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View Full Version : If Paul never wins a title as "the guy" , where does he rank among GOAT point guards?



mightybosstone
03-27-2013, 03:48 PM
Paul is 27 and in his eighth season in the league, constantly struggling with injuries. His best years were pretty much squandered on mediocre teams in New Orleans, and while the Clippers are certainly more talented, Blake Griffin is taking his sweet time to develop into the elite big man Paul needs and the Clippers will always be battling in a tough Western Conference that just seems to get tougher every year.

It's far too early to tell if Paul will ever win a title as an alpha dog, but it's also not difficult to admit he's facing an uphill battle at this point. If he re-signs with the Clippers, they may never be quite as good as they need to be to make it to the Finals and even if they do reach the Finals, it's unlikely they'll ever be good enough to be Lebron's Heat. If he signs elsewhere, he may still not have enough talent around him to ever legitimately compete for a championship.

Long story short... The title pretty much says it all. Do you think Chris Paul will ever win a title as an alpha dog? And if he doesn't, where do you rank him among the GOAT point guards?

Cracka2HI!
03-27-2013, 03:58 PM
I think his legacy is already cemented in history. He is one of the best ever. Possibly the best 6' and under player on all-time. That said I can't see him winning it all with this Clippers team as the man. Blake has to become the man for the Clipps to become title contenders. If last night was any indication that isn't going to happen anytime soon if ever. If CP3 was 6'6'' he'd be in the discussion for the GOAT, but it is just so much harder for a guy that size to take over a game when the whole team is trying to stop him.

AWC713
03-27-2013, 03:59 PM
I think he'll end up top 5 PG of all time.

I don't want to say rings are overrated, but there's more to judging a player than just rings.

It takes a TEAM to win a championship, and some people forget that when the judge players solely on rings.

The way he's come back from his knee surgeries is amazing. He has top 5 PG potential IMO, but he still has A LOT of playing left. If he were to retire tomorrow, I'd probably rank him top 15 all time

KnicksorBust
03-27-2013, 03:59 PM
I don't think he'll win a title as the guy or at all for that matter. However, his contributions on both ends of the floor put him in a special category. He's easily one of the most complete PGs of all-time and his peak years in New Orleans already show his top 5 credentials...I'm looking at:

Magic
Oscar
Stockton

as the elite PGs in NBA History and then a drop off. If Paul stays healthy for the remainder of his career, I see myself ranking him as the 2nd greatest of all-time. He's just that good.

Swashcuff
03-27-2013, 04:01 PM
Some call Nash the 2nd best PG of all time and some have him as the 3rd, Paul's peak is already better than Nash's and if he can have his type of longevity I see no reason why he can't be top 5 all time.

KnicksorBust
03-27-2013, 04:01 PM
I think his legacy is already cemented in history. He is one of the best ever. Possibly the best 6' and under player on all-time. That said I can't see him winning it all with this Clippers team as the man. Blake has to become the man for the Clipps to become title contenders. If last night was any indication that isn't going to happen anytime soon if ever. If CP3 was 6'6'' he'd be in the discussion for the GOAT, but it is just so much harder for a guy that size to take over a game when the whole team is trying to stop him.

I don't want to dwell on that one game but the fact that they were sending Dirk out at him 25 feet from the basket for double teams... and getting away with it... was pretty ugly to watch.

ManRam
03-27-2013, 04:01 PM
if he sustains this level of play for a while, regardless of titles, he's easily top 5.

oscar and magic would probably be the only untouchables. i have stockton #3 and he's ringless too, so that's not an unrealistic guy for him to top. i rank zeke lower than most it seems...so that might be a point of divergence between me and others

Swashcuff
03-27-2013, 04:02 PM
I don't think he'll win a title as the guy or at all for that matter. However, his contributions on both ends of the floor put him in a special category. He's easily one of the most complete PGs of all-time and his peak years in New Orleans already show his top 5 credentials...I'm looking at:

Magic
Oscar
Stockton

as the elite PGs in NBA History and then a drop off. If Paul stays healthy for the remainder of his career, I see myself ranking him as the 2nd greatest of all-time. He's just that good.

Very interesting to say. Why do you feel this way?

Tony_Starks
03-27-2013, 04:04 PM
No offense but to me the concept of winning a title as "the guy" is very overrated. Like I don't look at Wade any differently because because Lebron was the "alpha dog" last year. He's still a great player and a champ.

If Paul wins a chip, regardless of what team he's on ( which will probably be the Clippers btw), no doubt he will have played a significant role. I judge him accordingly...

mightybosstone
03-27-2013, 04:05 PM
Some really good, really surprising answers. I tend to agree with everyone that I think he's on the path to being a top 5 all-time point guard based on his numbers alone. If Stockton and Oscar are top 5 guys with relatively little postseason success, than Paul will be as well when his career is complete. That being said, I would like to see him win a title at some point. He's so underrated when people talk about players of this era, and I would just like to see him get his due.

ChiSox219
03-27-2013, 04:07 PM
Paul is 27 and in his eighth season in the league, constantly struggling with injuries. His best years were pretty much squandered on mediocre teams in New Orleans, and while the Clippers are certainly more talented, Blake Griffin is taking his sweet time to develop into the elite big man Paul needs and the Clippers will always be battling in a tough Western Conference that just seems to get tougher every year.

It's far too early to tell if Paul will ever win a title as an alpha dog, but it's also not difficult to admit he's facing an uphill battle at this point. If he re-signs with the Clippers, they may never be quite as good as they need to be to make it to the Finals and even if they do reach the Finals, it's unlikely they'll ever be good enough to be Lebron's Heat. If he signs elsewhere, he may still not have enough talent around him to ever legitimately compete for a championship.

Long story short... The title pretty much says it all. Do you think Chris Paul will ever win a title as an alpha dog? And if he doesn't, where do you rank him among the GOAT point guards?

:eyebrow:

Blake is 10th in PER, 7th in WS/48 and playing great two way basketball. If he's not an elite big that pretty much only leaves TD.

As for CP3 he's one of the best offensive players the league has seen and pretty damn good on D. Whether or not he wins a title he's going to the HOF and will probably end up the 2nd or 3rd best PG in league history.

mightybosstone
03-27-2013, 04:10 PM
No offense but to me the concept of winning a title as "the guy" is very overrated. Like I don't look at Wade any differently because because Lebron was the "alpha dog" last year. He's still a great player and a champ.

If Paul wins a chip, regardless of what team he's on ( which will probably be the Clippers btw), no doubt he will have played a significant role. I judge him accordingly...

I think it depends a lot on the context of the title, that player's production and that player's career. Wade already had a title as a No. 1 guy, so him joining Lebron to add more rings to his legacy was sort of icing on the cake. Someone like Kobe needed that alpha dog title to cement his legacy, because otherwise people would have always claimed him as a No. 2 on those championship teams. And then you have guys like Oscar and the Admiral, who both couldn't get it done until they got superior players added to their squads (Kareem and Duncan, respectively).

Paul will end up top 5 for me, regardless, as long as he continues to be this statistically productive for a few more years and has a few decent postseason runs. But the difference in winning an alpha dog title and not winning one could be as high as second place or as low as fifth.

mightybosstone
03-27-2013, 04:15 PM
:eyebrow:

Blake is 10th in PER, 7th in WS/48 and playing great two way basketball. If he's not an elite big that pretty much only leaves TD.

As for CP3 he's one of the best offensive players the league has seen and pretty damn good on D. Whether or not he wins a title he's going to the HOF and will probably end up the 2nd or 3rd best PG in league history.

For this era, I would not argue against Blake as an elite big man. But for the history of the game, I certainly would. He's an exceptional athlete, a very good passer and an improving defensive player. But his jump shot is still a work in progress, he's atrocious from the free throw line and I see him shrink way too often in big moments. Also, his scoring output has become more efficient, but it hasn't increased like you'd like to see from a player at this point in his career. After that rookie season, I thought he'd be a 25/10 guy with a solid mid range jumper and shooting 70% from the foul line by the third season.

CostanzaNumba0
03-27-2013, 04:15 PM
if he sustains this level of play for a while, regardless of titles, he's easily top 5.

oscar and magic would probably be the only untouchables. i have stockton #3 and he's ringless too, so that's not an unrealistic guy for him to top. i rank zeke lower than most it seems...so that might be a point of divergence between me and others

Zeke had a .109 ws/48 for his career, he's not on the same planet as stockton robertson, magic and paul. Zeke is one of the most overrated players in nba history. Iverson-esque.

BKdoubleStacker
03-27-2013, 04:17 PM
top 5 without a a doubt

def better than kidd and nash

CostanzaNumba0
03-27-2013, 04:20 PM
Double post

Cracka2HI!
03-27-2013, 04:26 PM
I don't want to dwell on that one game but the fact that they were sending Dirk out at him 25 feet from the basket for double teams... and getting away with it... was pretty ugly to watch.

It was only 1 game and Blake is very underrated on this board, but last night wasn't an isolated incident. When Blake is on his game he commits stupid fouls and leaves the game. When he's off he passes off an open shot or clear lane to the basket to get Barnes a highly contested corner 3. If a guy has it you can usually see it from day 1. I don't see much of "it" with Blake in big games. He made me sick watching him play hot potato last night.

KnicksorBust
03-27-2013, 04:30 PM
Very interesting to say. Why do you feel this way?

The Heat are at the beginning of a dynasty and will control the league for the next 3-5 seasons. By that point, Paul may already be breaking down and younger teams (Wolves-Warriors-Thunder) will be blocking his quest for a championship. I hope I'm wrong... I'm still penciling the Clips into the WCF... but gun to my head I don't see how he can conceivably win a title on the Clippers or where he could go that would put him in a better position than with an elite big like Blake.


No offense but to me the concept of winning a title as "the guy" is very overrated. Like I don't look at Wade any differently because because Lebron was the "alpha dog" last year. He's still a great player and a champ.

If Paul wins a chip, regardless of what team he's on ( which will probably be the Clippers btw), no doubt he will have played a significant role. I judge him accordingly...

I completely disagree. First of all, Wade is a poor example because his resume pre-LeBron prevents anyone from questioning his greatness. He's got his chip as the "alpha dog" as you put it. You'd have to take a look at a more traditional robin like Scottie Pippen or Kevin McHale. Rings definately elevate players in the eyes of masses and "alpha dogs" get a bulk of the credit.

bucketss
03-27-2013, 04:36 PM
No offense but to me the concept of winning a title as "the guy" is very overrated. Like I don't look at Wade any differently because because Lebron was the "alpha dog" last year. He's still a great player and a champ.

If Paul wins a chip, regardless of what team he's on ( which will probably be the Clippers btw), no doubt he will have played a significant role. I judge him accordingly...

exactly, finals mvp is a team award anyways

ManRam
03-27-2013, 04:38 PM
Zeke had a .109 ws/48 for his career, he's not on the same planet as stockton robertson, magic and paul. Zeke is one of the most overrated players in nba history. Iverson-esque.

i agree. the numbers can be a bit deceptive, and a genuinely believe he had some attributes that stats can capture (he's an "eye-test" favorite), but i'm stunned whenever i see people put him in their top 3, or even top 5. a lot of smart guys disagree with me (chronz for example, i think).


i'd love to see paul win a ring as "the guy" too, but he has never been on a team that realistically could have won, and that's not his fault. it's not fair to pretend like every star can win a ring without look at the teams they're on. LAC is getting better, but i still think they're still a few small pieces away. and that isn't something i feel comfortable knocking him for (like i don't knock lebron much for cleveland, or kobe much for post-shaq/pre-pau, or kg much for minnesota and so on).

team success always has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. it's not an excuse saying it's not reasonable to expect a ring from him at this point in his career...it's just being fair and honest.

Tony_Starks
03-27-2013, 05:06 PM
The Heat are at the beginning of a dynasty and will control the league for the next 3-5 seasons. By that point, Paul may already be breaking down and younger teams (Wolves-Warriors-Thunder) will be blocking his quest for a championship. I hope I'm wrong... I'm still penciling the Clips into the WCF... but gun to my head I don't see how he can conceivably win a title on the Clippers or where he could go that would put him in a better position than with an elite big like Blake.



I completely disagree. First of all, Wade is a poor example because his resume pre-LeBron prevents anyone from questioning his greatness. He's got his chip as the "alpha dog" as you put it. You'd have to take a look at a more traditional robin like Scottie Pippen or Kevin McHale. Rings definately elevate players in the eyes of masses and "alpha dogs" get a bulk of the credit.


Well using McHale and Pipp they were "sidekicks" on championship squads but still great players and go down as some of the greatest ever at their positions.

Contrast that with Zeek for ex who was the leader of a multiple champion with classic finals games and he doesn't make most people's top 5 pg's.

So basically even though winning as the man carries a lot of weight I think there's a lot of other variables that go into all time ranking.

Personally if he gets a ring in any capacity I put him right behind J Kidd all time.

naps
03-27-2013, 05:19 PM
Some really good, really surprising answers. I tend to agree with everyone that I think he's on the path to being a top 5 all-time point guard based on his numbers alone. If Stockton and Oscar are top 5 guys with relatively little postseason success, than Paul will be as well when his career is complete. That being said, I would like to see him win a title at some point. He's so underrated when people talk about players of this era, and I would just like to see him get his due.

That's a news to me. CP3 is regularly mentioned in the top 3 list or top 5 at worse. Most people have him as the best PG in the league by a distant margin. I don't get how he's underrated.

ThaDubs
03-27-2013, 05:29 PM
He's already the greatest 6 ft player ever. As for point guards in general, definitely top 5, possibly top 3 or 2. He's already one of the best perimeter defenders the league has ever seen, and he's on course to extend his NBA record for steals titles in a career.

justinnum1
03-27-2013, 05:38 PM
tough question. especially with these new hybrid PG's

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2013, 06:06 PM
CP3 has already proved that he can make a bad team great twice, once with NO, and now again with LAC. These were lottery teams before his arrival, and he helped make them contenders. He is an elite defender at his position, and he is a much better shooter than some other PGs with rings (Isiah Thomas for example).

I think, if CP3 doesn't win a ring, most people will be reluctant to put him ahead of Thomas, but I think, so long as he can maintain his level of play for a few seasons, that he will have established himself as the better PG of the two. Thomas had a quick decline, and it seems that CP3 may have as well. He is only 27 and already we are seeing his numbers slide. He's never been a big scorer, but careen scoring averages in the mid-high teens don't usually bode well for guys without a ring (see Kevin Johnson and Mark Price). Some really great PGs get over looked because of their lack of a ring.

That said, I think CP3 is better than Thomas. If both were 21 years old and you gave me my choice, I'd take CP3 every time.

Stockton and Magic are clearly ahead of CP3, as is the Big O (if you consider him a PG). I would have a problem with anybody who put CP3 are 4 or 5 all time, though I'm not ready to put him there myself, though I do certainly think he is top ten all time for his position already.

mightybosstone
03-27-2013, 06:24 PM
That's a news to me. CP3 is regularly mentioned in the top 3 list or top 5 at worse. Most people have him as the best PG in the league by a distant margin. I don't get how he's underrated.
When people talk about greats of the last 10 years, though, you'll see a lot more people talk about Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett and Dirk. And now it feels like people are quick to talk about the greatness of Lebron and Durant, but few want to talk about the sustained greatness of Paul. That's not to say that most people don't view him as easily one of the five best players every year for probably the last 5-6 seasons. But I just feel like he's not spoken in the same conversations as other players because he hasn't had many big postseason moments.