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Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:35 PM
I feel Shaq would have been considered the greatest center of all time. He'd eat this skinny man alive over and over as well as the rest of the competition. I'm talking about the dominant Shaq from 1992- 2002. Thoughts?

Chronz
03-23-2013, 11:37 PM
Not convinced sorry.

Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:39 PM
How are you not convinced? Prime Shaq vs. skinny Chamberlain would equal total domination on Shaq's part. I remember him making Patrick Ewing look small and Patrick was no light weight to say the least.

LAKobeBryant
03-23-2013, 11:42 PM
I don't think being skinny makes you better or worse. So take that factor out of your argument and now your left with nothing.

b@llhog24
03-23-2013, 11:44 PM
I don't think being skinny makes you better or worse. So take that factor out of your argument and now your left with nothing.

Eddy Curry must be the GOAT.

OceanSpray
03-23-2013, 11:46 PM
I'm convinced. But we won't know because of the crazy feats that some say Wilt possessed but no proof.

Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:46 PM
I don't think being skinny makes you better or worse. So take that factor out of your argument and now your left with nothing.

Wrong. Look what he did against people bigger than Chamberlain. You think Chamberlain would stand a chance vs PRIME Shaq? I remember watching Shaq during his prime thinking this man is unstoppable.

amos1er
03-23-2013, 11:47 PM
One on one I might give the edge to Wilt. As far as building a team, I would take a prime Shaq over mostly anyohe.

OceanSpray
03-23-2013, 11:48 PM
Wrong. Look what he did against people bigger than Chamberlain. You think Chamberlain would stand a chance vs PRIME Shaq? I remember watching Shaq during his prime thinking this man is unstoppable.

I think Shaq is the most dominating center and could've been the greatest. With that being said, Hakeem stood a chance.

Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:49 PM
Eddy Curry must be the GOAT.

This is a joke, right? Eddy Curry never dominated the competition like a prime Shaq did. Put prime Shaq on a 50's squad and we'd be talking about the GOAT. Seriously. Who was stopping a prime shaq during the 50's and 60's?

Chronz
03-23-2013, 11:49 PM
How are you not convinced? Prime Shaq vs. skinny Chamberlain would equal total domination on Shaq's part. I remember him making Patrick Ewing look small and Patrick was no light weight to say the least.

I said sorry bro, I honestly get the impression that you dont know much about NBA history. Thats all I can surmise from your attempts

Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:52 PM
I think Shaq is the most dominating center and could've been the greatest. With that being said, Hakeem stood a chance.

I agree. Put Hakeem AND Shaq on different 50's and 60's squads against Wilt and Wilt would have been number 3 on the list.

Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:54 PM
I said sorry bro, I honestly get the impression that you dont know much about NBA history. Thats all I can surmise from your attempts

Are you in your 60's and 70's that you've watched Wilt play first hand? If so, sorry bro indeed. Watching Nba film and watching Shaq play live...I can honestly say Wilt had ZERO competition unless you count an equally skinny Bill Russell. Prime Shaq in the 50's and 60's would have gave these 2 trouble.

Chronz
03-23-2013, 11:55 PM
Wrong. Look what he did against people bigger than Chamberlain. You think Chamberlain would stand a chance vs PRIME Shaq? I remember watching Shaq during his prime thinking this man is unstoppable.

LMFAO sounds like you didnt watch much basketball back in your youth. Apparently you missed when 6"7 Dennis Rodman played Shaq well enough to not get destroyed. And Wilt was a stronger, 7ft version of him. Imagine if Wilt had the advantages of todays nutrition/workout regimen. Damn he'd be even stronger than he already was.

bucketss
03-23-2013, 11:55 PM
shaq would have destroyed him

OceanSpray
03-23-2013, 11:56 PM
LMFAO sounds like you didnt watch much basketball back in your youth. Apparently you missed when 6"7 Dennis Rodman played Shaq well enough to not get destroyed. And Wilt was a stronger, 7ft version of him. Imagine if Wilt had the advantages of todays nutrition/workout regimen. Damn he'd be even stronger than he already was.

Yes, he looked strong.. Against skinny white 6"7 centers. Get with the program, buddy.

Chronz
03-23-2013, 11:56 PM
Are you in your 60's and 70's that you've watched Wilt play first hand? If so, sorry bro indeed. Watching Nba film and watching Shaq play live...I can honestly say Wilt had ZERO competition unless you count an equally skinny Bill Russell. Prime Shaq in the 50's and 60's would have gave these 2 trouble.
Wait you would be sorry for someone who got to actually see that era while your left with unsubstantiated opinions?

Chronz
03-23-2013, 11:56 PM
Yes, he looked strong.. Against skinny white 6"7 centers. Get with the program, buddy.
Based on what tho

Chronz
03-23-2013, 11:56 PM
shaq would have destroyed him
Then how come he didn't destroy Rodman?

OceanSpray
03-23-2013, 11:57 PM
Wait you would be sorry for someone who got to actually see that era while your left with unsubstantiated opinions?

So you're saying Chamberlain would destroy Shaq based on the fact that Wilt Chamberlain had super powers? You're being just as hypothetical as everyone else. Stop with the bashing using false information.

Cromedome
03-23-2013, 11:58 PM
LMFAO sounds like you didnt watch much basketball back in your youth. Apparently you missed when 6"7 Dennis Rodman played Shaq well enough to not get destroyed. And Wilt was a stronger, 7ft version of him. Imagine if Wilt had the advantages of todays nutrition/workout regimen. Damn he'd be even stronger than he already was.

I respect the worm for his defense...but are you saying there were games where 6'7 Rodman held his own against Shaq and actually stopped him?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:02 AM
Wait you would be sorry for someone who got to actually see that era while your left with unsubstantiated opinions?

I'm saying sorry because I never watched a full season of Wilt, so a person in their 60's and 70's would have a better understanding than a guy who's only seen him on film. With that said.....all of the "superpower" stats Wilt had , in my opinion, have to do with that he was pretty much the only 7 foot big man with "skills" during his prime. Put prime Shaq, prime Hakeem, prime David Robinson or Prime Ewing in the 50's or 60's and Wilt would be considered 4th or 5th best.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:04 AM
So you're saying Chamberlain would destroy Shaq based on the fact that Wilt Chamberlain had super powers? You're being just as hypothetical as everyone else. Stop with the bashing using false information.

Where did I say that? LMFAO are strawman arguments all you have in your arsenal?

Dade County
03-24-2013, 12:05 AM
I feel Shaq would have been considered the greatest center of all time. He'd eat this skinny man alive over and over as well as the rest of the competition. I'm talking about the dominant Shaq from 1992- 2002. Thoughts?

You are 100% correct.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:07 AM
I respect the worm for his defense...but are you saying there were games where 6'7 Rodman held his own against Shaq and actually stopped him?
Thank you for confirming my opinion. Lemme guess, 19 years young?


I'm saying sorry because I never watched a full season of Wilt, so a person in their 60's and 70's would have a better understanding than a guy who's only seen him on film. With that said.....all of the "superpower" stats Wilt had , in my opinion, have to do with that he was pretty much the only 7 foot big man with "skills" during his prime. Put prime Shaq, prime Hakeem, prime David Robinson or Prime Ewing in the 50's or 60's and Wilt would be considered 4th or 5th best.
Yeah I get that, but you can understand why I dont believe someone who doesn't even know the 90's all that well, right?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:07 AM
Based on what tho

Based on that there weren't too many people his size. I could score 100 points a game if I played against 7 year old 5'5 kids ...which is the equivalent of what Wilt dealt with during his prime.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:10 AM
Based on that there weren't too many people his size. I could score 100 points a game if I played against 7 year old 5'5 kids ...which is the equivalent of what Wilt dealt with during his prime.

Again, not convinced. If that were true then why did KAJ struggle against Wilt/Thurmond in the playoffs? And that was an old post-knee op Wilt.

So basically KAJ was a skinny bum who couldn't keep up either?

Curious, just which era of basketball do you deem worthy of respect

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:10 AM
Thank you for confirming my opinion. Lemme guess, 19 years young?


Yeah I get that, but you can understand why I dont believe someone who doesn't even know the 90's all that well.

Wrong. I don't remember the worm shutting down a prime Shaq. Maybe getting under his skin as he did with the rest of the league but shutting him down? No. Skinny Wilt would have looked small trying to stop prime Shaq.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:11 AM
Curious, just which era of basketball do you deem worthy of respect

80's - 2001

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 12:12 AM
I would take prime shaq, but IMO prime shaq was the best center ever. He was so dominant. I wouldn't say he would eat wilt alive though, thats a bit too far.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:13 AM
Wrong. I don't remember the worm shutting down a prime Shaq. Maybe getting under his skin as he did with the rest of the league but shutting him down? No. Skinny Wilt would have looked small trying to stop prime Shaq.
Shut down? Who said that, man you kids these days need to learn how to debate properly. What I DID say was that a 6"7 skinny Rodman was able to check Shaq. But Im suppose to believe a stronger/taller guy couldn't do a better job? Why would I believe such a ridiculous opinion?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:14 AM
Head to head...who would win the match up?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:15 AM
Shut down? Who said that, man you kids these days need to learn how to debate properly. What I DID say was that a 6"7 skinny Rodman was able to check Shaq. But Im suppose to believe a stronger/taller guy couldn't do a better job? Why would I believe such a ridiculous opinion?

I'm not a kid, first off, so I know what i'm talking about. I'm probably older than you.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:16 AM
80's - 2001

What happened to the rest of my post? Incapable of answering the questions laid out? Its ok, I understand why, so long as you understand why Im not convinced you know anything about the older eras.


BTW, what happened in 2002 for you to leave them out?


I'm not a kid, first off, so I know what i'm talking about. I'm probably older than you.
Im not convinced, but OK I will stop.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:17 AM
Head to head...who would win the match up?

These sort of questions require additional context. WHICH WILT AND WHICH SHAQ?

There is a vast difference in their style of play at different stages of their careers.

If your asking peak vs peak, then Shaq IMO. He played at simply the best level a center has ever played IMO.
The years Wilt would be best equipped to defend Shaq, he was slowing down offensively. Shaq combined dominant post defense and offense in a single year unlike anyone ever.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:21 AM
What happened to the rest of my post? Incapable of answering the questions laid out? Its ok, I understand why, so long as you understand why Im not convinced you know anything about the older eras.

I hope you understand that I wasn't alive during whatever era it was you were talking about. Is this the 60's early 70's ? I'm not that old now. 2002 - present we saw a decline in big men so that's why i'm not talking about Kwame brown vs Wilt or Mcgee vs Wilt.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:23 AM
I hope you understand that I wasn't alive during whatever era it was you were talking about. Is this the 60's early 70's ? I'm not that old now. 2002 - present we saw a decline in big men so that's why i'm not talking about Kwame brown vs Wilt or Mcgee vs Wilt.
Yeah bro I get it, I already said I understood why. Your ignorance is visible in your arguments and lack of a rebuttal

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:24 AM
These sort of questions require additional context. WHICH WILT AND WHICH SHAQ?

There is a vast difference in their style of play at different stages of their careers.

If your asking peak vs peak, then Shaq IMO. He played at simply the best level a center has ever played IMO.
The years Wilt would be best equipped to defend Shaq, he was slowing down offensively. Shaq combined dominant post defense and offense in a single year unlike anyone ever.

Yes, peak vs peak and 90's Shaq entering the league at the same time as Wilt. I'm 99.9% sure Shaq would have had all of Wilt's records.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:25 AM
Yeah bro I get it, I already said I understood why. Your ignorance is visible in your arguments and lack of a rebuttal

I'm pretty sure i've responded to every one of your posts and haven't shied away from anything that you're talking about.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:31 AM
Also, you might be caught up in the 1 or 2 games where Rodman did hold Shaq in check. 1/2 games? Rodman = Shaq stopper? Ruben Patterson, is that you?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:34 AM
I'm pretty sure i've responded to every one of your posts and haven't shied away from anything that you're talking about.
Then why was half my post missing in your response? I laid out several questions. Your response was that you werent alive and thus unable to give any input. How can you ignore my questions yet maintain that you havent shied away?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:37 AM
Also, you might be caught up in the 1 or 2 games where Rodman did hold Shaq in check. 1/2 games? Rodman = Shaq stopper? Ruben Patterson, is that you?
Stopper? LOL why can you newer members of society (you like that instead?) argue without strawman fronts?

Not getting caught up in anything, just presenting the facts. Shaq didn't destroy Rodman, yet Im suppose to believe a stronger/taller player would get eaten up because hes allegedly "skinny"? LMFAO Im sorry but if Shaq could DESTROY Wilt, then he wouldn't have been held in check by such a small player.

You really have to watch those games to understand what Im getting at. Would you like me to see if I can upload it for you?

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 12:38 AM
Shut down? Who said that, man you kids these days need to learn how to debate properly. What I DID say was that a 6"7 skinny Rodman was able to check Shaq. But Im suppose to believe a stronger/taller guy couldn't do a better job? Why would I believe such a ridiculous opinion?

FYI, Shaq dominated whenever he played Rodman. To say Rodman stopped Shaq is just silly. To say Wilt would've been more dominant than Shaq is just as bad as saying Shaq would've been more dominant as well. You make no sense at all. Wilt's only competition was Bill and that was it. There were like 10 good players and the rest of the league were just fillers so they can have a full game.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:39 AM
Then why was half my post missing in your response? I laid out several questions. Your response was that you werent alive and thus unable to give any input. How can you ignore my questions yet maintain that you havent shied away?

You asked me why did Kareem struggle against Wilt/Thurmond. ...I have no idea. My only guess is that Kareem didn't have it all together when he went up against them. What year is this anyway? I answered all your questions except this 1..and this is what you're talking about?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:41 AM
FYI, Shaq dominated whenever he played Rodman. To say Rodman stopped Shaq is just silly. To say Wilt would've been more dominant than Shaq is just as bad as saying Shaq would've been more dominant as well. You make no sense at all. Wilt's only competition was Bill and that was it. There were like 10 good players and the rest of the league were just fillers so they can have a full game.

Based on what tho?

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 12:42 AM
Based on what tho?

This is coming from the guy who wanted a legitimate discussion. Resorts to the repetitive replies because he has no arguments.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:42 AM
Stopper? LOL why can you newer members of society (you like that instead?) argue without strawman fronts?

Not getting caught up in anything, just presenting the facts. Shaq didn't destroy Rodman, yet Im suppose to believe a stronger/taller player would get eaten up because hes allegedly "skinny"? LMFAO Im sorry but if Shaq could DESTROY Wilt, then he wouldn't have been held in check by such a small player.

You really have to watch those games to understand what Im getting at. Would you like me to see if I can upload it for you?

And by held in check...I just youtubed the 1996 playoffs where Rodman had a good game. I honestly dont feel Rodman did a damn thing against Shaq head to head. You seem like you have something against me judging by responses. Are you ok? Where is this "newer members of society" coming from? I'm over 30 years old.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:43 AM
You asked me why did Kareem struggle against Wilt/Thurmond. ...I have no idea. My only guess is that Kareem didn't have it all together when he went up against them. What year is this anyway? I answered all your questions except this 1..and this is what you're talking about?
Yea stop guessing and start researching. I mean if you want to talk history, shouldnt you learn abit about it? KAJ didn't have it all together? So the MVP of the league in some of his most productive years didn't have it together?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:47 AM
Yea stop guessing and start researching. I mean if you want to talk history, shouldnt you learn abit about it? KAJ didn't have it all together? So the MVP of the league in some of his most productive years didn't have it together?

I also asked for your thoughts on the skinnier KAJ.

A rookie/2 year KAJ struggled against an prime/overthehill Wilt? Great. I'm talking about a Prime Shaq vs Wilt and you're here talking about Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

Where is your attitude coming from because it almost seems as if you're trying to talk down to me?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:47 AM
And by held in check...I just youtubed the 1996 playoffs where Rodman had a good game. I honestly dont feel Rodman did a damn thing against Shaq head to head. You seem like you have something against me judging by responses. Are you ok? Where is this "newer members of society" coming from? I'm over 30 years old.
You have to watch the game, and how Rodman held his position despite being severely outweighed.

Share the youtube link, I wonder how much they actually showed you.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:51 AM
A rookie/2 year KAJ struggled against an prime/overthehill Wilt?
LOL false. Wilt was past his prime, KAJ/Wilt only had 1 matchup where Wilt was atleast near his prime. After that he had his knee operated and lacked the same agility he once did. But yea, thats in his prime..... (facepalming right now). Lemme guess, the MVP wasn't as close to his peak years than Wilt, despite producing at higher levels and winning a chip his 2nd year.



Great. I'm talking about a Prime Shaq vs Wilt and you're here talking about Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

Its because KAJ bridges the gap between several eras. An old broken down Wilt was able to punk KAJ. So too could an old Thurmond (a guy Wilt Dominated).


Where is your attitude coming from because it almost seems as if you're trying to talk down to me?
I give cold hard facts bro

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:52 AM
You have to watch the game, and how Rodman held his position despite being severely outweighed.

Share the youtube link, I wonder how much they actually showed you.

Let's talk about what your talking about for a second. Would Rodman stop Wilt during his prime? If so, do you think Rodman in his prime would have taken away from Wilt's legacy?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:53 AM
Is Chonz Wilt's number 1 fan? If so, I'm sorry I brought up such a sensitive topic. Are you kidding me?
Nah, Shaq is actually my favorite player. Im just not convinced you know jack **** about NBA history.

People who disrespect greats without compelling or factual evidence irritates me to no end.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 12:54 AM
Let's talk about what your talking about for a second. Would Rodman stop Wilt during his prime? If so, do you think Rodman in his prime would have taken away from Wilt's legacy?

Don't even bother. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about. He's singling out one or two performances out of many between two players. By his definition, Bill is better than Wilt because Bill has stopped Wilt countless of times.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 12:56 AM
Nah, Shaq is actually my favorite player. Im just not convinced you know jack **** about NBA history.

People who disrespect greats without compelling or factual evidence irritates me to no end.

Using the good old "This guy is my favorite player but he's not the greatest" to boost your argument. Nice work, truly remarkable.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:57 AM
Don't even bother. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about. He's singling out one or two performances out of many between two players. By his definition, Bill is better than Wilt because Bill has stopped Wilt countless of times.
Only someone so reliant on strawmen would think that. Im singling out a series between 2 players, the fact that Shaq couldn't murder Rodman during that stage of his career means more to me than your unsubstantiated opinion.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 12:58 AM
Strawman arguments, I never said I was king .

What the **** does that date have to do with anything?

If your getting this sense of superiority from me, its due to the laughable jokes you guys call arguments.

You're such a hypocrite. "Talking down on me." Do you think you deserve to be talked with higher representation? No, if you were banned right now, the site moves on with no disturbance. Clearly you feel you are superior to most users based off your longevity on this site. Your ignorance, lack of factual evidence, and middle school spelling mistakes are atrocious.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 12:58 AM
Don't even bother. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about. He's singling out one or two performances out of many between two players. By his definition, Bill is better than Wilt because Bill has stopped Wilt countless of times.

I'm going by what i've seen from Shaq and the dominant players he had to deal with during his prime. Wilt went up against the likes of "boo boo the fool Johnson" and scored 100 points and 50 rebounds a game. I seriously doubt if Wilt went up against O'neal, Ewing, Hakeem, David Robinson and even Rick Smits that he'd have so many record setting nights.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 12:59 AM
Using the good old "This guy is my favorite player but he's not the greatest" to boost your argument. Nice work, truly remarkable.
LOL. wait for it........




















wait for it..........................
















BASED ON WHAT THO?



You really never seen me slurp up Shaq? Hell didn't I just say Shaq would win the matchup in his peak?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:01 AM
I'm going by what i've seen from Shaq and the dominant players he had to deal with during his prime. Wilt went up against the likes of "boo boo the fool Johnson" and scored 100 points and 50 rebounds a game. I seriously doubt if Wilt went up against O'neal, Ewing, Hakeem, David Robinson and even Rick Smits that he'd have so many record setting nights.
LOL so your argument is that he wouldn't be averaging 50-25? Well no ****, NOBODY has ever claimed that.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:01 AM
Only someone so reliant on strawmen would think that. Im singling out a series between 2 players, the fact that Shaq couldn't murder Rodman during that stage of his career means more to me than your unsubstantiated opinion.

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/f9/1b/f91b3f54c870243127c71efdb90a63d2.png

If this one game is your proof, you should really pull your cord and go night night. LeBron, Jordan, Kobe, Magic; all had off games. You're not proving much but the fact that a player can have bad games. Why do you make it seem as if Rodman was a typical scrub? He is the greatest rebounder of all time. He was strong, quick, and ferocious. Stop the useless replies with no evidence.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:03 AM
LOL so your argument is that he wouldn't be averaging 50-25? Well no ****, NOBODY has ever claimed that.

Do you have a brain to distinguish information given to you? If you don't believe Wilt could average 50/25, you're only implying that he wouldn't be as good in this era. Maybe you should watch WNBA games instead.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:03 AM
Its because KAJ bridges the gap between several eras. An old broken down Wilt was able to punk KAJ. So too could an old Thurmond (a guy Wilt Dominated).


I give cold hard facts bro

All jokes aside, what in the hell does that have to do with a PRIME, DOMINANT SHAQ destroying Wilt?

Unless you put KAJ and Prime shaq on the same level...what's going on here? Seriously. Are you the son(s) of Wilt Chamberlain?

jayjay33
03-24-2013, 01:04 AM
I don't think being skinny makes you better or worse. So take that factor out of your argument and now your left with nothing.

What? So if shaq was skinny he would have still been a beast down low? Lmao.

Have you ever tried to guard someone 40 or 50 pounds heavier than you under the goal? Shaq would kill wilt for the simple fact he wilt couldn't hold what he had against shaq. Where ever shaq wanted to go that's we're he would go. When I was playing we would pick up really bigs guys at three point line and make them have to fight there way all the way down to the post. Of course you can't do that anymore. But I have seen teams try that with shaq back in the day and he would just walk his man all the way to the block like they were little babies. Theres no way in hell wilt can hold any kind of position against shaq. He's getting backed all the way under the goal, every time. Now of course Shaq's defense is terrible so he wouldn't do much better guarding wilt. But my point is as much as some dudes like to tell themselves other wise, SIZE MATTERS. Lol

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:04 AM
FYI, Shaq dominated whenever he played Rodman. To say Rodman stopped Shaq is just silly. To say Wilt would've been more dominant than Shaq is just as bad as saying Shaq would've been more dominant as well. You make no sense at all. Wilt's only competition was Bill and that was it. There were like 10 good players and the rest of the league were just fillers so they can have a full game.
Good thing I never said Rodman stopped Shaq (should I start counting how many strawmen you've created?), I said he held his own despite the giant mismatch in size, so why would I assume a stronger/taller player would get destroyed?

Will Shaq have success against Wilt? Of course, just as Wilt would Shaq. The point is NOBODY is destroying anyone.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:05 AM
All jokes aside, what in the hell does that have to do with a PRIME, DOMINANT SHAQ destroying Wilt?

Unless you put KAJ and Prime shaq on the same level...what's going on here? Seriously. Are you the son(s) of Wilt Chamberlain?

His only proof that Wilt would dominate Shaq is the fact that Rodman stopped Shaq in one of their many games. It's quite sad, honestly, when a user with 27,000 posts would scoop that low for "evidence".

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:06 AM
You really never seen me slurp up Shaq? Hell didn't I just say Shaq would win the matchup in his peak?

Then what are we talking about? Please scroll back to my original post. You're saying Shaq would win in the matchup in his peak? Thank you for your input.

If you want to make a KAJ thread you're welcome to do so.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:08 AM
All jokes aside, what in the hell does that have to do with a PRIME, DOMINANT SHAQ destroying Wilt?
It has to do with your stance on era's. You said you respected the 80's, well KAJ played and dominated in the 80's. He also faced and struggled vs Wilt/Thurmond (players from the 70's). So how can a player who dominated the era you respect, and show weaknesses vs the era you dont? Head to head, Shaq would have more success against KAJ than he would Wilt is my point. Why single out Wilt?

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:10 AM
Good thing I never said Rodman stopped Shaq (should I start counting how many strawmen you've created?), I said he held his own despite the giant mismatch in size, so why would I assume a stronger/taller player would get destroyed?

Will Shaq have success against Wilt? Of course, just as Wilt would Shaq. The point is NOBODY is destroying anyone.

Ben Wallace is up there as one of the strongest centers of all time. Would he "dominate"? C'mon, just go to sleep. You aren't proving or making much sense. Try another topic; one that you actually have a proper insight to. The point is you brought Rodman up by saying he held his own against Shaq and that was your only "evidence".

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:11 AM
Then what are we talking about?

The "Eat this skinny man alive" crap. Its as if you dont know how strong Wilt was, its utterly inconceivable that an alleged 30 year old doesn't know all the feats of strength/athleticism Wilt has accomplished over the years. Did you ever pick up a book?

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:12 AM
It has to do with your stance on era's. You said you respected the 80's, well KAJ played and dominated in the 80's. He also faced and struggled vs Wilt/Thurmond (players from the 70's). So how can a player who dominated the era you respect, and show weaknesses vs the era you dont? Head to head, Shaq would have more success against KAJ than he would Wilt is my point. Why single out Wilt?

Actually, Kareem was most dominant in the 70's. You don't seem to make much sense these days. Once again, maybe going to sleep will help you realize your silly posts.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:13 AM
The "Eat this skinny man alive" crap. Its as if you dont know how strong Wilt was, its utterly inconceivable that an alleged 30 year old doesn't know all the feats of strength/athleticism Wilt has accomplished over the years. Did you ever pick up a book?

Where is video evidence? Book, yes, I picked up the Bible and Harry Potter books before. Are they real? Can you prove it? Nope. At least we have evidence of Bruce Lee's feats.

samlo144
03-24-2013, 01:13 AM
Wilt ran a 10.9 100m dash, freak in the athletics circuit in long jump, high jump and shot put. Apparently matched Arnold Schwarzenegger in the gym. All with a playboy lifestyle and the limited sports science knowledge of the day.
The man can only play against who he can play against. Can't punish him for being born when he was...

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:13 AM
It has to do with your stance on era's. You said you respected the 80's, well KAJ played and dominated in the 80's. He also faced and struggled vs Wilt/Thurmond (players from the 70's). So how can a player who dominated the era you respect, and show weaknesses vs the era you dont? Head to head, Shaq would have more success against KAJ than he would Wilt is my point. Why single out Wilt?


I singled out Wilt because people are under the impression that he's the greatest center/player of all time. If prime Shaq OR prime Jordan played in his era...Wilt would still be a great player but far from the greatest of all time. I'd even go as far to say Lebron James vs Wilt 1950/1960's with Lebron getting the best of him everytime.

Wilt never had any real competition (on a night to night basis) and thus the outrageous records.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:13 AM
Ben Wallace is up there as one of the strongest centers of all time. Would he "dominate"?
Quotations are reserved for QUOTES. Explain how that fits here? What are you trying to get at?





C'mon, just go to sleep.
At 10:13?


You aren't proving or making much sense.
Coming from someone with (those straws), this means nothing.


Try another topic; one that you actually have a proper insight to. The point is you brought Rodman up by saying he held his own against Shaq and that was your only "evidence".
Based on what tho?

el hidalgo
03-24-2013, 01:15 AM
Chronz getting trolled hard

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:15 AM
The "Eat this skinny man alive" crap. Its as if you dont know how strong Wilt was, its utterly inconceivable that an alleged 30 year old doesn't know all the feats of strength/athleticism Wilt has accomplished over the years. Did you ever pick up a book?

There you go again talking down to me and now you're saying i'm a liar? Like I have a reason to make things up to the likes of you. You've shown me in this thread that you have serious issues and if I continue where you're leading me to...i'll be banned for sure. You have a good night.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:18 AM
I singled out Wilt because people are under the impression that he's the greatest center/player of all time.
I've never gotten the impression that it was a wideheld opinion, only that it can be argued, which it can.


If prime Shaq OR prime Jordan played in his era...Wilt would still be a great player but far from the greatest of all time. I'd even go as far to say Lebron James vs Wilt 1950/1960's with Lebron getting the best of him everytime.
Wilt never had any real competition (on a night to night basis) and thus the outrageous records.
Yeah I know you think that, Im just not seeing any reason to believe you. We've seen Wilt vs guys like Russ/KAJ/Thurmond. We've also seen KAJ struggle against those same players you deem incapable.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:21 AM
You'll be banned because his friends are all moderators. Rest assured, they always come to his rescue when he's losing it.

I can see it coming. Feeding into his nonsense will only lead to no good. I'm here talking about Wilt vs Shaq and from that it went to Rodman, Kareem and i'm a child who knows nothing about 50's basketball.

How old are we out here?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:23 AM
There you go again talking down to me and now you're saying i'm a liar? Like I have a reason to make things up to the likes of you. You've shown me in this thread that you have serious issues and if I continue where you're leading me to...i'll be banned for sure. You have a good night.
You've shown me just the same, my issue is I dont believe people who come off the way you have. And yes you would have reason to lie, just like OceanSpray had reason to question the credibility of my "Shaq is my fav" stance.

Hawkeye15
03-24-2013, 01:24 AM
Wilt was a freak of nature, and one of the strongest athletes in history.

I would LOVE to have watched a peak Shaq versus a peak Wilt.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:25 AM
I've never gotten the impression that it was a wideheld opinion, only that it can be argued, which it can.


Yeah I know you think that, Im just not seeing any reason to believe you. We've seen Wilt vs guys like Russ/KAJ/Thurmond. We've also seen KAJ struggle against those same players you deem incapable.

Have you checked their stats vs each other? Kareem has an edge and dominated Wilt in many cases. Wilt had also stated that he needed help against Kareem. You seem to be handpicking segments rather than the full story.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 01:27 AM
Where is video evidence? Book, yes, I picked up the Bible and Harry Potter books before. Are they real? Can you prove it? Nope. At least we have evidence of Bruce Lee's feats.

This thread is so awesome, this is my favorite post for sure. It almost appears like you think wilt is fictional/a myth.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:28 AM
You've shown me just the same, my issue is I dont believe people who come off the way you have. And yes you would have reason to lie, just like OceanSpray had reason to question the credibility of my "Shaq is my fav" stance.

I'm not questioning your favorite player. It just seems inappropriate when it has nothing to do with what is being discussed. You declaring Shaq as your favorite player was part of your attempt to boost your argument. Even if he is your favorite player, it's not evidence.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:28 AM
This thread is so awesome, this is my favorite post for sure. It almost appears like you think wilt is fictional/a myth.

Since you replied back, where are the links? I've seen Arnold say Wilt could do this and that. If there is proof of Wilt's 100 point game, where is proof of the feats he accomplished? Bruce Lee had them, what's the excuse for Wilt?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:30 AM
You're such a hypocrite. "Talking down on me."
Quotations are meant for QUOTES. Explain when I said you guys were "talking down on me"?



Do you think you deserve to be talked with higher representation? No, if you were banned right now, the site moves on with no disturbance. Clearly you feel you are superior to most users based off your longevity on this site. Your ignorance, lack of factual evidence, and middle school spelling mistakes are atrocious.
Talked with higher representation? Can you explain that one to me? And why do you insist on talking about my posting history instead of the argument at hand?

And of course I feel superior to most, if not all posters here, but it has nothing to do with my "longevity" (notice the proper use of quotations), rather the lack of facts given.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:30 AM
This thread is so awesome, this is my favorite post for sure. It almost appears like you think wilt is fictional/a myth.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Wilt is fictional or a myth but when he's scoring 10000000 points a game while pulling down 200000 rebounds, who was his competiton? If Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem and others played against Wilt on a nightly basis...do you still think skinny Wilt would be as dominant?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:32 AM
I'm not questioning your favorite player. It just seems inappropriate when it has nothing to do with what is being discussed. You declaring Shaq as your favorite player was part of your attempt to boost your argument. Even if he is your favorite player, it's not evidence.
This further cements why I shouldn't take you seriously. You lack the ability to absorb context.

It was ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE. He was attempting to make it seem like Wilt Chamberlain was my fav/father, when in actuality, Shaq is my favorite player.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:34 AM
This further cements why I shouldn't take you seriously. You lack the ability to absorb context.

It was ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE. He was attempting to make it seem like Wilt Chamberlain was my fav/father, when in actuality, Shaq is my favorite player.

What is only cemented is the fact nearly all your statement have been false. Great, Shaq is your favorite player. Is that your evidence? If so, you need to YouTube some more video clips.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:36 AM
This thread is so awesome, this is my favorite post for sure. It almost appears like you think wilt is fictional/a myth.

To be honest, I just love when there is proof of events actually happening. Do you have proof or are you just youtubing videos of what Arnold (Who took steroids) said about Wilt?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:36 AM
Actually, Kareem was most dominant in the 70's. You don't seem to make much sense these days. Once again, maybe going to sleep will help you realize your silly posts.
LMFAO, your missing that part of the brain that assimilates context

Where did I say Kareem didn't dominate the 70's. Im saying he struggled vs Wilt/Thurmond to a degree he never struggled vs anyone else. Not even Hakeem/Sampson could contain KAJ in a playoff series the way those 2 did.

jayjay33
03-24-2013, 01:38 AM
LMFAO sounds like you didnt watch much basketball back in your youth. Apparently you missed when 6"7 Dennis Rodman played Shaq well enough to not get destroyed. And Wilt was a stronger, 7ft version of him. Imagine if Wilt had the advantages of todays nutrition/workout regimen. Damn he'd be even stronger than he already was.

Yes, he looked strong.. Against skinny white 6"7 centers. Get with the program, buddy.

Well, wilt was "reported" to be able to bench 500 pounds. Rodman was a work out warrior so I'm sure he's in that range. But any one who's ever played ball knows being taller makes it harder not easier to "hold your ground" in the post. Same reason we were taught to get a low center in football.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:39 AM
This further cements why I shouldn't take you seriously. You lack the ability to absorb context.

It was ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE. He was attempting to make it seem like Wilt Chamberlain was my fav/father, when in actuality, Shaq is my favorite player.

I made it seem like Wilt was your fav/father after a poster said I made this thread to troll you. I know a lot of posts have been made in this thread but let's try to keep up.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 01:40 AM
Since you replied back, where are the links? I've seen Arnold say Wilt could do this and that. If there is proof of Wilt's 100 point game, where is proof of the feats he accomplished? Bruce Lee had them, what's the excuse for Wilt?

I don't have any video, so do you think it didn't happen then. You think wilt chamberlain is some sort of major conspiracy? Everyone over the age of 50 agreed to claim that a player scored 100 points and had an amazing basketball career?

Here is a youtube video with the radio broadcast when it happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxMeEzhvNRs

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:40 AM
http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/f9/1b/f91b3f54c870243127c71efdb90a63d2.png

If this one game is your proof, you should really pull your cord and go night night. LeBron, Jordan, Kobe, Magic; all had off games. You're not proving much but the fact that a player can have bad games. Why do you make it seem as if Rodman was a typical scrub? He is the greatest rebounder of all time. He was strong, quick, and ferocious. Stop the useless replies with no evidence.

I didn't make it seem like Rodman was a scrub (count another one), Im showing why depicting Wilt as weak/frail when he was superior to the short/skinny Rodman doesn't add up. That you can be hella strong despite a difference in weight is the point of my argument.

And what are you trying to get at with those stats? I never said Shaq was locked down by Rodman, I said he held his own in the post despite the difference in girth/weight. Can your stats explain that? Nope, they simply show the numbers Shaq accrued in games that Rodman participated.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:40 AM
LMFAO, your missing that part of the brain that assimilates context

Where did I say Kareem didn't dominate the 70's. Im saying he struggled vs Wilt/Thurmond to a degree he never struggled vs anyone else. Not even Hakeem/Sampson could contain KAJ in a playoff series the way those 2 did.

You said Kareem struggled and yet the best players back then were Thurmond, Wilt, Bill, Oscar, and Jerry. Kareem put up his best numbers during the 70's, that which implies he was dominating in that decade as well. I don't know why you even bother replying. Every reply from you makes you seem clueless.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 01:41 AM
I wouldn't go as far as to say Wilt is fictional or a myth but when he's scoring 10000000 points a game while pulling down 200000 rebounds, who was his competiton? If Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem and others played against Wilt on a nightly basis...do you still think skinny Wilt would be as dominant?

No not at all. I also wouldn't compare him to harry potter though...

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:43 AM
I didn't make it seem like Rodman was a scrub (count another one), Im showing why depicting Wilt as weak/frail when he was superior to the short/skinny Rodman doesn't add up. That you can be hella strong despite a difference in weight is the point of my argument.

And what are you trying to get at with those stats? I never said Shaq was locked down by Rodman, I said he held his own in the post despite the difference in girth/weight. Can your stats explain that? Nope, they simply show the numbers Shaq accrued in games that Rodman participated.

Held his own? For one game, that doesn't mean anything based off the amount of games they played against each other. If one game is evidence for holding his own, every player would be able to hold their own. What you meant to say was Rodman did a great job on Shaq. That doesn't mean anything because plenty of players held their own. Where is this Wilt is stronger than Shaq implication coming from? Yes, he looked mighty powerful against 6"7 centers (the average height of a center during his era).

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:43 AM
What is only cemented is the fact nearly all your statement have been false. Great, Shaq is your favorite player. Is that your evidence? If so, you need to YouTube some more video clips.
Prove they are false. Try doing so without strawmen this time.

LOL at you trying to pass off Shaq being my favorite player as an argument, instead of the correction it was. He said Wilt was my father in an attempt to depict him as my binky. Sadly, Shaq is my binky. Thats not evidence, its a correction of a flawed perception. Get it yet?

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:44 AM
No not at all. I also wouldn't compare him to harry potter though...

I used Harry Potter as a reference to the fact that he said if Cromed ever read books of Wilt regarding his feats. Books aren't evidence when we are talking about feats that require video footage. If we want to use that analogy, why can't Harry Potter be realistic?

HouRealCoach
03-24-2013, 01:46 AM
Wilt was as fast as guards are now lol

He also benchpressed 500 lbs (used to lift weights with Arnold Schwarzenegger & Andre the Giant)

Had the long jump & shot put records back in his day also, along with a few other track records

His stamina was insane (sex with 25,000+ women..?)

Dude was a BEAST... But Shaq would still edge him in my opinion

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:46 AM
And what are you trying to get at with those stats? I never said Shaq was locked down by Rodman, I said he held his own in the post despite the difference in girth/weight. Can your stats explain that? Nope, they simply show the numbers Shaq accrued in games that Rodman participated.


Looking at the stats...explain to me how Rodman held his own? I'm seeing lopsided numbers in favor of Shaq.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:47 AM
Prove they are false. Try doing so without strawmen this time.

LOL at you trying to pass off Shaq being my favorite player as an argument, instead of the correction it was. He said Wilt was my father in an attempt to depict him as my binky. Sadly, Shaq is my binky. Thats not evidence, its a correction of a flawed perception. Get it yet?

I can't even discuss with your lack of evidence and constant replies of the same statements. It's basically you spewing nonsensical replies because you have no way of proving anything. I did prove it, Kareem dominated Wilt; not the other way around. Kareem played his best in the 70's; once again true. Rodman didn't hold his own on Shaq, Shaq just had one bad game; true. You on the other hand? "Haven't you read books of Wilt" or "Shaq is my favorite player, that is more than enough proof."

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:48 AM
Held his own? For one game, that doesn't mean anything based off the amount of games they played against each other. If one game is evidence for holding his own, every player would be able to hold their own. What you meant to say was Rodman did a great job on Shaq. That doesn't mean anything because plenty of players held their own.
So your argument is that the strength Rodman displayed in bodying up Shaq and holding position is something that can be flukish? And it wasn't one game, it was just the most known game. Again, your stats dont show how/when the 2 were matched up nor does it give us any context about how he fared in the post.




Where is this Wilt is stronger than Shaq implication coming from?
Where did you get that from?


Yes, he looked mighty powerful against 6"7 centers (the average height of a center during his era).

Yeah because Wilt never displayed feats of strength outside the basketball court. LMFAO

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:48 AM
Wilt was as fast as guards are now lol

He also benchpressed 500 lbs (used to lift weights with Arnold Schwarzenegger & Andre the Giant)

Had the long jump & shot put records back in his day also, along with a few other track records

His stamina was insane (sex with 25,000+ women..?)

Dude was a BEAST... But Shaq would still edge him in my opinion

You know, those are some amazing feats. Now how many of them can be proven? Bruce Lee can do 1 finger push ups. Bruce Lee can knock someone down and severely injure them with an 1 inch punch. Wilt? His proof is that of a steroid abuser in Arnold.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:50 AM
Where is video evidence? Book, yes, I picked up the Bible and Harry Potter books before. Are they real? Can you prove it? Nope. At least we have evidence of Bruce Lee's feats.

Hey your free to ignore the sheer magnitude and variety of testimonials given on Wilt. But you cant blame someone for siding with the majority over your limited opinion.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:50 AM
So your argument is that the strength Rodman displayed in bodying up Shaq and holding position is something that can be flukish? And it wasn't one game, it was just the most known game. Again, your stats dont show how/when the 2 were matched up nor does it give us any context about how he fared in the post.




Where did you get that from? How would we know whos stronger?


Yeah because Wilt never displayed feats of strength outside the basketball court. LMFAO

Again, if Wilt was capable of those feats that you are basing off of, wouldn't he be stronger than Shaq? Jesus Christ, you really have lost it. Speaking of those feats, I'm still waiting for video evidence. If not, I guess Arnold is more than enough proof.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 01:51 AM
I am going to try to clear this up, but will probably fail haha. The thread was created saying that shaq would eat this skinny man alive. Chronz has even said himself a peak shaq would probably be better than a peak wilt. The problem he had with the statements is that people were claiming shaq would dominate and one of the main reasons was wilt having a skinny frame.

Wilt wasn't some unathletic pencil out there on the court, he was a very very athletic player. Chronz tried to use an example of a player with a much smaller frame (rodman) who wasn't eaten alive by shaq. Thus proving that just because shaq was bigger doesn't necessarily mean he would destroy him and wilt wouldn't stand a chance. Of course shaq would still get his, no one could stop a prime shaq. Chronz never stated differently though. Ok thats all I got, I'm ready for the bashing...

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:52 AM
Hey your free to ignore the sheer magnitude and variety of testimonials given on Wilt. But you cant blame someone for siding with the majority over your limited opinion.

Majority? Most of them are saying Shaq would dominate. Maybe you should private message your pals to help you with this discussion. It seems you are unable to do so on your behalf. Lack of evidence, replies that demand evidence and all we get are kiddy statements.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:53 AM
Looking at the stats...explain to me how Rodman held his own? I'm seeing lopsided numbers in favor of Shaq.
Of course, Rodman was a far inferior player, my point is that you have to watch the game to understand context. He held his own with regards to post positioning. That Shaq didn't murder a short and skinny guy leads me to believe he wouldn't murder a taller/stronger guy.


Its like when we saw Shaq have major success against Ben Wallace in the Finals. Ben Wallace was outplayed, and Shaq put up his numbers, but the mere fact that Ben Wallace was able to play him 1 on 1 without getting completely obliterated is a testament to his defense.

This is what I mean by context. Looking at the numbers is a good start, but you still have to consider the strategies employed.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 01:54 AM
I am going to try to clear this up, but will probably fail haha. The thread was created saying that shaq would eat this skinny man alive. Chronz has even said himself a peak shaq would probably be better than a peak wilt. The problem he had with the statements is that people were claiming shaq would dominate and one of the main reasons was wilt having a skinny frame.

Wilt wasn't some unathletic pencil out there on the court, he was a very very athletic player. Chronz tried to use an example of a player with a much smaller frame (rodman) who wasn't eaten alive by shaq. Thus proving that just because shaq was bigger doesn't necessarily mean he would destroy him and wilt wouldn't stand a chance. Of course shaq would still get his, no one could stop a prime shaq. Chronz never stated differently though. Ok thats all I got, I'm ready for the bashing...

Except you forget the fact that Rodman never held his own. Hakeem could barely hold his own against Shaq and he had a bigger frame than Rodman while also being slim.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:54 AM
Do you have a brain to distinguish information given to you? If you don't believe Wilt could average 50/25, you're only implying that he wouldn't be as good in this era. Maybe you should watch WNBA games instead.

LMFAO nope, all your proving is your inability to translate statistics.

jayjay33
03-24-2013, 01:55 AM
You'll be banned because his friends are all moderators. Rest assured, they always come to his rescue when he's losing it.





:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod: :nod::nod::nod:

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 01:56 AM
Most of these Wilt stories are borderline boarderline Chuck Norris "facts".

Separating fact from fiction, can you really say that if Wilt had "real" comepetition that his superman numbers would stay the same?

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 01:57 AM
Except you forget the fact that Rodman never held his own. Hakeem could barely hold his own against Shaq and he had a bigger frame than Rodman while also being slim.

Now I would love some proof of this. Dont just show stats of when their teams played each other because that doesn't show what shaq vs rodman was like.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 01:59 AM
Have you checked their stats vs each other? Kareem has an edge and dominated Wilt in many cases. Wilt had also stated that he needed help against Kareem. You seem to be handpicking segments rather than the full story.
Forgive me but I dont trust your ability to interpret statistics nor evaluate context. Wilt held KAJ to something like 40% shooting in the Final 4 games of their series, blocked like 10 of his shots one game and thoroughly intimidated KAJ (his own coach admitted it) when it mattered most. Of course hes going to get his numbers, its about making him work, Kareem never struggled to the degree he did vs Wilt/Thurmond, this despite (as you already admitted) him being at his apex statistically.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 02:00 AM
Its like when we saw Shaq have major success against Ben Wallace in the Finals. Ben Wallace was outplayed, and Shaq put up his numbers, but the mere fact that Ben Wallace was able to play him 1 on 1 without getting completely obliterated is a testament to his defense.
This is what I mean by context. Looking at the numbers is a good start, but you still have to consider the strategies employed.

I understand what you're saying but i'm pretty sure that if Ben Wallace played against a PRIME Shaq...this able to play him 1 on 1 nonsense wouldn't not be discussed right now.

Prime Shaq destroyed some of the top centers of all time...but you're saying Denis Rodman, 1 on 1 , held his own?

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:00 AM
Now I would love some proof of this. Dont just show stats of when their teams played each other because that doesn't show what shaq vs rodman was like.

You just helped my argument. Shaq had to go up against the Bulls; one of the greatest teams ever assembled. He had to deal with Jordan/Pippen and Rodman was a defensive pest who was 10x the crazy psycho of Artest. Wilt posting 50/25 blinds people from reality. The way I see it, would Wilt post 50/25 now? If not, then he wasn't playing against the best of the best.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:02 AM
I can't even discuss with your lack of evidence and constant replies of the same statements.
Says mr Strawman.


It's basically you spewing nonsensical replies because you have no way of proving anything. I did prove it, Kareem dominated Wilt; not the other way around. Kareem played his best in the 70's; once again true. Rodman didn't hold his own on Shaq, Shaq just had one bad game; true. You on the other hand? "Haven't you read books of Wilt" or "Shaq is my favorite player, that is more than enough proof."
Im sorry but Ill take the overwhelming opinion that Wilt intimidated KAJ, I can find you the press clippings along with other quotes if you like. Wilt played KAJ to a standstill in one series and severely stunted his efficiency in the other, so much so that the Milwaukee crowd actually applauded Wilt Chamberlain during one of their series.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:03 AM
Forgive me but I dont trust your ability to interpret statistics nor evaluate context. Wilt held KAJ to something like 40% shooting in the Final 4 games of their series, blocked like 10 of his shots one game and thoroughly intimidated KAJ (his own coach admitted it) when it mattered most. Of course hes going to get his numbers, its about making him work, Kareem never struggled to the degree he did vs Wilt/Thurmond, this despite (as you already admitted) him being at his apex statistically.

Wilt himself admitted that he needed help on Kareem. Wilt did not post better statistical numbers against Kareem. I'm basing this off the fact that you said Kareem was not as dominant against Wilt/Thurmond. If Wilt/Thurmond were top players of the 70's and that was the decade Kareem posted the best numbers of his career, how did he get those huge numbers? Granted, there were 18-22 teams in that era and Kareem more than held his own.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:04 AM
Says mr Strawman.


Im sorry but Ill take the overwhelming opinion that Wilt intimidated KAJ, I can find you the press clippings along with other quotes if you like. Wilt played KAJ to a standstill in one series and severely stunted his efficiency in the other, so much so that the Milwaukee crowd actually applauded Wilt Chamberlain during one of their series.

Show me the video of him benching and I'll drop it. I don't want quotes, that doesn't mean anything.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:05 AM
I understand what you're saying but i'm pretty sure that if Ben Wallace played against a PRIME Shaq...this able to play him 1 on 1 nonsense wouldn't not be discussed right now.

Prime Shaq destroyed some of the top centers of all time...but you're saying Denis Rodman, 1 on 1 , held his own?
Agreed, so long as you understand the point, Im all good.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:06 AM
Most of these Wilt stories are borderline boarderline Chuck Norris "facts".

Separating fact from fiction, can you really say that if Wilt had "real" comepetition that his superman numbers would stay the same?
Most? Doubt it. Even so, the sheer abundance of them is more relevant than your inability to suspend your disbelief.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 02:07 AM
You just helped my argument. Shaq had to go up against the Bulls; one of the greatest teams ever assembled. He had to deal with Jordan/Pippen and Rodman was a defensive pest who was 10x the crazy psycho of Artest. Wilt posting 50/25 blinds people from reality. The way I see it, would Wilt post 50/25 now? If not, then he wasn't playing against the best of the best.

Never said he was playing against the best of the best. My point is Wilt and his skinny frame wouldn't necessarily been eaten alive by shaq purely because of his size. Sure he wouldn't get 50 and 25 but we don't know exactly what he would get or how much his game/athletic ability would be different in this era with all the medical advancements etc.

Wilt was like 7'1, 275? That is a much larger frame than multiple people who at least made shaq struggle a little more than usual. So while shaq would win the matchup in their peak (which hasnt really been argued against), it wouldn't be because his skinny frame got eaten alive.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:07 AM
Says mr Strawman.


Im sorry but Ill take the overwhelming opinion that Wilt intimidated KAJ, I can find you the press clippings along with other quotes if you like. Wilt played KAJ to a standstill in one series and severely stunted his efficiency in the other, so much so that the Milwaukee crowd actually applauded Wilt Chamberlain during one of their series.


1972 regular season (5 games): Kareem (40.2 ppg) outscored Chamberlain (14 ppg).

1972 playoffs (6 games): Kareem (33.6 ppg) outscored Chamberlain (11.2 ppg).

Once again, you've proved nothing.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:08 AM
Show me the video of him benching and I'll drop it. I don't want quotes, that doesn't mean anything.
Your free to believe whatever you want, but in the face of such overwhelming anecdotes, the burden of proof lies on you. Why should anyone believe you and your complete lack of evidence, over those anecdotes? What reason would soooo many people have to lie?

HouRealCoach
03-24-2013, 02:11 AM
Most of these Wilt stories are borderline boarderline Chuck Norris "facts".

Separating fact from fiction, can you really say that if Wilt had "real" comepetition that his superman numbers would stay the same?

Chuck Norris facts aren't anywhere near possible lol

I could see if they were saying he could curl 550 with one arm & run a 3.8 in the 40 but his things are possible though.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:12 AM
I made it seem like Wilt was your fav/father after a poster said I made this thread to troll you. I know a lot of posts have been made in this thread but let's try to keep up.
LOL the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. The point remains, you referred to him as my father, I simply made sure you understood that Wilt being one of my favs doesn't change my argument because Shaq is in fact my favorite player.

There are lots of players you could troll me with.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 02:12 AM
Most? Doubt it. Even so, the sheer abundance of them is more relevant than your inability to suspend your disbelief.

It's more about the level of competition he played against and less about disbelief. Like I said, I could score 120 points against weak 6 year old kids too.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:14 AM
Never said he was playing against the best of the best. My point is Wilt and his skinny frame wouldn't necessarily been eaten alive by shaq purely because of his size. Sure he wouldn't get 50 and 25 but we don't know exactly what he would get or how much his game/athletic ability would be different in this era with all the medical advancements etc.

Wilt was like 7'1, 275? That is a much larger frame than multiple people who at least made shaq struggle a little more than usual. So while shaq would win the matchup in their peak (which hasnt really been argued against), it wouldn't be because his skinny frame got eaten alive.

I understand that view but people need to realize that Shaq played against the best centers in a league surrounded with centers and heavy competition from all positions. Wilt never played in such era. Seriously, 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? The best season was Jordan's 32,8,8 and that pales in comparison to 50/25. Let's be honest, there's a reason why no one is pulling up close to 50 points and 25 rebounds in modern era. It's not because they aren't good enough, it's because talent is at an all time high and it's much harder to score and rebound. 6"7 was the average height of a center in Wilt's era. That height would be a SF in today's league.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:16 AM
Your free to believe whatever you want, but in the face of such overwhelming anecdotes, the burden of proof lies on you. Why should anyone believe you and your complete lack of evidence, over those anecdotes? What reason would soooo many people have to lie?

Arnold lied about steroids and he's your best proof? Okay, if that's the case, good night.

OceanSpray
03-24-2013, 02:18 AM
It's more about the level of competition he played against and less about disbelief. Like I said, I could score 120 points against weak 6 year old kids too.

Exactly. 7"1 center outrebounding and dunking over 6"7 in the paint must've been the dominating factor we've missed out. Not to mention that those centers weighed 220-230 over Wilt's frame of 7"1 and 275. Tomorrow I'm going to the park and hopefully there will be midgets out there for me to put up 100 points and 70000 rebounds.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:19 AM
Again, if Wilt was capable of those feats that you are basing off of, wouldn't he be stronger than Shaq?
Nope because you see, in order to quantify these sort of things you would need a basis for comparison and you would have to differentiate what aspects of strength your speaking of. My argument isn't that hes stronger than Shaq because I wouldn't know how to quantify that, my point is that Wilt was arguably the strongest in NBA history and was most definitely not weak, far from it in fact.

Plz absorb this context before responding.


Jesus Christ, you really have lost it. Speaking of those feats, I'm still waiting for video evidence. If not, I guess Arnold is more than enough proof.
Arnold? Thats 1 person. You really think hes alone? LMFAO

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 02:22 AM
I understand that view but people need to realize that Shaq played against the best centers in a league surrounded with centers and heavy competition from all positions. Wilt never played in such era. Seriously, 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? The best season was Jordan's 32,8,8 and that pales in comparison to 50/25. Let's be honest, there's a reason why no one is pulling up close to 50 points and 25 rebounds in modern era. It's not because they aren't good enough, it's because talent is at an all time high and it's much harder to score and rebound. 6"7 was the average height of a center in Wilt's era. That height would be a SF in today's league.

How many times do I have to say I don't think he played in the best era and I definitely don't think he would get 50 and 25 today. I have no idea what he would average but no one does. Why do you keep bringing it back to that? The biggest issue here is that with his size and athleticism it's unfair to say shaq would eat his skinny frame alive, especially when smaller frames have done an ok job.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:24 AM
Wilt himself admitted that he needed help on Kareem. Wilt did not post better statistical numbers against Kareem.
Where did I say he posted better numbers? I said KAJ wasn't as dominant vs those 2 players as he was the likes of Hakeem/Sampson (players from the 80's). Im comparing KAJ to himself, his performance vs differing opponents.


I'm basing this off the fact that you said Kareem was not as dominant against Wilt/Thurmond.
Exactly, he never struggled to the degree that he did vs those 2, ESPECIALLY Thurmond.



If Wilt/Thurmond were top players of the 70's and that was the decade Kareem posted the best numbers of his career, how did he get those huge numbers? Granted, there were 18-22 teams in that era and Kareem more than held his own.
I dont understand your confusion. Im talking about specific matchups/playoff series. Regular season doesn't involve the same kind of intensity/scouting.

iFYouSeekAmy
03-24-2013, 02:27 AM
shoes Shaq wore >>> Wilt's

Wilt also had the benefit of camping in the paint thus establishing the three second rule

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:29 AM
It's more about the level of competition he played against and less about disbelief. Like I said, I could score 120 points against weak 6 year old kids too.

Again, I get that you believe that but I dont find your comparison to be valid.

We've seen Wilt/Thurmond (2 players who were out of their primes in the 70's) hold Kareem down in ways no other player ever has. Not even Hakeem/Sampson could contain Kareem the way those 2 did in the playoffs. So in terms of competition, Wilt has proven his worth. I mean, Nate Thurmond was an All-Time great defender, the best according to Kareem, and while he was able to supress Wilts efficiency, the fact that he was able to post big numbers on him (in the Finals no less) is something that even Kareem couldnt claim to do in a playoff series setting. That doesn't sound like a 6 year old to me.

el hidalgo
03-24-2013, 02:33 AM
How stupid are you people? They are clearly trolling the hell out of you.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:34 AM
Never said he was playing against the best of the best. My point is Wilt and his skinny frame wouldn't necessarily been eaten alive by shaq purely because of his size. Sure he wouldn't get 50 and 25 but we don't know exactly what he would get or how much his game/athletic ability would be different in this era with all the medical advancements etc.

Wilt was like 7'1, 275? That is a much larger frame than multiple people who at least made shaq struggle a little more than usual. So while shaq would win the matchup in their peak (which hasnt really been argued against), it wouldn't be because his skinny frame got eaten alive.

Bingo. We've seen Shaq look ordinary against a 6"7 210lb PF but a behemoth of a man will get eaten alive? Obviously there is more to defending Shaq than your physical stature. Elden Cambell/Arvydas/Hakeem/D-Rob were guys who gave Shaq the most fits in his prime, he outweighed and towered vs them to a greater degree than Wilt. Yet he didn't simply destroy them. And D-Rob was definitely skinnier than Wilt. So there has to be more to the equation.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:34 AM
I understand that view but people need to realize that Shaq played against the best centers in a league surrounded with centers and heavy competition from all positions. Wilt never played in such era. Seriously, 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? The best season was Jordan's 32,8,8 and that pales in comparison to 50/25. Let's be honest, there's a reason why no one is pulling up close to 50 points and 25 rebounds in modern era. It's not because they aren't good enough, it's because talent is at an all time high and it's much harder to score and rebound. 6"7 was the average height of a center in Wilt's era. That height would be a SF in today's league.
Prove ANY of this.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:35 AM
Arnold lied about steroids and he's your best proof? Okay, if that's the case, good night.

LMFAO keep them straws coming. What I DID say was that there are PLENTY more outside of him. TRY HARDER

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:36 AM
How stupid are you people? They are clearly trolling the hell out of you.
Even if they didn't believe this ignorance, I would still respond. Call me stupid if you wish but I kind of enjoy these spats.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:40 AM
LMFAO keep them straws coming. What I DID say was that there are PLENTY more outside of him. TRY HARDER
By the way, that Arnold lied about steroids, wouldn't that make the feat of beating him in the weight room and tossing him around like a rag doll all the more impressive?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 02:41 AM
Chuck Norris facts aren't anywhere near possible lol

I could see if they were saying he could curl 550 with one arm & run a 3.8 in the 40 but his things are possible though.
Will he respond? Doubt it.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 02:55 AM
I am a bit late to this thread but really? Wilt was only skinny because he was a track runner just like Bill.


here is a good video to show you how athletic he was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

Every damned player and coach from that era says he was an insanely strong person. One of his best friends Arnold Schwarzenneger used to be amazed at his lifting skills.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 02:59 AM
1972 regular season (5 games): Kareem (40.2 ppg) outscored Chamberlain (14 ppg).

1972 playoffs (6 games): Kareem (33.6 ppg) outscored Chamberlain (11.2 ppg).

Once again, you've proved nothing.


Wow... do you realize in that year Wilt wasn't focusing on scoring at all? The scoring on that team were Jerry West and Gail Goodrich.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:04 AM
Will he respond? Doubt it.

How am I supposed to respond to this? Stop with your attitude towards me because it's getting ridiculous and i'm not sure where it's coming from. Why don't you tell me where it's coming from so we can address the real problem here.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:06 AM
Again, I get that you believe that but I dont find your comparison to be valid.

We've seen Wilt/Thurmond (2 players who were out of their primes in the 70's) hold Kareem down in ways no other player ever has. Not even Hakeem/Sampson could contain Kareem the way those 2 did in the playoffs. So in terms of competition, Wilt has proven his worth. I mean, Nate Thurmond was an All-Time great defender, the best according to Kareem, and while he was able to supress Wilts efficiency, the fact that he was able to post big numbers on him (in the Finals no less) is something that even Kareem couldnt claim to do in a playoff series setting. That doesn't sound like a 6 year old to me.

How many records were broken by Wilt during his battles with Thurmond, Kareem or anyone in the late 70's?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:07 AM
I am a bit late to this thread but really? Wilt was only skinny because he was a track runner just like Bill.


here is a good video to show you how athletic he was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

Every damned player and coach from that era says he was an insanely strong person. One of his best friends Arnold Schwarzenneger used to be amazed at his lifting skills.

LOL all LIES.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:07 AM
How stupid are you people? They are clearly trolling the hell out of you.

This is a basketball disussion so leave your childish "troll" coversation for the children who actually troll this site.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:08 AM
How many records were broken by Wilt during his battles with Thurmond, Kareem or anyone in the late 70's?
Not sure? Whats your point anyways?

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:09 AM
How many records were broken by Wilt during his battles with Thurmond, Kareem or anyone in the late 70's?

Unfair question. He was much older by then, wasn't asked to score as much and couldn't have broken his own records.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:10 AM
Not sure? Whats your point anyways?

My point (from the start) has been Wilt played against weak competition during his prime.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:12 AM
LOL all LIES.

Really? Every single one of them? Do you really think there is a massive conspiracy going on here?

here's a recent article.




KANSAS CITY, Mo. Lennie Rosenbluth remembers darkness and silence. He couldn’t do anything about the darkness. Municipal Auditorium was – still is – poorly lit, full of corners and angles, even more so back in 1957. The silence had everything to do with Rosenbluth and North Carolina.

Still undefeated after a triple-overtime win over Michigan State in the semifinals, the Tar Heels upset Wilt Chamberlain and Kansas, again in triple-overtime, even after Rosenbluth fouled out late in regulation. Despite the Jayhawks’ home-court advantage, it was quiet at the start and quiet at the finish, after Joe Quigg hit two free throws to seal the 54-53 win.

“The unusual part of it was how quiet the crowd was, said Rosenbluth, 80, one of the great scorers in college basketball history. “(5-foot-10) Tommy Kearns went to jump center against Chamberlain, and there was a hush over the crowd. We opened up with a fast flurry of points and we were up 10 or 12 before they could turn around. The crowd was out of it for nine-tenths of the game. Once we won the game, you could hear a pin drop in the stadium, in Municipal Auditorium. It was so quiet. We were the only ones that were cheering. People filed out so quickly you couldn’t believe it.”

As the Tar Heels return to Kansas City, possibly to play Kansas yet again if they can get past Villanova on Friday and the Jayhawks advance as well, albeit in a shiny new arena, the events of 56 years ago still resonate with both programs and throughout college basketball.

The Tar Heels, a program built from almost nothing in only a few years by coach Frank McGuire with New York imports like Rosenbluth, Quigg, Kearns and Pete Brennan, knocked off heavily favored Kansas in front of a very partisan crowd, with both of the 32-0 Tar Heels’ games in the Final Four beamed back to North Carolina in a television experiment that would prove a resounding success.

And while he was in Kansas City for the Final Four, McGuire met with a young Air Force assistant coach who had played and coached at Kansas. A year later, McGuire hired Dean Smith, and the rest is history.

Rosenbluth, who moved back to Chapel Hill a few years ago after spending most of his adult life in Florida, was the ACC’s biggest star that year, a 6-foot-5 forward who could score from anywhere and was at the center of the Tar Heels’ New York-influenced give-and-go offense. He averaged 28.0 points per game that season, still a North Carolina school record, scoring 29 points against the Spartans and 20 against the Jayhawks before fouling out.

His fame, however, paled in comparison to that of Chamberlain, the 7-foot-1 center from Philadelphia who in his first and only season at Kansas was a national sensation. Even Rosenbluth marveled at his athleticism – and the Tar Heels’ ability to minimize his impact in overtime by forcing the Jayhawks to shoot from outside, although Chamberlain still scored a game-high 23 that night.

“Wilt, at that time, is the best big man who ever played the game,” Rosenbluth said. “You’re talking about an athlete. He high-jumped in college, did the running broad jump in track. This guy can jump. He can play. In the first OT, each team scores two points. The second OT, five minutes more, neither team scores. Here you have on your team Wilt Chamberlain, and you go 10 minutes and only two points are scored. That’s kind of weird.”

Rosenbluth went back to Kansas City in 1988 to be honored as one of the 50 greatest players in NCAA tournament history. He’s back again this week to watch the Tar Heels play, with the same opponent lurking. He visited Memorial Auditorium on Thursday – and the current team plans to take a tour Friday – but his memories need no refreshing.

“When I went there 25 years ago, it was the same place – dark as the dickens,” Rosenbluth said. “I’ve never seen a stadium, and I’m going back 50 years, 55 years remembering, I’ve never seen a stadium as dark as that basketball court. Between the smoke and the auditorium and the lights, it was one of the darkest places I ever played in.”

That’s where his undefeated season finished, and so much else began. It’s hard to think of two programs more closely intertwined than North Carolina and Kansas. There’s Dean, and Roy Williams, and Larry Brown, and even as they face the prospect of another potential rematch on Sunday, the two programs are fighting over the top recruit in the country, Andrew Wiggins. Those links began here, in Kansas City, in 1957.

The relationship between North Carolina and Kansas wasn’t the only thing built that weekend. There are four Final Fours that did more than any others to change the game of college basketball. That was one of them.

Texas Western’s all-black starting five defeating all-white Kentucky in 1966 is one. So is 1979, when Magic Johnson and Larry Bird set the stage for the growth of both college and pro basketball. The 1971 Final Four set attendance records at the Astrodome, the first to be played in a football stadium. It would be 11 years before the Final Four was played at a dome again, but the NCAA hasn’t looked back since.

Then there was 1957. The television pioneer C.D. Chesley televised North Carolina’s triple-overtime win over Michigan State in the semifinals and the triple-overtime win over Kansas in the finals, but he had no idea whether anyone was watching until the Tar Heels got home and fans were lining Highway 70 all the way to the airport.

“When they got back, Chesley knew those people had seen it,” retired News & Observer sports columnist Caulton Tudor said. “That’s what everybody was talking about. That told him ACC basketball would work regionally, and he started putting it together. … That changed the way everybody looked at TV. That weekend, those games, he saw what it could be.”

On the court, meanwhile, North Carolina’s sudden success was the first real challenge to Everett Case at N.C. State, setting the tone for all the Tobacco Road rivalry to follow. Soon, players from all over the country were heading south to play basketball, and the sport went from local curiosity to regional passion in North Carolina.

“We won it, of course, three years after the ACC was founded,” Rosenbluth said. “Right away, people start talking about this new conference. A lot of people became basketball fans. And then C.D. Chesley televised those games back to North Carolina, the finals, and next year there was so much interest in basketball he began the game of the week.”

What the ACC became – what it is now – owes a great deal to what happened here in 1957. The same can be said of North Carolina and Kansas, who await each other again if circumstances dictate.



Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/03/21/3931242/decock-uncs-lennie-rosenbluth.html#storylink=cpy

Are you really saying all these people are liars?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:16 AM
1972 regular season (5 games): Kareem (40.2 ppg) outscored Chamberlain (14 ppg).

1972 playoffs (6 games): Kareem (33.6 ppg) outscored Chamberlain (11.2 ppg).

Once again, you've proved nothing.

LOL once again proving your inability to absorb context. Do you see the presence of the word EFFICIENCY in my post? I love how you didn't talk about the series before that one or KAJ shooting like 40% shooting in the final 4 games, not a mention about what his own coach and the press had to say about Wilt blocking so many "ublockable" skyhooks, and have nothing to say about Thurmond.

Sorry bro but you have proven not to understand statistics or context, I'll take majority opinion + the facts that back them over your unsubstantiated opinion.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:18 AM
How am I supposed to respond to this? Stop with your attitude towards me because it's getting ridiculous and i'm not sure where it's coming from. Why don't you tell me where it's coming from so we can address the real problem here.

By backing your opinion that they were "Chuck Norris facts". Show us what exactly you find hard to believe because I dont see ANY reason to side with someone who has admitted to not knowing much of that era over the COUNTLESS testimonials. Why would so many people lie about Wilt? I can totally see why one individual who didn't witness/research anything would lie.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:19 AM
Chronz....If a prime Shaq played in the same era as Wilt, do you think Shaq would have a good chance to have better stats than Wilt overall?

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:19 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/kareem-abdul-jabbars-nasty-open-letter-to-scottie-pippen?urn=nba,wp4090

Btw, I don't know if you guys remember this. This is a Pro Wilt argument from a certain Mr Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Kareem doesn't get pissed off very often.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:19 AM
By backing your opinion that they were "Chuck Norris facts". Show us what exactly you find hard to believe because I dont see ANY reason to side with someone who has admitted to not knowing much of that era over the COUNTLESS testimonials. Why would so many people lie about Wilt? I can totally see why one individual who didn't witness/research anything would lie.


I find it hard to believe that if Wilt had any real competition during his prime that he would have the same records he has today.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:20 AM
My point (from the start) has been Wilt played against weak competition during his prime.

I meant explain the post. I already know what your opinion on that matter is. I've already explained why Im not swayed by your "argument". Im now curious as to what that reference had to do with anything being discussed.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:20 AM
I can totally see why one individual who didn't witness/research anything would lie.

Lie? Can you explain this?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:22 AM
I meant explain the post. I already know what your opinion on that matter is. I've already explained why Im not swayed by your "argument". Im now curious as to what that reference had to do with anything being discussed.

The Norris "facts" are unbelievable...as are the records Wilt has since the level of competition during his era wasn't close to being even.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:25 AM
Chronz....If a prime Shaq played in the same era as Wilt, do you think Shaq would have a good chance to have better stats than Wilt overall?
Thats what you dont get, he ALREADY has better stats than Wilt, its partly why I had him winning the matchup. And since I already agreed that Shaq would win the matchup, doesnt it stand to reason that I think hes a better player and would thus be more productive?

Since you brought it up, do we get to give Shaq all the medical/nutritional advances that werent present back then? We also get to ignore racial climate and the pressures that come with it? What do you make of the fact that you could literally punch players with no foul being called back then?

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:26 AM
I find it hard to believe that if Wilt had any real competition during his prime that he would have the same records he has today.


I don't like going to Yahoo answers for stuff but this rather old reply is for people like you who say he had no competition.


Two of the NBA's greatest players, Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, are often criticized for playing in a "weak" era. This is far from the truth, as the 1960s were a very good time for basketball. A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevertheless hall of famers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents:

Boston Celtics: Bill Russel, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm
Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas
Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer
New York Knicks: Willis Reed
San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond
St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit
Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere
Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy

Russel and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russel and Chamberlain faced included:

1960-1964:

Dolph Schayes
Bob Pettit
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas

1965-1968:

Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond

1969-1972:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens

One reason fans tend to lash out at these legends is the absurd stats of not only Russel and Chamberlain, but average players as well, as it was not uncommon for a player to average 15-20 rebounds per game. There are several reasons for the high rebound rates of these players:

a. A high tempo offense. The average team in 1965 shot about 600 more shots than a team in 1985 and about 1400 more shots than a team in 2005.

b. Less fouls called. In 1965, the average team had 2076 personal fouls per season. In 2005, 1856 personal fouls were called. But keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result, a lowing field goal percentage, and more shots allowed to be rebounded.

When adjusting the field goal percentage to 45% and reducing the shots taken to the normal rate today, the rebounding rate drops to a more familiar rate for most players. Elgin Baylor would dropped to around 9 boards a game and Nate Thurmond to around 12. However, both Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, even with the adjusted stats, still averaged between 16-20 rebounds per game, showing that they truly did dominate like few others.

Another common misperception is that Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"

Two other factors to keep in mind:

a. The NBA was less interested in promoting itself 40 years ago, and therefore, did not see the need to measure players with their shoes on. Almost all players today are listed 1-2 inches taller than their actual height.

b. The NBA had 1/3 of the players that they do now. That means Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain faced these 25 guys 3 times more often than they would in the modern nba scheduling.

The truth is, height will never be more of a factor than skill. With several exceptions, players over 7' are typically not very successful. At a collegian level, only three 7 footers have made all-American first team in the last twenty years: Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, and Chris Mihm. In this years all star game, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, and Chris Kaman were the only three of 30 players selected to be 7 feet, and all are known far more for their skill sets than dominating with size. If height was such a significant factor, then Manute Bol, Shawn Bradly, and Gheorghe Muresan would be hall of fame players, not just fan favorite scrubs.

The overall talent of the 1960s is greatly underestimated as well. The stamina that players in the 1960s have is far greater than anything seen today

1965 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Oscar Robertson, 45.6 mpg
2. Bill Russel, 45.2 mpg
3. Wilt Chamberlain, 44.4 mpg

2005 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Lebron James, 42.3 mpg
2. Allen Iverson, 42.3 mpg
3. Gilbert Arenas 40.9 mpg

In addition, teams never walked up the court and held the ball for 12

3 years ago
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seconds, and then have four players watch as the fifth tries to get to the hoop. Most teams in the 60s tried to get a fast break after every rebound and in the half court set, the ball moved and players were setting screens and cutting to the basket. Yet players were doing this on a nightly basis, without fancy trainers giving massages and various methods to help muscle recovery. In addition, players were far more versatile as Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Dave Debusschere, and other players could play 3 or 4 positions. Many performances that players had would be considered triple doubles in todays game, but assist rules were far stricter in the 1960s, as the average team in the 1960s made 1000 more field goals per year than a team in 2005, yet averaged 100 less assists.

The 1960s produced some of the leagues finest stars, and it is an absolute travesty that these legends are debunked for playing in a weak era when it is clearly not the case.


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100224214633AAvvebd

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:26 AM
Stop with your attitude towards me because it's getting ridiculous and i'm not sure where it's coming from. Why don't you tell me where it's coming from so we can address the real problem here.

Will he respond? Doubt it.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:26 AM
The Norris "facts" are unbelievable...as are the records Wilt has since the level of competition during his era wasn't close to being even.
Forget it, we clearly cant communicate, Im asking about the 70's and why you mentioned records being broken during that time period.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:28 AM
I don't like going to Yahoo answers for stuff but this rather old reply is for people like you who say he had no competition.


On a nightly basis? Cool. Which 1 of these hall of famers did he score 100 points against?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:29 AM
Forget it, we clearly cant communicate, Im asking about the 70's and why you mentioned records being broken during that time period.

I'm not sure why you brought up the 70's in the first place when I was talking about the 50's/60's. We TRULY can't communicate.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:29 AM
The Norris "facts" are unbelievable...as are the records Wilt has since the level of competition during his era wasn't close to being even.

Remember Willis Reed and Walt Bellamy? How about Dave DeBuscherre?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:30 AM
Really? Every single one of them? Do you really think there is a massive conspiracy going on here?

here's a recent article.






Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/03/21/3931242/decock-uncs-lennie-rosenbluth.html#storylink=cpy

Are you really saying all these people are liars?

No Im poking fun at these guys not being able to believe these feats of strength/athleticism.


Lie? Can you explain this?
Sorry, poor word choice
Replace lie with dismiss. Like if we showed you 100 testimonials that depicted Wilt's epic strength, you wouldn't believe them. But you would not be able to convince anyone that they were ALL liars. On the other hand, we can all see why 1 individual would rather ignore them.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:31 AM
On a nightly basis? Cool. Which 1 of these hall of famers did he score 100 points against?

Aren't you a Knicks fan? You of all people should know it was Darell Imhoff who was a 6-10 player.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:31 AM
Remember Willis Reed and Walt Bellamy? How about Dave DeBuscherre?

On a nightly basis? Cool. According to you and your yahoo stats...there were what, 3/4 teams in total?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:32 AM
Aren't you a Knicks fan? You of all people should know it was Darell Imhoff who was a 6-10 player.

Ah yes, the unstoppable Darell Imhoff. How could I forget such greatness?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:33 AM
"New York Knickerbockers

Imhoff was the most highly publicized draft pick of the NBA that same year. The New York Knickerbockers, picking third overall, made him their first pick, a move which generated much excitement for the team. The Knicks had two all-stars already, Richie Guerin and Willie Naulls, and looked for Imhoff to complete a potential contender in the league's largest city. Imhoff unfortunately, was not up to the pressure and had a season which fell well below hopes. Disappointed, he was the second backup center by season's end. Considered a major bust, he was dealt to the Detroit Pistons in 1962."

Unstoppable.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:34 AM
Ah yes, the unstoppable Darell Imhoff. How could I forget such greatness?

Well, he was 6-10. He stands as an example of height not helping out even in that so called "weak era".

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:35 AM
I'm not sure why you brought up the 70's in the first place when I was talking about the 50's/60's. We TRULY can't communicate.

I brought up the 70s because an OLD Wilt played in that era (briefly) and more than proved his worth vs quality competition.

I bring up KAJ because he is the bridge that connects several eras and competitors. Hes faced off vs Wilt/Thurmond (2 players from the 60's era) and struggled massively vs Thurmond ( he doesn't refer to him as the best defender hes ever faced without reason), but hes also lasted long enough to face the wave of Centers that played into the 90's (Like Hakeem/Ewing). Hes a great basis for comparison because hes faced them all.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:36 AM
Well, he was 6-10. He stands as an example of height not helping out even in that so called "weak era".

Did you mention the fact that players were measured differently aka more accurately than they are in the Stern promotion era?

Like Hakeem is 6"10 but is listed as a 7 ft'er, you didnt get that in the old days. Even Charles Barkley has been listed at several different heights. On average you should prolly tack on .5 of an inch onto those players.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:36 AM
Well, he was 6-10. He stands as an example of height not helping out even in that so called "weak era".

What are you even talking about right now. Prime Shaq vs who now? Stop wasting everyones time.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:38 AM
Will he respond? Doubt it.

Its in your head.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:38 AM
What are you even talking about right now. Prime Shaq vs who now? Stop wasting everyones time.

what the ****? I am not even talking about Shaq.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:39 AM
I brought up the 70s because an OLD Wilt played in that era (briefly) and more than proved his worth vs quality competition.

I bring up KAJ because he is the bridge that connects several eras and competitors. Hes faced off vs Wilt/Thurmond (2 players from the 60's era) and struggled massively vs Thurmond ( he doesn't refer to him as the best defender hes ever faced without reason), but hes also lasted long enough to face the wave of Centers that played into the 90's (Like Hakeem/Ewing). Hes a great basis for comparison because hes faced them all.

You may has missed the point of this thread. I'm talking about the records and the greatness of Wilt being called into question if he went against players such as Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem on a nightly basis.....and not the likes Darrall Imhoff. Darrall Imhoff? Am I being trolled now?

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 03:39 AM
How am I supposed to respond to this? Stop with your attitude towards me because it's getting ridiculous and i'm not sure where it's coming from. Why don't you tell me where it's coming from so we can address the real problem here.

Lol I've just been watching this for a little while, but now I'm gonna chime in.

If you think that Wilt could only dominate against smaller players, then explain why he/Nate was able to hold KAJ to a bad series when Hakeem/Sampson (both guys who played in the 80s) weren't able to? Bear in mind that KAJ is his rookie year, won both rookie of the year and the MVP about two years later down in his career it's not like he was some type of scrub. Here's a quote to help illustrate this point: (it's from Wikipedia but take it for whatever it's worth).


Milwaukee Bucks
The Harlem Globetrotters offered Alcindor $1 million to play for them, but he declined, and was picked first in the 1969 NBA Draft by the Milwaukee Bucks (who were in only their second season of existence.) The Bucks won a coin-toss with the Phoenix Suns for first pick. He was also chosen first overall in the 1969 American Basketball Association draft by the New York Nets.[12] The Nets believed that they had the upper hand in securing Alcindor's services because he was from New York; however, when Alcindor told both the Bucks and the Nets that he would accept one offer only from each team, the Nets bid too low.

Lew Alcindor's entry into the NBA was timely, as center Bill Russell had just left the Boston Celtics, and Wilt Chamberlain, though still effective, was 33 years old. Alcindor's presence enabled the 196970 Bucks to claim second place in the NBA's Eastern Division with a 5626 record (up from 2755 the previous year); and he was an instant star, ranking second in the league in scoring (28.8 ppg) and third in rebounding (14.5 rpg), for which he was awarded the title of NBA Rookie of the Year.[6]

The next season, the Bucks acquired All-Star guard Oscar Robertson, known to sports fans as "the Big 'O'." Milwaukee went on to record the best record in the league with 66 victories in the 197071 NBA season, including a then-record 20 straight wins. Alcindor was awarded his first of six NBA Most Valuable Player Awards, along with his first scoring title (31.7 ppg).[6] In the playoffs, the Bucks went 122 (including a four-game sweep of the Baltimore Bullets in the NBA Finals), won the championship, and Alcindor was named Finals MVP. On May 1, 1971, the day after the Bucks won the NBA championship, he adopted the Muslim name Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, its Arabic translation roughly "generous/noble (Kareem), servant of (Abdul) the mighty/stern one (Jabbar) [i.e., of God]."

Not many guys are in their prime at 33 years of age, no?

The same KAJ who struggled against Nate Thurmond (a guy who Wilt dominated in previous years) could compare to any of Hakeem, Shaq, Drob, in terms of on court worth. So how can you logically come to the conclusion that Wilt "only" dominated against 6'7 white guys?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:39 AM
what the ****? I am not even talking about Shaq.

Then why are you here?

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:41 AM
Did you mention the fact that players were measured differently aka more accurately than they are in the Stern promotion era?

Like Hakeem is 6"10 but is listed as a 7 ft'er, you didnt get that in the old days. Even Charles Barkley has been listed at several different heights. On average you should prolly tack on .5 of an inch onto those players.

Not to mention that people actually played like bruisers in those days. Wilt recalls in his book that Dave DeBusschere elbowed him in the face so hard that he had to wear a facemask temporarily.

There are pictures of Wilt with that mask.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0301/pg2_g_chamberlain_b1_576.jpg

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:43 AM
Lol I've just been watching this for a little while, but now I'm gonna chime in.

If you think that Wilt could only dominate against smaller players, then explain why he/Nate was able to hold KAJ to a bad series when Hakeem/Sampson (both guys who played in the 80s) weren't able to? Bear in mind that KAJ is his rookie year, won both rookie of the year and the MVP about two years later down in his career it's not like he was some type of scrub. Here's a quote to help illustrate this point: (it's from Wikipedia but take it for whatever it's worth).



Not many guys are in their prime at 33 years of age, no?

The same KAJ who struggled against Nate Thurmond (a guy who Wilt dominated in previous years) could compare to any of Hakeem, Shaq, Drob, in terms of on court worth. So how can you logically come to the conclusion that Wilt "only" dominated against 6'7 white guys?

You have me confused with the other poster. I never said anything about 6'7 white guys so please cut the nonsense.

I'm talking about Wilts competition when he broke/set all the records and i'm saying that if there were better competition at the time (like a PRIME SHAQ) ..then PRIME SHAQ would have gone down in history as the greatest center of all time.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:43 AM
You may has missed the point of this thread. I'm talking about the records and the greatness of Wilt being called into question if he went against players such as Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem on a nightly basis.....and not the likes Darrall Imhoff. Darrall Imhoff? Am I being trolled now?

That 100 point game happened once, dude. It wasn't nightly.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:46 AM
That 100 point game happened once, dude. It wasn't nightly.

He dominated the "competition" on a nightly basis. Who was he playing against when he set all these records? Boo boo the fool Williams?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:47 AM
Not to mention that people actually played like bruisers in those days. Wilt recalls in his book that Dave DeBusschere elbowed him in the face so hard that he had to wear a facemask temporarily.

There are pictures of Wilt with that mask.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0301/pg2_g_chamberlain_b1_576.jpg

Wilt, Dave....who wins and dominates vs prime Shaq?

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 03:48 AM
You have me confused with the other poster. I never said anything about 6'7 white guys so please cut the nonsense.

Even still, you're talking about his competition so I assumed that it was what you were pushing. Didn't you say you could go to the park and beat up on little children and it would be the same? (I could be wrong. But if I am wrong, then tell me what's your problem with Wilts competition) Seems like an apt analogy to me.


I'm talking about Wilts competition when he broke/set all the records and i'm saying that if there were better competition at the time (like a PRIME SHAQ) ..then PRIME SHAQ would have gone down in history as the greatest center of all time.

I don't think no one in here has disputed that he wouldn't. However, you're only looking at raw tallies. Pace accounted for, Shaq had better numbers than Wilt.

OaklandsFinest
03-24-2013, 03:50 AM
LMFAO sounds like you didnt watch much basketball back in your youth. Apparently you missed when 6"7 Dennis Rodman played Shaq well enough to not get destroyed. And Wilt was a stronger, 7ft version of him. Imagine if Wilt had the advantages of todays nutrition/workout regimen. Damn he'd be even stronger than he already was.

Exactly!! Wilt was incredibly strong! Arnold, Wilt and Andre the Giant used to lift together in the 70's and Arnold said in an interview with Bill Simmons that Wilt was the strongest guy he'd ever worked out with just had long muscular structure. Wilt is the GOAT period at the Center position.

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 03:50 AM
He dominated the "competition" on a nightly basis. Who was he playing against when he set all these records? Boo boo the fool Williams?

Problem with a post like this is, it makes it seem as if YOU KNOW who he set these records against, but then you already admitted to not knowing about the 60s era of basketball.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:51 AM
You may has missed the point of this thread. I'm talking about the records and the greatness of Wilt being called into question if he went against players such as Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem on a nightly basis.....and not the likes Darrall Imhoff. Darrall Imhoff? Am I being trolled now?
Yea because the likes of Jason Collins and Greg Ostertag are so much better. I didn't miss the point, you want to diminish Wilt for the competition he played but Im showing you facts of how he performed vs a caliber of competition that even the great KAJ was most stifled by. Feel free to quantify how often Wilt faced whoever those guys are that you disapprove of, but is it really less competitive when your facing the likes of Bill Russel like 10-12 times a year and then again in the playoffs? The only thing I would say is that the early 60's werent as talented as the mid-late 60's when the league stopped being so racist but that also coincided with some of the best ball Wilt ever played.

Overall, anyone who thinks he played 6"7 white stiffs at center doesn't know much about NBA history. Facts are, Wilt dominated against the likes of Russel/Thurmond, which is more than you can say for KAJ. So why arent you calling into question KAJ's greatness? Some of his career overlapped with Chamberlains, and given the vast disparity in talent at that stage in their careers, its pretty amazing what Wilt was able to do.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:52 AM
Even still, you're talking about his competition so I assumed that it was what you were pushing. Didn't you say you could go to the park and beat up on little children and it would be the same? (I could be wrong. But if I am wrong, then tell me what's your problem with Wilts competition) Seems like an apt analogy to me..

Wilts (game to game) competition during his record breaking seasons was too small/weak and it padded his stats. Did you think I was pushing some racist agenda here? Wow.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 03:52 AM
He dominated the "competition" on a nightly basis. Who was he playing against when he set all these records? Boo boo the fool Williams?


Let me post the names from the Yahoo post since you obviously missed.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"

Obviously I can't give you the stats on a nightly basis since Wilt broke a LOT of records on a LOT of nights.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:54 AM
Problem with a post like this is, it makes it seem as if YOU KNOW who he set these records against, but then you already admitted to not knowing about the 60s era of basketball.

Who did he set most of his records against? Andre the giant? Arnold? If so, then I take my hat off to him because they were some powerful men at the time ....so fighting off the giant while getting those rebounds would truly be a sight to behold.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 03:55 AM
Not to mention that people actually played like bruisers in those days. Wilt recalls in his book that Dave DeBusschere elbowed him in the face so hard that he had to wear a facemask temporarily.

There are pictures of Wilt with that mask.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0301/pg2_g_chamberlain_b1_576.jpg

When Wilt died, I heard some rumors that the punch he took from Lovellette contributed to his heart disease. Something about his teeth getting infected and of course now we know there is some correlation between gum disease and heart problems.

How sad is that? The punch wasn't even a foul, I can totally understand why Wilt contemplated retirement after his rookie year.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:56 AM
Let me post the names from the Yahoo post since you obviously missed.



Obviously I can't give you the stats on a nightly basis since Wilt broke a LOT of records on a LOT of nights.


Then obviously you've missed the point of this thread all together. Thanks for the yahoo names though but i'd like to know who he went up against (who was guarding him) while shattering records.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by Cromedome

On a nightly basis? Cool. Which 1 of these hall of famers did he score 100 points against?


Aren't you a Knicks fan? You of all people should know it was Darell Imhoff who was a 6-10 player.

I still can't get over this post. Are we done here?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:00 AM
Wilts (game to game) competition during his record breaking seasons was too small/weak and it padded his stats. Did you think I was pushing some racist agenda here? Wow.

Racist? Your comparing you playing with children to Wilt playing against guys that even KAJ struggled against. This despite KAJ being closer to his prime than they were. Where did you get that he was calling you racist? All I got was that he was exposing a significant flaw in your comparison. The flaw of excessive exaggeration. And we have both pointed out what we think of your analysis. When you admit to not being privy of even simple facts of that era, what makes you think we would buy you knowing intimate/quantifiable details?

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:01 AM
Wilts (game to game) competition during his record breaking seasons was too small/weak and it padded his stats. Did you think I was pushing some racist agenda here? Wow.

Was every player that he played great against a scrub? If you disgree, then I don't see how we have a problem. The league's talent was more concentrated back then so that means you had less of going up against the Kwame Browns of the world, to facing the Marcs, Dwights, Chandlers of the world. Also what racist agenda? Look at the Nba, it's filled with black people, that's kind of not a coincidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin_theory

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:03 AM
Then obviously you've missed the point of this thread all together. Thanks for the yahoo names though but i'd like to know who he went up against (who was guarding him) while shattering records.

So you're saying you don't know?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:04 AM
Then obviously you've missed the point of this thread all together. Thanks for the yahoo names though but i'd like to know who he went up against (who was guarding him) while shattering records.

I could be wrong but I believe he broke the single game rebounding record against that Russ guy. Hes not Vitaly Potenko but he was pretty good.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 04:05 AM
Then obviously you've missed the point of this thread all together. Thanks for the yahoo names though but i'd like to know who he went up against (who was guarding him) while shattering records.

I missed a lot of these last few pages but that was not what you were arguing at first. You were arguing that shaq would destroy wilt because of his weak frame. It's in the first and second posts of yours. You weren't mentioning anything about his records etc.

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:06 AM
I missed a lot of these last few pages but that was not what you were arguing at first. You were arguing that shaq would destroy wilt because of his small frame. It's in the first and second posts of yours. You weren't mentioning anything about his records etc.

New argument.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 04:07 AM
New argument.

ahh i see, ill have to go back and read a couple pages then.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:08 AM
Racist? Your comparing you playing with children to Wilt playing against guys that even KAJ struggled against. This despite KAJ being closer to his prime than they were. Where did you get that he was calling you racist? All I got was that he was exposing a significant flaw in your comparison. The flaw of excessive exaggeration. And we have both pointed out what we think of your analysis. When you admit to not being privy of even simple facts of that era, what makes you think we would buy you knowing intimate/quantifiable details?

So all in all.. when I say a prime Shaq vs the Wilt who broke all the records would be the considered the greatest of all time, you disagree?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Cromedome

On a nightly basis? Cool. Which 1 of these hall of famers did he score 100 points against?



I still can't get over this post. Are we done here?
Who did Shaq get his career high on? Thats essentially what it was for Wilt's era. Thats why I mention playoff series. To get a sense of the matchup battles when the game is at its best. Facts are, Wilt dominated a guy KAJ referred to as the best defender he ever faced. So why does KAJ (a player you respect because he played in the 80's) have more respect for those guys than you do?

Think about what your asking from us, that we ignore the leagues all-time leading scorer who played against these guys, for the sake of an opinion from someone who has already admitted his ignorance.

Yes we get that Wilt wouldn't have the same tallies he used to, but thats not all you've argued here.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:10 AM
I missed a lot of these last few pages but that was not what you were arguing at first. You were arguing that shaq would destroy wilt because of his weak frame. It's in the first and second posts of yours. You weren't mentioning anything about his records etc.

I'm talking about prime Shaq vs Wilt. Who wins and who would go down in history during the 50/60's as the greatest center of all time if this took place? All of a sudden we're talking about Kareem Abdul Jabbar and some no name scrub from the 60's Knicks.

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:11 AM
Also as for Shaq being stopped by Wilt. Nobody can stop a prime Shaq on single coverage, in fact it's damn near impossible to stop him even if you double. But the difference is instead of him going off for 50 on 60% every game (on single coverage by every other player) he'd go for 30 on 55% (numbers he only sees against guys like Rodman, Big Ben, (Wilt in this assumption) and double teams). (Don't know the numbers, but I'm trying to bring some coherency to this argument). That seems like a fair trade-off to me.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:12 AM
So all in all.. when I say a prime Shaq vs the Wilt who broke all the records would be the considered the greatest of all time, you disagree?

Nope, I only disagree with the other unsubstantiated opinions. Like Wilt getting eaten alive.

I also cant help but laugh at you trying to depict Wilt as some frail weakling by mentioning how skinny he was, even tho we've already seen Shaq defended by inferior physical specimens.

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:12 AM
ahh i see, ill have to go back and read a couple pages then.

It's kind of mashed up in there though.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:13 AM
Who did he set most of his records against? Andre the giant? Arnold? If so, then I take my hat off to him because they were some powerful men at the time ....so fighting off the giant while getting those rebounds would truly be a sight to behold.

Wilt's 55 rebound game was against Bill Russell who had 54 in the same one.


Wilt's 78 point game was against 61 Lakers.

this is that roster.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1962.html

Wilt's 73 and 62 back to back games were against 62 Chicago Zephyrs and Celtics

their rosters are

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHZ/1963.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1963.html


Wilt's 20-20-20 Triple Double game was against 1968 Pistons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1968.html


Wilt's 58 as a rookie was against 1960 Pistons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1960.html


The 21 assists game was against 68 Pistons.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:13 AM
Who did Shaq get his career high on? Thats essentially what it was for Wilt's era. Thats why I mention playoff series. To get a sense of the matchup battles when the game is at its best. Facts are, Wilt dominated a guy KAJ referred to as the best defender he ever faced. So why does KAJ (a player you respect because he played in the 80's) have more respect for those guys than you do?

Think about what your asking from us, that we ignore the leagues all-time leading scorer who played against these guys, for the sake of an opinion from someone who has already admitted his ignorance.

Yes we get that Wilt wouldn't have the same tallies he used to, but thats not all you've argued here.

Shaq got his career high against the Clippers...and at that time...the Clippers were a joke so I'd expect that out of him. Who did Wilt get his career high against? Was it the same joke of a deal? Wilt averaged all these points, rebounds and assists against the likes of who?

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:14 AM
Most of these Wilt stories are borderline boarderline Chuck Norris "facts".

Separating fact from fiction, can you really say that if Wilt had "real" comepetition that his superman numbers would stay the same?


ahh i see, ill have to go back and read a couple pages then.

Around here I believe.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:14 AM
I missed a lot of these last few pages but that was not what you were arguing at first. You were arguing that shaq would destroy wilt because of his weak frame. It's in the first and second posts of yours. You weren't mentioning anything about his records etc.
Im guessing this was why hidalgo assumed he was trolling.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:15 AM
Shaq got his career high against the Clippers...and at that time...the Clippers were a joke so I'd expect that out of him. Who did Wilt get his career high against? Was it the same joke of a deal? Wilt averaged all these points, rebounds and assists against the likes of who?

Thats literally what I just said, Wilt's 100 was vs his eras Clippers. Which sadly happened to be the Knicks.

Pnoyballer88
03-24-2013, 04:16 AM
My point (from the start) has been Wilt played against weak competition during his prime.

That would depend on which season of Wilt's career would you consider his prime?

In my estimation a players prime should be the age 27, 28. The same age range Shaq won a ring btw. So in his prime Wilt was facing off against Centers like Russell, Thurmond, Zelmo Beaty, Walt Bellamy, and guy you should know a great deal about Willis Reed. I don't know if you consider these guys weak competition. I don't, but thats my opinion.

Also some points to think about in the Shaq/Wilt matchup.

* Can Wilt guard Shaq? No
* Can Shaq gaurd Wilt? No
Bottom line. their offense against each other will cancel each other out. Although Wilt is a better defender than Shaq. That much is clear.

*A big deal was made in your argument about Wilt being skinny. But anyone who has played Basketball knows its an endurance game more than a strength game. Wilt led the league in minutes played from his Rookie Year till 1969. When he was 33 years old. Obviously his stamina has never been in question.

*Shaq has never led the league in minutes played. Biggest knock against his career was that he was always out of shape.

Bottom line. Shaq maybe stronger. But can he keep up that strength through 48 minutes. Against a guy who not only can score against him. But in his prime played 47 minutes a game?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:17 AM
55 rebounds against a team where they had (1) 6'9 player, 1 (6'8) player , (1) 6'7 player, (6'6) player...etc..

Like I said, the 4'2 kids at the park would bow down to my greatness. Good post.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:19 AM
Im guessing this was why hidalgo assumed he was trolling.

I assumed he said that because you were some die hard Wilt fan and threads like this is what you live for. I could be wrong.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:20 AM
When Wilt died, I heard some rumors that the punch he took from Lovellette contributed to his heart disease. Something about his teeth getting infected and of course now we know there is some correlation between gum disease and heart problems.

How sad is that? The punch wasn't even a foul, I can totally understand why Wilt contemplated retirement after his rookie year.

He did contemplate retirement but not for those reasons. In his autobiography, he said he fell in love with Italy during his offseason Harlem Globetrotters' "season" and didn't want to come back until the Warriors' coach at the time flew over to bring him back.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 04:25 AM
I'm talking about prime Shaq vs Wilt. Who wins and who would go down in history during the 50/60's as the greatest center of all time if this took place? All of a sudden we're talking about Kareem Abdul Jabbar and some no name scrub from the 60's Knicks.

Alright I found what I had missed (thanks ballhog). The thing is that some of us (I think most-all) agree that prime shaq would beat prime wilt and have said it multiple times.

The problem that we have with what you are saying is your reasoning and claims about wilt. Calling him weak and making him out to seem weak and skinny. Not believing the stories about his strength/athletecism is your choice but there is a lot of evidence in favor of it him being an amazing athlete. You also go on about how weak the era is and paint it to be worse than it really is (although that was partially ocean). Pointing out things like he got his record against a bad player doesn't mean much because won't most people have their best games against the bad competition? (kobe 81 vs toronto) I don't think many people, if any at all are claiming prime wilt is better than prime shaq. Just that he wouldn't necessarily be eaten alive by shaq and that some of your reasoning is a bit flawed.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:26 AM
That would depend on which season of Wilt's career would you consider his prime?

In my estimation a players prime should be the age 27, 28. The same age range Shaq won a ring btw. So in his prime Wilt was facing off against Centers like Russell, Thurmond, Zelmo Beaty, Walt Bellamy, and guy you should know a great deal about Willis Reed. I don't know if you consider these guys weak competition. I don't, but thats my opinion.

Also some points to think about in the Shaq/Wilt matchup.

* Can Wilt guard Shaq? No
* Can Shaq gaurd Wilt? No
Bottom line. their offense against each other will cancel each other out. Although Wilt is a better defender than Shaq. That much is clear.

*A big deal was made in your argument about Wilt being skinny. But anyone who has played Basketball knows its an endurance game more than a strength game. Wilt led the league in minutes played from his Rookie Year till 1969. When he was 33 years old. Obviously his stamina has never been in question.

*Shaq has never led the league in minutes played. Biggest knock against his career was that he was always out of shape.

Bottom line. Shaq maybe stronger. But can he keep up that strength through 48 minutes. Against a guy who not only can score against him. But in his prime played 47 minutes a game?

Phil Jackson once asked Shaq what he thought was Wilt's greatest individual accomplishment, when he told him it was that he averaged 48.5MPG, Shaq took on the challenge and was gassed out by G3 IIRC.

Wilt's stamina is truly legendary, I forget who it was but they basically called him the opposite of Kareem. Do you think Kareem had more stamina than Shaq?

Since we're talking about Phil Jackson. The only team Ive ever seen him say would give his Bulls a run for their money was a Wilt led team. Hes on record for saying he thinks the Bulls would mop the floor with any other team of the 80's, but Wilt's squad? I wonder why he has so much respect for them.........

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:26 AM
That would depend on which season of Wilt's career would you consider his prime?

I'm talking about his records. Do you think he'd come close to any of those numbers playing against Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Smits, Mutombo or Mourning as well as skilled forwards? Wilt played against weak players in a weak era point blank period.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:29 AM
55 rebounds against a team where they had (1) 6'9 player, 1 (6'8) player , (1) 6'7 player, (6'6) player...etc..

Like I said, the 4'2 kids at the park would bow down to my greatness. Good post.

Without a doubt, you are a ****ing troll. That is one of the greatest teams in NBA history you are talking about.

6-9 player you mentioned...Bill Russell.

6-8 guy... Gene Conley ( Bench player averagining 8 rpg )

6-7 guy.... Tommy Heinsohn ( definitely not a schmuck )

6-6 guy .... Tommy Sanders who would become a double double machine.


not to mention players like KC Jones, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones were also on the team.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:29 AM
Alright I found what I had missed (thanks ballhog). The thing is that some of us (I think most-all) agree that prime shaq would beat prime wilt and have said it multiple times.

The problem that we have with what you are saying is your reasoning and claims about wilt. Calling him weak and making him out to seem weak and skinny. Not believing the stories about his strength/athletecism is your choice but there is a lot of evidence in favor of it him being an amazing athlete. You also go on about how weak the era is and paint it to be worse than it really is (although that was partially ocean). Pointing out things like he got his record against a bad player doesn't mean much because won't most people have their best games against the bad competition? (kobe 81 vs toronto) I don't think many people, if any at all are claiming prime wilt is better than prime shaq. Just that he wouldn't necessarily be eaten alive by shaq and that some of your reasoning is a bit flawed.


I'm calling Wilt weak and skinny because against a prime Shaq...he would be considered weak and skinny. If bigger centers such as Ewing and Robinson had a problem matching up against Shaq, what chance would a skinny/weak center such as Wilt have?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:30 AM
He did contemplate retirement but not for those reasons. In his autobiography, he said he fell in love with Italy during his offseason Harlem Globetrotters' "season" and didn't want to come back until the Warriors' coach at the time flew over to bring him back.

That played a role but Ill link you the article where Wilt bashes the Bush league NBA and how he threatened retirement. Its not the only source either, several books mention it.

b@llhog24
03-24-2013, 04:31 AM
I'm talking about his records. Do you think he'd come close to any of those numbers playing against Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Smits, Mutombo or Mourning as well as skilled forwards? Wilt played against weak players in a weak era point blank period.

Could be that, or the fact that there are less possessions in today's league in comparison to 1960.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:31 AM
Without a doubt, you are a ****ing troll. That is one of the greatest teams in NBA history you are talking about.

6-9 player you mentioned...Bill Russell.

6-8 guy... Gene Conley ( Bench player averagining 8 rpg )

6-7 guy.... Tommy Heinsohn ( definitely not a schmuck )

6-6 guy .... Tommy Sanders who would become a double double machine.


not to mention players like KC Jones, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones were also on the team.

I'm not a troll and watch your mouth dude.

Wilt played against smaller players and as someone who plays the game ...height/skill usually wins everytime..

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:32 AM
I assumed he said that because you were some die hard Wilt fan and threads like this is what you live for. I could be wrong.

Well obviously, you cant troll someone if they dont care for the subject matter, it still doesn't change the fact that he thought you were trolling.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:34 AM
I'm not a troll and watch your mouth dude.

Wilt played against smaller players and as someone who plays the game ...height/skill usually wins everytime..

Skill does. Height doesn't. If height did, Manute Bol and Gheorghe Muresan would be great scorers and Sim Bhullar the 7-5 guy on New Mexico State would be dominating the tourney.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:34 AM
I'm calling Wilt weak and skinny because against a prime Shaq...he would be considered weak and skinny.
If it holds true for Wilt, then it would hold true for everyone.



If bigger centers such as Ewing and Robinson had a problem matching up against Shaq, what chance would a skinny/weak center such as Wilt have?
Except that you havent proven that they were bigger or stronger and we have endless testimonials that support Wilt being the strongest to ever play this game. But feel free to defend your stance now.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:35 AM
Well yea, you cant troll someone if they dont care for the subject matter, it still doesn't change the fact that he thought you were trolling.

Well, I thought he knew you were a die hard Wilt fan and you get posts like this often questioning Wilt's "greatness"....that's all.

Either way, that has nothing to do with the post at hand so lets not talk about delusional posters.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:35 AM
That played a role but Ill link you the article where Wilt bashes the Bush league NBA and how he threatened retirement. Its not the only source either, several books mention it.

oh that. Wilt said in his autobiography that he was misquoted and the media just ran with the story.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:36 AM
Skill does. Height doesn't. If height did, Manute Bol and Gheorghe Muresan would be great scorers and Sim Bhullar the 7-5 guy on New Mexico State would be dominating the tourney.

Should I have put height + skill to make things easier for you?

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:36 AM
Skill does. Height doesn't. If height did, Manute Bol and Gheorghe Muresan would be great scorers and Sim Bhullar the 7-5 guy on New Mexico State would be dominating the tourney.
Im pretty sure there was a study that found the best rebounders are actually guys who are in that 6"7 6"10 range. So either way, hes diminishing rebounding all wrong.

mngopher35
03-24-2013, 04:36 AM
I'm calling Wilt weak and skinny because against a prime Shaq...he would be considered weak and skinny. If bigger centers such as Ewing and Robinson had a problem matching up against Shaq, what chance would a skinny/weak center such as Wilt have?

But you have no evidence that he is a weak center, your just ignoring all of the evidence that has been provided here. It's your choice to ignore it, but don't be surprised that no one takes your opinion seriousl (which you admitted to not knowing much about the era) when it goes against everything that has been said about wilt. 7'1 275 and that is without the extra boost players today get. Also there has been evidence suggesting smaller players than wilt can hold their own vs shaq, so why couldn't a bigger player like wilt. No one is saying he would stop shaq, that's basically an impossible feat in his prime. Shaq wouldn't be able to deal with wilt that easily either though.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:37 AM
oh that. Wilt said in his autobiography that he was misquoted and the media just ran with the story.
I didn't know that. Which book?

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:38 AM
If it holds true for Wilt, then it would hold true for everyone.



Except that you havent proven that they were bigger or stronger and we have endless testimonials that support Wilt being the strongest to ever play this game. But feel free to defend your stance now.

Are you trying to tell me that Wilt is stronger than a prime Shaq because of what you read in books? Please let me know so we're not talking in circles anymore.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:38 AM
Im pretty sure there was a study that found the best rebounders are actually guys who are in that 6"7 6"10 range. So either way, hes diminishing rebounding all wrong.

Its a combination of speed, quickness and height which would make it that range.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:39 AM
But you have no evidence that he is a weak center, your just ignoring all of the evidence that has been provided here. It's your choice to ignore it, but don't be surprised that no one takes your opinion seriousl (which you admitted to not knowing much about the era) when it goes against everything that has been said about wilt. 7'1 275 and that is without the extra boost players today get. Also there has been evidence suggesting smaller players than wilt can hold their own vs shaq, so why couldn't a bigger player like wilt. No one is saying he would stop shaq, that's basically an impossible feat in his prime. Shaq wouldn't be able to deal with wilt that easily either though.

If you feel Wilt is stronger than Shaq...it's hard to take you or anyone having that conversation serious.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:39 AM
Are you trying to tell me that Wilt is stronger than a prime Shaq because of what you read in books? Please let me know so we're not talking in circles anymore.

Quotes from actual people.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:40 AM
I didn't know that. Which book?

It's his first one. Wilt: Just like any other 7 foot black millionaire who lives next door.

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Other-7-Foot-Black-Millionaire/dp/0025233602

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:43 AM
Should I have put height + skill to make things easier for you?

Well, no **** on that combination.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:43 AM
Wilt never saw anything like Shaq and Shaq would have dominated the 50/60's. I don't need a book to tell you that.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:43 AM
Well, no **** on that combination.

You'd think it was that easy but there you go talking about some 7'5 nobody on nobody state.


...or your boy from the 1960's Knicks, lol.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:45 AM
Are you trying to tell me that Wilt is stronger than a prime Shaq because of what you read in books? Please let me know so we're not talking in circles anymore.
Nope, Im saying I want YOU to prove that Wilt was weaker/smaller than the OTHER CENTERS YOU MENTIONED.

FFF this is WHAT YOU SAID:

If bigger centers such as Ewing and Robinson had a problem matching up against Shaq, what chance would a skinny/weak center such as Wilt have?


You all caught up now? Good.... prove THIS.

THEN we can get to Shaq.

Cromedome
03-24-2013, 04:48 AM
Nope, Im saying I want YOU to prove that Wilt was weaker/smaller than the OTHER CENTERS YOU MENTIONED.

FFF this is WHAT YOU SAID:

If bigger centers such as Ewing and Robinson had a problem matching up against Shaq, what chance would a skinny/weak center such as Wilt have?


You all caught up now? Good.... prove THIS.

THEN we can get to Shaq.

Prove it? I don't have 20/20 vision but even Steve Wonder could tell you Ewing and Robinson were bigger and blocked too many shots for some smaller/weaker center to do anything against them. Can I prove this 100% ? Clearly I can't because they never matched up together but let's be serious here.

Chronz
03-24-2013, 04:48 AM
It's his first one. Wilt: Just like any other 7 foot black millionaire who lives next door.

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Other-7-Foot-Black-Millionaire/dp/0025233602
That was one of the first, I recently picked it up at the Library. Ill check it out but I dont know about this one, from what Ive read, Wilt threatened to retire like 6 times. He couldn't have fallen in love every season.

asandhu23
03-24-2013, 04:48 AM
Wilt never saw anything like Shaq and Shaq would have dominated the 50/60's. I don't need a book to tell you that.

No, he wouldn't have. That was a full on fastbreak era. Fastbreaks back and forth.

Pnoyballer88
03-24-2013, 04:49 AM
I'm calling Wilt weak and skinny because against a prime Shaq...he would be considered weak and skinny. If bigger centers such as Ewing and Robinson had a problem matching up against Shaq, what chance would a skinny/weak center such as Wilt have?

Had a problem? Ewing, Olajuwon, and Robinson all averaged their usual numbers against Shaq.

Are basting your entire argument on what Shaq does on the offensive end? :laugh2: