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View Full Version : Should ANY player be allowed to use 50% of his teams poss. in "clutch" situations?



Chronz
03-26-2013, 02:08 AM
We all have our idea of what constitutes as a clutch possession, but we can all agree, when games are tight (say within 2 or 3 possessions) down the stretch, those qualify as pretty clutch moments.

It is in these situations that a player who shall be nameless sports an incredible 50% usage rate. Every other possession is his direct contribution to his team.

I think thats taking hero ball to a whole new level.

Jimmer55
03-26-2013, 02:12 AM
It's called having BALLS. The TRULY GREAT ones BEG for the ball in the CLUTCH. BEG for it. SALIVATE waiting for it. Guess who doesn't do that? Guess who didn't do that on the biggest stage in basketball against the Mavs? GUESS WHO?

Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird...TRUE GREATS. PUT IT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND SAID TO HELL WITH THE HATERS AND FRONTRUNNERS.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 02:16 AM
I disagree completely, I highly doubt the players you mentioned hogged the ball to this degree in similar situations. 2 of those guys were known as team first players who could kill you with the pass on top of the shot. The other being the most efficient scorer to ever play the game. And even then I dont think he would take it at quite this level but I'll check the numbers.

But since its out in the open, heres the article:
Lakers in the clutch


http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2013/03/25/lakers-crunch-time-usage-rates-tell-a-story-that-needs-revising/

Jimmer55
03-26-2013, 02:19 AM
I want a player that will go down GUNS BLAZING. Not a scared quitter.

el hidalgo
03-26-2013, 02:20 AM
Never. "Hero ball" is garbage. There are always better options than going ISO. Ball movement and finding the open man is the obvious choice.

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 02:29 AM
That is a crazy high percent. I want the player who is going to make the right play majority of the time, and a lot of times the right play is to take it yourself if your the star (although 50% seems a little ridiculous).

Bruno
03-26-2013, 02:34 AM
no. and less so because the elites can't handle it, but more so because it becomes predictable.

balance is too important.

b@llhog24
03-26-2013, 02:37 AM
Maybe Cp3, but even still I'm inclined to say no.

Bruno
03-26-2013, 02:37 AM
although, winning forgives a lot. do we know the +/- of the nameless player in 2-3 possession games? or come from behind winning percentage? or whatever stat that could measure success rate in 2-3 possession games despite 50% USG?

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 02:46 AM
although, winning forgives a lot. do we know the +/- of the nameless player in 2-3 possession games? or come from behind winning percentage? or whatever stat that could measure success rate in 2-3 possession games despite 50% USG?

In the article it just states that they haven't been awful down the stretch and that one of the main reasons their season turned around is improved play during this time. Also that Kobe, Nash (ts% 74.1) and Dwight have played well during crunch time, mentioning dwight has played great d especially.

Bruno
03-26-2013, 02:48 AM
In the article it just states that they haven't been awful down the stretch and that one of the main reasons their season turned around is improved play during this time. Also that Kobe, Nash (ts% 74.1) and Dwight have played well during crunch time, mentioning dwight has played great d especially.

thanks.

is this an insider article? if it isn't can you post the link?

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 02:48 AM
thanks.

is this an insider article? if it isn't can you post the link?

http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2013/03/25/lakers-crunch-time-usage-rates-tell-a-story-that-needs-revising/ - via chronz

Bruno
03-26-2013, 02:51 AM
http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2013/03/25/lakers-crunch-time-usage-rates-tell-a-story-that-needs-revising/ - via chronz

thanks/my bad chronz. missed the link at the bottom of your post.

b@llhog24
03-26-2013, 02:53 AM
thanks.

is this an insider article? if it isn't can you post the link?

It's in Chronz's post.

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2013, 10:00 AM
A coach should never pick the same guy every time. 50% of the time? Sure. If you have a guy like Jordan who you know can create and hit important shots, go with him, but still set up a play to get other guys open incase he struggles. Jordan twice passed off the last second shot in a finals series, once to Paxson and once to Kerr, and the team won both times. Try to get the best shot possible regardless of who gets it, and if the defence is smothering, rely on your franchise player. That is why you are paying them.

Gusy like: Bird, Jordan, Miller... I'd give them the last second shot 50% of the time easily.

Faneik
03-26-2013, 10:48 AM
It's called having BALLS. The TRULY GREAT ones BEG for the ball in the CLUTCH. BEG for it. SALIVATE waiting for it. Guess who doesn't do that? Guess who didn't do that on the biggest stage in basketball against the Mavs? GUESS WHO?

Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird...TRUE GREATS. PUT IT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND SAID TO HELL WITH THE HATERS AND FRONTRUNNERS.

finishing games is not about cojones. it's about finding the play that will give you a good look at the basket.

kobe is a huge threat if you are desperate for a basket. he has range, can drive, an make ft's. the thing he lacks in these situations is trusting his teammates the ball.

but hey, if you like contested fade-away 3pt shots to win the game... it's on you.

TheLegend
03-26-2013, 11:21 AM
We all have our idea of what constitutes as a clutch possession, but we can all agree, when games are tight (say within 2 or 3 possessions) down the stretch, those qualify as pretty clutch moments.

It is in these situations that a player who shall be nameless sports an incredible 50% usage rate. Every other possession is his direct contribution to his team.

I think thats taking hero ball to a whole new level.

Hero ball? No!! Not even! It's called putting the ball in the hands of ur star player and letting him lead ur team to a "w". That's why he gets paid the big contract. Nothing wrong with that. It's been like that throughout the history of the game and will continue.

ManRam
03-26-2013, 11:35 AM
Hero ball? No!! Not even! It's called putting the ball in the hands of ur star player and letting him lead ur team to a "w". That's why he gets paid the big contract. Nothing wrong with that. It's been like that throughout the history of the game and will continue.

why bother putting a team out there then? i mean, "hero ball" statistically works far less often than not. it's a cool theory/notion to have: putting the ball in the hands of your best play, but the open man is always better than head-down and go.

TheLegend
03-26-2013, 01:03 PM
why bother putting a team out there then? i mean, "hero ball" statistically works far less often than not. it's a cool theory/notion to have: putting the ball in the hands of your best play, but the open man is always better than head-down and go.

You always pass to the open man. But at the end of the game, teams buckle down and play defense so it's likely you won't have a open shooter so easily. So therefore you give the ball to your superstar and let him make a play. That could be drawing a double team and creating an open shot for a teammate, or takin advantage of a mismatch he may have. But at the end of game, you want to give the ball to your superstar and let him make a play. He doesn't have to shoot it, it could be a pass to someone that's open.

4milesperday
03-26-2013, 01:21 PM
Can't be Kobe, he hugs the ball atleast 90 percent in those situations. The Lakers miss Derek Fisher, only player that knows how to catch Kobe's eye for a pass.

4milesperday
03-26-2013, 01:29 PM
As legend will have it, Kobe was once playing a friendly game in China, all the amateurs were excited to get a pass from Kobe but it never happened. Well, the next game, a rule was instituted without Kobe's knowledge and by early second quarter a Chinese ref approached Kobe and said "u shoe sebenten tams hia, u go now"

RenegadeRiot36
03-26-2013, 01:33 PM
If you've ever seen the Cavs play, you know that if they could give Kyrie the ball more than 100%of the time, they would. Even 1-5 hes still their best option. This, however, comes from the lack of anyone else that can create their own shot besides Waiters, who usually chucks up bad threes at the end of games anyway.

zn23
03-26-2013, 01:34 PM
finishing games is not about cojones. it's about finding the play that will give you a good look at the basket.

kobe is a huge threat if you are desperate for a basket. he has range, can drive, an make ft's. the thing he lacks in these situations is trusting his teammates the ball.

but hey, if you like contested fade-away 3pt shots to win the game... it's on you.

bingo!

The reason for that is because he pays careful attention of the media's perception of him. By passing the ball he would destroy the image that his sycophants have of him as being a "killer".

Kobe knows that the right thing to do is pass the ball in the clutch, does he care though? nope.

DumDum
03-26-2013, 01:44 PM
No and kobe should stop he's breeding Generation of bad basketball players

5ass
03-26-2013, 01:48 PM
I want a player that will go down GUNS BLAZING. Not a scared quitter.

Lol only u can turn trusting ur teammates into something negative. Anything to make kobe look better.

ackar
03-26-2013, 01:48 PM
So is this post saying you don't want the best player on the team taking the shots in crunch time? Is that the argument being made here? There are times when a player should give the ball up but if everyone else is scared or hesitant or just plain bricking keep the ball in the hands of the player who will not only take the shot but have a good chance of making it.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 02:43 PM
Hero ball? No!! Not even! It's called putting the ball in the hands of ur star player and letting him lead ur team to a "w". That's why he gets paid the big contract. Nothing wrong with that. It's been like that throughout the history of the game and will continue.

So why even pass the ball? Why not have him take 100% of his teams possessions?

Chronz
03-26-2013, 02:46 PM
So is this post saying you don't want the best player on the team taking the shots in crunch time? Is that the argument being made here? There are times when a player should give the ball up but if everyone else is scared or hesitant or just plain bricking keep the ball in the hands of the player who will not only take the shot but have a good chance of making it.

Its more of a ratio question. Are you comfortable with your star taking every shot in situations where the game is within a few possessions, would you want him taking every other shot, 40%, 30%. I know its more complicated than that but just giving a rough estimate, how differently do you want your offense to be run in the clutch?

TheLegend
03-26-2013, 02:58 PM
So why even pass the ball? Why not have him take 100% of his teams possessions?

Basketball is a team sport, but at the end of a tight game, it's pretty self explanatory why you put the ball in ur best players hands. If u can't grasp the concept then u simply don't understand how the game works

ackar
03-26-2013, 03:24 PM
Its more of a ratio question. Are you comfortable with your star taking every shot in situations where the game is within a few possessions, would you want him taking every other shot, 40%, 30%. I know its more complicated than that but just giving a rough estimate, how differently do you want your offense to be run in the clutch?

You have to miss a lot of clutch shots to make the ones you do. I would be comfortable but I also would have other options but if the other guys are not stepping up you go with the known factor. Why did Kerr and Horry hit those big shots because they were ready. But if you only have one possession left I am riding with my guy.

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 03:24 PM
Basketball is a team sport, but at the end of a tight game, it's pretty self explanatory why you put the ball in ur best players hands. If u can't grasp the concept then u simply don't understand how the game works

But if one player is taking 50 percent of the shots, the offense can become stagnant and the defense will have a much easier time because they know what's coming. I'm not saying it is necessarily wrong but 50% of the shots come crunch time of close games is a lot.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2013, 03:46 PM
Never.

The very last shot? yes they should take it 50% of the time ( but always check if there is someone open).

The clutch time? Never.

The fourth quarter ? never.

And yeah, Nameless player is a disgrace in that regard, for each game he wins doing it, team loses 4 or 5, including some FINALS.

But of course his fan boys wont listen to number, just to he won 40 games doing it ( forgetting he tried it in 200)

ThaDubs
03-26-2013, 04:17 PM
Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird...TRUE GREATS. PUT IT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND SAID TO HELL WITH THE HATERS AND FRONTRUNNERS.

How'd that work for you last night?

ztilzer31
03-26-2013, 04:51 PM
It's called having BALLS. The TRULY GREAT ones BEG for the ball in the CLUTCH. BEG for it. SALIVATE waiting for it. Guess who doesn't do that? Guess who didn't do that on the biggest stage in basketball against the Mavs? GUESS WHO?

Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird...TRUE GREATS. PUT IT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND SAID TO HELL WITH THE HATERS AND FRONTRUNNERS.

How dare you put Bird/Magic/Jordan on that list with Kobe. The difference is Bird wanted the ball in his hands but if he was double teamed he was more than willing to pass the ball. Same with Magic. You act like Magic never dumped it off for a game winner. I want to know how many game winning assists Kobe has in his career.

Sly Guy
03-26-2013, 06:00 PM
We all have our idea of what constitutes as a clutch possession, but we can all agree, when games are tight (say within 2 or 3 possessions) down the stretch, those qualify as pretty clutch moments.

It is in these situations that a player who shall be nameless sports an incredible 50% usage rate. Every other possession is his direct contribution to his team.

I think thats taking hero ball to a whole new level.

I think it's ******** too. It's predictable, and at the top level, everyone's been a star at one point or another, and everyone is well schooled as to what needs to happen. You don't make the NBA without BALLS.

Delrayhc
03-26-2013, 06:12 PM
It's called having BALLS. The TRULY GREAT ones BEG for the ball in the CLUTCH. BEG for it. SALIVATE waiting for it. Guess who doesn't do that? Guess who didn't do that on the biggest stage in basketball against the Mavs? GUESS WHO?

Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird...TRUE GREATS. PUT IT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND SAID TO HELL WITH THE HATERS AND FRONTRUNNERS.

I hppe you put as much time and effort towards your family as you do crying about Lebron.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 06:55 PM
Basketball is a team sport, but at the end of a tight game, it's pretty self explanatory why you put the ball in ur best players hands. If u can't grasp the concept then u simply don't understand how the game works
We are talking about the end, I dont believe basketball stops becoming a team sport during the final minutes.

Again, why even pass the ball? Why not let him shoot ALL the time?

Not convinced you know the game as well as you think you do. I think a usage rate this high is absurd, its one thing to put the ball in your best players hands, quite another to ignore your teammates altogether.

TheLegend
03-26-2013, 08:38 PM
But if one player is taking 50 percent of the shots, the offense can become stagnant and the defense will have a much easier time because they know what's coming. I'm not saying it is necessarily wrong but 50% of the shots come crunch time of close games is a lot.

Who said he had to take the shots? If he has a mismatch, then sure. But often he puts pressure on the defense and just as easily making the winning assist. Doesn't have to always be a shot.

TheLegend
03-26-2013, 08:44 PM
We are talking about the end, I dont believe basketball stops becoming a team sport during the final minutes.

Again, why even pass the ball? Why not let him shoot ALL the time?

Not convinced you know the game as well as you think you do. I think a usage rate this high is absurd, its one thing to put the ball in your best players hands, quite another to ignore your teammates altogether.


I guess you still don't get the point.. I tried to explain it to you. So I'll let someone else try to explain it to you. Maybe they have the time and can break it down better than I can.


To anybody able to explain it to this guy feel free and thanks lol

Hawkeye15
03-26-2013, 08:54 PM
If you want to lose most of those close games, by all means, let the defense know exactly what you plan on doing in those situations.

Its ludicrous to allow that usage in "clutch" situations.

TheLegend
03-26-2013, 08:56 PM
If you want to lose most of those close games, by all means, let the defense know exactly what you plan on doing in those situations.

Its ludicrous to allow that usage in "clutch" situations.


Lol doesn't matter If the defense can't stop the guy. Jordan's bulls won many games this way and in the playoffs.

amos1er
03-26-2013, 09:05 PM
We all have our idea of what constitutes as a clutch possession, but we can all agree, when games are tight (say within 2 or 3 possessions) down the stretch, those qualify as pretty clutch moments.

It is in these situations that a player who shall be nameless sports an incredible 50% usage rate. Every other possession is his direct contribution to his team.

I think thats taking hero ball to a whole new level.

Well, considering "hero ball" is the only reason the Lakers are in the playoffs right now...I would say yes. If the team or the coaching isn't getting the job done...then it's time to go with something that is more proven. The Lakers would be below .500 right now if not for hero ball. The Hawks and Raptors comebacks would never have happened if not for "hero ball" There was even a game in Golden State earlier in the season where The Lakers were done for sure if not for "hero ball". What about the fact that Kobe is getting career assist numbers during most of these games you are referring to. Kobe is doing his best to facilitate and play in a more team oriented fashion. When that is failing, he is going to do whatever gives his team the best chance of winning. Why not blame D'Antoni for not figuring out how to use Pau and Dwight together successfully. That to me is the main reason for the Lakers struggles.

amos1er
03-26-2013, 09:06 PM
How dare you put Bird/Magic/Jordan on that list with Kobe. The difference is Bird wanted the ball in his hands but if he was double teamed he was more than willing to pass the ball. Same with Magic. You act like Magic never dumped it off for a game winner. I want to know how many game winning assists Kobe has in his career.

Do your own research.

nickdymez
03-26-2013, 09:13 PM
Is the nameless player Kobe Bryant?

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 09:14 PM
Who said he had to take the shots? If he has a mismatch, then sure. But often he puts pressure on the defense and just as easily making the winning assist. Doesn't have to always be a shot.

That's what the article is saying, Kobe is currently doing that. He is shooting the ball or turning it over on 50% of the time at the end of tight games. I agree that he doesn't have to take the shots, but he currently is. I don't think it has hurt the lakers much if at all, but 50% of possessions is a ton.

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 09:15 PM
Is the nameless player Kobe Bryant?

yes

amos1er
03-26-2013, 09:17 PM
Is the nameless player Kobe Bryant?

Yup...by referring to him as "the nameless player" he is attempting to conceal his trolling.

nickdymez
03-26-2013, 09:18 PM
yes

Thanks bro... :hi5:

nickdymez
03-26-2013, 09:19 PM
Yup...by referring to him as "the nameless player" he is attempting to conceal his trolling.

Thats what i figured.. That Chronz is a ninja!

mngopher35
03-26-2013, 09:20 PM
Well, considering "hero ball" is the only reason the Lakers are in the playoffs right now...I would say yes. If the team or the coaching isn't getting the job done...then it's time to go with something that is more proven. The Lakers would be below .500 right now if not for hero ball. The Hawks and Raptors comebacks would never have happened if not for "hero ball" There was even a game in Golden State earlier in the season where The Lakers were done for sure if not for "hero ball". What about the fact that Kobe is getting career assist numbers during most of these games you are referring to. Kobe is doing his best to facilitate and play in a more team oriented fashion. When that is failing, he is going to do whatever gives his team the best chance of winning. Why not blame D'Antoni for not figuring out how to use Pau and Dwight together successfully. That to me is the main reason for the Lakers struggles.

I mostly agree with this. He has won games, and lost games by shooting a ton in these situations but I put blame on the coach. Would it be great if they ran offensive sets with nash, dwight and or pau? Yes, but so far dantoni hasn't been able to put together a working offense. This has lead to Kobe trying to just do it all on his own because they haven't really figured out a way to get all of their players to work together. Nash has actually been pretty good in these situations so I do think he should get the ball a little more (but then again a lot of his success comes from getting the ball open because of kobe).

amos1er
03-26-2013, 09:21 PM
Thats what i figured.. That Chronz is a ninja!

That he is. I am going to have to remember that trick if I ever feel like starting a Lebron thread in the future.

amos1er
03-26-2013, 09:28 PM
I mostly agree with this. He has won games, and lost games by shooting a ton in these situations but I put blame on the coach. Would it be great if they ran offensive sets with nash, dwight and or pau? Yes, but so far dantoni hasn't been able to put together a working offense. This has lead to Kobe trying to just do it all on his own because they haven't really figured out a way to get all of their players to work together. Nash has actually been pretty good in these situations so I do think he should get the ball a little more (but then again a lot of his success comes from getting the ball open because of kobe).

I agree. D'Antoni has been a horrible coach all year long. The Lakers main weapon is their two 7 footers...and Kobe of course. But Kobe is going to get his regardless, so it's on the coach to run sets that benefit their greatest strength. D'Antoni just wasn't the right guy for the job. Guess thats not his fault as much as it was Jim Buss' for hiring him in the first place, especially when Phil Jackson (GOAT coach) was willing to take the job. I don't like hero ball that much either, but when the Lakers are down 20 and D'Antoni's offense if failing...there is nothing else left to do. I agree that it is like by the sword die by the sword with Kobe at times, but the Lakers are in these horrible situations even more than I have ever remembered. Often times they are down a grip and then at the end of the game they are only in a position to win because of some incredible/impossible shots that Kobe has made. When Kobe is in that zone, and gets the team back in the game, it's kind of hard for him to go back to the team concept that got them down by 20 to begin with. Honestly, if D'Antoni knew how to coach defense, Kobe's hero ball would work more often that it is failing. This is the worst D I have ever seen the Lakers play in a long time.

ztilzer31
03-26-2013, 09:29 PM
That he is. I am going to have to remember that trick if I ever feel like starting a Lebron thread in the future.

Dude everything you do in this website is trolling lol. Your sig in itself is a giant troll.

You believe LBJ is on steroids with 0 facts, and you believe Kobe is the GOAT while ignoring facts.

amos1er
03-26-2013, 09:34 PM
Dude everything you do in this website is trolling lol. Your sig in itself is a giant troll.

You believe LBJ is on steroids with 0 facts, and you believe Kobe is the GOAT while ignoring facts.

I believe there is a strong possibility that Lebron is on PED's yes. Do I believe he is for sure? Impossible to say. Of all the players in the NBA, if anyone was on anything, it would be Lebron and thats not really an out of line statement. Thats really not that big of a allegation to make considering all the great athletes we have seen go down in recent years. From Barry Bonds to Lance Armstorng, no one would have ever suspected them either until they got caught. BTW, those two did not even come close to exhibiting the classic signs of PED use that Lebron displays. Now a days, everyone is a suspect because of what we have seen in ALL OTHER SPORTS. Why is basketball the only sport where it can't be possible? Now that they will be testing for PED's next season finally, things should get interesting.

I never said Kobe was the GOAT...I have him at #6 in my all time list. Stop putting words in my mouth.

KnicksorBust
03-26-2013, 09:36 PM
Depends on how we define "clutch" situations. If we go by the last 5 minutes of a close game then that's absurd and I'm in agreement with the majority of posters in the thread. If we go by the last 2-3 posessions of a game then it becomes significantly less outrageous. Especially when that play is a true superstar that can post-up/drive/shoot/pass by reading the defense.

3RDASYSTEM
03-26-2013, 09:54 PM
Well, considering "hero ball" is the only reason the Lakers are in the playoffs right now...I would say yes. If the team or the coaching isn't getting the job done...then it's time to go with something that is more proven. The Lakers would be below .500 right now if not for hero ball. The Hawks and Raptors comebacks would never have happened if not for "hero ball" There was even a game in Golden State earlier in the season where The Lakers were done for sure if not for "hero ball". What about the fact that Kobe is getting career assist numbers during most of these games you are referring to. Kobe is doing his best to facilitate and play in a more team oriented fashion. When that is failing, he is going to do whatever gives his team the best chance of winning. Why not blame D'Antoni for not figuring out how to use Pau and Dwight together successfully. That to me is the main reason for the Lakers struggles.

I find it quite funny that this same hero ball we speak of is the same **** PHIL was speaking on when he said BEAN 'screws' up the offensive flow, the triangle is no diff. than MIKE D system on the 'passing/ballmovement' aspect of it, its why SHAQ called him a 'hero ballhog' and others like SMUSH/PHIL, its not this yr, he's been playing hero ball since those airballs in UTAH 98' playoffs(2nd yr as backupguard)

had it not been for SHAQ and a allstar version PAU he would only hero ball his teams to 34-42wins max

and with this team talent he's challenging that SMUSH/KWAME team w-l record, doing the same thing .hero ball'ing it up

his impact is mild impact scoring and hero ball, no wonder he was a backup to JONES, he could do more

what I mean by mild impact scoring is when I watch him for most part they be down 15-20 pts and then he goes off and cuts the lead to maybe at best 8-9pts to only watch it go back up or they lose by that margin....why down so many in first place? that kind of scoring is mild impact in my book, more for box office-Hollywood ESPN type ****....*********** type ****

to me he's the same player from 98' to 00' to 04' to 08' to current player, only diff. is minutes played, you know like how a backup guard goes from like 20mpg to like 38mpg...a fulltime starter role

Now with another no1 option type in SHAQ/PAU it covered it up since you could run offense thru them more or equally but it had more hardwood impact because of the passing ability willingness of those type of bigs,plus they defend better when they are getting touches and playmaking and plus SHAQ could do what he wanted to do on the court from 92-06 basically, not to mention he had 2 of the most clutch players ever in HORRY/FISHER, and even played with a clutch RICE for a yr in 2000...VAN EXEL was even clutch

his hero ball ran off SHAQ-BYNUM-basically PAU and now basically HOWARD, and he had to take NASH's game just to fit in with the players they brought in to plug the holes and they had him all along in BEAN(good luck NASH), all for the love of 'hero ball'

Chronz
03-26-2013, 10:15 PM
Yup...by referring to him as "the nameless player" he is attempting to conceal his trolling.

I named him in post 3. This thread was suppose to be about a philosophical stance on the situation in light of Kobe's play this year. Sorry but criticism isn't trolling, unless you have that much of a chub for him.

I wish more Laker fans would be like the author of the article that mentions Kobe's play this year. Now thats a objective fan.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 10:20 PM
I mostly agree with this. He has won games, and lost games by shooting a ton in these situations but I put blame on the coach. Would it be great if they ran offensive sets with nash, dwight and or pau? Yes, but so far dantoni hasn't been able to put together a working offense. This has lead to Kobe trying to just do it all on his own because they haven't really figured out a way to get all of their players to work together. Nash has actually been pretty good in these situations so I do think he should get the ball a little more (but then again a lot of his success comes from getting the ball open because of kobe).

You know what pisses me off, when MD calls a timeout to set up an isolation play ( at least thats what the play ends up being, no idea if its what he actually called), why not just let your star find the ball and attack in transition. But no, he calls a TO so that defenses can set up shop.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 10:23 PM
Who said he had to take the shots? If he has a mismatch, then sure. But often he puts pressure on the defense and just as easily making the winning assist. Doesn't have to always be a shot.

Then your not paying attention to the premise of this thread, we aren't talking about passing, but accounting for the possession by way of usage%. I can tell these modern terms are confusing for you but those involve a players direct contribution (not by passing).


I guess you still don't get the point.. I tried to explain it to you. So I'll let someone else try to explain it to you. Maybe they have the time and can break it down better than I can.


To anybody able to explain it to this guy feel free and thanks lol
LMFAO thats rich. Sorry but you would have to be the one to break it down because Im pretty sure your the only who doesn't understand the premise of the thread, read above for proof of this.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 10:26 PM
Well, considering "hero ball" is the only reason the Lakers are in the playoffs right now...I would say yes. If the team or the coaching isn't getting the job done...then it's time to go with something that is more proven. The Lakers would be below .500 right now if not for hero ball. The Hawks and Raptors comebacks would never have happened if not for "hero ball" There was even a game in Golden State earlier in the season where The Lakers were done for sure if not for "hero ball". What about the fact that Kobe is getting career assist numbers during most of these games you are referring to. Kobe is doing his best to facilitate and play in a more team oriented fashion. When that is failing, he is going to do whatever gives his team the best chance of winning. Why not blame D'Antoni for not figuring out how to use Pau and Dwight together successfully. That to me is the main reason for the Lakers struggles.

Thats your opinion but we dont know how the team would have fared if someone else had the opportunity. Like that Washington game in the 4th was a pure disgrace from a fan of team play. I mean, the Lakers go from having one of the best offenses all decade to the biggest dropoff in clutch situations, thats pretty telling. The guy loves his hero moments.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-26-2013, 10:44 PM
It's called having BALLS. The TRULY GREAT ones BEG for the ball in the CLUTCH. BEG for it. SALIVATE waiting for it. Guess who doesn't do that? Guess who didn't do that on the biggest stage in basketball against the Mavs? GUESS WHO?

Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird...TRUE GREATS. PUT IT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND SAID TO HELL WITH THE HATERS AND FRONTRUNNERS.
Great post.

I disagree completely, I highly doubt the players you mentioned hogged the ball to this degree in similar situations. 2 of those guys were known as team first players who could kill you with the pass on top of the shot. The other being the most efficient scorer to ever play the game. And even then I dont think he would take it at quite this level but I'll check the numbers.

But since its out in the open, heres the article:
Lakers in the clutch


http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2013/03/25/lakers-crunch-time-usage-rates-tell-a-story-that-needs-revising/
Obvious troll is obvious.


I want a player that will go down GUNS BLAZING. Not a scared quitter.
This

How'd that work for you last night?

Lol keep talking trash Dubs. Let me know when you make it out of the first round.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-26-2013, 10:47 PM
I believe there is a strong possibility that Lebron is on PED's yes. Do I believe he is for sure? Impossible to say. Of all the players in the NBA, if anyone was on anything, it would be Lebron and thats not really an out of line statement. Thats really not that big of a allegation to make considering all the great athletes we have seen go down in recent years. From Barry Bonds to Lance Armstorng, no one would have ever suspected them either until they got caught. BTW, those two did not even come close to exhibiting the classic signs of PED use that Lebron displays. Now a days, everyone is a suspect because of what we have seen in ALL OTHER SPORTS. Why is basketball the only sport where it can't be possible? Now that they will be testing for PED's next season finally, things should get interesting.

I never said Kobe was the GOAT...I have him at #6 in my all time list. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Yet another solid posting by amos1er.

Chronz
03-26-2013, 10:49 PM
Obvious troll is obvious.

Who? The Laker fan that created the article?

Let me know when you have some FACTS. Until then, you shouldn't call anyone a troll Mr+1

ztilzer31
03-26-2013, 11:08 PM
Great post.

Obvious troll is obvious.


This


Lol keep talking trash Dubs. Let me know when you make it out of the first round.

How is he trolling? He hasn't trolled once this entire time. He's giving you facts as to why the Lakers aren't clutch, and how Kobe Bryant is a big reason behind it. You don't have any facts of your own so you call blasphemy.

Overall it's a dumb point to bring up. This has been occurring forever on the Lakers with Kobe. The truth is Kobe shoots a lot of dumb shots in the 4th quarter. He also shoots them early in the shot clock. This has been explained by every major sports news program in the world, but Lakers fans still seem to disagree with statistical data.

ztilzer31
03-26-2013, 11:13 PM
I believe there is a strong possibility that Lebron is on PED's yes. Do I believe he is for sure? Impossible to say. Of all the players in the NBA, if anyone was on anything, it would be Lebron and thats not really an out of line statement. Thats really not that big of a allegation to make considering all the great athletes we have seen go down in recent years. From Barry Bonds to Lance Armstorng, no one would have ever suspected them either until they got caught. BTW, those two did not even come close to exhibiting the classic signs of PED use that Lebron displays. Now a days, everyone is a suspect because of what we have seen in ALL OTHER SPORTS. Why is basketball the only sport where it can't be possible? Now that they will be testing for PED's next season finally, things should get interesting.

I never said Kobe was the GOAT...I have him at #6 in my all time list. Stop putting words in my mouth.

1. Your signature doesn't exactly say that does it? It's pretty apparent you want to believe it so you do. In turn you try to convince others by throwing it on your sig.

2. You have no facts. No reason to believe LBJ does steroids. I've been over this with you. You think because of a tumor he had removed he's guaranteed to have used steroids which is hilarious. On top of that you also believe an Incarcerated Bob tweet. Talk about a reach dude. There's conspiracy theories that are more backed up then that ******** lol.

3. How would you know that it would be LBJ? It's not like he hasn't been huge since he was 15, and if LBJ did do steroids and get away with it it's very likely many other NBA players could be as well. That's including KOBE BRYANT! Steroids give you much more than just muscle mass in sports. Size isn't valid proof that he does steroids.

Overall the whole thing is stupid, and just screams homer on your signature, but hey... It's your signature bud. Put what you want on it.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2013, 11:29 PM
Lol doesn't matter If the defense can't stop the guy. Jordan's bulls won many games this way and in the playoffs.

Show me where MJ had 50% usage in those moments. And way to pick the one outlier of all time....

Hawkeye15
03-26-2013, 11:32 PM
Its a statistical fact that Kobe's hero ball kills his teams efficiency in closing moments. I would challenge anyone to prove otherwise over the duration of his career. The Lakers offense falls 20+ points per 100 possessions, and he shoots 30% in those situations, below what many other stars shoot, whose teams actually run a play to keep the defense honest.

Fire away is the easiest way to lose. Want to know why his team has won so much? Because he is awesome, and has had the amazing help to make sure teams are put away early, and the Lakers haven't had to be put in those situations as often as soooooooo many think.

lol, please
03-27-2013, 12:09 AM
We all have our idea of what constitutes as a clutch possession, but we can all agree, when games are tight (say within 2 or 3 possessions) down the stretch, those qualify as pretty clutch moments.

It is in these situations that a player who shall be nameless sports an incredible 50% usage rate. Every other possession is his direct contribution to his team.

I think thats taking hero ball to a whole new level.

If your name is Kobe and you play for the Lakers, then yes.





















:laugh:

lol, please
03-27-2013, 12:11 AM
How'd that work for you last night?

:clap: :clap:

Kashmir13579
03-27-2013, 12:25 AM
Its a statistical fact that Kobe's hero ball kills his teams efficiency in closing moments. I would challenge anyone to prove otherwise over the duration of his career. The Lakers offense falls 20+ points per 100 possessions, and he shoots 30% in those situations, below what many other stars shoot, whose teams actually run a play to keep the defense honest.

Fire away is the easiest way to lose. Want to know why his team has won so much? Because he is awesome, and has had the amazing help to make sure teams are put away early, and the Lakers haven't had to be put in those situations as often as soooooooo many think.
this, completely

nice post bro, although its been said many times

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2013, 12:48 AM
Who? The Laker fan that created the article?

Let me know when you have some FACTS. Until then, you shouldn't call anyone a troll Mr+1

Claim what thy will.

ThaDubs
03-27-2013, 12:49 AM
Illusionist you're a joke. Anything can happen regardless of who we're matched up against. If we match up with the Clippers we're matched up with a team we went 3-1 against in the SS. Talk to me when the playoffs are a guarantee for you.

ThaDubs
03-27-2013, 12:51 AM
Mr+1

Lmao

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2013, 01:02 AM
Illusionist you're a joke. Anything can happen regardless of who we're matched up against. If we match up with the Clippers we're matched up with a team we went 3-1 against in the SS. Talk to me when the playoffs are a guarantee for you.
LOl. Poor kid, you actually sit there and believe you have a chance to win a ship this year don't you?

mngopher35
03-27-2013, 01:07 AM
LOl. Poor kid, you actually sit there and believe you have a chance to win a ship this year don't you?

This is hilarious coming from a lakers fan

el hidalgo
03-27-2013, 01:11 AM
LOl. Poor kid, you actually sit there and believe you have a chance to win a ship this year don't you?
I know you won't leave once the lakers fail to make the playoffs

LeperMessiah
03-27-2013, 02:01 AM
I dont think any player is good enough to take on every kind of defensive plan conceived and come out successful the way Jordan was.

ThaDubs
03-27-2013, 02:44 AM
Hahaha Illusionist... you're a tool.

RiceOnTheRun
03-27-2013, 05:37 AM
You're down 108-110. Which would you rather trust, a wide-open Ray Allen for the 3 or a contested Kobe fadeaway jumper? That being said, would you rather trust one of the greatest shooters of all time or try to play hero and shoot it on your own?

It's not being a coward. It's called winning.