler may be a faster sprinter, but seriously, how often, if ever, do you even put on a full court sprint in the NBA?

Butler killed him in the max vert reach, but their no step vert was a lot closer (29 vs.32 inches). Which again, a no step vert probably holds much more importance as far as rebounds go.

Now I'll admit that I exaggerated Deng's athleticism with relation to Butler's. That said, from a basketball standpoint, I'm not at all convinced that Butler is in any way more gifted physically than Deng. No way. Deng's length and lateral quickness hold a much bigger advantage in this sport than Butler's advantage as a jumper. Which really goes back to the whole point that people focus WAY too much on max vert reach and sprint when in reality, neither are utilized THAT much in your typical NBA game.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 02:08 AM
Jimmy Butler is the best defensive player in the NBA right now

I'm not sure why people don't see this. The kid is a top 5 defender in the nba and can play defense on all-stars like they are regular players. 48mins and 3 fouls guarding the best player in the league and one of them was a forced foul on a breakaway.

Ezio
05-07-2013, 02:16 AM
I'm not sure why people don't see this. The kid is a top 5 defender in the nba and can play defense on all-stars like they are regular players. 48mins and 3 fouls guarding the best player in the league and one of them was a forced foul on a breakaway.

Because he's our secret weapon :shush:

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 02:17 AM
I'm not sure why people don't see this. The kid is a top 5 defender in the nba and can play defense on all-stars like they are regular players. 48mins and 3 fouls guarding the best player in the league and one of them was a forced foul on a breakaway.

You don't get why people don't see that he's a better defensive player than LeBron, Tony Allen, Gasol, Noah, Iggy, Duncan, Paul George, Hibbert, etc etc etc

Interesting.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 02:23 AM
You don't get why people don't see that he's a better defensive player than LeBron, Tony Allen, Gasol, Noah, Iggy, Duncan, Paul George, Hibbert, etc etc etc

Interesting.

He's a better defender than everyone but the first four you mentioned putting him at number 5, which is why I said top 5. Also, since when is Paul George an elite defender?

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 02:25 AM
Deng definitely has him in every facet as far as size goes (as you already mentioned).

Deng killed him in the agility facet (11.46 vs. 11.92).

Butler may be a faster sprinter, but seriously, how often, if ever, do you even put on a full court sprint in the NBA?

Butler killed him in the max vert reach, but their no step vert was a lot closer (29 vs.32 inches). Which again, a no step vert probably holds much more importance as far as rebounds go.

Now I'll admit that I exaggerated Deng's athleticism with relation to Butler's. That said, from a basketball standpoint, I'm not at all convinced that Butler is in any way more gifted physically than Deng. No way. Deng's length and lateral quickness hold a much bigger advantage in this sport than Butler's advantage as a jumper. Which really goes back to the whole point that people focus WAY too much on max vert reach and sprint when in reality, neither are utilized THAT much in your typical NBA game.

Yeah, he kills him in length, for sure. But Butler is stronger I think. And I think that's actually fairly easily. Also, Butler put up an 11.30 in lane agility. So what are you talking about with 11.92?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jimmy-Butler-6315/

In a no vert jump 29 vs 32 is MASSIVE. 3 inches is a LOT when it comes to jumping. And how often do you honestly no step jump in basketball? I'd say almost never as a wing player. That's way more important as a big. And I'd honestly say that because Butler is so smart and almost NEVER falls for the pump fake, his ability to out jump Deng to heavily contest jumpers greatly makes up for his lack of length. He gets his hand WAY up on EVERY shot pretty easily because of his jumping ability.

It also helps him a lot with the number of boards he gets on the offensive end.

PS: It's worth noting that LeBron's "Per 36" numbers yesterday were pretty pedestrian with Jimmy guarding him. He put up 19.8 points, 6.6 assists and 5.8 boards. Which is pretty fantastic. (This is in reference to him being a top 5 defender, although I'd qualify that by saying top 5 wing defender).

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 02:28 AM
He's a better defender than everyone but the first four you mentioned putting him at number 5, which is why I said top 5. Also, since when is Paul George an elite defender?

Since you clearly have not watched anyone basketball this past season. In case you didn't know Paul George finished 8th in DPOY voting one spot ahead of Iggy (the player who seen on damn near every circle as the best perimeter defender in the game) and two spots ahead of Hibbert who is seen as a top 3 paint defender in the game. TBH if you don't think Paul George is an elite defender in the NBA then you're in NO position whatsoever to rank the top 5 best in the game. Butler better than Iggy and Duncan? That's laughable.

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 02:30 AM
Since you clearly have not watched anyone basketball this past season. In case you didn't know Paul George finished 8th in DPOY voting one spot ahead of Iggy (the player who seen on damn near every circle as the best perimeter defender in the game) and two spots ahead of Hibbert who is seen as a top 3 paint defender in the game. TBH if you don't think Paul George is an elite defender in the NBA then you're in NO position whatsoever to rank the top 5 best in the game. Butler better than Iggy and Duncan? That's laughable.

Seeing as you're using DPOY voting to judge players on their defensive ability, I'm pretty sure you're the one that doesn't watch basketball.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 02:35 AM
Since you clearly have not watched anyone basketball this past season. In case you didn't know Paul George finished 8th in DPOY voting one spot ahead of Iggy (the player who seen on damn near every circle as the best perimeter defender in the game) and two spots ahead of Hibbert who is seen as a top 3 paint defender in the game. TBH if you don't think Paul George is an elite defender in the NBA then you're in NO position whatsoever to rank the top 5 best in the game. Butler better than Iggy and Duncan? That's laughable.

Butler has only started 20 games this season compared to the starters you've been mentioning. If were going to go by reputation and dpoy voting of course he would lose out to them; this is only his second year playing and he's a non-starter. I haven't watched basketball past this season your hilarious man. Hold on to that opinion though, we'll see who has the better defensive post season; your entitled to that opinion.

kozelkid
05-07-2013, 02:37 AM
Yeah, he kills him in length, for sure. But Butler is stronger I think. And I think that's actually fairly easily. Also, Butler put up an 11.30 in lane agility. So what are you talking about with 11.92?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jimmy-Butler-6315/

Here.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2011&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

In fact, there are two different measurements for him which makes no ****ing sense... :confused:


In a no vert jump 29 vs 32 is MASSIVE. 3 inches is a LOT when it comes to jumping. And how often do you honestly no step jump in basketball? I'd say almost never as a wing player. That's way more important as a big. And I'd honestly say that because Butler is so smart and almost NEVER falls for the pump fake, his ability to out jump Deng to heavily contest jumpers greatly makes up for his lack of length. He gets his hand WAY up on EVERY shot pretty easily because of his jumping ability.

It also helps him a lot with the number of boards he gets on the offensive end.

It really isn't.

And I couldn't disagree with you more with regards to step or no-step vertical. You do no step A LOT more often than step, whether you're a big or a wing. Defensively, you're taught to jump straight up when contesting a shot. Same goes with rebounding. When you rebound for the ball, you usually do not have time to gather yourself to get the ball, let alone the space in a crowd of players looking to get it.

The only situation where Jimmy's step vertical has merit is attacking the basket for a facial which is not very often.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 02:41 AM
Seeing as you're using DPOY voting to judge players on their defensive ability, I'm pretty sure you're the one that doesn't watch basketball.

Great rebuttal.

Would you like a further breakdown? Fine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTNQ_rqReOs
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bLXLReLgdxA
http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2012/01/how-paul-george-locked-down-kobe-bryant-in-the-4th-quarter/
http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/05/06/2013-nba-playoffs-dont-overlook-paul-georges-defense-for-indiana-pacers/

Now you take a look and a read and then tell me Paul George isn't an elite defensive player. GTFO with telling me I don't watch games. If you'd like me to dive even deeper and give you a statistical breakdown of Paul George's defensive value I will.

I simply cited the NBA award voting (as voted on by people wayyyyyyyyy smarter than you or the other dude who watches way more ball than you) as my reason why I said Paul George is an elite defender and you attempt to call me out for it. Really? Hahaha.

Know what next time I won't anything to back my statement I'll ignorantly make claims and refuse to defend them because I only believe what I want to believe,.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 02:44 AM
Butler has only started 20 games this season compared to the starters you've been mentioning. If were going to go by reputation and dpoy voting of course he would lose out to them; this is only his second year playing and he's a non-starter. I haven't watched basketball past this season your hilarious man. Hold on to that opinion though, we'll see who has the better defensive post season; your entitled to that opinion.

I didn't compare Butler to George with using the DPOY voting. I was simply illustrating to you the fact that Paul George is indeed an elite defensive player. I cited the DPOY voting as one of my reasonings for saying such when you take into consideration the company in which he keeps.

Anyone who doesn't know that simply doesn't watch the game.

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 02:45 AM
Here.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2011&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

In fact, there are two different measurements for him which makes no ****ing sense... :confused:



It really isn't.

And I couldn't disagree with you more with regards to step or no-step vertical. You do no step A LOT more often than step, whether you're a big or a wing. Defensively, you're taught to jump straight up when contesting a shot. Same goes with rebounding. When you rebound for the ball, you usually do not have time to gather yourself to get the ball, let alone the space in a crowd of players looking to get it.

The only situation where Jimmy's step vertical has merit is attacking the basket for a facial which is not very often.

Well, you're wrong about Lu's no step vert anyways, he put up 27.5":

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Luol-Deng-2210/

So that actually gives Jimmy 4.5" on him. I mean, that's DEFINITELY significant.

Lu kills him in length but that's about it. Jimmy is a far superior jumper, somewhere between slightly quicker and slightly less quick than Deng. And he's faster. I'm pretty sure on pure athletics he's better. Deng has super ridiculous length and the fact that he has that WITH such quickness is what makes him such an amazing defender. But Jimmy's athleticism is damn good, and as I said I'm pretty damn sure he's stronger.

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 02:46 AM
Great rebuttal.

Would you like a further breakdown? Fine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTNQ_rqReOs
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bLXLReLgdxA
http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2012/01/how-paul-george-locked-down-kobe-bryant-in-the-4th-quarter/
http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/05/06/2013-nba-playoffs-dont-overlook-paul-georges-defense-for-indiana-pacers/

Now you take a look and a read and then tell me Paul George isn't an elite defensive player. GTFO with telling me I don't watch games. If you'd like me to dive even deeper and give you a statistical breakdown of Paul George's defensive value I will.

I simply cited the NBA award voting (as voted on by people wayyyyyyyyy smarter than you or the other dude who watches way more ball than you) as my reason why I said Paul George is an elite defender and you attempt to call me out for it. Really? Hahaha.

Know what next time I won't anything to back my statement I'll ignorantly make claims and refuse to defend them because I only believe what I want to believe,.

Rant Sports. Are you ****ing kidding me? Watch Jimmy vs LeBron and Wade today. Watch THOSE highlights. Then come back to me with your Paul George ones.

Butler's PPP (points per possession) is under .8. That's ****ing elite. Like, better than Iggy last year elite. That's really the only thing you need to know about how amazing he is. I don't have all the numbers in front of me, but I'd bet a hefty sum that Jimmy's PPP for wing players was top 10 with ease and more likely top 5. This assumes the player plays at least like, 15 minutes per game or something.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 02:47 AM
Great rebuttal.

Would you like a further breakdown? Fine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTNQ_rqReOs
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bLXLReLgdxA
http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2012/01/how-paul-george-locked-down-kobe-bryant-in-the-4th-quarter/
http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/05/06/2013-nba-playoffs-dont-overlook-paul-georges-defense-for-indiana-pacers/

Now you take a look and a read and then tell me Paul George isn't an elite defensive player. GTFO with telling me I don't watch games. If you'd like me to dive even deeper and give you a statistical breakdown of Paul George's defensive value I will.

I simply cited the NBA award voting (as voted on by people wayyyyyyyyy smarter than you or the other dude who watches way more ball than you) as my reason why I said Paul George is an elite defender and you attempt to call me out for it. Really? Hahaha.

Know what next time I won't anything to back my statement I'll ignorantly make claims and refuse to defend them because I only believe what I want to believe,.

Its not ignorant to make an observation or an opinion thats not influencing others (like a personal thread, soliticing, etc). Butler has the highest defensive rating in advanced statistics, 104, (basketball-reference.com) during the playoffs of any player even on that list that's in the post season; even Noah. Granted its one statistical category and there are many factors to determining the numbers, but it does indicate that he's one hell of stopper out there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01.html#all_playoffs_advanced

fin_frenzy_84
05-07-2013, 02:47 AM
Who is this all star calibre wing that would be available for Luol Deng?

Bledsoe... Deng and Rip for Bledsoe.
Resign Nate
Sign Korver
Draft Dieng

Rose/Hinrich/Teague
Bledsoe/Nate
Butler/Korver
Boozer/Taj
Noah/Dieng

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:04 AM
Its not ignorant to make an observation or an opinion thats not influencing others (like a personal thread, soliticing, etc). Butler has the highest defensive rating in advanced statistics, 104, (basketball-reference.com) during the playoffs of any player even on that list that's in the post season; even Noah. Granted its one statistical category and there are many factors to determining the numbers, but it does indicate that he's one hell of stopper out there.

Dude just give up. The higher your defensive rating is the worst your teams defense is when you're on the floor. That in case you dnt understand stats (which you clearly don't) is not a good. It's common that you'd see bigger players however with lower DRtgs than smaller players.

What is not common however is when you see a G-F LEADING the NBA in DWS and DWS/48.



Rant Sports. Are you ****ing kidding me? Watch Jimmy vs LeBron and Wade today. Watch THOSE highlights. Then come back to me with your Paul George ones.

Did you even READ the stats in the article? seriously. Did you watch the other article or the videos? Did you? Clearly no. I watched Butler on Wade tonight. Wasn't any better than Paul George last year (http://www.foxsportsindiana.com/05/18/12/Georges-defense-the-difference-against-H/landing_pacers.html?blockID=731500).


Butler's PPP (points per possession) is under .8. That's ****ing elite. Like, better than Iggy last year elite. That's really the only thing you need to know about how amazing he is. I don't have all the numbers in front of me, but I'd bet a hefty sum that Jimmy's PPP for wing players was top 10 with ease and more likely top 5. This assumes the player plays at least like, 15 minutes per game or something.

You wanna know one of the greatest limitations with PPP? The one that the statisticians have spoken loudly about? That's opponent faced. It doesn't take I to consideration if the player spends the vast majority of his time guarding the opposing teams best offensive player or if its in spurts. If he matches up against bench players or not and even though synergy does a great job of tracking every possession it doesn't take into consideration having best defensive front court behind you and as well the best defensive head coach.

George's PPP this past season was .83, Iggy's was .82 that single stat however doesn't mean that Butler is better than they are since you'd then have to say that roughly 100 players in the league are as well. Do you think Iggy and George aren't top 100 defenders and Butler isn't top 80?

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 03:12 AM
Dude just give up. The higher your defensive rating is the worst your teams defense is when you're on the floor. That in case you dnt understand stats (which you clearly don't) is not a good. It's common that you'd see bigger players however with lower DRtgs than smaller players.

What is not common however is when you see a G-F LEADING the NBA in DWS and DWS/48.




Did you even READ the stats in the article? seriously. Did you watch the other article or the videos? Did you? Clearly no. I watched Butler on Wade tonight. Wasn't any better than Paul George last year (http://www.foxsportsindiana.com/05/18/12/Georges-defense-the-difference-against-H/landing_pacers.html?blockID=731500).



You wanna know one of the greatest limitations with PPP? The one that the statisticians have spoken loudly about? That's opponent faced. It doesn't take I to consideration if the player spends the vast majority of his time guarding the opposing teams best offensive player or if its in spurts. If he matches up against bench players or not and even though synergy does a great job of tracking every possession it doesn't take into consideration having best defensive front court behind you and as well the best defensive head coach.

George's PPP this past season was .83, Iggy's was .82 that single stat however doesn't mean that Butler is better than they are since you'd then have to say that roughly 100 players in the league are as well. Do you think Iggy and George aren't top 100 defenders and Butler isn't top 80?

No. But I also know that Butler covers the best player every bit as much as them. Deng sometimes does, but when Butler is on the best player, ask anyone how they do. Please. Go for it. And also, you have to again consider WING PLAYERS, not all players, that'd be silly. C's and PF's in this day and age are damn near 100% certain to have better PPP than other guys are.

His PPP is amazing. It's ****ing outstanding, and he DOES DO IT against the best of the best of the best. Look at how he did on James tonight. Look what he did to Johnson and Williams last series when he was moving back and forth between the two of them. The man is EVERY bit as good as either of Iggy or George or pretty much anyone else on the wings. I'm not saying, "Oh he's so much better," I'm saying, "He has a case that he's every bit as good or better and I don't really give a single **** about the DPOY voting saying otherwise."

And you watched Butler on WADE tonight? He was on Wade for like, 3 plays all game. He spent 43.5 of his 48 minutes on the floor covering LeBron and doing an excellent job of it.

PS: Yes, I did see and read it. It doesn't matter. The article doesn't really tell me anything I don't already know and haven't already seen. I'm aware George is a damn good defender. I just don't think he's better than Jimmy Butler is.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 03:14 AM
Dude just give up. The higher your defensive rating is the worst your teams defense is when you're on the floor. That in case you dnt understand stats (which you clearly don't) is not a good. It's common that you'd see bigger players however with lower DRtgs than smaller players.

What is not common however is when you see a G-F LEADING the NBA in DWS and DWS/48.


Then explain this list to me on basketball-reference.com that has the best defensive players with high ratings...I'll wait

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly.html

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 03:17 AM
Then explain this list to me on basketball-reference.com that has the best defensive players with high ratings...I'll wait

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly.html

Wait. How are those high ratings? Those are very low ratings.

waveycrockett
05-07-2013, 03:20 AM
Paul George is an elite defender also but he is not anywhere near as physical as Butler. George is great at stripping the ball tho. There is no way a guy like George could play LeBron as well as Butler did.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:27 AM
Paul George is an elite defender also but he is not anywhere near as physical as Butler. George is great at stripping the ball tho. There is no way a guy like George could play LeBron as well as Butler did.

See my a few posts up about George's D on Bron AND Wade last post season.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 03:27 AM
Wait. How are those high ratings? Those are very low ratings.

No I guess I was wrong about that one, he was right the higher the rating the worse it is; the lower the better.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:29 AM
Then explain this list to me on basketball-reference.com that has the best defensive players with high ratings...I'll wait

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly.html

Dude seriously.

I'll save you the embarrassment because its not worth it. Hear what you should do, pm me when you get the chance and I'll answer any statistical question that you may have that I can answer, if I don't know the answer I know someone who would. You're making yourself look utterly foolish. 1st by saying Paul George isn't elite defensively now this.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 03:32 AM
Dude seriously.

I'll save you the embarrassment because its not worth it. Hear what you should do, pm me when you get the chance and I'll answer any statistical question that you may have that I can answer, if I don't know the answer I know someone who would. You're making yourself look utterly foolish. 1st by saying Paul George isn't elite defensively now this.

Real men don't get embarrased. You were right I can admit that, guess I'm not that much of a nerd as I thought I was; but yea according to the numbers Paul George is pretty good. Just seems a little strange that his is high is all.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:34 AM
No. But I also know that Butler covers the best player every bit as much as them. Deng sometimes does, but when Butler is on the best player, ask anyone how they do. Please. Go for it. And also, you have to again consider WING PLAYERS, not all players, that'd be silly. C's and PF's in this day and age are damn near 100% certain to have better PPP than other guys are.

His PPP is amazing. It's ****ing outstanding, and he DOES DO IT against the best of the best of the best. Look at how he did on James tonight. Look what he did to Johnson and Williams last series when he was moving back and forth between the two of them. The man is EVERY bit as good as either of Iggy or George or pretty much anyone else on the wings. I'm not saying, "Oh he's so much better," I'm saying, "He has a case that he's every bit as good or better and I don't really give a single **** about the DPOY voting saying otherwise."

And you watched Butler on WADE tonight? He was on Wade for like, 3 plays all game. He spent 43.5 of his 48 minutes on the floor covering LeBron and doing an excellent job of it.

PS: Yes, I did see and read it. It doesn't matter. The article doesn't really tell me anything I don't already know and haven't already seen. I'm aware George is a damn good defender. I just don't think he's better than Jimmy Butler is.

What I can't understand is why on earth you keep jumping in arguments that don't concern you with you not even being clear about what topic you're addressing. I stated that Paul George was elite defensively and you quoted me attacking my choice of using DPOY voting as to why Paul George is an elite defender. I defended my stance now you're saying that he is indeed very good. Then why on earth would you quote me when I was clearly speaking of the level on which Paul George plays his D and not whether or not he's better than Jimmy (which I also believe is true after watching him play so much over the past two seasons).

You quoted me on where Gorge ranked not who's better. That is why I brought FACTS to back my argument.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:36 AM
]Real men don't get embarrased. You were right I can admit that,[/B] guess I'm not that much of a nerd as I thought I was; but yea according to the numbers Paul George is pretty good. Just seems a little strange that his is high is all.

Full respect dude. That's what's lacking majorly here on PSD. :cheers:

Doogolas
05-07-2013, 03:39 AM
What I can't understand is why on earth you keep jumping in arguments that don't concern you with you not even being clear about what topic you're addressing. I stated that Paul George was elite defensively and you quoted me attacking my choice of using DPOY voting as to why Paul George is an elite defender. I defended my stance now you're saying that he is indeed very good. Then why on earth would you quote me when I was clearly speaking of the level on which Paul George plays his D and not whether or not he's better than Jimmy (which I also believe is true after watching him play so much over the past two seasons).

You quoted me on where Gorge ranked not who's better. That is why I brought FACTS to back my argument.

Because it's 3AM and I'm tired but can't really sleep? It kills time. There's not really a lot of logic to the actual things I do. Also, because pointing out any kind of award voting as proof of anything is silly. Award voting, in general, sucks ***. I would scoff at anyone, anywhere, anytime that used any award voting as an attempt to prove anything.

All the same, you're free to believe what you want, and I don't disagree that George is a great defender. I also don't see why you capitalized the word facts. It's not an acronym. I also have plenty of facts, but again, it's 3AM and I'm lazy a large part of the time. I actually am going to bed now though, because I'm super tired and have class and work tomorrow. But it was quite legitimately fun!

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:42 AM
Because it's 3AM and I'm tired but can't really sleep? It kills time. There's not really a lot of logic to the actual things I do. Also, because pointing out any kind of award voting as proof of anything is silly. Award voting, in general, sucks ***. I would scoff at anyone, anywhere, anytime that used any award voting as an attempt to prove anything.

All the same, you're free to believe what you want, and I don't disagree that George is a great defender. I also don't see why you capitalized the word facts. It's not an acronym. I also have plenty of facts, but again, it's 3AM and I'm lazy a large part of the time. I actually am going to bed now though, because I'm super tired and have class and work tomorrow. But it was quite legitimately fun!

Was Derrick Rose an elite player in 2011?

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 03:42 AM
Full respect dude. That's what's lacking majorly here on PSD. :cheers:

No problem, but I do watch basketball and know everyone's game in the league; just don't know advanced statistics that well. Even if the numbers don't say it, he's an elite defender to me; I've never seen Lebron flustered like that even with George on him. We can agree to disagree.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 03:50 AM
No problem, but I do watch basketball and know everyone's game in the league; just don't know advanced statistics that well. Even if the numbers don't say it, he's an elite defender to me; I've never seen Lebron flustered like that even with George on him. We can agree to disagree.

Thing is though in the 1st 3 games last year George did a number on LBJ when the matched up. I don't know if you can't remember or you only remember Granger trying to get in his head but George did as good a job as anyone at guarding LeBron last post season. IIRC I read that LeBron averaged 16 points per36 with George on the floor in the 1st three games of that series. For the entire series he averaged 22.8 per36 when George was on the floor ne 28.6 when he wasn't.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 03:57 AM
Thing is though in the 1st 3 games last year George did a number on LBJ when the matched up. I don't know if you can't remember or you only remember Granger trying to get in his head but George did as good a job as anyone at guarding LeBron last post season. IIRC I read that LeBron averaged 16 points per36 with George on the floor in the 1st three games of that series. For the entire series he averaged 22.8 per36 when George was on the floor ne 28.6 when he wasn't.

This is why advanced statistics are strange to me and unreliable in certain situations. Take the DPOY for the past two seasons; Chandler and Gasol. Both of them had a 106 drating (in the playoffs), which as we've noted earlier isn't great in the slightest but they had high w/s or w/s per 48. Its confusing at times

I'm not really arguing for Paul George though, if the numbers back up his case thats fine.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 04:10 AM
This is why advanced statistics are strange to me and unreliable in certain situations. Take the DPOY for the past two seasons; Chandler and Gasol. Both of them had a 106 drating, which as we've noted earlier isn't great in the slightest but they had high w/s or w/s per 48.

I'm not really arguing for Paul George though, if the numbers back up his case thats fine.

Well TBH the defensive #s featured on BBRef aren't really the best around. Bbref's DRtg is probably the worst advanced tool to try to ascertain a players defensive value as it rates the teams DRtg when the player is on the floor no matter what support he had around him. The better your support the better your DRtg is going to be the worse well you get it. When Gasol comes off the floor his team gets 6.5 points worse per 100 possessions defensively according to 82games.com and its too bad NBA.com doesn't have their #s updated because according to them the Grizz's DRtg was a 97.7 with Marc as compared to 102.4 without him around the 2/3 mark of the season.

As for Tyson I think him changing the culture of the Knicks by being the elite paint protector (Knicks were ranked #1 in terms of paint protection last season) really made him the best bet for DPOY despite the fact that Garnett had the better defensive metrics all the way around.

smiddy012
05-07-2013, 04:53 AM
Because it's 3AM and I'm tired but can't really sleep? It kills time. There's not really a lot of logic to the actual things I do. Also, because pointing out any kind of award voting as proof of anything is silly. Award voting, in general, sucks ***. I would scoff at anyone, anywhere, anytime that used any award voting as an attempt to prove anything.

All the same, you're free to believe what you want, and I don't disagree that George is a great defender. I also don't see why you capitalized the word facts. It's not an acronym. I also have plenty of facts, but again, it's 3AM and I'm lazy a large part of the time. I actually am going to bed now though, because I'm super tired and have class and work tomorrow. But it was quite legitimately fun!

*starts slowly clapping*

xILLN355
05-07-2013, 05:03 AM
Well TBH the defensive #s featured on BBRef aren't really the best around. Bbref's DRtg is probably the worst advanced tool to try to ascertain a players defensive value as it rates the teams DRtg when the player is on the floor no matter what support he had around him. The better your support the better your DRtg is going to be the worse well you get it. When Gasol comes off the floor his team gets 6.5 points worse per 100 possessions defensively according to 82games.com and its too bad NBA.com doesn't have their #s updated because according to them the Grizz's DRtg was a 97.7 with Marc as compared to 102.4 without him around the 2/3 mark of the season.

As for Tyson I think him changing the culture of the Knicks by being the elite paint protector (Knicks were ranked #1 in terms of paint protection last season) really made him the best bet for DPOY despite the fact that Garnett had the better defensive metrics all the way around.

All hail Swashcuff

Knicks21
05-07-2013, 06:02 AM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Or not move him at all? Moving an all star wing for an all star wing is pointless.

mdm692
05-07-2013, 09:09 AM
Or not move him at all? Moving an all star wing for an all star wing is pointless.Not if the wing you are getting in return is better offensively.

colinskik
05-07-2013, 09:53 AM
There is no "mini" rose about him on offense. He can put up 30 every night easy. The only place he isn't Rose's equal is on defense. The only way to stop Nate Rob is have him work hard on the other end and unless Wade starts playing some PG the Miami Heat are screwed.


He can't keep his scoring pace up. Just cause he lit you guys up doesn't mean he can do it on a nightly basis. Plus, his D is practically non-existant since he only comes up to most guys' bellybuttons.

DaBUU
05-07-2013, 09:54 AM
I like to think of Jimmy as Thibs' Frankenstein monster. He was the 29th pick and a lump of athletic clay when Thibs got his hands in him. Now look what we got.

DR_1
05-07-2013, 11:57 AM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Deng is an All-Star wing :laugh2:

ugottabjoshinme
05-07-2013, 12:03 PM
Move Deng for an all star caliber wing and slide Butler to SF. Give Korver a call again this off-season. Resign Robinson and amnesty Boozer.

Deng is an all star wing. They aren't going to get a better wing by trading him.

Ezio
05-07-2013, 12:40 PM
Reason why some want to trade Deng is to cause then we will be able to maybe sign Nate and Marco back for next season.

mdm692
05-07-2013, 12:41 PM
Deng is an All-Star wing :laugh2:
Butler = Younger, cheaper version of Deng. Deng can be moved for a better offensive wing like a Danny Granger or even an Iguodala. Perfect scenario would be getting a HEALTHY Eric Gordon for him. If you guys are ok being second fiddle to Miami that's fine I just know there are ways to improve the team to surpass Miami.

PacersForLife
05-07-2013, 12:45 PM
since when is Paul George an elite defender?

Lol.

Swashcuff
05-07-2013, 12:48 PM
Butler = Younger, cheaper version of Deng. Deng can be moved for a better offensive wing like a Danny Granger or even an Iguodala. Perfect scenario would be getting a HEALTHY Eric Gordon for him. If you guys are ok being second fiddle to Miami that's fine I just know there are ways to improve the team to surpass Miami.

Healthy Eric Gordon was my thoughts exactly. Problem is when you say that and you don't give examples people are going to find your idea laughable.

mdm692
05-07-2013, 01:01 PM
Healthy Eric Gordon was my thoughts exactly. Problem is when you say that and you don't give examples people are going to find your idea laughable.

People find Gordon laughable lol.

DR_1
05-07-2013, 01:03 PM
Lol.

I hate the Pacers but what the heck lol. Paul George is an absolute lockdown defender.

DR_1
05-07-2013, 01:04 PM
Butler = Younger, cheaper version of Deng. Deng can be moved for a better offensive wing like a Danny Granger or even an Iguodala. Perfect scenario would be getting a HEALTHY Eric Gordon for him. If you guys are ok being second fiddle to Miami that's fine I just know there are ways to improve the team to surpass Miami.

I agree I wouldn't mind trading Deng for Gordon.

TeamSeattle
05-07-2013, 01:19 PM
I hate the Pacers but what the heck lol. Paul George is an absolute lockdown defender.

Yep he's the greatest of all time

Stinkyoutsider
05-07-2013, 01:54 PM
I'm glad Jimmy is young so he can handle the uptick in minutes.

He doesn't even looked fazed out there. Seems like he can handle it so Thibbs will test that while Deng is out.

abe_froman
05-07-2013, 02:13 PM
Deng dropped to 7th in the NBA draft after a great college career as freshman because his lack of athleticism. Stop taking it as a criticism.
no,deng dropped to 7th because he was a slasher with no outside shot,his atheism was highly touted his draft writeup said that he relied on his athleticism to much(look it up),that was his great flaws that made him drop