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View Full Version : Lin-Sanity vs. Lin-Consistency?



jam
03-25-2013, 06:05 AM
Like a lot of sports fans, I've been following this kid's career ever since his breakout rise to fame with the knicks last season when he became one of the most famous people on the planet.

It's well known and a given by now that JLin generates strongly polarized debate and opinions, with few if none, able to 'objectively' analyze his game.

I'm a fan of his, no doubt, and believe that JLin is a future all star (who will post legitimate all star numbers rather than simply being voted in solely on the basis of popularity).

Having said that, I am completely mystified by his consistent inconsistency. Yes, there are factors which have slowed his progress.

1. He had knee surgery late last season.

2. He's playing for his third head coach within a year's time.

3. He's playing in a new system playing,

4. playing an unfamiliar role (off the ball, spot up shooting).


But those excuses are getting old now. He's nearly a season removed from knee surgery. He's had nearly a full season to get used to his new role, and to get used to playing second fiddle to harden.

He's shown great promise but then literally disappears. Here's his most recent 5 game stretch:

24/8
21/4
24/6
4/6
6/5

WTF??????

23 ppg, 6 apg over a 3 game stretch to 5 ppg and 5 apg the next two????

Granted, Lin has played limited minutes the last two games, but seriously, JLin's ups and downs just seem very odd. Discuss....

Mayweather&NYK
03-25-2013, 06:29 AM
no

gwrighter
03-25-2013, 07:50 AM
He was never necessarily an above average player to begin with. Now that the scouting report is out on him some guys are just going to have his # every game because they are flat out better than him at every aspect of the game.

benzni
03-25-2013, 08:07 AM
no

Responses like that ruin this forum. It's a good discussion. Something different than all of the lakers, heat, same old same old...

jam
03-25-2013, 08:11 AM
Responses like that ruin this forum. It's a good discussion. Something different than all of the lakers, heat, same old same old...

LOL, no doubt, but asking most of these guys to come up with an intelligent response is like asking lindsay lohan to stop drinking. :)

Anyway, back to the discussion, if that's what you want to call it.

Hey, there are only so many nba forums out there....

bholly
03-25-2013, 08:13 AM
"Lin-sistency", surely.

mightybosstone
03-25-2013, 10:50 AM
I'll admit he has been fairly inconsistent at times this season, but to understand why he isn't putting up crazy numbers every night, you really need to be watching the games. So much of his production is related to the limited minutes he's getting because of the extended minutes being given to solid backup Patrick Beverley. Beverley is the superior defender, so he often gets more minutes against teams like San Antonio, with superior point guard play. Also, sometimes his shot is falling when Lin's isn't, so McHale goes with the hot hand.

Sure, Lin has been inconsistent offensively, but which player in the NBA isn't? Everyone has bad nights. But if Lin were to improve on the defensive side of the ball, you wouldn't notice the offensive inconsistency as much because he'd be getting more minutes.

D-Leethal
03-25-2013, 11:26 AM
Enough with the ****ing knee surgery. Dude had 4 week rehab after surgery. Ronnie Brewer returned after 3. Lin and his fanboys were talking about the surgery over 32 weeks later. It was as minor a knee procedure as a knee procedure can get.

LAKobeBryant
03-25-2013, 11:32 AM
that 5 game stretch is small sample size. why don't you find the stats of the "insanity" last season and compare it to this season instead.

TheNumber37
03-25-2013, 11:43 AM
It looks like your expecting him to average 20 and 8.. Which I NEVER thought would happen.

As a starter, he can get 14 and 7... as a backup.. which he should be...
He could get 12 and 6 with 6th man consideration and fan favoritism.

Snakeyestx
03-25-2013, 11:53 AM
It's only his third year - they can't all be superstars like LeBron right out of the gate.

Houston has to look at this from several angles. We have a large asian population and we're coming off the heels of the Yao Ming era here. Yao was a marketing success despite his actual time on the floor. Lin is sort-of seen as the same kind of thing. The asian market dollars are huge, as seen with Yao, and I think we're banking on that popularity to bring in more international market interest.

Dennis Scott once said Consistant inconsistancy is still at least consistant in something. You can be one of three things : average every game, consistant inconstistantly with highs and lows, or consistantly terrible. Basically, where Lin is right now is the least of his problems.

Asking him to be Kobe or James in only his third year under a third coach under a new system with a young team is like asking someone to make love to a woman, on stage, in front of the queen of England, while on fire.

Are there better options out there? Sure. What does he bring to the table? Marketing, honesty, good work ethic, and he's not dependent as the #1 scoring option since the acquisition of Harden. We're deeper than we have been in a long time with both Beverly and Brooks, and to be honest, I think the AB signing was a way to bring a mentor to Lin on polishing his game. This just goes to show our GM's commitment to the guy in the long-term.

Kashmir13579
03-25-2013, 11:54 AM
Give him more time.

AWC713
03-25-2013, 12:22 PM
Give him more time.

this. people forget that the kid is only 24.

for the record, his last game he went up against parker.

yes, he "disappears" sometimes, but thats due to playing next to harden too. lin has hit some big shots for this team though. hes clearly the starting PG and a leader of this team, despite his "lin-consisency"

Blitzace137
03-25-2013, 02:42 PM
I'll admit he has been fairly inconsistent at times this season, but to understand why he isn't putting up crazy numbers every night, you really need to be watching the games. So much of his production is related to the limited minutes he's getting because of the extended minutes being given to solid backup Patrick Beverley. Beverley is the superior defender, so he often gets more minutes against teams like San Antonio, with superior point guard play. Also, sometimes his shot is falling when Lin's isn't, so McHale goes with the hot hand.

Sure, Lin has been inconsistent offensively, but which player in the NBA isn't? Everyone has bad nights. But if Lin were to improve on the defensive side of the ball, you wouldn't notice the offensive inconsistency as much because he'd be getting more minutes.

This is exactly the reason. IF your watching box scores you're not gonna be able to tell, anyone that watches the games, gets it. Beverley is a great defender Mchale takes him out the games Beverley is needed for defense. I don't think you'll see a more consistent Lin until next season he still needs to develop.

Blitzace137
03-25-2013, 02:44 PM
Enough with the ****ing knee surgery. Dude had 4 week rehab after surgery. Ronnie Brewer returned after 3. Lin and his fanboys were talking about the surgery over 32 weeks later. It was as minor a knee procedure as a knee procedure can get.

nobody's complaining about the knees anymore that doesn't seem to be an issue and people need to stop using Ronnie Brewer as an example. Ronnie Brewer started off great than fell of considerably and a large part of it was due to injury and him returning to early imo.

D-Leethal
03-25-2013, 02:49 PM
nobody's complaining about the knees anymore that doesn't seem to be an issue and people need to stop using Ronnie Brewer as an example. Ronnie Brewer started off great than fell of considerably and a large part of it was due to injury and him returning to early imo.

Ronnie played his best ball early when he was clearly still feeling the effects of his surgery. He got worse and worse as he got healthier and healthier, I don't really buy your theory.

But I mean to blame the knee when you have had over 8x the standard recovery time is a joke. I used Brewer because I saw it first hand - feel free to peruse down the list of guys who have gone through that surgery without an entire offseason to rehab and they usually make it back in 3-4 weeks and it doesn't take very long to get back into rhythm.

And I would hope nobody is talking about the 4 week surgery that took place last year. By the time the season started he had nearly enough time to recover from a ****ing ACL tear and he and his fanboys were blaming the 4 week surgery that happened 8 months prior - thats what I'm referring too. The surgery he had was as minor as it gets for knee procedures.

FOBolous
03-25-2013, 02:54 PM
Ronnie played his best ball early when he was clearly still feeling the effects of his surgery. He got worse and worse as he got healthier and healthier, I don't really buy your theory.

But I mean to blame the knee when you have had over 8x the standard recovery time is a joke. I used Brewer because I saw it first hand - feel free to peruse down the list of guys who have gone through that surgery without an entire offseason to rehab and they usually make it back in 3-4 weeks and it doesn't take very long to get back into rhythm.

And I would hope nobody is talking about the 4 week surgery that took place last year. By the time the season started he had nearly enough time to recover from a ****ing ACL tear and he and his fanboys were blaming the 4 week surgery that happened 8 months prior - thats what I'm referring too. The surgery he had was as minor as it gets for knee procedures.

stop bringing up the knee. nobody mentioned the knee in this thread...except for the OP and the OP added "But those excuses are getting old now." you're the only person that's making an issue out of his knee right now.

VendettaRed07
03-25-2013, 02:56 PM
Its easy for him to disappear when he doesn't have the ball. He doesn't offer much when he doesn't have it. So if he passes to ball off to harden, unless he is wide open its not likely for him to get it back because there are better options to go to.

He needs to command more and play like an aggressive PG every game. That Linsanity stretch happened because literally every good offensive option was injured, so he just spend the whole games attacking the basket, and kicking it out, etc.

D-Leethal
03-25-2013, 03:01 PM
stop bringing up the knee. nobody mentioned the knee in this thread...except for the OP and the OP added "But those excuses are getting old now." you're the only person that's making an issue out of his knee right now.

I brought it up once my dude, my second post was a response to Blitz. The knee excuse was old day 1 of this season is my point. I do think the rest of the points are all fair and should be used to acknowledge his slow start instead of the 4 week surgery last March that he probably could have conceivably been back in last years playoffs with, let alone this years regular season opener over half a year later.

If you don't want to discuss the surgery than don't quote my posts on the surgery to start a back and forth discussion. Ignore it and it won't be discussed. Takes two to tango my friend - I don't have conversations with myself on here.

Blitzace137
03-25-2013, 03:05 PM
Ronnie played his best ball early when he was clearly still feeling the effects of his surgery. He got worse and worse as he got healthier and healthier, I don't really buy your theory.

But I mean to blame the knee when you have had over 8x the standard recovery time is a joke. I used Brewer because I saw it first hand - feel free to peruse down the list of guys who have gone through that surgery without an entire offseason to rehab and they usually make it back in 3-4 weeks and it doesn't take very long to get back into rhythm.

And I would hope nobody is talking about the 4 week surgery that took place last year. By the time the season started he had nearly enough time to recover from a ****ing ACL tear and he and his fanboys were blaming the 4 week surgery that happened 8 months prior - thats what I'm referring too. The surgery he had was as minor as it gets for knee procedures.

I see what your saying but if you watched him play on a regular bases you would be able to tell as the months went by his explosiveness returned and it shows in his numbers as he got better every month. You factor that in with him adjusting to a new team and James Harden who they traded for right before the seasons start you would expect a drop off in numbers. For the first couple of months the kid looked lost because the Rockets basically had him standing in the corner for catch and shoots which you and I both know is not his game. Once he adjusted to Harden that's when the numbers starting to come up.

D-Leethal
03-25-2013, 03:06 PM
I see what your saying but if you watched him play on a regular bases you would be able to tell as the months went by his explosiveness returned and it shows in his numbers as he got better every month. You factor that in with him adjusting to a new team and James Harden who they traded for right before the seasons start you would expect a drop off in numbers. For the first couple of months the kid looked lost because the Rockets basically had him standing in the corner for catch and shoots which is not his game. Once he adjusted to Harden that's when the numbers starting to come up.

I agree and I think there are plenty of fair points and fair lines of reasoning to explain his slow start and his adjustment period - the knee surgery ain't one of them. Thats all I meant by that post.

FOBolous
03-25-2013, 03:09 PM
I brought it up once my dude, my second post was a response to Blitz. The knee excuse was old day 1 of this season is my point. I do think the rest of the points are all fair and should be used to acknowledge his slow start instead of the 4 week surgery last March that he probably could have conceivably been back in last years playoffs with, let alone this years regular season opener over half a year later.

If you don't want to discuss the surgery than don't quote my posts on the surgery to start a back and forth discussion. Ignore it and it won't be discussed. Takes two to tango my friend - I don't have conversations with myself on here.

the whole point of this thread is to move pass the excuses because "those excuses are getting old now" and to discuss why Lin's really not playing up to expectation. if you want to discuss his knees, create your own thread. otherwise, get back on topic.

D-Leethal
03-25-2013, 03:18 PM
the whole point of this thread is to move pass the excuses because "those excuses are getting old now" and to discuss why Lin's really not playing up to expectation. if you want to discuss his knees, create your own thread. otherwise, get back on topic.

My posts are very much on topic and a direct response to the OP who stated the knee surgery was a legitimate reason for his slow start and 1-2 month adjustment period, it was actually listed as the #1 reason. I disagreed with a point the OP made and stated my opinion on the matter.

My opinion for his inconsistency this late in this season? 1) He's a young, inexperienced PG - it comes with the territory, 2) Playing off a guy like Harden who loves to make plays with the ball in his hand is not easy for a PG whose spot shooting is not a strength and his production will probably have a lot to do with how hes shooting on that particular night - thus the streakyness of his box score production, 3) Like many said the coach doesn't trust him fully on defense and thus he gets benched for stretches against certain matchups who can exploit his inability to fight through screens effectively.

tp13baby
03-25-2013, 03:32 PM
He was never necessarily an above average player to begin with. Now that the scouting report is out on him some guys are just going to have his # every game because they are flat out better than him at every aspect of the game.

For example, Ty Lawson.

John Walls Era
03-25-2013, 05:37 PM
He was never necessarily an above average player to begin with. Now that the scouting report is out on him some guys are just going to have his # every game because they are flat out better than him at every aspect of the game.

players don't actually read that crap in the regular season. This isn't the NFL. No one is reading a scouting report every game for 82 games. its well documented that unless you're a top team, no one gives a ****.

KniCks4LiFe
03-25-2013, 06:30 PM
This is a trap thread, I can sense it.:eyebrow:

D-Leethal
03-25-2013, 06:34 PM
players don't actually read that crap in the regular season. This isn't the NFL. No one is reading a scouting report every game for 82 games. its well documented that unless you're a top team, no one gives a ****.

Teams employ advanced scouts to study, travel ahead and watch live the upcoming teams on the schedule during the season, and produce up-to-date scouting reports that teams most definitely go over, review, and simulate in walk thru's before each game. This is the pros my dude.

jam
03-29-2013, 08:04 AM
Rockets fans have been callin' for mchale's a-- for at least a year now. An amazing feat since he hasn't coached the rockets for much longer than that.

It's obvious kmac has no idea how to coach PG's or even guards for that matter. To put it concisely:

1. he doesn't have any idea of how to utilize guards, especially PG's.
2. his over-reliance on harden both in terms of minutes played and usage is really ridiculous.
3. his substitution patterns are completely random, and show no discernible, strategic pattern.
4. he has alienated every single quality PG he's ever coached
5. he constantly blames his players and never takes responsibility for a faulty game plan

I hate to say it, but mchale is just a s--- coach. I don't see what morey sees in him, to be honest.

YashBoone
03-29-2013, 08:10 AM
There is no debate on this.
There are people who say Lin had a great stretch of games in New York, but until he does it constantly, hes just a mediocre pg.
And other homers who use that small sample as "proof" that he will be great. Yet he hasn't shown at all this season that he can produce the way he did for 8 games in ny....

**** the excuses.
He is what he is.
And with out harden coming in, the rockets would have faded into the shadows this year.

Dankster
03-29-2013, 08:20 AM
There is no debate on this.
There are people who say Lin had a great stretch of games in New York, but until he does it constantly, hes just a mediocre pg.
And other homers who use that small sample as "proof" that he will be great. Yet he hasn't shown at all this season that he can produce the way he did for 8 games in ny....

**** the excuses.
He is what he is.
And with out harden coming in, the rockets would have faded into the shadows this year.

It's hard to argue with any of the points you made Yash.

I just wonder what his stats would look like had Harden not been traded to the Rockets?

His USG% would definitely skyrocket and he'd be probably the most critical piece to that team aside from Parsons and Asik.

It's a bunch of what if's though, and that team is clearly Harden's for at least the next couple years.

SO if you essentially put Lin and Raymonds stats side by side this year in a comparison and obviously factored in salaries of both players, I think the majority of GM's would select Felton over Lin based solely on having comparable stats at 1/3rd of the salary.

The only thing Lin has got going for him over Felton at this point is he's younger and he can POSSIBLY improve as the years go by (no certainty that will happen though.) I personally like lin and wish him success, just not against the Knicks.

YashBoone
03-29-2013, 08:54 AM
I'm not saying he's bad either. Just saying people might have drank a little too much of the koll aid

odiz
03-29-2013, 09:40 AM
I dont know how this is at all relevant but has anyone else noticed that Lins numbers are nearly identical to last year (minus 1.5 points) in pretty much every category. Even though he averaged like 5 mins a game through his first 10 games for the Knicks.

D-Leethal
03-29-2013, 09:47 AM
Rockets fans have been callin' for mchale's a-- for at least a year now. An amazing feat since he hasn't coached the rockets for much longer than that.

It's obvious kmac has no idea how to coach PG's or even guards for that matter. To put it concisely:

1. he doesn't have any idea of how to utilize guards, especially PG's.
2. his over-reliance on harden both in terms of minutes played and usage is really ridiculous.
3. his substitution patterns are completely random, and show no discernible, strategic pattern.
4. he has alienated every single quality PG he's ever coached
5. he constantly blames his players and never takes responsibility for a faulty game plan

I hate to say it, but mchale is just a s--- coach. I don't see what morey sees in him, to be honest.

The end result he has the youngest team in the NBA in the middle of the playoffs in an extremely tough West, playing above their age and above their talent level.

Weezy
03-29-2013, 10:16 AM
Lin is a good player. I like his game but damn the Rockets franchise player is James Harden. He is that team's future and Lin's consistency is probably being interfered with Hardens game. Both of them need the ball to be effective consistently IMO.

D-Leethal
03-29-2013, 12:06 PM
Lin is a good player. I like his game but damn the Rockets franchise player is James Harden. He is that team's future and Lin's consistency is probably being interfered with Hardens game. Both of them need the ball to be effective consistently IMO.

It really isn't a prime fit at all, as much as people like to say they are the backcourt of the future, I don't think they grow too long together. If you want to build around Harden as your star, you should get a PG that compliments his game. Lin has done a good job trying to tweak some things but its not a prime fit no matter how you slice it. Both guys want the ball, both guys need the ball, both guys are in the backcourt.

Nycrican said from day 1 that resigning Lin even if just as a trade chip would have been a great move, and I think Rockets have another blockbuster up their sleeve in the next year or 2 that will involve Lin and Asik and their 3 year poison pill stop-gap contracts.

farren.louis
03-29-2013, 12:59 PM
Lin doesnt understand the game of basketball. Period! He's predictable, When he gets taking out the game the rockets get better

farren.louis
03-29-2013, 01:02 PM
1.

houstonfan
03-29-2013, 01:25 PM
He's still just 24 and his numbers have improved every month this season. He has shot over 40 percent from 3s in the last two months so it seems like hes got that part of his game down. If you give him a whole offseason working with Harden and Parsons I see him being a guy who can average 16 and 7 in the future. And to the people saying Mchale doesn't use him right and that he is a **** coach... He has a team most people thought would be a bottom 10 team in the league in the playoffs.

ManRam
03-29-2013, 01:54 PM
i think we sometimes forget how young and inexperienced he is, just because of how tremendously public and overblown his breakout was. it's basically his second full season; entering this season he had only 25 games started under his belt. there have been injuries, coaching changes etc., like alluded to.


he gets looked at under a different microscope than most every other young player. we bash him for "not actually being above average" with the knicks, which was basically his rookie season for all intents and purposes...but he's young. that's not his ceiling. you'd expect any good young player to improve. it just seems like everyone looks at him like he's already a veteran for some reason.

we treat his shortcomings like they're the shortcomings of a 29 year old 10-year veteran. that's not the case. his weaknesses are no different than any other young player's who we are willing to write off as "youth" and "inexperience". no one gives Lin that fair benefit of the doubt

Tony_Starks
03-29-2013, 04:35 PM
He was never necessarily an above average
player to begin with. Now that the scouting report is out on him some guys are just going to have his # every game because they are flat out better than him at every aspect of the game.

This.

It's one thing when you're some player out of nowhere that no one heard of or is worried about. But when you're a official starter that people are actually preparing for its an entirely different story.

He's really more suited for a backup role playing against second tier guys, as a starter he's never going to be better than average...

Blitzace137
03-29-2013, 05:54 PM
It really isn't a prime fit at all, as much as people like to say they are the backcourt of the future, I don't think they grow too long together. If you want to build around Harden as your star, you should get a PG that compliments his game. Lin has done a good job trying to tweak some things but its not a prime fit no matter how you slice it. Both guys want the ball, both guys need the ball, both guys are in the backcourt.

Nycrican said from day 1 that resigning Lin even if just as a trade chip would have been a great move, and I think Rockets have another blockbuster up their sleeve in the next year or 2 that will involve Lin and Asik and their 3 year poison pill stop-gap contracts.

I agree with this even though I always bring up the argument that he's adapted to Harden's style their not a ideal fit. I think Harden would be better off with a PG like Mo Williams or even Lowry, guys who could shoot the ball. Lin is a good playmaker that's why I think he would have been a good fit for NY imo. I could see Morey dealing him and Asik off. I could also see Dwight joining this group and Morey just dealing Asik off for a 4. I'm curious to see what Lin does after he has an off-season to work with Harden and Parsons, you would think his numbers would go off but it's hard to read this kid sometimes.

Blitzace137
03-29-2013, 05:55 PM
Lin doesnt understand the game of basketball. Period! He's predictable, When he gets taking out the game the rockets get better

Prove it.

Blitzace137
03-29-2013, 06:00 PM
I'm not saying he's bad either. Just saying people might have drank a little too much of the koll aid

Nobody said he's a superstar most realistic fans thought he would be a 15-7 player. I could see him being a 16-7 player with time, I wouldn't be surprised.

Tony_Starks
03-29-2013, 06:10 PM
Nobody said he's a superstar most realistic fans thought he would be a 15-7
player. I could see him being a 16-7 player with time, I wouldn't be surprised.

That's the problem most fans aren't realistic. They either think he's total garbage or a future all star instead of what he is: a second tier pg.

blahblahyoutoo
03-29-2013, 06:12 PM
It's only his third year - they can't all be superstars like LeBron right out of the gate.

Houston has to look at this from several angles. We have a large asian population and we're coming off the heels of the Yao Ming era here. Yao was a marketing success despite his actual time on the floor. Lin is sort-of seen as the same kind of thing. The asian market dollars are huge, as seen with Yao, and I think we're banking on that popularity to bring in more international market interest.

Dennis Scott once said Consistant inconsistancy is still at least consistant in something. You can be one of three things : average every game, consistant inconstistantly with highs and lows, or consistantly terrible. Basically, where Lin is right now is the least of his problems.

Asking him to be Kobe or James in only his third year under a third coach under a new system with a young team is like asking someone to make love to a woman, on stage, in front of the queen of England, while on fire.

Are there better options out there? Sure. What does he bring to the table? Marketing, honesty, good work ethic, and he's not dependent as the #1 scoring option since the acquisition of Harden. We're deeper than we have been in a long time with both Beverly and Brooks, and to be honest, I think the AB signing was a way to bring a mentor to Lin on polishing his game. This just goes to show our GM's commitment to the guy in the long-term.

at least your misspelling of "consistent" is consistent.

TeamSeattle
03-29-2013, 07:08 PM
Lin doesnt understand the game of basketball. Period! He's predictable, When he gets taking out the game the rockets get better

Actually on average the Rockets have lost the games where Lin and Asik were taking out late (I've been watchin almost every game). McHale has a trust factor with Lin, he sees a few turnovers and yanks him for the game, which eventually leads to a loss. Yea Beverly is a good defender but has the offensive IQ of Toney Douglas.

SouthSideRookie
03-29-2013, 07:56 PM
Actually on average the Rockets have lost the games where Lin and Asik were taking out late (I've been watchin almost every game). McHale has a trust factor with Lin, he sees a few turnovers and yanks him for the game, which eventually leads to a loss. Yea Beverly is a good defender but has the offensive IQ of Toney Douglas.

http://i49.tinypic.com/zxtwg0.jpg

farren.louis
03-29-2013, 08:20 PM
Lin doesnt understand the game of basketball. Its not about his ability. He makes bad plays consistently.

farren.louis
03-29-2013, 08:23 PM
Prove it.

Just watch the game . Its so obvious.

Blitzace137
03-29-2013, 09:08 PM
Just watch the game . Its so obvious.

I do watch. Give me numbers your opinion is not fact.