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Kenny
05-05-2013, 08:47 AM
Let me start by saying I love Paul as a player. I think he is the best PG in the nba. But it's amazing how everyone overlooks his 16-24 career playoff record. Never getting out of the 2nd round. People love bringing up Melo as a playoff failure.

Well what resume would you rather have? A guy who has made the playoffs all 10 years of his career and in atleast 4 of those series had no business against the team he was playing or a guy that has missed the playoffs 3 out of 8 years. And has never made a confrence final. Chris paul has put up great numbers but it hasn't translated to success.

It's funny how people call Shane Battier a winner but before last year he had the 6th lowest winning percentage in postseason history.

If the Thunder don't win a championship it's always someone elses fault but Durant. Lebron never got that pass.

My point is the media picks and chooses who they like and dislike and run with a story and the fans eat it up.

waveycrockett
05-05-2013, 08:50 AM
too busy criticizing Derrick Rose and Deron to notice

c.c.
05-05-2013, 08:55 AM
Don't worry, Chris Paul will be a winner next year when he's wearing that Rockets red

IndyRealist
05-05-2013, 09:37 AM
Because everyone recognizes that:
1) Chris Paul is the best PG in the league
2) The majority of teams he's been on have either been mediocre, or plagued by injury.
3) It is difficult to build a championship level team around a point guard instead of a big man.
4) Chris Paul is a nice guy.

2-ONE-5
05-05-2013, 09:45 AM
wait why did you compare him to Battier? Battier never led a team or ha played close to that kind of role before. That said your main point is right i just dont get why Battier, whose a role player, was mentioned

seikou8
05-05-2013, 09:59 AM
Because everyone recognizes that:
1) Chris Paul is the best PG in the league
2) The majority of teams he's been on have either been mediocre, or plagued by injury.
3) It is difficult to build a championship level team around a point guard instead of a big man.
4) Chris Paul is a nice guy.

this

Vikingfan84
05-05-2013, 10:06 AM
CP3's master plan:

1. Force a trade to get a good return for New Orleans.
2. Agree to resign with LA at the end of season to push the trade through.
3. Tell LA it's not a sure thing.
4. Sign with Hornets now that they have young nucleus that will be even better with a return of CP3.

That was CP3's plan all along.

tr3ymill3r
05-05-2013, 10:12 AM
It is by no means a fair comparison, however Melo is called out because he is supposed to be the best scorer in the league, and he is the type of guy that you can ask to go drop 50+ and you don't sound crazy. Where as, could Paul drop 50+, maybe? Surely not as easy as Melo though. Also CP3 is in charge of getting everyone else involved. Can CP3 put you in the right spot for you to get the best possible shot, absolutely, he got Tyson Chandler paid coming out of NOLA, because Dallas thought they were really going to get a 15,10,5 guy. The next best player on the Clippers is Blake Griffin, and he has yet to evolve passed a highlight dunker, which is why CP3 wanted Kevin Garnett.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2013, 10:14 AM
:laugh: Did you even watch the last game? He had 28 points / 8 assists / 0 turnovers.

And you think people should call him a failure? He was leading the league in playoff PER at 29.3 when his team got eliminated, you can't put that on him.

Meaze_Gibson
05-05-2013, 12:21 PM
:laugh: Did you even watch the last game? He had 28 points / 8 assists / 0 turnovers.

And you think people should call him a failure? He was leading the league in playoff PER at 29.3 when his team got eliminated, you can't put that on him.

When Melo played for Denver and lost to the Jazz in first round, He had a great series. Nevertheless he was still blamed. The OP is rright. Chris Paul is protected but Other players are criticized. Last year he played terrible against memphis, The year against the nuggets he played terrible. In the playoffs, Besides the game winner, he rarely takes over the game in the fourth with crucial minutes left in the game. Also his playoff defense is severely overrated. I think the OP is correct that CP gets a pass while other superstars do not.

torocan
05-05-2013, 12:24 PM
CP3 would probably get less of a pass if he played poorly in the play offs (he played well), but more importantly if his coach wasn't Vinny DelNegro.

If CP3 had a top flight coach, I doubt he'd get as much of a pass.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2013, 12:26 PM
When Melo played for Denver and lost to the Jazz in first round, He had a great series. Nevertheless he was still blamed. The OP is rright. Chris Paul is protected but Other players are criticized. Last year he played terrible against memphis, The year against the nuggets he played terrible. In the playoffs, Besides the game winner, he rarely takes over the game in the fourth with crucial minutes left in the game. Also his playoff defense is severely overrated. I think the OP is correct that CP gets a pass while other superstars do not.

That says more about scrutiny on Melo than on CP3 getting a pass and if you really want to compare production in the playoffs of CP3 and Melo then feel free because Melo can't hold Paul's jock. Chris Paul's teams consistently outproduce their talent levels because of him. He gets a pass because overall he plays extremely well in the playoffs and its his teammates who don't carry their weight.

tredigs
05-05-2013, 12:27 PM
ISO-ball Melo kind of wants that blame, if you ask me. It's the offense he strives for and it's all or nothing with that guy - unfortunately for him it's generally nothing. Cp3 is the consummate team player and if he doesn't have the contending team (which he never has), then he will lose. Simple as that. Paul was still a genius on the court though, he was so fun to watch, even in a 1st round exit (this isn't the East, it's a different level of basketball). It's too bad Blake was injured + went down and that team fell apart.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 12:35 PM
Cuz he actually shows up. Melo has gone ghost too often

Meaze_Gibson
05-05-2013, 12:40 PM
That says more about scrutiny on Melo than on CP3 getting a pass and if you really want to compare production in the playoffs of CP3 and Melo then feel free because Melo can't hold Paul's jock. Chris Paul's teams consistently outproduce their talent levels because of him. He gets a pass because overall he plays extremely well in the playoffs and its his teammates who don't carry their weight.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Overall, Paul has had two playoff seasons (out of 5) were he has matched his expected output.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html
Melo has had 4 playoff seasons (out of 10) where he has matched his expected output

Both of them are not these consistent playoff superstars that people perceive. The only difference is that Melo gets bashed for it and Paul does not.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 12:45 PM
:laugh: Did you even watch the last game? He had 28 points / 8 assists / 0 turnovers.

And you think people should call him a failure? He was leading the league in playoff PER at 29.3 when his team got eliminated, you can't put that on him.

When Melo played for Denver and lost to the Jazz in first round, He had a great series. Nevertheless he was still blamed. The OP is rright. Chris Paul is protected but Other players are criticized. Last year he played terrible against memphis, The year against the nuggets he played terrible. In the playoffs, Besides the game winner, he rarely takes over the game in the fourth with crucial minutes left in the game. Also his playoff defense is severely overrated. I think the OP is correct that CP gets a pass while other superstars do not.
Great? I font remember the numbers being great but look at the ENTIRE situation. CP3 had an injured team while going up against an ELITE defensive squad. Whereas Melo went up against an injured Utah team and failed to produce at an elite level.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2013, 12:51 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Overall, Paul has had two playoff seasons (out of 5) were he has matched his expected output.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html
Melo has had 4 playoff seasons (out of 10) where he has matched his expected output

Both of them are not these consistent playoff superstars that people perceive. The only difference is that Melo gets bashed for it and Paul does not.

The fact that their "expected outputs" are completely different already skews your whole post.

CP3's Regular Season:
PER - 25.6
TS% - 57.5

CP3's Playoff Stats:
PER - 25.5
TS% - 57.2

Melo's Regular Season:
PER - 20.8
TS% - 54.5

Melo's Playoff Stats:
PER - 19.7
TS% - 51.3

Not only does Chris Paul's stats remain virtually identically but Melo has a significant fall in scoring effeciency. Plus there is still that tiny little aspect that Paul's effeciency numbers are ... ya know... like way better than Melo's in the first place.

rocket
05-05-2013, 12:58 PM
Because he's the best PG in the NBA?

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2013, 01:02 PM
I think the thing is that the teams that CP3 gets into the playoffs, he makes SO much better than they already are. The Clippers went from 32-50 without CP3 to 56-26. You can't create that kind of turnaround without being an MVP player. The thing is, this season at least, he had no supporting cast once Griffin went down. Last year they made it to the second round where they lost to one of the best teams in the last 15 years. As a rookie he helped the Hornets to a 20-game improvement (from 18 wins to 38 wins) and then He turned Chandler into an offensive option and got the Hornets 56 wins and pushed the Spurs to 7 games in the second round. He helped David West become an All-Star.

This guy has an amazing resume. When you look at the lack of talent he has played with and consider how much better he made them, there is no reason to blame him for anything. He puts them in a position to win. When the playoffs roll around though, you need more than a guy like CP3 to win, you need support. It is why LBJ went to Miami. Why Kobe demanded a trade before LAL picked up Gasol. Has CP3 ever had a player as good as Shaq or Gasol with him? Or as good as Wade and Bosh on the same team? Has he had a combination of players like Allen, Pierce and Garnett on his roster? No. The best he's had is West and Griffen, and this year he didn't have either in the playoffs.

There is not reason to blame this early exit on CP3. He got them where they are. He did so much to help this team win. He simply does not have the pieces around him.

Meaze_Gibson
05-05-2013, 01:09 PM
The fact that their "expected outputs" are completely different already skews your whole post.

CP3's Regular Season:
PER - 25.6
TS% - 57.5

CP3's Playoff Stats:
PER - 25.5
TS% - 57.2

Melo's Regular Season:
PER - 20.8
TS% - 54.5

Melo's Playoff Stats:
PER - 19.7
TS% - 51.3

Not only does Chris Paul's stats remain virtually identically but Melo has a significant fall in scoring effeciency. Plus there is still that tiny little aspect that Paul's effeciency numbers are ... ya know... like way better than Melo's in the first place.

Oh I agree that Paul is a better player. But that is not my argument. My argument is his overall playoff performance and record has been given a pass. The excuses that are given for him (injuries, the opposite team was much better, etc) are accepted while other players such as Melo, Mcgrady and others are not.

You showed the comparison of this years playoffs and regular season stats. I have seen ALL of his season and playoff season stats. When you really take a look at all of his playoff situations and compare them with Melo's in relation to reaching their own regular season standard, they are not as far off.

smith&wesson
05-05-2013, 01:09 PM
Paul and Melo are both sick players. Honestly alot of factors play in post season success.. Seeding, injuries, etc. if your 2nd best player gets hurt in a series it's not surprising if you don't come out on top.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 01:26 PM
Oh I agree that Paul is a better player. But that is not my argument. My argument is his overall playoff performance and record has been given a pass. The excuses that are given for him (injuries, the opposite team was much better, etc) are accepted while other players such as Melo, Mcgrady and others are not.

You showed the comparison of this years playoffs and regular season stats. I have seen ALL of his season and playoff season stats. When you really take a look at all of his playoff situations and compare them with Melo's in relation to reaching their own regular season standard, they are not as far off.
When dealing with expected rates, you have to take into account the strength of the opposing teams defense. CP3 and Melo are not very comparable. Melo has gone ghost against the simplest of defensive gameplans against a middling defensive team like the Clippers. I was there when he let skinny Q-Ross get in his head. I dont blame him for losing, but man did he go ghost. I can forgive injury riddled performances, but to my knowledge he was healthy that year and still struggled.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2013, 01:48 PM
Oh I agree that Paul is a better player. But that is not my argument. My argument is his overall playoff performance and record has been given a pass. The excuses that are given for him (injuries, the opposite team was much better, etc) are accepted while other players such as Melo, Mcgrady and others are not.

You showed the comparison of this years playoffs and regular season stats. I have seen ALL of his season and playoff season stats. When you really take a look at all of his playoff situations and compare them with Melo's in relation to reaching their own regular season standard, they are not as far off.

My comparison was their CAREER regular season and playoff statistics. Paul's overall resume sets a higher bar than Melo's ever will and his playoffs match his regular season totals. To be honest, comparing the two seems ridiculous to me. Melo's stats drop. Paul's stay the same. Melo is not even on Paul's level. End of story.

John Walls Era
05-05-2013, 01:50 PM
Because everyone recognizes that:
1) Chris Paul is the best PG in the league
2) The majority of teams he's been on have either been mediocre, or plagued by injury.
3) It is difficult to build a championship level team around a point guard instead of a big man.
4) Chris Paul is a nice guy.

Hes kind of a dick

Jarvo
05-05-2013, 02:29 PM
Because everyone recognizes that:
1) Chris Paul is the best PG in the league
2) The majority of teams he's been on have either been mediocre, or plagued by injury.
3) It is difficult to build a championship level team around a point guard instead of a big man.
4) Chris Paul is a nice guy.

Rondo is better :shrug:
Not how PSD say it as Blake is damn good and Bledsoe
Don't wan to hear it
Chris Paul is an ******* crybaby baby back *****.

nolafan33
05-05-2013, 03:03 PM
CP3 will be a huge hypocrite if he resigns in LA.

c.c.
05-05-2013, 03:14 PM
CP3 will be a huge hypocrite if he resigns in LA.

Lol an very huge one

Meaze_Gibson
05-05-2013, 03:21 PM
When dealing with expected rates, you have to take into account the strength of the opposing teams defense. CP3 and Melo are not very comparable. Melo has gone ghost against the simplest of defensive gameplans against a middling defensive team like the Clippers. I was there when he let skinny Q-Ross get in his head. I dont blame him for losing, but man did he go ghost. I can forgive injury riddled performances, but to my knowledge he was healthy that year and still struggled.

But the clippers defense was not "middling" that year. They were an above average defensive team 8th best defensive rating in NBA. Ironically, the 09 Nuggs, also had an 8th best defensive rating and the beat the Hornets with Paul being drastically outplayed by Chauncey Billups. Plus, in my opinion, you shouldnt write off a 21 year old star as playoff dud that early in his career, especially, when most stars dont reach playoff status until 22 or 23 (bron is exception)

But the facts about Melo's duds are exploited while Paul being on a team with the worst playoff loss in history is kept at a secret. When Melo or Mcgrady shoot low percentages on the team they are criticized. When paul has 4 points in a 36 minutes in a playoff game it is overlooked. Melo playing injured against two of the best defensive teams in this era (Boston and Miami) with a depleted squad gets no excuse. While Paul who played injured against Grizzlies last year in a subpar performance is excused.

I can understand where the OP gets this opinion. As stated, Paul, Melo, and others, for whatever reason, are not a players one can be totally confident about when the playoffs arise. The difference is that Paul gets a pass.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 03:37 PM
CP3 will be a huge hypocrite if he resigns in LA.

Lol an very huge one
How so?

Hawkeye15
05-05-2013, 03:58 PM
When Melo played for Denver and lost to the Jazz in first round, He had a great series. Nevertheless he was still blamed. The OP is rright. Chris Paul is protected but Other players are criticized. Last year he played terrible against memphis, The year against the nuggets he played terrible. In the playoffs, Besides the game winner, he rarely takes over the game in the fourth with crucial minutes left in the game. Also his playoff defense is severely overrated. I think the OP is correct that CP gets a pass while other superstars do not.

Melo's play has never been as good as Paul's in the playoffs is why. Melo has also played with clearly more talented rosters, while Paul willed some pretty average to bad teams into the playoffs, minus this season, and then injuries killed his squad

b@llhog24
05-05-2013, 04:02 PM
Let me start by saying I love Paul as a player. I think he is the best PG in the nba. But it's amazing how everyone overlooks his 16-24 career playoff record. Never getting out of the 2nd round. People love bringing up Melo as a playoff failure.

Because their performance/production/roster support is not the same.


Well what resume would you rather have? A guy who has made the playoffs all 10 years of his career and in atleast 4 of those series had no business against the team he was playing or a guy that has missed the playoffs 3 out of 8 years. And has never made a confrence final. Chris paul has put up great numbers but it hasn't translated to success.


All things being equal Paul is the better player so give me him.


It's funny how people call Shane Battier a winner but before last year he had the 6th lowest winning percentage in postseason history.


It has more to do with his style of play. He does all the "little things" to help a team win, yet if your production levels don't coincide with your intangibles nobody really cares. All you've done is prove how overrated the terms "intangibles" and being a "winner" are.


If the Thunder don't win a championship it's always someone elses fault but Durant. Lebron never got that pass.


They don't play in the same conference.


My point is the media picks and chooses who they like and dislike and run with a story and the fans eat it up.

Well Melo is perceived to be the bigger "superstar" in comparison to Paul. Basically the media places expectations on Melo that he hasn't earned.


Because everyone recognizes that:
1) Chris Paul is the best PG in the league
2) The majority of teams he's been on have either been mediocre, or plagued by injury.
3) It is difficult to build a championship level team around a point guard instead of a big man.
4) Chris Paul is a nice guy.

This and...


:laugh: Did you even watch the last game? He had 28 points / 8 assists / 0 turnovers.

And you think people should call him a failure? He was leading the league in playoff PER at 29.3 when his team got eliminated, you can't put that on him.

This.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 04:03 PM
But the clippers defense was not "middling" that year. They were an above average defensive team 8th best defensive rating in NBA. Ironically, the 09 Nuggs, also had an 8th best defensive rating and the beat the Hornets with Paul being drastically outplayed by Chauncey Billups.
Middling may not have been the appropriate word but subjectively, we werent a powerhouse. And CP3's team was falling apart, I forget what was going on but I remember Tyson/Peja could barely play and CP3 was hobbled. It took a truly historic season from him to get his team in the postseason. Its no coincidence that it was around that time that the injuries began to mount for him, he was worn down by that point.


Plus, in my opinion, you shouldnt write off a 21 year old star as playoff dud that early in his career, especially, when most stars dont reach playoff status until 22 or 23 (bron is exception)
Thats his shortcoming tho. CP3 was the same age when he made his debut and actually rose his level of play. At least Melo had the experience of 2 other playoff series. And he was totally inefficient that series, well beyond any reasonable dropoff. I would expect such a performance if he was facing an elite D and/or hobbled by some sort of injury. But to my knowledge, neither was the case. He just didn't have it mentally at that point. Thats far more embarrassing than CP3 playing through injury with an injury depleted cast against a superior team.


But the facts about Melo's duds are exploited while Paul being on a team with the worst playoff loss in history is kept at a secret. When Melo or Mcgrady shoot low percentages on the team they are criticized. When paul has 4 points in a 36 minutes in a playoff game it is overlooked. Melo playing injured against two of the best defensive teams in this era (Boston and Miami) with a depleted squad gets no excuse. While Paul who played injured against Grizzlies last year in a subpar performance is excused.
Dont see the comparison to Tmac, he finds other ways to dominate, and he carried a bigger load than either of them, dominated on both ends, and still put up great stats. Melo is likely to go ghost in such a situation.
As for CP3, its kind of hard to cast blame when his team wins the series against a superior squad with him gutting it out through injury.


I can understand where the OP gets this opinion. As stated, Paul, Melo, and others, for whatever reason, are not a players one can be totally confident about when the playoffs arise. The difference is that Paul gets a pass.
Maybe, but these are different shades of grey. For a series, if healthy, CP3 is the kind of guy who can put up huge numbers against an elite defensive team even with his team missing its best players, whereas Melo is more erratic and has had worse blunders in defeat. Tmac bested them all IMO, simply because his defensive effort in the post season was inhuman.

Look at this season, CP3 did his job, our offense was great, he just cant defend the big boys down low.

Even this year, CP3 has played better in defeat than Melo has in success.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 04:06 PM
Melo's play has never been as good as Paul's in the playoffs is why. Melo has also played with clearly more talented rosters, while Paul willed some pretty average to bad teams into the playoffs, minus this season, and then injuries killed his squad
Hes admitted that, hes mostly talking about the projected dropoff Reg. to Post season.

b@llhog24
05-05-2013, 04:11 PM
When Melo played for Denver and lost to the Jazz in first round, He had a great series. Nevertheless he was still blamed. The OP is rright. Chris Paul is protected but Other players are criticized. Last year he played terrible against memphis, The year against the nuggets he played terrible. In the playoffs, Besides the game winner, he rarely takes over the game in the fourth with crucial minutes left in the game. Also his playoff defense is severely overrated. I think the OP is correct that CP gets a pass while other superstars do not.

As a Melo fan, I never understood why he got flack for not winning against the Jazz when he was the only one who showed up/exceeded his expected output.


That says more about scrutiny on Melo than on CP3 getting a pass and if you really want to compare production in the playoffs of CP3 and Melo then feel free because Melo can't hold Paul's jock. Chris Paul's teams consistently outproduce their talent levels because of him. He gets a pass because overall he plays extremely well in the playoffs and its his teammates who don't carry their weight.


My comparison was their CAREER regular season and playoff statistics. Paul's overall resume sets a higher bar than Melo's ever will and his playoffs match his regular season totals. To be honest, comparing the two seems ridiculous to me. Melo's stats drop. Paul's stay the same. Melo is not even on Paul's level. End of story.

^^Great posts.

KingPosey
05-05-2013, 04:24 PM
Shane Battier lol?

NYKalltheway
05-05-2013, 04:24 PM
Why don't they team up and see who gets a pass and who doesn't? :D (Amare for CP3 straight up hahahaha :p)

Meaze_Gibson
05-05-2013, 04:38 PM
Dont see the comparison to Tmac, he finds other ways to dominate, and he carried a bigger load than either of them, dominated on both ends, and still put up great stats. Melo is likely to go ghost in such a situation.
As for CP3, its kind of hard to cast blame when his team wins the series against a superior squad with him gutting it out through injury.


Maybe, but these are different shades of grey. For a series, if healthy, CP3 is the kind of guy who can put up huge numbers against an elite defensive team even with his team missing its best players, whereas Melo is more erratic and has had worse blunders in defeat. Tmac bested them all IMO, simply because his defensive effort in the post season was inhuman.

Look at this season, CP3 did his job, our offense was great, he just cant defend the big boys down low.

Even this year, CP3 has played better in defeat than Melo has in success.

Tmac is mentioned because he is perceptionally viewed as a playoff loser when, in fact, he is a better playoff performer than Chris Paul. Mcgrady also played through injuries but never got a pass because his squad was weak like Paul does. I remind you, we are not talking who is better, we are talking about the excuses of one player being valid while a player with a similar situation is shot down.

Also , I am not sure that paul played better in defeat. I believe he could have been tons more agressive in games 3 and 4. I mean dude had a 8 pt 4 assist game in this past series yet nothing from media. follows it up with a very average 19 and 6Can you imagine if Melo had an 8pt 4 assist game lol In addition, Mike Conley almost played him to a stand still and why isnt he playin at least 38 to 40 minutes a night? Stats look a certain way but when it boils down, They both had equal good games and bad games. Paul's bad game is 8 and 4. Melos is 21, 7, and 5. Both are not as consistent as fans hope but Paul escapes, again, with no marks on his resume.

numba1CHANGsta
05-05-2013, 04:40 PM
CP3 has played with crappy teams that's why he gets a pass. The Clippers were a overrated roster to begin with, CP3 made them all that good but when Griffin got hurt it was pretty much over

Chronz
05-05-2013, 05:03 PM
Also , I am not sure that paul played better in defeat. I believe he could have been tons more agressive in games 3 and 4. I mean dude had a 8 pt 4 assist game in this past series yet nothing from media.
I dont watch much TV but I recall him getting **** for it. I much rather focus on the entirety of a series than isolated games. CP3 played well above himself in Games 1-2, even hitting the most difficult layup to win a game. Usually when things like this happen, the player has to come crashing down to reality at some point. Technically, any star that loses a series could have been "more aggressive" but in the end, our offense was not the reason we lost, we put up great numbers as a team against an elite defensive squad despite our injuries. Thats all I could ask for. CP3 cant defend the bigs.


follows it up with a very average 19 and 6
Average for him is still a very efficient 19-6 (TS% 625, 6.2 TO%).


Can you imagine if Melo had an 8pt 4 assist game lol
They have different games, if CP3 shot sub 30% and relegated our offense to crap as a result, we would have gotten swept.


Mike Conley almost played him to a stand still
Conley put up 17ppg 55TS% while dealing with a defense whos primary concern was scrambling on their bigs down low.

CP3 on the other hand played against superior defenders (both on the perimeter and the interior) and got very little support from his main stars, and STILL put up more PTS on much higher efficiency. Not seeing how its even contextually close.


and why isnt he playin at least 38 to 40 minutes a night?
Because CP3's best supporting player, was his backup. As the series was slipping away Bledsoe played less and less, and CP3 was putting up heavier minutes. Thats why depth matters less in the playoffs, because even if you have a great backup, hes your backup for a reason. Your teams strength of taking advantage of the oppositions bench is less of a factor. I dont blame Vinny, Bledsoe was worthy of getting a chance because if he has it going, hes a true X-Factor.



Stats look a certain way but when it boils down, They both had equal good games and bad games. Paul's bad game is 8 and 4. Melos is 21, 7, and 5. Both are not as consistent as fans hope but Paul escapes, again, with no marks on his resume.
Both my eyes and the stats disagree, they were definitely not equal. CP3 got our offense humming and his added agressiveness with no loss in efficiency was the reason why were able to even compete. Melo on the other hand was shooting 30% for much of the series, luckily he had a team that could suppress the opposing teams scoring while winning the rebounding battle and giving him extra possessions to get his pt total up.

FOBolous
05-05-2013, 05:03 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Overall, Paul has had two playoff seasons (out of 5) were he has matched his expected output.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html
Melo has had 4 playoff seasons (out of 10) where he has matched his expected output

Both of them are not these consistent playoff superstars that people perceive. The only difference is that Melo gets bashed for it and Paul does not.

Cause melo plays iso ball so it's on him. Paul plays team ball therefore it isn't only on him..

JeffG20
05-05-2013, 07:40 PM
CP3's master plan:

1. Force a trade to get a good return for New Orleans.
2. Agree to resign with LA at the end of season to push the trade through.
3. Tell LA it's not a sure thing.
4. Sign with Hornets now that they have young nucleus that will be even better with a return of CP3.

That was CP3's plan all along.

that would be awesome.... wont happen but i'd laugh if it did

JeffG20
05-05-2013, 07:41 PM
double post *

Hawkeye15
05-05-2013, 07:45 PM
Hes admitted that, hes mostly talking about the projected dropoff Reg. to Post season.

Paul's production doesn't drop, and he hasn't played with the talent Melo has, outside this year when injuries hit them late.

el hidalgo
05-05-2013, 07:45 PM
:laugh: Did you even watch the last game? He had 28 points / 8 assists / 0 turnovers.

And you think people should call him a failure? He was leading the league in 0 at 29.3 when his team got eliminated, you can't put that on him.

please, enough with the hollinger garbage. per is not a good stat. it favors players like CP3 and is biased against players like kobe.

OceanSpray
05-05-2013, 07:49 PM
I agree but due to the fact that Paul doesn't have the star power of other NBA stars such as Durant, James, Carmelo, Wade, Rose, Kobe, etc. No doubt, Paul needs a ring asap because he's got a tough way to go against up and coming PG's such as Curry. I don't know what the statistics are but Paul never had a good team in New Orleans and has failed in the playoffs with the Clippers.

Green_Monster
05-05-2013, 07:51 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Overall, Paul has had two playoff seasons (out of 5) were he has matched his expected output.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html
Melo has had 4 playoff seasons (out of 10) where he has matched his expected output

Both of them are not these consistent playoff superstars that people perceive. The only difference is that Melo gets bashed for it and Paul does not.

Look at the advanced playoff stats.

el hidalgo
05-05-2013, 08:06 PM
as a basketball purist am i obligated to hate PG's that are scorers and not traditional, pass first PG's?

b@llhog24
05-05-2013, 08:36 PM
please, enough with the hollinger garbage. per is not a good stat. it favors players like CP3 and is biased against players like kobe.

False, PER favors players with high usage rates.

Chronz
05-05-2013, 09:53 PM
False, PER favors players with high usage rates.

Hes joking breh

Chronz
05-05-2013, 09:54 PM
Paul's production doesn't drop, and he hasn't played with the talent Melo has, outside this year when injuries hit them late.
There was that Denver series when CP3 played horrendously. But yes we can name many more from Melo.

OceanSpray
05-05-2013, 09:58 PM
For those thinking CP3 doesn't get a pass, why is it James never got a pass? What's your argument for that?

Rain City
05-05-2013, 10:08 PM
CP3 is a new school primadonna in my book.

Meaze_Gibson
05-05-2013, 10:12 PM
I dont watch much TV but I recall him getting **** for it. I much rather focus on the entirety of a series than isolated games. CP3 played well above himself in Games 1-2, even hitting the most difficult layup to win a game. Usually when things like this happen, the player has to come crashing down to reality at some point. Technically, any star that loses a series could have been "more aggressive" but in the end, our offense was not the reason we lost, we put up great numbers as a team against an elite defensive squad despite our injuries. Thats all I could ask for. CP3 cant defend the bigs.


Average for him is still a very efficient 19-6 (TS% 625, 6.2 TO%).


They have different games, if CP3 shot sub 30% and relegated our offense to crap as a result, we would have gotten swept.


Conley put up 17ppg 55TS% while dealing with a defense whos primary concern was scrambling on their bigs down low.

CP3 on the other hand played against superior defenders (both on the perimeter and the interior) and got very little support from his main stars, and STILL put up more PTS on much higher efficiency. Not seeing how its even contextually close.


Because CP3's best supporting player, was his backup. As the series was slipping away Bledsoe played less and less, and CP3 was putting up heavier minutes. Thats why depth matters less in the playoffs, because even if you have a great backup, hes your backup for a reason. Your teams strength of taking advantage of the oppositions bench is less of a factor. I dont blame Vinny, Bledsoe was worthy of getting a chance because if he has it going, hes a true X-Factor.



Both my eyes and the stats disagree, they were definitely not equal. CP3 got our offense humming and his added agressiveness with no loss in efficiency was the reason why were able to even compete. Melo on the other hand was shooting 30% for much of the series, luckily he had a team that could suppress the opposing teams scoring while winning the rebounding battle and giving him extra possessions to get his pt total up.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01/gamelog/2013/

I know you are a Clipper fan so you had to have watched the games. Mike conley met or outplayed paul in at least 4 of these 6 games. Regardless of who is focusing where, that shouldnt happen. The overall stats are a mean of the games but if you contextually watch and track how each game of the series played, you can see how I came to this conclusion. What I am saying is Paul has a better mode (game 5) which made up statistically for his production.

I forgot about Bledsoe but in reality, the clips best supporting player is Crawford (6th man runner up) not Bledsoe. But I do agree that Vinny and injuries are reasons that cp's team did not achieve what they were supposed to. I also agree that the Knicks have a better defensive team whereas Clips, even without Blake, have more offensive firepower. Similarly though I think that Melo's last two playoff teams, especially due to injuries, should have got the same pass Paul got with his Memphis, san antonio, and denver series. But he did not. Otherwise, as stated, Chris Paul has had terrible playoff seasons 40% of the time. Melo has had terrible playoff seasons 40% of the time. One gets trolled for not making it out of first round with a injury riddled squad against the celts and heat. The other gets exempt, You had some good points though that I did not think about. Hope cp comes back and blake gets healthy and more confident with that jumper, Hope Jordan works on his frees and good luck next year.

TheNumber37
05-05-2013, 10:20 PM
Because his best teammates aren't ready.

Shlumpledink
05-05-2013, 10:38 PM
Chris Paul can ball. It's the clippers that are overrated. Blake Griffin especially.

Cracka2HI!
05-05-2013, 10:52 PM
I'm sure others have said this, but if you watch the games you know why. The Clippers minus CP3 we're a very bad team these playoffs. They had a nice start to the regular season but just like every other CP3 team, it turned out to be not very good.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2013, 10:57 PM
There was that Denver series when CP3 played horrendously. But yes we can name many more from Melo.

correct

Chronz
05-05-2013, 11:03 PM
I know you are a Clipper fan so you had to have watched the games. Mike conley met or outplayed paul in at least 4 of these 6 games. Regardless of who is focusing where, that shouldnt happen.
This is where we go our separate ways. I just cant ignore the vast disparity in pressure and production between the 2. If we ignore the caliber of defense and support you can come to alot of moments in NBA history of superior players being outplayed by decent players. Like when Pierce "outplayed" Kobe in the Finals. Disregarding the fact that Kobe faced far more pressure while Pierce was checked by Vladrad and Walton makes absolutely no sense to me. Being outplayed can very well can happen to alot of players if the circumstances are right, and in this case they werent. CP3 far outplayed Conley, a fact made more impressive considering the circumstances. CP3 did his job, our offense was great and he was wildly productive in the process. Its not his fault our bigs couldn't defend.



The overall stats are a mean of the games but if you contextually watch and track how each game of the series played, you can see how I came to this conclusion.
Agree to disagree


What I am saying is Paul has a better mode (game 5) which made up statistically for his production.
Except that his production on a per minute/possession basis was actually higher to start the series. Its just that G1 was such a route that he rarely played. In G.2 his insane efficiency was sustained, he played more minutes and hit that spectacular game winner.

By this point hes played at an insane level of efficiency (he was #2 on the playoff MVP chart per David Thorpe, behind Curry). Asking CP3 to play at a historically elite level against that caliber of a defense is too much to ask. He fell down to earth in G.3, the same game Conley went 1-9 so it wasn't much of difference. CP3 got better with every passing game thereafter.



I forgot about Bledsoe but in reality, the clips best supporting player is Crawford (6th man runner up) not Bledsoe.
What reality? Are you implying that the regular season is determining this? Im talking about the playoffs, besides, if we went by the regular season then it was obviously Blake who was his best supporting player. Blake was injured for the playoffs tho, and JC played so bad that the Coach eventually gave up on him. Bledsoe was definitely more productive (both reg+post season) than JC.


whereas Clips, even without Blake, have more offensive firepower.
Only if CP3 is on the court.


Similarly though I think that Melo's last two playoff teams, especially due to injuries, should have got the same pass Paul got with his Memphis, san antonio, and denver series. But he did not.
Yeah I get it, not sure what kind of talk you were expecting but in terms of expecting the "Same pass", I dont buy it. The production and contextual disparities arent equal. Its the same reason we both agree Tmac got too much guff in comparison to these two. He did better in spite of his circumstances.

mavwar53
05-05-2013, 11:10 PM
The one reason I can think of is the fact that up until the last 2 years he spent his time on a team that didn't do much to help him win, even when they were winning they were most interested in saving money.

I can start seeing criticism if he loses in the first round next year.

RollingWave
05-05-2013, 11:48 PM
PER need to be taken in context with USG, however it is still a good stat, just one you can't take as abosalute (like any other NBA stat.) Win Share takes USG into higher account but it also kinda punish players for being on bad teams a bit (especially defensively. ) RSPM is another advance stat you could take into account. it generally confirms with Win Share but there are subtle difference.

I think Paul gets a little too much of a pass, the argument that he didn't have good teammate is dubious at best, those Hornets / Clippers weren't the best team ever or anything, but David West / Blake Griffin / Tyson Chandler are clearly much much much better players than anyone Lebron's ever had in Cleveland, hell it's probably better than the 2 best player he had combined. If Lebron doesn't get a pass I don't see why CP3 really should.

But it is pretty rare for a top 5 player to never make it past the 2nd round after 8 years.

I am... mixed on this to be sure, I guess another argument in Paul's favor would be that the West is always exceedingly brutal, but then as others noted, even Melo made it and he's a lesser player by most measurement.

DumDum
05-06-2013, 02:21 AM
He's not jerk and Cliff Paul is cool beans

Guppyfighter
05-06-2013, 02:23 AM
Tell me when Chris Paul actually deserves blame for the team losing. He put up incredible playoff stats, again.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-06-2013, 02:27 AM
Probably because Paul performs well.

It's like blaming Lebron for not winning against Orlando in 2009. Just plain stupid. If Paul had a bad series like Lebron did against the Mavs, by all means should he get majority of the blame.

torocan
05-06-2013, 03:31 AM
For those thinking CP3 doesn't get a pass, why is it James never got a pass? What's your argument for that?

Lebron got a lot of passes while he was in Cleveland.

He didn't get a pass when he was a no show against Dallas.

As it should be.

naps
05-06-2013, 04:55 AM
I love CP3 but I agree that he's more protected than some other superstars in the league. To be fair though, I think it's because he regularly shows up in the playoffs and the fact that his teams were never one of the true top-contenders. And he's a nice guy in general, that doesn't hurt too you know.

naps
05-06-2013, 04:59 AM
Lebron got a lot of passes while he was in Cleveland.


Except he never had to get a pass in Cleveland. His teams always overachieved.

jerellh528
05-06-2013, 05:58 AM
cp3 is the best pg in the nba and a top 3 overall player. its not his fault his teams lack the same intensity he does. cmon guys.

Trinidad
05-06-2013, 01:00 PM
First of all. People don't criticize Durant because he's 24 and hasn't won a ring. It's too early right now.

Then about Paul. As good as he is. He's probably the best pure PG in the league. But that's where the problem is. A well kept secret in the NBA is this. Point Guards, especially 6' ones just don't have the impact or value of a star scorer or big man. They just don't.

Paul plays PG like a true Point Guard should. He plays to make his teammates better. Give him a star like Durant or Duncan or Wade or Kobe or Dirk or whatever and he would make them better. That's his role. He never had a star to elevate.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-06-2013, 01:26 PM
Maybe Paul is a tad over rated? Who knows, but failing to make it out of the first round this year is embarrassing.

Trinidad
05-06-2013, 01:31 PM
Maybe Paul is a tad over rated? Who knows, but failing to make it out of the first round this year is embarrassing.

He's just a Point Guard. He doesn't have somebody like Kobe or Durant to just take over the game and start scoring.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-06-2013, 01:44 PM
He's just a Point Guard. He doesn't have somebody like Kobe or Durant to just take over the game and start scoring.

The Clips are one of the deepest teams in the league. No excuses this year.

Rain City
05-06-2013, 01:57 PM
The Clips are one of the deepest teams in the league. No excuses this year.

x2

there was a decent stretch during the season they looked like the favorites in the West if not the entire NBA, they couldnt sustain and a 1st rd exit is a huge dissapointment.

mngopher35
05-06-2013, 02:00 PM
The Clips are one of the deepest teams in the league. No excuses this year.

Being deep matters a lot less in the playoffs. Then take into account their 2nd best player is injured and the 6th man disappeared (those two COMBINED for like 25 ppg on low efficiency).

Chronz
05-06-2013, 02:11 PM
The Clips are one of the deepest teams in the league. No excuses this year.

LOL. Whats so deep about our frontcourt? Blake was playing through injuries and DJ always gos ghost come playoff time. Thats a huge chunk of what made our regular season team so special. How is CP3 suppose to overcome ALL of that while going up against the best defensive team in the conference?

We lost because of our defense, is CP3 suppose to guard their bigs?

Chronz
05-06-2013, 02:12 PM
x2

there was a decent stretch during the season they looked like the favorites in the West if not the entire NBA, they couldnt sustain and a 1st rd exit is a huge dissapointment.

Decent? Its was an undefeated month of play, thats more than decent. Too bad it didn't translate into the playoffs, but CP3 held up his end of the bargain.

Trinidad
05-06-2013, 02:13 PM
LOL. Whats so deep about our frontcourt? Blake was playing through injuries and DJ always gos ghost come playoff time. Thats a huge chunk of what made our regular season team so special. How is CP3 suppose to overcome ALL of that while going up against the best defensive team in the conference?

We lost because of our defense, is CP3 suppose to guard their bigs?

I agree. People assign too much blame on CP3 when by nature his position just doesn't have the impact of others. Does anyone really think a great facilitator like Paul can just throw a team on his back like a star wing like Durant? It's just not the same.

Chronz
05-06-2013, 02:13 PM
He's just a Point Guard. He doesn't have somebody like Kobe or Durant to just take over the game and start scoring.

You're focusing on the wrong end of the game, we would much rather have a Tyson Chandler or someone of his ilk in order to anchor our defense. That would have been FAR more influential this series.

Chronz
05-06-2013, 02:17 PM
I agree. People assign too much blame on CP3 when by nature his position just doesn't have the impact of others. Does anyone really think a great facilitator like Paul can just throw a team on his back like a star wing like Durant? It's just not the same.
Then we dont agree, our offense wasn't the issue, tho it would have been better had Blake been healthy, but we let the Grizz look like a powerhouse offensively. That was far more relevant than anything else.

Durant is a superior player so he should have a greater impact, but it has nothing to do with being a "Star Wing", it has to do with his talent. A guy like Melo is a star wing, but we would have gotten swept if we had him instead.

Trinidad
05-06-2013, 02:19 PM
Then we dont agree, our offense wasn't the issue, tho it would have been better had Blake been healthy, but we let the Grizz look like a powerhouse offensively. That was far more relevant than anything else.

Durant is a superior player so he should have a greater impact, but it has nothing to do with being a "Star Wing", it has to do with his talent. A guy like Melo is a star wing, but we would have gotten swept if we had him instead.

Melo isn't a star. He's clueless without the ball. I stand firm when I say a PG of equal talent has less impact on the game than any of the other 4 positions.

albertajaysfan
05-06-2013, 02:23 PM
CP3's master plan:

1. Force a trade to get a good return for New Orleans.
2. Agree to resign with LA at the end of season to push the trade through.
3. Tell LA it's not a sure thing.
4. Sign with Hornets now that they have young nucleus that will be even better with a return of CP3.

That was CP3's plan all along.

That would be epic. Would also bring on even more conspiracy theories regarding the league with the highest amount and most plausible conspiracies. The fan reaction would be interesting to say the least. The media would have a field day.

ManRam
05-06-2013, 03:23 PM
i'm no expert on nba "win shares", but Chris Paul had 1.3 of them and his team won 2 games.

he played some flawless basketball. i don't think he ever really underachieved in New Orleans...those teams just weren't great. he carried them further than they had any business going for the most part.

maybe he's getting a pass now, but team success shouldn't cloud individual ability either. they lost to a better team IMO. he was the best player in that series, his team just wasn't.

team success should always be taken with a huge grain of salt when evaluating individuals.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-06-2013, 07:09 PM
LOL. Whats so deep about our frontcourt? Blake was playing through injuries and DJ always gos ghost come playoff time. Thats a huge chunk of what made our regular season team so special. How is CP3 suppose to overcome ALL of that while going up against the best defensive team in the conference?

We lost because of our defense, is CP3 suppose to guard their bigs?

Lol I understand you're mad bro, but the Clips choked my man. If Cp3, Griffen, Odom, Barnes, Bledsoe, Butler, Jordan, Billups can't make it to round two, then there is something wrong there.

lakerboy
05-06-2013, 07:13 PM
The good guys like Chris Paul, KD and Steve Nash always get this pass.

Bad guys like Kobe and Lebron got it too before they won championships. Melo hasn't won a championship, and is not a good guy.

BKLYNpigeon
05-06-2013, 07:18 PM
Because the Clippers lost to a better team.

Chronz
05-06-2013, 07:41 PM
Lol I understand you're mad bro, but the Clips choked my man. If Cp3, Griffen, Odom, Barnes, Bledsoe, Butler, Jordan, Billups can't make it to round two, then there is something wrong there.
If Kobe, Nash, Pau, and Dwight cant even get HCA and get sent home early in a sweep, theres something wrong there....

lol see what I did there? I ignored context, just as you have. Of course theres something wrong, any team that loses has something wrong. In this case, it was everything I mentioned, everything you ignored. Nice try tho

Aust
05-07-2013, 05:00 PM
How many games did Billups play this season?

Chronz
05-07-2013, 05:21 PM
How many games did Billups play this season?

Too many or not enough depending on your perspective. He played sporadically and never really had a healthy stretch of games, around 20 games or so. Enough to make a decent impression that Vinny completely ignored Willie Green. That was a bad decision considering Willie had been the starter for the majority of the season and was effective at his role.

Really wish Billups got more reps in with the team to either develop that chemistry or to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he wasn't ready to be our main SG.

elledaddy
05-07-2013, 06:02 PM
LOL, man do some of you guys REALLY hate Melo. Whenever I discuss Basketball in person, the first question I ask is " Do you hate player x ?" If that person says yes or seems like he may be bias towards him, I leave it alone. Many ppl on here just dont like Melo or Melo's game so trying to reason with them is pointless. It's the same with any player but EVERYBODY outside of NY seems to hate Melo, lmao..... Whatever, CP3 does get a pass because he's perceived to be a good guy and he passes the ball( ie...he's a PG) and it's fair I guess. But to anybody saying that the clippers are " OVERRATED" , SHOOT YOURE DAME SELF. They wasnt " rated", this isnt NCAA. They had the 5th best record in professional basketball( 1 game from being 4th), so they EARNED that. I love both CP3 and Melo but Melo is ALWAYS gonna get flak and CP3 wont. It's ALWAYS gonna be something new with Melo.

LONG LIVE THE BALLHOG

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2013, 07:10 PM
If Kobe, Nash, Pau, and Dwight cant even get HCA and get sent home early in a sweep, theres something wrong there....

lol see what I did there? I ignored context, just as you have. Of course theres something wrong, any team that loses has something wrong. In this case, it was everything I mentioned, everything you ignored. Nice try tho

The Clippers haven't had 1/10 of the bad luck the Lakers have had. The Clips choked and that's final. Not surprised though, no one on your team is a winner.

Chronz
05-07-2013, 07:22 PM
The Clippers haven't had 1/10 of the bad luck the Lakers have had.
So what? I thought we weren't considering external factors. Its simply about naming names lol.


The Clips choked and that's final. Not surprised though, no one on your team is a winner.
yet with all your winners, you got swept and struggled making the playoffs.

LOL "THATS FINAL " You're really bad at this debating thing aren't you.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2013, 07:28 PM
So what? I thought we weren't considering external factors. Its simply about naming names lol.


yet with all your winners, you got swept and struggled making the playoffs.

LOL "THATS FINAL " You're really bad at this debating thing aren't you.

How so? I'm owning you!
Lol @ you saying we got swept, If there is no Kobe then the series is void. We struggled to make the playoffs for obvious reasons, so I'm done arguing this. What's final is my franchise had one of it's worst seasons while your franchise had it's best, yet somehow we both land up finishing in the same place:laugh2: Peace out.

Chronz
05-07-2013, 07:55 PM
How so? I'm owning you!
Thats right up there with "Thats Final" or "Im done arguing this". Total ownage, meanwhile you contradict yourself in your own post watch....



Lol @ you saying we got swept, If there is no Kobe then the series is void. We struggled to make the playoffs for obvious reasons, so I'm done arguing this.
Yeah, and we didn't make it out of R.1 for obvious reasons, none of which have to do with CP3.


What's final is my franchise had one of it's worst seasons while your franchise had it's best, yet somehow we both land up finishing in the same place:laugh2: Peace out.
LMFAO how do you not see the glaring contradiction of this claim. If we finished in the same place, that means you're placing an emphasis on when we were eliminated. But last year the Clippers were eliminated in R.2, so according to your logic, we were better last year. LMFAO care to make sense of that?

Or you could admit that our teams had nowhere near the same amount of success. We were both hit by injuries, dont know why you dont just leave it at that instead of going down this clumsy road.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2013, 08:07 PM
Thats right up there with "Thats Final" or "Im done arguing this". Total ownage, meanwhile you contradict yourself in your own post watch....
Nope.

Yeah, and we didn't make it out of R.1 for obvious reasons, none of which have to do with CP3.



LMFAO how do you not see the glaring contradiction of this claim. If we finished in the same place, that means you're placing an emphasis on when we were eliminated. But last year the Clippers were eliminated in R.2, so according to your logic, we were better last year. LMFAO care to make sense of that?

Or you could admit that our teams had nowhere near the same amount of success. We were both hit by injuries, dont know why you dont just leave it at that instead of going down this clumsy road.Cp3 has never made it past the second round either, so let's not act like Cp3 failing to make it far in the post season is a new thing.

The point I was making is you guys were setting your "franchise records" all year, and were looking unbeatable at one point. Only to land up going out in the same round as the Kobeless Lakers. Even though we had one of our worst years ever. Get it now?

Chronz
05-07-2013, 08:11 PM
The point I was making is you guys were setting your "franchise records" all year, and were looking unbeatable at one point. Only to land up going out in the same round as the Kobeless Lakers. Even though we had one of our worst years ever. Get it now?
So did we have our best year or didn't we? LOL dont get mad because you cant formulate a coherent argument. Just stick to your +1's breh

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2013, 08:31 PM
So did we have our best year or didn't we? LOL dont get mad because you cant formulate a coherent argument. Just stick to your +1's breh

Did you read my post, what you said makes no sense. Yes you did have your best season ever, You guys got back door swept. Pure comedy for a team that were the favorites half way through the season.

--23--
05-07-2013, 08:31 PM
Because the Clippers lost to a better team.

So did Melo lead teams but he still get's a lot of blame for his failures. He lost to four championship teams(Spurs 05', 07' Lakers 09' & Heat 12'), one conference finalist(04 T-Wovles) and 1 Finalist(08' Lakers).

Personally I think Chris Paul gets a pass because everyone like's him. I do think people will have to come around and give him just a little criticism if the post season failures continue.

JJ_JKidd
05-07-2013, 08:49 PM
Let me start by saying I love Paul as a player. I think he is the best PG in the nba. But it's amazing how everyone overlooks his 16-24 career playoff record. Never getting out of the 2nd round. People love bringing up Melo as a playoff failure.

Well what resume would you rather have? A guy who has made the playoffs all 10 years of his career and in atleast 4 of those series had no business against the team he was playing or a guy that has missed the playoffs 3 out of 8 years. And has never made a confrence final. Chris paul has put up great numbers but it hasn't translated to success.

It's funny how people call Shane Battier a winner but before last year he had the 6th lowest winning percentage in postseason history.

If the Thunder don't win a championship it's always someone elses fault but Durant. Lebron never got that pass.

My point is the media picks and chooses who they like and dislike and run with a story and the fans eat it up.

CP3's defense counsel Chronz can explain everything lol.

Chronz
05-07-2013, 09:02 PM
Yes you did have your best season ever,
Yes I get what you're trying to do, but you're still not getting the contradiction.

If this is our best season ever, that means you're placing an emphasis on the regular season because the playoffs apparently dont factor into your overall assessment of our success.

Which would mean that our teams didn't end the season on the same anything.... We WERE the better team, I dont need some sort 1st round justification for that by your own logic. If you find comfort in us both exiting R.1 then good for you, but you and I both know our relative lack of success was far different from your failure of a season and bleak immediate future.

If playoff success is what determines where each team finished, then you cannot think this was our best year. Either way, I know what your trying to do. Your trying to mock my team, you take solice in that fact to comfort yourself from the immediately bleak future the Lakers hold.



You guys got back door swept. Pure comedy for a team that were the favorites half way through the season.
Learned that from your fellow Kobe-stans ehh? Well look, if you're putting some kind of importance on the term "backdoor swept", then you would have to (By default) put more importance in getting swept outright. Lakers got "Outright Swept"

JJ_JKidd
05-07-2013, 09:08 PM
Yes I get what you're trying to do, but you're still not getting the contradiction.

If this is our best season ever, that means you're placing an emphasis on the regular season because the playoffs apparently dont factor into your overall assessment of our success.

Which would mean that our teams didn't end the season on the same anything.... We WERE the better team, I dont need some sort 1st round justification for that by your own logic. If you find comfort in us both exiting R.1 then good for you, but you and I both know our relative lack of success was far different from your failure of a season and bleak immediate future.

If playoff success is what determines where each team finished, then you cannot think this was our best year. Either way, I know what your trying to do. Your trying to mock my team, you take solice in that fact to comfort yourself from the immediately bleak future the Lakers hold.



Learned that from your fellow Kobe-stans ehh? Well look, if you're putting some kind of importance on the term "backdoor swept", then you would have to (By default) put more importance in getting swept outright. Lakers got "Outright Swept"

So how did the Clippers become Kings of LA when after this season- Lakers: 16 Chips; Clippers: 0.

JJ_JKidd
05-07-2013, 09:08 PM
Yes I get what you're trying to do, but you're still not getting the contradiction.

If this is our best season ever, that means you're placing an emphasis on the regular season because the playoffs apparently dont factor into your overall assessment of our success.

Which would mean that our teams didn't end the season on the same anything.... We WERE the better team, I dont need some sort 1st round justification for that by your own logic. If you find comfort in us both exiting R.1 then good for you, but you and I both know our relative lack of success was far different from your failure of a season and bleak immediate future.

If playoff success is what determines where each team finished, then you cannot think this was our best year. Either way, I know what your trying to do. Your trying to mock my team, you take solice in that fact to comfort yourself from the immediately bleak future the Lakers hold.



Learned that from your fellow Kobe-stans ehh? Well look, if you're putting some kind of importance on the term "backdoor swept", then you would have to (By default) put more importance in getting swept outright. Lakers got "Outright Swept"

So how did the Clippers become Kings of LA when after this season- Lakers: 16 Chips; Clippers: 0.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2013, 09:46 PM
Yes I get what you're trying to do, but you're still not getting the contradiction.

If this is our best season ever, that means you're placing an emphasis on the regular season because the playoffs apparently dont factor into your overall assessment of our success.

Which would mean that our teams didn't end the season on the same anything.... We WERE the better team, I dont need some sort 1st round justification for that by your own logic. If you find comfort in us both exiting R.1 then good for you, but you and I both know our relative lack of success was far different from your failure of a season and bleak immediate future.

If playoff success is what determines where each team finished, then you cannot think this was our best year. Either way, I know what your trying to do. Your trying to mock my team, you take solice in that fact to comfort yourself from the immediately bleak future the Lakers hold.



Learned that from your fellow Kobe-stans ehh? Well look, if you're putting some kind of importance on the term "backdoor swept", then you would have to (By default) put more importance in getting swept outright. Lakers got "Outright Swept"

That's what you're not getting, if you were the better team then you should have made it further than us. Yes I do find it comforting that your fan base thought they were the **** and get whopped in the first round. The Lakers "BLEAK" future? Lol do you not know who we are? We will win championships to the end of time, History says so. Do you find it comforting that a Kobeless Lakers got swept? Ha, if it makes you sleep better bro, I salute you.

Chronz
05-07-2013, 10:41 PM
That's what you're not getting, if you were the better team then you should have made it further than us.
Based on what. Certainly not by anything you've said in this thread. You JUST got done telling me that my team had its BEST YEAR even though we got past R.1 last year. So which is it, why the inconsistencies?

Your argument is as dumb as me using the argument that we are better because we happened to win more playoff games than you.



Yes I do find it comforting that your fan base thought they were the **** and get whopped in the first round.
LOL, theres like 4 of us... its pretty sad that you get any sort of emotional response from it IMO, I honestly dont care what happens with your team.


The Lakers "BLEAK" future? Lol do you not know who we are? We will win championships to the end of time, History says so. Do you find it comforting that a Kobeless Lakers got swept? Ha, if it makes you sleep better bro, I salute you.
I said Immediate future, the Lakers are going to be without Kobe and their owner for the first time in over a decade. Pau is declining and tying up the cap, the Lakers have sucked at drafting so your only hope is that Dwight resigns. Theres so much uncertainty in the air for your team that I understand why your lashing out so incoherently right now. lol at do you know who we are, Im pretty sure you were the guy who couldn't recall the teams history as recently as the 2000 season, it was either you or KB-P-D.

But yes, I know the Lakers, just like I knew them when they were in the transitional period between Magic and Shaq.

Still notice how far removed from the actual topic we are. Instead of actually debating the matter, you chose to have a pissing contest over your Lakers vs Clippers agenda as if thats of any relevance to the topic. Your a bad troll breh

Chronz
05-07-2013, 10:43 PM
So how did the Clippers become Kings of LA when after this season- Lakers: 16 Chips; Clippers: 0.
Wait, your argument is that I said the Clippers became "Kings of LA"? Care to show me proof? Hell you can start by telling me why I would care about that kind of childish banter?

jayjay33
05-07-2013, 10:53 PM
ISO-ball Melo kind of wants that blame, if you ask me. It's the offense he strives for and it's all or nothing with that guy - unfortunately for him it's generally nothing. Cp3 is the consummate team player and if he doesn't have the contending team (which he never has), then he will lose. Simple as that. Paul was still a genius on the court though, he was so fun to watch, even in a 1st round exit (this isn't the East, it's a different level of basketball). It's too bad Blake was injured + went down and that team fell apart.

Are you talking about Carmelo or Fab melo? Cause from your post I can't even tell. Lol

Cracka2HI!
05-07-2013, 10:59 PM
How so? I'm owning you!
Lol @ you saying we got swept, If there is no Kobe then the series is void. We struggled to make the playoffs for obvious reasons, so I'm done arguing this. What's final is my franchise had one of it's worst seasons while your franchise had it's best, yet somehow we both land up finishing in the same place:laugh2: Peace out.

It doesn't matter what CP3 or Dwight do. The Clippers are better than the Lakers now. For the next few years anyway. 4-0 fell me? Have fun battling for that 8th spot. Peace beyatch!

jayjay33
05-07-2013, 11:00 PM
Good god I feel like I'm in a math class.

Chronz
05-07-2013, 11:02 PM
It doesn't matter what CP3 or Dwight do. The Clippers are better than the Lakers now. For the next few years anyway. 4-0 fell me? Have fun battling for that 8th spot. Peace beyatch!

Dont you know, the Lakers and Clippers are the same, Im basing this on the playoffs. Why do I care about the regular season?

But dont you also know that this was our best season, Im basing this on the regular season, why would I care what you did in the playoffs last year?

Thats illusiontroll

Chronz
05-07-2013, 11:03 PM
Good god I feel like I'm in a math class.
God forbid things add up.

Cracka2HI!
05-07-2013, 11:15 PM
Dont you know, the Lakers and Clippers are the same, Im basing this on the playoffs. Why do I care about the regular season?

But dont you also know that this was our best season, Im basing this on the regular season, why would I care what you did in the playoffs last year?

Thats illusiontroll

Some debates can't be won. The debate will get less intense in the next couple years but our bandwagon is going to explode. That's even if we stay around a 4 seed.

sventhedog
05-07-2013, 11:15 PM
it's all because of that state farm ad.

Captain Moroni
05-07-2013, 11:35 PM
Niether star should be criticized

jayjay33
05-07-2013, 11:58 PM
God forbid things add up.




I know right, no need to even watch the game.

Tymathee
05-08-2013, 12:24 AM
commish has it in for him, first he was on the hornets, then he finally gets a trade to a marquee franchise, and then it gets veto'd for "money *cough* basketball reasons" if you dont think a starting line up of cp3, kobe, metta, hill, howard isn't a legit contender, ur drunk. cp3 would've made life so easy for kobe, he'd play less than 35 per game ad shoot near 50%, dwight would be ridiculously happy and free agents would flock to LA just to play with them.

kblo247
05-08-2013, 12:48 AM
Melo's play has never been as good as Paul's in the playoffs is why. Melo has also played with clearly more talented rosters, while Paul willed some pretty average to bad teams into the playoffs, minus this season, and then injuries killed his squad

When besides the WCF run? When has he had this great talent because Camby, Nene, and Kenyon were never healthy. He never had a run with his bigs ready except once in his career. In ny Amare went Mia the the previous two playoff runs.

Paul has always had his roster, his hand picked roster mind you as a Hornet in the playoffs, yet failed hard. He had his guys who he won tons of games with, did dumb victory celebration with, and were basically a ripoff of Bron Cavs with antics and pandering wise as a Clip all season long as they trotted teams out the gym off depth fail in the playoffs two straight years.

You can't talk injuries and ignore Melo has only had one run in his career with his actual team being healthy unlike Paul in the playoffs. Or knock the fact that unlike Paul, Melo has never missed the playoffs. Or unlike Paul, Melo doesn't just sit there with this look in his face as his teams get beat down fourth quarter in a series and he refuses to even try to take over the scoring load or play 40 minutes like a true franchise star. You also can't knock Melo and ignore that for all his inefficieny, least he shows up vs elites, and doesn't get his *** kicked all throughout his career by elites at his position be it regular season Deron or playoff Tony Parker.

And to the op, he doesn't get the blame because no one who watched basketball beyond stat lines ever is foolish enough to utter the word superstar next to his name. He's not Bron, he's not Kobe, he's not AI, he's not KD, he's not Bird, Magic, MJ, or Isiah. He's an all star pg same way Ewing and Robinson while damn good and HOF worthy were all star, not superstar Cs like Shaq and Hakeem. The last true superstar pg the league has had was NJ Kidd. Melos not a superstar either, he's an all star but he's intertwined with Bron because that's what the hype machine established when he was drafted

sportsfan222
05-08-2013, 11:23 AM
When besides the WCF run? When has he had this great talent because Camby, Nene, and Kenyon were never healthy. He never had a run with his bigs ready except once in his career. In ny Amare went Mia the the previous two playoff runs.

Paul has always had his roster, his hand picked roster mind you as a Hornet in the playoffs, yet failed hard. He had his guys who he won tons of games with, did dumb victory celebration with, and were basically a ripoff of Bron Cavs with antics and pandering wise as a Clip all season long as they trotted teams out the gym off depth fail in the playoffs two straight years.

You can't talk injuries and ignore Melo has only had one run in his career with his actual team being healthy unlike Paul in the playoffs. Or knock the fact that unlike Paul, Melo has never missed the playoffs. Or unlike Paul, Melo doesn't just sit there with this look in his face as his teams get beat down fourth quarter in a series and he refuses to even try to take over the scoring load or play 40 minutes like a true franchise star. You also can't knock Melo and ignore that for all his inefficieny, least he shows up vs elites, and doesn't get his *** kicked all throughout his career by elites at his position be it regular season Deron or playoff Tony Parker.

And to the op, he doesn't get the blame because no one who watched basketball beyond stat lines ever is foolish enough to utter the word superstar next to his name. He's not Bron, he's not Kobe, he's not AI, he's not KD, he's not Bird, Magic, MJ, or Isiah. He's an all star pg same way Ewing and Robinson while damn good and HOF worthy were all star, not superstar Cs like Shaq and Hakeem. The last true superstar pg the league has had was NJ Kidd. Melos not a superstar either, he's an all star but he's intertwined with Bron because that's what the hype machine established when he was drafted
i agree with u basically about everything u said.

people do not want to face the fact that chris paul has had talent on his team, yet he fails time and time again in the playoffs. people cant tell me that he is the reason the clippers r great, 56 wins, franchise high, and then they win the 1st 2 games vs memphis and everything is great, but then when they lose 4 straight to lose the series, its he does not have enough talent. get real people.

also, to ur bolded, ur right, but i think if derrick rose stays healthy, he will be that next superstar pg. best pg in game today no doubt when healthy

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:16 PM
I know right, no need to even watch the game.
Why limit yourself? Do both. With regards to the topic, doing either would be an improvement from the crap spewing here.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:18 PM
people do not want to face the fact that chris paul has had talent on his team, yet he fails time and time again in the playoffs.
Based on what?


people cant tell me that he is the reason the clippers r great, 56 wins, franchise high, and then they win the 1st 2 games vs memphis and everything is great, but then when they lose 4 straight to lose the series, its he does not have enough talent. get real people.
Why cant we say that? Particularly if its true?


also, to ur bolded, ur right, but i think if derrick rose stays healthy, he will be that next superstar pg. best pg in game today no doubt when healthy

what a coincidence, Rose supporter thinks CP3 has failed but that Rose is undoubtably the best PG in the game if healthy.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 03:19 PM
It doesn't matter what CP3 or Dwight do. The Clippers are better than the Lakers now. For the next few years anyway. 4-0 fell me? Have fun battling for that 8th spot. Peace beyatch!

Yeah, it showed in the playoffs for you guys:laugh2:. 4-0 that's cute, let me know when the count changes from 16-0 to 16-1

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 03:21 PM
Based on what. Certainly not by anything you've said in this thread. You JUST got done telling me that my team had its BEST YEAR even though we got past R.1 last year. So which is it, why the inconsistencies?

Your argument is as dumb as me using the argument that we are better because we happened to win more playoff games than you.


LOL, theres like 4 of us... its pretty sad that you get any sort of emotional response from it IMO, I honestly dont care what happens with your team.


I said Immediate future, the Lakers are going to be without Kobe and their owner for the first time in over a decade. Pau is declining and tying up the cap, the Lakers have sucked at drafting so your only hope is that Dwight resigns. Theres so much uncertainty in the air for your team that I understand why your lashing out so incoherently right now. lol at do you know who we are, Im pretty sure you were the guy who couldn't recall the teams history as recently as the 2000 season, it was either you or KB-P-D.

But yes, I know the Lakers, just like I knew them when they were in the transitional period between Magic and Shaq.

Still notice how far removed from the actual topic we are. Instead of actually debating the matter, you chose to have a pissing contest over your Lakers vs Clippers agenda as if thats of any relevance to the topic. Your a bad troll breh

Ok, you have a top 3 season all time, Happy?


Not just PSD. I deal with a lot of Clipper fans outside this site, and all you guys do is talk trash. Maybe it's not you, but you guys hate Laker fans for the same reason.

The Lakers will be fine in the near furture.

I'm only coming at you like this because you attacked me for saying the Cp3 might be a little overrated.

Rivera
05-08-2013, 03:31 PM
Im starting to wonder the same thing

No ones here to argue who the best pg is...thats cp3

But its a problem when mike conley jr is playing you damn near even when your a superior player. Conley is damn good but cp3 should of won that matchup every night

This clipps team has loads of talent

And id beg to differ his NOH team was mediocre

Tyson chandler
David west
Peja
Mo pete
Cp3
Bonzi

Thats a pretty good team

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:33 PM
When besides the WCF run? When has he had this great talent because Camby, Nene, and Kenyon were never healthy. He never had a run with his bigs ready except once in his career. In ny Amare went Mia the the previous two playoff runs.
That doesn't give him an excuse to go ghost.


Paul has always had his roster, his hand picked roster mind you as a Hornet in the playoffs, yet failed hard.
He always had his roster? Even when they were injured in the playoffs? What does providing input on moves have to do with anything anyways? He also wanted J.R. Smith to stay but that wasn't in the cards.



He had his guys who he won tons of games with, did dumb victory celebration with, and were basically a ripoff of Bron Cavs with antics and pandering wise as a Clip all season long as they trotted teams out the gym off depth fail in the playoffs two straight years.
Im not seeing how thats CP3's fault that you feel that way.


You can't talk injuries and ignore Melo has only had one run in his career with his actual team being healthy unlike Paul in the playoffs.
Except that CP3 has already won series against a superior squad in spite of his team not being healthy. Just as hes lost when his teams have been injured. The difference between CP3 and Melo, is that CP3 is more likely to actually show up for a series.


Or knock the fact that unlike Paul, Melo has never missed the playoffs.
Making the playoffs doesn't make one a greater player so why would a CP3 supporter even care about knocking an irrelevant fact? Facts are, its more important in how you perform to get into the playoffs that matters. Like Melo making the playoffs with Denver while Bron was putting up huge numbers on a middling Cleveland team that couldn't even make it in the weak East, that didn't stop EVERYONE from knowing Bron was the better player.


Or unlike Paul, Melo doesn't just sit there with this look in his face as his teams get beat down fourth quarter in a series and he refuses to even try to take over the scoring load or play 40 minutes like a true franchise star.
I trust CP3's ability to manage a game far more than a chucker like Melo so I dont value what you think you're seeing. I've seen CP3 plead to his coach to give his starters a chance when it looked like all hope was lost, Vinny was ready to pack it in but CP3 helped mount the greatest comeback in NBA PLAYOFF history just last year. So spare me your nonsensical diatribe, its a team game and CP3 is the ultimate team player.


You also can't knock Melo and ignore that for all his inefficieny, least he shows up vs elites, and doesn't get his *** kicked all throughout his career by elites at his position be it regular season Deron or playoff Tony Parker.
Not convinced, showing up vs the elites is something that doesn't matter unless it proves to hold true in the post season and even then there are contextual factors to consider. Like when Kobe and Pierce met in the Finals, Pierce technically outplayed Kobe if you look at the raw stats (especially in his victories), but that would ignore that Kobe was facing the best defensive team in the league with Pierce mainly abusing Vladrad and the likes. It would be like comparing Melo vs Bron in last years playoffs when Melo shot a ghastly %, whereas Durant did far better in the Finals. What good were those regular season matchups to Melo then?


And to the op, he doesn't get the blame because no one who watched basketball beyond stat lines ever is foolish enough to utter the word superstar next to his name. He's not Bron, he's not Kobe, he's not AI, he's not KD, he's not Bird, Magic, MJ, or Isiah. He's an all star pg same way Ewing and Robinson while damn good and HOF worthy were all star, not superstar Cs like Shaq and Hakeem. The last true superstar pg the league has had was NJ Kidd. Melos not a superstar either, he's an all star but he's intertwined with Bron because that's what the hype machine established when he was drafted
So your argument is that I dont watch basketball? Oh the hubris of todays youth.... let me know when you have something more substantial at your disposal.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 03:37 PM
Im starting to wonder the same thing

No ones here to argue who the best pg is...thats cp3

But its a problem when mike conley jr is playing you damn near even when your a superior player. Conley is damn good but cp3 should of won that matchup every night

This clipps team has loads of talent

And id beg to differ his NOH team was mediocre

Tyson chandler
David west
Peja
Mo pete
Cp3
Bonzi

Thats a pretty good team

They were pretty good. don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:44 PM
But its a problem when mike conley jr is playing you damn near even when your a superior player. Conley is damn good but cp3 should of won that matchup every night
That would ignore the differences in competition. Contrary to popular belief, Basketball isnt a 1 on 1 game in which matchups are so easily interpreted. Its about the relationship that player has with his teammates on top of individual production that determines a players impact.

CP3 vastly outplayed Conley for the series, a FACT made more profound when you consider the external factors at play; 1) That Memphis had a FAR superior defensive foundation (perimeter and post) to throw at CP3, 2) That CP3's best regular season support was MIA for the playoffs, be it due to injury (Blake back/knee) or underachieving (DJ for the 2nd year in a row and JC).


This clipps team has loads of talent
Yea and of that talent guess who does their job. CP3 . What good does the talent you have do you if it doesn't translate into the playoffs (Blake/DJ)?


And id beg to differ his NOH team was mediocre

Tyson chandler
David west
Peja
Mo pete
Cp3
Bonzi

Thats a pretty good team
Pretty good typically isn't good enough to win against great. How sad that the best team CP3 ever got to play with came in his FIRST playoff run? At their peak, this squad was pushing the Spurs. Then David West got injured. Id say thats a pretty good run all things considering. Too bad it would detiororate in the ensuing years. Really sucks how injury prone Chandler and Peja were for awhile.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:44 PM
They were pretty good. don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.
Did someone say they were pretty bad?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 03:48 PM
Did someone say they were pretty bad?

Well you made it seem as if Kobe had ten times the Help and Cp3 carried his team. Maybe it was Hawkeye, not you.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:52 PM
Ok, you have a top 3 season all time, Happy?

You've missed the yet again point my friend. Its not about the semantic ranking (do you really think I would trust your opinion on things like this anyways?), its about the logical fallacy of your troll attempt.
Was it better or wasn't it?
You can have it both ways, either playoffs matter or they dont and if regular season matters then you have to admit our teams were worlds apart in terms of what they accomplished this year. You can choose either one, and Ill be cool, or continue struggling to grasp the concept, both are hilarious.


Not just PSD. I deal with a lot of Clipper fans outside this site, and all you guys do is talk trash. Maybe it's not you, but you guys hate Laker fans for the same reason.


The Lakers will be fine in the near furture.
What if Dwight leaves? Do you see a Kobe-Dwight less team doing better next year? I think you're blindly optimistic.


I'm only coming at you like this because you attacked me for saying the Cp3 might be a little overrated.
Blatant exaggerations aside, veering off the topic to this degree isn't the best way to make your case. It sends the message that you have no way of defending your actual stance with any sort of conviction.

But I guess thats the difference between us, Im mostly here to debate ball, you're mostly here to troll hard.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:54 PM
Well you made it seem as if Kobe had ten times the Help and Cp3 carried his team. Maybe it was Hawkeye, not you.
How about just saying Kobe had more help? Which I think was obvious that he did but I've had that debate so often I'd rather pass on it now. If Hawk or Kblow want to rehash it then I will oblige them,..... with a fury

Chronz
05-08-2013, 03:59 PM
But why are people mentioning Bonzi Wells, dude was washed up by the time he got to New Orleans, he played like 10 minutes a night in the playoffs FFS

Cracka2HI!
05-08-2013, 05:45 PM
16-0 that's really cute. I'm glad you brought up the past with a Bryant avatar tho. Let talk about what happened in Eagle CO!!!!!!!

I was just trying to say the Clippers are a better team than the Lakers moving forward. True story!!

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 07:01 PM
You've missed the yet again point my friend. Its not about the semantic ranking (do you really think I would trust your opinion on things like this anyways?), its about the logical fallacy of your troll attempt.
Was it better or wasn't it?
You can have it both ways, either playoffs matter or they dont and if regular season matters then you have to admit our teams were worlds apart in terms of what they accomplished this year. You can choose either one, and Ill be cool, or continue struggling to grasp the concept, both are hilarious.




What if Dwight leaves? Do you see a Kobe-Dwight less team doing better next year? I think you're blindly optimistic.


Blatant exaggerations aside, veering off the topic to this degree isn't the best way to make your case. It sends the message that you have no way of defending your actual stance with any sort of conviction.

But I guess thats the difference between us, Im mostly here to debate ball, you're mostly here to troll hard.We're not worlds apart if you take what happened to us all year into consideration. Did you see our last 40 games?

We'll reload in 2014 and be back in contention just as history suggest. Any thing else?

The last thing you wrote is making me smile.

16-0 that's really cute. I'm glad you brought up the past with a Bryant avatar tho. Let talk about what happened in Eagle CO!!!!!!!

I was just trying to say the Clippers are a better team than the Lakers moving forward. True story!!

Lol, what does some slutty white girl claiming rape for money have to do with anything? Clippers will most likely go another 10 years off ring less runs. The Lakers will be back in the finals in no time. I'll trust history more than the outcast fans of Los Angeles.

flyboy2013
05-08-2013, 07:21 PM
Cp3 ain't bout dat lyfe!

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 07:26 PM
Cp3 ain't bout dat lyfe!

This.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 07:27 PM
I always say this to flames but CP3 is a little overrated.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 07:31 PM
The fact people think CP3 is overrated to me, means he is underrated.

People overrate team post season success when valuing the actual impact of players. We know how good CP3 is, but I have seen people rate Rondo, Rose, and Parker over him in different occasions. Straight up disrespectful.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 07:43 PM
The fact people think CP3 is overrated to me, means he is underrated.

People overrate team post season success when valuing the actual impact of players. We know how good CP3 is, but I have seen people rate Rondo, Rose, and Parker over him in different occasions. Straight up disrespectful.

So by your logic, Melo is also underrated since he's overrated by many?

He's clearly better then Rondo and Parker, and Westbrook and Rose, but I don't think the chasm is as big as people think it is.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 07:47 PM
So by your logic, Melo is also underrated since he's overrated by many?

He's clearly better then Rondo and Parker, and Westbrook and Rose, but I don't think the chasm is as big as people think it is.

Melo is rated properly because people compare him to Durant or CP3 a lot and there are the groups who severly underrate him. It evens out in my opinion.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 07:49 PM
I always say this to flames but CP3 is a little overrated.


So by your logic, Melo is also underrated since he's overrated by many?

He's clearly better then Rondo and Parker, and Westbrook and Rose, but I don't think the chasm is as big as people think it is.

These, Chronz will be coming for your head soon btw.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 07:53 PM
Winning a ring or advancing far in the playoffs doesn't tell you anything about a player. If you can sit here and tell me CP3 isn't the third best player in the league by a fair margin you aren't watching the game. You aren't enjoying basketball. CP3's execution, skill level, and all around game is beautiful to watch.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2013, 07:54 PM
I always say this to flames but CP3 is a little overrated.


Winning a ring or advancing far in the playoffs doesn't tell you anything about a player. If you can sit here and tell me CP3 isn't the third best player in the league by a fair margin you aren't watching the game. You aren't enjoying basketball. CP3's execution, skill level, and all around game is beautiful to watch.By far the 3rd best player in the Nba? Kobe would like to have a word with you.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 07:57 PM
By far the 3rd best player in the Nba? Kobe would like to have a word with you.

Kobe was the third best shooting guard definitely this year. Definitely not top three. Not top five. I'd say eight this year.

Edit: Laker fans do a good job of pushing an agenda about Kobe and derailing any thread. Absolutely the worst, most toxic fan base in all of sports.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 08:01 PM
Melo is rated properly because people compare him to Durant or CP3 a lot and there are the groups who severly underrate him. It evens out in my opinion.

The entire premise is inherently flawed to be honest. Chris Paul is the best PG, has been for years but it annoys me how some people view him as infallible.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 08:03 PM
The entire premise is inherently flawed to be honest. Chris Paul is the best PG, has been for years but it annoys me how some people view him as infallible.

He doesn't make a lot of mistakes. His extremely low turnover rate despite the ball being constantly in his hands is telling of that.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 08:07 PM
Winning a ring or advancing far in the playoffs doesn't tell you anything about a player. If you can sit here and tell me CP3 isn't the third best player in the league by a fair margin you aren't watching the game. You aren't enjoying basketball. CP3's execution, skill level, and all around game is beautiful to watch.

Winning a ring tells you NOTHING about a player? I disagree, especially if the player is a top one.

Chris Paul is the third best player, no argument here. By a fair margin? Yes, this year, considering the Dwight fiasco.

The enjoyment and beauty of his game proves nothing except your subjectivity.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 08:10 PM
Winning a ring tells you NOTHING about a player? I disagree, especially if the player is a top one.

Chris Paul is the third best player, no argument here. By a fair margin? Yes, this year, considering the Dwight fiasco.

The enjoyment and beauty of his game proves nothing except your subjectivity.

People who can't take enjoyment out of his game or say it doesn't matter because he hasn't won a ring can go **** themselves honestly.

And yes, winning a ring doesn't tell you anything about a player. All time greats don't win rings all of the time. Only one winner at the end of the day, and the playoffs are pretty crapshooty. Less so in basketball admittedly, still random however.

It's a nice mentality for players to have, but as fans, that's ********.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 08:14 PM
We're not worlds apart if you take what happened to us all year into consideration.
Thats what Ive been asking for, consistency. Take into consideration as many variables as become apparent.


Did you see our last 40 games?
Yes, it took Kobe playing 48MPG to barely nudge your efficiency differential.


We'll reload in 2014 and be back in contention just as history suggest. Any thing else?
You're ignoring the question, I know I know, what else is new.

But Ill try one more time, do you think a team without Kobe and Dwight would do better next year? Your best chance to reload isn't until all those massive contracts come off the books. History suggests you still need cap space and assets to pull those reloads off.

Chronz
05-08-2013, 08:16 PM
I always say this to flames but CP3 is a little overrated.
You can be the best player in the world and be overrated depending on what you have said. The subjectivity and hollowless of the statement isn't enough to flame anyone.


These, Chronz will be coming for your head soon btw.
Didn't know raising valid points was going for the head.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 08:16 PM
People who can't take enjoyment out of his game or say it doesn't matter because he hasn't won a ring can go **** themselves honestly.

And yes, winning a ring doesn't tell you anything about a player. All time greats don't win rings all of the time. Only one winner at the end of the day, and the playoffs are pretty crapshooty. Less so in basketball admittedly, still random however.

It's a nice mentality for players to have, but as fans, that's ********.

Well that's just not true, and at this point it appears you're making excuses for Paul. Most of who people consider all-time greats have lengthy postseason resumes, including (multiple) championships.

And you keep harkening back to enjoyment but it's essentially meaningless. I don't particularly think LeBron's game is beautiful but that doesn't stop him from being the best player. You're bringing subjectivity into this, and it makes you look less credible. If you used something tangible and objective, like stats-- which he has stellar ones-- well then that's a different story.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 08:21 PM
You can be the best player in the world and be overrated depending on what you have said. The subjectivity and hollowless of the statement isn't enough to flame anyone.


Didn't know raising valid points was going for the head.

"Best player in the world" in itself is a subjective statement so what are you suggesting? In fact, your opinion on my comment not being flame-worthy is also entirely subjective. So again, what are you arguing?

Chronz
05-08-2013, 08:57 PM
"Best player in the world" in itself is a subjective statement so what are you suggesting?
That whoever that best player may be, he can still be overrated.


In fact, your opinion on my comment not being flame-worthy is also entirely subjective. So again, what are you arguing?
That its not a valid criticism on its own.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 09:09 PM
Well that's just not true, and at this point it appears you're making excuses for Paul. Most of who people consider all-time greats have lengthy postseason resumes, including (multiple) championships.

And you keep harkening back to enjoyment but it's essentially meaningless. I don't particularly think LeBron's game is beautiful but that doesn't stop him from being the best player. You're bringing subjectivity into this, and it makes you look less credible. If you used something tangible and objective, like stats-- which he has stellar ones-- well then that's a different story.

You don't know anything of NBA history if you think is true.

Dominique Wilkins.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 09:26 PM
That whoever that best player may be, he can still be overrated.


That its not a valid criticism on its own.

So what I said about Chris Paul was subjective, yet you counter with an assertion that's just as subjective? We're just speaking in circles and generalities. My saying Chris Paul is a little overrated is evidently "subjective" but you disagreeing isn't? Hmmm.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 09:30 PM
I hate when people say things are overrated or underrated. Just a dumb stance. Ignore others opinion and make a fair, statistical analysis of a player and his impact and rate him properly.

The audacity.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 09:31 PM
You don't know anything of NBA history if you think is true.

Dominique Wilkins.

Wow. So Dominique Wilkins is one of the all-time greats? Top 5? Top 10? Please quantify it.

You're grasping at straws. The fact that you can't admit that many of the players most consider all-time greats have championships-- and it's usually a precursor and prerequisite to even start a discussion with the term "all-time great"-- just proves you're either seriously deluded or severely lacking knowledge. Either way, yikes.

RLundi
05-08-2013, 09:33 PM
I hate when people say things are overrated or underrated. Just a dumb stance. Ignore others opinion and make a fair, statistical analysis of a player and his impact and rate him properly.

The audacity.

Which you haven't done. All you've done is presented absurd irrelevancies like "the beauty and excitement of his game" :rolleyes:

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 09:35 PM
Which you haven't done. All you've done is presented absurd irrelevancies like "the beauty and excitement of his game" :rolleyes:

I have done this in many Chris Paul threads. I am not going to reiterate what I have said before, not with something this obvious.

You haven't made any solid claims or concrete statements to argue against. You agree he is the third best player, but you think he is overrated. That's not really substantive. Not a case to be made there.

naps
05-08-2013, 09:42 PM
How so? I'm owning you!

You're owning Chronz? GTFO!

RLundi
05-08-2013, 09:43 PM
I have done this in many Chris Paul threads. I am not going to reiterate what I have said before, not with something this obvious.

You haven't made any solid claims or concrete statements to argue against. You agree he is the third best player, but you think he is overrated. That's not really substantive. Not a case to be made there.

What's so obvious?? That's he NOT overrated? How is that obvious? That's subjective, is it not? Don't you love philosophical discussions? :)

He is the third best player, but I just think he gets too much praise, especially on PSD. I can make a case just fine.

DoubleDragon
05-08-2013, 10:02 PM
Let me start by saying I love Paul as a player. I think he is the best PG in the nba. But it's amazing how everyone overlooks his 16-24 career playoff record. Never getting out of the 2nd round. People love bringing up Melo as a playoff failure.

Well what resume would you rather have? A guy who has made the playoffs all 10 years of his career and in atleast 4 of those series had no business against the team he was playing or a guy that has missed the playoffs 3 out of 8 years. And has never made a confrence final. Chris paul has put up great numbers but it hasn't translated to success.

It's funny how people call Shane Battier a winner but before last year he had the 6th lowest winning percentage in postseason history.

If the Thunder don't win a championship it's always someone elses fault but Durant. Lebron never got that pass.

My point is the media picks and chooses who they like and dislike and run with a story and the fans eat it up.

You answered your own question.

SeoulBeatz
05-08-2013, 10:07 PM
:laugh: Did you even watch the last game? He had 28 points / 8 assists / 0 turnovers.

And you think people should call him a failure? He was leading the league in playoff PER at 29.3 when his team got eliminated, you can't put that on him.


Yup. He's the best PG in the league. People will say Curry is, but Curry is a SG IMO (a la Iverson, just because he's short, doesn't mean he's a point guard)

I'm also one fo the few people on this site who gives T-Mac a pass as well.

his numbers in the playoffs were absurd...

31 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 6.7 apg (that's excluding ATL and SAS games obviously)

sometimes there's only SO much you can do to help your team win. Not everyone can have Lebron and Wade as teammates.

Guppyfighter
05-08-2013, 10:13 PM
Yup. He's the best PG in the league. People will say Curry is, but Curry is a SG IMO (a la Iverson, just because he's short, doesn't mean he's a point guard)

I'm also one fo the few people on this site who gives T-Mac a pass as well.

his numbers in the playoffs were absurd...

31 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 6.7 apg (that's excluding ATL and SAS games obviously)

sometimes there's only SO much you can do to help your team win. Not everyone can have Lebron and Wade as teammates.

If you watched Curry play you'd know he is a PG and that no one thinks he is the best PG.

Cracka2HI!
05-08-2013, 10:46 PM
We're not worlds apart if you take what happened to us all year into consideration. Did you see our last 40 games?

We'll reload in 2014 and be back in contention just as history suggest. Any thing else?

The last thing you wrote is making me smile.


Lol, what does some slutty white girl claiming rape for money have to do with anything? Clippers will most likely go another 10 years off ring less runs. The Lakers will be back in the finals in no time. I'll trust history more than the outcast fans of Los Angeles.

I understand what you think. You have no substance to anything you say. That's why you keep pointing at banners and saying irrelevant things like "I'll trust history more than the outcast fans of Los Angeles". You couldn't give me 1 legit reason why the Lakers will be better than Clipps anytime in the next 5 years. Your team ain't got **** and history can't save you this time son. Holla at me if you have an actual point about basketball.

Meaze_Gibson
05-08-2013, 10:59 PM
Cuz he actually shows up. Melo has gone ghost too often

Not trying to bait you my dude but if you can, please clarify all playoff series you feel Melo went "ghost" in. I've noticed you keep mentioning this throughout the thread.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Chronz
05-09-2013, 03:20 AM
So what I said about Chris Paul was subjective, yet you counter with an assertion that's just as subjective? We're just speaking in circles and generalities. My saying Chris Paul is a little overrated is evidently "subjective" but you disagreeing isn't? Hmmm.
Im not being subjective at all. You're not getting what Im saying, I can tell because you seem to think Im disagreeing with you on him being overrated. How can I disagree on something that is completely dependent on your viewpoint, what you've heard... I cant pretend to know what you've been told about CP3 so why would I bother flaming/disagreeing with you?

What I AM saying, is that its a meaningless critique. Any one can be overrated dependent on what you have personally heard about the player, even the best players. THATS my point and its far from subjective, its me recognizing the emptiness of the claim.

celtNYpatsHeels
05-09-2013, 10:28 AM
Its pretty simple.... if a PG is the best player on your team, your team isnt championship calibur.... it doesnt matter who the PG is.... Paul, Deron, Rose, Rondo etc. Only ONE team in the history of the NBA has won a championship with a PG as the clear #1 on his team.... the Isaiah pistons

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-10-2013, 01:20 PM
Kobe was the third best shooting guard definitely this year. Definitely not top three. Not top five. I'd say eight this year.

Edit: Laker fans do a good job of pushing an agenda about Kobe and derailing any thread. Absolutely the worst, most toxic fan base in all of sports.-1


Thats what Ive been asking for, consistency. Take into consideration as many variables as become apparent.


Yes, it took Kobe playing 48MPG to barely nudge your efficiency differential.


You're ignoring the question, I know I know, what else is new.

But Ill try one more time, do you think a team without Kobe and Dwight would do better next year? Your best chance to reload isn't until all those massive contracts come off the books. History suggests you still need cap space and assets to pull those reloads off.

We went 28-12, while Kobe looked like the second best player in the world. Yeah we might suck next year, but in 2014 we'll be back. You trying to make it seem like one of the greatest franchises in professional sports is about to be forgotten forever is showing your knowledge of history.

Chronz
05-10-2013, 02:07 PM
We went 28-12 while Kobe looked like the second best player in the world. Yeah we might suck next year, but in 2014 we'll be back. You trying to make it seem like one of the greatest franchises in professional sports is about to be forgotten forever is showing your knowledge of history.
Yes, it took Kobe playing a truck load of minutes to close the season, essentially running a playoff rotation at a point in time when most teams were thinking long term, all this to barely nudge your efficiency differential... whats your point here?

And how am I trying to make it seem like you will be fogotten "forever"? What in my line of questioning would make you believe that? All you're showing is your inability to comprehend the English language. Its evident when you quoted "future" instead of the more PRECISE statement ("Immediate Future"). Im not talking about what will happen at any point other than the near future.

Im not going to speculate the way your franchise will operate ad-infinitum, lol why do the **** do you cling to these straws? But spare me your hubris, great empires have collapsed before, its a changing of the guard for you guys, Lakers have the leg up because of their tradition and finances, but without the good Dr. Buss, Dr. Shaq, Mr. West, Kobe+Phil around, its going to take a new driving force to rebuild the luster that used to be in LA.

We both know the LAL way, you're going to have to find a new franchise player who will be down for the rebuild. Maybe Durant when OKC cant build a contender will force his way to play with Dwight, assuming Dwight stays.

Chronz
05-10-2013, 02:08 PM
Not trying to bait you my dude but if you can, please clarify all playoff series you feel Melo went "ghost" in. I've noticed you keep mentioning this throughout the thread.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Working on a thread to add perspective. Maybe this weekend

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-10-2013, 02:22 PM
Yes, it took Kobe playing a truck load of minutes to close the season, essentially running a playoff rotation at a point in time when most teams were thinking long term, all this to barely nudge your efficiency differential... whats your point here?

And how am I trying to make it seem like you will be fogotten "forever"? What in my line of questioning would make you believe that? All you're showing is your inability to comprehend the English language. Its evident when you quoted "future" instead of the more PRECISE statement ("Immediate Future"). Im not talking about what will happen at any point other than the near future.

Im not going to speculate the way your franchise will operate ad-infinitum, lol why do the **** do you cling to these straws? But spare me your hubris, great empires have collapsed before, its a changing of the guard for you guys, Lakers have the leg up because of their tradition and finances, but without the good Dr. Buss, Dr. Shaq, Mr. West, Kobe+Phil around, its going to take a new driving force to rebuild the luster that used to be in LA.

We both know the LAL way, you're going to have to find a new franchise player who will be down for the rebuild. Maybe Durant when OKC cant build a contender will force his way to play with Dwight, assuming Dwight stays.

Kobe did that all on his own basically. Mike Tardtoni watched Kobe bring them back into playoff contention. He actually hurt us more than he help us, we got to the playoffs in spite of Mike. We would cruise if we had an average coach.

Ok, you got me. The Lakers will suck in their IMMEDAITE FUTURE (one year), before they storm back in 2014 like history suggest. Happy now? Maybe your right about us not having a bright future with Jimmy running the show, but La fans will call for his head if he don't get his **** together soon.

el hidalgo
05-10-2013, 02:31 PM
Kobe did that all on his own basically. Mike Tardtoni watched Kobe bring them back into playoff contention. He actually hurt us more than he help us, we got to the playoffs in spite of Mike. We would cruise if we had an average coach.

Ok, you got me. The Lakers will suck in their IMMEDAITE FUTURE (one year), before they storm back in 2014 like history suggest. Happy now? Maybe your right about us not having a bright future with Jimmy running the show, but La fans will call for his head if he don't get his **** together soon.

you aren't a lakers fan bro, you're a kobe fan. this post shows it. in typical fashion, kobe gets ALL the credit for them making the playoffs. what about his atrocious defense?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-10-2013, 04:21 PM
you aren't a lakers fan bro, you're a kobe fan. this post shows it. in typical fashion, kobe gets ALL the credit for them making the playoffs. what about his atrocious defense?

Just like your a Lakers fan huh? You useless troll. Be a man and Leave this site like you said you would. I don't know how you can seriously show up here and post with no shame.