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View Full Version : thunder should have kept harden over westbrook



el hidalgo
04-28-2013, 06:47 PM
iv been saying this since the trade went down. harden fits better with durant. he has proven his dominance since he has been with the rockets and if they kept harden they wouldn't be in this whole debacle. they would still have a shot at winning the title. thoughts?

KnicksorBust
04-28-2013, 06:54 PM
I've said this 100x. I said it long before the trade. I said it after the trade. I still feel that way...

but it's complete BS to bring this up now while Westbrook is injured.

SportsFanatic10
04-28-2013, 06:55 PM
i still don't know, westbrook's defense is wayyy better then harden's so there's that...

ChitownBears22
04-28-2013, 06:56 PM
No they should have kept J Green over Perkins. That would have saved some cash and maybe a way to keep KD, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, And Green together.

SportsFanatic10
04-28-2013, 06:56 PM
iv been saying this since the trade went down. harden fits better with durant. he has proven his dominance since he has been with the rockets and if they kept harden they wouldn't be in this whole debacle. they would still have a shot at winning the title. thoughts?

good sig...those guys deserve to be exposed after posts like that.

ManRam
04-28-2013, 06:58 PM
i do think westbrook and durant are better compliments than harden and durant. defense also should be factored in here. it's close, but they're fine.

can you explain how harden/durant fit better than westy/durant?

they had the league's best offense this year. the gains, if they exist, by keeping harden over westbrook would be so minimal.

and not sure i get the timing of this thread.


sidenote: hidalgo, i think you should update your sig with this one. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?815825-May-be-a-pipe-dream-but-must-stay-in-the-back-of-our-minds&p=26008748#post26008748

Guppyfighter
04-28-2013, 07:02 PM
I think they should have kept Harden over Westbrook because Harden is better.

We already know Harden can play with Durant. Get a PG that plays with in the system and you get more shots for more efficient players, those players being Durant and Harden.

tp13baby
04-28-2013, 07:03 PM
Westbrook is absolutely unstoppable when he doesn't force. Not one point guard is a good enough defender to stop him 1 on 1. Id take Westy.

el hidalgo
04-28-2013, 07:07 PM
i do think westbrook and durant are better compliments than harden and durant. defense also should be factored in here. it's close, but they're fine.

can you explain how harden/durant fit better than westy/durant?

they had the league's best offense this year. the gains, if they exist, by keeping harden over westbrook would be so minimal.

and not sure i get the timing of this thread.


sidenote: hidalgo, i think you should update your sig with this one. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?815825-May-be-a-pipe-dream-but-must-stay-in-the-back-of-our-minds&p=26008748#post26008748

pathetic. its pretty hard to believe that people hate lebron enough to want him to suffer a painful injury.

ChiSox219
04-28-2013, 07:07 PM
i do think westbrook and durant are better compliments than harden and durant. defense also should be factored in here. it's close, but they're fine.

can you explain how harden/durant fit better than westy/durant?

they had the league's best offense this year. the gains, if they exist, by keeping harden over westbrook would be so minimal.

Not sure if serious

ManRam
04-28-2013, 07:09 PM
Not sure if serious

absolutely positively serious.


question for you: hypothetically, what is a better "fit"? rose/durant or harden/durant?

Lakers + Giants
04-28-2013, 07:10 PM
Didn't you make a bet that if lakers made the playoffs you would leave PSD?

ChiSox219
04-28-2013, 07:12 PM
absolutely positively serious.

Harden and Durant are hyper-efficient unselfish proven stars. Both have diversified games that allow them to attack with the ball or be lethal off the ball. Together as #1 and #2 options they would have challenged any offensive pairing to play the game. It's a shame we won't get to seem them together in their primes.

I wonder if Presti ever entertained shipping Westbrook to GS for Curry and pick, that was the move to make in hindsight.

ManRam
04-28-2013, 07:16 PM
Harden and Durant are hyper-efficient unselfish proven stars. Both have diversified games that allow them to attack with the ball or be lethal off the ball. Together as #1 and #2 options they would have challenged any offensive pairing to play the game. It's a shame we won't get to seem them together in their primes.

I wonder if Presti ever entertained shipping Westbrook to GS for Curry and pick, that was the move to make in hindsight.

i don't think it's bad (obviously it's not) having two players that are so incredibly similar on the same team, but i think westbrook's strengths, being so different than kd's (and vice versa), make them a tremendous tandem. the contrast in personality i think works wonders too.

harden is a more efficient scorer, but westbrook excels well beyond harden in many other important aspects of the game.

and while it could be a misleading stat, the thunder offense was actually better this year than last. i'm not suggesting it's because harden is gone (i'm not an idiot), i'm just using it to point out that the westy/durant duo is plenty potent.

Avenged
04-28-2013, 07:20 PM
Funny how everyone's been suddenly "saying this for a while"

Who's to say had they kept Harden he wouldn't have gotten injured himself?

ChitownBears22
04-28-2013, 07:21 PM
Funny how everyone's been suddenly "saying this for a while"

Who's to say had they kept Harden he wouldn't have gotten injured himself?

I said keep Harden. Trade perkins. Sign Ibaka, but not to that ******** contract.

THE GIPPER
04-28-2013, 07:40 PM
:horse:

king4day
04-28-2013, 07:42 PM
Put Westbrook in Hardens spot. 6th man SG, and he's a better fit.
I'd wanted to see Nash as OKC's PG with Westbrook as their SG.

ChiSox219
04-28-2013, 07:56 PM
question for you: hypothetically, what is a better "fit"? rose/durant or harden/durant?

I haven't thought about that like Russ/Harden but Rose is smarter and less selfish with the ball than Westbrook. My knee jerk reaction is to lean Harden as better fit.


i don't think it's bad (obviously it's not) having two players that are so incredibly similar on the same team, but i think westbrook's strengths, being so different than kd's (and vice versa), make them a tremendous tandem. the contrast in personality i think works wonders too.

Harden being left handed is a major contrast. I'm not sure I would really even consider KD and Harden that similar in the ways they score, I guess more similar than Russ but less similar than Lebron and Wade were when they joined.



harden is a more efficient scorer, but westbrook excels well beyond harden in many other important aspects of the game.

The most important aspects is where I see Harden having advantages; court vision, shot selection, spot up shooting, pick n roll play, and transition attack being among the most critical traits of successful offensive play.



and while it could be a misleading stat, the thunder offense was actually better this year than last. i'm not suggesting it's because harden is gone (i'm not an idiot), i'm just using it to point out that the westy/durant duo is plenty potent.

KD just had one of the greatest season in history and was one of the most improved players this year. Martin came in and did an ok imitation of the scoring part of Harden's role, KD and Russ made up the playmaking missed. Westbrook's metrics marginally improved. If you swapped Westbrook with an above average PG and kept Harden there's a chance the Thunder offense would have been even better.

mp3
04-28-2013, 08:02 PM
I forgot it was Westbrook who didn't show up in the Finals against the Heat. Westbrook gets no respect from people. He's better than Harden. Now i'll wait for someone to shove some advanced stat down my throat saying the Thunder would win the finals in 2 games if they had Harden instead...

Guppyfighter
04-28-2013, 08:04 PM
I forgot it was Westbrook who didn't show up in the Finals against the Heat. Westbrook gets no respect from people. He's better than Harden. Now i'll wait for someone to shove some advanced stat down my throat saying the Thunder would win the finals in 2 games if they had Harden instead...

Harden regressed because he played way over his abilities vs the Spurs.

Still, Westbrook made a lot of bad choices and meh decisions in the finals.

CubsBullsBucs
04-28-2013, 08:10 PM
they should have traded westbrook for rondo and then traded green for a better big
Rondo-Harden-Durant-Ibaka = :drool:

Guppyfighter
04-28-2013, 08:14 PM
They should have traded Westbrook for Chris Paul when the deal was on the table.

LJEATON26
04-28-2013, 08:21 PM
The Thunder improve in wins/losses and statistically over last season without Harden, Plus, Westbrook has an All NBA caliber season and he still isn't getting any love.

Guppyfighter
04-28-2013, 08:23 PM
The Thunder improve in wins/losses and statistically over last season without Harden, Plus, Westbrook has an All NBA caliber season and he still isn't getting any love.

That's because Ibaka and Durant have gotten better. Not because they don't have Harden, if that's what you are implying.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-28-2013, 08:26 PM
They should have amnestied Perkins, that's what they should have done.


they should have traded westbrook for rondo and then traded green for a better big
Rondo-Harden-Durant-Ibaka = :drool:

That would've been fine with me.

Necrosis
04-28-2013, 08:47 PM
Westbrook is roughly the same on offense, much better defensively, better rebounder, better passer and playmaker. It was ibaka or harden, they made the right choice as he provides elite post/interior defense and can score, Harden is redundant and the only one who doesn't need the ball to be effective is Durant (on offense).

Chronz
04-28-2013, 09:00 PM
Fun fact, in 2012 Durant actually scored more with more efficiency when he had Harden next to him vs Westbrook who helped his efficiency while suppressing his scoring.

The team also scored more effectively with Harden.

smith&wesson
04-28-2013, 09:02 PM
if okc didnt sign perkens they would have been able to keep westy, harden durant & ibaka. but they effed that up pretty good...

first they let go of green which was a pertty big mistake itself, and then harden which was a huge mistake. They should never, ever have gone after perkins.

Asik's better
04-28-2013, 09:04 PM
Another way to look at this is if you reverse the roles, would houston be as good with Westbrook rather than harden.

smith&wesson
04-28-2013, 09:05 PM
Fun fact, in 2012 Durant actually scored more with more efficiency when he had Harden next to him vs Westbrook who helped his efficiency while suppressing his scoring.

The team also scored more effectively with Harden.

durant & harden should have been priorities 1 & 2, then westy, then ibaka.

b@llhog24
04-28-2013, 09:06 PM
i do think westbrook and durant are better compliments than harden and durant. defense also should be factored in here. it's close, but they're fine.

can you explain how harden/durant fit better than westy/durant?

they had the league's best offense this year. the gains, if they exist, by keeping harden over westbrook would be so minimal.

and not sure i get the timing of this thread.


sidenote: hidalgo, i think you should update your sig with this one. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?815825-May-be-a-pipe-dream-but-must-stay-in-the-back-of-our-minds&p=26008748#post26008748

The worst forum bar none as far as Nba teams go.


Harden and Durant are hyper-efficient unselfish proven stars. Both have diversified games that allow them to attack with the ball or be lethal off the ball. Together as #1 and #2 options they would have challenged any offensive pairing to play the game. It's a shame we won't get to seem them together in their primes.

I wonder if Presti ever entertained shipping Westbrook to GS for Curry and pick, that was the move to make in hindsight.

Omg. :drool:

smith&wesson
04-28-2013, 09:07 PM
Another way to look at this is if you reverse the roles, would houston be as good with Westbrook rather than harden.

I think westy would have exploded in houston as well. maybe not as much as harden but to a similar effect.

Chronz
04-28-2013, 09:13 PM
Westbrook would be leading the league in attempts and prolly averaging 30 in Houston

3RDASYSTEM
04-28-2013, 09:22 PM
I'd take RUSS over HARDEN allday everyday

eye test rules the world of sports

who got traded again? they could have easily traded all 3 and they traded the harder player to trade out of the 3 and got good value back

they could have easily shipped out RUSS or KD at blink of an eye, but you always keep/start the franchise backcourt/frontcourt combo or single player, its common sports sense

last I checked OKC gm is cut from that SPURS cloth so im sure he made the right business and bball decision

KD can easily make up for HARDEN with KMART in the fold, as seen the other night in HTOWN(RUSS out also)

3RDASYSTEM
04-28-2013, 09:26 PM
I think westy would have exploded in houston as well. maybe not as much as harden but to a similar effect.

Easily as much as HARDEN had he been traded to HTOWN

just go back last yr and prior and look how RUSS fared without KD, he exploded for 35pts or more pretty much everytime

his usage went up so its just natural his scoring go up,but efficiency will take a hit

3RDASYSTEM
04-28-2013, 09:30 PM
Westbrook would be leading the league in attempts and prolly averaging 30 in Houston

Basically exact thing I just preached, right on point with it CHRONZ

He plays with a AI type energy so he would most def. be injured more often than not, this was just a small sample of how taxing it would be, just like at IVERSON and the load he carried and the beating he took playing 42minutes per game for 10yrs in PHI, no player will ever do that again, see BRON after CLE stint or CP3 in NO

Players will go that route from now on, no more KG/AI type loyalty

el hidalgo
04-28-2013, 09:34 PM
The worst forum bar none as far as Nba teams go.



Omg. :drool:
seconded. im embarrassed to be a laker fan when i go in that place. i pretty much avoid it at all costs.

JasonJohnHorn
04-28-2013, 10:10 PM
I think a lot of people were saying that when it happened. I think the general consensus was that a pass-first PG would be much better for Harden and Durant and such a PG would have certainly been available, with draft picks likely to be thrown in the deal. That said, they got a good deal for Harden. Obviously they didn't get back in return what they gave, but that draft pick they got could prove valuable and if they keep Martin, he's a great shooter to have coming off the bench.

I'm curious would it would have been like if the Thunder had signed Harden and then shipped Westbrook to Boston for Rondo... with the injury it wouldn't have worked out too well this year, but I think Rondo/Durant/Harden would work really well together.

Swashcuff
04-28-2013, 10:21 PM
That's because Ibaka and Durant have gotten better. Not because they don't have Harden, if that's what you are implying.

And you think KD and Ibaka have gotten better on their own. It has much to do with the play of Westbrook (who was assisting Ibaka on more than half his jump shots earlier in the season) on that end of the floor helping them out. Ibaka really hasn't grown defensively but has gotten automatic on his jumper this season. A major reason for that is because of the high degree of attention Westbrook garnered thus gifting Ibaka with more open shots.

No one is implying that they got better because they don't have Harden that is clearly evident. He is simply stating fact. They got better offensively despite not having Harden on board.

Swashcuff
04-28-2013, 10:30 PM
Fun fact, in 2012 Durant actually scored more with more efficiency when he had Harden next to him vs Westbrook who helped his efficiency while suppressing his scoring.

The team also scored more effectively with Harden.

Do tell us what happened to Harden's efficiency and scoring when he played with KD. As Well as KD's scoring and efficiency when he played with Westbrook in the post season.

Another fun fact. The Thunder were more efficient offensively last post season when Westy was on the floor as opposed to when KD was on. There was also a bigger differential when Westy went off the floor as opposed to when KD went off the floor. By the token you're trying to push here then we can reasonable argue that Westy has more offensive value to the Thunder than KD did last season.

NYKnicks4511
04-28-2013, 10:31 PM
Westbrook is the LeBron of point guards. He just gets to the basket so easily that it would be asinine to trade him when he helped you get to the finals more than Harden's efforts the previous year did. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but bringing this topic up now is total horsecrap.

Munkeysuit
04-28-2013, 10:32 PM
All I got to say is that Harden will end up the winner in all of this, Russ plays too reckless, he'll end up consistently hurt after this injury

ChiSox219
04-28-2013, 11:52 PM
Do tell us what happened to Harden's efficiency and scoring when he played with KD. As Well as KD's scoring and efficiency when he played with Westbrook in the post season.

Another fun fact. The Thunder were more efficient offensively last post season when Westy was on the floor as opposed to when KD was on. There was also a bigger differential when Westy went off the floor as opposed to when KD went off the floor. By the token you're trying to push here then we can reasonable argue that Westy has more offensive value to the Thunder than KD did last season.

Westbrook played 28 minutes spread over 13 games without KD in the playoffs. Using on/off data with that small of a sample is worthless.

Chronz
04-29-2013, 12:13 AM
Do tell us what happened to Harden's efficiency and scoring when he played with KD.
Harden scored more with Durant than he did with Westbrook. Durant did the same. The recurring theme is that Westbrook steals more touches from both of them than they do from each other given their roles.

Harden wouldn't be relegated to third option if Westbrook wasn't around. And if you look at Durants play with either WB or Harden, you see a stronger relationship between the latter.

Thats my point.


As Well as KD's scoring and efficiency when he played with Westbrook in the post season.
LOL so you want me to ignore the vast majority of the sample set, for the sake of 98 minutes? May I ask why?


Another fun fact. The Thunder were more efficient offensively last post season when Westy was on the floor as opposed to when KD was on.
I dont see whats fun about 28 minutes of play. More interested in the much more relevant overall sample set.


There was also a bigger differential when Westy went off the floor as opposed to when KD went off the floor. By the token you're trying to push here then we can reasonable argue that Westy has more offensive value to the Thunder than KD did last season.
I dont think thats the same token.

Chronz
04-29-2013, 12:13 AM
durant & harden should have been priorities 1 & 2, then westy, then ibaka.
Someone on ESPN wondered why teams always feel the need to keep incumbent players.

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-29-2013, 12:21 AM
iv been saying this since the trade went down. harden fits better with durant. he has proven his dominance since he has been with the rockets and if they kept harden they wouldn't be in this whole debacle. they would still have a shot at winning the title. thoughts?

:laugh: DNEWGUY :laugh:

Bruno
04-29-2013, 01:27 AM
harden. they also could have gotten more for westbrook on the market than they got for james harden.

Swashcuff
04-29-2013, 10:45 AM
Westbrook played 28 minutes spread over 13 games without KD in the playoffs. Using on/off data with that small of a sample is worthless.

Is it fact or fiction?

Swashcuff
04-29-2013, 11:20 AM
Harden scored more with Durant than he did with Westbrook. Durant did the same. The recurring theme is that Westbrook steals more touches from both of them than they do from each other given their roles.

Harden wouldn't be relegated to third option if Westbrook wasn't around. And if you look at Durants play with either WB or Harden, you see a stronger relationship between the latter.

Thats my point.

Don't understand how that is now your stance when earlier you attempted to make it seem as though Westbrook is the only one who negatively affects another player's averages/percentages and in some way negatively affects his team's offense. When you have 3 players of such high usg its obvious that there aren't going to be enough touches to maximize on everyone's volume scoring ability.


LOL so you want me to ignore the vast majority of the sample set, for the sake of 98 minutes? May I ask why?

Never said I want you to ignore anything. I want you to see that it is indeed telling that when Westbrook went to the bench last post season Kevin Durant played significantly worse than he did when he was on the floor. Take it with a grain of salt but these are the facts and small sample size or not that's not going to change. KD would be the first to admit that.


I dont see whats fun about 28 minutes of play. More interested in the much more relevant overall sample set.

You were sharing facts. I did the same.



I dont think thats the same token.

Actually it can be seen as just that. You're attempting to make a case that because of the on/off #s Harden was more valuable to the team's offense than Westbrook. You may be right in saying that. In some aspects the same can be said for Westbrook over Durant.

Also lets be real here, Harden played a greater % of his minutes alongside KD AND Westbrook than they both played alongside Harden these numbers we are quoting aren't adjusted so its no coincidence that his team would be playing this way when he and two other all stars are on the floor for the majority of the time he's there.

FYL_McVeezy
04-29-2013, 11:43 AM
It's horrible timing for this thread, but i've long thought they would be better off with Harden instead of Westchuck....

Westbrook plays like he wants to be a superstar so bad, they should have sent him to houston to get his wish instead of Harden...