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Trythisgobbler
03-19-2013, 01:30 AM
Lebron James can easily be the greatest player if he continues this streak and do something that jordan or magic has ever done

Im_in_Mia_bish
03-19-2013, 01:32 AM
dude... let the man retire and complete his full resume.. stop it.

currently he isnt even better than kobe all time.
not even top 10 yet imo..

MetroMan
03-19-2013, 01:32 AM
Rearrange your words.

albertajaysfan
03-19-2013, 01:33 AM
Easily may be a poor choice of words. But it would definitely be an accomplishment for him to have. Wouldn't hurt his chances that is for sure.

MetroMan
03-19-2013, 01:34 AM
dude... let the man retire and complete his full resume.. stop it.

currently he isnt even better than kobe all time.
not even top 10 yet imo..

:clap:

Couldn't agree more

Sactown
03-19-2013, 01:37 AM
Eh it's really a team accomplishment, so I don't think it will greatly enhance his career,

amos1er
03-19-2013, 01:37 AM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...


"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'"


"But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

beliges
03-19-2013, 01:41 AM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...


"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'"


"But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

That is true but lebron is truly great and will end up one of the top 10 greatests. But if he's going to reach the status of the legendary players he needs to win like they did. He needs to win a few more before he gets to that elite level.

heyman321
03-19-2013, 01:43 AM
Lebron will end up top 2 all time when he retires at least, it's pretty much a guarantee. He may be the greatest, or 2nd greatest, but top 2 all time no doubt.

"Lololoolol, I didn't know you could tell the future, tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers".

Just stfu, everyone should appreciate what we are witnessing.

5ass
03-19-2013, 01:46 AM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...

Do you actually know who Magic and Jordan played with or do you talk out of your *** everytime?

amos1er
03-19-2013, 01:46 AM
That is true but lebron is truly great and will end up one of the top 10 greatests. But if he's going to reach the status of the legendary players he needs to win like they did. He needs to win a few more before he gets to that elite level.

I agree. He will need at least 2 more rings with this ultra stacked team to crack the top ten.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 01:48 AM
Do you actually know who Magic and Jordan played with or do you talk out of your *** everytime?

I don't recall Magic and Jordan having a top 5 player as a wing man and another top 15 player as a third option all still in their primes.

Magic had Kareem at 35 and he wasn't a top 5 player anymore.

Jordan did have Pippen in his prime for the first 3 peat, but he was never a top 5 player. Nor did he ever have a top 15 player in their prime as a third option.

Sactown
03-19-2013, 01:48 AM
Oh please, this team is a mockery to the purity of the sport of basketball. Lebron needs more help than any other superstar has gotten in NBA history just to win a ring. He couldn't even get the job done back in 2011 with by far the best team in the league and HCA in the finals. He put up the worst numbers in finals history for a franchise player. The east is a joke and Lebrons team is far above the level of competition in the eastern conference. I'm with Jason terry on this one...Not impressed in the least.
Lol the hypocrisy with Lakers fans never ****ing ends...

During the all time Lebron James debate:
LEBRON NEED THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH A TOP 5 PF IN THE GAME. His championship deserves an astricks because he couldn't do it alone (but I'LL IGNORE ****ING SHAQ WHEN HE CARRIED KOBE TO ****ING 3 RINGS, AND PAU GASOL WHO BAILED HIM OUT OF HIS ****** FINALS PERFORMANCE)

Other debate, Wade is the best SG:
Lakers fans: WHAT? Wade is 30 and on the decline, Kobe is way superior and Harden is better too! Wade is a decent player playing with the best in the game and is maybe top 30 overall... fringe top 10 in the League, clearly Kobe is still #1

So WHICH ****ING IS IT LAKERS FANS? IS WADE #2 AND BEST SG? OR FRINGE TOP 10... STOP SWITCHING BACK AND ****ING FORTH TO FURTHER YOUR BASELESS ARGUMENT!!

el hidalgo
03-19-2013, 01:49 AM
amos1er, i have a question for you. If you were lebron, would you stay in the city of cleveland and play with the roster that he had, or move to miami and win championships?

amos1er
03-19-2013, 01:49 AM
Lebron will end up top 2 all time when he retires at least, it's pretty much a guarantee. He may be the greatest, or 2nd greatest, but top 2 all time no doubt.

"Lololoolol, I didn't know you could tell the future, tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers".

Just stfu, everyone should appreciate what we are witnessing.

I love these homer guarantees I hear about Lebron all the time. Reminds me of another guarantee someone once made...I think it went a little something like this..."not one, not two, not three, not four...

LMAO

still1ballin
03-19-2013, 01:50 AM
Oh please, this team is a mockery to the purity of the sport of basketball. Lebron needs more help than any other superstar has gotten in NBA history just to win a ring. He couldn't even get the job done back in 2011 with by far the best team in the league and HCA in the finals. He put up the worst numbers in finals history for a franchise player. The east is a joke and Lebrons team is far above the level of competition in the eastern conference. I'm with Jason terry on this one...Not impressed in the least.
Lol the hypocrisy with Lakers fans never ****ing ends...

During the all time Lebron James debate:
LEBRON NEED THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH A TOP 5 PF IN THE GAME. His championship deserves an astricks because he couldn't do it alone (but I'LL IGNORE ****ING SHAQ WHEN HE CARRIED KOBE TO ****ING 3 RINGS, AND PAU GASOL WHO BAILED HIM OUT OF HIS ****** FINALS PERFORMANCE)

Other debate, Wade is the best SG:
Lakers fans: WHAT? Wade is 30 and on the decline, Kobe is way superior and Harden is better too! Wade is a decent player playing with the best in the game and is maybe top 30 overall... fringe top 10 in the League, clearly Kobe is still #1

So WHICH ****ING IS IT LAKERS FANS? IS WADE #2 AND BEST SG? OR FRINGE TOP 10... STOP SWITCHING BACK AND ****ING FORTH TO FURTHER YOUR BASELESS ARGUMENT!!


Sir, are you mad?

b@llhog24
03-19-2013, 01:50 AM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...

So effectively you agree with MJ that Bosh is as a good as Magic or Bird? Because that's what he's implying.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 01:51 AM
amos1er, i have a question for you. If you were lebron, would you stay in the city of cleveland and play with the roster that he had, or move to miami and win championships?

I have said on here repeatedly that I don't blame him for leaving Cleveland. He could have gone to NY or CHI and played on great teams, instead he elected to form a super team the likes of which have never been seen before. Pretty lame if you ask me.

ldawg
03-19-2013, 01:51 AM
What Heat is doing in this era is cool but Lebron still has ways to go. Like Pippen said Lebron can be and has the tools to surpass mj but as of right now its premature. Mj resume is way longer than 1 ring 1 final mvp, 1 reg season MVP and a usa bronze. If you are talking present he is the best player right now but it does not take away from the past great players. It still have players in the nba that Lebron has not pass in terms of success must less catch MJ. Forming a super team will always be lower than how MJ did it.He even retire to only come back and dominate. What had he not retire? is it possible he has more than 6 rings?

b@llhog24
03-19-2013, 01:51 AM
Lol the hypocrisy with Lakers fans never ****ing ends...

During the all time Lebron James debate:
LEBRON NEED THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH A TOP 5 PF IN THE GAME. His championship deserves an astricks because he couldn't do it alone (but I'LL IGNORE ****ING SHAQ WHEN HE CARRIED KOBE TO ****ING 3 RINGS, AND PAU GASOL WHO BAILED HIM OUT OF HIS ****** FINALS PERFORMANCE)

Other debate, Wade is the best SG:
Lakers fans: WHAT? Wade is 30 and on the decline, Kobe is way superior and Harden is better too! Wade is a decent player playing with the best in the game and is maybe top 30 overall... fringe top 10 in the League, clearly Kobe is still #1

So WHICH ****ING IS IT LAKERS FANS? IS WADE #2 AND BEST SG? OR FRINGE TOP 10... STOP SWITCHING BACK AND ****ING FORTH TO FURTHER YOUR BASELESS ARGUMENT!!

You're expecting too much tbh.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 01:52 AM
So effectively you agree with MJ that Bosh is as a good as Magic or Bird? Because that's what he's implying.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Wade...who was easily on par with a past prime Bird and Magic back in 2011.

b@llhog24
03-19-2013, 01:53 AM
Wade isn't top 5 and Bosh isn't top 15, so I'm not sure why people keep harping on that point.

Sactown
03-19-2013, 01:54 AM
I'm pretty sure he was referring to Wade...who was easily on par with a past prime Bird and Magic back in 2011.

Prime Wade perhaps, but the Wade who is 30 years old and gets his knee drained and needs surgery constantly no... Prime Pippen has put up better numbers than Wade over the last 2 years.

b@llhog24
03-19-2013, 01:56 AM
I'm pretty sure he was referring to Wade...who was easily on par with a past prime Bird and Magic back in 2011.


"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'"

He's saying he wouldn't call up Magic and Larry Bird. Last time I checked that's two players. If you think Bird/Magic is comparable to Wade, one of them is left to be compared to Bosh. Which in my opinion, makes this a stupid comparison. Although I like the little dig you left in there "past his prime"

heyman321
03-19-2013, 01:57 AM
I love these homer guarantees I hear about Lebron all the time. Reminds me of another guarantee someone once made...I think it went a little something like this..."not one, not two, not three, not four...

LMAO

I'm not a Heat or Lebron fan, I'm just appreciating greatness. Haven't seen this since young Shaq/Kobe, young duncan and Jordan.

Don't be mad just cause LA will get swept by OKC in the 1st round.

el hidalgo
03-19-2013, 01:58 AM
I have said on here repeatedly that I don't blame him for leaving Cleveland. He could have gone to NY or CHI and played on great teams, instead he elected to form a super team the likes of which have never been seen before. Pretty lame if you ask me.
a core of drose, lebron, and noah being coached by thibs wouldnt be a super team?

oak2455
03-19-2013, 02:03 AM
Sy Sterling

amos1er
03-19-2013, 02:04 AM
a core of drose, lebron, and noah being coached by thibs wouldnt be a super team?

Rose is barely top ten, and Noah is not even top 40. It wouldn't have been a superteam like the one he formed. No other elite superstar in NBA history has had this much help. There should be an * on all his accomplishments since forming this monstrosity known as the big 3 as far as I'm concerned.

ldawg
03-19-2013, 02:07 AM
Bosh is the best mid range shooting pf besides the older Kg. Wade is a top 3sg.

b@llhog24
03-19-2013, 02:09 AM
Rose is barely top ten, and Noah is not even top 40. It wouldn't have been a superteam like the one he formed. No other elite superstar in NBA history has had this much help. There should be an * on all his accomplishments since forming this monstrosity known as the big 3 as far as I'm concerned.

Depends on if you consider Kobe an elite superstar, take it for what it's worth:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?807220-Shaq-or-Wade-and-Bosh

Also Bird and Magic had more stacked rosters, I also noticed you neglected to respond to ManRams well thought out post on how the Bulls had a more stacked roster. But I'm sure you're gonna get to that eventually.

ldawg
03-19-2013, 02:12 AM
Personally i dont think this Miami team could have beating prime Kobe and Shaq. I dont Think that Laker team would have needed a player to stop Lebron but Miami most likely would have needed a center or two to slow Shaq. All i would say a different Era its Lebrons era to be the best player. If he stays healthy he will have ashot to pass Kobe he is on pace to do so but it will take more that 1chip

Sactown
03-19-2013, 02:12 AM
Rose is barely top ten, and Noah is not even top 40. It wouldn't have been a superteam like the one he formed. No other elite superstar in NBA history has had this much help. There should be an * on all his accomplishments since forming this monstrosity known as the big 3 as far as I'm concerned.

Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen.. Formed a big 3.. Ages 30-31-32.. All around the same age Wade was when Lebron came over.

Michael Jordan-Pippen, with a much better supporting casts than what the Heat have today..

Larry Bird-Kevin Mchale-Robert Parish

Magic Johnson-KAJ- James Worthy- All posted PERS over 20...

Isiah Thomas- Bill Lambier- Joe Dumars- Dennis Rodman...

Do all these teams need astrisks too?

Sactown
03-19-2013, 02:13 AM
Personally i dont think this Miami team could have beating prime Kobe and Shaq

Nobody was stopping Prime Shaq....

el hidalgo
03-19-2013, 02:17 AM
Rose is barely top ten, and Noah is not even top 40. It wouldn't have been a superteam like the one he formed. No other elite superstar in NBA history has had this much help. There should be an * on all his accomplishments since forming this monstrosity known as the big 3 as far as I'm concerned.

the man is going to be DPOY this year. forget about that though. he doesnt help your anti lebron agenda in this case. he is garbage.

Sactown
03-19-2013, 02:19 AM
the man is going to be DPOY this year. forget about that though. he doesnt help your anti lebron agenda in this case. he is garbage.

Eh I actually agree with him.. Noah is a little over hyped since the Center position is so weak... I think he's in that 30-40 range overall... But the bulls as a team are incredible as they're so great defensively from top to bottom.

5ass
03-19-2013, 02:20 AM
I don't recall Magic and Jordan having a top 5 player as a wing man and another top 15 player as a third option all still in their primes.

Magic had Kareem at 35 and he wasn't a top 5 player anymore.

Jordan did have Pippen in his prime for the first 3 peat, but he was never a top 5 player. Nor did he ever have a top 15 player in their prime as a third option.

Jordan had a more complete team. Bosh is not a good fit for the heat, aside from being a good jumpshooter. I think they would've been better had they gotten like a Tyson Chandler and Brandon Bass instead of Bosh and Anthony. Bosh is not playing like a top 15 player. Paul, Kobe, Howard, Wade, Lebron, Parker, Duncan, Durant, Westbrook, Irving, Harden, Carmelo, Marc Gasol, Rose, Stephen Curry. He's really arguably top 20-25. He is not clearly better than David Lee, Lamarcus aldridge, Blake Griffin, Deron Williams, Paul George and so many others. They all play bigger roles and have the same if not better impact on their team.

If Miami had the choice to choose between prime Rodman and Bosh, im 100% sure they would choose Rodman. They're a below average rebounding team. Also you're underrating Rodman.

You are using subjective ratings that you made up to justify why Lebron has more help when really if I want to compare their rosters its debatable. Every game Lebron is asked to do what Jordan rarely did. Jordan didnt have to guard positions 1-4, and he didnt have to rebound like lebron is asked to, or to get his teammates more involved.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 02:24 AM
The Lakers are lost because they lost Phil. Only Phil Jackson can create a championship calibur team with Kobe as the focal point. Something that drives me crazy about them talking about Kobe's 5 rings is they were coached by the greatest coach of all time, but apparently people don't see Phil as very much help in those rings.

Kobe isn't even a top 20 player on my list. He's an all time great (top 30 probably) but his lack of efficiency, and inability to carry his team without high marketable talent around him puts him about 5 notches below James. You put Kobe on those Cavs teams, and they don't make the playoffs. Maybe as an eight seed but that's it.

Kobe has never been what Lakers fans advertise him to be.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 02:25 AM
LBJ on the other hand is a monster. Could retire tomorrow and I'd still consider him one of the all time greats (ahead of Kobe).

amos1er
03-19-2013, 02:39 AM
LBJ on the other hand is a monster. Could retire tomorrow and I'd still consider him one of the all time greats (ahead of Kobe).

Oh...a new sig quote. Nice. :)

amos1er
03-19-2013, 02:41 AM
a core of drose, lebron, and noah being coached by thibs wouldnt be a super team?

No it wouldn't.

KniCks4LiFe
03-19-2013, 02:42 AM
*msg answered*

amos1er
03-19-2013, 02:43 AM
Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen.. Formed a big 3.. Ages 30-31-32.. All around the same age Wade was when Lebron came over.

Michael Jordan-Pippen, with a much better supporting casts than what the Heat have today..

Larry Bird-Kevin Mchale-Robert Parish

Magic Johnson-KAJ- James Worthy- All posted PERS over 20...

Isiah Thomas- Bill Lambier- Joe Dumars- Dennis Rodman...

Do all these teams need astrisks too?

How many of these all had big 3's as good as Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. All the teams you mentioned had key players over 30 or past their primes. This current Miami big 3 are all under 30 and still in their primes. None of the teams you mentioned had the number 1 player in the league, another top five player, and another top 15 player all on one team.

rex.reyesiii
03-19-2013, 02:49 AM
the man is going to be DPOY this year. forget about that though. he doesnt help your anti lebron agenda in this case. he is garbage.

Am just a lurker, but is he saying Wade is better than Rose (http://www.hothothoops.com/2012/9/26/3412320/dwyane-wade-comes-in-at-no-8-in-annual-espn-ranking)?

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 03:33 AM
I agree. He will need at least 2 more rings with this ultra stacked team to crack the top ten.

Maybe, but assuming he finishes off the year strong and wins mvp, and finals mvp (not saying he will just a scenario) I think a lot of people will start putting him in the top 10. It is pretty rare for a player to win 4 mvps (kareem, Jordan, Russell, Wilt all in the top 10), and he will still have a chance for more. His prime is already top 5 all time, now he just needs to rack up rings and accolades (longevity).

YouCan'tBeatLA
03-19-2013, 03:46 AM
LBJ on the other hand is a monster. Could retire tomorrow and I'd still consider him one of the all time greats (ahead of Kobe).

Dude, stop.

Kid Fabulous
03-19-2013, 04:30 AM
Who cares. This run is amazing. LBJ is a beast. Kobe is a beast. Jordan is a beast. Magic is a beast........ None of your top 10 list hold any water because no ones list will ever be good enough for another person. Championships are a team thing. If its the tell all, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

That being said, Ill be able to tell my grandchildren, I watched LeBron James and Michael Jordan lace them up and do things I've never seen before.

rockbottom2010
03-19-2013, 04:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygKLQ1ItVGY

ldawg
03-19-2013, 07:25 AM
At the end of the day as great as Lebron look he has as many rings as Dirk 1. This is the best Lebron has ever played and What if Heat dont win the title?

FraziersKnicks
03-19-2013, 07:33 AM
Eh it's really a team accomplishment, so I don't think it will greatly enhance his career,

So are rings but they seem to be the main measuring stick in judging a players greatness... Why is this any different?

FraziersKnicks
03-19-2013, 07:39 AM
I agree. He will need at least 2 more rings with this ultra stacked team to crack the top ten.

Funny how your boy Kobe is struggling to make the playoffs with an equally stacked team. A team that people predicted would challenge for an NBA title and stroll through the Western conference with the number 1 seed.

Never put it past a Kobephile to have such a biased vision.

koreancabbage
03-19-2013, 08:19 AM
why do we have like a 2-3 threads on Heat players? LOL

bucketss
03-19-2013, 08:51 AM
No it wouldn't.

three all stars(2 superstars) on one team with one of the best coaches in the league wouldnt be a superteam? bwhaha your basketball knowledge is so damn hilarious.

alexander_37
03-19-2013, 09:32 AM
Lebron James can easily be the greatest player if he continues this streak and do something that jordan or magic has ever done

Easily, you mean could maybe have a shot.

Lakersfan2483
03-19-2013, 09:38 AM
Just start calling LBJ the G.O.A.T now.... He's better than Michael, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, etc....

3RDASYSTEM
03-19-2013, 09:53 AM
I don't recall Magic and Jordan having a top 5 player as a wing man and another top 15 player as a third option all still in their primes.

Magic had Kareem at 35 and he wasn't a top 5 player anymore.

Jordan did have Pippen in his prime for the first 3 peat, but he was never a top 5 player. Nor did he ever have a top 15 player in their prime as a third option.

ALCINDOR wasn't your typical 35 yr old, he was winning league MVP's damn near annually preMAGIC, so how can having WORTHY/ALCINDOR and top notch bench/6th men not be stacked? MAGIC went to 9 FINALS, how In the **** can you get to that many FINALS app. without a damn stacked squad dummy?

BEAN did the same thing and I don't see you talking ****, he swindled his way to a 56 win team in LA without him or SHAQ, plus they had 4 allstars and didn't make FINALS app? you're so blind to see that BRON has pulled a BEAN, just he waited 8yrs to do it, BEAN did it predraft, Rookie yr, 7ppg

and since ALCINDOR was 35, so is RAY or older, BATTIER is 34 so who cares, they all can play but none were on ALCINDOR level, he won like 6 total league MVP's, damn you cant be this dumb bball wise

ALCINDOR at 35 with that deadly skyhook is all he needed at that stage, MAGIC/WORTHY/COOPER/SCOTT were the young horses,they had the baddest old horse ever, damn you cant be this bball dumb

WADE is coming off his 2nd knee surgery or so and hes a old old 30(still dynamite) and BOSH is a bottom top 10 PF in the game, no different than a PIPP/JORDAN/RODMAN or a PIPP/JORDAN/GRANT or a ZEKE/RODMAN/DUMARS or a MAGIC/ALCINDOR/WORTHY or a DREXLER/PORTER/CLIFF or a BIRD/MCHALE/PARISH or whatever else combo or trio that was dynamic and went on to big things

imagine had BRON/WADE waited until year 4 to make a FINALS app, a big time failure right? instead they on verge of going for 3rd FINALS app., in 3 yrs as mates

then how come its not the same for BEAN/SHAQ? it took them 4yrs to make a FINALS app right? I smell ''overrated' and I aint talking about SHAQ or BRON or WADE, im talking about the 'backupguard'

ManRam
03-19-2013, 10:39 AM
I don't get the obsession people have to worry about these things in the middle of someone's prime.

I'm not sure if he has a shot at the GOAT honestly. Too many people will (fairly or not) hold him leaving Cleveland against him. However, his individual prime right now pales in comparison to essentially no one. The only knock against him at this time is team success...and there's obviously a divergence of opinion in how much that matters.


Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Worry about this stuff later.

bucketss
03-19-2013, 10:40 AM
ALCINDOR wasn't your typical 35 yr old, he was winning league MVP's damn near annually preMAGIC, so how can having WORTHY/ALCINDOR and top notch bench/6th men not be stacked? MAGIC went to 9 FINALS, how In the **** can you get to that many FINALS app. without a damn stacked squad dummy?

BEAN did the same thing and I don't see you talking ****, he swindled his way to a 56 win team in LA without him or SHAQ, plus they had 4 allstars and didn't make FINALS app? you're so blind to see that BRON has pulled a BEAN, just he waited 8yrs to do it, BEAN did it predraft, Rookie yr, 7ppg

and since ALCINDOR was 35, so is RAY or older, BATTIER is 34 so who cares, they all can play but none were on ALCINDOR level, he won like 6 total league MVP's, damn you cant be this dumb bball wise

ALCINDOR at 35 with that deadly skyhook is all he needed at that stage, MAGIC/WORTHY/COOPER/SCOTT were the young horses,they had the baddest old horse ever, damn you cant be this bball dumb

WADE is coming off his 2nd knee surgery or so and hes a old old 30(still dynamite) and BOSH is a bottom top 10 PF in the game, no different than a PIPP/JORDAN/RODMAN or a PIPP/JORDAN/GRANT or a ZEKE/RODMAN/DUMARS or a MAGIC/ALCINDOR/WORTHY or a DREXLER/PORTER/CLIFF or a BIRD/MCHALE/PARISH or whatever else combo or trio that was dynamic and went on to big things

imagine had BRON/WADE waited until year 4 to make a FINALS app, a big time failure right? instead they on verge of going for 3rd FINALS app., in 3 yrs as mates

then how come its not the same for BEAN/SHAQ? it took them 4yrs to make a FINALS app right? I smell ''overrated' and I aint talking about SHAQ or BRON or WADE, im talking about the 'backupguard'

what do you have against kareems real name?

Fired-Up
03-19-2013, 10:51 AM
Just because LeBron is playing at a high level does not mean others before haven't. Not to mention more complete resumes. Currently LeBron is playing at a level that few have reached. But some have. Duncan, Shaq, MJ all have played at levels this high or higher than LeBron before.

So granted LeBron is playing the best ball the NBA has seen in 10 years, dominance, such as this has been reached before. Just not in a decade.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 11:09 AM
He put up the worst numbers in finals history for a franchise player.

LMFAO

Are we ignoring several of Kobe's performances? And is there something better about putting up worse numbers than Bron did before even reaching the Finals?

ManRam
03-19-2013, 11:09 AM
Just because LeBron is playing at a high level does not mean others before haven't. Not to mention more complete resumes. Currently LeBron is playing at a level that few have reached. But some have. Duncan, Shaq, MJ all have played at levels this high or higher than LeBron before.

So granted LeBron is playing the best ball the NBA has seen in 10 years, dominance, such as this has been reached before. Just not in a decade.


I know people who don't want to believe what they suggest are adverse to them, but the advanced stats suggest that this is more rare than you suggest. At the very least, they're the best all-encompassing stat that makes comparing a big man to a PG to a wing possible. They mean something, but certainly not everything. What he's done lately is something that is above what Duncan, Magic, Shaq etc. have all done.

After this season, he's going to have 4 of the top 11 best seasons in terms of PER and WS/48. Michael, Kareem and Wilt are the only others to be in the top 11. 4 MVPs in 5 years is remarkable...and for all 4 of those (unlike some MVP winners) he was actually the best player in the league. We're talking territory that only Wilt, Kareem and MJ can sniff all time.


I think it's a little more impressive than what you're giving credit for. This sustained dominance isn't something we've seen since Jordan. We haven't seen a player universally lauded as the best player this consistently and long since Jordan. We haven't seen this many MVPs go to one player since Jordan (in landslide victories too).


How does it all fit in in terms of all time legacy? That's TBD. The ONLY knocks that remain now are A) him leaving Cleveland to get the talent around him that all of the great had during their careers but he hadn't yet and B) rings. Both are HEAVILY dependent on non-individual things...and when I'm comparing INDIVIDUALS, I care mostly about individual play and don't pretend that every player has had the same circumstances. If he stops winning rings now, then I'll bash him. But expecting him to have won rings in Cleveland with that cast is expecting something from LeBron that MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell etc. never had to do. Is that fair?

Fired-Up
03-19-2013, 11:27 AM
I know people who don't want to believe what they suggest are adverse to them, but the advanced stats suggest that this is more rare than you suggest. At the very least, they're the best all-encompassing stat that makes comparing a big man to a PG to a wing possible. They mean something, but certainly not everything. What he's done lately is something that is above what Duncan, Magic, Shaq etc. have all done.

After this season, he's going to have 4 of the top 11 best seasons in terms of PER and WS/48. Michael, Kareem and Wilt are the only others to be in the top 11. 4 MVPs in 5 years is remarkable...and for all 4 of those (unlike some MVP winners) he was actually the best player in the league. We're talking territory that only Wilt, Kareem and MJ can sniff all time.


I think it's a little more impressive than what you're giving credit for. This sustained dominance isn't something we've seen since Jordan. We haven't seen a player universally lauded as the best player this consistently and long since Jordan. We haven't seen this many MVPs go to one player since Jordan (in landslide victories too).


How does it all fit in in terms of all time legacy? That's TBD. The ONLY knocks that remain now are A) him leaving Cleveland to get the talent around him that all of the great had during their careers but he hadn't yet and B) rings. Both are HEAVILY dependent on non-individual things...and when I'm comparing INDIVIDUALS, I care mostly about individual play and don't pretend that every player has had the same circumstances. If he stops winning rings now, then I'll bash him. But expecting him to have won rings in Cleveland with that cast is expecting something from LeBron that MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell etc. never had to do. Is that fair?

I go by the eye test. Also Shaq and Duncan played on slower paced grind it out teams where it's hard to accumulate volume stats. PER and Win Shares only take into account what the box score says. Therefore it's not the best way to measure dominance. The eye test is. And my eyes tell me that Duncan and Shaq played at similar levels to LeBron.

All 3 of them represent what a true all time great player is. Through and through. And that is making a huge impact on who wins and loses the game. I will not accept that Duncan in 2003 when he destroyed the league and won Finals MVP with Stephen Jackson as his 2nd best player was not playing at a level similar to LeBron. Well you can try and convince me. Cuz I'm open to learn and accept new ideas. Same goes for Shaq.

tdg823
03-19-2013, 11:35 AM
Last night was a great example of why I can't stand Lebron. It's not just him, it's this whole generation of players, he's just the posterboy. They're all arrogant and entitled with inferiority complexes. Someone took their toys on the playground when they were young and now they bend over backwards to show how bad they are (or wish they were) and to make others feel like ****. Celebrate if you're excited, but not in a way that shows up the other guy. That's what to many celebrations are nowadays, not "look what I did", but "look what I did to YOU". There's a psychological reason for that. It's an underlying inferiority that the individual perceives that causes that.
Jordan didn't mean mug the whole front row after a wide open dunk or taunt a smaller guy. He never danced after a game winning shot. Lebron does it constantly. Constantly.
It's the football "act like you've been there before, act like you're going to be there again" concept. If you're actually confident, you don't need to beat your chest or glare. If you're secretly weak minded you do.
As for Lebron himself, he has been more hyped and coddled form inception than ANY star in NBA history. The bulk of his accomplishments are league and ref assisted, but he still pouts and trips at EVERY call he doesn't get.
Simply put, he's weak, fake and sad. And so is the hype syurrounding him.

And did you see with about 10 minutes left in the third were he rolled on the floor and held his head after there was NO CONTACT? PLEASE show me Jordan doing something so dishonest and pansy. Heat fans let me hear you defend that (or act like he doesnt pull that stunt on a regular basis)

ManRam
03-19-2013, 11:36 AM
Oh please, this team is a mockery to the purity of the sport of basketball.

He left Cleveland to get what every other all time great had: multiple HOFers.


Lebron needs more help than any other superstar has gotten in NBA history just to win a ring.

Your thread about "stacked" teams, in which you've now abandonded because people are actually putting forth good arguments that you even know you can't refute, shows you that this isn't true.


He couldn't even get the job done back in 2011 with by far the best team in the league and HCA in the finals.

This is a fair critique on him. It's the one time where I think he had talent that MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell etc. all won with, and didn't win. Thing is, they all (besides MJ) also have lost in Finals as well, a few of which did so as the favored team as well.


He put up the worst numbers in finals history for a franchise player.

It would probably be too much to ask you to actually back this claim up...

In 2011: 18-7-7 on 48% shooting.


Kobe 2010: 29-8-4 on 41% shooting
Kobe 2008: 26-5-5 on 41% shooting
Dirk 2006: 23-10-3 on 39% shooting
TD 2005: 21-14-2 on 42% shooting
Kobe 2004: 23-3-4 on 38% shooting (without a doubt far worse than LeBron's)



The east is a joke and Lebrons team is far above the level of competition in the eastern conference. I'm with Jason terry on this one...Not impressed in the least.

They're beating a lot of bad teams, but they're beating a ton of good teams too. I mean, if beating bad teams was so easy, why don't more of these streaks happen? Winning on back-to-backs on the road is HARD. Hell, your Lakers haven't won a back-to-back all year.

SAS has losses to Minny, Portland (x2), PHX, Detroit, New Orleans, Utah.
OKC has losses to Brookleny, WAS, Minny, Cleveland, Utah.
LAC has losses to Cleveland, BK, NO, PHX, Portland, Toronto, WAS.
Miami even has losses against Washington, Detroit, Milwaukee, Portland.

Bad teams beat good teams regularly. Teams face Jeff Green performances a good amount of times in a season. To not trip up ONCE in 23 games is remarkable. I don't know why I'm trying to convince you of that...they could go 82-0 and you'd not be impressed. It's happened ONCE before...what is not to be impressed with? If it were so easy, more teams would do it.

And don't act like they haven't beaten good teams. The only playoff teams they haven't beat over this stretch are BK, Denver, GS and SAS. They might very well get their shot at SAS too.

Who else do you need them to beat? They've beaten them all.



And Kobe's first three rings were against incredibly weak EC teams, if you wanna play that game. The 76ers and the Nets twice.



Not sure why I bother with your kind. It's like trying to have a reasonable discussion with a brick wall.

ManRam
03-19-2013, 11:40 AM
I go by the eye test. Also Shaq and Duncan played on slower paced grind it out teams where it's hard to accumulate volume stats. PER and Win Shares only take into account what the box score says. Therefore it's not the best way to measure dominance. The eye test is. And my eyes tell me that Duncan and Shaq played at similar levels to LeBron.

All 3 of them represent what a true all time great player is. Through and through. And that is making a huge impact on who wins and loses the game. I will not accept that Duncan in 2003 when he destroyed the league and won Finals MVP with Stephen Jackson as his 2nd best player was not playing at a level similar to LeBron. Well you can try and convince me. Cuz I'm open to learn and accept new ideas. Same goes for Shaq.

League pace has not changed much at all over the last 20 years. And the Heat actually don't play at a high/frenetic pace. They're in the bottom third of the league actually in pace.

I don't disagree that Duncan and Shaq played at similar levels - they're all time greats who LeBron probably is chasing still. I disagree that they did so this consistently and towered over their peers this much. We're talking a ~5 year stretch now where he's been playing at such a higher level individually than anyone else. That's something those guys never did. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Wade, Dirk etc. were all the best players in the league maybe for 2 years max.

And in 2003 Parker, Robinson and Manu were all better than Jackson. But yes, he did win with less than what LeBron's doing now...but winning with less doesn't necessarily mean you played better. You still have to compare individual play.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 11:41 AM
I go by the eye test.
So you ignore accolades and stats? Why?



Also Shaq and Duncan played on slower paced grind it out teams where it's hard to accumulate volume stats. PER and Win Shares only take into account what the box score says.
Incorrect, PER attempts to account for pace and studies have shown that playing at a slower pace can actually enhance your PER, especially for post players. If your going to critique something, its best to know abit about the subject matter first.


Therefore it's not the best way to measure dominance. The eye test is. And my eyes tell me that Duncan and Shaq played at similar levels to LeBron.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but surely you cant fault someone for using their eyes and the numbers that back their opinion. I mean, if Im making a case, I tend to side with the group that has facts to support what they think they are witnessing. Your case isnt as compelling as his, because he does more than simply tell us to obey what his eyes tell him. He provides both objective and subjective facts (stats=objective, accolades=subjective).


All 3 of them represent what a true all time great player is. Through and through. And that is making a huge impact on who wins and loses the game. I will not accept that Duncan in 2003 when he destroyed the league and won Finals MVP with Stephen Jackson as his 2nd best player was not playing at a level similar to LeBron. Well you can try and convince me. Cuz I'm open to learn and accept new ideas. Same goes for Shaq.
Except Stephen Jackson wasn't the 2nd best player. I agree with what your saying, I do think Shaq/Duncan have played at superior levels. Im just saying, if you just want to agree to disagree, just say that. Because if this was your attempt at a rebuttal, from an outsiders perspective, it was a lackluster attempt filled with fallacies.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 11:44 AM
Last night was a great example of why I can't stand Lebron. It's not just him, it's this whole generation of players, he's just the posterboy. They're all arrogant and entitled with inferiority complexes. Someone took their toys on the playground when they were young and now they bend over backwards to show how bad they are (or wish they were) and to make others feel like ****. Celebrate if you're excited, but not in a way that shows up the other guy. That's what to many celebrations are nowadays, not "look what I did", but "look what I did to YOU". There's a psychological reason for that. It's an underlying inferiority that the individual perceives that causes that.
Jordan didn't mean mug the whole front row after a wide open dunk or taunt a smaller guy. He never danced after a game winning shot. Lebron does it constantly. Constantly.
It's the football "act like you've been there before, act like you're going to be there again" concept. If you're actually confident, you don't need to beat your chest or glare. If you're secretly weak minded you do.
As for Lebron himself, he has been more hyped and coddled form inception than ANY star in NBA history. The bulk of his accomplishments are league and ref assisted, but he still pouts and trips at EVERY call he doesn't get.
Simply put, he's weak, fake and sad. And so is the hype syurrounding him.

And did you see with about 10 minutes left in the third were he rolled on the floor and held his head after there was NO CONTACT? PLEASE show me Jordan doing something so dishonest and pansy. Heat fans let me hear you defend that (or act like he doesnt pull that stunt on a regular basis)
I always found MJ to be similarly insecure, he just displayed it with vitriol instead of arrogance.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 11:54 AM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...

+1

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 11:56 AM
Oh please, this team is a mockery to the purity of the sport of basketball. Lebron needs more help than any other superstar has gotten in NBA history just to win a ring. He couldn't even get the job done back in 2011 with by far the best team in the league and HCA in the finals. He put up the worst numbers in finals history for a franchise player. The east is a joke and Lebrons team is far above the level of competition in the eastern conference. I'm with Jason terry on this one...Not impressed in the least.

Great post.

SteBO
03-19-2013, 11:57 AM
I'm just astonished at the lengths people will go to discredit LeBron at every turn. Don't you people get tired?

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 12:01 PM
Wade isn't top 5 and Bosh isn't top 15, so I'm not sure why people keep harping on that point.

Were they not last year? :laugh: Don't all you Heat fans claim Wade is the best SG and top five player? Make up your minds.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 12:03 PM
Oh...a new sig quote. Nice. :)

I already had a sig of him saying that lol. I got rid of it for my new one.

Fired-Up
03-19-2013, 12:09 PM
Alright if PER takes into account the pace of the game then so be it. The stats say what they say. They don't lie because it's a mathematical formula. But we can choose how much stock to put into what they are saying.

My examples.

Late 80s Jordan> Early 90s Jordan Statistically. At the very least. Late 80s Jordan= Early 90s Jordan
Late 00's LeBron= Early 10's LeBron Statistically.

Now for the impact they have on who wins the actual game.

Early 90s Jordan> Late 80s Jordan
Early 10's LeBron> Late 00's LeBron

That's the best way I can illustrate what makes a player great. Stat's tells us some things. They don't tell us who played at a higher level. It's about what you do to have an impact on who wins the game. After all, the point is to play and to make winning plays.

And to answer the question. LeBron is playing at level not seen in a decade.

justinnum1
03-19-2013, 12:40 PM
O, they mad as hell in here:laugh2:

23

PleaseBeNice
03-19-2013, 12:57 PM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...

omg dude GIVE IT UP.

Jimmer55
03-19-2013, 01:52 PM
Lebron James can easily be the greatest player if he continues this streak and do something that jordan or magic has ever done

Um, no. Lebron ruined any chance at GOAT status when he abandoned his team to form a super/dream/all-star team when he couldn't hack it as the alpha male. He went to a team with a fellow top 3-5 player, a top 10-15 player, and has some of the greatest role players of all time. Jordan LOST and LOST and LOST and STAYED. Jordan did NOT abandon his team. Lebron made the FINALS and abandoned his team. Jordan did NOT make the finals before age 28. Lebron has turned in two of the most HISTORICAL CHOKES in finals HISTORY. Jordan NEVER lost a finals.

NEVER compare Lebron to MJ. NEVER. That is sickening.

Nats_vcu-Okc35
03-19-2013, 01:53 PM
Lebron and the heat have been killin it. Still getting better, one clutch shot at a time. Been a joy to watch.

I could honestly care less what anyone else thinks about him and this streak, at this point.

This streak is impressive, but really only a sign of how far in front of their competition the heat are. You beat who is on the schedule, and this team has done so in just about every way imaginable.

Lebron, to me is the unquestioned leader and MVP on a team stacked with talent for sure, but the fact that he is SUCH a clear MVP choice, makes it all the more impressive.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 01:54 PM
Um, no. Lebron ruined any chance at GOAT status when he abandoned his team to form a super/dream/all-star team when he couldn't hack it as the alpha male. He went to a team with a fellow top 3-5 player, a top 10-15 player, and has some of the greatest role players of all time. Jordan LOST and LOST and LOST and STAYED. Jordan did NOT abandon his team. Lebron made the FINALS and abandoned his team. Jordan did NOT make the finals before age 28. Lebron has turned in two of the most HISTORICAL CHOKES in finals HISTORY. Jordan NEVER lost a finals.

NEVER compare Lebron to MJ. NEVER. That is sickening.

+1

Becks2307
03-19-2013, 01:55 PM
I think Lebron is going to be #2 all time barring some odd injury.

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:00 PM
Um, no. Lebron ruined any chance at GOAT status when he abandoned his team to form a super/dream/all-star team when he couldn't hack it as the alpha male. He went to a team with a fellow top 3-5 player, a top 10-15 player, and has some of the greatest role players of all time. Jordan LOST and LOST and LOST and STAYED. Jordan did NOT abandon his team. Lebron made the FINALS and abandoned his team. Jordan did NOT make the finals before age 28. Lebron has turned in two of the most HISTORICAL CHOKES in finals HISTORY. Jordan NEVER lost a finals.

NEVER compare Lebron to MJ. NEVER. That is sickening.
+2

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:01 PM
I think Lebron is going to be #2 all time barring some odd injury.

He better start winning a lot of championships.

Fired-Up
03-19-2013, 02:04 PM
Lebron and the heat have been killin it. Still getting better, one clutch shot at a time. Been a joy to watch.

I could honestly care less what anyone else thinks about him and this streak, at this point.

This streak is impressive, but really only a sign of how far in front of their competition the heat are. You beat who is on the schedule, and this team has done so in just about every way imaginable.

Lebron, to me is the unquestioned leader and MVP on a team stacked with talent for sure, but the fact that he is SUCH a clear MVP choice, makes it all the more impressive.

I had him neck and neck with somebody out West before an injury put him out of commission.

justinnum1
03-19-2013, 02:06 PM
In 10 years. Young people will consider lebron the goat. Mj will always be #1 to me. But bron is the best player since MJ easily.

poleandreel
03-19-2013, 02:09 PM
Lets being perfectly honest, if you put Lebron on those Jordan Bull's and take off Jordan, he probably has 5 or 6 rings also. Same can be said about this him on the Shaq lakers, the Magic Lakers, etc.

CityofTreez
03-19-2013, 02:09 PM
LeBron is the best RIGHT NOW, and when it's all said and done, will be the best!

He just has to win a couple more rings for the "respect factor" and then it will be locked up.

ClearSoulForce
03-19-2013, 02:10 PM
Is LeBron on a 23 game winning streak? No. The Miami Heat are.

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:13 PM
In 10 years. Young people will consider lebron the goat. Mj will always be #1 to me. But bron is the best player since MJ easily.Remember this guy name Kobe Bryant? He has 5 rings I think.

Fired-Up
03-19-2013, 02:18 PM
Remember this guy name Kobe Bryant? He has 5 rings I think.

When will it end......

Just when.

Kobe is not as good as Shaq or Duncan. Or LeBron.

Give it up. He's great, but not THAT great.

justinnum1
03-19-2013, 02:22 PM
In 10 years. Young people will consider lebron the goat. Mj will always be #1 to me. But bron is the best player since MJ easily.Remember this guy name Kobe Bryant? He has 5 rings I think.

He was the #2 on 3 of them.

After this season lebron will have as many finals Mvps as Kobe lol!

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 02:23 PM
Remember this guy name Kobe Bryant? He has 5 rings I think.

What does that have to do with what justin said? Remember this guy named Robert Horry? He has 7 rings I think.

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:23 PM
He was the #2 on 3 of them.

After this season lebron will have as many finals Mvps as Kobe lol!Really that's your best excuse?

justinnum1
03-19-2013, 02:25 PM
He was the #2 on 3 of them.

After this season lebron will have as many finals Mvps as Kobe lol!Really that's your best excuse?

There is no excuse. Lebron will passions after next season on the all time list. You're not even a laker or Kobe fan.

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:25 PM
What does that have to do with what justin said? Remember this guy named Robert Horry? He has 7 rings I think.

Only difference is Kobe was a star player and Horry was a role player.:facepalm:

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:26 PM
There is no excuse. Lebron will passions after next season on the all time list. You're not even a laker or Kobe fan.I am a fan of greatness ad Kobe Bryant=greatness.

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 02:28 PM
Only difference is Kobe was a star player and Horry was a role player.:facepalm:

Well I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at, there was no context in your post either. I thought we were just naming people on championship teams. In that case Scottie Pippen has 6 rings, he was a star.

Sactown
03-19-2013, 02:36 PM
Well I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at, there was no context in your post either. I thought we were just naming people on championship teams. In that case Scottie Pippen has 6 rings, he was a star.

That Bill Russell Fellow had quite a few rings himself and I think he was a star too...

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:37 PM
Well I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at, there was no context in your post either. I thought we were just naming people on championship teams. In that case Scottie Pippen has 6 rings, he was a star.
So you are saying Wade is better than Lebron?

Wade 2 rings>Lebron 1 ring

PhillyFaninLA
03-19-2013, 02:37 PM
Remember this guy name Kobe Bryant? He has 5 rings I think.

Say the words Robert Horry is better then Kobe Bryant or get off the rings arguement.

PhillyFaninLA
03-19-2013, 02:40 PM
When will it end......

Just when.

Kobe is not as good as Shaq or Duncan. Or LeBron.

Give it up. He's great, but not THAT great.


Well said....early in his career he wasn't the best player on his team, in the middle he wasn't the best in the league, and towards the end well its towards the end. There may not have been even 1 season he was the best in the league. He is great and a top 50 all time player but

Kobe is no better then the 5th best Laker of all time, he is not better than Magic, Shaq, Wilt, or Kareem.

Baller1
03-19-2013, 02:45 PM
He's already top 10 all-time with a virtual guarantee to be top 2. It'll be fun to see if he can claim the top spot.

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 02:49 PM
He's already top 10 all-time with a virtual guarantee to be top 2. It'll be fun to see if he can claim the top spot.So he is guarantee already to be top 2 all time? Talk about disrespecting the past all time great players.

lavilevi23
03-19-2013, 02:53 PM
Lol the hypocrisy with Lakers fans never ****ing ends...

During the all time Lebron James debate:
LEBRON NEED THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH A TOP 5 PF IN THE GAME. His championship deserves an astricks because he couldn't do it alone (but I'LL IGNORE ****ING SHAQ WHEN HE CARRIED KOBE TO ****ING 3 RINGS, AND PAU GASOL WHO BAILED HIM OUT OF HIS ****** FINALS PERFORMANCE)

Other debate, Wade is the best SG:
Lakers fans: WHAT? Wade is 30 and on the decline, Kobe is way superior and Harden is better too! Wade is a decent player playing with the best in the game and is maybe top 30 overall... fringe top 10 in the League, clearly Kobe is still #1

So WHICH ****ING IS IT LAKERS FANS? IS WADE #2 AND BEST SG? OR FRINGE TOP 10... STOP SWITCHING BACK AND ****ING FORTH TO FURTHER YOUR BASELESS ARGUMENT!!

This 100%

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 02:53 PM
That Bill Russell Fellow had quite a few rings himself and I think he was a star too...

haha ya, I was going for someone outside the top 10. I love when people say they are sick of the robert horry argument and don't realize that they are using the exact same thing. Saying 5 rings without any context is the exact same as saying 7 rings without any context. The point is 5 rings means that player was on a championship caliber team at least 5 times in his career and won. Yes their role does matter, its why I brought up Horry. Kobe has 2 finals mvps because he wasn't the best player for 3 of those titles. He also has been surrounded by a championship caliber team for like 12ish years of his career. Context matters.

In the case of comparing Lebron to Kobe (which he was doing) using 5 rings means very little when kobe was sidekick for 3 of those and had a dominating frontcourt the other two while lebron has only had help of that level (or greater) for 2.5 years. Yes Kobe has more rings but lebron now has the help to get some of his own. If the heat don't win another title then 5 rings to 1 starts to matter. If the Heat win the next 2 and lebron gets 2 finals mvps, then 5 rings won't mean that much when comparing the players.

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 02:58 PM
So you are saying Wade is better than Lebron?

Wade 2 rings>Lebron 1 ring

Do you seriously not remember what you just posted? No, I am not claiming that having more rings than a player makes you better. I am the one who was trying to point out that is a flawed way to look at things. According to you maybe the 2 rings to 1 gives wade the edge...

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 03:01 PM
Do you seriously not remember what you just posted? No, I am not claiming that having more rings than a player makes you better. I am the one who was trying to point out that is a flawed way to look at things. According to you maybe the 2 rings to 1 gives wade the edge...No all I said is Kobe has 5 rings. Never said anything about comparing rings, you jumped to conclusions thinking I was comparing Kobe rings to other players.

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 03:12 PM
In 10 years. Young people will consider lebron the goat. Mj will always be #1 to me. But bron is the best player since MJ easily.


Remember this guy name Kobe Bryant? He has 5 rings I think.


No all I said is Kobe has 5 rings. Never said anything about comparing rings, you jumped to conclusions thinking I was comparing Kobe rings to other players.

Justin brought up Lebron possibly being known as the goat by young people. You brought up kobe and 5 rings. Why bring kobe up and mention 5 rings if your not trying to compare him to those two players? I don't get what your point was? Also why then facepalm me for doing the same thing with horry if there wasn't a comparison between players?

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 03:14 PM
Justin brought up Lebron possibly being known as the goat by young people. You brought up kobe and 5 rings. Why bring kobe up and mention 5 rings if your not trying to compare him to those two players? I don't get what your point was? Also why then facepalm me for doing the same thing with horry if there wasn't a comparison between players?I said remember this guy name Kobe Bryant he has 5 rings. All I was saying is don't forget about Kobe he had a pretty good career.

mexican dodger
03-19-2013, 03:14 PM
Kobe is the best

PhillyFaninLA
03-19-2013, 03:15 PM
Just a reminder this topic is about Lebron and not Kobe.

Im_in_Mia_bish
03-19-2013, 03:16 PM
lol a year ago d12 was doggin kobe, and now hes slurping kobe.. how is that possible? lmao

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 03:19 PM
lol a year ago d12 was doggin kobe, and now hes slurping kobe.. how is that possible? lmao
So me rooting for Lebron last year to win his first ring, made me dog Kobe?

lol I never said a bad thing about Kobe during my time on PSD either show facts where I dogged Kobe or quit making shyt up.

Im_in_Mia_bish
03-19-2013, 03:21 PM
So me rooting for Lebron last year to win his first ring, made me dog Kobe?

lol I never said a bad thing about Kobe during my time on PSD either show facts where I dogged Kobe or quit making shyt up.

no you hatin on the lakers means you were doggin kobe. i dont get how someone jumps team to team, and supports a wide arrange of teams.. and supports lebron in the playoffs, but goes all whiny whenever lebron gets praised?

weird..

anyways, which team are you going to support in the playoffs this year?

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 03:31 PM
I said remember this guy name Kobe Bryant he has 5 rings. All I was saying is don't forget about Kobe he had a pretty good career.

LOL, someone mentions lebron and jordan and you must also throw kobes name in there. So you in fact were trying to bring kobe into the conversation then. That's fine, but you didn't just say that, you brought up rings as the only type of support. When you reply to a post and bring up a player and his rings you understand what you are doing, especially with kobe. You can play dumb all you want.

D12 fan
03-19-2013, 03:40 PM
LOL, someone mentions lebron and jordan and you must also throw kobes name in there. So you in fact were trying to bring kobe into the conversation then. That's fine, but you didn't just say that, you brought up rings as the only type of support. When you reply to a post and bring up a player and his rings you understand what you are doing, especially with kobe. You can play dumb all you want.
Play dumb? You are trying to put words in my mouth I never compared Kobe to other players, all I said was don't overlook Kobe because he has 5 rings.

What's wrong with stating a fact?

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 03:56 PM
Play dumb? You are trying to put words in my mouth I never compared Kobe to other players, all I said was don't overlook Kobe because he has 5 rings.

What's wrong with stating a fact?

I don't know, tried stating a fact and got facepalmed...


What does that have to do with what justin said? Remember this guy named Robert Horry? He has 7 rings I think.


Only difference is Kobe was a star player and Horry was a role player.:facepalm:

Then you put words in my mouth saying that I said wade is better than lebron


So you are saying Wade is better than Lebron?

Wade 2 rings>Lebron 1 ring

He115ing
03-19-2013, 03:56 PM
Not really a threat topic also learn some syntax.

koberulesall
03-19-2013, 04:31 PM
not the greatest but when he retires a top 20 and thats really good!

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 04:32 PM
It's called a bandwagon fan, ever hear of em? Your fanbase has a lot of em.

:laugh: :burn: :laugh:

amos1er
03-19-2013, 04:49 PM
He left Cleveland to get what every other all time great had: multiple HOFers.

I have said multiple times that I don't have a problem with him leaving Cleveland. It's just that the superteam he constructed made him seem like a vagina. He had plenty of other options that could have placed him on very good teams. Guess he is just afraid of a challenge and wants the sure thing. He took the easy way out and a true competitor would not have. Even Jordan, the ultimate competitor and GOAT, snubbed him for "The Decision".


Your thread about "stacked" teams, in which you've now abandonded because people are actually putting forth good arguments that you even know you can't refute, shows you that this isn't true.

I was out celebrating St. Patty's Day and when I came back to PSD, the mods moved it to the graveyard known as the "Comparisons Forum". A very lame move indeed.


This is a fair critique on him. It's the one time where I think he had talent that MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell etc. all won with, and didn't win. Thing is, they all (besides MJ) also have lost in Finals as well, a few of which did so as the favored team as well.

No one had the talent that Lebron now has. This "Big 3" is overkill and is a disgrace to the sport of basketball, all the greats that came before him, the spirit of fair competition, and most of all...himself.


It would probably be too much to ask you to actually back this claim up...

In 2011: 18-7-7 on 48% shooting.


Kobe 2010: 29-8-4 on 41% shooting
Kobe 2008: 26-5-5 on 41% shooting
Dirk 2006: 23-10-3 on 39% shooting
TD 2005: 21-14-2 on 42% shooting
Kobe 2004: 23-3-4 on 38% shooting (without a doubt far worse than LeBron's)

Do I really have to dig up his 4th quarter stats???

TD, Kobe, or Dirk never had a superteam like that to fall back on during their horrible performances. Even with Lebron's chocking, he had HCA due to his unfair superteam and historically weak conference, and he had the most stacked team in NBA history...he still couldn't get the job done and had the worst consecutive NBA finals 4th quarter meltdowns in history.


They're beating a lot of bad teams, but they're beating a ton of good teams too. I mean, if beating bad teams was so easy, why don't more of these streaks happen? Winning on back-to-backs on the road is HARD. Hell, your Lakers haven't won a back-to-back all year.

This had nothing to do with the Lakers. I am well aware of their struggles this year. I might also add that Kobe is 34, Nash is 39, and Pau is 33. Dwight is the only one of our supposed "big 4" that is still in his prime and under 30...he is currently coming off back surgery (which takes a year to recover from) and is a shell of his former self. Nash missed a ton of games, Gasol missed a ton of games, Kobe is currently injured. Lets not even mention how many games Blake missed and the fact that Hill is most likely done for the season.


SAS has losses to Minny, Portland (x2), PHX, Detroit, New Orleans, Utah.
OKC has losses to Brookleny, WAS, Minny, Cleveland, Utah.
LAC has losses to Cleveland, BK, NO, PHX, Portland, Toronto, WAS.
Miami even has losses against Washington, Detroit, Milwaukee, Portland.

Bad teams beat good teams regularly. Teams face Jeff Green performances a good amount of times in a season. To not trip up ONCE in 23 games is remarkable. I don't know why I'm trying to convince you of that...they could go 82-0 and you'd not be impressed. It's happened ONCE before...what is not to be impressed with? If it were so easy, more teams would do it.

And don't act like they haven't beaten good teams. The only playoff teams they haven't beat over this stretch are BK, Denver, GS and SAS. They might very well get their shot at SAS too.

Who else do you need them to beat? They've beaten them all.

So what...not impressed. It's not equal competition at all. Lebron has the best team in NBA history and he plays against the bottom tier of the league for the most part. The east is and has been a joke for quite some time now and his team is head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. The Lakers formed their elite squad only to combat this monstrosity that Lebron has put together. Even still, they are not all in their primes still like Miami and have had a **** ton of injuries. This current Lakers squad is only a counter move to one of the lamest moves in NBA history.




And Kobe's first three rings were against incredibly weak EC teams, if you wanna play that game. The 76ers and the Nets twice.

Not very good logic there bro. I expect more from you. I can't belive I even have to remind you that Kobe had to come through the west to beat the east. 2000 Trailblazers, 2001 Kings, 2001 Spurs, 2002 Kings. Those are better teams than Lebron has ever faced in his entire playoff career.



Not sure why I bother with your kind. It's like trying to have a reasonable discussion with a brick wall.

Because deep down you know I'm right. You can label me a "troll" all you want if it helps you sleep better at night, but we both know the truth. :)

MetroMan
03-19-2013, 04:49 PM
Whose lebron? Never heard of it

MetroMan
03-19-2013, 04:57 PM
One thing is for sure, if the heat were in the west, they would never make it to the finals

amos1er
03-19-2013, 05:02 PM
One thing is for sure, if the heat were in the west, they would never make it to the finals

Yes. Lebron has never faced the level of competition that Kobe has.

ROY 2 MVP Braun
03-19-2013, 05:18 PM
He's saying he wouldn't call up Magic and Larry Bird. Last time I checked that's two players. If you think Bird/Magic is comparable to Wade, one of them is left to be compared to Bosh. Which in my opinion, makes this a stupid comparison. Although I like the little dig you left in there "past his prime"

mjs saying that they were top players in the game not comparing bosh to one of them but saying that he's another top player in the league now....how hard is that to really understand?

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 05:21 PM
TD, Kobe, or Dirk never had a superteam like that to fall back on during their horrible performances. Even with Lebron's chocking, he had HCA due to his unfair superteam and historically weak conference, and he had the most stacked team in NBA history...he still couldn't get the job done and had the worst consecutive NBA finals 4th quarter meltdowns in history.

The point still remains he isn't the only player to have a bad finals performance and his team didn't win it all without him. Is he at fault, yes of course he is. Was it the worst performance ever? debatable but as manram showed other top talents have had similar poor play in the finals.





So what...not impressed. It's not equal competition at all. Lebron has the best team in NBA history and he plays against the bottom tier of the league for the most part. The east is and has been a joke for quite some time now and his team is head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. The Lakers formed their elite squad only to combat this monstrosity that Lebron has put together. Even still, they are not all in their primes still like Miami and have had a **** ton of injuries. This current Lakers squad is only a counter move to one of the lamest moves in NBA history.


He knew he had to team up with another supertar because of the big 3 plus rondo in boston, Kobe, pau, bynum plus for the lakers, and the thunder had a young great core in tact as well. You don't think the heat were reacting to those super teams around the league as well? None of their teams were surrounding them with talent so they decided to give themselves the best chance at a title. If lebron goes to chicago it is still a superteam. If lebron goes to new york to play with glass knees he's screwed. If lebron stays in cleveland he's screwed. Whatever you think about them teaming up that is an opinion and has nothing to do with how they actually play on the court.





Not very good logic there bro. I expect more from you. I can't belive I even have to remind you that Kobe had to come through the west to beat the east. 2000 Trailblazers, 2001 Kings, 2001 Spurs, 2002 Kings. Those are better teams than Lebron has ever faced in his entire playoff career.

I am not so sure about that. Celtics(2008,2010) and thunder last year arent in that conversation? You are so big on top level talent why are Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka not equal to any of those early 2000 teams (also many people would take shaq and role players over bosh and wade so that la team was pretty stacked itself)

I'm sure manram will want to respond to all your points, but these ones seem so ridiculous to me. It's ok for teams to gain tons of talent as a reaction to others but when players decide to do it because their teams don't give them support it is wrong? You pick a finals performance to hold against him yet when manram brings up other superstars who have had very bad and similar performances it means nothing to you. Then on top of it all Lebron has never played teams as great as the early 2000 teams? Anything to back that up?

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 05:25 PM
One thing is for sure, if the heat were in the west, they would never make it to the finals

If this is true then people need to stop saying they are so stacked. People whine how good they are and then 10 minutes later say they just don't play good competition and wouldn't last in the tough west. Doesn't make sense.

OceanSpray
03-19-2013, 05:49 PM
Jordan and Magic didn't have the help that Lebron has.

MJ said it best...

You're even worse than Jimmer. At least Jimmer can admit LeBron is the best right now. You on the other hand is a full out troll. Jordan never had the help? Magic never had help? Bird never had help? Lmao, it's easy for Jordan to say considering he had a team to begin with. LeBron had to find his own because it was clearly not going to be done for him. About that, Bulls without Jordan won 2 less games and was one game away from the finals. Cleveland without LeBron? 18-64.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-19-2013, 05:59 PM
I am starting to hate this place. Always the same crap.

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 06:05 PM
You're even worse than Jimmer. At least Jimmer can admit LeBron is the best right now. You on the other hand is a full out troll. Jordan never had the help? Magic never had help? Bird never had help? Lmao, it's easy for Jordan to say considering he had a team to begin with. LeBron had to find his own because it was clearly not going to be done for him. About that, Bulls without Jordan won 2 less games and was one game away from the finals. Cleveland without LeBron? 18-64.


Bulls went from tied with the best record in the league to having the worst record once MJ left in 1998. It took 7 years for the Bulls to make the playoffs again once MJ left.

Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year.

In 1994, Bulls lost MJ and gained Kukoc, Kerr, Myers, Wennington, Longley to name a few with everyone in their prime.

The similar situation would have been MJ leaving after 1998 and the team staying intact how many do they win in 1999 when everyone was old as dirt?

bucketss
03-19-2013, 06:06 PM
he wont be the greatest but will be top 5.

jordan
magic
kareem
lebron
wilt/bird

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 06:23 PM
I have said multiple times that I don't have a problem with him leaving Cleveland. It's just that the superteam he constructed made him seem like a vagina. He had plenty of other options that could have placed him on very good teams. Guess he is just afraid of a challenge and wants the sure thing. He took the easy way out and a true competitor would not have. Even Jordan, the ultimate competitor and GOAT, snubbed him for "The Decision".



I was out celebrating St. Patty's Day and when I came back to PSD, the mods moved it to the graveyard known as the "Comparisons Forum". A very lame move indeed.



No one had the talent that Lebron now has. This "Big 3" is overkill and is a disgrace to the sport of basketball, all the greats that came before him, the spirit of fair competition, and most of all...himself.



Do I really have to dig up his 4th quarter stats???

TD, Kobe, or Dirk never had a superteam like that to fall back on during their horrible performances. Even with Lebron's chocking, he had HCA due to his unfair superteam and historically weak conference, and he had the most stacked team in NBA history...he still couldn't get the job done and had the worst consecutive NBA finals 4th quarter meltdowns in history.



This had nothing to do with the Lakers. I am well aware of their struggles this year. I might also add that Kobe is 34, Nash is 39, and Pau is 33. Dwight is the only one of our supposed "big 4" that is still in his prime and under 30...he is currently coming off back surgery (which takes a year to recover from) and is a shell of his former self. Nash missed a ton of games, Gasol missed a ton of games, Kobe is currently injured. Lets not even mention how many games Blake missed and the fact that Hill is most likely done for the season.



So what...not impressed. It's not equal competition at all. Lebron has the best team in NBA history and he plays against the bottom tier of the league for the most part. The east is and has been a joke for quite some time now and his team is head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. The Lakers formed their elite squad only to combat this monstrosity that Lebron has put together. Even still, they are not all in their primes still like Miami and have had a **** ton of injuries. This current Lakers squad is only a counter move to one of the lamest moves in NBA history.





Not very good logic there bro. I expect more from you. I can't belive I even have to remind you that Kobe had to come through the west to beat the east. 2000 Trailblazers, 2001 Kings, 2001 Spurs, 2002 Kings. Those are better teams than Lebron has ever faced in his entire playoff career.




Because deep down you know I'm right. You can label me a "troll" all you want if it helps you sleep better at night, but we both know the truth. :)

Solid posting.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-19-2013, 06:26 PM
he wont be the greatest but will be top 5.

jordan
magic
kareem
lebron
wilt/bird

I agree top 5

Mj
Kobe
Kaj
Magic
Lebron

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 06:35 PM
Bulls went from tied with the best record in the league to having the worst record once MJ left in 1998. It took 7 years for the Bulls to make the playoffs again once MJ left.

Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year.

In 1994, Bulls lost MJ and gained Kukoc, Kerr, Myers, Wennington, Longley to name a few with everyone in their prime.

The similar situation would have been MJ leaving after 1998 and the team staying intact how many do they win in 1999 when everyone was old as dirt?

This is the biggest bull **** post I've ever seen.

Actually the Bulls were still a contender when Jordan left. They almost made the Finals one year. When Pippen, Jordan, and Phil Jackson left is when the problems started happening.

Lol yeah because Big Z and Delonte West were premier players. Sure.

Oh and fat Shaq doesn't matter.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 06:37 PM
How is the player with the most missed shots in NBA history a top 5 player?

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 06:38 PM
:clap: Thanks D12 for being honest. 90 percent of psd bandwagon heat fans would never do the same.

I'm not a Heat fan. I'm a Sonics/Lebron fan. Since there's no Sonics I watch the best basketball player I've ever seen play, and listen to Lakers fans cry about how Kobe doesn't have enough hall of famers to make the playoffs.

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 06:39 PM
This is the biggest bull **** post I've ever seen.

Actually the Bulls were still a contender when Jordan left. They almost made the Finals one year. When Pippen, Jordan, and Phil Jackson left is when the problems started happening.

Lol yeah because Big Z and Delonte West were premier players. Sure.

Oh and fat Shaq doesn't matter.

False. Bulls made the 2nd round one year and that was due to playing a Cavs team in round 1 who were missing it's top 2 players in Nance and Daugherty. Saying the Bulls almost made the finals one year is like saying the Raptors almost made the finals one year.

Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever set foot on the floor for the Cavs and Shaq was the allstar game mvp the season before going to Cleveland and also a 3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp winner.

OceanSpray
03-19-2013, 06:40 PM
Bulls went from tied with the best record in the league to having the worst record once MJ left in 1998. It took 7 years for the Bulls to make the playoffs again once MJ left.

Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year.

In 1994, Bulls lost MJ and gained Kukoc, Kerr, Myers, Wennington, Longley to name a few with everyone in their prime.

The similar situation would have been MJ leaving after 1998 and the team staying intact how many do they win in 1999 when everyone was old as dirt?


Lol, that doesn't explain how Scottie led the Jordan-less Bulls to two less wins and a near finals appearance. What makes you think the full Cavs roster without LeBron could've made it to the playoffs? Mo Williams went from nobody to All Stars and now back to nobody. The impact LeBron has on a team is unmatched. I'm sorry but Roddie and Scottie were 10x better than any player LeBron had back at Cleveland. It's easy to call someone out for joining a team when you had a winning team.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 06:42 PM
False. Bulls made the 2nd round one year and that was due to playing a Cavs team in round 1 who were missing it's top 2 players in Nance and Daugherty. Saying the Bulls almost made the finals one year is like saying the Raptors almost made the finals one year.

Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever set foot on the floor for the Cavs and Shaq was the allstar game mvp the season before going to Cleveland and also a 3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp winner.

Uhh yeah exactly. They were extremely past their prime. If you think the Cavs losing all that is anywhere comparable to what the Bulls lost when Pippen, Jordan (GOAT), Jackson(GOAT). Your ****ing smoking crack.

Lebron James was the only reason that Cavs team even made the playoffs that year.

ATX
03-19-2013, 06:43 PM
How is the player with the most missed shots in NBA history a top 5 player?

He's not, at least not to anyone respected in NBA circles, and even here. I'll give him top 10, which is saying a lot. I have him as 9th or 10th all time, but to suggest he's top 5 is just asinine. The only people in the world you will see put Kobe as the 2nd greatest ever are Kobphiles. Secondly, there is no way on God's green Earth that LeBron will be behind Kobe when it's all said and done. LeBron is light years better than Kobe has ever been. Again, top 10, just not top 5. That is NOT hating, just realism. I also have Kobe over Wade all time, and by about 15 spots. It just irks me that the philes are so threatened by Wade's efficiency that they can't even admit that he's an elite level talent of all time.

heyman321
03-19-2013, 06:43 PM
False. Bulls made the 2nd round one year and that was due to playing a Cavs team in round 1 who were missing it's top 2 players in Nance and Daugherty. Saying the Bulls almost made the finals one year is like saying the Raptors almost made the finals one year.

Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever set foot on the floor for the Cavs and Shaq was the allstar game mvp the season before going to Cleveland and also a 3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp winner.

lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 06:47 PM
In the second round of the playoffs the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 7. They also had one of the biggest bull **** calls go against them in game 5 to lose them the game. They should of won that series. Even a lot of Knicks fans would agree with that.

Did you even watch basketball back then lol? Every Bulls fan knows that, and every bulls fan thinks they should of made the finals that year, or at least face the Rockets in the next round.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 06:49 PM
You act like the bulls didn't win 55 games the year after Jordan left...

Forreal Jordan's bulls you have no idea what you're talking about. The Bulls were favorites by a lot of people in that season.

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 06:55 PM
Lol, that doesn't explain how Scottie led the Jordan-less Bulls to two less wins and a near finals appearance. What makes you think the full Cavs roster without LeBron could've made it to the playoffs? Mo Williams went from nobody to All Stars and now back to nobody. The impact LeBron has on a team is unmatched. I'm sorry but Roddie and Scottie were 10x better than any player LeBron had back at Cleveland. It's easy to call someone out for joining a team when you had a winning team.

Mo Williams didn't develop around Lebron. Mo was a 17 and 6 guy before Joining Lebron and then was a 17 and 4 player with him. Not like Lebron aided him in becoming a star.
In fact Lebron has always played with Proven winners. He had Ben Wallace in 2009 who won a title as the man. He had Shaq in 2010 who won 3 titles as the man, had 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and then Wade in 2011 who won a title as the man. He never brought a franchise a title and he will never bring a team that hasn't won anything a title as he left.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

He went to a supporting cast rather than building it. He chose to team up with established stars because he couldn't win anything while constructing a team.

And using 1994 doesn't really apply here because it was a team that had just won 3 straight titles and had everyone in there primes. It isn't like it was 1998 and then MJ left and in 1999 the team did it. The Bulls in 1999 in tact without MJ may not had even been .500.

Also wouldn't call Lebron's impact unmmatched, this is the same guy who has 2 bronze medals playing with superstar players in the Olympics and FIBA.

poleandreel
03-19-2013, 06:58 PM
Mo Williams didn't develop around Lebron. Mo was a 17 and 6 guy before Joining Lebron and then was a 17 and 4 player with him. Not like Lebron aided him in becoming a star.
In fact Lebron has always played with Proven winners. He had Ben Wallace in 2009 who won a title as the man. He had Shaq in 2010 who won 3 titles as the man, had 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and then Wade in 2011 who won a title as the man. He never brought a franchise a title and he will never bring a team that hasn't won anything a title as he left.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

He went to a supporting cast rather than building it. He chose to team up with established stars because he couldn't win anything while constructing a team.

And using 1994 doesn't really apply here because it was a team that had just won 3 straight titles and had everyone in there primes. It isn't like it was 1998 and then MJ left and in 1999 the team did it. The Bulls in 1999 in tact without MJ may not had even been .500.

Do you have this spiel saved somewhere on your computer where you just copy and past it here? I see thiss every week in each lebron thread

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 06:58 PM
In the second round of the playoffs the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 7. They also had one of the biggest bull **** calls go against them in game 5 to lose them the game. They should of won that series. Even a lot of Knicks fans would agree with that.

Did you even watch basketball back then lol? Every Bulls fan knows that, and every bulls fan thinks they should of made the finals that year, or at least face the Rockets in the next round.

The bolded is so overblown by yourself and by others. First of all, lets remember one thing: It was a foul. If you read that article by JA Adande from last year talking about this, it clearly states it was a foul. It was just a foul that was rarely called back then, which in turn means, yes the Bulls were screwed. But was it as big of a travesty as you and others make it out to be? No.

Second, there have been worse calls/no-calls made by refs in the playoffs. I don't see how the Pippen foul was worse then the Karl Malone football hold on Drexler in the 97 WCF which ended up with a wide open John Stockton series winning 3 pointer. I don't think that was worse then the blatant shove Reggie Miller gave to Jordan in game 3 of the 98 ECF to set up himself up with an open three-pointer. Does it make the 94 call okay? No, but just like you don't hear much complaints about those calls, I don't see how this warrants the label its gotten.

Third, no one seems to mention the huge fight in game 3 of this series that was pretty much a benefit to the Bulls and a blow to the Knicks. A scrub named JoJo English starts the fight with the Knicks starting PG, Derek Harper. As a result, both are ejected for the rest of game 3, which had 1 half left (Derek Harper played 13 minutes) to play, and are suspended for games 4 and 5. The Bulls losing JoJo English didn't mean much since he was a nobody. The Knicks losing Derek Harper was huge. Game 3 ended up with the Bulls winning by only 2 points on a Kukoc buzzer-beater. Is it far-fetched to think the Knicks would've done better with Harper in the game and possibly won? The Bulls won convincingly in game 4, but maybe it would've been different if Harper played. After all, he is someone that you believe would've been the difference in the Bulls going to the Finals and/or winning a title if they had been able to get him during the offseason. So really, just like you say the Pippen foul could've been the difference in the Bulls losing in 7 vs. the Bulls winning in 6, the Harper-English could've been the difference in the Knicks winning in 7 vs. the Knicks sweeping.

I'm not saying the above would've happened. The Bulls could've won those games anyway, just like the Knicks could've won anyway if it weren't for the Pippen foul. But you can say the Knicks were hurt by something that had nothing to do with the way they played and over something they didn't even initiate and things could've ended up very differently if it wasn't for that.

And even if you just want to say the Knicks weren't that great cause the Bulls w/o Jordan took the Knicks to 7 games, its still a false statement to make. Were the 08 Celtics not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by a under .500 Hawks team and a Lebron+scrubs Cavs team? Were the 09 Lakers not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by the Rockets who didn't have T-Mac and didn't have Yao for half the series? ***** like that happens all the time in the NBA.

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 06:59 PM
Do you have this spiel saved somewhere on your computer where you just copy and past it here? I see thiss every week in each lebron thread

No you don't see it every week, because I avoided those threads for a good two months.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 07:07 PM
Bulls went from tied with the best record in the league to having the worst record once MJ left in 1998. It took 7 years for the Bulls to make the playoffs again once MJ left.

Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year.

In 1994, Bulls lost MJ and gained Kukoc, Kerr, Myers, Wennington, Longley to name a few with everyone in their prime.

The similar situation would have been MJ leaving after 1998 and the team staying intact how many do they win in 1999 when everyone was old as dirt?

Bulls lost alot more than Cleveland lost the years they fell apart. Cleveland actually upgraded its coaching staff, had Antawn for a full year too. And notice how regardless of whether or not those old role players were around, the team won so long as BRON was around.

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 07:07 PM
You act like the bulls didn't win 55 games the year after Jordan left...

Forreal Jordan's bulls you have no idea what you're talking about. The Bulls were favorites by a lot of people in that season.

Well, we can at least credit Jordan for the improvement in 1994/95. As Jordan came back the Bulls were at 34-31. In the last 17 games they went 13-4. They improved their average scoring margin from 4.2 without Jordan to 6.9 with Jordan. So, the Bulls went from a 43 wins team to a 63 wins team with a not-in-shape Jordan.
That gives a much better impression how much impact a Jordan had.


Myers, that is the name of that guy. And the team wasn't basically the same. They added Luc Longley in a mid-season trade for Stacey King. A big improvement in terms of size and quality. Your so-called Rookie Toni Kukoc was an established 25 year old player at that time already. Kukoc was a 3-time Euroleague Final 4 MVP, World Championship MVP, European Championship MVP, two time European Player of the Year (won that award over guys like Drazen Petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis). Kukoc fitted into that Bulls system very well due to his height, passing and shooting abilities.

Afterall the Bulls team from 1993 underachieved during the regular season. They went 1-3 in those 4 games without Jordan. They had a 6.19 SRS, still the 4th best in the league. The 2nd best team on offense and the 7th best team on defense. Well, yes, in the end they "only" won 57 games in the regular season. Teams like that usually win 60+ games.

With Pippen and Grant at their absolute prime the Bulls team overachieved in 1994. Their SRS of 2.87 is one of the weakest All-Time in the NBA for teams that winning around 67% of their games. Those kind of teams have an average SRS of 4.46. The Bulls were able to win a couple of more close games than they should. Instead of winning 50 games, they won 55 with an much improved FC. You are talking about Myers as a starter, but in the end he only played 25 minutes per game. At the end of the day the Bulls kept their defensive strength and were the 6th best defensive team. But their offense suffered, they went from being the 2nd best offense in the league in 1993 to the 14th best in 1994.


Let alone that you likely mean the 1993 Chicago Bulls, it is quite funny that a lot of people think that the 1994 Bulls were essential the same only without Jordan. Well, the Bulls gave 43% of the minutes in 1993/94 to 7 players who didn't play a single minute for the 1993 Bulls. Half of the roster was new, but somehow people believe it was the same team.
The other thing is that the 1993 Bulls had to play 4 games without Jordan. They went 1-3 in those games. The only game they won was against the Mavericks, probably the worst team in NBA history with a -14.68 SRS that season.

No, the 1993 Bulls would have not won a championship without Jordan and they were also not so close to it one year later with a different roster

Chronz
03-19-2013, 07:23 PM
I have said multiple times that I don't have a problem with him leaving Cleveland. It's just that the superteam he constructed made him seem like a vagina. He had plenty of other options that could have placed him on very good teams. Guess he is just afraid of a challenge and wants the sure thing. He took the easy way out and a true competitor would not have. Even Jordan, the ultimate competitor and GOAT, snubbed him for "The Decision".
The same MJ that threatened to retire if Chicago dared trade his binky? Or Magic Johnson who has already admitted to not wanting the challenge that awaited him in Chicago when he had the opportunity to spend his career with KAJ. Bird.... well lets just say he has already gone on the record, calling Brons most recent title the most dominant he may have ever seen. Guess he knows its more than just talent.

Bron took the route he did because it seemed to be the best place to win titles. After what he put up with in Cleveland, I can understand why.




I was out celebrating St. Patty's Day and when I came back to PSD, the mods moved it to the graveyard known as the "Comparisons Forum". A very lame move indeed.
So will you get back to it or not?



No one had the talent that Lebron now has. This "Big 3" is overkill and is a disgrace to the sport of basketball, all the greats that came before him, the spirit of fair competition, and most of all...himself.
Proof?




Do I really have to dig up his 4th quarter stats???
So your argument is that its better to struggle all game as opposed to not scoring in the 4th? What about struggling before even reaching the Finals? Is it somehow more honorable?


TD, Kobe, or Dirk never had a superteam like that to fall back on during their horrible performances.
6-24?




So what...not impressed. It's not equal competition at all. Lebron has the best team in NBA history and he plays against the bottom tier of the league for the most part. The east is and has been a joke for quite some time now and his team is head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. The Lakers formed their elite squad only to combat this monstrosity that Lebron has put together. Even still, they are not all in their primes still like Miami and have had a **** ton of injuries. This current Lakers squad is only a counter move to one of the lamest moves in NBA history.

So the Lakers 33 isnt impressive either then right?




Because deep down you know I'm right. You can label me a "troll" all you want if it helps you sleep better at night, but we both know the truth. :)
My turn. Respond to the post you ignored please...

bucketss
03-19-2013, 07:24 PM
Mo Williams didn't develop around Lebron. Mo was a 17 and 6 guy before Joining Lebron and then was a 17 and 4 player with him. Not like Lebron aided him in becoming a star.
In fact Lebron has always played with Proven winners. He had Ben Wallace in 2009 who won a title as the man. He had Shaq in 2010 who won 3 titles as the man, had 3 finals mvp's and 1 league mvp and then Wade in 2011 who won a title as the man. He never brought a franchise a title and he will never bring a team that hasn't won anything a title as he left.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg

He went to a supporting cast rather than building it. He chose to team up with established stars because he couldn't win anything while constructing a team.

And using 1994 doesn't really apply here because it was a team that had just won 3 straight titles and had everyone in there primes. It isn't like it was 1998 and then MJ left and in 1999 the team did it. The Bulls in 1999 in tact without MJ may not had even been .500.

Also wouldn't call Lebron's impact unmmatched, this is the same guy who has 2 bronze medals playing with superstar players in the Olympics and FIBA.

technically miami wasn't established at the time he wade and bosh started their dynasty together.

JordansBulls
03-19-2013, 07:29 PM
technically miami wasn't established at the time he wade and bosh started their dynasty together.

I would call a franchise that still had a guy who gave them there first title and in his prime is an established franchise still.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 07:31 PM
technically miami wasn't established at the time he wade and bosh started their dynasty together.

Bingo. He joined a .500 team whos superstar was inferior to him both statistically and subjectively.

They established a contender TOGETHER.

Besides, players are allowed to change their minds with new information.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 07:35 PM
I'd take Rodman and Pippen over Wade and Bosh any day of the week.

Just saying to compare Jordan leaving and how the Bulls did after that is ridiculous. When only Jordan left the bulls were still a very competitive team. They weren't as good, and no one could argue otherwise, but they weren't nearly as bad as when James left Cleveland.

bucketss
03-19-2013, 07:36 PM
I would call a franchise that still had a guy who gave them there first title and in his prime is an established franchise still.

no. that was all the way in 2006, they heat were mediocre at that time and were a completely different team, its like saying if someone goes to dallas they are going to an already established team which is false.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Plz stop the BS

Those Cavs went from contenders to nothing because of Bron.

Shaq? LMFAO the team played better without him most of the time, they won more without him the year before and they sported higher efficiency without him that year.

Big Z? LMFAO why you talking about All-Star games as if he was even remotely productive. He wasn't, his stats were comparable to most 12th men, the team didn't skip a beat when he was gone.

Delonte was NEVER consistently available, he always had some off court distraction going on, its why hes yet to find a job despite being an NBA caliber player.

Mo Williams was his best player and what did the Cavs do when he had to miss like 10 games? Well they plugged Bron in at PG and saw the team real off 10 wins in a row IIRC.

All this was possible so long as Bron was around..

So how did Cleveland do when Bron wasnt? Well the year they made the Finals (thanks to Brons once in a lifetime caliber game vs Detroit), the team was WINLESS without Bron in the lineup.

No other player in NBA history has ever won that many games with so little support.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 07:39 PM
Plz stop the BS

Those Cavs went from contenders to nothing because of Bron.

Shaq? LMFAO the team played better without him most of the time, they won more without him the year before and they sported higher efficiency without him that year.

Big Z? LMFAO why you talking about All-Star games as if he was even remotely productive. He wasn't, his stats were comparable to most 12th men, the team didn't skip a beat when he was gone.

Delonte was NEVER consistently available, he always had some off court distraction going on, its why hes yet to find a job despite being an NBA caliber player.

Mo Williams was his best player and what did the Cavs do when he had to miss like 10 games? Well they plugged Bron in at PG and saw the team real off 10 wins in a row IIRC.

All this was possible so long as Bron was around..

So how did Cleveland do when Bron wasnt? Well the year they made the Finals (thanks to Brons once in a lifetime caliber game vs Detroit), the team was WINLESS without Bron in the lineup.

No other player in NBA history has ever won that many games with so little support.

:clap::clap::clap:

Chronz
03-19-2013, 07:40 PM
I'd take Rodman and Pippen over Wade and Bosh any day of the week.

Just saying to compare Jordan leaving and how the Bulls did after that is ridiculous. When only Jordan left the bulls were still a very competitive team. They weren't as good, and no one could argue otherwise, but they weren't nearly as bad as when James left Cleveland.
You would be crazy. Pippen isnt better, the difference is that the 90's were a weaker era.

b@llhog24
03-19-2013, 07:41 PM
mjs saying that they were top players in the game not comparing bosh to one of them but saying that he's another top player in the league now....how hard is that to really understand?

Don't care, it's fairly misleading.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 07:41 PM
You would be crazy. Pippen isnt better, the difference is that the 90's were a weaker era.

I disagree. I think Pippen is underrated, and even though I think people underrate Bosh, Rodman just makes more sense IMO.

TheLegend
03-19-2013, 07:43 PM
I don't recall Magic and Jordan having a top 5 player as a wing man and another top 15 player as a third option all still in their primes.

Magic had Kareem at 35 and he wasn't a top 5 player anymore.

Jordan did have Pippen in his prime for the first 3 peat, but he was never a top 5 player. Nor did he ever have a top 15 player in their prime as a third option.

There was a time when Pip was considered an elite player with his dominate all around game. Never better than Jordan but he was up there.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
Wasn't Pippen younger than Jordan? Wasn't he drafted the year after Jordan was injured?

They basically went through there primes together.

TheLegend
03-19-2013, 07:47 PM
Wrong! I would take pip over wade and this is the weaker era HANDSDOWN!!!

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 07:49 PM
Scottie Pippen is one of the best defensive players of all time. I don't see why people act like he's some scrub that followed Jordan.

Also the man was a good offensive player. Not great like Jordan, but still very good.

TheLegend
03-19-2013, 07:50 PM
In this Era, Noah is considered a top center and some think he's the best or 2nd best. Back in the Ewing/Hakeem/Mourning era, he wouldve NEVER made the all star team.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 07:57 PM
I disagree. I think Pippen is underrated, and even though I think people underrate Bosh, Rodman just makes more sense IMO.

Pippen might be a better 2nd option, but Wade is a better number 1. How else do you explain Pippen's lack of production?

Chronz
03-19-2013, 08:02 PM
In this Era, Noah is considered a top center and some think he's the best or 2nd best. Back in the Ewing/Hakeem/Mourning era, he wouldve NEVER made the all star team.

In that era, Latrell Spreewell was ALL-NBA 1st Team. He wouldn't even be an All-Star today.

Werent Starks/BJ Armstrong considered All-Stars back then?

And I dont mean the talent at the top was weaker, my point is that those players were usually by themselves in their prime.

I mean who was the 2nd best perimeter player back then? You could make a strong argument that it was Pippen.

AIRMAR72
03-19-2013, 08:15 PM
Lebron James can easily be the greatest player if he continues this streak and do something that jordan or magic has ever done not so fast kid, plus you SHOULD also consider that it IS easier to PLAY in todays NBA, but BRON along with Wade are doing IT the BEST duo since MJ and Scottie who could easily take-out Bron n Wade in a 2man contest

BigCityofDreams
03-19-2013, 08:19 PM
I said remember this guy name Kobe Bryant he has 5 rings. All I was saying is don't forget about Kobe he had a pretty good career.

Nah Kobe was just lucky. His first few rings belong to Shaq, his next couple of rings belong to Pau, he was never the best player in the league, his defensive team selections are all gift wrapped, etc. It was all luck and being in the right place at the right time. He never worked hard and was given a free ride.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 08:20 PM
Scottie Pippen is one of the best defensive players of all time. I don't see why people act like he's some scrub that followed Jordan.

Also the man was a good offensive player. Not great like Jordan, but still very good.

Wade is an EXCELLENT offensive player tho, and hes not too shabby defensively. Saying Wade is better than Pippen isnt the same as saying Pippen was a scrub.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:25 PM
Wade is an EXCELLENT offensive player tho, and hes not too shabby defensively. Saying Wade is better than Pippen isnt the same as saying Pippen was a scrub.

I'm not saying you personally are saying it. I'm just saying most people treat Pippen like he's trash and it's irritating.

There's just something to be said about a forward that can guard 3 positions IMO. In one on one basketball I'm sure Wade is the much better all around player, but in a team I just think Pippen does a lot of stuff beyond the numbers. Defense just isn't something that stats do any justice for.

I guess the argument can be made for either one, but I still think Rodmans defense and rebounding is the exact formula that gives you championships. Not saying you HAVE to have it, but Rodman was great at what he did. Could never stop the dream shake though. Was his kryptonite.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:26 PM
I'd take Rodman and Pippen over Wade and Bosh any day of the week.

Just saying to compare Jordan leaving and how the Bulls did after that is ridiculous. When only Jordan left the bulls were still a very competitive team. They weren't as good, and no one could argue otherwise, but they weren't nearly as bad as when James left Cleveland.

:laugh: You are hilarious bro!!! The hits just keep on coming with you. Another new sig quote. It's like every time you post!!! Hahahahahahahaha

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:28 PM
Nah Kobe was just lucky. His first few rings belong to Shaq, his next couple of rings belong to Pau, he was never the best player in the league, his defensive team selections are all gift wrapped, etc. It was all luck and being in the right place at the right time. He never worked hard and was given a free ride.

Most people that hate on Kobe aren't saying that Kobe isn't a great basketball player or a great competitor, but he's not even in the same league as the greats. Like all time greats. Shaq, MJ, LBJ, Hakeem, Magic. The true best players ever to play the game.

The only thing Lakers fans ever say to defend Kobe is "5 rings" like he's the only reason for those rings. He had one of the best all time players on his team for 3 of his rings, and great depth throughout his entire career. Players love to play for LA. Then they throw LBJ under the bus for going to a different team when Kobe threatened to do the same thing after HE RUINED THE TEAM. Oh yeah and he also had the greatest coach of all time for every single one of his championships.

It's just blows my mind how ignorant and dumb Kobe fans can be. I don't care if you like Kobe, and think he's great but if you think he's top 5 you're ****ing loaded.

Jimmer55
03-19-2013, 08:28 PM
And for the record, I hate when people say that we should all "enjoy what we are witnessing" in reference to Lebron and this Heat team. What the heck is there to enjoy? Arrogant fake-humble superstars and puffy-chested role players/journey men bonding together like some bastardized band of brothers? Gawd, what a fraud that team is. I'd rather of watched my colonoscopy than watch two minutes of these jokers clown the rest of the league. It's all "fake-greatness". They can take that win streak and stuff it up their **** like contraband for all I care.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:30 PM
:laugh: You are hilarious bro!!! The hits just keep on coming with you. Another new sig quote. It's like every time you post!!! Hahahahahahahaha

Dude I love every one of those quotes you have on there lol. I don't know what the deal is.... Your sig is a joke anyways. It's a conspiracy theory you chose to believe with no facts lol.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:31 PM
Those Cavs went from contenders to nothing because of Bron.


I disagree...The Cavs went from nothing to an extremely good regular season team because of Lebron. They beat the teams they were supposed to, but lost to every great team that they faced. I would surely not classify those Cavs teams as "contenders", though it was very impressive how far Lebron took them and those two MVP's he earned while in Cleveland were deserved for what he did there. I would say calling those Cavs teams contenders is mildly overrating them and Lebron to say the least.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:33 PM
And for the record, I hate when people say that we should all "enjoy what we are witnessing" in reference to Lebron and this Heat team. What the heck is there to enjoy? Arrogant fake-humble superstars and puffy-chested role players/journey men bonding together like some bastardized band of brothers? Gawd, what a fraud that team is. I'd rather of watched my colonoscopy than watch two minutes of these jokers clown the rest of the league. It's all "fake-greatness". They can take that win streak and stuff it up their **** like contraband for all I care.

I don't think anyone is keeping a record of the dumb **** you say.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:35 PM
Dude I love every one of those quotes you have on there lol. I don't know what the deal is.... Your sig is a joke anyways. It's a conspiracy theory you chose to believe with no facts lol.

It's called circumstantial evidence...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/06/02/lebron.surgery.ap/index.html


Team: LeBron has benign growth removed from jaw

Posted Jun 2 2009 11:36PM
CLEVELAND (AP) -- Cleveland Cavaliers star LeBron James had a benign growth removed from his right jaw during a five-hour surgical procedure at the Cleveland Clinic on Tuesday.

James has had the condition for several months, but with permission from his treating doctors, he and his family decided to put off the operation until the Cavs completed their NBA season. Cleveland was eliminated from the NBA playoffs on Saturday by Orlando in the Eastern Conference finals.
During the operation, Dr. Frank Papay removed tissue from the parotid gland, which produces saliva. Surgery for such conditions often takes time because of the numerous nerves and blood vessels in that area of the jaw.
The Cavaliers released a statement saying doctors were "pleased with the outcome of the procedure, and at this time, are confident that no further treatment will be needed as LeBron is expected to make a full and complete recovery."
James remains hospitalized and the team said he will soon be returning home.
The 24-year-old James was the league MVP this season after leading the Cavs to 66 regular-seasons wins and their second Central Division title. He averaged 38.5 points, 8.3 assists and 8.0 rebounds in Cleveland's series against the Magic, who won in six games.
James caused a minor controversy after Game 6 for not shaking hands with Orlando's players and skipping the postgame news conference.

A common side effect from continuous use of PED's.

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:36 PM
Also it's incorrect. I'm not a Heat fan. I'm a Sonics fan/Lebron fan. I could care less if Miami wins a championship. I'm Seattle fan through and through. How stupid this forum is and the continuous dumb **** I have to hear about how good Kobe is and how bad LBJ is ridiculous. Not on his level. Not even close.

Then I hear the Lakers cry about Kobe not having enough hall of famers around him. After 2 months of having to listen you all promise a 70 win season. You guys are the dumbest fans in any sports.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:36 PM
Most people that hate on Kobe aren't saying that Kobe isn't a great basketball player or a great competitor, but he's not even in the same league as the greats. Like all time greats. Shaq, MJ, LBJ, Hakeem, Magic. The true best players ever to play the game.

The only thing Lakers fans ever say to defend Kobe is "5 rings" like he's the only reason for those rings. He had one of the best all time players on his team for 3 of his rings, and great depth throughout his entire career. Players love to play for LA. Then they throw LBJ under the bus for going to a different team when Kobe threatened to do the same thing after HE RUINED THE TEAM. Oh yeah and he also had the greatest coach of all time for every single one of his championships.

It's just blows my mind how ignorant and dumb Kobe fans can be. I don't care if you like Kobe, and think he's great but if you think he's top 5 you're ****ing loaded.


:laugh:

It just gets better and better.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:38 PM
Also it's incorrect. I'm not a Heat fan. I'm a Sonics fan/Lebron fan. I could care less if Miami wins a championship. I'm Seattle fan through and through. How stupid this forum is and the continuous dumb **** I have to hear about how good Kobe is and how bad LBJ is ridiculous. Not on his level. Not even close.

Then I hear the Lakers cry about Kobe not having enough hall of famers around him. After 2 months of having to listen you all promise a 70 win season. You guys are the dumbest fans in any sports.

I don't know bro...you haven't exactly said some of the smartest things by my count. Please feel free to site my sig. :)

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:38 PM
It's called circumstantial evidence...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/06/02/lebron.surgery.ap/index.html



A common side effect from continuous use of PED's.

My Sister just had a tumor removed. Does she do steroids too? She's only 25 I should warn her about the side effects.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:39 PM
And for the record, I hate when people say that we should all "enjoy what we are witnessing" in reference to Lebron and this Heat team. What the heck is there to enjoy? Arrogant fake-humble superstars and puffy-chested role players/journey men bonding together like some bastardized band of brothers? Gawd, what a fraud that team is. I'd rather of watched my colonoscopy than watch two minutes of these jokers clown the rest of the league. It's all "fake-greatness". They can take that win streak and stuff it up their **** like contraband for all I care.

+1

seikou8
03-19-2013, 08:40 PM
all i know is that lebron is best in the game and best player for 4 years now and is plaing at level few have reached so just remember if dont have haters you are not doing something right. its kobe/lakers fans wade is aways top 5 player when its lebron discredit thread but the best sg in game thread its a different story.i give two seasons before lebron passes kobe

seikou8
03-19-2013, 08:40 PM
And for the record, I hate when people say that we should all "enjoy what we are witnessing" in reference to Lebron and this Heat team. What the heck is there to enjoy? Arrogant fake-humble superstars and puffy-chested role players/journey men bonding together like some bastardized band of brothers? Gawd, what a fraud that team is. I'd rather of watched my colonoscopy than watch two minutes of these jokers clown the rest of the league. It's all "fake-greatness". They can take that win streak and stuff it up their **** like contraband for all I care.

yeah u mad

ztilzer31
03-19-2013, 08:42 PM
Lol didn't the Lakers one year have Gary Payton and Karl Malone come to their team to get a ring? I mean they ended up losing, but I'm sure it was everyone but Kobe's fault.

Also those players went there because Kobe deserves that talent. LBJ deserves to be stuck with Delonte West ****ing his mom in Cleveland.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:42 PM
My Sister just had a tumor removed. Does she do steroids too? She's only 25 I should warn her about the side effects.

Ugh, it's not about that. It's about where the tumor was located. HGH users commonly experience an abnormal growth of the jaw area. A benign tumor in the jaw area is a classic sign that Lebron was most likely using high amounts of HGH.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 08:44 PM
I'm not saying you personally are saying it. I'm just saying most people treat Pippen like he's trash and it's irritating.

There's just something to be said about a forward that can guard 3 positions IMO. In one on one basketball I'm sure Wade is the much better all around player, but in a team I just think Pippen does a lot of stuff beyond the numbers. Defense just isn't something that stats do any justice for.

I guess the argument can be made for either one, but I still think Rodmans defense and rebounding is the exact formula that gives you championships. Not saying you HAVE to have it, but Rodman was great at what he did. Could never stop the dream shake though. Was his kryptonite.

Thats what makes measuring supporting talent so hard.

Bosh is a more skilled player than Rodman, if you want a first option or someone to be the best player on your team, you would be foolish to choose Rodman. Hes simply not up to the task offensively. (Even then Im unsure, if you saw Rodman in his latter days with Detroit you saw a guy whos team fell apart without him).

However, if your goal is to surround the best player in the game with guys who will help HIM win games, Rodman is DOMINANT at a very valuable skill (Defense+Rebounding). In terms of being a better 3rd guy, Rodman(And Horace Grant) are probably more valuable than Bosh is for Miami.


Bosh may be the superior talent, but a guy like Rodman/Grant can have a superior impact in the role of "3rd best" because the impact they have on the game will not be dictated by their usage.

Similar thing with Pippen only I rate Wade higher regardless.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:45 PM
all i know is that lebron is best in the game and best player for 4 years now and is plaing at level few have reached so jsut remember if dont have haters you are not doing something right. its kobe/lakers fans wade is aways top 5 player when its lerbon discredit thread but the best sg in game threaf its a different story.i give two season before lebron passes kobe

Most Wadebuffs will argue that Wade has been top 3 in the league for quite some time now.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:47 PM
I don't think anyone is keeping a record of the dumb **** you say.

I think that Jimmer is a great poster.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 08:49 PM
I disagree...The Cavs went from nothing to an extremely good regular season team because of Lebron.
Thats generally why they were contenders, obviously they werent as talented as Boston/LA among others, but they were very much contenders, albeit on the small side.


They beat the teams they were supposed to, but lost to every great team that they faced.
Too bad this has already been proven to be an irrelevant barometer. Not only that but they basically only struggled vs those teams their first 60 win season, they did much better vs the better teams the 2nd year. But again, this has been proven irrelevant when compared to the full sample of games.



I would surely not classify those Cavs teams as "contenders", though it was very impressive how far Lebron took them and those two MVP's he earned while in Cleveland were deserved for what he did there. I would say calling those Cavs teams contenders is mildly overrating them and Lebron to say the least.

Semantics, they were one of the few teams with championship aspirations. The measures you have used to disprove that claim is nonsense.

TRY HARDER TO HATE

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:49 PM
My Sister just had a tumor removed. Does she do steroids too? She's only 25 I should warn her about the side effects.

Oh and there is this too...

http://www.totalprosports.com/2013/03/04/lebron-james-link-steroid-clinic-miami-report-incarcerated-bob-video/


Major League Baseball seems to have one steroid controversy after another. McGwire, Bonds, and A-Rod were all cheaters. Then Andy Pettite, and allegedly Roger Clemens. Then Manny Ramirez, twice, followed by a positive result for Ryan Braun (which was overturned on a technicality) and a 50-game suspension for All-Star Game MVP Melky Cabrera.

On top of those, let us not forget folks like U.S. sprinter Marion Jones, or Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson. And of course, there is also the biggest case of them all: Lance Armstrong.

Anyway, all of these cases of PED use were big deals. But none of them could hold a flame to the firestorm that would erupt if, say, LeBron James were ever caught taking steroids. I mean, just think about that for a minute. This is the guy people say is the greatest athlete of his generation, the guy some say might end up being greater than Michael Jordan. If we ever found out LeBron was doping, that would be huge.

Well, there’s one source out there on the internet who claims that he has uncovered definite evidence linking LeBron James to the infamous miami clinic run by biochemist Anthony Bosch. A guy who goes by the name of Incarcerated Bob and runs the self-titled website Incarcerated Bob’s Sports Wrap claims to have interviewed a woman who used to work for Anthony Bosch. And that woman, who we know only as Jessica, claims that payments were made to the clinic from a man she called “Mr. Paul” for somebody with the initials LJ.

Now, as you may or may not know, LeBron’s close personal friend and agent is a guy named Rich Paul. So Incarcerated Bob makes the logical inference that this Mr. Paul must be Rich Paul, and that the LJ must be LeBron James.

Guess there is a bit more evidence than you think.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 08:50 PM
Double post.

BigCityofDreams
03-19-2013, 08:50 PM
Lol didn't the Lakers one year have Gary Payton and Karl Malone come to their team to get a ring? I mean they ended up losing, but I'm sure it was everyone but Kobe's fault.

Also those players went there because Kobe deserves that talent. LBJ deserves to be stuck with Delonte West ****ing his mom in Cleveland.

It was everyone's fault that season from Kobe to Shaq to Payton to Phil to the FO.

ATX
03-19-2013, 08:50 PM
And for the record, I hate when people say that we should all "enjoy what we are witnessing" in reference to Lebron and this Heat team. What the heck is there to enjoy? Arrogant fake-humble superstars and puffy-chested role players/journey men bonding together like some bastardized band of brothers? Gawd, what a fraud that team is. I'd rather of watched my colonoscopy than watch two minutes of these jokers clown the rest of the league. It's all "fake-greatness". They can take that win streak and stuff it up their **** like contraband for all I care.

Why do you post the exact same post in multiple threads? Thats lame. You act as if NBA veterans don't join title contending teams all the time, year after year, after year. It's not just Miami dude. It happens all the time. It's just that Miami is winning now, on top of the league, and who wouldn't want to play with James ands Wade, aside from you and your troll posse of 3. Your bitterness is full of hypocrisy, just wreaks of it. So many Laker teams were stacked, and your all butthurt over Miami, because they were able to amass the most top tier talent of the last 3 seasons. Did you hate Boston this much a few years ago? Even though they amassed a stacked team and are your biggest rivals, I bet it pails in comparison just because of James. Your agenda is so clear, because your scared of his greatness. Tearing other people down for achieving success is a horrible and childish trait. Hating a basketball player the way you do is sad dude. Very sad. I'm no Kobe fan, but I don't hate him. My distaste for him isn't even remotely close to your anger. Sheesh

bucketss
03-19-2013, 08:51 PM
And for the record, I hate when people say that we should all "enjoy what we are witnessing" in reference to Lebron and this Heat team. What the heck is there to enjoy? Arrogant fake-humble superstars and puffy-chested role players/journey men bonding together like some bastardized band of brothers? Gawd, what a fraud that team is. I'd rather of watched my colonoscopy than watch two minutes of these jokers clown the rest of the league. It's all "fake-greatness". They can take that win streak and stuff it up their **** like contraband for all I care.

lol so you don't watch them but you're somehow able to form a strong opinion of them? can you say TROLL

Chronz
03-19-2013, 08:53 PM
+1

What he doesn't mention is that he copied that post from another guy. Just in case you thought it was original.

But yes, I have no doubt that you guys would rather watch a camera going up an anus, I bet you guys would rather feel that then watch greatness unfold.

bucketss
03-19-2013, 08:55 PM
its funny how the two bandwaggon laker fans are co signing its actually kind of cute:)

seikou8
03-19-2013, 08:58 PM
d12 um guy with kobe sig and jimmer and amoster wat do all have common;)

BigCityofDreams
03-19-2013, 09:01 PM
Most people that hate on Kobe aren't saying that Kobe isn't a great basketball player or a great competitor, but he's not even in the same league as the greats. Like all time greats. Shaq, MJ, LBJ, Hakeem, Magic. The true best players ever to play the game.

The only thing Lakers fans ever say to defend Kobe is "5 rings" like he's the only reason for those rings. He had one of the best all time players on his team for 3 of his rings, and great depth throughout his entire career. Players love to play for LA. Then they throw LBJ under the bus for going to a different team when Kobe threatened to do the same thing after HE RUINED THE TEAM. Oh yeah and he also had the greatest coach of all time for every single one of his championships.

It's just blows my mind how ignorant and dumb Kobe fans can be. I don't care if you like Kobe, and think he's great but if you think he's top 5 you're ****ing loaded.

Sure that is not a proper way to defend someone and of course he's not the only reason but Kobe more than other player always has his legacy questioned. The man is past his prime and will retire in a cloule of seasons but the same arguments ppl had yrs ago are still being said. "Well his first three rings count count because he won them with Shaq" or "He had a terrible game 7 against the Celtics and was bailed out by his team...that never happened to another star player"

It's foolish and petty bs. That's like me saying Kareem's rings don't count because he won them with the Big O and Magic.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:09 PM
Thats generally why they were contenders, obviously they werent as talented as Boston/LA among others, but they were very much contenders, albeit on the small side.

That is a very broad definition you are using for your argument,...one that could become a very slippery slope as to what others could define as contenders. Where does the cutoff end then? I could then make an argument that any 50+ win team could be considered a contender. Hey, I could even make an argument for the 78 Bullets who won 42 games. They won the title, could I now argue that any team who wins 42 games has a shot and should therefore be considered a contender?


Too bad this has already been proven to be an irrelevant barometer. Not only that but they basically only struggled vs those teams their first 60 win season, they did much better vs the better teams the 2nd year. But again, this has been proven irrelevant when compared to the full sample of games.

They only beat weak playoff teams their entire run. Even when they made the finals on one of the easiest runs in NBA history, the best team they ever beat was the Pistons who were without the starting center they had for their previous championship run, and had a ton of locker room issues regarding coach Saunders. No real significant playoff wins for those Cavs teams that Lebron lead. They for the most part sucked against the elite teams and had an inflated regular season record due to the easy conference that they played in. Was there even a year that you could argue that they were even a top five team in the NBA?


Semantics, they were one of the few teams with championship aspirations. The measures you have used to disprove that claim is nonsense.

Likewise, the measures you have used to (very loosely) define a team with "championship aspirations" is nonesense.


TRY HARDER TO HATE

I'm not hating, just giving my honest opinion.

UPRock
03-19-2013, 09:10 PM
Oh and there is this too...

http://www.totalprosports.com/2013/03/04/lebron-james-link-steroid-clinic-miami-report-incarcerated-bob-video/

Guess there is a bit more evidence than you think.

And you're ********, Incarcerated Bob is not a source AT ALL, he just talks **** to gain Twitter followers and be famous. But since you believe everything that discredits LeBron what can I do.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:21 PM
And you're ********, Incarcerated Bob is not a source AT ALL, he just talks **** to gain Twitter followers and be famous. But since you believe everything that discredits LeBron what can I do.

Well, what about the growth in his jaw???

Surely that has to raise some eyebrows.

It's not the first implication of steroids that has surfaced around James.

Lets not forget what Derrick Rose said about key players in the NBA being on PED's also... No coincidence it came right before the Bulls played the Heat.

So many bread crumbs leading to this outcome...where there is smoke, there is fire. ;)

BigCityofDreams
03-19-2013, 09:22 PM
I disagree...The Cavs went from nothing to an extremely good regular season team because of Lebron. They beat the teams they were supposed to, but lost to every great team that they faced. I would surely not classify those Cavs teams as "contenders", though it was very impressive how far Lebron took them and those two MVP's he earned while in Cleveland were deserved for what he did there. I would say calling those Cavs teams contenders is mildly overrating them and Lebron to say the least.

I think they were contenders in a way but maybe they were overhyped to some degree. Think about it this way every yr they would run through the regular season, stacking up high win totals, and being a well oiled machine. You heard no one wants to face this team, look out for them in the PS, collision course with the Lakers, etc but then they would sputter in the PS. If you think about it all the Lebron doesn't have a team talk didn't really start until they started to rack up losses in the playoffs. I'm not saying those Cav teams were great because they weren't and obviously Lebron raised them up with his talent but you can't go from this team can't be stopped to he has no team.

Hardaway Here
03-19-2013, 09:23 PM
I just find it funny that Kobe lovers only put wade in Top 5 when its to degrade LeBron but any other time he isn't. The trolls

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:23 PM
its funny how the two bandwaggon laker fans are co signing its actually kind of cute:)

This coming from a guy who's join date is Dec 2011. :laugh:

bucketss
03-19-2013, 09:25 PM
d12 um guy with kobe sig and jimmer and amoster wat do all have common;)

all band waggon laker fans lmao, atleast d12 admits and isn't a paranoid kobephile.

bucketss
03-19-2013, 09:26 PM
This coming from a guy who's join date is Dec 2011. :laugh:

i don't think band waggon RAPTOR fans exist.

Purple_n_Gold
03-19-2013, 09:29 PM
lol so you don't watch them but you're somehow able to form a strong opinion of them? can you say TROLL
This is a very true statement and you should read what you wrote and take your own advice. You are not a fan of the Lakers there for I'm sure you don't watch them enough to base a valid/intelligent opinion on them. Yet you seem to always have something to say about the lakers/Kobe. How can most of you on here post about teams players you dislike when if you dislike them you obviously don't have enough knowledge on the situation to speak on them. This goes for people who talk about Kobe and Lebron. The dead horse of Kobe being carried by Shaq to the Finals is one of the most ignorant untrue idea that is posted on here. Kobe dominated WCfs for the most part. The finals was the Shaq show WCFs Kobe show. It's what the gameplay was. But many of you would not know that because you either didn't watch or heard someone make a dumb comment that you rolled with. One of the first comments made about this thread was a great one from a heat fan. Let the man finish his career then post these threads no one can predict the future so speculation should stop. Enjoy good teams and players if you are an NBA fan instead of posting lame arguments on here. Remember there are idiotic heat and laker fans alike. You need to separate the two. I'm sure most real heat fans hate the bandwagoners like I always have hated laker bandwagon fans. They give true fans a bad name and usually dominate this forum. I didn't even mean to write on this thread but somehow a lebron thread goes back to the same kobe bashing crap. The same thing happens when there's a kobe thread there's usually lebron bashing. It's ridiculous.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:34 PM
i don't think band waggon RAPTOR fans exist.

So your not a Lebron fan?

bucketss
03-19-2013, 09:39 PM
So your not a Lebron fan?

lebron is among one of my favorite players, i respect him as a player and as a human, growing up in tough conditions but is still a model citizen, unlike someone else who will go unnamed who has a criminal past and is a known womanizer,adulterer. despite growing up in nice family. im not saying i hate said player though LOL.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:41 PM
I just find it funny that Kobe lovers only put wade in Top 5 when its to degrade LeBron but any other time he isn't. The trolls

I had Wade top 5 in 2011. In 2012 I had him at 6. This year I have him around 5-6. I don't really see this inconsistency you are referring to.

amos1er
03-19-2013, 09:42 PM
lebron is among one of my favorite players, i respect him as a player and as a human, growing up in tough conditions but is still a model citizen, unlike someone else who will go unnamed who has a criminal past and is a known womanizer,adulterer. despite growing up in nice family. im not saying i hate said player though LOL.

My my if this doesn't say it all.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 09:44 PM
That is a very broad definition you are using for your argument,...one that could become a very slippery slope as to what others could define as contenders. Where does the cutoff end then? I could then make an argument that any 50+ win team could be considered a contender. Hey, I could even make an argument for the 78 Bullets who won 42 games. They won the title, could I now argue that any team who wins 42 games has a shot and should therefore be considered a contender?
LOL I dont see this slippery slope, Im fairly confident that ANY team in history that wins 65+ games is at the least one of the few contenders that year. You would have a point if the Cavs didn't display such great efficiency.




They only beat weak playoff teams their entire run.
Your not getting me, Im not talking about the Cavs. Im talking about NBA HISTORY. Your barometer (Record vs elite teams) is insignificant compared to the totality of a teams efficiency. But even if we pretend that wasn't true, those Cavs won more games against the best teams than they did the year prior.




Likewise, the measures you have used to (very loosely) define a team with "championship aspirations" is nonesense.
Likewise? LOL no, I actually have statistical studies to back everything Ive said here. You have nothing to cling to but semantics and nonsense.



I'm not hating, just giving my honest opinion.
I honestly dont know whats sadder.

mngopher35
03-19-2013, 09:55 PM
I had Wade top 5 in 2011. In 2012 I had him at 6. This year I have him around 5-6. I don't really see this inconsistency you are referring to.

There was a thread like 2 weeks ago about who the best sg currently is. Lakers fans were claiming it is easily kobe and that wade was probably 3rd to harden. I think the 3 of them are pretty close but they were acting as if it was absurd wade is about as kobe currently. Then threads like this come out and people say wade is a top 5 player. I think that is what people are referring to, some (definitely not all) lakers fans changing their opinion on how good wade is depending on the argument they are having.

bucketss
03-19-2013, 10:01 PM
And the stupidity continues. I guess you can't enlighten someone who is content with bein pathetic. From your admiration and analysis of said unsaid players you must be very close friends to know that. Do you know these people personally to make these judgements or are you just dumb and think you do? You are what's wrong with these kind of forums. I'm sure with your kind remarks said player will have you over for a BBQ this weekend. Ha ha

i don't need to know them this is all information that was made public, i don't HATE kobe at all because his actions hasn't had any affect on me, you're right i don't know him thats why i don't hate him.

Purple_n_Gold
03-19-2013, 10:04 PM
i don't need to know them this is all information that was made public, i don't HATE kobe at all because his actions hasn't had any affect on me, you're right i don't know him thats why i don't hate him.
So you believe everything you read in other words. Because information made available to the public is always correct right. Right.

Chronz
03-19-2013, 11:22 PM
I wonder what people think would happen if Bron was discovered to be a juicer. What if it was Kobe? Duncan even....

ztilzer31
03-20-2013, 12:16 AM
You dont have facts that LBJ does steroids like I previously said. Just a conspiracy, and like all conspiracy they pile on circumstantial evidence that has no basis in fact.

Jaw growth? Really? I've heard of some side effects of steroids but most aren't physical (some are like more hair and shrinking of the testicles).

Lebron has been huge since he was 15. He's always been significantly bigger/more athletic then every kid in his age group his entire life. If you're saying slight physical appearance changes such as a bigger jaw from the time he's 18 to now proves he does steroids is ridiculous.

Just the fact that you believe he takes steroids from the horrible evidence you have proves how ridiculously biased you are. If this was stuff about Kobe you would never even consider it (neither would I because I'm not a dumbass). It also tells you your ultimately scared that LBJ will one day be considered unanimously better than Kobe, and you'll have to cry yourself to sleep at night.

el hidalgo
03-20-2013, 12:36 AM
I wonder what people think would happen if Bron was discovered to be a juicer. What if it was Kobe? Duncan even....

doesn't matter. he has 5 rings

ztilzer31
03-20-2013, 01:02 AM
doesn't matter. he has 5 rings

:clap:

pacman16
03-20-2013, 01:35 AM
Eh it's really a team accomplishment, so I don't think it will greatly enhance his career,

funny cause everyone says he needs more championship rings to be on kobe's an jordan's level right?? .... isn't that a team accomplishment as well??

Avenged
03-20-2013, 02:29 AM
You guys obviously can't have a decent discussion about this..

46 deleted posts and counting in this thread alone. Ironically, the people that complain about others, and report others posts are the same ones who derail threads in the 1st place with this kobe vs lebron, lakers vs heat.

This topic will come up again (it always does) but if the baiting and insulting continues, infractions will be given out.