PDA

View Full Version : 2013: The year the 20-10 big ceased to exist



Chronz
03-31-2013, 12:46 AM
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2013/03/30/warner-nba-will-be-without-a-20-10-big-man-for-first-time/

FIRST TIME IN HISTORY.....


I miss talented, complete bigs. **** injuries and **** the perimeter freedom of movement the rules committee has backed the last few decades.

shep33
03-31-2013, 12:50 AM
That is unbelievable

shep33
03-31-2013, 12:51 AM
I hate that we don't have dominant bigs anymore. Just sucks, but the game has changed without a doubt.

Chronz
03-31-2013, 12:54 AM
Blake could have done it, but he hardly plays anymore. And hes having trouble finding a balance of helping defensively while still being in rebounding position.

Oden, Yao, Bynum, Love, Dwight being injured has played a role for sure.

AnthonyTyrael
03-31-2013, 01:16 AM
Injuries and continuing development. So not unexpected at all.

The writter better should play a full season or a playoff series against Timmy and decide then if he's beyond his prime or not. His numbers are lower but so are his minutes and my eyes tell me otherwise.

hidalgo
03-31-2013, 01:20 AM
the centers this era aren't very impressive, that's for sure

it's been well over 10 years like this, only Shaquille was a true worthy C since 2000. Yao would have been like 8th best in the 90s (Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo)

Hellcrooner
03-31-2013, 01:25 AM
Get back to old rules and **** the damm Chuking guards.

bucketss
03-31-2013, 01:50 AM
Get back to old rules and **** the damm Chuking guards.

+1

b@llhog24
03-31-2013, 01:52 AM
the centers this era aren't very impressive, that's for sure

it's been well over 10 years like this, only Shaquille was a true worthy C since 2000. Yao would have been like 8th best in the 90s (Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo)

Gimme some of that loud.

KaganRS
03-31-2013, 02:22 AM
you guys should hop on the Andre Drummond bandwaggon now 'cause he's comin!

VCaintdead17
03-31-2013, 02:38 AM
Blake could have done it, but he hardly plays anymore. And hes having trouble finding a balance of helping defensively while still being in rebounding position.

Oden, Yao, Bynum, Love, Dwight being injured has played a role for sure.



I don't get what you mean by this

Chronz
03-31-2013, 02:46 AM
I don't get what you mean by this

His minutes are at a career low, if we needed him to play more, he prolly would be averaging 20-10.

Bravo95
03-31-2013, 02:49 AM
Horford's getting closer.

hidalgo
03-31-2013, 02:54 AM
Horford's getting closer.maybe next year for him

DallasTrilla23
03-31-2013, 02:54 AM
Even Z-Bo ain't getting 20-10? damn...

How are they gonna call you "First Name 20 Last Name 10" and you don't even get 20-10

KingPosey
03-31-2013, 03:22 AM
Bigs just aren't bigs anymore, plain and simple. PFs are really tall 3s and Cs are stretch 4s that can't score. Love would do it in his sleep but he's injured. I also think Blake would do it but I think he sacrifices personal stats more than most realize.

Cousins could also do this easily if his maturity didn't constantly keep him off the floor whether its because of his attitude, shot selection, lack of team game. Mother ****er.

Sadds The Gr8
03-31-2013, 03:31 AM
I noticed it awhile ago. Dominant bigs are extinct.

mngopher35
03-31-2013, 04:02 AM
If only Love weren't out/injured all year...

John Walls Era
03-31-2013, 04:13 AM
you guys should hop on the Andre Drummond bandwaggon now 'cause he's comin!

He will never average 20 pts. 10 rebounds will be easy for him.

AnthonyTyrael
03-31-2013, 07:20 AM
Bigs just aren't bigs anymore, plain and simple. PFs are really tall 3s and Cs are stretch 4s that can't score. Love would do it in his sleep but he's injured. I also think Blake would do it but I think he sacrifices personal stats more than most realize.

Cousins could also do this easily if his maturity didn't constantly keep him off the floor whether its because of his attitude, shot selection, lack of team game. Mother ****er.

:laugh:

Heck of a dude.

ChiSox219
03-31-2013, 10:18 AM
Meh 20/10 is an arbitrary mark and doesn't indicate a well rounded dominant big. David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Shawn Marion, Zach Randolph, Jermaine O'neal, Al Jefferson are all guys who have done it and none of those guys were ever superstars.

zB_#85
03-31-2013, 10:31 AM
Sucks. I don't really like where the game is going. Heavy Euro influence has definitely changed the NBA game. Games is just too fast now and played too much from the perimeter for most bigs to be effective.

Hellcrooner
03-31-2013, 11:35 AM
Sucks. I don't really like where the game is going. Heavy Euro influence has definitely changed the NBA game. Games is just too fast now and played too much from the perimeter for most bigs to be effective.

Except, bigs still play like bigs and are important in europe, and nba game nowdays has NOTHING to do with what is played in europe either.

Nba has become a freak show of isolation plays for the designed star chuking guard of each team instead of team play and flashy displays of athleticism instead of fundamentals, that , is far from being europeans fault-

mightybosstone
03-31-2013, 11:42 AM
Meh 20/10 is an arbitrary mark and doesn't indicate a well rounded dominant big. David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Shawn Marion, Zach Randolph, Jermaine O'neal, Al Jefferson are all guys who have done it and none of those guys were ever superstars.

I tend to agree with this. Also, consider that if Love had been healthy this season, he absolutely would have reached that mark. Then you have to remember that guys like Bosh and Howard sacrifice statistical production to play on teams with other stars. Those guys easily could accomplish that goal if they played on their former teams with a more predominant role in the offense.

kdspurman
03-31-2013, 11:46 AM
Except, bigs still play like bigs and are important in europe, and nba game nowdays has NOTHING to do with what is played in europe either.

Nba has become a freak show of isolation plays for the designed star chuking guard of each team instead of team play and flashy displays of athleticism instead of fundamentals, that , is far from being europeans fault-

Pretty much spot on imo.

D-Leethal
03-31-2013, 12:16 PM
Everybody wanna be like Mike.

Even the big guys.

dalton749
03-31-2013, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=zB_#85;25774278]Sucks. I don't really like where the game is going. Heavy Euro influence has definitely changed the NBA game. Games is just too fast now and played too much from the perimeter for most bigs to be effective.[/QUOTE

all euros are not bargnani. most of them are more fundamentally sound than american players just arent as talented.

hugepatsfan
03-31-2013, 12:50 PM
It's the era of isolation. That's why bigs aren't putting up big #s and that's why if you don't have a superstar that can score in those iso situations you aren't winning ****. And that's why the NBA has become such a boring sport to follow IMO unless you root for one of a handful of teams.

True Sports Fan
03-31-2013, 01:05 PM
Not surprised but it's awful to have no dominant big in the NBA. Dwight is the closest, but even himself isn't there yet. He's a good rebounding and defensive center. His offensive game is somewhat lacking though. Kevin Love will probably average 20-14 next season which is definitely impressive however he still needs to work on his defense to be truly dominant. With the NBA evolving and like previously mentioned guards chucking up shots dominant bigs will only become more and more rare. As much as I hate Shaq and the Lakers I wish I had the privilege to watch him live.

Sactown
03-31-2013, 01:10 PM
If Tim Duncan and DeMarcus got more minutes they'd both hit it

Gators123
03-31-2013, 01:21 PM
Damn thats sad.

kdspurman
03-31-2013, 01:25 PM
If Tim Duncan and DeMarcus got more minutes they'd both hit it

Good point. Cousins can be so dominant if he wasn't such a headcase at times.

Sactown
03-31-2013, 01:59 PM
Good point. Cousins can be so dominant if he wasn't such a headcase at times.

Eh plus we have such depth in our front court

Hayes
Cousins
Jason Thompson
Patrick Patterson
Cole Aldrich who's been an unexpected surprise.

Smart likes to usually give 4 of the 5 minutes.

Hawkeye15
03-31-2013, 02:02 PM
Love injured removes the automatic candidate, Dwight being hurt the first half of the year removes him, Cousins and possibly Duncan not playing enough remove them.

Interesting year. So many injuries.

zB_#85
03-31-2013, 02:11 PM
Except, bigs still play like bigs and are important in europe, and nba game nowdays has NOTHING to do with what is played in europe either.

Nba has become a freak show of isolation plays for the designed star chuking guard of each team instead of team play and flashy displays of athleticism instead of fundamentals, that , is far from being europeans fault-




all euros are not bargnani. most of them are more fundamentally sound than american players just arent as talented.

I'm not bashing euros but anyone who doesn't think its had an influence on the NBA game is a moron. Dirk at PF has kind of changed the position as we know it. "Stretch" 4's are very common now and with 1-4 chucking 3's long rebounds are fair game and its harder for a big to dominate the boards and to be a dominate defensive presence. They're pulling those types of players away from the basket with stretch 4's and P&R's.

dalton749
03-31-2013, 02:27 PM
I'm not bashing euros but anyone who doesn't think its had an influence on the NBA game is a moron. Dirk at PF has kind of changed the position as we know it. "Stretch" 4's are very common now and with 1-4 chucking 3's long rebounds are fair game and its harder for a big to dominate the boards and to be a dominate defensive presence. They're pulling those types of players away from the basket with stretch 4's and P&R's.

fair enough but theres still a fair amount of fundamentally sound euro bigs in the league

Chronz
03-31-2013, 02:39 PM
Nba has become a freak show of isolation plays for the designed star chuking guard of each team instead of team play and flashy displays of athleticism instead of fundamentals, that , is far from being europeans fault-

Nah. Iso's and star reliance are down. If Iso's were prevelant, bigs would be scoring more. Its why 20 ppg scorers are becoming more and more scarce.

D-Leethal
03-31-2013, 02:45 PM
Nah. Iso's and star reliance are down. If Iso's were prevelant, bigs would be scoring more. Its why 20 ppg scorers are becoming more and more scarce.

I agree. If anything I think its the tempo and tendency for teams to build around speedy young PG's and pick and rolls. It really renders the post up big man useless in that PG-oriented style of play. Most bigs are looked to set screens and defend and they don't really develop back to the basket games.

If iso's and half court play was more prevalent, the league would be better equipped for post up bigs to thrive, but its pretty much the opposite. Speed, ball movement, and the pick and roll + 3 ball game is dominating the league right now. Honestly its the Mike D'Antoni effect as much as the guy gets rightfully bashed here. He was an innovator and a lot of teams have adopted that style to a degree including some of the best in the league.

Backstabber
03-31-2013, 02:52 PM
I agree. If anything I think its the tempo and tendency for teams to build around speedy young PG's and pick and rolls. It really renders the post up big man useless in that PG-oriented style of play. Most bigs are looked to set screens and defend and they don't really develop back to the basket games.

If iso's and half court play was more prevalent, the league would be better equipped for post up bigs to thrive, but its pretty much the opposite. Speed, ball movement, and the pick and roll + 3 ball game is dominating the league right now. Honestly its the Mike D'Antoni effect as much as the guy gets rightfully bashed here. He was an innovator and a lot of teams have adopted that style to a degree including some of the best in the league.

Isn't it funny that as much as he has done to revolutionize the NBA style of basketball he couldn't successfully replicate it. I think other coaches have been much better at running his own style.

D-Leethal
03-31-2013, 02:55 PM
Isn't it funny that as much as he has done to revolutionize the NBA style of basketball he couldn't successfully replicate it. I think other coaches have been much better at running his own style.

Hes an innovator and a great basketball mind but that doesn't always translate into being a great coach and leader-of-men. He has tremendous XOs and great basketball theories but in the heat of battle he doesn't seem to be the guy you want on your sideline to lead you to victory and win the psychological battle. I think many brilliant and more experienced NBA coaches adopted bits and pieces of his philosophy and made it better on the NBA level, but its clear he has had a tremendous impact on the way we view the game today and the way the game is played today at the NBA level.

Hellcrooner
03-31-2013, 03:09 PM
I'm not bashing euros but anyone who doesn't think its had an influence on the NBA game is a moron. Dirk at PF has kind of changed the position as we know it. "Stretch" 4's are very common now and with 1-4 chucking 3's long rebounds are fair game and its harder for a big to dominate the boards and to be a dominate defensive presence. They're pulling those types of players away from the basket with stretch 4's and P&R's.

ever Heard of Detlef schrempf? or sam perkins?
strech pf 15 years before Dirk.
BUT the RULES back then didnt favor guards so much as they do today, and thats why bigs could still opérate.

Both learned their basketball in ncaa So sorry, but currente situation has nothing to do with Europe.

Btw, ts curious how MOST of the top Centers are actually foreign.

WARRIORS@GR
03-31-2013, 03:19 PM
Except, bigs still play like bigs and are important in europe, and nba game nowdays has NOTHING to do with what is played in europe either.

Nba has become a freak show of isolation plays for the designed star chuking guard of each team instead of team play and flashy displays of athleticism instead of fundamentals, that , is far from being europeans fault-This

ThaDubs
03-31-2013, 03:31 PM
I'm sure it's hard for big men to dominate game with all these scoring point guards.

ChiSox219
03-31-2013, 03:45 PM
Hes an innovator and a great basketball mind but that doesn't always translate into being a great coach and leader-of-men. He has tremendous XOs and great basketball theories but in the heat of battle he doesn't seem to be the guy you want on your sideline to lead you to victory and win the psychological battle. I think many brilliant and more experienced NBA coaches adopted bits and pieces of his philosophy and made it better on the NBA level, but its clear he has had a tremendous impact on the way we view the game today and the way the game is played today at the NBA level.

He orchestrated some of the greatest offenses in league history and led his team to the WCFs without any interior defenders. He's never gotten enough credit for what he's done with the rosters he was given.

kdspurman
03-31-2013, 04:11 PM
Eh plus we have such depth in our front court

Hayes
Cousins
Jason Thompson
Patrick Patterson
Cole Aldrich who's been an unexpected surprise.

Smart likes to usually give 4 of the 5 minutes.

Yea the depth is definitely there but I would think if he plays and stays focused and composed his minutes would go up. He's that talented and dominant at times imo

zB_#85
03-31-2013, 04:43 PM
ever Heard of Detlef schrempf? or sam perkins?
strech pf 15 years before Dirk.
BUT the RULES back then didnt favor guards so much as they do today, and thats why bigs could still opérate.

Both learned their basketball in ncaa So sorry, but currente situation has nothing to do with Europe.

Btw, ts curious how MOST of the top Centers are actually foreign.

Schrempf and Perkins were the exception back then, not the rule. The Malone's, Rodman's, Kemp's, etc were the way more common type of PF. Physical guys who weren't afraid to get in there and get their nose dirty. The game has just changed and the evolution of the game doesn't play to the big mans strengths. Its actually designed to negate the big guy and unfortunately its working. I will agree with you that rule changes is a big part of the death of the Center.

JasonJohnHorn
03-31-2013, 07:29 PM
This is bad. I think the big reason is because in college and highschool bigs still rely on the post, but the rules for the NBA don't allow them to work the post the same way, so unless they have a good mid-range jumper, they aren't going to get as many touches.

And the guys who have that mid-range jumper, generally aren't as strong rebounders.

That said, Bynum would have likely done it if healthy, same for Love and Howard if he got more touches. Z-Bo as well, if he got more touches, and BG if he got more minutes (VDN doesn't play his starters 36 minutes a game). LMA is the only PF to get 20+ and he isn't as strong a rebounder as some. Lee and Z-Bo should both be gettign 20/10, and they are close to it, but they aren't getting the ball enough on offence.


It's just the game is so much more about the perimeter now. I miss watching guys back in to the post with their back to the basket. I don't care if it took 5 seconds. I hate the 3-seconds-with-your-back-to-the-basket rule.

Al Jefferson and BG would both be at 20/10 if they were getting 36-40 minutes a game, but they barely get over 30 mins per, so part of this is a matter of coaching (VDN, Corbin, Hollins, 'Antoni), part is injuries (Love, Bynum, Howard), and part is the rule changes and lack of offensively rounded bigs (Okafor, Hickson, Sander)or soft bigs who don't rebound well (LMA, Bosh).