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FOBolous
04-09-2013, 07:25 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9139710/nba-player-rankings-no-8-james-harden

as a Rockets fan, of course i agree. what does everyone else think?

LAKobeBryant
04-09-2013, 07:28 PM
you can see what i think here
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?813452-ESPN-Player-Rankings-Melo-9-Tony-Parker-7

D-Leethal
04-09-2013, 07:30 PM
ESPN has been way off on every single prediction regarding Knicks and/or Melo this year, so this is no surprise.

I like Harden and really have him and Melo neck and neck, so I'm not mad if anyone thinks Harden is better, he very well could be. Blake Griffin is a complete travesty though, Melo at #17 before this season was a complete joke and this just makes me laugh:
http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2012/story/_/id/8517191/2012-13-nba-predictions-atlantic-division-champion

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 07:31 PM
This year they got it right with one glaring flaw. They have Kyrie at 12 ahead of a couple better all around players including Griffin and Marc Gasol. Kyrie is a pure scorer on a terrible team with the green light and an uptempo system. Sure he's going to be a superstar here shortly but RIGHT NOW he's not even close to the top 10. More like 15-20.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 07:33 PM
ESPN has been way off on every single prediction regarding Knicks and/or Melo this year, so this is no surprise.

I like Harden and really have him and Melo neck and neck, so I'm not mad if anyone thinks Harden is better, he very well could be. Blake Griffin is a complete travesty though, Melo at #17 before this season was a complete joke and this just makes me laugh:
http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2012/story/_/id/8517191/2012-13-nba-predictions-atlantic-division-champion

I hope you're not saying Griffin at 13 or 14 is a problem. If anything he should be 1-2 spots higher. PER 36 numbers of 21/10/4 with significantly improved defense, jumper, post game and free throw shooting. Great all around efficiency. Surprised reduced minutes+shots confuses so many people :rolleyes:.

D-Leethal
04-09-2013, 07:33 PM
Wade should not be #6 thats for sure.

D-Leethal
04-09-2013, 07:36 PM
I hope you're not saying Griffin at 13 or 14 is a problem. If anything he should be 1-2 spots higher. PER 36 numbers of 21/10/4 with significantly improved defense, jumper, post game and free throw shooting. Great all around efficiency. Surprised reduced minutes+shots confuses so many people :rolleyes:.

I said that before I read the article. Last year ESPN ranked Griffin > Melo everywhere, and even like a week ago they had a Griffin vs Melo article out.

I wasn't even looking at his numbers, Griffin has nice stats but he can't carry a team like Melo can. If he doesn't have a prime PG and hes the focus of the defense he doesn't have much game and hes not taking you very far. He has too many deficiencies in his skillset.

Put the efficiency stats down and you think Griffin has JR Smith, Felton and Chandler winning 50-55 games?

Chronz
04-09-2013, 07:36 PM
Melo vs Blake is a better comparison than Harden vs Melo.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Water is wet.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 07:38 PM
Melo being ranked 17th last year was his own fault.

John Walls Era
04-09-2013, 07:41 PM
Really tough to choose from. I think I'll go Melo now, but Harden long term.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 07:42 PM
I said that before I read the article. Last year ESPN ranked Griffin > Melo everywhere, and even like a week ago they had a Griffin vs Melo article out.

Griffin has nice stats but he can't carry a team like Melo can. If he doesn't have a prime PG and hes the focus of the defense he doesn't have much game and hes not taking you very far. He has too many deficiencies in his skillset.

I'm not saying Melo vs Griffin. I'm saying Kyrie Irving ranking 12 ahead of a few better all around players is ********. I know it's a bit of a tangent no doubt but I was critiquing the list in general. For Melo vs Griffin... I think in general in terms of skills+production it's debatable because Griffin's a better rebounder, passer and defender. That being said Melo scores a whopping 10+ ppg more and has proven he can lead a team deep in the playoffs as the first option which is invaluable.

So in other words.. Melo>Griffin this year but going forward I'd take Griffin no question.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 07:43 PM
Also Melo>Harden. Melo's clearly a better scorer despite shooting significantly less free throws. He's also a better rebounder and defender than Harden who's arguably the worst defensive star in the entire league. Harden's only advantages are efficiency and passing. Give me scoring, rebounding and defense from my wing player.

Tony_Starks
04-09-2013, 07:45 PM
Harding over Melo? THIS season? They done lost they damn mind!

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 07:50 PM
Also Melo>Harden. Melo's clearly a better scorer despite shooting significantly less free throws. He's also a better rebounder and defender than Harden who's arguably the worst defensive star in the entire league. Harden's only advantages are efficiency and passing. Give me scoring, rebounding and defense from my wing player.

Neither are great defenders, while Harden is the better overall offensive player. Harden has also been more durable, is playing with overall lesser talent and fits better in a team concept of basketball due to his distribution and off ball skills.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 07:57 PM
Neither are great defenders, while Harden is the better overall offensive player. Harden has also been more durable, is playing with overall lesser talent and fits better in a team concept of basketball due to his distribution and off ball skills.

Harden is NOT the better offensive player, PERIOD. He gets to the line twice as much and STILL scores 2.5 ppg less. Melo is easily the more unstoppable and versatile scorer. Yes I understand Harden's more efficient in terms of percentages.

This reminds me of when people compared David Lee's and Griffin's defense this year and acted like "Oh they both aren't excellent defenders, so they must be equal" which is a complete sh** argument. Harden's an ATROCIOUS defender to the point to where Rockets fans readily admit his D is sh**. Melo on the other hand is an average or slightly below average defender who's proven when he locks in he can play excellent D (see the 2009 WCF).

Harden is the perfect guy for the new stat age where people analyze with numbers but forgot to factor in intangibles and rank things accordingly. Go around the NBA and ask every coach and player who's better and I'm 100 percent sure at least 70+ percent say Melo without thinking.

Give me the guy that can score 35+ any given night with under 5 free throw attempts and is clutch as hell... over the guy who needs 15 free throws to score 30.

Scoring= Melo
Rebounding=Melo
Defense=Melo
Passing=Harden

Melo wins 3 of the 4 main categories of basketball.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 07:58 PM
Also Melo>Harden. Melo's clearly a better scorer despite shooting significantly less free throws. He's also a better rebounder and defender than Harden who's arguably the worst defensive star in the entire league. Harden's only advantages are efficiency and passing. Give me scoring, rebounding and defense from my wing player.

Thing is Melo doesn't really provide that much of a defensive difference than Harden to make up for his elite play making at the 2 guard and his ability to take opposing players out of the game by getting them into foul trouble at the rate in which he does. Really the rebounding as well isn't that much of a difference. Melo isn't elite at his position in terms of rebounding nor defense.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:01 PM
Thing is Melo doesn't really provide that much of a defensive difference than Harden to make up for his elite play making at the 2 guard and his ability to take opposing players out of the game by getting them into foul trouble at the rate in which he does. Really the rebounding as well isn't that much of a difference. Melo isn't elite at his position in terms of rebounding nor defense.

Can't use refs double standards against or for a player. Melo is a bruiser who refs let get beat the fu** up and Harden although strong flops like a fish and goes down if you clap at him, so refs baby him more than any player in the NBA this year, even more so than ex teammate Durant. Like I said.. if they were reffed equally this wouldn't even be a discussion because Melo would be putting up 32 ppg.

In otherwords.. drawing fouls is a weak thing to compare in this scenario. Sure there is value of refs protecting certain players but that doesn't make the player better, it just means they will get away with more or be pampered. Melo's nearly 7 rpg is absolutely elite for a SF and is at the top with Lebron last I checked for his position.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:08 PM
Harden is NOT the better offensive player, PERIOD.

Heck of an argument.


He gets to the line twice as much and STILL scores 2.5 ppg less. Melo is easily the more unstoppable and versatile scorer. Yes I understand Harden's more efficient but as one dimensional as Melo seems, Harden is even more so.

You do realize that if Harden took the same amount of shots Melo took, he'd score more points right? Are you trying to say that he can't a couple of extra touches?


Not to mention the Knicks are a significantly stronger all around team than the Rockets with Melo as the undisputed go to guy.

What's this supposed to prove again?


This reminds me of when people compared David Lee's and Griffin's defense this year and acted like "Oh they both aren't excellent defenders, so they must be equal" which is a complete sh** argument. Harden's an ATROCIOUS defender to the point to where Rockets fans readily admit his D is sh**. Melo on the other hand is an average or slightly below average defender who's proven when he locks in he can play excellent D (see the 2009 WCF).

Nuggets fans and Knick fans alike and causal Nba observers regularly call out Melo on his D. Just cause you're trying harder doesn't necessarily mean that your a great defender. See: Luis Scola. And I never stated who was a better defender than another, all I'm saying is the difference is negligible enough to not make your argument there.


Harden is the perfect guy for the new stat age where people analyze with numbers but forgot to factor in intangibles and rank things accordingly. Go around the NBA and ask every coach and player who's better and I'm 100 percent sure at least 70+ percent say Melo without thinking.

So why was Harden ranked over Melo? We had a thread in here the other day about who's better or something to that effect, Melo got SMOKED in the polls by non analytic and analytic fans alike. It's not just an analytic thing, the stats just confirm what we're watching in real time. Also the last part of your post is a baseless assumption.


Give me the guy that can score 35+ any given night with under 5 free throw attempts and is clutch as hell... over the guy who needs 15 free throws to score 30.

Don't care who you'd take, only about reality. But keep living in this imaginary world where Harden regularly gets under 5 free throws a game. Also Harden has been clutch as **** this season and the last so I'm not sure where you're getting the misconception from that he's not clutch.

lamzoka
04-09-2013, 08:08 PM
At least they think he's top 10

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:09 PM
]

Scoring= Melo
Rebounding=Melo
Defense=Melo
Passing=Harden

Melo wins 3 of the 4 main categories of basketball.

Couple of years ago, you could've done this same breakdown between Iggy and KD. But nobody would say that Iggy is better than KD.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:10 PM
Harden is NOT the better offensive player, PERIOD. He gets to the line twice as much and STILL scores 2.5 ppg less. Melo is easily the more unstoppable and versatile scorer. Yes I understand Harden's more efficient in terms of percentages.

Well when you play on a team in which you are required to carry less of an offensive load you're going to score less PPG. Had Amar'e been the player of old no way Melo would be scoring as much as he has.

Don't know about Harden being an offensive player PERIOD when he's 7th in the NBA in steals per game and plays in a system in which defense really isn't going to feature prominanlty. I mean Asik looked like a DPOY contender on the


This reminds me of when people compared David Lee's and Griffin's defense this year and acted like "Oh they both aren't excellent defenders, so they must be equal" which is a complete sh** argument. Harden's an ATROCIOUS defender to the point to where Rockets fans readily admit his D is sh**. Melo on the other hand is an average or slightly below average defender who's proven when he locks in he can play excellent D (see the 2009 WCF).

Only difference is Melo isn't half the passer Harden is (while Lee and Griffin are comparable in that aspect) nor is he anywhere near the level defensively as Blake and the 2 played primarily the same position this entire season.


Harden is the perfect guy for the new stat age where people analyze with numbers but forgot to factor in intangibles and rank things accordingly. Go around the NBA and ask every coach and player who's better and I'm 100 percent sure at least 70+ percent say Melo without thinking.

That would be because Melo has the proven track record and Harden has one season under his belt, thing is though this is based largely on this one season. Also this ideal of new stat age? Harden provides greater intangible offensive worth than Carmelo with his play. He's more versatile, can beat you even when his shot isn't falling at a high rate from the floor, knows how to get his teammates involved, controls the pace of the game better than any 2 guard since Brandon Roy and is already proving to have a great IQ.


Give me the guy that can score 35+ any given night with under 5 free throw attempts and is clutch as hell... over the guy who needs 15 free throws to score 30.

Why do so many people bash Harden for his ability to get to the line at the rate in which he does? He's a more efficient scorer from the field than Melo is as well and had he been in a different situation would achieve the type of volume Melo has with relative ease.

In case you don't understand his ability to consistently get to the line is more valuable than any player does fails to do so at a sub par clip.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:10 PM
couple of years ago, you could've done this same breakdown between iggy and kd. But nobody would say that iggy is better than kd.

PREACH brother!

Oh and Iggy is my favourite player currently in the league.

ChiSox219
04-09-2013, 08:11 PM
Harden is NOT the better offensive player, PERIOD. He gets to the line twice as much and STILL scores 2.5 ppg less. Melo is easily the more unstoppable and versatile scorer. Yes I understand Harden's more efficient in terms of percentages.

This reminds me of when people compared David Lee's and Griffin's defense this year and acted like "Oh they both aren't excellent defenders, so they must be equal" which is a complete sh** argument. Harden's an ATROCIOUS defender to the point to where Rockets fans readily admit his D is sh**. Melo on the other hand is an average or slightly below average defender who's proven when he locks in he can play excellent D (see the 2009 WCF).

Harden is the perfect guy for the new stat age where people analyze with numbers but forgot to factor in intangibles and rank things accordingly. Go around the NBA and ask every coach and player who's better and I'm 100 percent sure at least 70+ percent say Melo without thinking.

Give me the guy that can score 35+ any given night with under 5 free throw attempts and is clutch as hell... over the guy who needs 15 free throws to score 30.

Scoring= Melo
Rebounding=Melo
Defense=Melo
Passing=Harden

Melo wins 3 of the 4 main categories of basketball.

You need to understand that getting to the free throw is one of, if not the most important thing for a team's #1 scorer to excel at. It seems you are using Harden's free throw rate against him and that is simply misguided.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2013, 08:12 PM
They are both average defenders. Therefore, give me the super efficient scorer (Harden) anyday.

The one concern I have, is Harden tends to have his worst games against the best teams. That alone makes this a decent debate.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:13 PM
Can't use refs double standards against or for a player. Melo is a bruiser who refs let get beat the fu** up and Harden although strong flops like a fish and goes down if you clap at him, so refs baby him more than any player in the NBA this year, even more so than ex teammate Durant. Like I said.. if they were reffed equally this wouldn't even be a discussion because Melo would be putting up 32 ppg.

A Clippers fan complaining about flopping? Now I've seen it all.


In otherwords.. drawing fouls is a weak thing to compare in this scenario. Sure there is value of refs protecting certain players but that doesn't make the player better, it just means they will get away with more or be pampered. Melo's nearly 7 rpg is absolutely elite for a SF and is at the top with Lebron last I checked for his position.

So you're saying if we take away free throws, then Harden isn't better than Melo? Lol weren't you the same guy talking about the value of TS% in regards to Chauncey the other day?

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:16 PM
Couple of years ago, you could've done this same breakdown between Iggy and KD. But nobody would say that Iggy is better than KD.

That's why I included paragraphs for context :shrug:. I understand that all around player doesn't automatically mean better player in general. I just find it funny that depending on what day it is people flip flop like crazy regarding this kind of stuff. Melo just had an amazing stretch and people said "best scorer in the NBA!" and for the last 3 or 4 years we've seen people debate like crazy about if Melo or Durant is the better/more versatile scorer etc. Yet now you have people suddenly saying Harden's a better scorer?

I don't need stats or shot attempts to tell me who's the better scorer, I watch the games myself. Harden is significantly more reliant on refs and getting calls and he's a less versatile scorer. Melo can explode from anywhere on the floor. He's unstoppable on drives, can get hot from 3, is money on the pullup midrange jumper... is excellent at posting up. Harden is a two move offensive player. He either shoots 3's or attacks the rim, usually to draw fouls (similar to Durant).

For me although production at the end of the day is more important to style.. when arguing who the better scorer is I think being able to score efficiently from anywhere is extremely important. Not to mention Melo's significantly more clutch and has been among the elite clutch players his entire career.

Chronz
04-09-2013, 08:16 PM
Why are we ignoring free throws? This line was classic CN


Give me the guy that can score 35+ any given night with under 5 free throw attempts and is clutch as hell... over the guy who needs 15 free throws to score 30.
In other words, the guy who relies on less efficient methods of scoring, yea thats sure to help your team. Give me the guy who can score without hogging up all of my teams possessions (thus giving his teammates more attempts) whilst being the superior playmaker (thus giving his teammates higher% shots), its a double whammy. I dont see how Melo is the better offensive player, nor do I see an argument that supports he is of superior intangible worth.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2013, 08:17 PM
Why are we ignoring free throws? This line was classic CN


In other words, the guy who relies on less efficient methods of scoring, yea thats sure to help your team. Give me the guy who can score without hogging up all of my teams possessions (thus giving his teammates more attempts) whilst being the superior playmaker (thus giving his teammates higher% shots), its a double whammy. I dont see how Melo is the better offensive player, nor do I see an argument that supports he is of superior intangible worth.

hahaha

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:17 PM
You need to understand that getting to the free throw is one of, if not the most important thing for a team's #1 scorer to excel at. It seems you are using Harden's free throw rate against him and that is simply misguided.

I am. I have no respect for players that get bogus calls consistently like Durant and Harden. I personally see them as lesser players because I feel with fair reffing they would be significantly less effective.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:18 PM
PREACH brother!

Oh and Iggy is my favourite player currently in the league.

:nod:

I'm actually a bigger Melo fan than a Harden, doesn't mean I have to overrate him though.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:18 PM
Can't use refs double standards against or for a player. Melo is a bruiser who refs let get beat the fu** up and Harden although strong flops like a fish and goes down if you clap at him, so refs baby him more than any player in the NBA this year, even more so than ex teammate Durant. Like I said.. if they were reffed equally this wouldn't even be a discussion because Melo would be putting up 32 ppg.

And all of this hear is your opinion. What we are talking about is fact. My opinion is that if Harden shot the ball as often as Melo he'd be a better scorer on greater efficiency. Care to dispute that? Harden is just better BY FAR than any player in the NBA at getting to the cup, intiating contact and getting his shot up (leads the league in And 1s as well) than any other player in the game. Whether he flops or not really doesn't change this. As a BG fan you should be the last one complaining about flopping as well. It's called being a smart enough player to use every single advantage you can.


In otherwords.. drawing fouls is a weak thing to compare in this scenario. Sure there is value of refs protecting certain players but that doesn't make the player better, it just means they will get away with more or be pampered. Melo's nearly 7 rpg is absolutely elite for a SF and is at the top with Lebron last I checked for his position.

Again this is your opinion. An opinion in which mostly every single person who knows basketball would completely disagree with.

In case you haven't noticed despite the fact that Melo is listed as a SF he has logged major minutes at the PF this season. When comparing him to his peers on this occasion we'd take a look at the PFs and not the SFs in the league. Hell even among SFs however Melo is middle of the pack in terms of TRB% (http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=SF&yr=2013&gp=0&mins=0). Really doesn't provide much of a punch in that regard tbh.

Chronz
04-09-2013, 08:19 PM
Scoring= Melo
Rebounding=Melo
Defense=Melo
Passing=Harden

Melo wins 3 of the 4 main categories of basketball.
If you did this for Scottie Pippen and MJ, or Lamar Odom and Kobe, could you argue that at one point their teammates excelled in 3 of the 4 areas to a greater degree?

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:20 PM
I am. I have no respect for players that get bogus calls consistently like Durant and Harden. I personally see them as lesser players because I feel with fair reffing they would be significantly less effective.

Somewhere in there there is an oxymoron.

Chronz
04-09-2013, 08:22 PM
I am. I have no respect for players that get bogus calls consistently like Durant and Harden. I personally see them as lesser players because I feel with fair reffing they would be significantly less effective.
Even if we pretend this was a valid point, the fact remains that they do get to the free throw line. Do you get more PTS for making a midrange jumper than hitting 2 free throws? Then why would we care?

ChiSox219
04-09-2013, 08:25 PM
They are both average defenders. Therefore, give me the super efficient scorer (Harden) anyday.

The one concern I have, is Harden tends to have his worst games against the best teams. That alone makes this a decent debate.

I don't know man, his last game against OKC was as Jordanesque as I've ever seen. You really had to see the whole game to it justice but here's the highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6eyq-Ab44

He also dropped 36/12/7 on 16 shots @Miami a couple months ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCz0VSeqWso

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:26 PM
0
If you did this for Scottie Pippen and MJ, or Lamar Odom and Kobe, could you argue that at one point their teammates excelled in 3 of the 4 areas to a greater degree?

Completely different roles so no. Harden and Melo are both primary scorers for their teams. Lamar and Pippen were the support role and Robin to the Batman. Meaning they weren't trying to be the guy and were relegated to doing more the all around things to help the team. I'm comparing Melo and Harden that way because they have the same role pretty much. Although at best you could say Jordan and Pippen are a wash in those two categories IMO. Plus as I said context is key because we are talking a HUGE difference in scoring.

Jordan was scoring 10+ ppg more than Pippen most years AND averaged more assists per game than Pippen more years than not together. Defense you can argue them but they are neck and neck. Then you have rebounding which again was neck and neck for most of their years.

Scoring= Jordan by a massive margin
Defense= Equal
Passing= Equal
Rebounding= Equal

is more how a Pippen vs Jordan thing would shake down. As for Odom and Kobe... we are comparing a bigman to a guard first of all but even then Kobe averaged more PPG and assists than Odom and was a more consistent defender probably.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2013, 08:28 PM
I don't know man, his last game against OKC was as Jordanesque as I've ever seen. You really had to see the whole game to it justice but here's the highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6eyq-Ab44

He also dropped 36/12/7 on 16 shots @Miami a couple months ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCz0VSeqWso

I watched the game. Harden has had some struggles against the better teams, but he is in his first year being the man, and teams are loading up on him. I mean, I take Harden in this convo no doubt, but it's not as obvious as some may think. Melo shows up against big teams, and part of his problem is his inconsistent effort. Where as Harden is proving himself right now, and just runs into situations he hasn't seen before.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:28 PM
That's why I included paragraphs for context :shrug:

I already addressed the paragraphs.


I understand that all around player doesn't automatically mean better player in general. I just find it funny that depending on what day it is people flip flop like crazy regarding this kind of stuff. Melo just had an amazing stretch and people said "best scorer in the NBA!" and for the last 3 or 4 years we've seen people debate like crazy about if Melo or Durant is the better/more versatile scorer etc. Yet now you have people suddenly saying Harden's a better scorer?

So you're basing your opinion upon a debate that has no set criteria? If you want to say that Melo is the most offensively gifted player in terms of moves in his arsenal then those persons would pick Durant, if you value what's substance over style then you go with KD.


I don't need stats or shot attempts to tell me who's the better scorer, I watch the games myself. Harden is significantly more reliant on refs and getting calls and he's a less versatile scorer. Melo can explode from anywhere on the floor. He's unstoppable on drives, can get hot from 3, is money on the pullup midrange jumper... is excellent at posting up. Harden is a two move offensive player. He either shoots 3's or attacks the rim, usually to draw fouls (similar to Durant).

Even if this were true, why would it matter? Shaq had less moves than Hakeem, doesn't mean that he wasn't a harder player to stop.


For me although production at the end of the day is more important to style.. when arguing who the better scorer is I think being able to score efficiently from anywhere is extremely important. Not to mention Melo's significantly more clutch and has been among the elite clutch players his entire career.

Nobody said anything about "who's the better scorer" and if they did, that person was certainly not me. I said that Harden is the better OFFENSIVE player. Also, how clutch has he has been this season is more relevant than his career resume.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:28 PM
I guess this really does boil down to free throws for me. I understand you guys are saying basically "Well they get them so too bad"... but is there no meaning to the fact that some players get extremely preferential treatment and others don't? It's tough for me to swallow the idea that somebody is better or more efficient because they get reffed differently.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:30 PM
0

Completely different roles so no. Harden and Melo are both primary scorers for their teams. Lamar and Pippen were the support role and Robin to the Batman. Meaning they weren't trying to be the guy and were relegated to doing more the all around things to help the team. I'm comparing Melo and Harden that way because they have the same role pretty much. Although at best you could say Jordan and Pippen are a wash in those two categories IMO. Plus as I said context is key because we are talking a HUGE difference in scoring.

Jordan was scoring 10+ ppg more than Pippen most years AND averaged more assists per game than Pippen more years than not together. Defense you can argue them but they are neck and neck. Then you have rebounding which again was neck and neck for most of their years.

Scoring= Jordan by a massive margin
Defense= Equal
Passing= Equal
Rebounding= Equal

is more how a Pippen vs Jordan thing would shake down. As for Odom and Kobe... we are comparing a bigman to a guard first of all but even then Kobe averaged more PPG and assists than Odom and was a more consistent defender probably.

You're completely missing the point.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:32 PM
I guess this really does boil down to free throws for me. I understand you guys are saying basically "Well they get them so too bad"... but is there no meaning to the fact that some players get extremely preferential treatment and others don't?

What you're not getting is, why do we have to prove that? Rose doesn't flop so therefore should Rose>Cp3?


It's tough for me to swallow the idea that somebody is better or more efficient because they get reffed differently.

There's more to it than that.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:33 PM
I guess this really does boil down to free throws for me. I understand you guys are saying basically "Well they get them so too bad"... but is there no meaning to the fact that some players get extremely preferential treatment and others don't? It's tough for me to swallow the idea that somebody is better or more efficient because they get reffed differently.

Tell me something, what is your opinion on Shaq and the treatment in which he received? Because the amount of times he got hacked and it wasn't called because of his brute power, size and strength you should think he's the goat.

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that Harden isn't as great as he is at getting to the line because he gets preferential treatment he's as great as he is because he just has the knack and does every thing he can to keep getting there at a high clip.

ChiSox219
04-09-2013, 08:34 PM
I guess this really does boil down to free throws for me. I understand you guys are saying basically "Well they get them so too bad"... but is there no meaning to the fact that some players get extremely preferential treatment and others don't? It's tough for me to swallow the idea that somebody is better or more efficient because they get reffed differently.

It's not preferential treatment, Harden is great at drawing fouls, that's a skill.

Kashmir13579
04-09-2013, 08:36 PM
I had him above 'Melo last season.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:36 PM
Tell me something, what is your opinion on Shaq and the treatment in which he received? Because the amount of times he got hacked and it wasn't called because of his brute power, size and strength you should think he's the goat.

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that Harden isn't as great as he is at getting to the line because he gets preferential treatment he's as great as he is because he just has the knack and does every thing he can to keep getting there at a high clip.

Actually that's a good question because yes I do think Shaq would have a case as the GOAT right there with guys like Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic and Bird had he been reffed more fairly. I'm very sensitive to this topic because I HATE double standards in this league with a passion. Strong guys allowed to be murdered, smaller or weaker guys get a gust of wind and get free throws, yet are allowed to hit those strong guys freely.

I've watched Harden so many times that I can confidently say his free throws are way too easily given. How many times have we seen him 2 step/Euro step into legally stationary defenders and what should have been called a charge no question, is called a foul because he falls down and rolls around? I see that at LEAST 2 times a game from him usually which amounts to 4 free throws right there. Sorry but Harden is rarely actually hit and I'd say he deserves maybe half the calls he gets.

Sure drawing fouls is a skill but the way he does it similar to Wade (jumping into stationary players, rip through moves, flops etc) is what bothers me. You won't hear me cry about games where Lebron gets a ton of free throws because the guy gets abused like a mother fu**er just like all the bruisers in the NBA that get nowhere near the calls of featherweights Durant and Harden. Just no integrity to the calls Harden gets. Charge full speed into defenders chests who aren't moving.... not a fan.

justinnum1
04-09-2013, 08:39 PM
This I agree with. Harden>melo

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:39 PM
Actually that's a good question because yes I do think Shaq would have a case as the GOAT right there with guys like Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic and Bird had he been reffed more fairly. I'm very sensitive to this topic because I HATE double standards in this league with a passion. Strong guys allowed to be murdered, smaller or weaker guys get a gust of wind and get free throws, yet are allowed to hit those strong guys freely.

I've watched Harden so many times that I can confidently say his free throws are way too easily given. How many times have we seen him 2 step/Euro step into legally stationary defenders and what should have been called a charge no question, is called a foul because he falls down and rolls around? I see that at LEAST 2 times a game from him usually which amounts to 4 free throws right there. Sorry but Harden is rarely actually hit and I'd say he deserves maybe half the calls he gets.

Sure drawing fouls is a skill but the way he does it similar to Wade (jumping into stationary players, rip through moves, flops etc) is what bothers me. You won't here me cry about games where Lebron gets a ton of free throws because the guy gets abused like a mother fu**er just like all the bruisers in the NBA that get nowhere near the calls of featherweights Durant and Harden.

What's the case for Bird over Kobe?

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:42 PM
What's the case for Bird over Kobe?

You think Kobe is top 5 all time? If so that's a different discussion in itself. I got Kobe in the 5-10 range.

xxplayerxx23
04-09-2013, 08:42 PM
Really tough to choose from. I think I'll go Melo now, but Harden long term.

I agree 100%

Chronz
04-09-2013, 08:44 PM
Completely different roles so no. Harden and Melo are both primary scorers for their teams. Lamar and Pippen were the support role and Robin to the Batman. Meaning they weren't trying to be the guy and were relegated to doing more the all around things to help the team. I'm comparing Melo and Harden that way because they have the same role pretty much.
So you only trot this out when the offensive usage is similar? Could you do this breakdown for Glenn Robinson vs Ray Allen back when they were teammates. Not being a dick at all, just curious about your methods.


Although at best you could say Jordan and Pippen are a wash in those two categories IMO.
At best? I guess I would have to be swayed because there is no doubt in my mind that at least at one point , Pippen held the edge in 3.


Jordan was scoring 10+ ppg more than Pippen most years AND averaged more assists per game than Pippen more years than not together.
Maybe, but I wasn't talking about their careers, just at different points of their careers unless your saying Pippen never went through that kind of year, Im not seeing the point.


Defense you can argue them but they are neck and neck. Then you have rebounding which again was neck and neck for most of their years.
Scoring= Jordan by a massive margin
Defense= Equal
Passing= Equal
Rebounding= Equal
How so?



As for Odom and Kobe... we are comparing a bigman to a guard first of all but even then Kobe averaged more PPG and assists than Odom and was a more consistent defender probably.
Yea and Harden is a SG who plays some PG, and Melo is a PF/SF hybrid. Pretty dissimilar no?

xxplayerxx23
04-09-2013, 08:44 PM
Harden is great but I disagree with him being better then melo right now. Harden is younger and for future I'd take him right now I'm going melo.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 08:44 PM
Actually that's a good question because yes I do think Shaq would have a case as the GOAT right there with guys like Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic and Bird had he been reffed more fairly. I'm very sensitive to this topic because I HATE double standards in this league with a passion. Strong guys allowed to be murdered, smaller or weaker guys get a gust of wind and get free throws, yet are allowed to hit those strong guys freely.

Actually that's not a double standard in the NBA that's basketball in general for you. Those same smaller guys take MUCH more of a pounding than the bigger guys naturally because of their size. Remember I am an Allen Iverson fanboy so this is a sensitive topic for me but I for one believe that A.I. didn't receive the amount of calls that he really should have gotten and had it not been for his constant whining to the refs he'd have gotten even less. The bigger guys tend to toss around the smaller ones on both ends of the floor while the same doesn't hold true the other way around.


I've watched Harden so many times that I can confidently say his free throws are way too easily given. How many times have we seen him 2 step/Euro step into legally stationary defenders and what should have been called a charge no question, is called a foul because he falls down and rolls around? I see that at LEAST 2 times a game from him usually which amounts to 4 free throws right there. Sorry but Harden is rarely actually hit and I'd say he deserves maybe half the calls he gets.

So basically Harden in your eyes averages 22 points a game and not 26?

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 08:45 PM
You think Kobe is top 5 all time? If so that's a different discussion in itself. I got Kobe in the 5-10 range.

Nope. I have him at 12 (although I think this season may finally be the season I bump him into my top 10). But I wanted to see your logic behind it. Because Kobe is the better defender, scorer, and he's won more rings (intangible argument).

xxplayerxx23
04-09-2013, 08:46 PM
This I agree with. Harden>melo

You agree with that no way.

xxplayerxx23
04-09-2013, 08:48 PM
Nope. I have him at 12 (although I think this season may finally be the season I bump him into my top 10). But I wanted to see your logic behind it. Because Kobe is the better defender, scorer, and he's won more rings (intangible argument).

Wow 12 is a little low IMO. I have him 9th

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:49 PM
So you only trot this out when the offensive usage is similar? Could you do this breakdown for Glenn Robinson vs Ray Allen back when they were teammates. Not being a dick at all, just curious about your methods.


At best? I guess I would have to be swayed because there is no doubt in my mind that at least at one point , Pippen held the edge in 3.


Maybe, but I wasn't talking about their careers, just at different points of their careers unless your saying Pippen never went through that kind of year, Im not seeing the point.


How so?



Yea and Harden is a SG who plays some PG, and Melo is a PF/SF hybrid. Pretty dissimilar no?

I didn't go by the actual usage stat. I'm saying my comparison was a 1st option scorer to another where as you wanted me to compare the franchise scorer to the franchise swiss army knife type of Robin/2nd option. I know you prefer numbers so we'll stick with that and in the time they were paired Jordan and Pippen were pretty identical on the assists and rebounding front, some years being better than the other. Defensively it's beyond hotly contested which was the better defender. I personally rank them side by side as the best perimeter defenders of all time with Payton and DJ mixed in there.

I personally slightly side with Jordan on D so for me at best Pippen would be winning two categories in some years but they seemed to alternate often when I pulled up their year by year numbers.

I guess I'm not really factoring in that Melo has played a ton of PF this year and I'm ranking him as a SF because that's his true position, Harden's is SG. Comparing a SG to a SF didn't feel that wrong at the time.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 08:56 PM
Nope. I have him at 12 (although I think this season may finally be the season I bump him into my top 10). But I wanted to see your logic behind it. Because Kobe is the better defender, scorer, and he's won more rings (intangible argument).

See I don't even particularly like Kobe and I probably have him at let's say 8 or 9 all time. Although I disagree with your definition of intangibles. Intangibles to me are leadership, clutch, toughness, will to win things like that and Bird has Kobe beat SOUNDLY in those things. Intangibles are not rings lol.. Kobe is arguably the most overrated defender all time, while Bird is extremely underrated defensively. To where I think they come to a pretty common ground. Kobe when he's engaged and was younger easily is the better peak defender.. but Bird was always a solid defender and didn't take as many plays off on defense as Kobe.

Scoring=Kobe
Defense=Equal
Rebounding=Bird
Passing=Bird

What this doesn't account for is just how huge the gap is in rebounding and passing (WAY larger than their scoring gap peak vs peak).

lamzoka
04-09-2013, 08:58 PM
The Melo hate on this site :facepalm:

lakerskbp24
04-09-2013, 09:06 PM
I have never really been a fan of the ESPN rankings. For example, last year or the year before they ranked Kobe #8. IMO that was insane. And this year is no different, I just have a tough time agreeing with the rankings.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2013, 09:12 PM
I have never really been a fan of the ESPN rankings. For example, last year or the year before they ranked Kobe #8. IMO that was insane. And this year is no different, I just have a tough time agreeing with the rankings.

are you basing your entire opinion of Kobe's ranking though?

KnicksorBust
04-09-2013, 09:23 PM
He's ahead of him by 1 spot? This is not news. For a full season, Harden has been more consistently excellent. I'm fine with the ranking. It'd be interesting to see where Melo would have ended up at the end of the season. Knicks streak extended to 13 and Melo going to get another effecient 30+ with good passing setting his teammates up for easy threes. I think Melo is really making a case for a top 5 season this year.

sep11ie
04-09-2013, 09:32 PM
Harding over Melo? THIS season? They done lost they damn mind!

Leave Tonya out of this!

THE MTL
04-09-2013, 09:34 PM
Melo is top 5 NBA player. To be ranked behind wade, Kobe, harden?

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 09:40 PM
He's ahead of him by 1 spot? This is not news. For a full season, Harden has been more consistently excellent. I'm fine with the ranking. It'd be interesting to see where Melo would have ended up at the end of the season. Knicks streak extended to 13 and Melo going to get another effecient 30+ with good passing setting his teammates up for easy threes. I think Melo is really making a case for a top 5 season this year.

Harden's actually had more bad games last I checked. Remember that string of like 7 games where he got literally shutdown consistently every night?

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 09:43 PM
See I don't even particularly like Kobe and I probably have him at let's say 8 or 9 all time. Although I disagree with your definition of intangibles. Intangibles to me are leadership, clutch, toughness, will to win things like that and Bird has Kobe beat SOUNDLY in those things. Intangibles are not rings lol.. Kobe is arguably the most overrated defender all time, while Bird is extremely underrated defensively. To where I think they come to a pretty common ground. Kobe when he's engaged and was younger easily is the better peak defender.. but Bird was always a solid defender and didn't take as many plays off on defense as Kobe.

You don't win as much rings in as prominent of roles as a Kobe bean Bryant without having intangibles. Also think of it like this, Wade has more "heart" than LeBron, but how does that play out for him in the who's the better player spectrum?


Scoring=Kobe
Defense=Equal
Rebounding=Bird
Passing=Bird

What this doesn't account for is just how huge the gap is in rebounding and passing (WAY larger than their scoring gap peak vs peak).

Kobe was a better defender than Bird.

Chronz
04-09-2013, 09:46 PM
I didn't go by the actual usage stat. I'm saying my comparison was a 1st option scorer to another where as you wanted me to compare the franchise scorer to the franchise swiss army knife type of Robin/2nd option.
I know what your saying, the problem with relying on primary/secondery option classifications is that they are basically vague generalizations. Its entirely possible for a "2nd option" to carry a bigger load than some teams "first option", therefore I try to think of a players load as more of an overall usage/burden thing.



I know you prefer numbers so we'll stick with that and in the time they were paired Jordan and Pippen were pretty identical on the assists and rebounding front, some years being better than the other.
"In the time"? sounds like your talking about averages when Ive clarified that I'm talking about individual seasons. But yes lets stick with numbers. Your right about their assists being negligible but the rebounding? Even if we stick to "in their time together", or to be more precise, from 1990-98, we can see that Pippen had a Rebounding% of 11.1 vs 9.6 for MJ. MJ at his PEAK posts lesser numbers than Pippen's average.


Defensively it's beyond hotly contested which was the better defender. I personally rank them side by side as the best perimeter defenders of all time with Payton and DJ mixed in there.

Nah its pretty common knowledge that MJ's defensive peak didn't coincide with Pippens, which means at 1 point in their careers (which is my original point), Pippen was indeed the superior defender.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 09:46 PM
Harden's actually had more bad games last I checked. Remember that string of like 7 games where he got literally shutdown consistently every night?

Never happened.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 09:54 PM
Never happened.

What are you going by? Look at his game log man and you'll see a ton of games where he shoots under 30 percent. He still scored due to free throws but he got shutdown. I haven't seen Melo neutralized as often as Harden. Basically Melo is harder to stop.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 09:56 PM
So why was Harden ranked over Melo? We had a thread in here the other day about who's better or something to that effect, Melo got SMOKED in the polls by non analytic and analytic fans alike. It's not just an analytic thing, the stats just confirm what we're watching in real time. Also the last part of your post is a baseless assumption.


By the way...

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?809207-If-both-were-free-agents-who-would-you-take-James-Harden-or-Carmelo-Anthony

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 09:57 PM
By the way...

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?809207-If-both-were-free-agents-who-would-you-take-James-Harden-or-Carmelo-Anthony

Uh... the thread is who you would take going forward. Anybody including me would say Harden. Doesn't mean Harden is better now.

Captain Moroni
04-09-2013, 10:00 PM
Same ESPN that had the Knicks as a 7 seed. ESPN knows Nada.

Ill21
04-09-2013, 10:01 PM
What a ****ing joke

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 10:03 PM
Harden's actually had more bad games last I checked. Remember that string of like 7 games where he got literally shutdown consistently every night?

A huge knock I have on Harden is that he can have stretches where he'd shoot like 24% from the field over a 5 game span, thing is though he'd completely FLIP the script and shoot 70% from the field over the next 6 games. What makes him so deadly though is that through it all he maintains his phenomenal free throw rate and plus playmaking. Lets put that theory to the test however based on their game log this season.

James Harden (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog/2013/) has had 48 games with a game score of 15 (what is seen as a good game) or more while Carmelo (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01/gamelog/2013/) has had 45 such games. Now lets remember that Harden has played in 10 more games than Melo has.

Lets take it up a notch however. Lets look at the games in which they had game scores of 20 or more (a game better than just good), Harden has 40 games of a game score of 20 or more while Melo on the other hand has 24.

So quite honestly though Harden hasn't been the pillar on consistency from a strictly box score POV he has been a much more consistent player than Melo is this season and that's largely due to the fact that he's a better all round player than Melo offensively and able to wrack up steals defensively.

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 10:05 PM
A huge knock I have on Harden is that he can have stretches where he'd shoot like 24% from the field over a 5 game span, thing is though he'd completely FLIP the script and shoot 70% from the field over the next 6 games. What makes him so deadly though is that through it all he maintains his phenomenal free throw rate and plus playmaking. Lets put that theory to the test however based on their game log this season.

James Harden (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog/2013/) has had 48 games with a game score of 15 (what is seen as a good game) or more while Carmelo (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01/gamelog/2013/) has had 45 such games. Now lets remember that Harden has played in 10 more games than Melo has.

Lets take it up a notch however. Lets look at the games in which they had game scores of 20 or more (a game better than just good), Harden has 40 games of a game score of 20 or more while Melo on the other hand has 24.

So quite honestly though Harden hasn't been the pillar on consistency from a strictly box score POV he has been a much more consistent player than Melo is this season and that's largely due to the fact that he's a better all round player than Melo offensively and able to wrack up steals defensively.

I agree that in that sense they balance out. Melo's lows aren't as bad but he's not as high as often. Although Melo's getting better and better right now when games are getting tougher so that has to count for something. The guy has scored 205 points to 5 turnovers in his last 5 games. Any idea how insanely dominant that is?

iam brett favre
04-09-2013, 10:08 PM
Curry over D-Will? LOL. And I love Curry.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 10:09 PM
What are you going by? Look at his game log man and you'll see a ton of games where he shoots under 30 percent.

So your claim has changed now?


He still scored due to free throws but he got shutdown.

He's a post by you about a Clippers player


Last year he was the Clippers 3rd best player. He put up 15, 4 and 3 on nearly 60% TS. He hit multiple big shots and as I said was easily the floor general and leader of the team (even more so than CP3). You could tell in terms of a voice this was his team.


So it's cool for Chauncey to have a TS above 60 but when Harden does it, it doesn't matter?

Clippersfan86
04-09-2013, 10:12 PM
So your claim has changed now?



He's a post by you about a Clippers player



So it's cool for Chauncey to have a TS above 60 but when Harden does it, it doesn't matter?

That's so far left field, I don't know how to respond. I never said anything bad about Harden's efficiency as a whole but rather as I'm discussing with Swash currently... Harden's lows seem lower than Melo. As a whole I've already acknowledged Harden is hands down more efficient than Melo. He's every fantasy players wet dream.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 10:13 PM
Uh... the thread is who you would take going forward. Anybody including me would say Harden. Doesn't mean Harden is better now.

Nope, it's closer to who would you rather have on your team as of today than who's the better franchise player.

Also if you surfed through the thread a little bit you'd find a ton of fans (including Knicks fans) state that Harden is better currently.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 10:13 PM
I agree that in that sense they balance out. Although Melo's getting better and better right now when games are getting tougher so that has to count for something. The guy has scored 205 points to 5 turnovers in his last 5 games. Any idea how insanely dominant that is?

By the tougher argument I can make the argument that Harden plays in a tougher conference than Melo does and has had by definition more "hard" games than Melo has had this season.

Melo is playing hella good right now, not the first time we've seen him play like this (I always say that a motivated Melo is the 2nd best SF in the league behind LeBron James though with the leaps Durant has taken this year that debate has gotten better) and it sure won't be the last. I'm really not that impressed since its something I kind of expect of a player with Melo's talent, skill and size. Don't really think he's getting better and better though but rather playing well and shooting extremely well (the most streaky thing in basketball) recently. He's played at this sort of level on quite a few occasions this season.

This season though Harden has been the more consistent player than a Carmelo Anthony who is as motivated as one that we've ever seen in this league.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 10:18 PM
That's so far left field, I don't know how to respond. I never said anything bad about Harden's efficiency as a whole but rather as I'm discussing with Swash currently... Harden's lows seem lower than Melo. As a whole I've already acknowledged Harden is hands down more efficient than Melo. He's every fantasy players wet dream.

Well Swash just destroyed that notion, and why I'm bring it up is. Why would anyone care if he shoots 30% from the field if he's still making his paycheck at the line?


I agree that in that sense they balance out. Melo's lows aren't as bad but he's not as high as often. Although Melo's getting better and better right now when games are getting tougher so that has to count for something. The guy has scored 205 points to 5 turnovers in his last 5 games. Any idea how insanely dominant that is?

Sorry this isn't a who can have the best 5 or 6 game debate. It's about the totality of the season.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 10:18 PM
That's so far left field, I don't know how to respond. I never said anything bad about Harden's efficiency as a whole but rather as I'm discussing with Swash currently... Harden's lows seem lower than Melo. As a whole I've already acknowledged Harden is hands down more efficient than Melo. He's every fantasy players wet dream.

This I can understand to an extent. Thing is though while this may be true from a statistical POV (as shooting from the field goes) Harden has never really been seen as one who'd take his foot off the gas or give less than 100% out there. Now his career is still young and he has some ways to go before this sort of judgement can be accurate but I'd need a bigger sample size for comparison of their lows as I believe its something great players are able to rebound from. Harden has shown that but hasn't really had the opportunities that Melo has had over the years to prove himself.

Even though his lows may be lower at his best his highs are higher.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 10:21 PM
You're entitled to any opinion no matter how misguided, ill advised and fallacious it may be. But when you try to pass off that opinion as fact, people are gonna correct you.

amos1er
04-09-2013, 10:27 PM
Terrible list. Harden above Melo is a joke. Even more of a joke is Westbrick at number 5 (above Wade and Parker). Chalk up another big failure for ESPN's NBA rankings.

amos1er
04-09-2013, 10:30 PM
NBA has been trying to hype up Harden all season. Notice how much love he has gotten form the refs. He leads the league in FT attempts. You can always tell which players the league is trying to build up by looking at the favoritism the refs show them and an undeserved high ranking on the ESPN top 30 list. This year it's Harden and Westbrook, last year it was Rose and Love.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 10:34 PM
NBA has been trying to hype up Harden all season. Notice how much love he has gotten form the refs. He leads the league in FT attempts. You can always tell which players the league is trying to build up by looking at the favoritism the refs show them and an undeserved high ranking on the ESPN top 30 list. This year it's Harden and Westbrook, last year it was Rose and Love.

What's your excuse for A.I.? The NBA never really tried to hype him up especially after the whole dress code issue but guess what after that issue was when he got to the line at a career clip.

javsvt
04-09-2013, 10:37 PM
If you are starting a team right now, I'm taking Melo. Sorry, just being a Homer, but Melo is on a tear right now. I can't see skipping over him for Harden. As far as defense is, for those that haven't watched Melo this year, his defense has improved, and from what I saw and heard, seems like Hardens defense is not up to par with his offense.

amos1er
04-09-2013, 10:38 PM
What's your excuse for A.I.? The NBA never really tried to hype him up especially after the whole dress code issue but guess what after that issue was when he got to the line at a career clip.

Stern didn't like A.I as a person per se, but he did sell tickets and he was a draw. Stern has to respect that at the time, A.I had a lot of fan love and Stern catered to it. Though he was most likely hoping that someone would come along asap to replace him. A.I was hyped from about 2001-2005. After that Wade and Lebron took his place as well as T-Mac's.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 10:45 PM
Stern didn't like A.I as a person per se, but he did sell tickets and he was a draw. Stern has to respect that at the time, A.I had a lot of fan love and Stern catered to it. Though he was most likely hoping that someone would come along asap to replace him. A.I was hyped from about 2001-2005. After that Wade and Lebron took his place as well as T-Mac's.

If Tmac took his place after 2005, wouldn't that go against your theory about how the refs cater to him?

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 10:50 PM
Stern didn't like A.I as a person per se, but he did sell tickets and he was a draw. Stern has to respect that at the time, A.I had a lot of fan love and Stern catered to it. Though he was most likely hoping that someone would come along asap to replace him. A.I was hyped from about 2001-2005. After that Wade and Lebron took his place as well as T-Mac's.

Thing is though A.I.'s career high is FTA didn't come until 06. So again I repeat what is your point?

amos1er
04-09-2013, 10:54 PM
If Tmac took his place after 2005, wouldn't that go against your theory about how the refs cater to him?

No, because he was just waiting for someone to come along that the fans would take too. Once Lebron and Wade entered the picture, there was no need for A.I to be hyped anymore.

b@llhog24
04-09-2013, 10:57 PM
No, because he was just waiting for someone to come along that the fans would take too. Once Lebron and Wade entered the picture, there was no need for A.I to be hyped anymore.

Seems like a lot of assumptions...

amos1er
04-09-2013, 10:58 PM
Thing is though A.I.'s career high is FTA didn't come until 06. So again I repeat what is your point?

You have to judge based on FGA. Iverson also had a career high in FGA in 06. When player A shoots 16 times per game and gets to the line 10 times and player B shoots 25 times per game and gets to the line 11 times per game, its obvious that the refs are favoring player A. Can't only look at total FT attempts per game to get the whole picture.

Swashcuff
04-09-2013, 11:01 PM
You have to judge based on FGA. Iverson also had a career high in FGA in 06. When player A shoots 16 times per game and gets to the line 10 times and player B shoots 25 times per game and gets to the line 11 times per game, its obvious that the refs are favoring player A. Can't only look at total FT attempts per game to get the whole picture.

No he did not. You're wrong on that and your conspiracy theory is highly flawed.

amos1er
04-09-2013, 11:01 PM
Seems like a lot of assumptions...

Your correct in that it's all assumptions on my part. Funny thing is that there are many others who have the very same assumptions. Even funnier how the NBA has the most people of any sport who assume wrong doing on the part of David Stern and his officials...Kind of makes you wonder eh...

amos1er
04-09-2013, 11:05 PM
No he did not. You're wrong on that and your conspiracy theory is highly flawed.

It's not a conspiracy theory...it's just a theory. The title "Conspiracy" it a derogatory word people use to discredit critical thinkers who might have some different outlooks on things that differ from theirs and what is widely accepted. Was Columbus a conspiracy theorist because he though the world might be round? Was Darwin a conspiracy theorist because he though the earth was older than 5000 years?

amos1er
04-09-2013, 11:10 PM
No he did not. You're wrong on that and your conspiracy theory is highly flawed.

Guess you got me on that one. His career high in FGA came in 2002. But that does not take away from what I am saying. If anything my dates were off, not the gist of what I was saying. Also I clearly stated that refs aren't the only thing that are used to hype players up. It's also the media. In 2006 Iverson was still pretty popular and therefore got love from the refs. Stern was transitioning him out and Lebron and Wade in. Basically Iverson was still in a transition period during that time as Lebron had not quite become the player Stern wanted him to be quite yet. Once 2008 rolled around however, all bets were off...

MELO 15
04-09-2013, 11:11 PM
Here is where a lot of people are going to go........ Ah well Ah What had HAPPEN Was!

Give me the top 5 MVP Candidates this year.

Who is leading the league in scoring?

Yeah Ahhhhh What had happen was. Lmao!

And yes, My name MELO 15 SAYS IT ALL, To save a lot of u the trouble.

3RDASYSTEM
04-09-2013, 11:35 PM
Harding over Melo? THIS season? They done lost they damn mind!

Not only this season but take it back to CUSE

MELO took that NUGGS squad to playoff rookie yr if my memory serve correct

plus he should have been at worst co rookie of yr, like HILL-KIDD

only way HARDEN wins is because of age but im not buying it,neither player is getting any better at this stage, easily MELO

TylerSL
04-09-2013, 11:56 PM
Wade should not be #6 thats for sure.

yea he shud b at 6.

1.Lebron
2.Durant
3.CP3
4.Parker
5.Kobe
6.Wade

shud b top 6

3RDASYSTEM
04-10-2013, 12:05 AM
Stern didn't like A.I as a person per se, but he did sell tickets and he was a draw. Stern has to respect that at the time, A.I had a lot of fan love and Stern catered to it. Though he was most likely hoping that someone would come along asap to replace him. A.I was hyped from about 2001-2005. After that Wade and Lebron took his place as well as T-Mac's.

So since you say AI was hyped 5yrs(comical to say the least) into his career can you BEAN fanatics finally come to grips that he was super duper hyped in la market being a 6th man runner up but starting in allstar game?

STERN wanted to hype up AI during 96' draft after AI locked up that REEBOK deal, but he wanted to do it his way, that got him blackballed day1

did you see the squad he took to the FINALS in 01' against your BEAN sidekick led LA team? his core players were SNOW/MCKIE, weakest support core ever, its amazing he was getting to playoffs with that core,let alone out the 1st rd

and just to think it takes a LAKER fan to say a player is hyped, but I cant really fault you since you are accustomed to it out that way in ***********, hype... LAKER NATION is not a bad word but they x it out for some odd reason

QueensG_718
04-10-2013, 12:16 AM
I had him above 'Melo last season.

Melos not your guy it seems. True colors coming out

astrosmaniac
04-10-2013, 02:07 AM
NBA has been trying to hype up Harden all season. Notice how much love he has gotten form the refs. He leads the league in FT attempts. You can always tell which players the league is trying to build up by looking at the favoritism the refs show them and an undeserved high ranking on the ESPN top 30 list. This year it's Harden and Westbrook, last year it was Rose and Love.

harden was top 2-3 in 4th quarter FTs last year if i recall. hard to think ESPN was hyping up a teams 3rd option/6th man

astrosmaniac
04-10-2013, 02:10 AM
You have to judge based on FGA. Iverson also had a career high in FGA in 06. When player A shoots 16 times per game and gets to the line 10 times and player B shoots 25 times per game and gets to the line 11 times per game, its obvious that the refs are favoring player A. Can't only look at total FT attempts per game to get the whole picture.

or it could mean player A is driving all the time while player B is taking jumpers. gotta look at the type of shots their taking. if i take 25 jump shots, im only gonna get fouled like 2 times regardless of how much the refs like/dislike me where as i'll get fouled a lot more often at the rim

RollingWave
04-10-2013, 02:31 AM
Harden: 23.3 PER , 12.5 Win Share, .215 WS/48

Melo : 24.2 PER, 8.7 Win Share, .178 WS/48

Clippersfan86
04-10-2013, 02:52 PM
or it could mean player A is driving all the time while player B is taking jumpers. gotta look at the type of shots their taking. if i take 25 jump shots, im only gonna get fouled like 2 times regardless of how much the refs like/dislike me where as i'll get fouled a lot more often at the rim

Explain Durant than? Most of his free throws come off jumpers.

Clippersfan86
04-10-2013, 02:53 PM
Harden: 23.3 PER , 12.5 Win Share, .215 WS/48

Melo : 24.2 PER, 8.7 Win Share, .178 WS/48

The win shares differs because Melo missed a bunch of games. Meaning it's pointless to post overall win shares.

Swashcuff
04-10-2013, 03:06 PM
The win shares differs because Melo missed a bunch of games. Meaning it's pointless to post overall win shares.

Not really when you consider the difference in their WS/48 and the fact that Melo's team has won more games with him in the lineup than Harden's has.

GiantsSwaGG
04-10-2013, 03:08 PM
yea he shud b at 6.

1.Lebron
2.Durant
3.CP3
4.Parker
5.Kobe
6.Wade

shud b top 6

:facepalm:

Clippersfan86
04-10-2013, 03:09 PM
Not really when you consider the difference in their WS/48 and the fact that Melo's team has won more games with him in the lineup than Harden's has.

That's why I specified "overall" as in total win shares. The WS/48 is fine.

lakerskbp24
04-10-2013, 03:28 PM
are you basing your entire opinion of Kobe's ranking though?
No. I was just providing an example. I just have a hard time agreeing with their rankings year after year.

Chronz
04-10-2013, 03:28 PM
That's why I specified "overall" as in total win shares. The WS/48 is fine.

Durability and sample size matter. Nothing wrong with his post, better to paint a bigger picture than a lesser one.

Chronz
04-10-2013, 03:30 PM
Explain Durant than? Most of his free throws come off jumpers.
He shoots alot of jumpers, but Im pretty sure most of his FOULSDRAWN come from attacking the rack. Could be wrong but you know me, I like some proof before accepting anything.

Twins Fanatic
04-10-2013, 03:34 PM
I think harden is a much better team player, therefore I'd normally go with Harden over Melo; but with how good Melo has been this season and the Knicks winning over 50 games, Melo should be ahead of Harden and maybe even top 5.

Badluck33
04-10-2013, 03:35 PM
i just farted so hard I think I blew out my back.

OceanSpray
04-10-2013, 04:37 PM
I'd rather have Harden than Melo. I love how everyone here forgets how inconsistent Melo is. Sure, he's having an amazing run thus far but his stats are still below Harden's. Harden is younger and a well rounded player. Two weeks of dominance does not outweigh an entire year of dominance.

BeachedAZ
04-10-2013, 05:12 PM
So ESPN are practically telling us that a team with kevin durant, russel westbrook and a bench player better than carmelo anthony was'nt the best team in the world last year *one thing i would'nt say is that harden is that much better this year than last year......because last year he was great scoring efficiency and this year hes a beast cause hes number 1 on his team

b@llhog24
04-10-2013, 05:14 PM
Harden never really changed, he just got more touches.

MonroeFAN
04-10-2013, 05:30 PM
I like Melo, and what he's doing right now is impressive. But Harden is a better player, I don't care how large the sample size is.

Rentzias
04-10-2013, 06:04 PM
Not only this season but take it back to CUSE

MELO took that NUGGS squad to playoff rookie yr if my memory serve correct

plus he should have been at worst co rookie of yr, like HILL-KIDD

only way HARDEN wins is because of age but im not buying it,neither player is getting any better at this stage, easily MELO
Nugget starters pre-Melo: Juwan Howard, Rookie Nene, James Posey, Vincent Yarbrough, Junior Harrington
Nugget starters Year One Melo: Marcus Camby, Nene, Melo, Voshon Lenard, Andre Miller

If Harden's already this close in the conversation with Melo in his first full year as "The Man," not sure how you come to the conclusion that they've both already reached their ceilings.

c.c.
04-10-2013, 06:06 PM
Harden > Melo

BULLSFAN0810
04-10-2013, 06:13 PM
this is a bad comparison... harden is more like a pg and melo is more like a hybrid foward. the real question is ... would the trade be fair if they were trade straight up...answer No if i traded melo id want a little more than just harden.

Swashcuff
04-10-2013, 06:15 PM
this is a bad comparison... harden is more like a pg and melo is more like a hybrid foward. the real question is ... would the trade be fair if they were trade straight up...answer No if i traded melo id want a little more than just harden.

This isn't a comparison thread this is a thread of where they are ranked cant you see that?

BULLSFAN0810
04-10-2013, 06:20 PM
This isn't a comparison thread this is a thread of where they are ranked cant you see that?

well witht that said ...heck no! melo is better than Harden...you can find a sg like harden every 4 yrs a player like melo is special. you guys can diss melo but he has paid his dues. bring up Denver..what is denver gonna do now. they are just as good/bad without Melo..ie..they havent gotten better ...deeper but not better..theyre like the Bulls of the west coast. Melo is a cornerstone you can hate him or dislike his game but he is better than everyone on 99% of the NBA roster and thats a fact. most of you guys talking dont have no one ...or your "STAR" is not a real star. And harden is sooo much a star okc traded him..be it a bad trade but , if it was a melo type player instead of harde, Westbrook wouldve been shipped out for CP3..TRUTH HURTS

Swashcuff
04-10-2013, 06:23 PM
well witht that said ...heck no! melo is better than Harden...you can find a sg like harden every 4 yrs a player like melo is special. you guys can diss melo but he has paid his dues. bring up Denver..what is denver gonna do now. they are just as good/bad without Melo..ie..they havent gotten better ...deeper but not better..theyre like the Bulls of the west coast. Melo is a cornerstone you can hate him or dislike his game but he is better than everyone on 99% of the NBA roster and thats a fact. most of you guys talking dont have no one ...or your "STAR" is not a real star. And harden is sooo much a star okc traded him..be it a bad trade but , if it was a melo type player instead of harde, Westbrook wouldve been shipped out for CP3..TRUTH HURTS

How often do you get a player as good as LeBron? When he left the Cavs went from first to worst.

BULLSFAN0810
04-10-2013, 06:26 PM
How often do you get a player as good as LeBron? When he left the Cavs went from first to worst.

if you build a team around any one player in a way it is built for them only...thats when. if youre the primary dribbler.passer and other areas of need ..youo guys talking about NBA players like theyre us. they built that team in the mold of JORDANS BULLS...IE LBJ ISNT MJ ...so it didnt work..... WE WERE WITNESSES

Swashcuff
04-10-2013, 06:29 PM
if you build a team around any one player in a way it is built for them only...thats when. if youre the primary dribbler.passer and other areas of need ..youo guys talking about NBA players like theyre us. they built that team in the mold of JORDANS BULLS...IE LBJ ISNT MJ ...so it didnt work..... WE WERE WITNESSES

How often do you get a player as good as LeBron?

STA_PLAR
04-10-2013, 07:05 PM
I'd take Melo any day.

It's funny people dont even compare Harden to his ex-teammates Durant and Westbrook.

Melo is compared to Durant on a daily basis and not only bc they are both SFs but because of their scoring ability. Melo was injured for around 10 to 15 games.

A lot of those games he would score under ten and leave the game. He would average 30 easily.

Other than passing ability which is because Harden is a driving and dishing type of player...Melo owns Harden in every other offensive aspect.

Melo should be shooting a lot more free throws. He is just strong and doesn't play soft.

Not to mention his team has been unhealthy all year and he still has them 2nd in the East. Who has been out for the rockets?

Clippersfan86
04-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Exactly what I said yesterday. One minute we are comparing Melo to Durant and saying Melo is 3rd or 4th on MVP ballot... now he's ranked like the 9th best player and being considered lesser than Harden?

jam
04-10-2013, 09:12 PM
These subjective rankings are a non=issue. We'll see what happens come playoff time. There are only 3 good teams in the east this season; the knicks should be able to make some noise.

Shlumpledink
04-10-2013, 09:24 PM
Not really a big surprise, espn doesn't claim to know anything about basketball. They just make lists and report what is going on in basketball

Knicks21
04-10-2013, 09:34 PM
I just dont see how it can be Harden.

This is PSD, I expect it, but it just makes some of you look silly.

rocket
04-10-2013, 09:38 PM
Harding over Melo? THIS season? They done lost they damn mind!

Whos Harding?

b@llhog24
04-10-2013, 10:16 PM
well witht that said ...heck no! melo is better than Harden...you can find a sg like harden every 4 yrs a player like melo is special. you guys can diss melo but he has paid his dues. bring up Denver..what is denver gonna do now. they are just as good/bad without Melo..ie..they havent gotten better ...deeper but not better..theyre like the Bulls of the west coast. Melo is a cornerstone you can hate him or dislike his game but he is better than everyone on 99% of the NBA roster and thats a fact. most of you guys talking dont have no one ...or your "STAR" is not a real star. And harden is sooo much a star okc traded him..be it a bad trade but , if it was a melo type player instead of harde, Westbrook wouldve been shipped out for CP3..TRUTH HURTS

1) Look at amount of quality SGs in comparison to SFs and the facepalm yourself
2) Melo got traded as well, doesn't seem like much of an issue.


if you build a team around any one player in a way it is built for them only...thats when. if youre the primary dribbler.passer and other areas of need ..youo guys talking about NBA players like theyre us. they built that team in the mold of JORDANS BULLS...IE LBJ ISNT MJ ...so it didnt work..... WE WERE WITNESSES

Except Harden has thrived in a variety of roles, while we know that when Melo isn't getting his touches he's not nearly as effective.


Exactly what I said yesterday. One minute we are comparing Melo to Durant and saying Melo is 3rd or 4th on MVP ballot... now he's ranked like the 9th best player and being considered lesser than Harden?

Derrick Rose.


I just dont see how it can be Harden.

This is PSD, I expect it, but it just makes some of you look silly.

Compelling argument.

oak2455
04-10-2013, 10:33 PM
Whos Harding?

Tonya?? she ate James:D
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tonyaharding.com/tonya_harding_now.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tonyaharding.com/&h=251&w=201&sz=1&tbnid=mqrZQbQExe4zAM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=148&zoom=1&usg=__SfN9A1YrB6LAlaHK1VgrgW997_E=&docid=lcl-Tq7uwpmG8M&itg=1&sa=X&ei=xyBmUcC4Eu-70QHw44GQCw&ved=0CIMBEPwdMAo

BULLSFAN0810
04-10-2013, 11:58 PM
How often do you get a player as good as LeBron?

from my 34 yrs ive seen 1 lbj like i seen 1 shaq, 1 penny ,1 grant hill , 1 A.i , 1 rose , 1 durrant . all are leaders of their team and head up in their prime may be equal or greater than James.

Prime shaq vs James...Shaq

Prime Penny vs James ...James , but if you ask MJ who was in his prime but in the latter stages , penny was the hardest guard ever for him.

James vs Hill ...can you really say a prime Hill is better than James ? I can because i saw the dude play. If you ask me Hill was better of a skilled player,even though James is more phusically built

Prime Ewing vs James...can you really in your wildest dreams think this? in an era where there are no centers and until this day if you ask any scout, ewing was the best high schooler he has ever seen and thats with James being accounted for

Prime olajuwon vs James .... REALLY ...REALLY

ALL IM SAYING IS GIVE JAMES HIS PROPS BUT HE IS ISNT ALL THAT AND NEITHER IS WADE..HOFers ??? YES. But cmon YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHOS THE BEST IF YOUR BASKETBALL VIEWING ISNT ATLEAST 16 years because who are you basing it on. If you havent seen basketball prior to ...lets say 92, youre actually talking mess and youre still new like i was at one point but keep watching and playing and itll come easier. youll be able to see a Wade and compare him to others. IE wade is a hofer but he isnt close to kobe and never was. i can say this bc i saw Jordan aka the prottype,then i saw Drexler the comparison. i saw Herold Miner, i saw the Pennys etc..now you tell me i cant tell the diffrence between a fake and the real ? now i see james i see a dominate guy..but i see a head case. i dont see Jordan , magic or no one else as far as competitiveness when talking of james,but i see oscar roberson...you know why ? because i looked up his game and i see james game . you can spew all the numbers you want,but you cant tell me what i saw. have a nice day

Knicks21
04-11-2013, 12:32 AM
1) Look at amount of quality SGs in comparison to SFs and the facepalm yourself
2) Melo got traded as well, doesn't seem like much of an issue.



Except Harden has thrived in a variety of roles, while we know that when Melo isn't getting his touches he's not nearly as effective.



Derrick Rose.



Compelling argument.

Yours is just as good.

b@llhog24
04-11-2013, 12:50 AM
Yours is just as good.

Feel free to actively address the points I've made then.

BULLSFAN0810
04-11-2013, 01:01 AM
1) Look at amount of quality SGs in comparison to SFs and the facepalm yourself
2) Melo got traded as well, doesn't seem like much of an issue.




Except Harden has thrived in a variety of roles, while we know that when Melo isn't getting his touches he's not nearly as effective.





Derrick Rose.



Compelling argument.
here are as many quality sf vs sg...OKC was able to trade Harden ..get another STARTING SG (martin) get a better totued SG out of college and not play him and do it all on the cheap...and if push comes to shove move Westbrook over to SG...FALCPALM YOURSELF..oh yeah and dont forget they got sefolosha and another roookie they really like

alot of players when they dont get touches go cold. Harden only role was to be able to switch over to PG let westbrook be the scorer and run the p&r. AND HE DIDNT START.Not saying he isnt valuable(harden) but if OKC had Melo and durrant with Westbrook ,all 3 wouldve started

to hate on Rose is your liking and i have no issue with it ,its like argueing about the color of the sun. i dislike James but i cannot deny he is one of the best. Me denying,or anyone denying a proven player is foolish and is kinda heroic to be someone who knows that theyre wrong and still choose to do and say opposite. it makes me wonder are you really true or are you that nieve. i do the same at times but i choose to be diffrent not outta spite or hate but out of logic and im rarely wrong and when i am i can admit it because it only corrects the imperfections. but hey to each it own i guess. When Rose kills your PG what do you have to say ?

b@llhog24
04-11-2013, 02:16 AM
here are as many quality sf vs sg...OKC was able to trade Harden ..get another STARTING SG (martin) get a better totued SG out of college and not play him and do it all on the cheap...and if push comes to shove move Westbrook over to SG...FALCPALM YOURSELF..oh yeah and dont forget they got sefolosha and another roookie they really like

You must have a really low standard of quality. That's like me being excited cause I got a pair of Shaqs to go out in.

Comparing quality SGs to SFs you'd get:

Harden/Kobe/Wade vs Bron/KD/Melo

then the tiers after that would be something like

JOE JOHNSON/Manu/PG/ and who again? vs PP/Deng/Granger/Gallo/Parsons/Batum

Long story short, SFs have the best depth of superstars/all stars/starters.


alot of players when they dont get touches go cold. Harden only role was to be able to switch over to PG let westbrook be the scorer and run the p&r. AND HE DIDNT START.Not saying he isnt valuable(harden) but if OKC had Melo and durrant with Westbrook ,all 3 wouldve started

Lol, they would be worse off. The reason why Harden was able to thrive in his role in OKC is because he didn't need touches/shot attempts to produce, can't say the same about Anthony. People get their panties in a bunch with Westy about how KD doesn't get the ball enough as is. Think Melo is supposed to improve that dynamic? :laugh:


to hate on Rose is your liking and i have no issue with it ,its like argueing about the color of the sun. i dislike James but i cannot deny he is one of the best. Me denying,or anyone denying a proven player is foolish and is kinda heroic to be someone who knows that theyre wrong and still choose to do and say opposite. it makes me wonder are you really true or are you that nieve. i do the same at times but i choose to be diffrent not outta spite or hate but out of logic and im rarely wrong and when i am i can admit it because it only corrects the imperfections. but hey to each it own i guess. When Rose kills your PG what do you have to say ?

Actually I loved to watch Rose play from his rookie season up until his MVP year cause Bulls games were always on in my area. Then Bulls fans on PSD left a sour taste in my mouth towards him so while I love to watch him play, there's no denying that he is/was severely overrated that year.

And Rose never got to play my PG cause he's too busy walking around on crutches.

Heediot
04-11-2013, 08:19 AM
I said that before I read the article. Last year ESPN ranked Griffin > Melo everywhere, and even like a week ago they had a Griffin vs Melo article out.

I wasn't even looking at his numbers, Griffin has nice stats but he can't carry a team like Melo can. If he doesn't have a prime PG and hes the focus of the defense he doesn't have much game and hes not taking you very far. He has too many deficiencies in his skillset.

Put the efficiency stats down and you think Griffin has JR Smith, Felton and Chandler winning 50-55 games?

Jeremy Lin had them winning with worse lol

Heediot
04-11-2013, 08:26 AM
In a big game, I'd taker Melo over Harden. How do you measure heart?

koreancabbage
04-11-2013, 08:36 AM
In a big game, I'd taker Melo over Harden. How do you measure heart?

who has the heart here? Melo has been out of the first round once. You'd think with all the talents in the world, he would will his team to multiple second round playoff series.

Heediot
04-11-2013, 08:39 AM
who has the heart here? Melo has been out of the first round once. You'd think with all the talents in the world, he would will his team to multiple second round playoff series.

Which series was he supposed to win?

Heart in my opinion is something you can just have A FEEL for. It's like of your friends, one can tell who is the bravest and has balls.

Swashcuff
04-11-2013, 10:05 AM
from my 34 yrs ive seen 1 lbj like i seen 1 shaq, 1 penny ,1 grant hill , 1 A.i , 1 rose , 1 durrant . all are leaders of their team and head up in their prime may be equal or greater than James.

Prime shaq vs James...Shaq

Prime Penny vs James ...James , but if you ask MJ who was in his prime but in the latter stages , penny was the hardest guard ever for him.

James vs Hill ...can you really say a prime Hill is better than James ? I can because i saw the dude play. If you ask me Hill was better of a skilled player,even though James is more phusically built

Prime Ewing vs James...can you really in your wildest dreams think this? in an era where there are no centers and until this day if you ask any scout, ewing was the best high schooler he has ever seen and thats with James being accounted for

Prime olajuwon vs James .... REALLY ...REALLY

ALL IM SAYING IS GIVE JAMES HIS PROPS BUT HE IS ISNT ALL THAT AND NEITHER IS WADE..HOFers ??? YES. But cmon YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHOS THE BEST IF YOUR BASKETBALL VIEWING ISNT ATLEAST 16 years because who are you basing it on. If you havent seen basketball prior to ...lets say 92, youre actually talking mess and youre still new like i was at one point but keep watching and playing and itll come easier. youll be able to see a Wade and compare him to others. IE wade is a hofer but he isnt close to kobe and never was. i can say this bc i saw Jordan aka the prottype,then i saw Drexler the comparison. i saw Herold Miner, i saw the Pennys etc..now you tell me i cant tell the diffrence between a fake and the real ? now i see james i see a dominate guy..but i see a head case. i dont see Jordan , magic or no one else as far as competitiveness when talking of james,but i see oscar roberson...you know why ? because i looked up his game and i see james game . you can spew all the numbers you want,but you cant tell me what i saw. have a nice day

Who's the hottest woman in Hollywood? I think its Halle Berry do you agree? Well because you watched something doesn't mean you are a better judge or more knowledgeable than someone else. Your eyes can be lying to you. Quite frankly I don't want to ever hear you speaking of players you haven't seen because apparently you are of the view that you can't speak of a player if you didn't see them live despite the thousands of full games available all over the world wide web.

Honestly I don't care what you saw because I know what I have seen as an avid NBA watcher for the last 15 years. That doesn't mean I never saw MJ play, I saw him play than many who are twice my age, believe it or not the footage is out there for those who actually want to see it. Age doesn't necessarily make you smarter it makes you older.

You think Grant Hill is better than LeBron 95% of NBA fans your age thinks differently but you think you're right and no one else can be. That's the mark of an ignoramus.

b@llhog24
04-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Which series was he supposed to win?

Heart in my opinion is something you can just have A FEEL for. It's like of your friends, one can tell who is the bravest and has balls.

Was hoping someone would answer my previous question: Wade has more "heart" than LeBron, but there's no doubt that Bron is the superior player. Westy has more heart than KD, etc.

Heediot
04-11-2013, 12:14 PM
Was hoping someone would answer my previous question: Wade has more "heart" than LeBron, but there's no doubt that Bron is the superior player. Westy has more heart than KD, etc.

I have always stated that once LeBron wins his first title and get the load/burden/monkey off of him he'll be better than ever. He's now playing more freely and not self-consciously.

It's like Flacco and Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan is a better player, but I'd take Flacco because the big games and pressure do not get to him. In terms of Melo and Harden,I'd take Harden as I would a guy like Peyton or Matt Ryan come regular season. Come playoff time I'd take Melo or Kobe.

rhymeratic
04-11-2013, 01:04 PM
from my 34 yrs ive seen 1 lbj like i seen 1 shaq, 1 penny ,1 grant hill , 1 A.i , 1 rose , 1 durrant . all are leaders of their team and head up in their prime may be equal or greater than James.

Prime shaq vs James...Shaq

Prime Penny vs James ...James , but if you ask MJ who was in his prime but in the latter stages , penny was the hardest guard ever for him.

James vs Hill ...can you really say a prime Hill is better than James ? I can because i saw the dude play. If you ask me Hill was better of a skilled player,even though James is more phusically built

Prime Ewing vs James...can you really in your wildest dreams think this? in an era where there are no centers and until this day if you ask any scout, ewing was the best high schooler he has ever seen and thats with James being accounted for

Prime olajuwon vs James .... REALLY ...REALLY

ALL IM SAYING IS GIVE JAMES HIS PROPS BUT HE IS ISNT ALL THAT AND NEITHER IS WADE..HOFers ??? YES. But cmon YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHOS THE BEST IF YOUR BASKETBALL VIEWING ISNT ATLEAST 16 years because who are you basing it on. If you havent seen basketball prior to ...lets say 92, youre actually talking mess and youre still new like i was at one point but keep watching and playing and itll come easier. youll be able to see a Wade and compare him to others. IE wade is a hofer but he isnt close to kobe and never was. i can say this bc i saw Jordan aka the prottype,then i saw Drexler the comparison. i saw Herold Miner, i saw the Pennys etc..now you tell me i cant tell the diffrence between a fake and the real ? now i see james i see a dominate guy..but i see a head case. i dont see Jordan , magic or no one else as far as competitiveness when talking of james,but i see oscar roberson...you know why ? because i looked up his game and i see james game . you can spew all the numbers you want,but you cant tell me what i saw. have a nice day

I agree with this completely!

Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.

LBJ is great no doubt for his ERA but keeping it real he has holes in his game that would have been exposed during NBA "GOLDEN ERA"

BULLSFAN0810
04-11-2013, 08:33 PM
Who's the hottest woman in Hollywood? I think its Halle Berry do you agree? Well because you watched something doesn't mean you are a better judge or more knowledgeable than someone else. Your eyes can be lying to you. Quite frankly I don't want to ever hear you speaking of players you haven't seen because apparently you are of the view that you can't speak of a player if you didn't see them live despite the thousands of full games available all over the world wide web.

Honestly I don't care what you saw because I know what I have seen as an avid NBA watcher for the last 15 years. That doesn't mean I never saw MJ play, I saw him play than many who are twice my age, believe it or not the footage is out there for those who actually want to see it. Age doesn't necessarily make you smarter it makes you older.

You think Grant Hill is better than LeBron 95% of NBA fans your age thinks differently but you think you're right and no one else can be. That's the mark of an ignoramus.

I guess you told me ? Yeah I think Hill was better than james as far as skill. I waSnt saying james was weak either. See people like you live on the extreme. Just because james is great, it doesn't mean everyone before or after him lacks or can't go head to head or his skill set dominates everyone because it had never been done before, it dominates because people like you who bought into the hype.. "king" "witness" what did you witness? I saW a little boy being hyped beyond what needed to be, and when he was asked to deliver he couldn't so he left home and joined 2 other stars. He never really had a nemesis in clevland outside the old *** pistons who are like the old *** celtics of today. So imnsho james lacks when of compare him to others like ewing. You know why? Ewing at age twenty something couldve bolted ny like james and ganged up with other players and insured a championship, but he didn't. Guys like him, I feel sorry for because theYRE that loyal and IF they would've won like james did we would all kiss their *** saying how great they are. # integrity. #YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN DUPED.

Oefarmy2005
04-12-2013, 03:20 PM
Pretty terrible list since Rose is on it at 23 and he hasn't played a game and Love is on it playing a total of 18 games.

Sssmush
04-12-2013, 06:02 PM
they factor in efficiency and defense... so yeah, from a stats perpsective Harden is ahead. From a fan type perspective, say based on comparing ESPN highlights or something, then Melo should clearly win.

Leach11
05-03-2013, 05:49 PM
I agree with this completely!

Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.

LBJ is great no doubt for his ERA but keeping it real he has holes in his game that would have been exposed during NBA "GOLDEN ERA"

hahahahahahahahaha, I can't breath...that has to be the greatest troll ever. You deserve a :clap:

Guppyfighter
05-03-2013, 05:58 PM
In a big game, I'd taker Melo over Harden. How do you measure heart?

How do you measure first round exits?

Would it be like heart per playoff series or something? I think Melo would be low in this fake category.

Harden went 7/8 on threes in an elimination game.

b@llhog24
05-03-2013, 08:55 PM
hahahahahahahahaha, I can't breath...that has to be the greatest troll ever. You deserve a :clap:

Saw it in my sig?

SeoulBeatz
05-03-2013, 09:04 PM
Melo>Harden .... the gap is closing no doubt, but if i had to choose one scorer for a game 7 it would be Melo over Harden, that's how i see it.

justinnum1
05-03-2013, 09:05 PM
Melo>Harden .... the gap is closing no doubt, but if i had to choose one scorer for a game 7 it would be Melo over Harden, that's how i see it.

Give me curry over both

alexander_37
05-03-2013, 09:28 PM
Melo>Harden .... the gap is closing no doubt, but if i had to choose one scorer for a game 7 it would be Melo over Harden, that's how i see it.

8-24 for 22

or

10-16 for 31 against a much better defense.

Hmm yeah I'll take Melo as well

alexander_37
05-03-2013, 09:37 PM
Oh and Melol tonight 5-18 for 14 points. What a scoring machine.

Guppyfighter
05-03-2013, 10:20 PM
Melo's LPM (Leadership Per Minute) is off the charts. This makes him more valuable than Harden.

Hardaway Here
05-04-2013, 01:14 AM
:facepalm:

Great way to get your point across mad because you don't see Melo on his list. Guess what those 6 people actually play both ends of the ball. Granted Kobe does it less than the rest but is a good defender when he actually does play D. Same can't be said for Melo

HeaTxRipZz
05-04-2013, 01:23 AM
Great way to get your point across mad because you don't see Melo on his list. Guess what those 6 people actually play both ends of the ball. Granted Kobe does it less than the rest but is a good defender when he actually does play D. Same can't be said for Melo

Old belief. A lot have taken notice of Anthony's improved effort on defense. he was never actually bad he just barely gave the effort in Denver. Totally different story these days but I know how it goes with people. It's hard to change a belief so fast

Sactown
05-04-2013, 01:28 AM
Old belief. A lot have taken notice of Anthony's improved effort on defense. he was never actually bad he just barely gave the effort in Denver. Totally different story these days but I know how it goes with people. It's hard to change a belief so fast

He's still a ball stopper, and when he doesn't get his shots going it really limits his game..

In the first series he's averaged
27.4 shots 1.2 assists and 2.6 turnovers to get 30 points.. He shot 39% from the field and 28% from deep and posted a per below 20.. He was wildly mediocre in that series, and if the team hadn't been vastly superior than the Celtics Melo would of seen another 1st round exit.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-04-2013, 01:32 AM
i agree with this completely!

Shoot i'd even put up glen rice and mitch richmond in their prime at or slightly better than james. Even glenn robinson who is a forgotten beast.

Lbj is great no doubt for his era but keeping it real he has holes in his game that would have been exposed during nba "golden era"
lolololol.

HeaTxRipZz
05-04-2013, 01:35 AM
He's still a ball stopper, and when he doesn't get his shots going it really limits his game..

In the first series he's averaged
27.4 shots 1.2 assists and 2.6 turnovers to get 30 points.. He shot 39% from the field and 28% from deep and posted a per below 20.. He was wildly mediocre in that series, and if the team hadn't been vastly superior than the Celtics Melo would of seen another 1st round exit.

He was terrible that series I'm not sure what's going on with him. We'll see if he bounces back vs pacers I think he will but all of the Isos have to stop. He made improvements this season just to revert back when the Celtics showed they wouldn't roll over.

Sactown
05-04-2013, 01:39 AM
He was terrible that series I'm not sure what's going on with him. We'll see if he bounces back vs pacers I think he will but all of the Isos have to stop. He made improvements this season just to revert back when the Celtics showed they wouldn't roll over.

Seemed like the Celtics didn't throw a lot of doubles at him so he just thought he could go 1v1 and it just didn't work. He would hold the ball for 10 seconds without making a move.

And he better get back to swinging the ball or the Knicks have no shot against the pacers and their defense.

smith&wesson
05-04-2013, 02:31 AM
In terms of potential I think harden has the higher ceiling. But as of right now I'd say they are neck and neck.

KniCks4LiFe
05-04-2013, 02:38 AM
I'd say the same. Harden has potential but he a long way away.

DumDum
05-04-2013, 03:22 AM
They both shoot but harden can pass and defend