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uptown0364
03-19-2013, 07:17 PM
Aside from Miami and Brooklyn, pretty much every team in the East has gotten worse than last year due to injuries or trades. And this is a conference that was pretty bad last year to begin with:

Indiana (Granger)
Knicks (Carmelo, Chandler, Felton, Amare)
Atlanta (loss of Joe Johnson)
Chicago (Rose, Taj Gibson, Rip Hamilton, Hinrich)
Boston (Rondo, Ray Allen)
Orlando (Dwightmare)
Philadelphia (Iggy, Bynum)

Even the #2 seed Pacers are 15-18 on the road, which goes to show you they are flawed big time. Can anyone find a year in which one conference was this bad in terms of injuries? I think if every team was 100% healthy it'd be much more competitive, but Miami must be loving this right now.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 07:22 PM
this has got to be the worst season I can remember for injuries to important players, honestly. On both sides of the conference spectrum. Its not like the west is that tough this year, relatively speaking when considering how awesome they were for a number of years recently.

Btw, as I like to always point out when people bring up the Heat playing in the weak east, they are 23-5 against the west, which tops any winning percentage any west team has against its own conference.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 07:24 PM
Aside from Miami and Brooklyn, pretty much every team in the East has gotten worse than last year due to injuries or trades. And this is a conference that was pretty bad last year to begin with:

Indiana (Granger)
Knicks (Carmelo, Chandler, Felton, Amare)
Atlanta (loss of Joe Johnson)
Chicago (Rose, Taj Gibson, Rip Hamilton, Hinrich)
Boston (Rondo, Ray Allen)
Orlando (Dwightmare)
Philadelphia (Iggy, Bynum)

Even the #2 seed Pacers are 15-18 on the road, which goes to show you they are flawed big time. Can anyone find a year in which one conference was this bad in terms of injuries? I think if every team was 100% healthy it'd be much more competitive, but Miami must be loving this right now.

Atlanta is better off without him.

The Celtics lost Allen partly due to Rondo, and they have been better without Rondo.

BigBlueCrew
03-19-2013, 07:24 PM
the loss of Joe Johnson is a problem for Atlanta???

ManRam
03-19-2013, 07:25 PM
It might be. I have no idea nor do I feel like going and actually looking into it. It was weak to start out with, but got completely decimated by injuries.


You can discredit Miami a bit for it, for sure, but you have to look at their schedule first. Miami had (last time I checked like 2 days ago) played the toughest schedule of any EC team even with the luxury of not having to play themselves. They had a schedule that had them playing a lot of WC teams early on. Less than two weeks ago they had played one fewer games against the West than against the East. Since their schedule was so front loaded with WC teams, obviously they're getting a lot of EC teams now, including 13 in a row now. During this streak they've beaten every current playoff team except Brooklyn, Denver, SAS and GS I believe. So they've kinda beaten everyone there is to beat. They're beating who they have to play :shrug: So be it.

uptown0364
03-19-2013, 07:26 PM
Yeah with Gasol, Howard, Kobe, Tony Parker, etc it's pretty crazy how injury prone the NBA is. BTW this thread wasn't meant to diminish the winning streak it's more of "path to the title" thread. It may be one of the easiest paths to the Finals in NBA history and they'll let the West beat up on each other.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 07:27 PM
Yeah with Gasol, Howard, Kobe, Tony Parker, etc it's pretty crazy how injury prone the NBA is. BTW this thread wasn't meant to diminish the winning streak it's more of "path to the title" thread. It may be one of the easiest paths to the Finals in NBA history and they'll let the West beat up on each other.

Love, Dirk, Rubio, Bogut, it just goes on. This season sucks as far as injuries go man. Kobe has missed 2 games haha, take him off the injury list please...

ManRam
03-19-2013, 07:29 PM
Love, Dirk, Rubio, Bogut, it just goes on. This season sucks as far as injuries go man. Kobe has missed 2 games haha, take him off the injury list please...

Remember when people got so carried away last year with blaming the injuries on the lockout...and thus being able to pile onto Stern again?

Well, if they didn't realize how wrong they were (statistically there were fewer injuries than normal) I'm sure this season is getting that into there head. It has indeed been brutal.

Bravo95
03-19-2013, 07:40 PM
Atlanta is better off without him.

the loss of Joe Johnson is a problem for Atlanta???
Perimeter D fell off without bigger bodies (Marvin & Joe) to stay in front of people. But better off in the long run.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
Perimeter D fell off without bigger bodies (Marvin & Joe) to stay in front of people. But better off in the long run.

That is what I was referring to man. And honestly, he was such a pansy come playoff time, he made no difference in the "path to the championship"...

Bravo95
03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
The post-Jordan East in the late 90s/early 00's was pretty bad, so don't know if I'd call this the worst ever.

Bravo95
03-19-2013, 07:47 PM
That is what I was referring to man. And honestly, he was such a pansy come playoff time, he made no difference in the "path to the championship"...
He had to go. It was time.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 07:47 PM
Aside from Miami and Brooklyn, pretty much every team in the East has gotten worse than last year due to injuries or trades. And this is a conference that was pretty bad last year to begin with:

Indiana (Granger)
Knicks (Carmelo, Chandler, Felton, Amare)
Atlanta (loss of Joe Johnson)
Chicago (Rose, Taj Gibson, Rip Hamilton, Hinrich)
Boston (Rondo, Ray Allen)
Orlando (Dwightmare)
Philadelphia (Iggy, Bynum)

Even the #2 seed Pacers are 15-18 on the road, which goes to show you they are flawed big time. Can anyone find a year in which one conference was this bad in terms of injuries? I think if every team was 100% healthy it'd be much more competitive, but Miami must be loving this right now.
Yup. Just another *ring for Lebron.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 07:47 PM
The post-Jordan East in the late 90s/early 00's was pretty bad, so don't know if I'd call this the worst ever.

even in Jordan's era, they constantly opened up round 1 playing a sub .500 team. The east has been bad a long, long time, outside the top dogs.

bucketss
03-19-2013, 07:52 PM
none of these trades or injuries would have stopped miami from coasting through the east, they destroyed the east their first year in 5 games max, last year due to injury to bosh it was a little more difficult.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 08:03 PM
Do you mean of the 2000 era?

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 08:04 PM
Yup. Just another *ring for Lebron.

by that rational, Kobe has 3 of those dude. Does that seem fair?

Bravo95
03-19-2013, 08:06 PM
even in Jordan's era, they constantly opened up round 1 playing a sub .500 team. The east has been bad a long, long time, outside the top dogs.
Good point.

We saw plenty of ugly matchups back then, but the rivalries and great marketing (even NBC) made it compelling.

uptown0364
03-19-2013, 08:25 PM
Good point.

We saw plenty of ugly matchups back then, but the rivalries and great marketing (even NBC) made it compelling.

#8 seeds don't generally make a conference tough. I'd say looking at the #2 seed or #3 seed winning percentage would be a better gauge because they are usually looked at as legit threats. During the 1996-1997 season for example, the #2 seed was 61-21 with a .744 winning %. The #2 seed this year has a .612 winning percentage. During that season the #6 seed had a .659 winning percentage.

LAKobeBryant
03-19-2013, 08:29 PM
west record got worst too this season.

uptown0364
03-19-2013, 08:36 PM
Also since I started the thread I went back and looked at winning %'s of #2 seeds since 1991. The only year that had a worse winning % of the 2nd best team in the East was 2002-2003, so you could argue the East was probably easier to get through that season. Every year in the 90's it wasn't even close though. The #2 seed was much better than this year's Pacers team in terms of winning percentage.

Shlumpledink
03-19-2013, 08:38 PM
The east is terrible this year. Especially with the injuries. With a healthy bynum that sixer team is a threat, now they're mediocre. I thought Indiana would be better than they are, and I thought the knicks would contend more, but they're dealing with injuries as well. This could have been clevelands year with a healthy varejao!

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 09:43 PM
Pacers are a whole point better than last year. Pacers got better as well.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:47 PM
The eastern conference has been terrible for quite some time now. There should be some sort of handicap based on the overall record of the teams that play each other in the east. A team that wins around the same amount of times in the east is not as good as won with similar wins in the west.

nickdymez
03-19-2013, 09:54 PM
by that rational, Kobe has 3 of those dude. Does that seem fair?

Even respected mods turn threads into Kobe v. Lebron... smh

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:56 PM
Even respected mods turn threads into Kobe v. Lebron... smh

What do you expect. The NBA forum on PSD is the biggest hot bed of Kobe hate I have ever seen.

hidalgo
03-19-2013, 10:02 PM
hard to say it's even close to the worst east ever when the cahmps are in the east. 1999-2003 were pretty rough, but still had some legit east teams

Riodagoat
03-19-2013, 10:32 PM
Jimmer about to troll in 5..4..3...

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-19-2013, 10:43 PM
Hell no. At least the 7th and 8th seed teams in the east are plus 500. You could not say that from 2000 to 2012.

The Heat are so much better than the rest of that conference because they are that good. They would have that same type of success if they were in the west. They would not have a 23 game win streak but their win loss record would not be too far off from what it is now.

MetroMan
03-19-2013, 10:45 PM
this has got to be the worst season I can remember for injuries to important players, honestly. On both sides of the conference spectrum. Its not like the west is that tough this year, relatively speaking when considering how awesome they were for a number of years recently.

Btw, as I like to always point out when people bring up the Heat playing in the weak east, they are 23-5 against the west, which tops any winning percentage any west team has against its own conference.

West 5th place Denver Nuggets would be 2nd in the East.

HouRealCoach
03-19-2013, 10:57 PM
this has got to be the worst season I can remember for injuries to important players, honestly. On both sides of the conference spectrum. Its not like the west is that tough this year, relatively speaking when considering how awesome they were for a number of years recently.

Btw, as I like to always point out when people bring up the Heat playing in the weak east, they are 23-5 against the west, which tops any winning percentage any west team has against its own conference.

I agree.. Love, Rondo, Rose, Bynum, Gasol, Amare, Granger have all missed time

Others like Lou Williams, Rubio, Iman, John Wall, Jason Richardson also in there

All kinds of injuries keeping stars out for weeks and months

It's ridiculous

Blink
03-19-2013, 11:05 PM
Injuries & Heat dominating have just controlled the NBA this season.

The East records are improving but as long as LeBron remains in the EC it almost doesnt matter.

My Pistons better be contender favorites next season...lol

Vino24Mamba
03-19-2013, 11:07 PM
Btw, as I like to always point out when people bring up the Heat playing in the weak east, they are 23-5 against the west, which tops any winning percentage any west team has against its own conference.

That is a misnomer. Inter-conference play is always analyzed incorrectly.

How many of those times have the West team come to play @ Miami on the 2nd night of a back-to-back when doing the "Florida-2-step" (which I might add was tougher when Dwight was in Orlando the yrs prior).

How many of those games for the West team against Miami come in the middle or right at the very end of a long 7-8 game East Coast road trip?


How many times does Miami have back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights when a team like the Lakers almost never get such a situation?


How many times in several stretches in a season do the Heat play 5 or 6 consecutive weak teams in a span of 2-2 1/2 wks, get into a groove and momentum, and then are on that energy surge where they beat that tough West team to continue their streak?


You don't understand that yes, at the end all 30 teams end up playing 82 games, but the level of competition, the back-to-back home games, when those key marquee match ups against those visiting West teams etc. all play a huge factor when you're basically the only powerhouse in such a below-mediocre conference.


I guarantee you things would be tougher both mentally and physically when you have to play the Spurs, Jazz, Lakers, Grizzlies and Mavericks all consecutive in a 2-2 1/2 wk span rather than building your groove and momentum against the likes of the Raps, Cats, Cavs, Wiz in consecutive games in that same time frame.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:23 PM
#8 seeds don't generally make a conference tough. I'd say looking at the #2 seed or #3 seed winning percentage would be a better gauge because they are usually looked at as legit threats. During the 1996-1997 season for example, the #2 seed was 61-21 with a .744 winning %. The #2 seed this year has a .612 winning percentage. During that season the #6 seed had a .659 winning percentage.

My point was, the east has been top heavy, and been putting in teams that have zip business being in a playoff series for 2 decades. The west, not so much. Should we discredit Jordan's Bulls after the fall of the Pistons?

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:25 PM
What do you expect. The NBA forum on PSD is the biggest hot bed of Kobe hate I have ever seen.

Kobe hate? Seriously? You don't think (rhetorical, I know) that LeBron has taken more **** than any athlete in the last 5 years until he finally won a title, and now the only critics are those who are clinging to something personal?

magic0320
03-19-2013, 11:25 PM
by that rational, Kobe has 3 of those dude. Does that seem fair?

but kobe won those with stacked west and came out fighting. lebron other hand is one of the worst conference and weakest in the history. he has no team to go against in the east.

so kobe's stacked west 3 rings >>>>>>> lebron's weakest in history 1ring and more (maybe)

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:26 PM
West 5th place Denver Nuggets would be 2nd in the East.

Compare it to the last 10 years. West is down.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:26 PM
That is a misnomer. Inter-conference play is always analyzed incorrectly.

How many of those times have the West team come to play @ Miami on the 2nd night of a back-to-back when doing the "Florida-2-step" (which I might add was tougher when Dwight was in Orlando the yrs prior).

How many of those games for the West team against Miami come in the middle or right at the very end of a long 7-8 game East Coast road trip?


How many times does Miami have back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights when a team like the Lakers almost never get such a situation?


How many times in several stretches in a season do the Heat play 5 or 6 consecutive weak teams in a span of 2-2 1/2 wks, get into a groove and momentum, and then are on that energy surge where they beat that tough West team to continue their streak?


You don't understand that yes, at the end all 30 teams end up playing 82 games, but the level of competition, the back-to-back home games, when those key marquee match ups against those visiting West teams etc. all play a huge factor when you're basically the only powerhouse in such a below-mediocre conference.


I guarantee you things would be tougher both mentally and physically when you have to play the Spurs, Jazz, Lakers, Grizzlies and Mavericks all consecutive in a 2-2 1/2 wk span rather than building your groove and momentum against the likes of the Raps, Cats, Cavs, Wiz in consecutive games in that same time frame.

I apologize for not putting complete context into the post, but the fact is, its not like the Heat are struggling against the so called superior conference. In fact, they are dominating it.

Vino24Mamba
03-19-2013, 11:34 PM
I apologize for not putting complete context into the post, but the fact is, its not like the Heat are struggling against the so called superior conference. In fact, they are dominating it.

Okay, I understand your viewpoint. But I just personally feel that the Heat are so hard to defend (due to the likes of dynamic players like Wade and LeBron) that West teams aren't given enough time in my opinion to really focus in and key on the Heat (they only see them 1-2 x a yr) and come up with a legit full detailed scouting report on how to defend them like a West team can have against another West team. The Heat are so superior against everyone else in the East, I'm sure their coaching staff has more than enough time to make their scouting reports against the West.

Image how much free time is freed up if you're the only dominant force in a conference. All you have to do on 90% of nights is just play hard if you're the Heat (since they're basically more talented and athletic than all of the teams out there in the East). If you're the Heat, you probably don't even need an actual scouting report on how to defend another East team.

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 11:35 PM
but kobe won those with stacked west and came out fighting. lebron other hand is one of the worst conference and weakest in the history. he has no team to go against in the east.

so kobe's stacked west 3 rings >>>>>>> lebron's weakest in history 1ring and more (maybe)

Really? People have to stop being so ridiculous. Any reason why it was the weakest in history (especially for Lebron who many have said had an all time great year last year)?

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:38 PM
but kobe won those with stacked west and came out fighting. lebron other hand is one of the worst conference and weakest in the history. he has no team to go against in the east.

so kobe's stacked west 3 rings >>>>>>> lebron's weakest in history 1ring and more (maybe)

You are missing my retort. I don't think a single championship for any player in history comes with an *, I was simply replying to a hardcore Kobe/Laker fan who does, as long as it doesn't involve his guy.

And no, your last sentence is crap. Pure crap. LeBron was the best player in the universe, and led a team to a ring, versus being a second banana. Not even in the same stratosphere.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:40 PM
Okay, I understand your viewpoint. But I just personally feel that the Heat are so hard to defend (due to the likes of dynamic players like Wade and LeBron) that West teams aren't given enough time in my opinion to really focus in and key on the Heat (they only see them 1-2 x a yr) and come up with a legit full detailed scouting report on how to defend them like a West team can have against another West team. The Heat are so superior against everyone else in the East, I'm sure their coaching staff has more than enough time to make their scouting reports against the West.

Image how much free time is freed up if you're the only dominant force in a conference. All you have to do on 90% of nights is just play hard if you're the Heat (since they're basically more talented and athletic than all of the teams out there in the East). If you're the Heat, you probably don't even need an actual scouting report on how to defend another East team.

as I have alluded to already, should we now go after Jordan for playing in the weaker conference, and beating the team that came out of the much tougher playoff ladder?

Fact is, at this point, people are reaching to discredit LeBron.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:41 PM
one thing I don't get about the so called "easier path", is that, the team with the so called easier path didn't have to play as well as the other team they meet, right? So why then, do we (you) discredit that team for beating the team that you feel was clearly playing better to get to them?

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 11:44 PM
as I have alluded to already, should we now go after Jordan for playing in the weaker conference, and beating the team that came out of the much tougher playoff ladder?

Fact is, at this point, people are reaching to discredit LeBron.

Yes, the heat are in the weaker conference, so were lot of teams that have won the title over the years and it never gets mentioned. I get that the east is weaker (especially this year with injuries), but people make it seem like the finals never happen and all the heat have to do is beat the east for a title.

Vino24Mamba
03-19-2013, 11:48 PM
as I have alluded to already, should we now go after Jordan for playing in the weaker conference, and beating the team that came out of the much tougher playoff ladder?

Fact is, at this point, people are reaching to discredit LeBron.

Not trying to discredit the Heat or LeBron. I'm just putting into perspective what it's like to be the only super powerhouse in the East and the truths and realities of that conference. That's all.

Supreme LA
03-19-2013, 11:52 PM
one thing I don't get about the so called "easier path", is that, the team with the so called easier path didn't have to play as well as the other team they meet, right? So why then, do we (you) discredit that team for beating the team that you feel was clearly playing better to get to them?

Because that team with the "easier path" clearly dictated everything when 3 of their superstars who used to play for teams in the East all decided to join together and obliterate the playing field obviously. I mean seriously, wasn't that their intent to begin with and wasn't that the reason most NBA fans and former NBA legends became upset at that time????

Don't compare them to MJ's Bulls please. There is a clear difference. I know you're trying get people to give them credit and I do. The Heat are playing great, but it isn't as if they all didn't have a hand in it behind the scenes.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2013, 11:55 PM
Because that team with the "easier path" clearly dictated everything when 3 of their superstars who used to play for teams in the East all decided to join together and obliterate the playing field obviously. I mean seriously, wasn't that their intent to begin with and wasn't that the reason most NBA fans and former NBA legends became upset at that time????

There is a clear difference. I know you're trying get people to give them credit and I due. The Heat are playing great, but it isn't as if they all didn't have a hand in it behind the scenes.

I don't agree. If the east winner loafs threw the playoffs, why should they be able to topple a team that has been on fire, beating better teams? Happens all the time. Explain why if you think it matters. If Miami needs to just show up to beat its east competition, shouldn't it in theory be blown out by the west team it meets in the finals that has been firing on all cylinders to make the finals?

And again, if we (you guys) are going to try and discredit LeBron's Heat, we need to do the same to Jordan's Bulls.

Supreme LA
03-20-2013, 12:00 AM
I don't agree. If the east winner loafs threw the playoffs, why should they be able to topple a team that has been on fire, beating better teams? Happens all the time. Explain why if you think it matters. If Miami needs to just show up to beat its east competition, shouldn't it in theory be blown out by the west team it meets in the finals that has been firing on all cylinders to make the finals?

And again, if we (you guys) are going to try and discredit LeBron's Heat, we need to do the same to Jordan's Bulls.

I see your point and I somewhat agree. The only message I was trying to really get across was that the East is as weak as it is today because the Big 3 signing in Miami. We basically went from 3 competitive teams in the East led by 3 superstars to 1 superteam in the East with 3 superstars dominating. I know the fact that D12 jumped ship and left to LA didn't help either but it's clear had he stayed with the Magic, they weren't getting by the Heat anyway.

I will always have a problem with the Heat team, meaning 3 superstars in their PRIME joining forces to lower the playing field and lessen their competition. Notice I used the word "prime".

Hawkeye15
03-20-2013, 12:07 AM
I see your point and I somewhat agree. The only message I was trying to really get across was that the East is as weak as it is today because the Big 3 signing in Miami. We basically went from 3 competitive teams in the East led by 3 superstars to 1 superteam in the East with 3 superstars dominating. I know the fact that D12 jumped ship and left to LA didn't help either but it's clear had he stayed with the Magic, they weren't getting by the Heat anyway.

Injuries killed this year, period. Both sides. It sucks.


I will always have a problem with the Heat team, meaning 3 superstars in their PRIME joining forces to lower the playing field and lessen their competition. Notice I used the word "prime".

But did you have a problem with Durant/Harden/Westbrook/Ibaka? How about Kobe/Shaq? Bird/McHale/Walton, Parish? Or Magic/Kareem/Worthy? How bout Duncan/Robinson/Parker/Ginoboli?

I just find it inconsistent that many feel that being drafted to a team of studs, versus taking a pay cut so you can play on a team with studs, is looked upon in such a 180 light. LeBron's team failed him. What choice did he have, if he truly wanted to win? Because he sure as **** wasn't gifted his studs from the front office like the players most call loya.

DallasTrilla23
03-20-2013, 12:40 AM
Atleast every team in the east has a winning record. That hasn't been the case in the past.

Guppyfighter
03-20-2013, 04:33 AM
I don't agree. If the east winner loafs threw the playoffs, why should they be able to topple a team that has been on fire, beating better teams? Happens all the time. Explain why if you think it matters. If Miami needs to just show up to beat its east competition, shouldn't it in theory be blown out by the west team it meets in the finals that has been firing on all cylinders to make the finals?

And again, if we (you guys) are going to try and discredit LeBron's Heat, we need to do the same to Jordan's Bulls.

Hawkeye, I am a big fan of Lebron and I enjoy watching the Heat play. But the easier path thing is true. If you take a bunch of random simulations, the elite team that had the worse teams was more likely to advance farther through.

The Heat don't have to go through a bunch of Grizzlies, Nuggets, Clippers, Thunders, or Spurs. They have two possible challengers, the Celtics and the Pacers.

The West is stacked up the top five and even the 6-8 are nothing to scoff at.

Do you think the Heat would have an easier time in the West or East playoffs and in a random simulation win more titles if they were placed in the East and West for the same amount of simulations?

rockbottom2010
03-20-2013, 06:29 AM
not really, every team is at least .500...the 85-86 bulls were 20 games under .500 and still made it to the playoffs...the 96-97 clippers were 10 games under .500 and still were a playoff team....and if im not mistaken....the knicks and celtics were both under .500 and still made to the playoffs in 03-04

todu82
03-20-2013, 08:04 AM
For injuries it is but in terms of the quality of the teams it isn't. There were seasons that teams below .500 were making the playoffs in the East.

He115ing
03-20-2013, 09:30 AM
Its just funny to me how a number 2-3 seed in the East is like a number 6-7 in the West.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-20-2013, 12:46 PM
West 5th place Denver Nuggets would be 2nd in the East.


but kobe won those with stacked west and came out fighting. lebron other hand is one of the worst conference and weakest in the history. he has no team to go against in the east.

so kobe's stacked west 3 rings >>>>>>> lebron's weakest in history 1ring and more (maybe)


Because that team with the "easier path" clearly dictated everything when 3 of their superstars who used to play for teams in the East all decided to join together and obliterate the playing field obviously. I mean seriously, wasn't that their intent to begin with and wasn't that the reason most NBA fans and former NBA legends became upset at that time????

Don't compare them to MJ's Bulls please. There is a clear difference. I know you're trying get people to give them credit and I do. The Heat are playing great, but it isn't as if they all didn't have a hand in it behind the scenes.

^