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sunsfan88
04-18-2013, 11:04 PM
The Oklahoma City Thunder spoke to the Toronto Raptors about a trade centered on James Harden for Jonas Valanciunas.

The Raptors 'quickly rebuffed' the interest from Sam Presti in the trade.

The Thunder eventually traded Harden to the Rockets while also acquiring the Raptors' lottery guaranteed pick.

Valanciunas averaged 8.9 points and 6.0 rebounds in 23.9 minutes per game during his rookie season.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9186204/nba-trade-value-column-part-1


Lol gotta love Bryan Colangelo :rolleyes:

beasted86
04-18-2013, 11:08 PM
How does that clown still have a job?

I don't know whether the story is legit, but it sounds like something he would do anyway.

beasted86
04-18-2013, 11:08 PM
How does that clown still have a job?

I don't know whether the story is legit, but it sounds like something he would do anyway.

dhopisthename
04-18-2013, 11:10 PM
to bad either the thunder were not interested in kanter or the jazz turned them down

Slug3
04-18-2013, 11:11 PM
I wonder if they didnt want to pay him or something.

ldawg
04-18-2013, 11:13 PM
Perfect example when teams take the word potential to far.

Tmath
04-18-2013, 11:25 PM
Valanciunas is a very good prospect, Harden is a great player, but I'm not mad for keeping JV. Good C prospects are hard to find and we will have him on the rookie scale contract for the next 4 years, and we have DeRozan who is only 23 and still improving.

Giannis94
04-18-2013, 11:25 PM
I wonder if they didnt want to pay him or something.

Yet they will continue to pay Rudy Gay a big portion of the money they could have maxed Harden and now are stuck paying roughly 1/2 his cap this season (well say 8 mill) and 37 over the next 2 years. You get Gay for 1/2 as long as had you signed Harden by trading the Euro, while Hardens production is 10x better than Rudy's. Take your pick.

heyman321
04-18-2013, 11:28 PM
Valanciunas is averaging 15/10 next year, I wouldn't have traded for him either. We already have two wings that chuck, albeit not as good as getting to the FT line.

Swashcuff
04-18-2013, 11:31 PM
Valanciunas is averaging 15/10 next year, I wouldn't have traded for him either. We already have two wings that chuck, albeit not as good as getting to the FT line.

:laugh2:

Well looki here the disease is spreading from management to the fans.

John Walls Era
04-18-2013, 11:31 PM
Why would Raptors pay Harden a max and then also have Derozan whos getting 10M. Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar. Obviously in hindsight, this is an easy deal.

Its easy to be a GM in hindsight right?...........

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:31 PM
I would've done the deal. But I don't blame the guy for not trading a top prospect.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:32 PM
Valanciunas is averaging 15/10 next year, I wouldn't have traded for him either. We already have two wings that chuck, albeit not as good as getting to the FT line.

Lol. Bold statement that has no backbone.

mvb815
04-18-2013, 11:32 PM
^because the raptors could just trade derozan for a decent big to replace jonas

reading this topic makes me want to cut myself

heyman321
04-18-2013, 11:32 PM
:laugh2:

Well looki here the disease is spreading from management to the fans.

:laugh: @ you. Valanciunas is averaging like 15/8 when he actually plays meaningful minutes. It's the coach that needs to get canned. Harden is good but centers are tougher gems to find

mvb815
04-18-2013, 11:34 PM
perfect case scenario imo, do this trade and draft drummond

Swashcuff
04-18-2013, 11:34 PM
Why would Raptors pay Harden a max and then also have Derozan whos getting 10M. Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar. Obviously in hindsight, this is an easy deal.

Its easy to be a GM in hindsight right?...........

Harden hasn't become a superstar but damn near every knowledgeable fan was expecting him to at worst become prime Joe Johnsonesque. It was common knowledge that Harden would be super productive in a starting/centrepiece capacity.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:35 PM
perfect case scenario imo, do this trade and draft drummond

This trade offer was after the draft.

mvb815
04-18-2013, 11:36 PM
This trade offer was after the draft.

i'm aware, but it could have been discussed

Swashcuff
04-18-2013, 11:37 PM
:laugh: @ you. Valanciunas is averaging like 15/8 when he actually plays meaningful minutes. It's the coach that needs to get canned. Harden is good but centers are tougher gems to find

My beef with your statement is that he IS averaging 15 and 10 next year as if its fact. Dude lets just wait for him to develop before acting as if it already happen. In the games in which he played 30+ minutes this season he averaged 13 and 8 and per36 he averaged 13 and 9 quite honestly as decent as that may be that isn't even top 20 C #s in a weak C league. Harden will be the best SG in the game in a couple years and automatically makes any offense loads better. I know you got your bias because JC is your dude and you understand your GMs POV but trading for Harden is a no brainer even with DeRozan on board.

Bravo95
04-18-2013, 11:38 PM
Well, a lot of other idiots thought Harden was overrated/bust after what happened in the Finals. So JC is not alone.

Gators123
04-18-2013, 11:38 PM
Valanciunas is averaging 15/10 next year, I wouldn't have traded for him either. We already have two wings that chuck, albeit not as good as getting to the FT line.

:laugh2: wow

WARRIORS@GR
04-18-2013, 11:39 PM
:laugh: @ you. Valanciunas is averaging like 15/8 when he actually plays meaningful minutes. It's the coach that needs to get canned. Harden is good but centers are tougher gems to findTougher than what?top 5-6 players?

SportsFanatic10
04-18-2013, 11:39 PM
lol wow

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:40 PM
i'm aware, but it could have been discussed

Most didn't even know Harden was on the table until the week we was traded.

king4day
04-18-2013, 11:44 PM
There had to be more to this trade proposal. No way Toronto doesn't trade for a surefire star. Unless he refused to discuss extension with them.

tapajafri
04-18-2013, 11:44 PM
In the long run, this wont be a bad trade rejection by Toronto.

Valanciunas can play. This kid has a ton of upside. He's a project, so it's going to take him a few years. He will be a star though and we saw glimpses of it late this season. They have other wing players like Derozan, Ross, and eventually made a trade for Rudy Gay. While they're not as good as Harden, they're not paying any of these guys what Harden is getting paid, PLUS Valanciunas is going to be a very good big man, which are hard to find these days.

So yes, people will laugh at the trade now, but we've seen too many times that trades shouldn't be evaluated until 2 or more years down the road.

John Walls Era
04-18-2013, 11:45 PM
Harden hasn't become a superstar but damn near every knowledgeable fan was expecting him to at worst become prime Joe Johnsonesque. It was common knowledge that Harden would be super productive in a starting/centrepiece capacity.

THey already signed Derozan to 10M.

Swashcuff
04-18-2013, 11:49 PM
THey already signed Derozan to 10M.

So what? We signed Jrue to 11 mil but if we had a shot at trading for Paul for Evan, Thad and future picks (a pipe dream) and he agrees that he'd sign an extension we'd absolutely do it. DeRozan has played more than a quarter of his minutes for his career at the SF he'd benefit from playing alongside a player the calibre of Harden.

spreadeagle
04-18-2013, 11:51 PM
well JV is playing well BUT had they done that deal and taken Drummond over Ross

Lowry
Harden
Gay
Amir Johnson
Drummond...with Bargs n Derozen off the bench, Dear Lord thats a nice lineup

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:51 PM
There had to be more to this trade proposal. No way Toronto doesn't trade for a surefire star. Unless he refused to discuss extension with them.

Thunder were probably looking at Derozan as well since they would've needed a replacement SG.

But even then, I would probably take Harden for JV and Derozan.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:53 PM
Wizards also turned down a Beal for Harden type deal. Klay Thompson for Harden was also presented but didn't happen.

I mean this isn't the first time a team rejected trading their young player for an established one.

GodsSon
04-18-2013, 11:54 PM
Valanciunas is going to be a stud and has top 3 centre potential; plus he's just starting his rookie deal.

It's better they didn't make the move.

heyman321
04-18-2013, 11:54 PM
well JV is playing well BUT had they done that deal and taken Drummond over Ross

Lowry
Harden
Gay
Amir Johnson
Drummond...with Bargs n Derozen off the bench, Dear Lord thats a nice lineup

How are you getting this lineup? It wouldn't be for Val straight up, it would be at least 2 prospects, a good player, and a pick for Harden, so Raptors certianly wouldn't have Gay.

Swashcuff
04-18-2013, 11:57 PM
THey already signed Derozan to 10M.

Wait WTF am I arguing? Wasn't DeRozan's extension signed after the season already began? Wasn't the Harden trade made before the season began. This is a null point. Try again.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-18-2013, 11:59 PM
How are you getting this lineup? It wouldn't be for Val straight up, it would be at least 2 prospects, a good player, and a pick for Harden, so Raptors certianly wouldn't have Gay.

The proposed Harden-Beal deal only involved like 2 players (Beal and a throw in) going back to the Thunder. The proposal the Thunder had to the Warriors was Klay Thompson and a pick.

How are you getting 3 players and a prospect for the Raptors while other similar trades don't even have that much assets involved?

bucketss
04-19-2013, 12:04 AM
im not mad at all.

JasonJohnHorn
04-19-2013, 12:06 AM
FAWK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FML is this is true... Cangelo needs to go asap!

topdog
04-19-2013, 12:19 AM
I get that people have been clamoring for Harden to "be the man" and that he hasn't disappointed in that role, but there is a reason that teams like Washington and Toronto turned down these deals (and why Presti extended the offers for that matter).

Toronto has both Derozan and Ross to groom as respectable or better shooting guards. A highly raved about center prospect on a rookie contract for a re-building team probably makes sense to keep over making all sorts of moves to accomodate bringing in Harden. As for Washington, the less ball-dominant Beal who may or may not be the next Eric Gordon (but healthy) makes more sense next to Wall than Harden who would likely make the former #1 pick less effective.

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 12:30 AM
I get that people have been clamoring for Harden to "be the man" and that he hasn't disappointed in that role, but there is a reason that teams like Washington and Toronto turned down these deals (and why Presti extended the offers for that matter).

Toronto has both Derozan and Ross to groom as respectable or better shooting guards. A highly raved about center prospect on a rookie contract for a re-building team probably makes sense to keep over making all sorts of moves to accomodate bringing in Harden. As for Washington, the less ball-dominant Beal who may or may not be the next Eric Gordon (but healthy) makes more sense next to Wall than Harden who would likely make the former #1 pick less effective.

I get where you're coming from as I'm high on Beal as well, but Harden would have minimal problems fitting in with anyone.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:36 AM
Last regular season Westbrook averaged 5 more points per 36 white shooting 5% better playing alongside Harden than he did with Harden on the bench. Harden wouldn't hold Wall back. Not sure that Beal's potential next to Wall makes more sense than Harden's certainty. Harden makes both the Raptors and Wizards playoff teams this season and give them both better futures than they currently have.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 12:38 AM
Last regular season Westbrook averaged 5 more points per 36 white shooting 5% better playing alongside Harden than he did with Harden on the bench. Harden wouldn't hold Wall back. Not sure that Beal's potential next to Wall makes more sense than Harden's certainty. Harden makes both the Raptors and Wizards playoff teams this season and give them both better futures than they currently have.

Guess both teams believe that their prospects have superstar potential.

LongWayFromHome
04-19-2013, 12:56 AM
Why would Raptors pay Harden a max and then also have Derozan whos getting 10M. Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar. Obviously in hindsight, this is an easy deal.

Its easy to be a GM in hindsight right?...........

Actually many people on this site and one of the leagues best GMs all expected Harden to become this superstar. If you watched him play in OKC (and understand the game) and/or looked at his numbers it was pretty clear.

LongWayFromHome
04-19-2013, 01:02 AM
Wizards also turned down a Beal for Harden type deal. Klay Thompson for Harden was also presented but didn't happen.

I mean this isn't the first time a team rejected trading their young player for an established one.

you do know Harden is only 23 right?

Shlumpledink
04-19-2013, 01:15 AM
Good thing they didn't do it.

jakedajewler
04-19-2013, 01:18 AM
you do know Harden is only 23 right?

I love that you have one of my quotes

KingPosey
04-19-2013, 01:53 AM
Why would Raptors pay Harden a max and then also have Derozan whos getting 10M. Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar. Obviously in hindsight, this is an easy deal.

Its easy to be a GM in hindsight right?...........i had A LOT of people really high on Harden...

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 02:07 AM
you do know Harden is only 23 right?

Yes. And? This isn't the first time teams refuse to trade away high class prospects for star players.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 02:08 AM
well JV is playing well BUT had they done that deal and taken Drummond over Ross

Lowry
Harden
Gay
Amir Johnson
Drummond...with Bargs n Derozen off the bench, Dear Lord thats a nice lineup

I might be the only Raptor fan that is glad we didn't pick Drummond.

Drummond has great physical tools, but the kid is not a very good basketball player. Aside from dunks and rebounds, his game is ugly as hell.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 02:10 AM
I might be the only Raptor fan that is glad we didn't pick Drummond.

Drummond has great physical tools, but the kid is not a very good basketball player. Aside from dunks and rebounds, his game is ugly as hell.

Who cares if his game isn't appealing if it's effective.

Ebbs
04-19-2013, 02:18 AM
It's not awful he had potential and they feel they're set with DeRoz

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 02:25 AM
It's not awful he had potential and they feel they're set with DeRoz

This. The guy definitely has star potential down the road so it's not a joke of a rejection like what some make it out to be.

I would've taken the deal but rejecting the deal isn't that laughable by any means.

Phenomenonsense
04-19-2013, 02:34 AM
I might be the only Raptor fan that is glad we didn't pick Drummond.

Drummond has great physical tools, but the kid is not a very good basketball player. Aside from dunks and rebounds, his game is ugly as hell.

Drummond is smooth and his game is sexy. You're crazy, or more likely, you haven't watched him play very often.

SeoulBeatz
04-19-2013, 02:38 AM
Hmmm, another questionable B.C move.
I was shocked when he took Ross over Drummond but obviously the pick hasn't turned out so bad. But could you imagine a team of...

Lowry
Harden
Gay
Bagnani (throw in any pf really)
Drummond

that's a nice looking squad right there.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 02:49 AM
Hmmm, another questionable B.C move.
I was shocked when he took Ross over Drummond but obviously the pick hasn't turned out so bad. But could you imagine a team of...

Lowry
Harden
Gay
Bagnani (throw in any pf really)
Drummond

that's a nice looking squad right there.

Well the trade proposal was probably after the draft. We would've had Ross by then.

Hellcrooner
04-19-2013, 03:15 AM
Lol gotta love Bryan Colangelo :rolleyes:

Well, too soon to know if he has done good or not, Valanciunas could explode into a star.

Wheres you sig btw? :D

dalton749
04-19-2013, 03:32 AM
i thought everyone saw harden becoming a star. u would of had to be blind to not see it coming

ThaDubs
04-19-2013, 03:44 AM
A big man with talent like Valanciunas doesn't come around a lot. Harden is just a cocky guy with a lot of hair who travels a lot and buys the refs' dinners.

ThaDubs
04-19-2013, 03:46 AM
Wheres you sig btw? :D

lmfao

Mcdoh
04-19-2013, 04:11 AM
Lol gotta love Bryan Colangelo :rolleyes:

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp122/mcdoh21/weget.jpg (http://s404.photobucket.com/user/mcdoh21/media/weget.jpg.html):D

LongWayFromHome
04-19-2013, 04:13 AM
Yes. And? This isn't the first time teams refuse to trade away high class prospects for star players.

Different from what you said at first


I mean this isn't the first time a team rejected trading their young player for an established one.

This makes it seem like its because the player is significantly younger and has his whole prime versus somebody who is half way through their prime... like if HOU rejected MIA offering Wade for Harden. That rejection would be because Harden is young. I don't think the Raptors turned down the trade because JV was young compared to Harden, there was obviously more to it than that.

murphturph
04-19-2013, 04:27 AM
A big man with talent like Valanciunas doesn't come around a lot. Harden is just a cocky guy with a lot of hair who travels a lot and buys the refs' dinners.

lmao!

John Walls Era
04-19-2013, 04:35 AM
Someone read the footnote... Chris Broussard

GiantsSwaGG
04-19-2013, 07:14 AM
This might be the dumbest move in sports history

waveycrockett
04-19-2013, 07:40 AM
It's funny cause Raptor fans were talking about Valancius like he was the 2nd coming of Tim Duncan or something this summer and now they're mad they didn't trade him then?????? LMAOOOO

Quinnsanity
04-19-2013, 07:42 AM
To be fair, Washington turned down Beal and Golden State turned down Klay Thompson, I don't think anybody really knew what OKC had in Harden. The big loser in all of this to me is Orlando. You're telling me they couldn't have dangled Dwight in a three or four teamer that netted them Harden? I say they could've.

BALLER R
04-19-2013, 07:49 AM
Why is everyone getting worked up. The trade would of involved more than just Jonas. I would want Harden but I would want Jonas as well. Look how long the raptors have needed a center they finally get him and trade him? I would of done the trade for anyone else except him. Also if you guys wanna really say it was stupid wait 5 years. Then for sure you will know. Harden is polished Jonas is a rookie. Not saying its gonna happen but what if he became the best center in the league. Then you guys will be saying oh it was smart move not to trade him.

thunderforce
04-19-2013, 07:54 AM
I wouldn't trade JV for anyone , he is already the best center the raps have ever had and he is only 20 years old . The best part is that he is from overseas so he unlike most Americans will resign in TO . Next year after he gains more muscle he is going to be very hard to stop and if you foul him he will kill you at the free throw line which for some one his size is almost unheard of .

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 08:09 AM
I wouldn't trade JV for anyone , he is already the best center the raps have ever had and he is only 20 years old . The best part is that he is from overseas so he unlike most Americans will resign in TO . Next year after he gains more muscle he is going to be very hard to stop and if you foul him he will kill you at the free throw line which for some one his size is almost unheard of .

So the Heat offers LeBron for JV do you do that trade?

JiffyMix88
04-19-2013, 08:10 AM
Someone read the footnote... Chris Broussard

lmao he doesn't have any sources that has got to be the reason why he does the coach interviews now. I mean when was the last time he broke some news about a player going somewhere that was correct? I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

dayman
04-19-2013, 08:12 AM
So the Heat offers LeBron for JV do you do that trade?

Who's LeBron?

dayman
04-19-2013, 08:18 AM
I dunno. This is a hard one.

If it was JV straight up for Harden, then yes you make the deal as long as you are certain Harden is locked up for a very long time. Thing is, I don't believe it was a straight 1 for 1 swap. Thunder most likely would have wanted other pieces (ie. Derozen, Ross, picks).

I also don't understand all these probable lineups people are throwing out there where the Raps have Harden and Gay on the same team. I am almost positive that if a trade was made which involved JV for Harden, Colangelo would not have made the move of trading Calderon and Ed Davis to Memphis for Rudy. Calderon would have been part of another trade due to his expiring and would not have netted nearly as much in return.

Line up would have been

Lowry
Harden
Derozan
Davis
Bargnani

BKLYNpigeon
04-19-2013, 08:27 AM
for what Toronto is doing, I would have turned it down as well. theyre going to be good in 2 years.

waveycrockett
04-19-2013, 08:37 AM
for what Toronto is doing, I would have turned it down as well. theyre going to be good in 2 years.

I doubt it. Their front court is garbage and they have 2 overrated players in Gay and Lowry.

thunderforce
04-19-2013, 08:55 AM
If the Heat offered LeBron for JV I would turn it down . Because I would rather have JV for 10 plus years than have LeBron for one or two since we all know he would not stay in Toronto long .

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 09:00 AM
I like how people are just assuming:

A. That Harden agreed to sign long term with the raps
B. That JV was the only player offered in the deal

Jonas has all star potential and I believe will be a top 3 prospect in this league... People are judging this before anything has panned out. Jonas is not a bust and has barely scratched his potential and he's already averaging 13pts and 8 rebounds when given minutes and he's a Rookie

Per 36 Minutes he averages --> 9Reb, 13.5pts and 2blks
Dwight Howard in his rookie year averaged --> 11Reb, 13.2pts and 2blks

That's just to show people who are saying this was the worst move in sports history that the have absolutely no clue about basketball. He came close to D12 stats with a skinny body and being an extremly unselfish player. I'm not saying he's a Dwight Howard because he's a completely different player but as far as this being a stupid move to keep a top prospect on your team on a rookie contract I strongly disagree.

Dude is a workhorse, has no ego, is a team player...

I'm glad we kept the kid and I can't wait to see the future unfold for this kid!

bucketss
04-19-2013, 09:01 AM
I doubt it. Their front court is garbage and they have 2 overrated players in Gay and Lowry.

lowry overrated?!?

koreancabbage
04-19-2013, 09:10 AM
I doubt it. Their front court is garbage and they have 2 overrated players in Gay and Lowry.

I'm glad you know all about overrated. that whole squad in Brooklyn is pretty much overrated - so thanks for pointing it out.

i know the Raps aren't in the playoffs but we know Brooklyn is out in the first round.

I don't think anyone on the Raps are overrated, just overpaid.

nycericanguy
04-19-2013, 09:16 AM
BC has to be the worst GM in the league.

Going back only one year, he gave Fields almost $7m per in a DESPERATE attempt to FORCE Nash to come to TOR, even though Nash clearly didn't want to and TOR was already offering $12m+ when other teams were offering around $8m.

He's been trying to replace Calderon for like a decade it seems, yet Calderon is better than every PG he brings in. I mean what's the beef with Jose? At this stage of his career he's probably better, or at least more reliable than Nash, who BC was willing to pay $36m for AND pay Fields $20m for... Think about that. BC was willing to pay $56m for 3 years of Nash...all the while he had the same player who was younger on the roster already.

Instead he gives up a top 5 pick for Lowry, and then trade away Calderon (AND a 23 year old big Davis) who was playing MUCH better than Lowry, for one of the worst contract in the NBA in Gay who's PER says he's an average player. Gay gets SUPERSTAR money and he's not even an all star, let alone a superstar! And again, the crazy thing is they already had someone better or equivalent and younger on the roster in Derozan making much less than Gay.

and now this Jonas thing... look Jonas is a very good prospect, and I think he'll be a good center. But TOR fans and apparently BC are overrating the heck outta him. He hasn't shown he's going to be a franchise type player or even an all star C. 8 & 6 aren't staggering numbers for a rookie center.

BALLER R
04-19-2013, 09:25 AM
BC has to be the worst GM in the league.

Going back only one year, he gave Fields almost $7m per in a DESPERATE attempt to FORCE Nash to come to TOR, even though Nash clearly didn't want to and TOR was already offering $12m+ when other teams were offering around $8m.

He's been trying to replace Calderon for like a decade it seems, yet Calderon is better than every PG he brings in. I mean what's the beef with Jose? At this stage of his career he's probably better, or at least more reliable than Nash, who BC was willing to pay $36m for AND pay Fields $20m for... Think about that. BC was willing to pay $56m for 3 years of Nash...all the while he had the same player who was younger on the roster already.

Instead he gives up a top 5 pick for Lowry, and then trade away Calderon (AND a 23 year old big Davis) who was playing MUCH better than Lowry, for one of the worst contract in the NBA in Gay who's PER says he's an average player. Gay gets SUPERSTAR money and he's not even an all star, let alone a superstar! And again, the crazy thing is they already had someone better or equivalent and younger on the roster in Derozan making much less than Gay.

and now this Jonas thing... look Jonas is a very good prospect, and I think he'll be a good center. But TOR fans and apparently BC are overrating the heck outta him. He hasn't shown he's going to be a franchise type player or even an all star C. 8 & 6 aren't staggering numbers for a rookie center.

This isn't just raptor fans you do know this right. A lot of people think Jonas will be a great player.

Knick_Fever
04-19-2013, 09:28 AM
:laugh2:

Well looki here the disease is spreading from management to the fans.

In a league depleted of quality big men, this isnt as ridiculous of a move as many think. This kid has strong potential and has the size to dominate. Players like him are hard to come by and with him getting more minutes and improvement, he'll be a 18-12, 2bpg type of player. Great non-move by Calangelo.

nycericanguy
04-19-2013, 09:30 AM
This isn't just raptor fans you do know this right. A lot of people think Jonas will be a great player.

Potential is hard to reach though, few players reach their full potential. He has a CHANCE to be a very good player, I wouldn't say "great" because the great ones usually step in and change teams right away.

the truth is TOR was a better team this year with Jonas OFF the court... he's not a good defender either. he could turn out to be a mini brook lopez, but he could also turn out to be Kostas Koufas... "potential" is what gets alot of GM's fired.

Harden was a top 7 player in the league this year, and you have TOR fans saying they wouldn't trade Val for him? I mean you have people here saying its harder to find a Jonas than it is a top 7 player?

I remember when Gallo was in NY, i realllly wanted him to stay, i thought he had 20/7/4 "potential"... and while he's turned into a very good player, he's been in the league like 6 years now and still hasn't topped 16ppg or 6rpg or 2apg. potential doesn't always pan out

I mean look at Ed Davis, came into the league at 19, put up 8ppg , 7rpg 1bpg in only 23mpg... but he never developed any further.

bucketss
04-19-2013, 09:34 AM
BC has to be the worst GM in the league.

Going back only one year, he gave Fields almost $7m per in a DESPERATE attempt to FORCE Nash to come to TOR, even though Nash clearly didn't want to and TOR was already offering $12m+ when other teams were offering around $8m.

He's been trying to replace Calderon for like a decade it seems, yet Calderon is better than every PG he brings in. I mean what's the beef with Jose? At this stage of his career he's probably better, or at least more reliable than Nash, who BC was willing to pay $36m for AND pay Fields $20m for... Think about that. BC was willing to pay $56m for 3 years of Nash...all the while he had the same player who was younger on the roster already.

Instead he gives up a top 5 pick for Lowry, and then trade away Calderon (AND a 23 year old big Davis) who was playing MUCH better than Lowry, for one of the worst contract in the NBA in Gay who's PER says he's an average player. Gay gets SUPERSTAR money and he's not even an all star, let alone a superstar! And again, the crazy thing is they already had someone better or equivalent and younger on the roster in Derozan making much less than Gay.

and now this Jonas thing... look Jonas is a very good prospect, and I think he'll be a good center. But TOR fans and apparently BC are overrating the heck outta him. He hasn't shown he's going to be a franchise type player or even an all star C. 8 & 6 aren't staggering numbers for a rookie center.

they only tried to replace him this year with lowry, jack and bayless were brought over to be his back up. he has also been injured/playing like crap for a bit before the past two years.

deaner
04-19-2013, 09:41 AM
BC has to be the worst GM in the league.

Going back only one year, he gave Fields almost $7m per in a DESPERATE attempt to FORCE Nash to come to TOR, even though Nash clearly didn't want to and TOR was already offering $12m+ when other teams were offering around $8m.

He's been trying to replace Calderon for like a decade it seems, yet Calderon is better than every PG he brings in. I mean what's the beef with Jose? At this stage of his career he's probably better, or at least more reliable than Nash, who BC was willing to pay $36m for AND pay Fields $20m for... Think about that. BC was willing to pay $56m for 3 years of Nash...all the while he had the same player who was younger on the roster already.

Instead he gives up a top 5 pick for Lowry, and then trade away Calderon (AND a 23 year old big Davis) who was playing MUCH better than Lowry, for one of the worst contract in the NBA in Gay who's PER says he's an average player. Gay gets SUPERSTAR money and he's not even an all star, let alone a superstar! And again, the crazy thing is they already had someone better or equivalent and younger on the roster in Derozan making much less than Gay.

and now this Jonas thing... look Jonas is a very good prospect, and I think he'll be a good center. But TOR fans and apparently BC are overrating the heck outta him. He hasn't shown he's going to be a franchise type player or even an all star C. 8 & 6 aren't staggering numbers for a rookie center.

All of you stats are exaggerations, especially the top 5 draft pick for Lowry.

thunderforce
04-19-2013, 09:41 AM
As it stands now if we don't move up it will be Lowry for the 11th pick , not a top 5 pick .

nycericanguy
04-19-2013, 09:43 AM
All of you stats are exaggerations, especially the top 5 draft pick for Lowry.

i didn't post any stats? :confused:

but my bad on the pick, i don't know why i was thinking top 5

Tmath
04-19-2013, 09:56 AM
Most of the non raptor fans posting in here probably know little to nothing about Valanciunas and the raptors, so take what they say with a grain of salt.

deaner
04-19-2013, 10:05 AM
i didn't post any stats? :confused:

but my bad on the pick, i don't know why i was thinking top 5

Landry has a 3 year deal of 6.25M

We were closer than you acknowledge to landing Nash.

I can't believe a knick fan would point the finger at our team for financial responsibility. You continue to lose players who's contracts are up because you can't afford them.... Because you are paying Stat 20, Camby 4.5... What are you going to do when you can't sign JR, Copland, Prigioni because you don't have their bird rights and the MLE isn't going to cut it. You could always amnesty Stat... Oh wait, you previously used it on a dumb deal. This whole "your team sucks thing" is pretty easy to play. But I value my time more that more than to hash out known facts.

nycericanguy
04-19-2013, 10:09 AM
Landry has a 3 year deal of 6.25M

We were closer than you acknowledge to landing Nash.

I can't believe a knick fan would point the finger at our team for financial responsibility. You continue to lose players who's contracts are up because you can't afford them.... Because you are paying Stat 20, Camby 4.5... What are you going to do when you can't sign JR, Copland, Prigioni because you don't have their bird rights and the MLE isn't going to cut it. You could always amnesty Stat... Oh wait, you previously used it on a dumb deal. This whole "your team sucks thing" is pretty easy to play. But I value my time more that more than to hash out known facts.

lol wow... so now you're going to try to turn this into a Knick hate thread because i expressed my opinion on BC? Childish much?

First off, I like TOR... TOR fans have alot of passion for that team, like the Knicks, there are 20 page game threads even when TOR is only winning 30 games.

I just can't stand what BC is doing there. And no Nash wasn't close to going there... he had EVERY opportunity to go there and left $10m on the table to go elsewhere.

and saying field's got almost $7m is an exaggeration? really? ok my bad, he got $19m over 3 years, not 21... sorry for my huge mistake!

and for the record, we DO have JR's early bird rights, Pablo isn't going anywhere, if he plays in the NBA it will be in NY, otherwise he goes back to EUR. and Copeland isn't a big piece to this team so i could care less either way.

oh and amnestying Amare would do nothing for us, we're over the cap with or without him.

nice TROLL attempt/

colinskik
04-19-2013, 10:10 AM
If the Heat offered LeBron for JV I would turn it down . Because I would rather have JV for 10 plus years than have LeBron for one or two since we all know he would not stay in Toronto long .

Don't expect anyone to believe this tripe. You just killed any credibility you thought you had. If JV ends up being a star who will demand money, good luck keeping him up there in the great white north.

And to all the other TOR fans who can't acknowledge how good Harden really is, make sure you watch him in the playoffs because I have a strong feeling he's going to give his old team a run for their money.

Plus, if the players you have are so good, how come your team is still garbage? I'm sorry, I don't think Derozan is all that good. I see him as more of a 6th man type of guy than anything else. He's pretty good, but he's not going to carry a team to success.

sportscrazed
04-19-2013, 10:14 AM
Are people seriously using the Per36 stat when talking about a center? Centers get tired as they play more minutes and stats can go down from that. For example at one point this year Nets fans were talking about how Reggie Evans had a Per36 of like 20 rebounds. When someone plays less minutes they can use more effort, especially centers (a position where players are known to get tired most easy).

On to Jonas, he is already a very good player and from what I hear from Raps fans (before the season at least) he is the next coming of Hakeem.

Not doing this trade was not what made the Raps a bad team, that Rudy Gay trade was. Every time I watch the Raps play I look at this guy and say if he wasn't on the team the Raps would be better. Only elite players should take over 18 shots a game.

bucketss
04-19-2013, 10:17 AM
If the Heat offered LeBron for JV I would turn it down . Because I would rather have JV for 10 plus years than have LeBron for one or two since we all know he would not stay in Toronto long .

unless we surround him with talent, honestly its worth the gamble..

BALLER R
04-19-2013, 10:18 AM
Don't expect anyone to believe this tripe. You just killed any credibility you thought you had. If JV ends up being a star who will demand money, good luck keeping him up there in the great white north.

And to all the other TOR fans who can't acknowledge how good Harden really is, make sure you watch him in the playoffs because I have a strong feeling he's going to give his old team a run for their money.

Plus, if the players you have are so good, how come your team is still garbage? I'm sorry, I don't think Derozan is all that good. I see him as more of a 6th man type of guy than anything else. He's pretty good, but he's not going to carry a team to success.

Why would we have trouble keeping him

sportscrazed
04-19-2013, 10:21 AM
Why would we have trouble keeping him

How did keeping Chris Bosh work for you all?

pebloemer
04-19-2013, 10:21 AM
There are many reasons to not like Colangelo and want him removed from the Raptor's FO.

This rumor doesn't make my list to be honest. I'm absolutely thrilled about he future of Valanciunas. He is a 20 year old rookie C with exceptional physical tools and motor making the transition from Europe. There is a reason a lot of GM's were very high on him on draft night. There were plenty of rumors that the Spurs were willing to trade Tony Parker to draft Jonas. Buford and Presti are two reputable GM's willing to offer significant assets for him (if rumors are true).

Would I make the deal? I would need to more of the specifics. But I feel as if Colangelo's reputation (well earned) is garnering more hate in this thread than this specific rumor to be honest.

colinskik
04-19-2013, 10:22 AM
Why would we have trouble keeping him

I don't know ... admittedly that statement doesn't have much backing, but historically it's been hard for TOR to keep its stars.

And that's not a knock on the area, cause I personally like Toronto a lot, but it doesn't seem that the majority of NBA players share my opinion.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 10:22 AM
Drummond is smooth and his game is sexy. You're crazy, or more likely, you haven't watched him play very often.

I have watched him play. You can tell his mental game isn't quite there, he doesn't have a great motor, no post moves, awful FT shooter. He is just a big guy that is very athletic.

He has also already missed a lot of games in his rookie season due to back problems. If these problems have started already at 19 years old, then it could become a concern in the near future.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2013, 10:25 AM
Valanciunas is averaging 15/10 next year, I wouldn't have traded for him either. We already have two wings that chuck, albeit not as good as getting to the FT line.

Not even the most homer Raps fan is not throwing up in their mouth if this is true. Cmon

C_Mund
04-19-2013, 10:25 AM
There had to be more to this trade proposal. No way Toronto doesn't trade for a surefire star. Unless he refused to discuss extension with them.

This probably plays a bigger factor in Toronto than almost any other city.

Gators123
04-19-2013, 10:30 AM
I have watched him play. You can tell his mental game isn't quite there, he doesn't have a great motor, no post moves, awful FT shooter. He is just a big guy that is very athletic.

He has also already missed a lot of games in his rookie season due to back problems. If these problems have started already at 19 years old, then it could become a concern in the near future.

You CLEARLY haven't watched him play more than 1-2 games. No motor? You're just going by what was said of him before the draft. He has a very high motor.

And this was Drummonds injury-


A stress fracture, medically known as Spondylolysis, is the most common overuse injury of the lower back in sport. This condition is classified as either a bone stress reaction or a stress fracture of the lower back. It is especially common in growing adolescents and symptoms are often related to the 'growth spurt'.

Once its healed, its completely fine. Its not like he has disk problems.

And he played in 60 games this season. How many did JV play in? 62.

deaner
04-19-2013, 10:34 AM
For all the "I hate BC" posts here... Do what you want.

The take away from this was OKC came with an offer: Harden for JVal. Jonas is the real deal. You should watch him.

thunderforce
04-19-2013, 10:35 AM
How did keeping Chris Bosh work for you all?

Bosh is an American as I said earlier most American players only want to play in the USA . Jonas is not from the USA so he will have no problem resigning with the Raptors .

heyman321
04-19-2013, 10:35 AM
Not even the most homer Raps fan is not throwing up in their mouth if this is true. Cmon

There's nothing ridiculous about it.

pebloemer
04-19-2013, 10:38 AM
You CLEARLY haven't watched him play more than 1-2 games. No motor? You're just going by what was said of him before the draft. He has a very high motor.

And this was Drummonds injury-

Once its healed, its completely fine. Its not like he has disk problems.

And he played in 60 games this season. How many did JV play in? 62.

Interesting about Drummond. I really wanted the Raptor's to draft him at 8 and was pissed when they didn't.

I didn't even know he had Spondylolysis. I was actually dealing with a lot of back problems last year and after X-rays was confirmed to have Spondylolysis as well as another back issue that I didn't fully understand. Obviously no one here has all of the information about Drummond's condition, so there is no sense trying to pretend to know whether it could be an issue or not. I know my back will remain an issue for my life, but that doesn't mean his will. But it seems logical that his size and athleticism could lead to a lot of impact in his lower spine. Hopefully it doesn't affect his career at all.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 10:38 AM
Here is a video of just his last months highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZnYlLSd58w

Unstoppable hook shot
High quick release on his jump shot (almost ray allen like)
Elite pump fake
A variety of most moves
Already a great FT shooter
Good physical tools (7 foot, 7"6 wingspan)
Plays tough despite being skinny
Is already great at drawing fouls
Great motor

Once he gets stronger, he is going to be tough for anyone to stop him. The thing he needs to improve on is passing out of double teams. He already has the right idea by keeping the ball high are surveying the floor, he just isn't finding the right man yet, and I have total confidence he will adjust.

TheIlladelph16
04-19-2013, 10:49 AM
Bosh is an American as I said earlier most American players only want to play in the USA . Jonas is not from the USA so he will have no problem resigning with the Raptors .

If he becomes the star that Raptors fans think he will become, where he calls his homeland will be less than irrelevant.

Mikeleafs
04-19-2013, 10:50 AM
Harden hasn't become a superstar but damn near every knowledgeable fan was expecting him to at worst become prime Joe Johnsonesque. It was common knowledge that Harden would be super productive in a starting/centrepiece capacity.

How did Bynum turn out for ya? LOL

I told you the Sixers got raped when they traded away Iggy for nothing...

Back on topic, at the time I would have done the deal for Harden but seeing Val play the way he has lately Im happy with the decision to keep him... At the very least his knees are still solid :D

colinskik
04-19-2013, 10:50 AM
Bosh is an American as I said earlier most American players only want to play in the USA . Jonas is not from the USA so he will have no problem resigning with the Raptors .

That's a bit of an assumption if I've ever heard one, not to mention a hasty generalization.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 10:51 AM
Here is a video of just his last months highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZnYlLSd58w

Unstoppable hook shot
High quick release on his jump shot (almost ray allen like)
Elite pump fake
A variety of most moves
Already a great FT shooter
Good physical tools (7 foot, 7"6 wingspan)
Plays tough despite being skinny
Is already great at drawing fouls
Great motor

Once he gets stronger, he is going to be tough for anyone to stop him. The thing he needs to improve on is passing out of double teams. He already has the right idea by keeping the ball high are surveying the floor, he just isn't finding the right man yet, and I have total confidence he will adjust.

Thanks for the video because it just gives a glimpse of how amazing this kid is going to be... He's a rookie right now and looks spectacular and the funny thing is the kid is extremely unselfish and always has a great attitude.

I'm glad we stuck with him and for those who are being super critical right now the years of Jonas are just beginning and I'm already impressed in his 1st year. I can't wait for year #2!!!

heyman321
04-19-2013, 10:51 AM
How did Bynum turn out for ya? LOL

I told you the Sixers got raped when they traded away Iggy for nothing...

Back on topic, at the time I would have done the deal for Harden but seeing Val play the way he has lately Im happy with the decision to keep him... At the very least his knees are still solid :D

And he can make free throws and actually has post moves.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 10:52 AM
That's a bit of an assumption if I've ever heard one, not to mention a hasty generalization.

I guess you'd have to tell us what Euro players we have had a hard time holding on to cause I can't think of one.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 10:54 AM
If he becomes the star that Raptors fans think he will become, where he calls his homeland will be less than irrelevant.

If it comes down to money like you might be assuming then when his contract is up we can offer him the most and we have probably the biggest multi cultural society in North America.

Someone would have to convince me on why he would leave when the time comes.

Vinylman
04-19-2013, 10:57 AM
I might be the only Raptor fan that is glad we didn't pick Drummond.

Drummond has great physical tools, but the kid is not a very good basketball player. Aside from dunks and rebounds, his game is ugly as hell.

LMAO...

You just described the center on the 2011 NBA champions

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 10:59 AM
LMAO...

You just described the center on the 2011 NBA champions

Brendan Haywood?

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 11:01 AM
In a league depleted of quality big men, this isnt as ridiculous of a move as many think. This kid has strong potential and has the size to dominate. Players like him are hard to come by and with him getting more minutes and improvement, he'll be a 18-12, 2bpg type of player. Great non-move by Calangelo.

Not many great SGs in the league either. Harden is a top 4-8 player right now imagine when he actually has another player on his team who can consistently create his own shot. Doubt Jonas ever reaches that level.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2013, 11:02 AM
There's nothing ridiculous about it.

no, there is. Harden is a top 15 player already at age 24.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2013, 11:03 AM
Not many great SGs in the league either. Harden is a top 4-8 player right now imagine when he actually has another player on his team who can consistently create his own shot. Doubt Jonas ever reaches that level.

His complete inconsistencies against good teams offensively, and his lack of defense push him out of the top 10 for me.

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 11:03 AM
Brendan Haywood?

If your serious :pity:

Gators123
04-19-2013, 11:03 AM
LMAO...

You just described the center on the 2011 NBA champions

wow I didn't even see that post lol

:laugh2: Drummond isn't good at basketball..
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=drumman01&y1=2013&p2=valanjo01&y2=2013

And his ugly game-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvKrthuTFUk

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 11:04 AM
His complete inconsistencies against good teams offensively, and his lack of defense push him out of the top 10 for me.

So who'd you have over him?

hugepatsfan
04-19-2013, 11:05 AM
Hardly the biggest blunder of that organizations recent history.

THE GIPPER
04-19-2013, 11:10 AM
Meh who really cares. The report is likely not giving the full truth and if I were BC I wouldnt have done it either. Theres no way in hell Harden would re-sign with the Raptors. As a non Raptor fan living in Canada, I've seen JV play lots and I think he'll be an all-star sooner rather than later. He already has the skill and works harder than anyone I've seen in the NBA. He's a little slim and needs to learn the NBA game, but that'll come.

colinskik
04-19-2013, 11:11 AM
I guess you'd have to tell us what Euro players we have had a hard time holding on to cause I can't think of one.

If that's your arguement, then tell me which of the Euros you've had ever amounted to any sort of success?

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 11:11 AM
If your serious :pity:

Well he's definately does not resemble Chandler to me anyone else think he does?!?

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 11:14 AM
@Hawk aside from KD, Bron and Cp3. I'm not seeing 7 players that are "clearly" better (shoots let alone better than him) at all. Unless you're counting guys who are injured but then i goes to somewhere around 8-9ish.

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 11:15 AM
Well he's definately does not resemble Chandler to me anyone else think he does?!?

Chandler* has great physical tools, but the kid is not a very good basketball player. Aside from dunks and rebounds, his game is ugly as hell.

^Seems legit.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 11:17 AM
If that's your arguement, then tell me which of the Euros you've had ever amounted to any sort of success?

All I can remember when you made your arguement is Antonio Davis not wanting to stay in Toronto because he's concerned about his kids using the Canadian education system :facepalm:

Sorry if you can't see it but some americans just don't want to come to Canada and don't want to stay here plain and simple. Not that I completely blame them that most want to go back to there home country.

Jonas is completely different and I know whole heartedly will embrass the multicultural society here (that and we can offer him more money than any other team).

Why would he leave? Maybe that should be the arguement!

Byronicle
04-19-2013, 11:18 AM
My beef with your statement is that he IS averaging 15 and 10 next year as if its fact. I know you got your bias because JC is your dude and you understand your GMs POV but trading for Harden is a no brainer even with DeRozan on board.

majority of raptor fans want Bryan Colangelo out. that is a fact. it is also a fact that Raptors are not managed by JC or Jerry Colangelo


So what? We signed Jrue to 11 mil but if we had a shot at trading for Paul for Evan, Thad and future picks (a pipe dream) and he agrees that he'd sign an extension we'd absolutely do it. DeRozan has played more than a quarter of his minutes for his career at the SF he'd benefit from playing alongside a player the calibre of Harden.

Here you are being a hypocrite after having "beef" with another guy who projected Valanciunas stats as a fact. You are making it seem like a fact that Philly would make a trade. Its a what if scenario. How do you know for sure? Maybe the 76ers are content with having Jrue Holliday their only PG. Maybe part of the reason for trading Igoudala was to make Jrue more effective, which was the speculative reason. If that is the case, why would 76ers "undoubtedly" trade for another ball dominant PG, when they traded Igoudala to give the keys to Jrue?

Tmath
04-19-2013, 11:19 AM
wow I didn't even see that post lol

:laugh2: Drummond isn't good at basketball..
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=drumman01&y1=2013&p2=valanjo01&y2=2013

And his ugly game-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvKrthuTFUk

All that highlight shows is exactly what I've been saying. He has great physical tools, especially defensively, but everything else is just dunks, blocks and layups, and thats his best highlights for the whole season. The Valanciunas video I just posted is just last months highlights.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 11:20 AM
Chandler* has great physical tools, but the kid is not a very good basketball player. Aside from dunks and rebounds, his game is ugly as hell.

^Seems legit.

Chandler changed the whole culture of that team defensively and was probably the 2nd most important person on that championship squad so no I don't think they relate.

mjt20mik
04-19-2013, 11:20 AM
Had to be something else with this deal. I really think Harden wouldn't resign with Toronto.

Either way, I'm happy with Val. Been improving this season, and he's only 19. I really see him, drummond and kanter being the future of the 5 position in this league.

Byronicle
04-19-2013, 11:24 AM
Harden was seen by the majority of fans that he was going to be a bonafide star? That is news to me...

And it is news. The majority of fans use hindsight to back up their arguments

Because from I remember there was a lot of talk doubting Harden's ability to LEAD a team. There was the theory that Harden was effective because he had 2 of the league's top scorers in Durant and Westbrook

Look at Boston. Rondo is a top PG, but the argument was that Garnett and Pierce made him look better. Down goes Rondo and Boston becomes relevant. The same argument was said about Harden. It could've went either way but people are speaking in hindsight

and hindsight trumps All!

Gators123
04-19-2013, 11:24 AM
All that highlight shows is exactly what I've been saying. He has great physical tools, especially defensively, but everything else is just dunks, blocks and layups, and thats his best highlights for the whole season. The Valanciunas video I just posted is just last months highlights.

Drummond is the 2nd youngest player in the NBA and is probably the most raw player in the NBA. Did anybody expect him to have a post game his 1st season? Hell, did anybody expect him to play more than 10 MPG this season?

Drummond was drafted off his potential, and the fact that hes already producing at the level he did this season is pretty crazy. Hes FAR from a finished product.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 11:25 AM
Had to be something else with this deal. I really think Harden wouldn't resign with Toronto.

Either way, I'm happy with Val. Been improving this season, and he's only 19. I really see him, drummond and kanter being the future of the 5 position in this league.

He's 20, but yeah, for his age, and where he is in his development, I couldn't be happier.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2013, 11:27 AM
@Hawk aside from KD, Bron and Cp3. I'm not seeing 7 players that are "clearly" better (shoots let alone better than him) at all. Unless you're counting guys who are injured but then i goes to somewhere around 8-9ish.

Parker, Westbrook, Rose, Love, Rose, Wade, are all better for me. But two of them were hurt all year basically. Dwight will probably regain his top 5 spot next season if healthy as well. Harden just forces it too much many times against good teams, and is a poor defender currently. I do think he continues his climb. There are a couple guys (Love being one of them), that are probably never going to climb much higher, but Harden isn't one of them.

TheIlladelph16
04-19-2013, 11:29 AM
If it comes down to money like you might be assuming then when his contract is up we can offer him the most and we have probably the biggest multi cultural society in North America.

Someone would have to convince me on why he would leave when the time comes.

Uhhhhh, what if your team ****ing sucks when its time for him to leave? IF he turns out to be the star C Raptors fans are already overrating him to be and your team sucks, why would he stay? Maybe because he is still young at that point he will, but tell me the last time the Raptors were an actual contender. What makes you think they will be in the next 3-4 years with Rudy Gay chucking up shots with no defense and clogging up your salary cap?

Look, I get it. You love your young guy, and as a fan of the Raptors, you should. But try to take a realistic, objective approach to your evaluation here. Colangelo should have pulled the trigger on that deal just like the Wizards should have.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 11:31 AM
Drummond is the 2nd youngest player in the NBA and is probably the most raw player in the NBA. Did anybody expect him to have a post game his 1st season? Hell, did anybody expect him to play more than 10 MPG this season?

Drummond was drafted off his potential, at the fact that hes already producing at the level he did this season is pretty crazy.

Tyson Chandler came into the NBA at 18 years old, he still has no post game.

Drummond will be a very good player, possibly to likely an all-star down the road. I think he will be a very good defender in this league, I just don't think he will become a dominant offensive player.

JV's offensive polish is miles ahead of Drummond right now and is only a year older.

North Yorker
04-19-2013, 11:34 AM
Would need to more specifics of the deal, like who else Toronto would be sending and if Harden would've re-signed.

That being said I think Valanciunas can become a top 3 C in the league in 3 years time, and he's on a rookie scale deal too so I'm not terribly mad at how it turned out.

I said after the Harden trade went down I would've traded DeRozan+ Ross+ Davis for him in a heartbeat, which I think would've been comparable to the haul OKC got from Houston.

Didnt GSW turn down Harden for Thompson+? If so that is a bigger blunder imo.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 11:36 AM
Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar.
Facepalm time


I get that people have been clamoring for Harden to "be the man" and that he hasn't disappointed in that role, but there is a reason that teams like Washington and Toronto turned down these deals (and why Presti extended the offers for that matter).
I get Toronto's situation, Ive seen some nice glimpses from Val, but Washington? I thought they had new management in place.



As for Washington, the less ball-dominant Beal who may or may not be the next Eric Gordon (but healthy) makes more sense next to Wall than Harden who would likely make the former #1 pick less effective.
Your forgetting the reason the Thunder drafted Harden in the first place, up until that point Eric Gordon was actually more ball dominant than the Harden we saw in OKC.
Which brings me to my next point, we've already seen Harden produce at an insane level despite playing alongside the most ball dominant PG in the league and another superstar in Durant. Why would he have trouble playing alongside a pass first PG? I think they would compliment each other very well.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 11:36 AM
Uhhhhh, what if your team ****ing sucks when its time for him to leave? IF he turns out to be the star C Raptors fans are already overrating him to be and your team sucks, why would he stay? Maybe because he is still young at that point he will, but tell me the last time the Raptors were an actual contender. What makes you think they will be in the next 3-4 years with Rudy Gay chucking up shots with no defense and clogging up your salary cap?

Look, I get it. You love your young guy, and as a fan of the Raptors, you should. But try to take a realistic, objective approach to your evaluation here. Colangelo should have pulled the trigger on that deal just like the Wizards should have.

What if donkeys can fly...

Try a better arguement thanks!

colinskik
04-19-2013, 11:38 AM
All I can remember when you made your arguement is Antonio Davis not wanting to stay in Toronto because he's concerned about his kids using the Canadian education system :facepalm:

Sorry if you can't see it but some americans just don't want to come to Canada and don't want to stay here plain and simple. Not that I completely blame them that most want to go back to there home country.

Jonas is completely different and I know whole heartedly will embrass the multicultural society here (that and we can offer him more money than any other team).

Why would he leave? Maybe that should be the arguement!

You're really assuming A LOT here. There's no telling what he may or may not do, but you're talking as if itís a done deal he stays in TOR his entire career, and thatís simple bad logic.

My whole point is just that for as many Euro players that have stayed in Toronto, not even one of them has been a player that can help win a championship, so maybe the reason they stay is because no other team wants them.

Never have a spit on Toronto because I like Toronto. I even said so in an earlier post. But thereís no denying that NBA players donít like staying up there, especially the ones who are poised to be big starts. Itís just the way itís been, historically.

And yes, Toronto has a multi-ethnic and diverse society, but so do many American cities, i.e. New York City, which is the most diverse city possibly in the world.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:39 AM
What if donkeys can fly...

Try a better arguement thanks!

Pot meet kettle

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 11:41 AM
Would need to more specifics of the deal, like who else Toronto would be sending and if Harden would've re-signed.
That being said I think Valanciunas can become a top 3 C in the league in 3 years time, and he's on a rookie scale deal too so I'm not terribly mad at how it turned out.

I said after the Harden trade went down I would've traded DeRozan+ Ross+ Davis for him in a heartbeat, which I think would've been comparable to the haul OKC got from Houston.

Didnt GSW turn down Harden for Thompson+? If so that is a bigger blunder imo.

This is what I said in my 1st post...

Too many people are making too many assumptions on here.

Vinylman
04-19-2013, 11:42 AM
wow I didn't even see that post lol

:laugh2: Drummond isn't good at basketball..
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=drumman01&y1=2013&p2=valanjo01&y2=2013

And his ugly game-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvKrthuTFUk

yeah... Drummond is just a guy who gets trashed because he was #1 coming out of HS and then didn't do a lot his Freshman year at UConn (a team in turmoil) and fell in the draft...

He will prove his detractors wrong...

colinskik
04-19-2013, 11:42 AM
Harden was seen by the majority of fans that he was going to be a bonafide star? That is news to me...

And it is news. The majority of fans use hindsight to back up their arguments
Because from I remember there was a lot of talk doubting Harden's ability to LEAD a team. There was the theory that Harden was effective because he had 2 of the league's top scorers in Durant and Westbrook

Look at Boston. Rondo is a top PG, but the argument was that Garnett and Pierce made him look better. Down goes Rondo and Boston becomes relevant. The same argument was said about Harden. It could've went either way but people are speaking in hindsight

and hindsight trumps All!

Not for nothing, but I picked Harden with my first pick in both fantasy leagues because I saw this coming. And if I saw it coming, I can sure as **** say that many other people saw it coming.

In case youíre curious, he propelled me to victories in both leagues. Yeah, heís good.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:43 AM
Would need to more specifics of the deal, like who else Toronto would be sending and if Harden would've re-signed.

That being said I think Valanciunas can become a top 3 C in the league in 3 years time, and he's on a rookie scale deal too so I'm not terribly mad at how it turned out.

I said after the Harden trade went down I would've traded DeRozan+ Ross+ Davis for him in a heartbeat, which I think would've been comparable to the haul OKC got from Houston.

Didnt GSW turn down Harden for Thompson+? If so that is a bigger blunder imo.

All you guys keep saying he can become a top 3 C. We already know Dwight is one, Cousins ceiling is much higher, Drummond's is as well then you have Monroe, Asik, Gasol, Lopez, Noah, Pekovic and maybe by some miracle Bynum. Don't see Jonas being that much better than any of those guys.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:44 AM
This is what I said in my 1st post...

Too many people are making too many assumptions on here.

And like I said let's agree with the assumption that its more or less a straight up deal and Harden agrees to extend do you make the deal?

Chronz
04-19-2013, 11:45 AM
Tyson Chandler came into the NBA at 18 years old, he still has no post game.

Drummond will be a very good player, possibly to likely an all-star down the road. I think he will be a very good defender in this league, I just don't think he will become a dominant offensive player.

JV's offensive polish is miles ahead of Drummond right now and is only a year older.
The fact that hes so much more productive despite being so raw is why hes a better prospect than Val.

North Yorker
04-19-2013, 11:45 AM
Uhhhhh, what if your team ****ing sucks when its time for him to leave? IF he turns out to be the star C Raptors fans are already overrating him to be and your team sucks, why would he stay? Maybe because he is still young at that point he will, but tell me the last time the Raptors were an actual contender. What makes you think they will be in the next 3-4 years with Rudy Gay chucking up shots with no defense and clogging up your salary cap?

Look, I get it. You love your young guy, and as a fan of the Raptors, you should. But try to take a realistic, objective approach to your evaluation here. Colangelo should have pulled the trigger on that deal just like the Wizards should have.

Your logic here could directly be assessed towards Harden, you know that right?

We just came off a 23-43 season, you think Harden would've been more likely to re-sign now in Toronto than in 3-4 yrs down the road when JV is due up for an extension?

Gators123
04-19-2013, 11:46 AM
Tyson Chandler came into the NBA at 18 years old, he still has no post game.

Drummond will be a very good player, possibly to likely an all-star down the road. I think he will be a very good defender in this league, I just don't think he will become a dominant offensive player.

JV's offensive polish is miles ahead of Drummond right now and is only a year older.


I don't think Dre will be a dominant offensive player either, but I read a few days ago that Frank has said Drummond has some offensive moves that he didn't get a chance to show this year.

And JV has been playing pro basketball since 08 so thats probably one of the reasons why his offensive game is that much more polished.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:48 AM
Your logic here could directly be assessed towards Harden, you know that right?

We just came off a 23-43 season, you think Harden would've been more likely to re-sign now in Toronto than in 3-4 yrs down the road when JV is due up for an extension?

Even after the Trade the Rockets were expected to miss the post season. Harden wanted to get paid and be the man, what better place to be the many than in Toronto?

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:50 AM
I like how people are just assuming:

A. That Harden agreed to sign long term with the raps
B. That JV was the only player offered in the deal

Jonas has all star potential and I believe will be a top 3 prospect in this league... People are judging this before anything has panned out. Jonas is not a bust and has barely scratched his potential and he's already averaging 13pts and 8 rebounds when given minutes and he's a Rookie

Per 36 Minutes he averages --> 9Reb, 13.5pts and 2blks
Dwight Howard in his rookie year averaged --> 11Reb, 13.2pts and 2blks

That's just to show people who are saying this was the worst move in sports history that the have absolutely no clue about basketball. He came close to D12 stats with a skinny body and being an extremly unselfish player. I'm not saying he's a Dwight Howard because he's a completely different player but as far as this being a stupid move to keep a top prospect on your team on a rookie contract I strongly disagree.

Dude is a workhorse, has no ego, is a team player...

I'm glad we kept the kid and I can't wait to see the future unfold for this kid!

Nikola Vucevic rookie per36 12.4, 10.9 and 1.5.

I'd trade him AND Evan for Harden 10 times out of 10.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:51 AM
If the Heat offered LeBron for JV I would turn it down . Because I would rather have JV for 10 plus years than have LeBron for one or two since we all know he would not stay in Toronto long .

Okay Durant. Durant agrees to extend in Toronto would you trade Durant for him straight up?

Green_Monster
04-19-2013, 11:51 AM
:laugh: @ you. Valanciunas is averaging like 15/8 when he actually plays meaningful minutes. It's the coach that needs to get canned. Harden is good but centers are tougher gems to find

Harden isn't good, he's great. He's a top 3 SG and top 10 player in the league.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 11:51 AM
One thing that is getting overlooked here is that OKC inquired the Raptors about Valanciunas for Harden.
That right there shows the value of Valanciunas.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 11:56 AM
The fact that hes so much more productive despite being so raw is why hes a better prospect than Val.

Drummond played most of his minutes coming off the bench and playing against opposing teams second units. Stats can be deceiving sometimes.

JV started in the majority of his games played, playing against the opposing teams best players.

North Yorker
04-19-2013, 11:57 AM
All you guys keep saying he can become a top 3 C. We already know Dwight is one, Cousins ceiling is much higher, Drummond's is as well then you have Monroe, Asik, Gasol, Lopez, Noah, Pekovic and maybe by some miracle Bynum. Don't see Jonas being that much better than any of those guys.

Cousins's ceiling is not much higher when you take into account he's a headcase. Drummond is no where near as polished offensively and will be a liability at the end of games until he proves he cannot airball two FTs in a row. Monroe will be a PF if Drummond is a C, Gasol should be still good/great in 3 yrs time. Asik doesnt have nearly the offensive potential, Lopez is not a great defender/two way player. Noah has had injury issues the 3 of the last 4 yrs, and his style of play doesnt bode well for his play into his 30's. Pekovic's body type is concerning, and Bynum has no cartilage in his knees.

Valanciunas just needs to gain some more strength (he' already 257 lbs) and become a better passer out of double teams.

He projects as a fantastic 2-way player, something that is rare at the C position. I see no reason barring injuries he can't become what M. Gasol is now a few yrs down the road.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 11:59 AM
In a league depleted of quality big men, this isnt as ridiculous of a move as many think. This kid has strong potential and has the size to dominate. Players like him are hard to come by and with him getting more minutes and improvement, he'll be a 18-12, 2bpg type of player. Great non-move by Calangelo.

Depleted quality big men? :confused:

This league is more depleted at the two than it is at the PF/C. It can be argued that as recently as last season the PF was the strongest position in the NBA.

Players in the league who have the potential to average 18-12-2. Love, Marc, Blake, Bosh, Lopez (not quite there with the rebs), Lee, Bynum, Dwight, Pekovic, Duncan, Anthony Davis, Al Horford and I'm probably ignoring a couple here or there. How many players in the league today can average 26, 6 and 6. Harden, LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Westbrook, Rose?

A legit #1 option like Harden is rarer to find and is a more intricate part of a successful team than a player such as JV.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:01 PM
One thing that is getting overlooked here is that OKC inquired the Raptors about Valanciunas for Harden.
That right there shows the value of Valanciunas.

They were trying to acquire Beal and Klay Thompson as well. :shrug:

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:06 PM
All you guys keep saying he can become a top 3 C. We already know Dwight is one, Cousins ceiling is much higher, Drummond's is as well then you have Monroe, Asik, Gasol, Lopez, Noah, Pekovic and maybe by some miracle Bynum. Don't see Jonas being that much better than any of those guys.

Jonas's numbers per 36 minutes were shy 2 rebounds of Dwight Howards rookie year and the kid is completely unselfish was much skinnier and didn't get as many touches as D12 did so I don't know where you are making your comparisons from.

Also other GM's around the league would disagree with you on your ceiling predictions of Jonas... Maybe you know more than them though...




- Jonas Valanciunas was tied for second (behind Kyrie Irving) with Ricky Rubio and Derrick Williams in the “Which rookie will be the best player in five years” category

- Valanciunas also received a vote in the “Which rookie is most likely to be a sleeper success” category and most impressive of all, was the number one vote-getter (with 36 per cent of responding GM’s voting for him) in the “Who is the best international player not in the NBA” category. Looking at the praise other general managers have for Valanciunas and at his performance in Lithuania over the last year, it’s hard to find many people still disappointed in Bryan Colangelo’s draft night selection.




http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog/category/ed-stefanski/

bucketss
04-19-2013, 12:07 PM
Okay Durant. Durant agrees to extend in Toronto would you trade Durant for him straight up?

lol.

miller74
04-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Not as crazy as some make it out to be. Harden was a 3rd option who wanted a max contract. Tough and talented big men are tough to find, theres a reason Darko was taken so high, because thats a rare commodity these days.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:10 PM
Drummond played most of his minutes coming off the bench and playing against opposing teams second units. Stats can be deceiving sometimes.

JV started in the majority of his games played, playing against the opposing teams best players.

+1

Playing against 2nd units/ 2nd string centers would make your stats look a little inflated... Playing against D12, Cousins, Horford, Garnett... etc and averaging JV's numbers is a much different story.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:11 PM
Cousins's ceiling is not much higher when you take into account he's a headcase.

We've seen absolute head cases become NBA Champion HOFers. Even with all his crazy actions he's one of the most gifted big men in the game today.


Drummond is no where near as polished offensively and will be a liability at the end of games until he proves he cannot airball two FTs in a row.

And his defensive upside is more valuable than anything Val brings to the table. Would you take Brad Daugherty over Ben Wallace?


Monroe will be a PF if Drummond is a C,

Fair enough but as it stands right now he's a better C and touted to be better going forward than Val. You never know one can be traded or sign elsewhere and both end up playing the C.


Gasol should be still good/great in 3 yrs time.

And he'd still be better defensively than Val.


Asik doesnt have nearly the offensive potential

Defensively Val doesn't hold a candle to Asik and as a rebounder he isn't going to be better either. Asik while not being as polished offensively he's still valuable with his put backs and offensive rebounding. He can still hurt you greatly offensively if you don't throw two bodies on him.


Lopez is not a great defender/two way player.

Question did you watch Lopez play this past season. His defense was improved quite a lot. Both on the ball and protecting the rim.


Noah has had injury issues the 3 of the last 4 yrs, and his style of play doesnt bode well for his play into his 30's.

Best point you've made thus far.


Pekovic's body type is concerning,

Since when being the strongest player in the NBA is a concern? :confused:


and Bynum has no cartilage in his knees.

Neither does Al Jefferson and he tied his career high in points and had maybe the best game of his career 4 days ago. You don't need cartilage in your knees to play basketball.


Valanciunas just needs to gain some more strength (he' already 257 lbs) and become a better passer out of double teams.

He projects as a fantastic 2-way player, something that is rare at the C position. I see no reason barring injuries he can't become what M. Gasol is now a few yrs down the road.

But you see reason why all those other players can't be top 3 Cs? Interesting isn't that?

Vinylman
04-19-2013, 12:14 PM
Jonas's numbers per 36 minutes were shy 2 rebounds of Dwight Howards rookie year and the kid is completely unselfish was much skinnier and didn't get as many touches as D12 did so I don't know where you are making your comparisons from.

Also other GM's around the league would disagree with you on your ceiling predictions of Jonas... Maybe you know more than them though...



http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog/category/ed-stefanski/

I always get such a kick out of the bolded... find one irrelevant example of how a guy compares to the best at his position in the league and somehow that guy is in the same league as a D12...

Unfortunately, the comparison should never be year 1 it should always be each player at the same age which means they aren't even close... second, the idea That JV will or could or is even close to D12 on the defensive end of the court is completely laughable..

Toronto has a nice prospect who could eventually be a 1-2 time all star in the league (primarily because the position is so thin) but please stop with the D12 comparisons...

LongWayFromHome
04-19-2013, 12:14 PM
I like how people are just assuming:

A. That Harden agreed to sign long term with the raps


Harden would have been a RFA at the end of the season. So they would have matched any offer.

LAKobeBryant
04-19-2013, 12:15 PM
If harden came to Toronto I think he can lure KD to Toronto when his contract is done since Toronto is KD first choice city. And I really think KD rather play with harden then Westbrook.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:15 PM
Jonas's numbers per 36 minutes were shy 2 rebounds of Dwight Howards rookie year and the kid is completely unselfish was much skinnier and didn't get as many touches as D12 did so I don't know where you are making your comparisons from.

Also other GM's around the league would disagree with you on your ceiling predictions of Jonas... Maybe you know more than them though...



http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog/category/ed-stefanski/

And Nikola Vucevic's per36 rebounding was better than rookie Dwight. I don't get the point you're trying to make. Would you like me to find you the countless articles on what GMs thought of Harden after statistically the 2nd best season ever by a 6th man?

I am not saying Jonas doesn't have solid upside and I'm not saying he isn't going to become a top quality player but if you have a chance at trading him straight up for Harden AND Harden is willing to extend long term you absolutely make that deal. You'd be better right away and down the line.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:16 PM
Nikola Vucevic rookie per36 12.4, 10.9 and 1.5.

I'd trade him AND Evan for Harden 10 times out of 10.

You are neglecting the part that I said him and D12 are completely different players and again JV is playing against the other teams best players in the league like D12 in his rookie year.

Much better comparison don't you think?

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:17 PM
And Nikola Vucevic's per36 rebounding was better than rookie Dwight. I don't get the point you're trying to make. Would you like me to find you the countless articles on what GMs thought of Harden after statistically the 2nd best season ever by a 6th man?

I am not saying Jonas doesn't have solid upside and I'm not saying he isn't going to become a top quality player but if you have a chance at trading him straight up for Harden AND Harden is willing to extend long term you absolutely make that deal. You'd be better right away and down the line.

I like how after each post you keep ASSUMING the deal was straight up and you keep ASSUMING that Harden would sign here.

:facepalm:

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:19 PM
Bosh is an American as I said earlier most American players only want to play in the USA . Jonas is not from the USA so he will have no problem resigning with the Raptors .

Bosh actually re-signed with the Raptors. When they did a crap job of supporting him he did the right thing and bolted. Really had nothing to do with where he was from.

We've seen Euros hold drafting teams to ransom since they wanted to go to the bigger market franchises rather than play for teams who aren't. This idea that because Jonas isn't from the US he'd sign long term is foolish.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:20 PM
Harden would have been a RFA at the end of the season. So they would have matched any offer.

Do you think that's a really good idea to have a disgruntled player who doesn't want to be here and force him to stay... Makes me think of Eric Gordon when they matched his offer and that turned out really well for NO.

Right?!?

Vinylman
04-19-2013, 12:22 PM
Drummond played most of his minutes coming off the bench and playing against opposing teams second units. Stats can be deceiving sometimes.

JV started in the majority of his games played, playing against the opposing teams best players.

myth... people said the same **** about Harden last year... again, both are good young prospect...JV is ahead of Drummond at this point on the offensive end... that gap will shrink over time...

the defensive end isn't even close and never will be

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:22 PM
How did Bynum turn out for ya? LOL

I told you the Sixers got raped when they traded away Iggy for nothing...

Back on topic, at the time I would have done the deal for Harden but seeing Val play the way he has lately Im happy with the decision to keep him... At the very least his knees are still solid :D

Bynum trade worked out great. He didn't play a game this season so as a result our organization saved money (Bynum insurance) that they would have had to spend on Iggy. So instead of him having a great season us resigning him for 5 years 90 mil + and he stays on being injured in each of those years we save ourselves the time effort and money and now have the cap room to make a pitch at a couple reasonable FA.

We didn't get raped, even in hindsight we weren't raped. It was the right move to make.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:24 PM
I like how after each post you keep ASSUMING the deal was straight up and you keep ASSUMING that Harden would sign here.

:facepalm:

Have you been unable to comprehend. I SAID THAT. I SAID THAT I AM ASKING THIS QUESTION WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE DEAL IS STRAIGHT UP AND HARDEN EXTENDS.

That's the discussion I've been having from the start. Either way you take it Harden would have been an UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT. You know what that means right?

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:25 PM
You are neglecting the part that I said him and D12 are completely different players and again JV is playing against the other teams best players in the league like D12 in his rookie year.

Much better comparison don't you think?

Nope. We have the evidence based on Vuc's season with Orlando that his per36 #s were quite accurate, and even knowing that we'd still trade him for Harden.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:26 PM
I always get such a kick out of the bolded... find one irrelevant example of how a guy compares to the best at his position in the league and somehow that guy is in the same league as a D12...

Unfortunately, the comparison should never be year 1 it should always be each player at the same age which means they aren't even close... second, the idea That JV will or could or is even close to D12 on the defensive end of the court is completely laughable..

Toronto has a nice prospect who could eventually be a 1-2 time all star in the league (primarily because the position is so thin) but please stop with the D12 comparisons...

Never compared the players just there stats... See my original post in this thread I said the were completely different players.

Thanks :D

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:27 PM
Do you think that's a really good idea to have a disgruntled player who doesn't want to be here and force him to stay... Makes me think of Eric Gordon when they matched his offer and that turned out really well for NO.

Right?!?

Wait a minute. Aren't you the same guy who spoke of assumptions. This is the biggest assumption of them all to think that Harden would be disgruntled and not want to sign on.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Nope. We have the evidence based on Vuc's season with Orlando that his per36 #s were quite accurate, and even knowing that we'd still trade him for Harden.

So his numbers are equal because he's not playing against the opposing teams best player.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight! Good post!

bucketss
04-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Bosh actually re-signed with the Raptors. When they did a crap job of supporting him he did the right thing and bolted. Really had nothing to do with where he was from.

We've seen Euros hold drafting teams to ransom since they wanted to go to the bigger market franchises rather than play for teams who aren't. This idea that because Jonas isn't from the US he'd sign long term is foolish.

he actually admitted he hated toronto when first got here, and hated the fact that he was never on national tv, he was happy signing with miami and finally being "seen" and also playing in the u.s. he only resigned because he was restricted not much of a choice for him.

Vinylman
04-19-2013, 12:30 PM
+1

Playing against 2nd units/ 2nd string centers would make your stats look a little inflated... Playing against D12, Cousins, Horford, Garnett... etc and averaging JV's numbers is a much different story.

LMFAO... to lazy to look them all up but he only played 1 of the 2 games against the lakers and only played 16 minutes in that game... I have to assume that it was either against D12 or Gasol so lets give him full credit

Drummond on the other hand played 45 minutes in two games against the Lakers this year against either D12 or Gasol....

like I said, to lazy to look up the rest but it is obvious your point is hollow

Vinylman
04-19-2013, 12:32 PM
Never compared the players just there stats... See my original post in this thread I said the were completely different players.

Thanks :D

I could care less what was in your first post... what I quoted is pretty straightforward... you compared JV to D12 ... again, that is laughable

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:32 PM
Harden would have been a RFA at the end of the season. So they would have matched any offer.


Do you think that's a really good idea to have a disgruntled player who doesn't want to be here and force him to stay... Makes me think of Eric Gordon when they matched his offer and that turned out really well for NO.

Right?!?


Nope. We have the evidence based on Vuc's season with Orlando that his per36 #s were quite accurate, and even knowing that we'd still trade him for Harden.

Yes I am and yes I responded to this original post...

Problem :D

I don't know if he wanted to resign or not, I don't know what other factors were involved in this deal but if he did not want to come to Toronto I would not want to force him to stay through RFA.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:33 PM
So his numbers are equal because he's not playing against the opposing teams best player.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight! Good post!

That post just flew completely over you head didn't it... :laugh: and I thought I wrote in laments terms. :shrug:

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:35 PM
I could care less what was in your first post... what I quoted is pretty straightforward... you compared JV to D12 ... again, that is laughable

Again I said they were completely different players your ability to read and quote posts is what I'm finding laughable

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:36 PM
That post just flew completely over you head didn't it... :laugh: and I thought I wrote in laments terms. :shrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJL4Y3aGPuA

Gators123
04-19-2013, 12:39 PM
You are neglecting the part that I said him and D12 are completely different players and again JV is playing against the other teams best players in the league like D12 in his rookie year.

Much better comparison don't you think?

So then whats your beef with Drummond?

Drummond as a starter-

11.1 PPG (67% FG)
8.2 RPG

1.2 SPG
1.1 BPG
0.7 APG

25 MPG

Jonas as a starter-

9.4 PPG (54% FG)
6.1 RPG

0.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
0.8 APG

25 MPG

Val is older and has been playing pro basketball since 08

And since some Raptor fans love PER 36 stats, Drummond is averaging almost 14 PPG, 13 RPG , and 3 BPG per 36 minutes :)

Tmath
04-19-2013, 12:41 PM
Bynum trade worked out great. He didn't play a game this season so as a result our organization saved money (Bynum insurance) that they would have had to spend on Iggy. So instead of him having a great season us resigning him for 5 years 90 mil + and he stays on being injured in each of those years we save ourselves the time effort and money and now have the cap room to make a pitch at a couple reasonable FA.

We didn't get raped, even in hindsight we weren't raped. It was the right move to make.

Dude, Philly got raped in that trade. There is no justifying it. You guys lost a solid C prospect and Harkless.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 12:41 PM
So then whats your beef with Drummond?

Drummond as a starter-

11.1 PPG (67% FG)
8.2 RPG

1.2 SPG
1.1 BPG
0.7 APG

25 MPG

Jonas as a starter-

9.4 PPG (54% FG)
6.1 RPG

0.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
0.8 APG

25 MPG

And Val is older and has been playing pro basketball since 08

Since some Raptor fans love PER 36 stars, Drummond is averaging almost 14, 13, and 3 BPG per 36 minutes :)

And Drummond played against who? Jonas was our starter the entire year also I have no beef with Drummond i wanted to draft him instead of Ross though at the moment I'm not really that upset right now... I'd rather wait and see with Ross as he has lots of upside.

b@llhog24
04-19-2013, 12:44 PM
Chandler changed the whole culture of that team defensively and was probably the 2nd most important person on that championship squad so no I don't think they relate.

Nobody said he's as good as Chandler, just that they have a lot of similarities game-wise. Also Drummound's defensive potential is higher than Chandlers peak imo.


Harden was seen by the majority of fans that he was going to be a bonafide star? That is news to me...

And it is news. The majority of fans use hindsight to back up their arguments

Because from I remember there was a lot of talk doubting Harden's ability to LEAD a team. There was the theory that Harden was effective because he had 2 of the league's top scorers in Durant and Westbrook

Look at Boston. Rondo is a top PG, but the argument was that Garnett and Pierce made him look better. Down goes Rondo and Boston becomes relevant. The same argument was said about Harden. It could've went either way but people are speaking in hindsight

and hindsight trumps All!

You're right to an extent, but I was arguing that Harden was gonna be a superstar and many other posters.


Parker, Westbrook, Rose, Love, Rose, Wade, are all better for me. But two of them were hurt all year basically. Dwight will probably regain his top 5 spot next season if healthy as well. Harden just forces it too much many times against good teams, and is a poor defender currently. I do think he continues his climb. There are a couple guys (Love being one of them), that are probably never going to climb much higher, but Harden isn't one of them.

Which is till less than 10. So like I said 8-9ish and I disagree, he can and should improve with better help around him, an actual training camp, and just experience overall. I refuse to believe he'll always be "inconsistent." This also isn't factoring that guys like Wade and Parker are getting up there in years.


All you guys keep saying he can become a top 3 C. We already know Dwight is one, Cousins ceiling is much higher, Drummond's is as well then you have Monroe, Asik, Gasol, Lopez, Noah, Pekovic and maybe by some miracle Bynum. Don't see Jonas being that much better than any of those guys.

Yea, people always talk about the C position being depleted but don't realize that there is great depth at the C spot. Just not dominant big man in the Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem mold

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:45 PM
Dude, Philly got raped in that trade. There is no justifying it. You guys lost a solid C prospect and Harkless.

It hurts to lose Vuc would much rather have him going forward but when you have a chance to trade for a franchise quality player you do it 10 out of 10 times. Things didn't work out doesn't mean that we got raped.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 12:48 PM
So then whats your beef with Drummond?

Drummond as a starter-

11.1 PPG (67% FG)
8.2 RPG

1.2 SPG
1.1 BPG
0.7 APG

25 MPG

Jonas as a starter-

9.4 PPG (54% FG)
6.1 RPG

0.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
0.8 APG

25 MPG

Val is older and has been playing pro basketball since 08

And since some Raptor fans love PER 36 stats, Drummond is averaging almost 14 PPG, 13 RPG , and 3 BPG per 36 minutes :)

You are only showing the stats you want people to see.

TheIlladelph16
04-19-2013, 12:52 PM
What if donkeys can fly...

Try a better arguement thanks!

You literally said "Someone would have to convince me on why he would leave when the time comes". Convincing someone why he would leave (or even stay for that matter) is based on an entirely hypothetical/what if premise because IT HASN'T ****ING HAPPENED YET.

Thank you for confirming your just your either a child still in high school or your just that stupid.


Your logic here could directly be assessed towards Harden, you know that right?

We just came off a 23-43 season, you think Harden would've been more likely to re-sign now in Toronto than in 3-4 yrs down the road when JV is due up for an extension?

I don't disagree with you on that point. See my above response to him, but the statement HE posed was "Someone would have to convince me on why he would leave when the time comes." I gave him a scenario in which Jonas would probably leave, and he responded with "what if donkeys can fly... and I were actually smart".

The point is that not one of us know what he will do when he hits FA, so its absolutely ludicrous to say that he will stay because he isn't ****ing born in America. Reading this thread has just made me angry at his nonsense.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 12:54 PM
You are only showing the stats you want people to see.

What would you rather he show? His vastly superior PER, WS, WS/48 and the fact that he averaged 22.5 points 20.3 rebounds per 36 when he was matched up against Val this season? Or the fact that Val averaged just averaged just 4.5 rebounds per36 against him albeit he scorer quite well getting 18 points per36.

I Rock Shaqs
04-19-2013, 12:57 PM
Why would Raptors pay Harden a max and then also have Derozan whos getting 10M. Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar. Obviously in hindsight, this is an easy deal.

Its easy to be a GM in hindsight right?...........

Well he doesn't start making 9.5 million until next year.

John Walls Era
04-19-2013, 12:57 PM
Yeah I really want Drummond. Hes such a potential beast. Anthony Randolph was such a potential beast too!

And yeah Raps should've done this, but hindsights a *****.

John Walls Era
04-19-2013, 12:59 PM
Derozan ain't getting paid 10 mil a year get ya facts straight bruh.

bruh. dont talk to me unless you know what you're talking about. did u see the extension?

I Rock Shaqs
04-19-2013, 01:02 PM
So then whats your beef with Drummond?

Drummond as a starter-

11.1 PPG (67% FG)
8.2 RPG

1.2 SPG
1.1 BPG
0.7 APG

25 MPG

Jonas as a starter-

9.4 PPG (54% FG)
6.1 RPG

0.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
0.8 APG

25 MPG

Val is older and has been playing pro basketball since 08

And since some Raptor fans love PER 36 stats, Drummond is averaging almost 14 PPG, 13 RPG , and 3 BPG per 36 minutes :)

Lol I screamed and through **** when they didn't draft Drummond, Ross sucks. But JV is going to be better than Drummond in a couple years anyways.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 01:05 PM
You guys want to know what's so comedic about this Andre Drummond not being good offensively debate and Jonas is so much better. When Jonas is on the floor the Raptors scores 4.8 less points per 48, 2 less rebounds per 48 and a -5.3. Conversely when Drummond is on the floor the Pistons average 4.6 more points per 48 and have a +6.3 offensive rating.

I guess despite being raw and unpolished Drummond is doesn't something or somethings to make his team better offensive when he's on the floor. That ladies and gents is what you call IMPACT.

John Walls Era
04-19-2013, 01:08 PM
You guys want to know what's so comedic about this Andre Drummond not being good offensively debate and Jonas is so much better. When Jonas is on the floor the Raptors scores 4.8 less points per 48, 2 less rebounds per 48 and a -5.3. Conversely when Drummond is on the floor the Pistons average 4.6 more points per 48 and have a +6.3 offensive rating.

I guess despite being raw and unpolished Drummond is doesn't something or somethings to make his team better offensive when he's on the floor. That ladies and gents is what you call IMPACT.

Actually that might be the first time where I buy something crediting Drummond's O. I actually can admit that Drummond might have more impact on offense than people give him credit for. A good point. But could be due to variance since small sample size.

C_Mund
04-19-2013, 01:10 PM
If BC gave up everything for Harden and he produced like a Rudy Gay or somebody that's good but not franchise good, he'd have been crucified. It was a risk/reward deal that he wasn't comfortable with. In hindsight.... 100% I make that trade but it's not like JV sucks and we screwed up and we'll never recover.

I hate people saying what WILL happen. Honestly, we kept a great prospect that may turn out to be a cornerstone kind of guy. I honestly hope he can be a 20/12 guy with great %'s, an upper-echelon shot blocker and he may develop into a really good help defender as well. He's still learning the North American game, which he's brand new to despite years of playing pro.

I can see both sides of the argument. I think we messed up by not making the trade but it's only a dilemma because both players have the potential to be either good or great.

I Rock Shaqs
04-19-2013, 01:12 PM
You guys want to know what's so comedic about this Andre Drummond not being good offensively debate and Jonas is so much better. When Jonas is on the floor the Raptors scores 4.8 less points per 48, 2 less rebounds per 48 and a -5.3. Conversely when Drummond is on the floor the Pistons average 4.6 more points per 48 and have a +6.3 offensive rating.

I guess despite being raw and unpolished Drummond is doesn't something or somethings to make his team better offensive when he's on the floor. That ladies and gents is what you call IMPACT.

Man I'd get his jersey if Detroit Jersey's weren't so *** looking.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 01:13 PM
Actually that might be the first time where I buy something crediting Drummond's O. I actually can admit that Drummond might have more impact on offense than people give him credit for. A good point. But could be due to variance since small sample size.

Sure, but it can also be due to his ability to score so efficiently from the floor when he's one (may not have the variety but more times than not when he shoots/dunks/layups it scores) and his top calibre offensive rebounding. He is able to keep possessions alive and forces opposing teams to throw a body or two on him thus helping his team as a whole get more offensive rebounds. His team also averages 2.6 more offensive rebounds with him on the floor than when he isn't.

Tmath
04-19-2013, 01:15 PM
You guys want to know what's so comedic about this Andre Drummond not being good offensively debate and Jonas is so much better. When Jonas is on the floor the Raptors scores 4.8 less points per 48, 2 less rebounds per 48 and a -5.3. Conversely when Drummond is on the floor the Pistons average 4.6 more points per 48 and have a +6.3 offensive rating.

I guess despite being raw and unpolished Drummond is doesn't something or somethings to make his team better offensive when he's on the floor. That ladies and gents is what you call IMPACT.

Only the future knows what kind of impact each player will have on their teams going forward. Its going be fun to find to watch though.

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 01:15 PM
Man I'd get his jersey if Detroit Jersey's weren't so *** looking.

I remember dreaming that he'd some how free fall to us at 15 or better yet that we traded up to get him. :(

North Yorker
04-19-2013, 01:15 PM
We've seen absolute head cases become NBA Champion HOFers. Even with all his crazy actions he's one of the most gifted big men in the game today.
Not questioning his physical talent, but his mental issues can certainly get in the way of him reaching his potential, especially if he displays conduct detrimental to his team like he has shown in the past. I remember reading how he leads the league in both personal and technical fouls over the last few seasons. That and his conduct cannot be ignored when projecting his future.



And his defensive upside is more valuable than anything Val brings to the table. Would you take Brad Daugherty over Ben Wallace?

I believe JV will become the better overall (2-way) player in comparison to Drummond because his deficiencies are easier to correct than Drummonds' imo. I also believe that the more two-way players you have starting in your lineup, the more success your team will have. Wallace and the Pistons are the rare exception to the rule where his team made up for his offensive liabilities.



Fair enough but as it stands right now he's a better C and touted to be better going forward than Val. You never know one can be traded or sign elsewhere and both end up playing the C.

Well until that happens, I will consider him a PF.



And he'd still be better defensively than Val.
He very well could be, but I'm willing to bet the gap will be much smaller in 3 yrs time.




Defensively Val doesn't hold a candle to Asik and as a rebounder he isn't going to be better either. Asik while not being as polished offensively he's still valuable with his put backs and offensive rebounding. He can still hurt you greatly offensively if you don't throw two bodies on him.

Currently, yes, but considering 1 is fully developed at 26 and JV is 20, I dont see why JV will not become a good defender considering his tools, work ethic, and effort on that end of the court. I dont think you would disagree that he projects to be a better two way player than Asik.




Question did you watch Lopez play this past season. His defense was improved quite a lot. Both on the ball and protecting the rim.

His blocks and ppp on isolation plays were both better this year. He is still a below average rebounder and JV despite being 5 yrs younger and 10-12 lbs lighter was better on post defense.



Since when being the strongest player in the NBA is a concern? :confused:
Big men who play at 290 lbs and above tend to not age well.



Neither does Al Jefferson and he tied his career high in points and had maybe the best game of his career 4 days ago. You don't need cartilage in your knees to play basketball.
It certainly helps though. And I don't need to elaborate on Bynum's injury history to prove it either.



But you see reason why all those other players can't be top 3 Cs? Interesting isn't that?
JV could obviously flame out like any other big man in the league, but I've seen enough of him to know that he has very high potential and the work ethic and tools to match. He put on 26 lbs the last 1.5-2 yrs and will continue to get bigger and better. He already has a great foundation of skills to build upon and I would say he is ahead in development compared to most NBA centers in their age 20 season.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 01:16 PM
You literally said "Someone would have to convince me on why he would leave when the time comes". Convincing someone why he would leave (or even stay for that matter) is based on an entirely hypothetical/what if premise because IT HASN'T ****ING HAPPENED YET.

Thank you for confirming your just your either a child still in high school or your just that stupid.



I don't disagree with you on that point. See my above response to him, but the statement HE posed was "Someone would have to convince me on why he would leave when the time comes." I gave him a scenario in which Jonas would probably leave, and he responded with "what if donkeys can fly... and I were actually smart".

The point is that not one of us know what he will do when he hits FA, so its absolutely ludicrous to say that he will stay because he isn't ****ing born in America. Reading this thread has just made me angry at his nonsense.

You're response was what if the Raptors f***ing suck so yes I responded with my own what if...

Correct!

Gators123
04-19-2013, 01:16 PM
Only the future knows what kind of impact each player will have on their teams going forward. Its going be fun to find to watch though.

:nod: I can agree with this.

mdm692
04-19-2013, 01:18 PM
My beef with your statement is that he IS averaging 15 and 10 next year as if its fact. Dude lets just wait for him to develop before acting as if it already happen. In the games in which he played 30+ minutes this season he averaged 13 and 8 and per36 he averaged 13 and 9 quite honestly as decent as that may be that isn't even top 20 C #s in a weak C league. Harden will be the best SG in the game in a couple years and automatically makes any offense loads better. I know you got your bias because JC is your dude and you understand your GMs POV but trading for Harden is a no brainer even with DeRozan on board.

Those are Gortat #'s lol. They could of easily moved Valenciunas for Harden and then flip DeRozan for Gortat.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 01:25 PM
Different from what you said at first



This makes it seem like its because the player is significantly younger and has his whole prime versus somebody who is half way through their prime... like if HOU rejected MIA offering Wade for Harden. That rejection would be because Harden is young. I don't think the Raptors turned down the trade because JV was young compared to Harden, there was obviously more to it than that.

I never once said Harden wasn't young. I said he was established, which he is. Just because you assume stuff doesn't mean it's right.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 01:26 PM
:nod: I can agree with this.

Me as well...

My apologies for disrespecting Drummond... The heat was a little hot in here... I'll say again for a 2nd time I wanted B.C to draft this guy instead of Ross (though I'm not overly upset at the moment) but everyone agrees he has tons of upside as well.

Well let the future tell!

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 01:28 PM
Those are Gortat #'s lol. They could of easily moved Valenciunas for Harden and then flip DeRozan for Gortat.

You're a Suns fan do you think they make that deal given the players they currently have on their roster and what Gortat meant to it at the beginning of the season.

mdm692
04-19-2013, 01:33 PM
You're a Suns fan do you think they make that deal given the players they currently have on their roster and what Gortat meant to it at the beginning of the season.

We desperately need/needed a go to guy at either the SG or SF position so I think so. They were willing to trade Gortat to OKC for Harden but Presti chose the Rockets so I think yeah they make it. Specially after striking out on Gordon.

TyrionLannister
04-19-2013, 01:34 PM
Fail

Swashcuff
04-19-2013, 01:55 PM
Not questioning his physical talent, but his mental issues can certainly get in the way of him reaching his potential, especially if he displays conduct detrimental to his team like he has shown in the past. I remember reading how he leads the league in both personal and technical fouls over the last few seasons. That and his conduct cannot be ignored when projecting his future.

I understand and appreciate all of that. My point that even with those issues he is/can be extremely productive to any team he's on.


I believe JV will become the better overall (2-way) player in comparison to Drummond because his deficiencies are easier to correct than Drummonds' imo. I also believe that the more two-way players you have starting in your lineup, the more success your team will have. Wallace and the Pistons are the rare exception to the rule where his team made up for his offensive liabilities.

Thing is though IMO Drummond's biggest problem offensively isn't his lack of post moves but rather his atrocious FT shooting. His repertoire can be worked on and from all indications he's a quick learner. He also a very efficient scorer from the field and even more efficient in his offensive value to his team. He can realistically average 16 and 14 with elite calibre D even without having the worlds most polished offensive game.


He very well could be, but I'm willing to bet the gap will be much smaller in 3 yrs time.


Agreed


Currently, yes, but considering 1 is fully developed at 26 and JV is 20, I dont see why JV will not become a good defender considering his tools, work ethic, and effort on that end of the court. I dont think you would disagree that he projects to be a better two way player than Asik.

No I wont. I'm just very high on Asik's defensive upside.


His blocks and ppp on isolation plays were both better this year. He is still a below average rebounder and JV despite being 5 yrs younger and 10-12 lbs lighter was better on post defense.

Thing is Brook is now beginning to hit his stride in improving his game. He made his team's offense and defense better when he was on the floor this season. He's a top calibre two way C and quite honestly he isn't done getting better.


Big men who play at 290 lbs and above tend to not age well.

And Pek knew that, which is exactly why he came into this past season a lot lighter and even stronger. He worked his butt off in the gym and the reports were that he lost more than 20 or so pounds by late October. If you watched him this season as compared to last you'd see the difference is the body.


It certainly helps though. And I don't need to elaborate on Bynum's injury history to prove it either.

I am not going to argue his injury history that speaks volumes on its own. Just saying that he can't be completely ruled out.


JV could obviously flame out like any other big man in the league, but I've seen enough of him to know that he has very high potential and the work ethic and tools to match. He put on 26 lbs the last 1.5-2 yrs and will continue to get bigger and better. He already has a great foundation of skills to build upon and I would say he is ahead in development compared to most NBA centers in their age 20 season.

Agreed on all this but unlike most other TOR fans in this thread at least you're admitting that despite all his upside he still isn't a sure thing. He has loads of potential and he displayed great skill last season but acting as if he's surely going to be a top big man in the game is what I was arguing against.

WAYNEBO
04-19-2013, 02:27 PM
Can't blame the Raps. JV is gonna be a legit C next year and as mentioned already they are hard to find. Gay was a consolation prize to Harden, so not a bad pass.

sep11ie
04-19-2013, 02:45 PM
Why would Raptors pay Harden a max and then also have Derozan whos getting 10M. Also no one expected Harden to become this superstar. Obviously in hindsight, this is an easy deal.

Its easy to be a GM in hindsight right?...........

I think most people expected Harden to become a superstar.

Sadds The Gr8
04-19-2013, 02:49 PM
This thread is filled with fail....even from fellow Raptor fans.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 02:50 PM
Drummond played most of his minutes coming off the bench and playing against opposing teams second units.
Whats your point? He also played alongside his own teams 2nd unit. Plz dont act like you know the statistical correlation between starting vs off the bench. Studies have shown that players actually tend play better if they get to start (and play more minutes too) than they do if they sit. Its a case by case thing, but one thing you cannot do, certainly not without any supporting evidence, is damn him for something so minor. I mean even with a minor regression


Stats can be deceiving sometimes.
Maybe in the hands of someone who doesn't quite understand them, but I need a MUCH stronger argument for why they are deceiving me here.


JV started in the majority of his games played, playing against the opposing teams best players.
And he still wasn't as productive nor did his team benefit nearly as much? Thats not helping your case IMO.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 02:53 PM
+1

Playing against 2nd units/ 2nd string centers would make your stats look a little inflated... Playing against D12, Cousins, Horford, Garnett... etc and averaging JV's numbers is a much different story.

Proof?

Jenceman
04-19-2013, 02:54 PM
Lol, and the Raptors will continue to be mired in mediocrity.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 02:55 PM
Lol 15 pages about nonsense.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 03:00 PM
Whats your point? He also played alongside his own teams 2nd unit. Plz dont act like you know the statistical correlation between starting vs off the bench. Studies have shown that players actually tend play better if they get to start (and play more minutes too) than they do if they sit. Its a case by case thing, but one thing you cannot do, certainly not without any supporting evidence, is damn him for something so minor. I mean even with a minor regression


Maybe in the hands of someone who doesn't quite understand them, but I need a MUCH stronger argument for why they are deceiving me here.


And he still wasn't as productive nor did his team benefit nearly as much? Thats not helping your case IMO.

I'm just curious on your thoughts but in the Lakers vs Spurs series do you think D12 would have better stats per min playing against the spurs 2nd unit while playing along side the lakers 2nd unit.

Basically do you think they would put up as much of a challenge to Howard as Duncan and company? Think he might dominate Bonner and company?

North Yorker
04-19-2013, 03:04 PM
I understand and appreciate all of that. My point that even with those issues he is/can be extremely productive to any team he's on.



Thing is though IMO Drummond's biggest problem offensively isn't his lack of post moves but rather his atrocious FT shooting. His repertoire can be worked on and from all indications he's a quick learner. He also a very efficient scorer from the field and even more efficient in his offensive value to his team. He can realistically average 16 and 14 with elite calibre D even without having the worlds most polished offensive game.



Agreed



No I wont. I'm just very high on Asik's defensive upside.



Thing is Brook is now beginning to hit his stride in improving his game. He made his team's offense and defense better when he was on the floor this season. He's a top calibre two way C and quite honestly he isn't done getting better.



And Pek knew that, which is exactly why he came into this past season a lot lighter and even stronger. He worked his butt off in the gym and the reports were that he lost more than 20 or so pounds by late October. If you watched him this season as compared to last you'd see the difference is the body.



I am not going to argue his injury history that speaks volumes on its own. Just saying that he can't be completely ruled out.



Agreed on all this but unlike most other TOR fans in this thread at least you're admitting that despite all his upside he still isn't a sure thing. He has loads of potential and he displayed great skill last season but acting as if he's surely going to be a top big man in the game is what I was arguing against.

For the record, I would definitely do a Harden/JV one for one swap with an extension signed, but not knowing the other details of the deal I'm not unhappy that it fell through.

No young player is a sure thing but I think that players like JV, Drummond, Anthony Davis,etc, all have extremely high trade value for a reason. If/when they reach their prime they could have just as big an impact as Harden is. Of course Harden can provide it right away but you're also paying him the max while those other guys are on rookie scale deals.

NoahH
04-19-2013, 03:06 PM
No one wanted Harden.. Wizards, Raptors, Warriors and now look at the dude

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 03:30 PM
Proof?

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278679 Garnett
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278777 Horford
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400277986 Cousins
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278645 D12

ESPN shows him starting against all of these players nevermind the other all stars on these teams... Like I said his average throughout this year is against a higher talent level.

How about you prove me otherwise and show me all the starters Drummond went up against while being more productive as you mentioned. It's fairly easy to be more productive when most of your minutes are against lesser talent.

TheIlladelph16
04-19-2013, 03:36 PM
Lol, and the Raptors will continue to be mired in mediocrity.

I mean, if the Rudy Gay trade wasn't evidence enough of that, this would probably put it over the top for me. This team is just that... mediocre... with one player who has top 5 at his position potential. Somehow not acquiring a budding superstar (which everyone except Raptors fans apparently saw) was the smart move here.

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 03:57 PM
I mean, if the Rudy Gay trade wasn't evidence enough of that, this would probably put it over the top for me. This team is just that... mediocre... with one player who has top 5 at his position potential. Somehow not acquiring a budding superstar (which everyone except Raptors fans apparently saw) was the smart move here.

Seems like you are on here just to throw mud in the faces of Raptor fans when reading some of your comments... Take a few deep breaths or something and any basketball fan on the planet wants to aquire a budding superstar on there team but it's the price is what we really don't know in this scenario. Everyone is just assuming it was a straight up deal for JV and also that Harden was signing long term here.

Too many unknowns to be throwing around your insults to an entire fanbase without knowing the facts.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-19-2013, 04:11 PM
No one wanted Harden.. Wizards, Raptors, Warriors and now look at the dude

It's not that they didn't want anything to do with Harden. Those teams just all happen to have young players with star potential.

These guys have star potential, so it's not like it's a bad deal.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 04:30 PM
I'm just curious on your thoughts but in the Lakers vs Spurs series do you think D12 would have better stats per min playing against the spurs 2nd unit while playing along side the lakers 2nd unit.
Basically do you think they would put up as much of a challenge to Howard as Duncan and company? Think he might dominate Bonner and company?

But thats just 1 isolated example, I was talking on the season as a whole. I do not deny that going up against the better defenders will suppress ones stats, but I need actual proof that one player had it exponentially harder.

Simply saying one plays on the bench tells us nothing because that often hurts a players production. Lets take a look at your next post for why I dont take your argument seriously.


http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278679 Garnett
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278777 Horford
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400277986 Cousins
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278645 D12

ESPN shows him starting against all of these players nevermind the other all stars on these teams...
I meant proof that players struggle SEASON LONG in a starting vs bench role. How come you seem to have such a strong handle on this when the studies show the opposite correlation?

Whats hilarious is that Drummond saw his stats decrease when Horford was on the bench, so he actually did most of his damage against the Hawks when Horford was in the game. Care to explain that? I thought starters = less production? LMFAO. Its not that simple guy.....

Anyways, Ill play along, but lets get more specific shall we. I'll be using the advanced stats tool NBA.com provides so bear with me.

(Season Numbers vs your specified opponents) NBA.com hasn't updated some of these matchups so I left those with zero info blank.



Val Drummond
* VS KG 13Mins 0FG%-0pts-2.8Reb 25Mins 71FG%-14.4PTS-15.8Reb
VS Cousins 14Mins 25FG%-7.7pts-7.7Reb 15Mins 75FG%-16.8PTS-19.2Reb
VS Dwight 17Mins 75FG%-25.4pts-12.7Reb 8Mins 0FG%-0PTS-9.0Reb
VS Horford NA 37Mins 70FG%-15.6PTS-11.7Reb


The KG matchup seems to be missing some minutes but even aggregate numbers dont even come close to touching what Drummond did to KG, on BOTH ends.

So according to NBA.com
Despite Drummond coming off the bench, he actually played more against Horford and Cousins (possibly KG too) and thoroughly dominated them to a degree that Val couldn't. That doesn't even mention how much better Drummond was at suppressing their stats.

The one matchup Val apparently won was against LA (Drummond barely got time against Dwight), Ill check the tape to see if Dwight was actually on Val but at least you got 1 in your favor. But KG, Cousins played more against Drummond, and he was a better 2-way player against them as well.





Like I said his average throughout this year is against a higher talent level.
Your evidence falls short of backing your opinion, if anything (based on NBA.com) your examples have hurt your argument.


How about you prove me otherwise and show me all the starters Drummond went up against while being more productive as you mentioned.
Why when studies back me, and its obviously more intricate than that? (See Horford example)


It's fairly easy to be more productive when most of your minutes are against lesser talent.
Then why do the studies suggest otherwise? Why did Drummond dominate the Hawks to a greater degree when Horford was actually in the game.

Cmon bro, just admit it. This is more intricate than your pretending to know.


If your up for it, we can collect the data ourselves from espn's PbP, see how the 2 fared vs the same counterpart.

Super.
04-19-2013, 04:32 PM
:laugh:

The Raptors have no idea what they're doing

ghettosean
04-19-2013, 04:39 PM
But thats just 1 isolated example, I was talking on the season as a whole. I do not deny that going up against the better defenders will suppress ones stats, but I need actual proof that one player had it exponentially harder.

Simply saying one plays on the bench tells us nothing because that often hurts a players production. Lets take a look at your next post for why I dont take your argument seriously.


I meant proof that players struggle SEASON LONG in a starting vs bench role. How come you seem to have such a strong handle on this when the studies show the opposite correlation?

Whats hilarious is that Drummond saw his stats decrease when Horford was on the bench, so he actually did most of his damage against the Hawks when Horford was in the game. Care to explain that? I thought starters = less production? LMFAO. Its not that simple guy.....

Anyways, Ill play along, but lets get more specific shall we. I'll be using the advanced stats tool NBA.com provides so bear with me.

(Season Numbers vs your specified opponents) NBA.com hasn't updated some of these matchups so I left those with zero info blank.



Val Drummond
* VS KG 13Mins 0FG%-0pts-2.8Reb 25Mins 71FG%-14.4PTS-15.8Reb
VS Cousins 14Mins 25FG%-7.7pts-7.7Reb 15Mins 75FG%-16.8PTS-19.2Reb
VS Dwight 17Mins 75FG%-25.4pts-12.7Reb 8Mins 0FG%-0PTS-9.0Reb
VS Horford NA 37Mins 70FG%-15.6PTS-11.7Reb


The KG matchup seems to be missing some minutes but even aggregate numbers dont even come close to touching what Drummond did to KG, on BOTH ends.

So according to NBA.com
Despite Drummond coming off the bench, he actually played more against Horford and Cousins (possibly KG too) and thoroughly dominated them to a degree that Val couldn't. That doesn't even mention how much better Drummond was at suppressing their stats.

The one matchup Val apparently won was against LA (Drummond barely got time against Dwight), Ill check the tape to see if Dwight was actually on Val but at least you got 1 in your favor. But KG, Cousins played more against Drummond, and he was a better 2-way player against them as well.





Your evidence falls short of backing your opinion, if anything (based on NBA.com) your examples have hurt your argument.


Why when studies back me, and its obviously more intricate than that? (See Horford example)


Then why do the studies suggest otherwise? Why did Drummond dominate the Hawks to a greater degree when Horford was actually in the game.

Cmon bro, just admit it. This is more intricate than your pretending to know.


If your up for it, we can collect the data ourselves from espn's PbP, see how the 2 fared vs the same counterpart.

I had never said he won all individual match ups against all stars and superstars and future hall of famers (which is what it seems your turning this into) all I said is that most of his minutes since he was the starting centre for his team is that he played against a higher talent level then Drummond. Bench players don't get most of there minutes against starters (starters get most of there minutes against other starters or top talents in the league).

JV's average for the year was against other starters for the most part... That is all I'm saying I never said once he dominated these C's in his rookie season only that his average (Pts, RB's, Blks) reflects against a higher talent level.

Legitimate
04-19-2013, 04:52 PM
As a Rap fan i'm pissed off that this deal didn't go through. BC needs to be fired, i seen enough.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 04:55 PM
I had never said he won all individual match ups against all stars and superstars and future hall of famers (which is what it seems your turning this into)
No this is strictly a comparison of how Drummond and Val performed against said competition.

Your point about starting vs not starting has already been put into question, no sense in repeating it here. Time to analyze those opinions.

TheIlladelph16
04-19-2013, 04:58 PM
Seems like you are on here just to throw mud in the faces of Raptor fans when reading some of your comments... Take a few deep breaths or something and any basketball fan on the planet wants to aquire a budding superstar on there team but it's the price is what we really don't know in this scenario. Everyone is just assuming it was a straight up deal for JV and also that Harden was signing long term here.

Too many unknowns to be throwing around your insults to an entire fanbase without knowing the facts.

Your team is mediocre... That's not throwing mud. That's a reality. The roster is clogged with bad contracts for the next few years, and they are nowhere close to contending in an already bad Eastern Conference. I'd be happy to hear an explanation as to why they aren't because my team is beyond mediocre and we finished higher than Toronto in the standings.

This was a bad decision... That is also reality. Even if that was simply the base package for Harden, beyond the concern of an extension not being on the table as well, what assets to the Raptors have that would actually hurt them to lose? Everyone on that team is expendable if it means getting a player of Harden's caliber.

If there was an extension on the table, then Colangelo and whoever is in charge of the Wizards should be laughed out of their office.

LanceUpperCut
04-19-2013, 05:06 PM
So what was the offer again, oh yeah nobody knows they just say it was Jonas for an expiring James Harden. People love to just pick out parts of a story and like to forget about the rest. Was that for Jonas plus more?, was that for Harden with an extension? Hell look at Harden after his rookie year and tell me he was that much better than Jonas after his.

mike_noodles
04-19-2013, 05:10 PM
As a Raptors fan, my heart broke a little when I read this. Classic Raptors.

Sadds The Gr8
04-19-2013, 05:27 PM
So what was the offer again, oh yeah nobody knows they just say it was Jonas for an expiring James Harden. People love to just pick out parts of a story and like to forget about the rest. Was that for Jonas plus more?, was that for Harden with an extension? Hell look at Harden after his rookie year and tell me he was that much better than Jonas after his.

Well Harden was a RFA so we'd have all the leverage. If he was a UFA then I'd 100% agree with you. I think we shouldve done this easily but I won't lose sleep over it because I really like Val. He isn't as good as Raptor fans are saying in this thread but he isn't as awful as the other fans that are talking outta their ***** and have barely watched him are saying.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 05:30 PM
Raps have reason to value a bigman, but honestly, whats the best case scenario for Val? Both in terms of numbers and defensive intangibles, do you guys see him being an elite 2-way big, All-NBA caliber, All-Star? Because to me, anything less than an All-NBA type, doesn't warrant choosing him over Harden. It was clear Harden was ready for a lead role, that much is certain.

Can Val can become as productive as Drummond is now, albeit with much more minutes? If so thats probably going to be an All-NBA guy.

LanceUpperCut
04-19-2013, 05:44 PM
Well Harden was a RFA so we'd have all the leverage. If he was a UFA then I'd 100% agree with you. I think we shouldve done this easily but I won't lose sleep over it because I really like Val. He isn't as good as Raptor fans are saying in this thread but he isn't as awful as the other fans that are talking outta their ***** and have barely watched him are saying.

Well overall I'm saying no one knows the details at all so acting like BC is an idiot for not doing something that is all hearsay is just stupid. I truly think the sky is the limit for Jonas, sure some might raps fans might overrate him and some non-raptor fans might underrate him but I love everything about his game and can't blame BC for deeming him pretty much untouchable.

LanceUpperCut
04-19-2013, 05:54 PM
Raps have reason to value a bigman, but honestly, whats the best case scenario for Val? Both in terms of numbers and defensive intangibles, do you guys see him being an elite 2-way big, All-NBA caliber, All-Star? Because to me, anything less than an All-NBA type, doesn't warrant choosing him over Harden. It was clear Harden was ready for a lead role, that much is certain.

Can Val can become as productive as Drummond is now, albeit with much more minutes? If so thats probably going to be an All-NBA guy.

Well it's not as simple as just a Jonas for Harden swap and yes Jonas can become as productive and more than Drummond. Drummond had the great start and everyone jumped on the bandwagon which was well deserved but at the same time Jonas was stuck beside a rotting Bargnani then injured for a long stretch and since his return has been nothing but spectacular well being under used by Casey, until the last month or so of the year. Lets let both Jonas and Drummond play a full sophomore year and then we will get a better picture of there futures.

Phenomenonsense
04-19-2013, 06:04 PM
Well it's not as simple as just a Jonas for Harden swap and yes Jonas can become as productive and more than Drummond. Drummond had the great start and everyone jumped on the bandwagon which was well deserved but at the same time Jonas was stuck beside a rotting Bargnani then injured for a long stretch and since his return has been nothing but spectacular well being under used by Casey, until the last month or so of the year. Lets let both Jonas and Drummond play a full sophomore year and then we will get a better picture of there futures.

Drummond was "stuck" behind Monroe, the excuse being that Moose wasn't ready to play PF, though judging by his PF numbers he obviously was, and the fact that Maxiell was a coach favorite apparently. Drummond was held back by coaching, then, injured, and then played great as a starter. Very similar situations, but Drummond has preformed better. Both have had to overcome bad coaching decisions, and both can be great in the future, but the "impact" of Drummond is ridiculous, from a fan's perspective. Drummond on the court just has a presence long since missing, and I haven't gotten that feel when I've seen JVal.

ChiSox219
04-19-2013, 06:09 PM
Drummond's ability to move without the ball is so underrated and it's what leads to so many of his easy dunks. Y'all can say he doesn't have post moves but that doesn't matter if he's consistently able to get himself open within dunking distance.

Chronz
04-19-2013, 06:11 PM
Well it's not as simple as just a Jonas for Harden swap and yes Jonas can become as productive and more than Drummond. Drummond had the great start and everyone jumped on the bandwagon which was well deserved but at the same time Jonas was stuck beside a rotting Bargnani then injured for a long stretch and since his return has been nothing but spectacular well being under used by Casey, until the last month or so of the year. Lets let both Jonas and Drummond play a full sophomore year and then we will get a better picture of there futures.

Every year that passes we will get a better picture, I can prolly buy Jonas having a comparable 2nd half, still taking Drummond right now but I could see why Harden was rejected all things considered.

kyubi256
04-19-2013, 09:33 PM
you make the trade... Houston made it because they knew they had to take a chance at a superstar. They had none and this is the closest they'd come. Look, it turned out well.

If you are a team without a star, and no chance of getting one anytime soon, you go and take that chance. Make the deal. If it flops, well too bad. But you won't get a star any other way.

Maybe they didn't make it because Harden wouldn't sign an extension with them?

gwrighter
04-19-2013, 09:35 PM
Head2Head Valanciunas outplayed Drummond.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=valanjo01&p2=drumman01

hugepatsfan
04-19-2013, 09:38 PM
Drummond was "stuck" behind Monroe, the excuse being that Moose wasn't ready to play PF, though judging by his PF numbers he obviously was, and the fact that Maxiell was a coach favorite apparently. Drummond was held back by coaching, then, injured, and then played great as a starter. Very similar situations, but Drummond has preformed better. Both have had to overcome bad coaching decisions, and both can be great in the future, but the "impact" of Drummond is ridiculous, from a fan's perspective. Drummond on the court just has a presence long since missing, and I haven't gotten that feel when I've seen JVal.

Well who can argue with facts like that...

Rammix
04-19-2013, 09:41 PM
Head2Head Valanciunas outplayed Drummond.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=valanjo01&p2=drumman01

yeah..Jval shot .01% better in fg's, got 3 more points, and .2 rebounds more and averaged 13 more minutes?

Phenomenonsense
04-19-2013, 09:43 PM
Well who can argue with facts like that...

The facts Chronz has been throwing out don't seem to have much of an effect on you guys anyway. Look at the guy who just said JVal outplayed Drummond head to head. That **** is laughable. Maybe if you started using facts and not "JVal is going to be top 3 C in the league yeayayayyayaayaa" I would care more about bringing my own facts to the argument?

gwrighter
04-19-2013, 09:45 PM
yeah..Jval shot .01% better in fg's, got 3 more points, and .2 rebounds more and averaged 13 more minutes?

3blks to Drummond's 0.8.

Val was playing as good defensively as he was offensively.