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View Full Version : Stephen Curry best player in 2009 draft class?



sammyvine
04-29-2013, 06:28 AM
Better than Blake imo.

krisxsong
04-29-2013, 06:35 AM
No I believe James Harden is.

Then I'll say it's Stephen Curry, then Blake/Holiday.

poleandreel
04-29-2013, 06:39 AM
Easily James Harden. Still would take Blake over Curry as well. One good series and a good second half can't put the ankle issues in the past. Especially since he missed games this season and almost was taken out of this game because of his ankle.

krisxsong
04-29-2013, 06:40 AM
Easily James Harden. Still would take Blake over Curry as well. One good series and a good second half can't put the ankle issues in the past. Especially since he missed games this season and almost was taken out of this game because of his ankle.

Yes I'd rather have Blake too due to his health, but that doesn't make him a better player.

Curry is not just on a playoff run/second half. His first 3 seasons are really great.

iTweety
04-29-2013, 06:45 AM
I would say Harden, but Curry is proving to be one of the best

R. Johnson#3
04-29-2013, 07:00 AM
Curry and Harden both came into their own this year. It's a really hard call to make. Curry has been incredible in the post season so far though.

MonroeFAN
04-29-2013, 07:14 AM
what makes Harden the better player?

b@llhog24
04-29-2013, 07:58 AM
Harden, although Curry is definitely better than Blake.

Bookey
04-29-2013, 08:12 AM
Curry, Harden & Blake are overrated IMO

BKLYNpigeon
04-29-2013, 08:30 AM
Easily James Harden. Still would take Blake over Curry as well. One good series and a good second half can't put the ankle issues in the past. Especially since he missed games this season and almost was taken out of this game because of his ankle.

Curry only missed 4 games this season.

all 3 players are great in their own right. I dont think you can go wrong with Curry, Blake or Harden. Price wise Curry is only making 11 mil a year, his production is ridiculous, and so fun to watch a 6'2 pg take over games.

poleandreel
04-29-2013, 09:06 AM
Curry only missed 4 games this season.

all 3 players are great in their own right. I dont think you can go wrong with Curry, Blake or Harden. Price wise Curry is only making 11 mil a year, his production is ridiculous, and so fun to watch a 6'2 pg take over games.

I completely agree. And I do think Curry is criminally underpaid for the production he can provide. I also never said Curry was only good in the 2nd half/playoffs. He has been good for 3 years and getting rid of Monta was addition by subtraction - they freed curry.

However, just the possibility of his ankle acting up would easily make me take the other 2 over him. But I think Blake was overrated to the point that he became underrated. He improved his offense, defense, and passing. He gets so few shots because that team is stacked. As the only go to guy on a team I could see him averaging 27/14 on 50+% shooting.

And as for Harden, he is durable, big, strong and us unlikely to be easily injured. He is also a great playmaker at the 2 guard position and is an average defender while curry is slightly below average.

D-Leethal
04-29-2013, 09:10 AM
Don't remind me :(

IKnowHoops
04-29-2013, 12:51 PM
That was a great draft class.

Hawkeye15
04-29-2013, 01:02 PM
Rubio
































































kidding

xRipCity
04-29-2013, 01:05 PM
Harden before Curry.

But for real, can we admire Curry's record he set? He is a POINT GUARD, there aren't plays designed for him to get spot up three point jumpers like shooting guards/small forwards. He gets most of his shots off dribble seperation, pick and rolls, and late shock clock jumpers.

Yes Curry has the ball in his hands more often then Ray, but I believe it was easier for Ray because he didn't have to cross someone up to get his shot.

Curry may be the greatest shooter to ever play the game.

justinnum1
04-29-2013, 01:07 PM
If curry didnt have his injury concerns i would say yes.

justinnum1
04-29-2013, 01:07 PM
If curry didnt have his injury concerns i would say yes.

ghettosean
04-29-2013, 01:25 PM
Harden before Curry.

But for real, can we admire Curry's record he set? He is a POINT GUARD, there aren't plays designed for him to get spot up three point jumpers like shooting guards/small forwards. He gets most of his shots off dribble seperation, pick and rolls, and late shock clock jumpers.

Yes Curry has the ball in his hands more often then Ray, but I believe it was easier for Ray because he didn't have to cross someone up to get his shot.

Curry may be the greatest shooter to ever play the game.

Great point and great post!

LakersIn5
04-29-2013, 01:32 PM
hate the clips but i would take blake

FOBolous
04-29-2013, 01:32 PM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations trying to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.

SugeKnight
04-29-2013, 02:32 PM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations when he tries to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, the lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.

I agree with this. A Curry-Harden duo would compliment each other perfectly

statsheetstud
04-29-2013, 02:51 PM
2009 draft was probably the strongest draft since Lebron's in 2003. So i would say NO Curry is not the best, Harden is an obvious #1 here and also i would take Griffin over Curry. Stephen is clearly the best shooter in his class and maybe even ever, but still i believe Harden and Griffin are more impactful for their team success and future, also take into consideration that Steph ankles are one of the weakest in the NBA and this is a clearly know fact. Yes, Stephen is playing like crazy right now, but i think ankle problems will catch up with him soon and since he will be able to play only limited minutes, his production will go down

OceanSpray
04-29-2013, 02:51 PM
Harden>Curry>Blake.

Blake is overrated as hell.

FOBolous
04-29-2013, 02:54 PM
2009 draft was probably the strongest draft since Lebron's in 2003. So i would say NO Curry is not the best, Harden is an obvious #1 here and also i would take Griffin over Curry. Stephen is clearly the best shooter in his class and maybe even ever, but still i believe Harden and Griffin are more impactful for their team success and future, also take into consideration that Steph ankles are one of the weakest in the NBA and this is a clearly know fact. Yes, Stephen is playing like crazy right now, but i think ankle problems will catch up with him soon and since he will be able to play only limited minutes, his production will go down

he would make a great Ray Allen-type player when that happens....but he would be an extremely undersized (but effecient) SG lol

tredigs
04-29-2013, 02:55 PM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations when he tries to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, the lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.

I did not want to chime in on Curry > Harden, but since you're a Rocket fan I will say that I agree and for the exact same reason. It is great to be a high efficiency scorer on account of being so great at drawing contact, but that advantage is always less once the 4th quarter nears a close and refs are more reluctant to make the call. I've always noticed this with Harden's game, and the same could be said for KD in some regards before his handles and 3pt shooting improved even more this year.

Right around early January Curry kicked it into another gear and never looked back. What's better, and what people will remember from his Davidson run, is that he has a knack for wanting to be extra aggressive when the atmosphere kicks up. The only players I want on my team if its' a win or go home more than Steph would be KD and Lebron, and even then, you're happy taking your chances on Curry.

He's leading the playoffs to this point in Win Shares, PER, Offensive rating, Assists and steals. Putting up the 27/4.5/10 on 50/47/100, and really the only thing that I see regressing if anything is the assist totals, even going against SAS if they can close this out. But the more they double him, the more easy looks Jack, Landry and co. will get.

krisxsong
04-29-2013, 02:59 PM
what makes Harden the better player?

Just look at their production this and last year. Harden's is better.

tredigs
04-29-2013, 03:03 PM
I don't think it's a huge fluke that Jarret Jack is averaging 20 a game on 62% either (his other playoff run 2 seasons ago with Cp3's Hornets he was a useless asset, putting up 5.8ppg on 35% from the field). They are expending so much energy focusing on Curry and trying to keep the ball out of his hands that Jack and Klay are having a field day out there. Talk about making your teammates better.

kingkenny01
04-29-2013, 03:08 PM
I think this is a hilarious article
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/203690-2009-nba-draft-very-weak

BklynKnicks3
04-29-2013, 03:10 PM
Curry and harden is really close

MonroeFAN
04-29-2013, 03:11 PM
Just look at their production this and last year. Harden's is better.

They're both great players, but I just can't get over Curry's efficiency.

statsheetstud
04-29-2013, 03:14 PM
He's leading the playoffs to this point in Win Shares, PER, Offensive rating, Assists and steals. Putting up the 27/4.5/10 on 50/47/100, and really the only thing that I see regressing if anything is the assist totals, even going against SAS if they can close this out. But the more they double him, the more easy looks Jack, Landry and co. will get.
Curry is playing against the fastest pace team in the NBA. Which allows the most points in a game. It's really not that special that he is putting those kind of stats.Yes, his numbers are amazing but you also have to take into account his opponent.

Hellcrooner
04-29-2013, 03:19 PM
talk bout this topic in 2019, its too frgging early.

tredigs
04-29-2013, 03:21 PM
Curry is playing against the fastest pace team in the NBA. Which allows the most points in a game. It's really not that special that he is putting those kind of stats.Yes, his numbers are amazing but you also have to take into account his opponent.

Wrong, and for this reason: You're assuming that because Denver had the fastest pace this season he is putting up 27 because he is getting more shots off. But he's only taking 19 a game (exactly half are 3's, which is insane) and just 3.7 FTA's. Plus, he's been putting up 25/4/7+ on ridiculous efficiency since January.

More importantly, he brings back the We Believe Warriors crowd. Insane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v3hSi-JEu68

Hellcrooner
04-29-2013, 03:21 PM
i will say this tough.

Harden hasnt dealt with major injuries.

Curry, Blake, Rubio have.
So there i always a chance of them being completley a waste in 2 or 3 years if injuries take a toll on them.

OceanSpray
04-29-2013, 03:30 PM
I'd rather build a team around Harden. Curry is up there but my preference of an all around player is greater.

krisxsong
04-29-2013, 03:30 PM
They're both great players, but I just can't get over Curry's efficiency.

Harden is far more efficient.

His TS% last year was .660. This year it was .600.

For Curry's last healthy season, it was .595, and .589 this year.

SouthSideRookie
04-29-2013, 03:30 PM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations trying to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.

Curry is an excellent scorer/three-point shooter , that's his game. Players like Harden, Westbrook and Durant are not. They are relentless at going to the basket and are not afraid to take the beating it takes in doing so. After having gone through the whole T Mac and Yao ordeal I wouldn't want to bank on a guy whose ankles are made of glass. Then there's also his defense, haven't you noticed how many times GS subs him out on a defensive possesion.


2009 draft was probably the strongest draft since Lebron's in 2003. So i would say NO Curry is not the best, Harden is an obvious #1 here and also i would take Griffin over Curry. Stephen is clearly the best shooter in his class and maybe even ever, but still i believe Harden and Griffin are more impactful for their team success and future, also take into consideration that Steph ankles are one of the weakest in the NBA and this is a clearly know fact. Yes, Stephen is playing like crazy right now, but i think ankle problems will catch up with him soon and since he will be able to play only limited minutes, his production will go down

People are down on Harden because of his effiency having dipped somewhat the past two months. This is more of a result of McHale playing him so many minutes and James trying to adjust for having the responsibilty of being the primary option on offense now.

During the season James had several sessions during practice with McHale on learning some post moves and he's talked about adding that to his game. He's also talked about expanding his game in terms of developing a better mid range game and giving a better effort on the defensive side of the ball. Houston wanted for him to focus more on being a scorer/facilitator for this season. He's just 23 and is going to get better.

Blitzace137
04-29-2013, 03:47 PM
Don't remind me :(

I'll never forget that draft one pick away. Damn GS

tredigs
04-29-2013, 03:49 PM
Harden is far more efficient.

His TS% last year was .660. This year it was .600.

For Curry's last healthy season, it was .595, and .589 this year.
11 thousandths is far more efficient? The .660 he had with KD and Westbrook is irrelevant to his role as a #1 option now. Plus, Curry's efficiency rose with his point totals over the course of the season and into the playoffs (actually he is now at .660 TS% against the Nugs). Curry's the better scorer (and passer) from everywhere, but Harden is indeed relentless at drawing contact (until the end of 4ths, where that is less reliable), and all those FT's will definitely boost your efficiency (even without being the foul shooter Curry is).

Relative to their position Curry's the better rebounder and I would argue defender as well. He gets a ton of steals without being a gambler (leads playoffs in steals so far), and has just generally improved his man to man D significantly this season. It also helps that your PG's D is the easiest to hide with help, especially with a shot-blocking center to shore up the paint. The subbing on D you saw was actually because he was too aggressive early on and got into foul trouble. Gives him a rest, too.

tredigs
04-29-2013, 03:49 PM
dub

NYKnickFanatic
04-29-2013, 03:51 PM
Curry only missed 4 games this season.

all 3 players are great in their own right. I dont think you can go wrong with Curry, Blake or Harden. Price wise Curry is only making 11 mil a year, his production is ridiculous, and so fun to watch a 6'2 pg take over games.
Damn, I wish I could ONLY make 11 mil a year.

Jarvo
04-29-2013, 03:55 PM
Harden > Curry > Lawson > Jrue

I wouldn't take Blake before any of them.

Jarvo
04-29-2013, 03:56 PM
Damn, I wish I could ONLY make 11 mil a year.

Shiiiiiiiiiiidddddd me too!

flea
04-29-2013, 03:57 PM
If health weren't a factor I'd take Curry easily. Harden is only efficient because he's perfected the "skill" of flopping in the NBA and contributing a lot of his offensive value at the free throw line. I'm always hoping the refs will stop making these calls because it ruins the game, but if there are bankable stars that rely on it to boost their scoring another 5 PPG I'm not sure it will go away. It's very close though, even with health not being a factor, because they're both great basketball players. I just love the prospect of having a guy who may go down as the best shooter ever to play.

With health being a factor of course it's Harden.

amos1er
04-29-2013, 04:04 PM
It's between Curry and Harden. Then Blake.

Chronz
04-29-2013, 04:06 PM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations trying to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.
Disagree,
Statistically, Harden gets to the line more in the clutch than he does at any other point, your right about the turnovers tho, thats prolly the biggest difference. Curry also shoots a low% in the clutch, many of their losses in close games have been a result of him being unable to get free, the difference is that his team does better in such situations than Harden's, and I believe its because he commands soooo much respect that he opens up the game for his teammates to a much better degree.

If Curry is better, which I would agree with, its because he makes his teammates much better (superior passing/spacing), if Harden werent such a **** defender he would make up alot of ground.

amos1er
04-29-2013, 04:09 PM
Harden is far more efficient.

His TS% last year was .660. This year it was .600.

For Curry's last healthy season, it was .595, and .589 this year.

Can't compare his TS% to when he was a 3rd option to a guy who is a first option. lol

.05 of a percent is hardly "far more efficient". TS% is important, but there are other factors that go into how efficient a player is.

Not saying that Curry is better than Harden, just that your argument for Harden being "far more efficient" is flawed.

amos1er
04-29-2013, 04:10 PM
Disagree,
Statistically, Harden gets to the line more in the clutch than he does at any other point so..... Curry also shoots a low% in the clutch, many of their losses in close games have been a result of him being unable to get free, the difference is that his team does better in such situations than Harden's, and I believe its because he commands soooo much respect that he opens up the game for his teammates to a much better degree.

If Curry is better, which I would agree with, its because he makes his teammates much better (superior passing/spacing), if Harden werent such a **** defender he would make up alot of ground.

It's pretty close between the two of them right now...though I feel that Curry (if he stays healthy) will surpass Harden.

Chronz
04-29-2013, 04:16 PM
Blake has yet to enter a playoff healthy, so yea, hes not going to get a pass but dont act surprised if he ends up exploding one of these years. Particularly if he ever gets to play in a series vs lax defense

mp3
04-29-2013, 04:20 PM
Curry>Harden>>>>Blake.

Heediot
04-29-2013, 05:00 PM
Curry for the Playoffs over all.

Blake for regular season. He's soft and ***** during playoffs so far.

Harden has the green light to do whatever he wants, whereas Blake is deferring because of team depth.

AI
04-29-2013, 05:11 PM
Don't remind me :(

Oh what could have been, damn you Golden State.

tredigs
04-29-2013, 05:32 PM
Disagree,
Statistically, Harden gets to the line more in the clutch than he does at any other point, your right about the turnovers tho, thats prolly the biggest difference. Curry also shoots a low% in the clutch, many of their losses in close games have been a result of him being unable to get free, the difference is that his team does better in such situations than Harden's, and I believe its because he commands soooo much respect that he opens up the game for his teammates to a much better degree.

If Curry is better, which I would agree with, its because he makes his teammates much better (superior passing/spacing), if Harden werent such a **** defender he would make up alot of ground.
Eye test fail on my part if his clutch-time FT's are actually higher. I've always felt like a ref is more likely to swallow his whistle in the waning minutes, which is why I would think it deludes a high-contact players effectiveness.

b@llhog24
04-29-2013, 07:10 PM
Disagree,
Statistically, Harden gets to the line more in the clutch than he does at any other point, your right about the turnovers tho, thats prolly the biggest difference. Curry also shoots a low% in the clutch, many of their losses in close games have been a result of him being unable to get free, the difference is that his team does better in such situations than Harden's, and I believe its because he commands soooo much respect that he opens up the game for his teammates to a much better degree.

If Curry is better, which I would agree with, its because he makes his teammates much better (superior passing/spacing), if Harden werent such a **** defender he would make up alot of ground.

Great post. People are getting caught up in the fact that Harden is struggling right now and Curry went absolutely *******. I doubt the Rockets advance (so Harden could get to show what he's really made off) but OKC was literally the worst matchup for Harden to draw.

gwrighter
04-29-2013, 07:27 PM
Ty Lawson is the best player so far out of that '09 draft. Blake Griffin & Harden are overrated because of the offensive bias in statistics. Steph Curry has a good argument for 2nd behind Lawson IMO.

b@llhog24
04-29-2013, 07:35 PM
Ty Lawson is the best player so far out of that '09 draft. Blake Griffin & Harden are overrated because of the offensive bias in statistics. Steph Curry has a good argument for 2nd behind Lawson IMO.

Yea because Lawson is some big time defensive juggernaut.

--23--
04-29-2013, 07:36 PM
If i had to build a team I would pick Blake, of course this depends on what your team need. I always felt a star talented big is easier to build around and history shows they are a big part in winning a championship.

To answer the question on whether Curry is the best from 09 draft class...I really don't know. I have to wait till Blake, Harden & Curry enter their prime to determine that. Of course it's easy to choose Curry now because of his great performance, But what if Blake go's off for 30+pts and 15+rebs the rest of the playoffs or next years post season...Or what if Harden goes off and rally Houston to upset OKC then people opinions will shift. So it's imo better to wait till each guy reach their peak.

Hawkeye15
04-29-2013, 08:00 PM
Ty Lawson is the best player so far out of that '09 draft. Blake Griffin & Harden are overrated because of the offensive bias in statistics. Steph Curry has a good argument for 2nd behind Lawson IMO.

huh? Lawson isn't a defender, nor demands the attention of either Harden or Curry.

Breeze777
04-29-2013, 09:08 PM
1.Griffin
2.Curry, Harden (VERY close seconds)
3.Holiday
4.Lawson
5.Rubio
6.Derozan, Jennings
7.Teague

Pretty strong draft class overall.

ChiSox219
04-29-2013, 09:32 PM
Right now I'd take Blake from that class because he's a two way player with a high iq and plays a winning brand, but I think Harden ends up being the best.

FOBolous
04-29-2013, 09:46 PM
Great post. People are getting caught up in the fact that Harden is struggling right now and Curry went absolutely *******. I doubt the Rockets advance (so Harden could get to show what he's really made off) but OKC was literally the worst matchup for Harden to draw.

Harden struggled all season long in clutch situations. this isn't anything new.

Beltrans Mole
04-29-2013, 09:47 PM
Harden is the best from this draft IMO. Curry is second.

ThaDubs
04-29-2013, 09:49 PM
Harden has been chucking his mind off and Steph is playing like an MVP.

bgdreton
04-29-2013, 09:56 PM
Right now I'd take Blake from that class because he's a two way player with a high iq and plays a winning brand, but I think Harden ends up being the best.

I really don't get Blake being that highly sought after. He can't shoot, he doesn't defend that well and most importantly I don't think he rebounds to his potential. Didn't he have 2 Rebs for a game the other day? Wtf is that. Once his jumping ability goes away by age or injury he won't be the same player long term. He needs cp3 to do most of the work for him to be effective. Where as harden or curry can be self reliant. You can't throw the ball in the post to Blake and say take over the game but you can with harden or curry. So to me it's harden and curry then the rest.....

ChiSox219
04-29-2013, 10:00 PM
Harden struggled all season long in clutch situations. this isn't anything new.

Young team with no other creators what do you expect? It's not a big deal, we're talking about 85 minutes (less than 3% of Harden's season) by the broadest definition of clutch, +/- 5 points with 5 minutes to go.

He looked pretty good in the clutch against OKC that last regular season match up.

b@llhog24
04-29-2013, 10:10 PM
Harden struggled all season long in clutch situations. this isn't anything new.

Someone doesn't understand the subject.

Sadds The Gr8
04-29-2013, 10:16 PM
Harden then Curry then Blake.

Chronz
04-29-2013, 10:18 PM
Harden struggled all season long in clutch situations. this isn't anything new.

Most players do

Chronz
04-29-2013, 10:21 PM
I really don't get Blake being that highly sought after. He can't shoot, he doesn't defend that well and most importantly I don't think he rebounds to his potential. Didn't he have 2 Rebs for a game the other day? Wtf is that. Once his jumping ability goes away by age or injury he won't be the same player long term. He needs cp3 to do most of the work for him to be effective. Where as harden or curry can be self reliant. You can't throw the ball in the post to Blake and say take over the game but you can with harden or curry. So to me it's harden and curry then the rest.....
He may not be better than these 2 studs but most of what you said isn't true, his stats are the same with or without CP3. His defense has improved alot but his effort is inconsistent, hes also a brilliant passer.

His rebounding has declined because of his enhanced defensive awareness but yeah thats a concern sometimes.

BKLYNpigeon
04-29-2013, 10:46 PM
Ill take Steph Curry and his 4 year 44 million dollar contract.

bgdreton
04-29-2013, 11:01 PM
He may not be better than these 2 studs but most of what you said isn't true, his stats are the same with or without CP3. His defense has improved alot but his effort is inconsistent, hes also a brilliant passer.

His rebounding has declined because of his enhanced defensive awareness but yeah thats a concern sometimes.

How efficient is he without cp3? That's a honest question ( i don't know). He might get similar stats but how efficient is he? But I the sake of this topic I would go harden/ curry then Blake I am sorry he doesn't pass the eye test for me. Stats can be deceiving. Lastly you shouldnt make excuses for a player y his rebounds are down. He might be playing better defense but you can't box out? That's hard to believe. This is suppose to be a center piece of ur team but yet his free throws are bad ill give him average d and for a guy that can jump out the gym he should get a lot more blocks than he gets. I would rather have boozer than Blake honestly. Totally off topic I know but for the sake of convo I would take a lot of pf over Blake at this point

ChiSox219
04-29-2013, 11:13 PM
How efficient is he without cp3? That's a honest question ( i don't know). He might get similar stats but how efficient is he? But I the sake of this topic I would go harden/ curry then Blake I am sorry he doesn't pass the eye test for me. Stats can be deceiving. Lastly you shouldnt make excuses for a player y his rebounds are down. He might be playing better defense but you can't box out? That's hard to believe. This is suppose to be a center piece of ur team but yet his free throws are bad ill give him average d and for a guy that can jump out the gym he should get a lot more blocks than he gets. I would rather have boozer than Blake honestly. Totally off topic I know but for the sake of convo I would take a lot of pf over Blake at this point

Man we live in different realities.

bgdreton
04-30-2013, 12:36 AM
Man we live in different realities.

Ya we do, I'm just not high on him he is not a superstar to me. Nor is he a big difference maker at this point. He is over hyped because he can dunk on people. I will say this, if he gets a go to move on the post that is not a dunk and he can start making a 15ft jump shot then I would change my opinion.

Heediot
04-30-2013, 06:52 AM
Ya we do, I'm just not high on him he is not a superstar to me. Nor is he a big difference maker at this point. He is over hyped because he can dunk on people. I will say this, if he gets a go to move on the post that is not a dunk and he can start making a 15ft jump shot then I would change my opinion.

Keep watching the highlight reels. His post game has improved so much this season. People are still judging Blake based on past ingrained memories. I'll say this, he needs to step up and grow some balls in the playoffs. As for his regular season game, he's the best of the 3.

--23--
04-30-2013, 07:26 AM
How efficient is he without cp3? That's a honest question ( i don't know). He might get similar stats but how efficient is he? But I the sake of this topic I would go harden/ curry then Blake I am sorry he doesn't pass the eye test for me. Stats can be deceiving. Lastly you shouldnt make excuses for a player y his rebounds are down. He might be playing better defense but you can't box out? That's hard to believe. This is suppose to be a center piece of ur team but yet his free throws are bad ill give him average d and for a guy that can jump out the gym he should get a lot more blocks than he gets. I would rather have boozer than Blake honestly. Totally off topic I know but for the sake of convo I would take a lot of pf over Blake at this point

You do know statistically Blake played good without CP3? The only thing that went up was his FG percentage from .506% to .549%. As for your bold statement, boy oh boy I wish you was in the Clippers front office, I'd do that in a heartbeat :laugh2:

looka09
04-30-2013, 07:34 AM
I`ll take Curry over Harden any day

OKC
04-30-2013, 07:51 AM
I know 4 games don't mean much but here are Curry's stats so far in the playoff:
27.3 pts, 10 ast, 4.5 rbs, 2.8 stls, shooting 50/47.4/100

poleandreel
04-30-2013, 08:01 AM
Harden before Curry.

But for real, can we admire Curry's record he set? He is a POINT GUARD, there aren't plays designed for him to get spot up three point jumpers like shooting guards/small forwards. He gets most of his shots off dribble seperation, pick and rolls, and late shock clock jumpers.

Yes Curry has the ball in his hands more often then Ray, but I believe it was easier for Ray because he didn't have to cross someone up to get his shot.

Curry may be the greatest shooter to ever play the game.

Completely false. Curry has so many plays drawn up for him. Go to youtube and search warriors elevator doors if you don't believe me

010957
04-30-2013, 09:07 AM
^ its true, and also, curry plays a lot off the ball when J.Jack plays point. So he effectively does play sg during games.

Having said that, Curry is better than harden. I can't believe people are saying harden. i have watched a stupid amount of games this season (addictive league pass), and have had the liberty to actually watch different individual players play (ive seen alot of harden and curry, not so much griffen though). As a nuggets fan, i have had the displeasure of watching curry turn into something i didn' think exist. He's an absolute joke (2k player). Omg, this guy... he's having MJ kind of games, where everything just goes in. Seriously he's incredible. James harden has had a great year, although in fairness he's a hog on that houston team. I know this sounds like i'm attacking houstan here, but seriously it has really pissed me off. I've bet money on houston to win a few games before the end of the season, and yesterday's game (lucky to win that one), and i was so frustrated when in the final few minutes of all these games i watched, the ball would be given to harden, harden dribbles, harden dribbles (everyone stands around and watches), harden dribbles (time is being waisted on the clock), and then harden will take a long contested jump shot (bad shot selection), miss, and then next possession, same thing again.

yet curry seems unguardable because his dribble game is a+ (incaseyou didn't know) and then he can just hit any shot from anywhere on the court (ANYWHERE)

CURRY>HARDEN OR GRIFFIN

mightybosstone
04-30-2013, 09:41 AM
PSD is so incredibly fickle. Harden plays well all season long and gets a ton of love. He has one bad series against one of the best defensive teams in the league and Curry has one great series against one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and all of a sudden Curry is better. Have you guys watched Harden in this series? Sefolosha has guarded him like a glove. Every time he holds the ball looking to drive someone will come over to double. Every time he gets the edge and goes to drive, he's got the entire Thunder defense clogging the lane and looking to strip the ball (which is why Harden has so many turnovers). And Ibaka has guarded the rim like a hawk guarding its nest.

One series does not make a player great or a player bad. Harden has had the superior season up to this point and is the superior player. Everyone is also conveniently forgetting Curry's injury problems prior to this season, which are not just going to go away over time. I'm not saying Curry isn't a great player. I'm just saying he's not better than James Harden based on their play this season.

gsw-all-the-way
04-30-2013, 10:09 AM
PSD is so incredibly fickle. Harden plays well all season long and gets a ton of love. He has one bad series against one of the best defensive teams in the league and Curry has one great series against one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and all of a sudden Curry is better. Have you guys watched Harden in this series? Sefolosha has guarded him like a glove. Every time he holds the ball looking to drive someone will come over to double. Every time he gets the edge and goes to drive, he's got the entire Thunder defense clogging the lane and looking to strip the ball (which is why Harden has so many turnovers). And Ibaka has guarded the rim like a hawk guarding its nest.

One series does not make a player great or a player bad. Harden has had the superior season up to this point and is the superior player. Everyone is also conveniently forgetting Curry's injury problems prior to this season, which are not just going to go away over time. I'm not saying Curry isn't a great player. I'm just saying he's not better than James Harden based on their play this season.

You sound like you watch no warriors basketball at all, Currys been doing this since the all star break. the first couple months he got into rythym and ever since then hes been tearing it up. His numbers are superior to harden after the break.

tr3ymill3r
04-30-2013, 10:36 AM
Just imagine if Memphis took anybody other than Thabeet.

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 10:41 AM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations trying to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.

Curry attempts .7 more shots per game yet averages 3 less points per game...

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 10:59 AM
PSD is so incredibly fickle. Harden plays well all season long and gets a ton of love. He has one bad series against one of the best defensive teams in the league and Curry has one great series against one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and all of a sudden Curry is better. Have you guys watched Harden in this series? Sefolosha has guarded him like a glove. Every time he holds the ball looking to drive someone will come over to double. Every time he gets the edge and goes to drive, he's got the entire Thunder defense clogging the lane and looking to strip the ball (which is why Harden has so many turnovers). And Ibaka has guarded the rim like a hawk guarding its nest.

One series does not make a player great or a player bad. Harden has had the superior season up to this point and is the superior player. Everyone is also conveniently forgetting Curry's injury problems prior to this season, which are not just going to go away over time. I'm not saying Curry isn't a great player. I'm just saying he's not better than James Harden based on their play this season.

Even right before the postseason Harden was chucking BAD every game. Well below 40%. Curry has been playing his mind off since the ASB, which just goes to show you that when Curry is healthy he's the better player. And when the Warriors are undermanned, he can go off for 54. Or 47.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 10:59 AM
Curry attempts .7 more shots per game yet averages 3 less points per game...

That's because Harden gets to the line over 10 times a game...

gwrighter
04-30-2013, 11:03 AM
Yea because Lawson is some big time defensive juggernaut.

From the eye test I feel Lawson overwhelms his opponent more than Curry does. If we're looking at the past 4 games as an example then obviously people will have a solid argument for Steph, and rightfully so. The PG position is stacked and we don't really have any elite two way PG's in the league at the moment.


huh? Lawson isn't a defender, nor demands the attention of either Harden or Curry.

There aren't really any two-way PG's that are elite defensively anyways. Hou and GSW offenses are structured differently than Denver's and augment Harden and Steph's game. Steph is a very very skilled player but so far in their respective careers Lawson has been better overall. Doesn't mean Steph won't be better in the future as I think he will be.

Houston's pace inflates their players statistics IMO. Considering that Morey puts such a large amount of stock into advanced statistics, there's no doubt that they look to maximize statistical performance.

Harden's a very good player, to me he's similar to Mitch Richmond & a bit back of prime VC.

I don't know how much more effective he'll ever be though. I mean, he is young but his Usg is already top 10 in the league and his %ages are meh.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 11:05 AM
From the eye test I feel Lawson overwhelms his opponent more than Curry does. If we're looking at the past 4 games as an example then obviously people will have a solid argument for Steph, and rightfully so. The PG position is stacked and we don't really have any elite two way PG's in the league at the moment.



There aren't really any two-way PG's that are elite defensively anyways. Hou and GSW offenses are structured differently than Denver's and augment Harden and Steph's game. Steph is a very very skilled player but so far in their respective careers Lawson has been better overall. Doesn't mean Steph won't be better in the future as I think he will be.

Houston's pace inflates their players statistics IMO. Considering that Morey puts such a large amount of stock into advanced statistics, there's no doubt that they look to maximize statistical performance.

Harden's a very good player, to me he's similar to Mitch Richmond & a bit back of prime VC.

I don't know how much more effective he'll ever be though. I mean, he is young but his Usg is already top 10 in the league and his %ages are meh.

No way you just said that Lawson is better than Curry. Please lmao don't tell me you just said that.

gwrighter
04-30-2013, 11:17 AM
No way you just said that Lawson is better than Curry. Please lmao don't tell me you just said that.

I'm not hopping on any bandwagon here. I'm looking at their overall respective careers. Lawson has led better teams than Curry for longer amounts of time and has an overall larger amount of ws/48 over his career thus far. Up to this point in time Lawson has had the better career and has been the better player.

b@llhog24
04-30-2013, 11:39 AM
From the eye test I feel Lawson overwhelms his opponent more than Curry does. If we're looking at the past 4 games as an example then obviously people will have a solid argument for Steph, and rightfully so. The PG position is stacked and we don't really have any elite two way PG's in the league at the moment.

I want to laugh but man I'll hear you out. Which aspects of the game do you actually think Lawson has on Curry?

Passing? Nope
Rebounding? Nope
Defense? Neither are that great but Ty's size severely limits his ceiling on that end, whereas Curry is at least a semi decent positional defender and is among the leaders in steals (reg and play)
How about shooting/scoring? :laugh:
Intangibles? I doubt it. I rarely get into intangible arguments but Curry's are especially impressive. Spacing to me (or lack thereof) can make a world of difference for your teammates. See Dwight in LA.


There aren't really any two-way PG's that are elite defensively anyways. Hou and GSW offenses are structured differently than Denver's and augment Harden and Steph's game. Steph is a very very skilled player but so far in their respective careers Lawson has been better overall. Doesn't mean Steph won't be better in the future as I think he will be.

I'd consider Paul, Westbrook and a healthy Drose (even though there's no such thing) are excellent two way players at the guard spot. I can see the career marks favoring Lawson (I didn't check the numbers) but Lawson regressed and even then his ceiling is still not as high as Steph's. Take a look at the thread title. "Best player in the 2009 draft class" if Ty's not it currently, and he's probably not going to be in the future; then why would we pick him?


Houston's pace inflates their players statistics IMO. Considering that Morey puts such a large amount of stock into advanced statistics, there's no doubt that they look to maximize statistical performance.

Advanced metrics are less likely to be influenced by pace in comparison to basic metrics as the pace is standardized. Not saying there's no relation to pace and offensive efficiency but it's more player dependent than anything.


Harden's a very good player, to me he's similar to Mitch Richmond & a bit back of prime VC.

Considering prime VC is better than all of the players in question, I'd venture to say that he's at least better than Ty.


I don't know how much more effective he'll ever be though. I mean, he is young but his Usg is already top 10 in the league and his %ages are meh

His usage/ortg relationship is only trumped by Bron, KD and Cp3. Tp is arguable.

TheIlladelph16
04-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Harden>Curry>Blake>Jrue>Lawson

Harden and Curry are actually pretty close here, but I'm going Harden.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 01:01 PM
I want to laugh but man I'll hear you out. Which aspects of the game do you actually think Lawson has on Curry?

Passing? Nope
Rebounding? Nope
Defense? Neither are that great but Ty's size severely limits his ceiling on that end, whereas Curry is at least a semi decent positional defender and is among the leaders in steals (reg and play)
How about shooting/scoring? :laugh:
Intangibles? I doubt it. I rarely get into intangible arguments but Curry's are especially impressive. Spacing to me (or lack thereof) can make a world of difference for your teammates. See Dwight in LA.



I'd consider Paul, Westbrook and a healthy Drose (even though there's no such thing) are excellent two way players at the guard spot. I can see the career marks favoring Lawson (I didn't check the numbers) but Lawson regressed and even then his ceiling is still not as high as Steph's. Take a look at the thread title. "Best player in the 2009 draft class" if Ty's not it currently, and he's probably not going to be in the future; then why would we pick him?



Advanced metrics are less likely to be influenced by pace in comparison to basic metrics as the pace is standardized. Not saying there's no relation to pace and offensive efficiency but it's more player dependent than anything.



Considering prime VC is better than all of the players in question, I'd venture to say that he's at least better than Ty.



His usage/ortg relationship is only trumped by Bron, KD and Cp3. Tp is arguable.

:clap::clap::clap:

mightybosstone
04-30-2013, 01:10 PM
You sound like you watch no warriors basketball at all, Currys been doing this since the all star break. the first couple months he got into rythym and ever since then hes been tearing it up. His numbers are superior to harden after the break.


Even right before the postseason Harden was chucking BAD every game. Well below 40%. Curry has been playing his mind off since the ASB, which just goes to show you that when Curry is healthy he's the better player. And when the Warriors are undermanned, he can go off for 54. Or 47.

Okay, I'll give you that Curry has played better than Harden since the All-Star break. But since the season considers all games played, not just the last 30+ games of the year, Harden still had the superior season by a pretty wide margin. I'll give Curry shooting and distribution over Harden, but I give Harden everything else: drawing fouls, getting points in the paint, rebounding, defense and steals.

Also, I think everyone giving Curry the edge over Harden is basing their opinion on an extremely small sample size. If you look at the entirety of the last two years, Harden has clearly been the better player. And you can play the "when healthy" card, but Curry has been healthy most of the year, and Harden clearly had the better season. Also, if you can't stay healthy, then that has to be taken into consideration when determining value.

mp3
04-30-2013, 01:15 PM
Curry is stepping up as Harden is folding. If your getting double teamed, you should be getting 10 assist not accounting for 10 turnovers...

mightybosstone
04-30-2013, 01:19 PM
You sound like you watch no warriors basketball at all, Currys been doing this since the all star break. the first couple months he got into rythym and ever since then hes been tearing it up. His numbers are superior to harden after the break.


Curry is stepping up as Harden is folding. If your getting double teamed, you should be getting 10 assist not accounting for 10 turnovers...

Did you watch the game last night? Several of those "turnovers" were piss poor offensive foul calls, especially the last two which were drawn by Derek Fisher flops. But as I said before, Harden has played better this season without question, and one playoff series does not make a difference, especially when you consider how much better OKC is on the defensive side of the ball.

In the end, though, who gives a ****? It's way too early to determine who will have the better career and both guys are studs. We could be sitting here 10 years from now debating them as among the greatest player of their generation or talking about how injuries cut their careers short. Do I think Harden is better? Yes. But that doesn't diminish what Curry has done this season or is doing right now.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 01:24 PM
Okay, I'll give you that Curry has played better than Harden since the All-Star break. But since the season considers all games played, not just the last 30+ games of the year, Harden still had the superior season by a pretty wide margin. I'll give Curry shooting and distribution over Harden, but I give Harden everything else: drawing fouls, getting points in the paint, rebounding, defense and steals.

Also, I think everyone giving Curry the edge over Harden is basing their opinion on an extremely small sample size. If you look at the entirety of the last two years, Harden has clearly been the better player. And you can play the "when healthy" card, but Curry has been healthy most of the year, and Harden clearly had the better season. Also, if you can't stay healthy, then that has to be taken into consideration when determining value.

Harden is not better at getting steals.

Shooting: Curry
Natural Scoring: Curry
Getting to the line: Harden
Passing: Curry
Rebounding: Harden
Defense: tie
Intangibles/leadership: Curry
Clutch situations: Curry
Traveling without being caught: Harden

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 01:25 PM
I was kidding about the last one lol

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 01:26 PM
In the end, though, who gives a ****? It's way too early to determine who will have the better career and both guys are studs. We could be sitting here 10 years from now debating them as among the greatest player of their generation or talking about how injuries cut their careers short. Do I think Harden is better? Yes. But that doesn't diminish what Curry has done this season or is doing right now.

I think Steph is equal or better, but good post nonetheless.

mp3
04-30-2013, 01:29 PM
Did you watch the game last night? Several of those "turnovers" were piss poor offensive foul calls, especially the last two which were drawn by Derek Fisher flops. But as I said before, Harden has played better this season without question, and one playoff series does not make a difference, especially when you consider how much better OKC is on the defensive side of the ball.

In the end, though, who gives a ****? It's way too early to determine who will have the better career and both guys are studs. We could be sitting here 10 years from now debating them as among the greatest player of their generation or talking about how injuries cut their careers short. Do I think Harden is better? Yes. But that doesn't diminish what Curry has done this season or is doing right now.

Well I tend to come on this site to debate like most people.

curtcocaine
04-30-2013, 01:29 PM
In thee offseason we could have had James Harden for Thompson and Barnes. Wish we did but i belive this year curry has had the better season.

Steph stats
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXcXXcurryst01.html

Harden stats
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXhXXhardeja01.html

Curry is the better play maker scorer.
Harden slighy better defender, and better at getting to line.
Curry is more efficent on everything on offense

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 01:32 PM
Well I tend to come on this site to debate like most people.

That is true as well. But he has a good point. They are both young studs and we are lucky to be able to watch them.

mp3
04-30-2013, 01:37 PM
That is true as well. But he has a good point. They are both young studs and we are lucky to be able to watch them.

Yeah I know. They're definitely both studs and were lucky to watch these guys. Especially with the talent that has been coming out of the draft. Funny how Griffin has barely been mentioned in this debate lol.

mightybosstone
04-30-2013, 01:42 PM
Harden is not better at getting steals.

Shooting: Curry
Natural Scoring: Curry
Getting to the line: Harden
Passing: Curry
Rebounding: Harden
Defense: tie
Intangibles/leadership: Curry
Clutch situations: Curry
Traveling without being caught: Harden

First off, Harden averaged more steals per game, steals per 36 minutes and a higher STL% this season, so I'm pretty sure that makes him better. And saying Curry is a better scorer isn't fair either. Harden dominated Curry in points, points per 36 and TS% the last two years. As far as defense goes, opposing SGs averaged a 14.6 PER against harden this season compared to opposing PGs averaging a 16.5 PER against Curry.

Curry does lead Harden in terms of having dainty ankles, though, so at least there's that. :shrug:


Well I tend to come on this site to debate like most people.
As do I, but I think this debate is just coming up because of an extremely small sample size of this first round series. If you had made this thread right after the regular season, I doubt very seriously you would have any takers for Curry over Harden. I think it's unfair to to judge them based solely on four games of their entire season, and I think this is a debate we'll have many, many, many more times over the next few years.

Personally, I'd rather have this debate next season after they've had one full season of dominance under their belt as the No. 1 option and we're not shocked by how good their teams have been. Next season, IMO, will be the true testament to who the better player is.

Chronz
04-30-2013, 01:50 PM
How efficient is he without cp3? That's a honest question ( i don't know).He might get similar stats but how efficient is he?
2 straight years (including playoffs) of being more efficient (not by a large margin) without him on the court. 2 things can be true about this revelation, that hes the same guy regardless, and that hes unable to take it up a notch in either area, hes basically always at his average. Regardless if thats a strength/weakness, you cannot say he relies on anyone.

If you watch us play or understand stats, you can see why his skillset allows him to play this way. Hes basically a Power-PointForward. Without CP3 his passing skills are fully utilized. He would be more of a 20-9-6 type player if he was the number 1 option, in the future Im hoping for that scoring to go way up but hes not a very instinctual player when it comes to his own scoring.


But I the sake of this topic I would go harden/ curry then Blake I am sorry he doesn't pass the eye test for me.
No need to apologize, we're all entitled to believing what our eyes tell us, my only complaint was with regards to your claims about Blake's game. Its clear you dont watch him enough to fully grasp his abilities.


Stats can be deceiving.
So can eyes, whats your point? Its the combination of the 2 that provides a clearer understanding of a player.


Lastly you shouldnt make excuses for a player y his rebounds are down.
Its not an excuse, its a consequence of his defensive improvement. He rebounded better in the past because he would focus mostly on his man and we didn't utilize his athleticism to blitz ball handlers and send help on the strong side box. I'd love for his rebounding to improve, my only point is that the payoff has been well worth the risk.


He might be playing better defense but you can't box out? That's hard to believe.
Thats because you havent seen his progression over the years. There is no "might be playing better defense" he IS playing better defense, its literally a night and day difference from years past, its troubling that you haven't caught on, and is yet another clue as to why I question what you think your eyes are telling you.



This is suppose to be a center piece of ur team but yet his free throws are bad ill give him average d and for a guy that can jump out the gym he should get a lot more blocks than he gets. I would rather have boozer than Blake honestly. Totally off topic I know but for the sake of convo I would take a lot of pf over Blake at this point
Im confident that you're in the minority and have very little in the way of factual evidence. Not sure what the FT thing is suppose to hint at, being a bad FT shooter (much improved BTW) doesn't disqualify you from being a center piece. In fact, if thats the worst thing someone can mention, that makes you a very effective one. Even a bad free throw shooter can make 50%, hes around 60% IIRC, that means if you send him to the line intentionally, he will on average score at a higher rate than most players do from the field.

tredigs
04-30-2013, 02:06 PM
First off, Harden averaged more steals per game, steals per 36 minutes and a higher STL% this season, so I'm pretty sure that makes him better. And saying Curry is a better scorer isn't fair either. Harden dominated Curry in points, points per 36 and TS% the last two years. As far as defense goes, opposing SGs averaged a 14.6 PER against harden this season compared to opposing PGs averaging a 16.5 PER against Curry.

Curry does lead Harden in terms of having dainty ankles, though, so at least there's that. :shrug:


As do I, but I think this debate is just coming up because of an extremely small sample size of this first round series. If you had made this thread right after the regular season, I doubt very seriously you would have any takers for Curry over Harden. I think it's unfair to to judge them based solely on four games of their entire season, and I think this is a debate we'll have many, many, many more times over the next few years.

Personally, I'd rather have this debate next season after they've had one full season of dominance under their belt as the No. 1 option and we're not shocked by how good their teams have been. Next season, IMO, will be the true testament to who the better player is.

Based on RAPM (far more predictable gauge than Opp PER), Curry was a neutral defender last season, and despite them recently taking down the current stats for this season (which means the guy was hired by an NBA team), Curry was a positive defender this season. Harden was -1.1 per 100 possessions last season and I think worse off this season, but we never got to see the end results. As far as steal% (farthest thing from a be all for a guard defender, but can help as long as you aren't cheating too much), Harden did lead him in steal% this regular season, but it was the first case of that happening in 4 years. Curry also currently leads the playoffs in steals.

Curry having a 6.4 career rebound% from the point > 7.2 career rebound% from SG.

Curry is also obviously the much better shooter and playmaker (just his presence on the court is a floor spacer better than anyone else in the league - including KD until possibly just recently with Westbrook out and Durant seeing so many deep doubles). But still, a better passer with a lower turnover%.

Really, all around, Curry's just a more dangerous player on the court. Harden benefits greatly from being so aggressive in drawing contact, and that does make this a good debate as far as pure production goes on account of that - but ever since around late December of this year, the advantage is Steph.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 02:20 PM
Steph and it's not close.

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 02:38 PM
That's because Harden gets to the line over 10 times a game...

Are you counting that as a negative ? :confused:

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:41 PM
First off, Harden averaged more steals per game, steals per 36 minutes and a higher STL% this season, so I'm pretty sure that makes him better. And saying Curry is a better scorer isn't fair either. Harden dominated Curry in points, points per 36 and TS% the last two years. As far as defense goes, opposing SGs averaged a 14.6 PER against harden this season compared to opposing PGs averaging a 16.5 PER against Curry.

Curry does lead Harden in terms of having dainty ankles, though, so at least there's that. :shrug:


As do I, but I think this debate is just coming up because of an extremely small sample size of this first round series. If you had made this thread right after the regular season, I doubt very seriously you would have any takers for Curry over Harden. I think it's unfair to to judge them based solely on four games of their entire season, and I think this is a debate we'll have many, many, many more times over the next few years.

Personally, I'd rather have this debate next season after they've had one full season of dominance under their belt as the No. 1 option and we're not shocked by how good their teams have been. Next season, IMO, will be the true testament to who the better player is.

PG's average higher PER because we are in the point guard era. Not a SG era. In terms of pure scoring Harden will never dream of being on Curry's level. He just better at getting all the calls and going to the stripe. Like I said, better passer and better leader=Curry. Leading a better team. Steph is averaging 3 SPG in the playoffs and he came into true for after ASB. Better than Harden after ASB by miles. Harden has been an absolute chucker recently and is getting a bulk of his points from the line. Curry is a better offensive player in literally every way. Better shooter, better driver. Harden just gets the calls.

Curry was coming off an injury covered season so of course he's going to be rusty. Missing the ASG was a blessing because it game him some much needed rest. Now that he's healthy we can decide who's better. My vote goes with Curry. But as you said, both studs.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:42 PM
Are you counting that as a negative ? :confused:

I was responding to your statement. Proving Steph Curry is more efficient. Nothing is wrong with getting to the stripe, I'm just saying Harden averages more points on less shots because he gets to the FT line all the damn time.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:43 PM
Harden: Since I'm chucking let me just travel through the lain and throw my arms up
Ref: Calls foul

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 02:44 PM
Harden is not better at getting steals.

Shooting: Curry
Natural Scoring: Curry :laugh:
Getting to the line: Harden
Passing: Curry
Rebounding: Harden
Defense: tie no...
Intangibles/leadership: Curry hell to the no
Clutch situations: Curry
Traveling without being caught: Harden

Natural scoring? If scoring less shots on more attempts is considered better "natural scoring " then you must have taken a blow to the head. Defense MBT covered that. Leadership I would love to see you prove this other than wild speculation.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 02:44 PM
Everyone conveniently forgets how the Dubs have to beat the refs along with the opposing team on a consistent basis. If the Warriors got fair calls almost every players stat line would be more positively skewed.

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 02:45 PM
I was responding to your statement. Proving Steph Curry is more efficient. Nothing is wrong with getting to the stripe, I'm just saying Harden averages more points on less shots because he gets to the FT line all the damn time.

So that means he is the better scorer.... Free throws are the most efficient way to score hence Harden is more efficient. Harden scores more points on a higher TS%

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 02:45 PM
Everyone conveniently forgets how the Dubs have to beat the refs along with the opposing team on a consistent basis. If the Warriors got fair calls almost every players stat line would be positively skewed.

Clearly you didn't watch the Rockets game last night .....

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:48 PM
Natural scoring? If scoring less shots on more attempts is considered better "natural scoring " then you must have taken a blow to the head. Defense MBT covered that. Leadership I would love to see you prove this other than wild speculation.

Because he goes to the line all the time. Are you incapable of reading and comprehending? Curry scores an unbelievable amount of unassisted points and his FG% are all higher than Hardens. If you get to the line more you're going to score more because FTs aren't accounted in FG%. If FTs didn't exist Curry would absolutely dominate Harden in PPG.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:48 PM
Clearly you didn't watch the Rockets game last night .....

Clearly you didn't watch that Lakers game a couple weeks ago...

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 02:51 PM
Because he goes to the line all the time. Are you incapable of reading and comprehending? Curry scores an unbelievable amount of unassisted points and his FG% are all higher than Hardens. If you get to the line more you're going to score more because FTs aren't accounted in FG%. If FTs didn't exist Curry would absolutely dominate Harden in PPG.

:laugh: x1000 that was almost as dumb as the what rule would you remove out of bounds or back court violation thread. They are a part of the game. TS% >>>>> FG%. Harden is the more efficient scorer. Just because Harden is better at driving the lane and drawing contact you can't hold that against him. That's like saying if you removed the 3 point line Curry wouldn't even be in the NBA.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 02:52 PM
I was responding to your statement. Proving Steph Curry is more efficient. Nothing is wrong with getting to the stripe, I'm just saying Harden averages more points on less shots because he gets to the FT line all the damn time.

Next time you see a Stephen Curry thread sit back don't type anything and read everything tredigs types. Your understanding of stats and more importantly how a player goes about getting them is SERVERELY lacking.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:55 PM
:laugh: x1000 that was almost as dumb as the what rule would you remove out of bounds or back court violation thread. They are a part of the game. TS% >>>>> FG%. Harden is the more efficient scorer. Just because Harden is better at driving the lane and drawing contact you can't hold that against him. That's like saying if you removed the 3 point line Curry wouldn't even be in the NBA.

Funny because Steph takes less than half his shots behind the arc. Take away 3P and Steph averages about 18-19 PPG. Take away FT and Harden averages about 17 PPG. That was my only point. Not worth getting all madbro laugh x1000 about. Just saying.

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 02:58 PM
Funny because Steph takes less than half his shots behind the arc. Take away 3P and Steph averages about 18-19 PPG. Take away FT and Harden averages about 17 PPG. That was my only point. Not worth getting all madbro laugh x1000 about. Just saying.

Wow and you took that seriously? Free throws are part of the game, they are the most efficient way to score. Your argument is invalid.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 02:58 PM
So wait a player has the ability to understand that the highest percentage shot in basketball is a FREE throw and he's chastised for it as a result. I remember in high school when my coach praised our C for his ability to get to the line and cussed me out for not doing enough to get there more despite being the best FT shooter. These basic fundamentals of basketball seem to be severely lacking here on PSD.

Did this guy really say if there was no FT line? Not to the misinformed the FT line was around before the 3pt line.

How do you ink they'd fair as scorers if there was no 3pt line?

Now see how foolish that sounds? Thats the way you sounded just now.

LayBraun
04-30-2013, 02:58 PM
Harden
Curry
Rubio
Blake

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 02:59 PM
Next time you see a Stephen Curry thread sit back don't type anything and read everything tredigs types. Your understanding of stats and more importantly how a player goes about getting them is SERVERELY lacking.

I know exactly what TS% is and how a higher or lower TS% is acquired. So please give an example.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 03:06 PM
OK so I said some dumb ****. I get real homerish and defensive about my Curry. Doesn't mean I can't comprehend advanced stats, something that's relatively easy to understand. Harden and Curry are great players. Harden gets to the line all the time, and as a result averages more points than Curry on less shots despite Curry having a nice edge in eFG%. Why? Because Harden draws a lot of contact and gets to the charity stripe. However the statement I made about Curry getting rid of the rust come the ASB and then showing his true form was correct. Curry has been beautiful as of late and Harden hasn't. In fact in the playoffs Curry has been miles above Harden. But as someone previously stated, the Nuggets aren't as strong a defensive unit as the Thunder. This is a forum. The things I say on here don't reflect how I would act if you and I had a debate concerning the same players in real life.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 03:08 PM
From the eye test I feel Lawson overwhelms his opponent more than Curry does. If we're looking at the past 4 games as an example then obviously people will have a solid argument for Steph, and rightfully so. The PG position is stacked and we don't really have any elite two way PG's in the league at the moment.



There aren't really any two-way PG's that are elite defensively anyways. Hou and GSW offenses are structured differently than Denver's and augment Harden and Steph's game. Steph is a very very skilled player but so far in their respective careers Lawson has been better overall. Doesn't mean Steph won't be better in the future as I think he will be.

Houston's pace inflates their players statistics IMO. Considering that Morey puts such a large amount of stock into advanced statistics, there's no doubt that they look to maximize statistical performance.

Harden's a very good player, to me he's similar to Mitch Richmond & a bit back of prime VC.

I don't know how much more effective he'll ever be though. I mean, he is young but his Usg is already top 10 in the league and his %ages are meh.

Problem is pace has virtually zero effect on a player's advanced statistics. Try again.

Procision
04-30-2013, 03:10 PM
Love Curry's game but going to go with Harden because of his driving and breaking down a defense ability.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 03:10 PM
I know exactly what TS% is and how a higher or lower TS% is acquired. So please give an example.
:clap:

Problem is pace has virtually zero effect on a player's advanced statistics. Try again.
This.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 03:10 PM
I know exactly what TS% is and how a higher or lower TS% is acquired. So please give an example.

Read Tre's posts. You'd learn. I mean even though he's arguing for Steph he's keeping it rational. You said Curry is a more efficient which isn't true. Is he right up there with Harden? SURE but he isn't more efficient.

I wish you can start wishing that Curry can develop Harden's ability of getting to the line instead of being a dope and chastising Harden for it. I bet if Curry did you'd shut your trap about him getting to the line as frequently as Harden is now.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 03:13 PM
Curry would get to the line more often if the refs would blow the whistle when they should.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 03:13 PM
Read Tre's posts. You'd learn. I mean even though he's arguing for Steph he's keeping it rational. You said Curry is a more efficient which isn't true. Is he right up there with Harden? SURE but he isn't more efficient.

I wish you can start wishing that Curry can develop Harden's ability of getting to the line instead of being a dope and chastising Harden for it. I bet if Curry did you'd shut your trap about him getting to the line as frequently as Harden is now.

Learn what??? I don't need to learn anything. I understand all advanced stats, what they stand for, how they are acquired, who's the best at acquiring those stats, everything. Like I said this is a forum and I'm a homer.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 03:18 PM
Learn what??? I don't need to learn anything. I understand all advanced stats, what they stand for, how they are acquired, who's the best at acquiring those stats, everything. Like I said this is a forum and I'm a homer.

You can say it and continue saying it all you want. Fact is your posts say something completely different.

SugeKnight
04-30-2013, 03:19 PM
Curry>Harden <-All you need to say

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 03:19 PM
Curry would get to the line more often if the refs would blow the whistle when they should.

Eh, Harden gets to the paint more and draws contact, although a lot of the time it seems like he's just throwing his arms up. But Harden led the league in and-1s last time I checked?

tredigs
04-30-2013, 03:19 PM
I agree with Swash, you can't just brush off the ability to draw contact as some fluke. It's a serious art; both a combo of having the 2.0 version of Manu's 2 step, a body capable of taking constant contact, handles + finishing ability (his rim finishing ability is up there - it's a bit better than Curry's and a healthy D. Rose. That makes contesting the shot that much more pressured on the D) and yeah - some showmanship.

There are a LOT of players who try to do what Harden does and can't. I still think Curry is the better/more dangerous player by a slight margin, but constantly putting a team under that much pressure in the block and forcing the D into foul trouble is huge for a team. I wish the Warriors had more of it from Klay and co.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 03:19 PM
Curry would get to the line more often if the refs would blow the whistle when they should.

Quite honestly every team in the NBA has fans who'd say this about there players. Every single 76ers game we complain about the none calls our players keep getting.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 03:21 PM
You can say it and continue saying it all you want. Fact is your posts say something completely different.

My posts on an online forum...

Guppyfighter
04-30-2013, 03:21 PM
James Harden is better and he does it at a position with less talent.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 03:22 PM
Swashcuff is only reading the first sentence of every post.

ThaDubs
04-30-2013, 03:23 PM
OK so I said some dumb ****. I get real homerish and defensive about my Curry. Doesn't mean I can't comprehend advanced stats, something that's relatively easy to understand. Harden and Curry are great players. Harden gets to the line all the time, and as a result averages more points than Curry on less shots despite Curry having a nice edge in eFG%. Why? Because Harden draws a lot of contact and gets to the charity stripe. However the statement I made about Curry getting rid of the rust come the ASB and then showing his true form was correct. Curry has been beautiful as of late and Harden hasn't. In fact in the playoffs Curry has been miles above Harden. But as someone previously stated, the Nuggets aren't as strong a defensive unit as the Thunder. This is a forum. The things I say on here don't reflect how I would act if you and I had a debate concerning the same players in real life.

^ had to post this again so Swash could see what I've been trying to say last few posts.

mp3
04-30-2013, 03:23 PM
Lol I really don't think Curry would mind going to the line considering his FT%. He is more reliant on his shooting since he excels at that. Nothing wrong with that.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 03:24 PM
I agree with Swash, you can't just brush off the ability to draw contact as some fluke. It's a serious art; both a combo of having the 2.0 version of Manu's 2 step, a body capable of taking constant contact, handles + finishing ability (his rim finishing ability is up there - it's a bit better than Curry's and a healthy D. Rose. That makes contesting the shot that much more pressured on the D) and yeah - some showmanship.

There are a LOT of players who try to do what Harden does and can't. I still think Curry is the better/more dangerous player by a slight margin, but constantly putting a team under that much pressure in the block and forcing the D into foul trouble is huge for a team. I wish the Warriors had more of it from Klay and co.

Quite honestly he may be the most dangerous player in the league. On Curry's day the only player that can stop him from scoring is himself. One the ball is in his hand and he's on the basketball floor he's a threat to make any shot he so chooses and consistently as well. He does get to the line at a solid rate as well but the only thing offensively he may need to develop is increasing that solid rate but when you shoot as good as the from the field as he does its very seldom you'd need to get to the line. I mean most players like to attack the paint and attempt to get to the line a bit more when their shot isn't falling. There's hardly ever an instance where Curry's isn't. As for Harden's showmanship he's damn right if the refs are calling it why the hell not? If he was on anyone of our teams we'd be 100% okay with it.

b@llhog24
04-30-2013, 03:25 PM
OK so I said some dumb ****. I get real homerish and defensive about my Curry. Doesn't mean I can't comprehend advanced stats, something that's relatively easy to understand. Harden and Curry are great players. Harden gets to the line all the time, and as a result averages more points than Curry on less shots despite Curry having a nice edge in eFG%. Why? Because Harden draws a lot of contact and gets to the charity stripe. However the statement I made about Curry getting rid of the rust come the ASB and then showing his true form was correct. Curry has been beautiful as of late and Harden hasn't. In fact in the playoffs Curry has been miles above Harden. But as someone previously stated, the Nuggets aren't as strong a defensive unit as the Thunder. This is a forum. The things I say on here don't reflect how I would act if you and I had a debate concerning the same players in real life.

Problem is TS is a better metric than eFG for gauging scoring efficiency. And saying Curry was better since ASB is correct, but doesn't mean people have to accept it as a means off who's the better player. Some like to look at the whole season.

Lake_Show2416
04-30-2013, 03:36 PM
Curry is better than Harden & with Curry continuing to elevate his awareness around the league that in turn will start to bring him more "superstar" calls when driving to the basket

tredigs
04-30-2013, 03:37 PM
Problem is TS is a better metric than eFG for gauging scoring efficiency. And saying Curry was better since ASB is correct, but doesn't mean people have to accept it as a means off who's the better player. Some like to look at the whole season.

Agree, though Curry was coming off surgery and had not played in the NBA for a while. I think that explains the slow start. So along with all around play, his TS% was also better from ~Jan on. For me, better/more dangerous? Curry. More dependable and who you want on your team for the duration of a contract? I think most say Harden, and it's the safe bet. That said, I like to gamble.

blahblahyoutoo
04-30-2013, 03:41 PM
even as a Rockets fan, i would take Curry over Harden. Curry is a better scorer then Harden...they both shoot about 17 shots a game, but Curry converts a higher percentage of them...he has a better FG% than Harden and a waaaaaaaay better 3P%. The only reason why Harden averages more points is because Harden shoots more free throws a game. Curry only attempts 4 free throws a game while Harden attempts 10. Analytics wise...this is great. It makes Harden a more efficient player despite Curry's better FG% and 3P%. But in terms of actual basketball in the traditional sense, Curry's the better, more efficient scorer.

Curry's also a better clutch player. Harden is atrocious in clutch situations. Because Harden's game is so reliant on drawing fouls...he tends to either miss horribly or turn the ball over in clutch situations trying to draw fouls when the refs typically don't call fouls and just let the players play. Curry, on the other hand, lights it up as he has been doing all playoffs this year.

yup, i always thought harden was a little out of control and his shot isn't as consistent.

blahblahyoutoo
04-30-2013, 04:14 PM
Curry attempts .7 more shots per game yet averages 3 less points per game...

Free. Throws.

PraiseJesus
04-30-2013, 04:16 PM
Haha Curry will perpetually be underrated and underappreciated.

Hes easily the best player of this draft class.

b@llhog24
04-30-2013, 04:24 PM
Agree, though Curry was coming off surgery and had not played in the NBA for a while. I think that explains the slow start. So along with all around play, his TS% was also better from ~Jan on. For me, better/more dangerous? Curry. More dependable and who you want on your team for the duration of a contract? I think most say Harden, and it's the safe bet. That said, I like to gamble.

No gripes with that.


Haha Curry will perpetually be underrated and underappreciated.

Hes easily the best player of this draft class.

Hey there. Remember this (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?739695-Boycott-the-NBA)?

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 04:33 PM
Free. Throws.

Lolololol yeah I forgot they are fake points.

alexander_37
04-30-2013, 04:34 PM
Free. Throws.

Lolololol yeah I forgot they are fake points.

R. Johnson#3
04-30-2013, 04:39 PM
Right now he is.

But at the end of the day, if he can stay healthy, it will be Rubio.

OKC
04-30-2013, 04:49 PM
just one thing, Harden is better than Curry in the clutch.

R. Johnson#3
04-30-2013, 04:52 PM
just one thing, Harden is better than Curry in the clutch.

That 36% FG pct and 16% 3pt pct really back your post up. Not to mention Harden's double double last game with turnovers.

tredigs
04-30-2013, 04:53 PM
just one thing, Harden is better than Curry in the clutch.

Could argue the playoffs are just one big succession of "clutch". So far so good for Curry on that note.


Right now he is.

But at the end of the day, if he can stay healthy, it will be Rubio.
He has a ways to go from a shooting aspect. Love Rubio's all around game though.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 04:57 PM
That 36% FG pct and 16% 3pt pct really back your post up.

You mean 40.2% and 28% (http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT11.HTM) right? Curry isn't too much to boast about at 37% and 28% respectively. Difference is however Harden gets to the line at a much better rate and that's a major reason why he can be argued as being better in the clutch.

R. Johnson#3
04-30-2013, 04:57 PM
He has a ways to go from a shooting aspect. Love Rubio's all around game though.

Hence why I said at the end of the day. Rubio has a ridiculous amount of talent though. If he can just get his shot going then defenders will actually have to play him tight.

OKC
04-30-2013, 04:58 PM
That 36% FG pct and 16% 3pt pct really back your post up. Not to mention Harden's double double last game with turnovers.

over the course of the regular season, Curry shot 37.3% from the field and 28.1% from three in clutch situations.

R. Johnson#3
04-30-2013, 04:59 PM
You mean 40.2% and 28% (http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT11.HTM) right? Curry isn't too much to boast about at 37% and 28% respectively. Difference is however Harden gets to the line at a much better rate and that's a major reason why he can be argued as being better in the clutch.

No I meant what I said. Every second in the playoffs is clutch and those are Harden's numbers right now. Curry's are actually 50% FG 47% 3PT and perfect from the stripe. Yeah, I'd say he's more clutch than Harden.

R. Johnson#3
04-30-2013, 05:00 PM
over the course of the regular season, Curry shot 37.3% from the field and 28.1% from three in clutch situations.

Okay, is it the regular season right now? It's a whole different game in the playoffs. Curry is showing up. Harden is not.

OKC
04-30-2013, 05:03 PM
No I meant what I said. Every second in the playoffs is clutch and those are Harden's numbers right now. Curry's are actually 50% FG 47% 3PT and perfect from the stripe. Yeah, I'd say he's more clutch than Harden.

I don't agree with the assumption that the entire playoff games are considered clutch situations but even if they are, theres more to it.
curry is guarded by ty Lawson while harden is guarden mostly be sefelosha.

tredigs
04-30-2013, 05:07 PM
Curry was also great in the clutch in his last full season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

Doesn't look like Harden qualified there that season. They're just small sample sets with high variance. Playoffs are much more indicative of who's better when it matters most.


I don't agree with the assumption that the entire playoff games are considered clutch situations but even if they are, theres more to it.
curry is guarded by ty Lawson while harden is guarden mostly be sefelosha.

Absolutely there is more to it, but to say Curry is "guarded by Lawson" shows you're not watching the games. They're double teaming him off the ball, and have been plenty of possessions where the best perimeter defender in the game (Iggy) has been thrown on him.

OceanSpray
04-30-2013, 05:08 PM
Curry in Houston wouldn't be shooting with that %.

tredigs
04-30-2013, 05:09 PM
Curry in Houston wouldn't be shooting with that %.
Why not? How much closer can teams try to guard him? The secret's out that you can't let him take an open shot within 30 feet.

Hopefully Curry and the Warriors will advance and we can see some bigger sample sets of this.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 05:12 PM
No I meant what I said. Every second in the playoffs is clutch and those are Harden's numbers right now. Curry's are actually 50% FG 47% 3PT and perfect from the stripe. Yeah, I'd say he's more clutch than Harden.

So we base our entire definition of clutch on 4 post season games. Interesting. How was Harden shooting in the first four games last postseason?

Harden shot 50% from the field 46.1% from the 3 and 87% from the line. Who's more clutch? Why not wait before we have a larger sample size against different opponents before you can throw some concrete on that foundation?

As it stands right now Harden has the edge in terms of clutch. Sure Curry has been better than Harden this post season (4 games) but that doesn't outweigh the body of work across the entirety of the (82 game) season.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 05:17 PM
Curry in Houston wouldn't be shooting with that %.

Wow do tell us more of what you see in that crystal ball of yours. If you've ever watched Curry play you'd realize he's a SPECIAL shooter. Like on the path of being the greatest ever special.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 06:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj5fnqJDXwE

AlexStr
04-30-2013, 06:46 PM
Why not? How much closer can teams try to guard him? The secret's out that you can't let him take an open shot within 30 feet.

Hopefully Curry and the Warriors will advance and we can see some bigger sample sets of this.

Is 4 years in the league not a large enough sample set?

Year 1 = 18PPG, 44% 3PT
Year 2 = 19PPG, 44% 3PT
Year 3 *Injured, played only 28 games* = 15PPG, 45% 3PT
Year 4 = 23 PPG, 45% 3PT
Playoffs = 27PPG, 47% 3PT

Dude has played 24 months in the NBA, and has shot below 40% 3PT in only 4 of those months.

tredigs
04-30-2013, 06:53 PM
Is 4 years in the league not a large enough sample set?

Year 1 = 18PPG, 44% 3PT
Year 2 = 19PPG, 44% 3PT
Year 3 *Injured, played only 28 games* = 15PPG, 45% 3PT
Year 4 = 23 PPG, 45% 3PT
Playoffs = 27PPG, 47% 3PT

Dude has played 24 months in the NBA, and has shot below 40% 3PT in only 4 of those months.
I know, I've seen it all. Plus his record shattering career at Davidson where he single handidly almost took out the eventual champs in the elite 8 as a sophomore (on a team that had not won a tournament game in decades). He's really not a shooter than can be stopped, and now that I think he's fully embraced this (upping his 3's per game to over 8 since Jan, and up to 9.5 in the playoffs), everyone's ****ed. Have to pray he gets injured if you're not a fan of the kid. Really the only way to slow down his offense at this point. I'm just enjoying the show. It's way too fun to get caught up in the #'s or comparisons too much tbh.

bgdreton
04-30-2013, 06:56 PM
You do know statistically Blake played good without CP3? The only thing that went up was his FG percentage from .506% to .549%. As for your bold statement, boy oh boy I wish you was in the Clippers front office, I'd do that in a heartbeat :laugh2:

I don't know that y I asked the question I did. I really just am not high on Blake I'm sorry he doesn't pass the eye test with me. Of the three he would be last on my list. He doesn't make players around him better that's the biggest deal I have with him. He can't dominate enough to make a difference right now.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 07:04 PM
Lee > Blake.

Guppyfighter
04-30-2013, 07:06 PM
Lee > Blake.

No. That's not true.

And Lee is our third best player when Bogut is fully healthy.

Lee is a good scorer, but his per game stats give him an exaggerated impact. And he is good. Just not as good as some Warrior fans think.

Heediot
04-30-2013, 07:12 PM
Curry was ****ing clutch since his College days. If you ask me who I want the with the ball in his hands late in the game it's Curry over Harden. There has to be a balance between the guy that doesn't shrink in big moments, and efficiency. How do you measure heart? I just think it's an instinctive thing, just like you know which one of your buddies has heart.

Tony_Starks
04-30-2013, 07:13 PM
Steph is definitely the man but I still go with Blake. Blake has already improved his passing and is a mid-range J away from being unstoppable. Plus Steph has glass ankles already, that is not going to get better with time....

lol, please
04-30-2013, 07:15 PM
No. That's not true.

And Lee is our third best player when Bogut is fully healthy.

Lee is a good scorer, but his per game stats give him an exaggerated impact. And he is good. Just not as good as some Warrior fans think.Shh...such a buzzkiller somtimes guppy. :laugh2:

odiz
04-30-2013, 07:17 PM
Right now he is.

But at the end of the day, if he can stay healthy, it will be Rubio.

Ha. You have to be able to put the ball in the hoop to be an elite basketball player.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 07:21 PM
^That guy was just trolling. The only correct answer is Curry.

bgdreton
04-30-2013, 07:22 PM
I would take Lee over Blake any day right now. Didn't lee dominate most not all head to head match ups vs him this year? Lee is a better passer than Blake, lee has a way better shot than Blake, lee can rebound better than Blake almost 3 per. Assist are almost equal. The only thing that Blake has an advantage is jumping ability. Blake can only hurt you in the post. If you don't go for his stupid pump fakes and force him left then you pretty much stopped him. Where as lee can hit an outside shot drive in and finish with either hand. If I was 6'10 guarding Blake I would give him jumpers all day until he proves to me he can make them consistent. He is an easy guard if you think about it, and if he gets passed you just foul him bc he is a bad free throw shooter.

lol, please
04-30-2013, 07:25 PM
Don't come with facts bgdreton, they aren't valid in the NBA Forum.

Guppyfighter
04-30-2013, 07:35 PM
Lee is the better offensive player ignoring usage. Griffin and Lee are roughly equal rebounders. Griffin plays much better defense.


That being said. Griffin is better once you adjust for usage on offense and the defense makes it not a good comparison.

Griffin if you want to win more.

mightybosstone
04-30-2013, 08:04 PM
Based on RAPM (far more predictable gauge than Opp PER), Curry was a neutral defender last season, and despite them recently taking down the current stats for this season (which means the guy was hired by an NBA team), Curry was a positive defender this season. Harden was -1.1 per 100 possessions last season and I think worse off this season, but we never got to see the end results. As far as steal% (farthest thing from a be all for a guard defender, but can help as long as you aren't cheating too much), Harden did lead him in steal% this regular season, but it was the first case of that happening in 4 years. Curry also currently leads the playoffs in steals.
I still wouldn't give Curry the edge defensively. And I don't think that a four-game sample size is enough to give Curry the edge in steals. Was he better prior to this season? Yes. But this is also Harden's first year as a starter, so I almost feel like we have to throw a lot of numbers out the window prior to this year.


Curry having a 6.4 career rebound% from the point > 7.2 career rebound% from SG.
But you're acting like Curry is a true point, which isn't the case at all. He's a combo guard who plays off the ball whenever Jack comes into the game, so he still plays his fair share of 2-guard.


Curry is also obviously the much better shooter and playmaker (just his presence on the court is a floor spacer better than anyone else in the league - including KD until possibly just recently with Westbrook out and Durant seeing so many deep doubles). But still, a better passer with a lower turnover%.
I never argued Curry as the better shooter, but Harden is still the better scorer, because he's superior at getting to the rim and the foul line. Also, I think Curry would be a much more dangerous player if he took defenders off the dribble more often and drove to the basket. He's unstoppable as a perimeter shooter, but I think once teams dedicate lengthier defenders to him and double team him on the outside more often, he's got to improve that area of his game.


Really, all around, Curry's just a more dangerous player on the court. Harden benefits greatly from being so aggressive in drawing contact, and that does make this a good debate as far as pure production goes on account of that - but ever since around late December of this year, the advantage is Steph.
"More dangerous" is completely subjective. Harden has had the better year. Curry has been better since the All-Star break. Both guys have their pros and cons, and you could make a case for either guy as having the higher ceiling, but I don't think you can prove "more dangerous" to me.

Guppyfighter
04-30-2013, 08:07 PM
I also think Harden is better than Curry.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 08:14 PM
Lee better than Blake? Ummm NOPE. Lee has a more polished offensive game, is as good a passer/rebounder and is a more reliable scorer from the line. Blake's D and offensive effectiveness/efficiency/upside is what sets them apart. Blake is only going to continue to get better while Lee has basically reached his full potential.

I'd argue that with Blake instead of Lee the Warriors would be on the cusp of being legit contenders. With the GREAT deal of spacing that the Warriors offer Blake's interior dominance would be even more profound.

Swashcuff
04-30-2013, 08:17 PM
"More dangerous" is completely subjective. Harden has had the better year. Curry has been better since the All-Star break. Both guys have their pros and cons, and you could make a case for either guy as having the higher ceiling, but I don't think you can prove "more dangerous" to me.

What I think of when I think Dangerous in this sense is a guy who can on any given night take 12 bad/off balanced/contested 3 pointers and make 8 of them. That's Steph Curry and he's the only basketballer I've ever seen with that type of potential. I still think Harden is a tad better but Steph's shooting ability is scary great.

Meaze_Gibson
04-30-2013, 08:26 PM
All i know is that james harden is unreliable in playoff basketball. Also, in the last possessions of games in these playoffs, he has looked scared as if he does not want the ball. He may not be that way forever but as of now I would take Curry as the best guard in draft. For long term it would be Harden due to durability, but I take curry as a better player.

Chronz
04-30-2013, 10:29 PM
I would take Lee over Blake any day right now. Didn't lee dominate most not all head to head match ups vs him this year? Lee is a better passer than Blake, lee has a way better shot than Blake, lee can rebound better than Blake almost 3 per. Assist are almost equal. The only thing that Blake has an advantage is jumping ability. Blake can only hurt you in the post. If you don't go for his stupid pump fakes and force him left then you pretty much stopped him. Where as lee can hit an outside shot drive in and finish with either hand. If I was 6'10 guarding Blake I would give him jumpers all day until he proves to me he can make them consistent. He is an easy guard if you think about it, and if he gets passed you just foul him bc he is a bad free throw shooter.
Except that being a bad FT shooter at +60% is more efficient than a midrange jumpshot and helps your team in more ways than just scoring (penalty). You also have to use pace/minutes/efficiency adjusted rates to do an honest comparison.

PS Im waiting for your response to this: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?816863-Stephen-Curry-best-player-in-2009-draft-class&p=26098465#post26098465


Or you can keep repeating the same flawed reasoning.

Chronz
04-30-2013, 10:31 PM
Don't come with facts bgdreton, they aren't valid in the NBA Forum.
What you call facts I call misleading and erroneous. Why not use the more accurate barometers? The kind GM's utilize?
I guess we shouldn't expect him to defend his stance either..... feel free to do what he couldn't, or enjoy the game.

Chronz
04-30-2013, 10:36 PM
I don't know that y I asked the question I did. I really just am not high on Blake I'm sorry he doesn't pass the eye test with me. Of the three he would be last on my list. He doesn't make players around him better that's the biggest deal I have with him. He can't dominate enough to make a difference right now.

Well we've all seen what your eyes told you last time, so you can understand why some of us would be reluctant to trust in them. Blake is better at making his teammates better than Lee is. My eyes told me so.

bgdreton
05-01-2013, 01:39 AM
Lee better than Blake? Ummm NOPE. Lee has a more polished offensive game, is as good a passer/rebounder and is a more reliable scorer from the line. Blake's D and offensive effectiveness/efficiency/upside is what sets them apart. Blake is only going to continue to get better while Lee has basically reached his full potential.

I'd argue that with Blake instead of Lee the Warriors would be on the cusp of being legit contenders. With the GREAT deal of spacing that the Warriors offer Blake's interior dominance would be even more profound.

Dude look at what happen today he played like 20 mins had 5 points 4 reb..... Really and that is suppose to be a superstar player? He went like 2 for 7. That's living proof! I don't think lee had a game like that all year. This is the playoffs this is where u separate yourself from the good and ok players. This series he hasn't and he is a mis match for both of the grizzlies starting bigs lol it's laughable man. At this point in both of there careers lee is a better overall player.

bgdreton
05-01-2013, 01:49 AM
Well we've all seen what your eyes told you last time, so you can understand why some of us would be reluctant to trust in them. Blake is better at making his teammates better than Lee is. My eyes told me so.


Ok what happened tonight what kind player was he today? like always cp3 carried the team and Blake was a no show when is mattered most.( until he got hurt ). An who cares about potential we are talking about right now not future. Dude there were a lot of players picked high with potential that became nothing or no as good as what people thought. Randolph who can't jump over a penny to save his life is guarding the crap out of Blake. Look at the end of the day unless he is making his regular season averages or surpassing them he is below his potential. I'm really not a believer. Oh and I forgot he is not the same leader as lee either so ya. Blake suuuccckks!

bgdreton
05-01-2013, 01:51 AM
You do realize gms use other things than just stats. Some things don't show up in a stat line but that doesn't matter to you either I'm sure

Guppyfighter
05-01-2013, 03:10 AM
You do realize gms use other things than just stats. Some things don't show up in a stat line but that doesn't matter to you either I'm sure

They do for prospects. Reason being is you can coach the sport, make them better. No GM says "wow, he missed a ton of shots, but they were created missed shots so it's okay. You can definitely tell this guy is 'da bomb.' "

They don't look at what you are implying they look at.

Heediot
05-01-2013, 05:10 AM
Ok what happened tonight what kind player was he today? like always cp3 carried the team and Blake was a no show when is mattered most.( until he got hurt ). An who cares about potential we are talking about right now not future. Dude there were a lot of players picked high with potential that became nothing or no as good as what people thought. Randolph who can't jump over a penny to save his life is guarding the crap out of Blake. Look at the end of the day unless he is making his regular season averages or surpassing them he is below his potential. I'm really not a believer. Oh and I forgot he is not the same leader as lee either so ya. Blake suuuccckks!

What a moron, Blake was already injured and tried to play through the injury. He's no step Curry in the playoffs I'll give you that.

Blake needs to play with more killer instinct.

Lee has aspects of his game that are better than Blake, but even now and more-so moving forward Blake is the better player.

Swashcuff
05-01-2013, 08:13 AM
Dude look at what happen today he played like 20 mins had 5 points 4 reb..... Really and that is suppose to be a superstar player? He went like 2 for 7. That's living proof! I don't think lee had a game like that all year. This is the playoffs this is where u separate yourself from the good and ok players. This series he hasn't and he is a mis match for both of the grizzlies starting bigs lol it's laughable man. At this point in both of there careers lee is a better overall player.

Dude why in the hell do you guys blindly dislike players and don't even do your homework on them? Seriously. Get the dislike aside and use your brain. You clearly have never done the eye test on Blake if you have you won't be sayin the kind of stuff you have in this thread, you CLEARLY don't understand how to read box scores. I mean seriously from the age of 9 when I 1st got Internet and started reading box scores I knew that if a star player played just 20 minutes in a playoff game as crucial as this there is a large chance that he got injured or ejected in most cases injured.

You didn't even watch the game and you're in here babbling on. Seriously. Honestly I don't mind you not watching the game but what I can't understand is how someone can't ascertain that something must have been wrong if Blake only played 20 minutes in a game. Griffin came into the game injured (hurt his ankle in Monday's practice) and had to leave the floor in the 8th minute of the game he tries his best to play through the pain but was unable to. Dude couldn't even walk on his own after the game.

Try again.

Swashcuff
05-01-2013, 08:25 AM
You do realize gms use other things than just stats. Some things don't show up in a stat line but that doesn't matter to you either I'm sure

Do you know that Mark Cuban is on record of saying that he built the 2010-2011 Mavericks solely on advanced statistical analysis? What did that team do? Do you know that on every single team in the league have designated "stat guys" on board for not only making decisions on how to build the roster but also how to play other teams. Yup that's right even coaches (http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/tech/post/_/id/492/492) are getting into this "stats" thing. There are GMs in the league who started off as "stats" guys Hollinger has been credited for helping make the Grizzlies a better team because of his statistical approach but you're telling us that you rather use YOUR eyes? :laugh:

Dude basketball looks much different through your eyes as they look through the eyes of someone who has a better understanding of what they see. You can say Blake doesn't pass the eye test all you wanted but I'd bet good money that had he been on the Warriors he'd be the best PF in the NBA to you. Get real. Oh and stop dodging Chronz's earlier post I await your response to that.

SeoulBeatz
05-01-2013, 08:30 AM
Better than Blake imo.

Steph>Harden>Blake>Holiday>Lawson>Jennings>Rubio>Reke>Derozan

pretty darn good draft for PG's

bartron_44
05-01-2013, 09:00 AM
Curry is probably the best player in that draft class...dude is a stat sheet stuffer, and basically impossible to stop with his range and lightning quick release. He shoots over 45% from the field, 43% from behind the arc, and 90% from the FT line. He may be the best shooter in the NBA. He also dished out 7 ast and grabbed 4 rebounds, and had 1.6 stls per game this year.

he also has a former PG for a head coach who knows how to play. I see this kid only getting better and better.

Chronz
05-01-2013, 01:58 PM
Ok what happened tonight what kind player was he today? like always cp3 carried the team and Blake was a no show when is mattered most.( until he got hurt ). An who cares about potential we are talking about right now not future. Dude there were a lot of players picked high with potential that became nothing or no as good as what people thought. Randolph who can't jump over a penny to save his life is guarding the crap out of Blake. Look at the end of the day unless he is making his regular season averages or surpassing them he is below his potential. I'm really not a believer. Oh and I forgot he is not the same leader as lee either so ya. Blake suuuccckks!

Who said anything about potential. Blake is playing through back spasms and a bad leg.

Wheres David Lee? See why its stupid to base a players ability while hes not himself?

LOL at you saying he sucks, yeah totally sound judgement your showing. If anything sucks its your flawed eyes.

Chronz
05-01-2013, 02:01 PM
Except that the things stats dont measure only make Blames case stronger against a pathetic defender like Lee. Don't be mad cuz you have nothing but your flawed eyes and no way of substantiating your opinion.

Your lack of a rebuttal to that surgical destruction of your post is very telling.

ztilzer31
05-01-2013, 02:38 PM
I definitely think Blake is the most overrated player in the league. Clippers remind me so much of the 90's Sonics. There were a bunch of Kemp fans back then too, but Kemp was a poor rebounder (better than Griffin though) and played mediocre defense (Griffin is better defensively). Paul/Payton are really nothing alike from the PG position, but both were the sole reasons for their teams success IMO.

Stephen Curry has been a beast this year. Followed by Harden. Then Blake. I might be a little hard on Harden because of his atrocious play last year in the finals. He choked hard. Lost confidence by game 3, and started passing up shots that he should of taken. Just straight wide open 3's. Stephen Curry could be a top 5 player in the league in 3 years. As long as he stays healthy.

alexander_37
05-01-2013, 03:28 PM
I definitely think Blake is the most overrated player in the league. Clippers remind me so much of the 90's Sonics. There were a bunch of Kemp fans back then too, but Kemp was a poor rebounder (better than Griffin though) and played mediocre defense (Griffin is better defensively). Paul/Payton are really nothing alike from the PG position, but both were the sole reasons for their teams success IMO.

Stephen Curry has been a beast this year. Followed by Harden. Then Blake. I might be a little hard on Harden because of his atrocious play last year in the finals. He choked hard. Lost confidence by game 3, and started passing up shots that he should of taken. Just straight wide open 3's. Stephen Curry could be a top 5 player in the league in 3 years. As long as he stays healthy.

Except Harden is already borderline top 5 while Curry is borderline top 10.

ChiSox219
05-01-2013, 03:55 PM
I definitely think Blake is the most overrated player in the league. Clippers remind me so much of the 90's Sonics. There were a bunch of Kemp fans back then too, but Kemp was a poor rebounder (better than Griffin though) and played mediocre defense (Griffin is better defensively). Paul/Payton are really nothing alike from the PG position, but both were the sole reasons for their teams success IMO.


your memory is **** if you think Kemp was a poor rebounder

Tony_Starks
05-01-2013, 04:43 PM
I definitely think Blake is the most overrated player in the league. Clippers remind me so much of the 90's Sonics. There were a bunch of Kemp fans back then too, but Kemp was a poor rebounder (better than Griffin though) and played mediocre defense (Griffin is better defensively). Paul/Payton are really nothing alike from the PG position, but both were the sole reasons for their teams success IMO.

Stephen Curry has been a beast this year. Followed by Harden. Then Blake. I might be a little hard on Harden because of his atrocious play last year in the finals. He choked hard. Lost confidence by game 3, and started passing up shots that he should of taken. Just straight wide open 3's. Stephen Curry could be a top 5 player in the league in 3 years. As long as he stays healthy.


If you think Kemp was a poor rebounder/ mediocre defender I would seriously question you're basketball knowledge. He crashed the boards and was one of the first dudes I remember snatching peoples shots off the backboards. PLUS had a decent midrange. He got to the finals and olympics for a reason, just goofed off his career with drugs.

As far as Harden goes he didn't just choke in the finals he's shooting like 18% from 3 right now and completely choked in their must win game at home. If not for Parson saving his a ss he'd be fishing right now.....

LeperMessiah
05-01-2013, 05:46 PM
Curry

bgdreton
05-01-2013, 08:12 PM
Who said anything about potential. Blake is playing through back spasms and a bad leg.

Wheres David Lee? See why its stupid to base a players ability while hes not himself?

LOL at you saying he sucks, yeah totally sound judgement your showing. If anything sucks its your flawed eyes.

Lol this discussion has got really off track. Look Blake is not that good. Since 2010 most of his stats have fell pretty considerably. Lee has kept his average or increased since. I'm not going to pull number because you obviously can look them up. So with lee stats going up each year does that mean he has hit a plateau? If I were just looking at numbers on a paper( bc thats all that matters when choosing a player.....) then I would conclude that Blake is declining and lee is getting better. Honestly there is nothing that either of u guys can tell me that makes me believe that right now Blake is a better player sorry guys. Blake has special talent with no skill. Until he learns how to play basketball I'm not convinced. Oh and I was trolling when I said he sucks.. He is a good player and wish him the best. I'm am done with this argument and would like to move on. Blake is the 3rd best player in the draft that year. Thanks for the moron call I really appreciated that stay classy! : ) my bad it was heediot that said that.

bgdreton
05-01-2013, 10:52 PM
Except that the things stats dont measure only make Blames case stronger against a pathetic defender like Lee. Don't be mad cuz you have nothing but your flawed eyes and no way of substantiating your opinion.

Your lack of a rebuttal to that surgical destruction of your post is very telling.

Lol game 1 vs Blake
Lee had a higher offensive rating of 115 and def of 111 with a usage rate of only 13
Where as griffin had a lower offensive rating of 108 and def rating of 108 and a much higher usage at 24

Blake +/- +3
Lee +/- +5

Warriors won the game

Game 2

Lee had offensive rating of 140 and defense of 95 plus / minus of pos 24
Blake offensive rating of 69 and defensive of 110 plus/minus of neg 21

Warriors won game

Game 3
Lee had an offensive rating of 76 and defensive of 130 plus/ min of neg 24
Blake had and offensive rating of 130 and defensive 92 plus / min of pos 37

Clips won game

Game 4
Lee had and offensive rating 77 of and def rating 105 of and plus/ min of plus 14
Blake had an off rating of 114 and def rating of 105 and plus/ min of plus 14

Warriors won

So lee won the plus min battle and had great games even with bogut not playing beside him. His leadership is not comparable and the warriors won 3 out of 4 games. If there was a tie breaker the fact that he won more games in a head to head matters. Hope your surgical knife cuts deeper than that.

lol, please
05-02-2013, 12:00 AM
:faint:

ThaDubs
05-02-2013, 12:07 AM
I definitely think Blake is the most overrated player in the league. Clippers remind me so much of the 90's Sonics. There were a bunch of Kemp fans back then too, but Kemp was a poor rebounder (better than Griffin though) and played mediocre defense (Griffin is better defensively). Paul/Payton are really nothing alike from the PG position, but both were the sole reasons for their teams success IMO

Kemp was not a poor rebounder and was a superior defender with career averages of 2 steals and 2 blocks (rounded up of course). And certainly was not inferior to Griffin defensively. As for your Payton/Paul statement, I think both were very similar players. Terrific two-way players and passers.

ThaDubs
05-02-2013, 12:08 AM
Except Harden is already borderline top 5 while Curry is borderline top 10.

Harden is spectacular tonight

Quinnsanity
05-02-2013, 12:20 AM
Harden is the obvious winner, but I'd take Blake over Curry because of size. Seriously it's like half of the point guards in the league nowadays are considered elite.

b@llhog24
05-02-2013, 12:33 AM
Lol game 1 vs Blake
Lee had a higher offensive rating of 115 and def of 111 with a usage rate of only 13
Where as griffin had a lower offensive rating of 108 and def rating of 108 and a much higher usage at 24

Blake +/- +3
Lee +/- +5

Warriors won the game

Game 2

Lee had offensive rating of 140 and defense of 95 plus / minus of pos 24
Blake offensive rating of 69 and defensive of 110 plus/minus of neg 21

Warriors won game

Game 3
Lee had an offensive rating of 76 and defensive of 130 plus/ min of neg 24
Blake had and offensive rating of 130 and defensive 92 plus / min of pos 37

Clips won game

Game 4
Lee had and offensive rating 77 of and def rating 105 of and plus/ min of plus 14
Blake had an off rating of 114 and def rating of 105 and plus/ min of plus 14

Warriors won

So lee won the plus min battle and had great games even with bogut not playing beside him. His leadership is not comparable and the warriors won 3 out of 4 games. If there was a tie breaker the fact that he won more games in a head to head matters. Hope your surgical knife cuts deeper than that.

Soo not worth it.

mightybosstone
05-02-2013, 12:43 AM
The game fives of these two series proved that Curry is hardly unflappable in the playoffs and Harden is hardly a choke artist. I still think Harden was the better player, and he played phenomenal basketball tonight.

lol, please
05-02-2013, 12:44 AM
Worth it.

mrblisterdundee
05-02-2013, 01:28 AM
1. James Harden
2. Stephen Curry
3. Blake Griffin

And if Griffin starts using his athleticism like Ibaka, he'll pass up Curry in value.

NoahH
05-02-2013, 01:59 AM
Harden = Curry > Blake > Jrue Holiday = Ty Lawson > Brandon Jennings > Tyreke Evans = Jeff Teague > Darren Collison >>>>>>>>>>>>> Haseem Thabeet

ThaDubs
05-02-2013, 02:07 AM
Harden = Curry > Blake > Jrue Holiday = Ty Lawson > Brandon Jennings > Tyreke Evans = Jeff Teague > Darren Collison >>>>>>>>>>>>> Haseem Thabeet

Your sig is hilarious. I can't believe someone actually said that :facepalm:

Swashcuff
05-02-2013, 02:13 AM
Soo not worth it.

Yeah Chronz shouldn't waste his time with that crap but he will and he'll tear him to shreds. Sad thing is though someone as dense as he is is going to have a hard time understanding that he's been dealt.

lol, please
05-02-2013, 11:13 AM
Which is why it's worth it.

TheIlladelph16
05-02-2013, 03:43 PM
Lol game 1 vs Blake
Lee had a higher offensive rating of 115 and def of 111 with a usage rate of only 13
Where as griffin had a lower offensive rating of 108 and def rating of 108 and a much higher usage at 24

Blake +/- +3
Lee +/- +5

Warriors won the game

Game 2

Lee had offensive rating of 140 and defense of 95 plus / minus of pos 24
Blake offensive rating of 69 and defensive of 110 plus/minus of neg 21

Warriors won game

Game 3
Lee had an offensive rating of 76 and defensive of 130 plus/ min of neg 24
Blake had and offensive rating of 130 and defensive 92 plus / min of pos 37

Clips won game

Game 4
Lee had and offensive rating 77 of and def rating 105 of and plus/ min of plus 14
Blake had an off rating of 114 and def rating of 105 and plus/ min of plus 14

Warriors won

So lee won the plus min battle and had great games even with bogut not playing beside him. His leadership is not comparable and the warriors won 3 out of 4 games. If there was a tie breaker the fact that he won more games in a head to head matters. Hope your surgical knife cuts deeper than that.

I'm late to this conversation, but are you arguing that David Lee is better than Blake Griffin? Just typing the phrase "David Lee is better than Blake Griffin" made me want to :bang:

KingPosey
05-02-2013, 04:32 PM
I was responding to your statement. Proving Steph Curry is more efficient. Nothing is wrong with getting to the stripe, I'm just saying Harden averages more points on less shots because he gets to the FT line all the damn time.

No, that doesn't prove he is more efficient what so ever. It proves he is a better shooter but drawi g fouls and getting free throws absolutely has to do with efficiency. It's absurd to state otherwise.

lol, please
05-02-2013, 04:37 PM
I would put more weight on FTs and the relationship with efficiency if there was parity of officiating for sample sizes. To think Curry's been getting the same officiating treatment as other "star" players his career is equally absurd, if not more.

KingPosey
05-02-2013, 04:40 PM
Lol game 1 vs Blake
Lee had a higher offensive rating of 115 and def of 111 with a usage rate of only 13
Where as griffin had a lower offensive rating of 108 and def rating of 108 and a much higher usage at 24

Blake +/- +3
Lee +/- +5

Warriors won the game

Game 2

Lee had offensive rating of 140 and defense of 95 plus / minus of pos 24
Blake offensive rating of 69 and defensive of 110 plus/minus of neg 21

Warriors won game

Game 3
Lee had an offensive rating of 76 and defensive of 130 plus/ min of neg 24
Blake had and offensive rating of 130 and defensive 92 plus / min of pos 37

Clips won game

Game 4
Lee had and offensive rating 77 of and def rating 105 of and plus/ min of plus 14
Blake had an off rating of 114 and def rating of 105 and plus/ min of plus 14

Warriors won

So lee won the plus min battle and had great games even with bogut not playing beside him. His leadership is not comparable and the warriors won 3 out of 4 games. If there was a tie breaker the fact that he won more games in a head to head matters. Hope your surgical knife cuts deeper than that.

I can't tell if you understood this or not, but the higher your defensive rating is, the worse your defense was.

Chronz
05-02-2013, 05:33 PM
I definitely think Blake is the most overrated player in the league. Clippers remind me so much of the 90's Sonics. There were a bunch of Kemp fans back then too, but Kemp was a poor rebounder (better than Griffin though) and played mediocre defense (Griffin is better defensively). Paul/Payton are really nothing alike from the PG position, but both were the sole reasons for their teams success IMO.

Stephen Curry has been a beast this year. Followed by Harden. Then Blake. I might be a little hard on Harden because of his atrocious play last year in the finals. He choked hard. Lost confidence by game 3, and started passing up shots that he should of taken. Just straight wide open 3's. Stephen Curry could be a top 5 player in the league in 3 years. As long as he stays healthy.
Kemp was a tremendous defender and in no way is Blake better than that guy on defense

Chronz
05-02-2013, 05:47 PM
Lol this discussion has got really off track. Look Blake is not that good. Since 2010 most of his stats have fell pretty considerably. Lee has kept his average or increased since. I'm not going to pull number because you obviously can look them up. So with lee stats going up each year does that mean he has hit a plateau? If I were just looking at numbers on a paper( bc thats all that matters when choosing a player.....) then I would conclude that Blake is declining and lee is getting better. Honestly there is nothing that either of u guys can tell me that makes me believe that right now Blake is a better player sorry guys. Blake has special talent with no skill. Until he learns how to play basketball I'm not convinced.
Look, you dont know jack about stats (see how funny these proclamations are?). So tell me why I should trust your amateur insight, (considering how flawed your assessments was to start), over ACTUAL statisticians? You should really just stick to what you think your eyes are telling you.



Oh and I was trolling when I said he sucks..
Youre not very good at it, you just come off emotionally compromised.




He is a good player and wish him the best. I'm am done with this argument and would like to move on. Blake is the 3rd best player in the draft that year. Thanks for the moron call I really appreciated that stay classy! : ) my bad it was heediot that said that.
This argument was done the minute you were unable to refute the post you quietly ignored, which I would normally have no problem with, except you continued to speak irrationally on a player you very CLEARLY do not understand.

Good luck with your eyes, heres hoping you learn to supplement them with relevant data.

Chronz
05-02-2013, 05:55 PM
Except that the things stats dont measure only make Blames case stronger against a pathetic defender like Lee. Don't be mad cuz you have nothing but your flawed eyes and no way of substantiating your opinion.

Your lack of a rebuttal to that surgical destruction of your post is very telling.

Lol game 1 vs Blake
Lee had a higher offensive rating of 115 and def of 111 with a usage rate of only 13
Where as griffin had a lower offensive rating of 108 and def rating of 108 and a much higher usage at 24

Blake +/- +3
Lee +/- +5

Warriors won the game

Game 2

Lee had offensive rating of 140 and defense of 95 plus / minus of pos 24
Blake offensive rating of 69 and defensive of 110 plus/minus of neg 21

Warriors won game

Game 3
Lee had an offensive rating of 76 and defensive of 130 plus/ min of neg 24
Blake had and offensive rating of 130 and defensive 92 plus / min of pos 37

Clips won game

Game 4
Lee had and offensive rating 77 of and def rating 105 of and plus/ min of plus 14
Blake had an off rating of 114 and def rating of 105 and plus/ min of plus 14

Warriors won

So lee won the plus min battle and had great games even with bogut not playing beside him. His leadership is not comparable and the warriors won 3 out of 4 games. If there was a tie breaker the fact that he won more games in a head to head matters. Hope your surgical knife cuts deeper than that.
Lol, head to head matchups matter more than the other 78 games now?

Chronz
05-02-2013, 06:05 PM
Lol game 1 vs Blake
Lee had a higher offensive rating of 115 and def of 111 with a usage rate of only 13
Where as griffin had a lower offensive rating of 108 and def rating of 108 and a much higher usage at 24

Blake +/- +3
Lee +/- +5

Warriors won the game

Game 2

Lee had offensive rating of 140 and defense of 95 plus / minus of pos 24
Blake offensive rating of 69 and defensive of 110 plus/minus of neg 21

Warriors won game

Game 3
Lee had an offensive rating of 76 and defensive of 130 plus/ min of neg 24
Blake had and offensive rating of 130 and defensive 92 plus / min of pos 37

Clips won game

Game 4
Lee had and offensive rating 77 of and def rating 105 of and plus/ min of plus 14
Blake had an off rating of 114 and def rating of 105 and plus/ min of plus 14

Warriors won

So lee won the plus min battle and had great games even with bogut not playing beside him. His leadership is not comparable and the warriors won 3 out of 4 games. If there was a tie breaker the fact that he won more games in a head to head matters. Hope your surgical knife cuts deeper than that.

Soo not worth it.
You gotta admit
Raw +/- in a 4 game sample, regardless of how unstable it is, is a pretty good start for him

bgdreton
05-05-2013, 06:55 AM
Lol I'm done with this arguement it's boring to me now... And yes I understand he higher the def rating the worse thanks for the pointless input though

bgdreton
05-05-2013, 06:56 AM
I gave you what you wanted stats... But like I said I'm bored now thanks tho and yes those games matter bc it's head to head and we are comparing who is better. Yawn!