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Jarvo
03-18-2013, 12:40 PM
Dude scored 25pts in the 4th to bring his team back for a win lastnight, I know some of you think he's overrated and even shouldn't be a started but this was a good performance.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=HuX6Sc0dCQc&feature=g-subs-u

JiffyMix88
03-18-2013, 12:43 PM
Dude scored 25pts in the 4th to bring his team back for a win lastnight, I know some of you think he's overrated and even shouldn't be a started but this was a good performance.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=HuX6Sc0dCQc&feature=g-subs-u

Yeah it was very impressive and he has been playing extremely well as of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bucks sign him and let Brandon Jennings walk if the price is too steep for them to match.

Jarvo
03-18-2013, 12:49 PM
Yeah it was very impressive and he has been playing extremely well as of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bucks sign him and let Brandon Jennings walk if the price is too steep for them to match.

He's one of my fav players players and he should get talked about this because if Lebron, Kobe, Melo or etc etc did it it would've been the biggest story of the night smh.

SeoulBeatz
03-18-2013, 12:51 PM
monta is that dude.

sixers got a spot waiting for ya....

JiffyMix88
03-18-2013, 12:54 PM
monta is that dude.

sixers got a spot waiting for ya....

Another Sixer fan giving up on Turner I see

Tony_Starks
03-18-2013, 12:56 PM
Come on you know Monta is one of the long list of players that Psd hates on, on a regular basis. Along with: Jennings, Joe Johnson, AI, Westbrook, Blake Griffin, McGrady, Eric Gordon.....etc.

Whenever his name comes up people will just hate and call him a chucker....

time4change
03-18-2013, 12:58 PM
Yeah it was very impressive and he has been playing extremely well as of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bucks sign him and let Brandon Jennings walk if the price is too steep for them to match.

As a bucks fan I'd rather let both walk.

Helluva a game by Monta, well more like helluva offensive game by Ellis because he (along with most the team) got abused defensively all night...against the Magic.

I was at a game earlier this year against the Cavs and he scored 37 points...in a loss. He made 37 points just look awful so it's good to see a win.

Jarvo
03-18-2013, 01:01 PM
monta is that dude.

sixers got a spot waiting for ya....

I want Monta on The Spurs so damn bad!

Alayla
03-18-2013, 01:03 PM
Another Sixer fan giving up on Turner I see

how do you get that out of that? Turner starts at 3 not 2

Alayla
03-18-2013, 01:03 PM
monta is that dude.

sixers got a spot waiting for ya....

Never That.

xxplayerxx23
03-18-2013, 01:05 PM
Guy can score. I've always been a fan, he needs to shoot a better percentage but he isn't a bad player like some like to say.

KnickaBocka.44
03-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Unless he grows a few inches he wont ever improve.

SeoulBeatz
03-18-2013, 01:11 PM
Never That.

lol, id take him.

incredibly inefficient but exciting as hell.

better than the players we currently have on our roster who are incredibly inefficient and BORING as ****.

SugeKnight
03-18-2013, 01:16 PM
He needs to go back to 08 and never get on that moped

xxplayerxx23
03-18-2013, 01:18 PM
Unless he grows a few inches he wont ever improve.

Lol what? I think he would be great with the right influence. If he was a spur for example I think he would greatly improve.

Minimal
03-18-2013, 01:21 PM
One of the most underrated players in the NBA, he was never that bad as people tend to proclaim here. I don't understand the hate for this guy.

Kefman2110
03-18-2013, 01:28 PM
Ever since he's been running the team at the pg spot he's shown how talented he really is. As a Bucks fan I hope we can resign Monte and let Jennings walk.

LAKobeBryant
03-18-2013, 01:35 PM
chuckers get hot once in a while.....

bagwell368
03-18-2013, 01:44 PM
Come on you know Monta is one of the long list of players that Psd hates on, on a regular basis. Along with: Jennings, Joe Johnson, AI, Westbrook, Blake Griffin, McGrady, Eric Gordon.....etc.

Whenever his name comes up people will just hate and call him a chucker....

And they'd be right

bagwell368
03-18-2013, 01:45 PM
One of the most underrated players in the NBA, he was never that bad as people tend to proclaim here. I don't understand the hate for this guy.

Hate? No. Just ascribing the correct value to him.

Take a look at the eFG%... crap

king4day
03-18-2013, 01:49 PM
He doesn't get attention simply because of the team he's on. If this was LA, NY, Miami, it would have been a ESPN headline.
I hope the Suns don't overpay for him next season but he'll help someone out.

JiffyMix88
03-18-2013, 01:50 PM
how do you get that out of that? Turner starts at 3 not 2

Sorry but even in this small ball world I don't see a line-up of Jru Monta and Turner getting the sixers anywhere. I mean there isn't that many balls and they're all playmakers but if you're just referring to the positions then yes you would be right.

JasonJohnHorn
03-18-2013, 02:09 PM
I don't think people hate the guy, I think that, as good as he is, he has certain limits to his game that prevents him from being a franchise player. He is certainly and All-Star.

For starers, there is his size. He is 6'3, which is great for a PG, but in the league today it does make him a little undersized for a SG. I mean, we saw how Iverson struggled on defense with his size when he played the SG position. Ellis has got 3 inches on Iverson, but even Wade, has one or two inches on Ellis. the thing is, we are talking about guys like Iverson and Wade who were able to play bigger guys. Those two are VERY rare talents. Ellis is not in their category, but he is an All-Star level player. The problem is, when you get into the playoffs and you are going up against guards like Kobe, Ray Allen, Harden, Wade, and Manu... these guys all have a couple of inches on Ellis.

Ellis has had some really impressive FG%'s in the past, especially 07/08, and he's always been well above .400, but he has dropped the last couple of seasons. His assist-to-turnover ration is about 2-1.... respectable.

The thing is, on his best night, he can play as well as almost anybody in the league, as he proved last night, but unlike a true franchise player, like KD or LBJ, he isn't able to put that kind of performance in night in and night out. Sure, everybody has a bad game now and then, but Ellis has a number of sub-par games, and then games where he plays to his full potential.

I think most people recognize his talents, but also his limits and so it is hard to get too excited about him. He can't carry a team on his back for a 7-game series like LBJ and Durant can, even if he can out-perform either of them on his best nights.

I don't think he could lead a team to a championship as the best player on the team. He' great, he's just not that great.


Ellis is 12th in the league in points per game right now, and the only SGs who have more points are: Kobe, Harden and Wade (Curry may be considered a SG by some, though it seems he plays most of his minutes at PG). So that is pretty impressive, but he's got a lower FG% than all of those guys and fewer rebounds, so essentially there are 3 SG who are clearly better than Ellis. that puts him no higher than 4rth best in the league, and when the other guys, like Wade and Kobe, have player like LBJ, Bosh, Howard and Gasol playing along side of them, we can see where this is going.

But even comparing him to Lillard (who granted, plays PG), we can see that the rookie is averaging almost as many points with high FG, FT and 3pt percentages. He gets more assists with less turnovers (which can be fairly expected since he is a PG), but almost as many rebounds as well. If Ellis can't even out perform a rookie guard in percentages and assist-to-turnover ratio...


Ellis is a top five SG, so obviously he is a great player, but how great is he. Nobody doubts that he is capable of extraordinary bursts of plays that can rival anybody in the league, they just don't that he can maintain a high level of play and against a high level of competition. But even Vernon Maxwell could have bursts like that (he scored 30 points in a single quarter once).

b@llhog24
03-18-2013, 02:18 PM
He'd be great off the bench as a spark plug. A team like Indiana, heck even the Blazers if we could get a good enough perimeter defender to relegate Matthews to the bench could really make use of his talents.

b@llhog24
03-18-2013, 02:21 PM
I don't think people hate the guy, I think that, as good as he is, he has certain limits to his game that prevents him from being a franchise player. He is certainly and All-Star.

For starers, there is his size. He is 6'3, which is great for a PG, but in the league today it does make him a little undersized for a SG. I mean, we saw how Iverson struggled on defense with his size when he played the SG position. Ellis has got 3 inches on Iverson, but even Wade, has one or two inches on Ellis. the thing is, we are talking about guys like Iverson and Wade who were able to play bigger guys. Those two are VERY rare talents. Ellis is not in their category, but he is an All-Star level player. The problem is, when you get into the playoffs and you are going up against guards like Kobe, Ray Allen, Harden, Wade, and Manu... these guys all have a couple of inches on Ellis.

Ellis has had some really impressive FG%'s in the past, especially 07/08, and he's always been well above .400, but he has dropped the last couple of seasons. His assist-to-turnover ration is about 2-1.... respectable.

The thing is, on his best night, he can play as well as almost anybody in the league, as he proved last night, but unlike a true franchise player, like KD or LBJ, he isn't able to put that kind of performance in night in and night out. Sure, everybody has a bad game now and then, but Ellis has a number of sub-par games, and then games where he plays to his full potential.

I think most people recognize his talents, but also his limits and so it is hard to get too excited about him. He can't carry a team on his back for a 7-game series like LBJ and Durant can, even if he can out-perform either of them on his best nights.

I don't think he could lead a team to a championship as the best player on the team. He' great, he's just not that great.


Ellis is 12th in the league in points per game right now, and the only SGs who have more points are: Kobe, Harden and Wade (Curry may be considered a SG by some, though it seems he plays most of his minutes at PG). So that is pretty impressive, but he's got a lower FG% than all of those guys and fewer rebounds, so essentially there are 3 SG who are clearly better than Ellis. that puts him no higher than 4rth best in the league, and when the other guys, like Wade and Kobe, have player like LBJ, Bosh, Howard and Gasol playing along side of them, we can see where this is going.

But even comparing him to Lillard (who granted, plays PG), we can see that the rookie is averaging almost as many points with high FG, FT and 3pt percentages. He gets more assists with less turnovers (which can be fairly expected since he is a PG), but almost as many rebounds as well. If Ellis can't even out perform a rookie guard in percentages and assist-to-turnover ratio...


Ellis is a top five SG, so obviously he is a great player, but how great is he. Nobody doubts that he is capable of extraordinary bursts of plays that can rival anybody in the league, they just don't that he can maintain a high level of play and against a high level of competition. But even Vernon Maxwell could have bursts like that (he scored 30 points in a single quarter once).

I'd rather have
Wade
Kobe
Manu
Harden
and VC over him. Probably a couple others as well. He's not a top 5 SG.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 02:37 PM
He's better suited as a 6th man. He's a chuker, a poor mans JR Smith

Kuya_Clive
03-18-2013, 02:44 PM
The only knock I have on him are his efficiency and lack of size. His shot selection isn't great but that could change with the right team.

SugeKnight
03-18-2013, 02:44 PM
He's better suited as a 6th man. He's a chuker, a poor mans JR Smith

lol

UPRock
03-18-2013, 03:37 PM
Dafuq? He's better than JR. Smith.

Jarvo
03-18-2013, 03:42 PM
He's better suited as a 6th man. He's a chuker, a poor mans JR Smith

He's wayyyyyyyyyyy better than JR

JiffyMix88
03-18-2013, 03:43 PM
Dafuq? He's better than JR. Smith.

lmao

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 03:45 PM
He's better but not by that much. Both are chuckers who take bad shots.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 03:46 PM
And how's he wayyyy better than JR when he's light years better than Ellis defensively?

Chronz
03-18-2013, 04:30 PM
About ducking time this chucker got hot

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 05:05 PM
You guys don't seem to realize JR Smith is the same exact player as Monta Ellis.

hugepatsfan
03-18-2013, 05:05 PM
Is it time to enter Monta into the GOAT discussions?

Run&Gun
03-18-2013, 05:19 PM
As a Warrior Fan, I still love Monta Ellis. Although I would agree with most people most of the time he's a pretty inefficient scorer that doesn't play defense most of the time. Kind of player that in order to strive he really needs to be in the right system with all the right players to be around him.

He was the best when he played with Baron Davis, because he didn't have to always create shots for himself and Davis could guard the 2's while Monta guards the PGs. Davis got him a lot of open shots and always found him cutting to the rim.

I have to say Monta doesn't get any respects from the Refs though, I see him driving to the rim a lot and drawing contact only to get at least a handful of no calls every night. Also think that if he were on a team where he wasn't the primary scorer he would be better because I've seen times when he plays really good defense not sure if it's because he's overworked on offense or if he just is too lazy or some combo of both.

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 05:23 PM
As a Warrior Fan, I still love Monta Ellis. Although I would agree with most people most of the time he's a pretty inefficient scorer that doesn't play defense most of the time. Kind of player that in order to strive he really needs to be in the right system with all the right players to be around him.

He was the best when he played with Baron Davis, because he didn't have to always create shots for himself and Davis could guard the 2's while Monta guards the PGs. Davis got him a lot of open shots and always found him cutting to the rim.

I have to say Monta doesn't get any respects from the Refs though, I see him driving to the rim a lot and drawing contact only to get at least a handful of no calls every night. Also think that if he were on a team where he wasn't the primary scorer he would be better because I've seen times when he plays really good defense not sure if it's because he's overworked on offense or if he just is too lazy or some combo of both.

Monta Ellis was on the Warriors with a 580 TS Curry and a 567 TS percentage of David. It's not that he didn't have help offensively, it's that he has a low basketball IQ and takes the most shots, not because he is the offenses primary option, but because he thinks he is as good Dwade.

RLundi
03-18-2013, 05:24 PM
And how's he wayyyy better than JR when he's light years better than Ellis defensively?

Lol no. Ellis is better than JR Smith, no matter how you try and slice it.

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 05:26 PM
Lol no. Ellis is better than JR Smith, no matter how you try and slice it.

JR Smith TS 500
Ellis's TS 489

D-Leethal
03-18-2013, 05:33 PM
Very impressive. 25 in the 4th is like a career performance. I don't think Monta ever gets appreciated until he becomes a 6th man for a contender, same way Jamal and JET were always dismissed as chuckers until that happened for them.

Chronz
03-18-2013, 06:12 PM
Very impressive. 25 in the 4th is like a career performance. I don't think Monta ever gets appreciated until he becomes a 6th man for a contender, same way Jamal and JET were always dismissed as chuckers until that happened for them.

Monta was in that role, he was praised for it, then he got tired of and insisted on being a heavily flawed franchise player instead of a brilliant team player.

Good comparisons tho, I see some similarities but Monta's time to find that team is running out. Unlike the other 2, hes more reliant on his athletic ability.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 06:18 PM
Lol no. Ellis is better than JR Smith, no matter how you try and slice it.

:facepalm:


JR Smith TS 500
Ellis's TS 489

JR and Monta are almost the exact same player. Ellis is asked to be the number one scoring option while JR is asked to be no. 2 or 3. JR has a better jump shot, drives it better and is wayyyy better defender. Stop it, although I'll admit Monta a better player, it's not by much at all!

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 06:19 PM
JR and Ellis might as well be clones.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 06:21 PM
JR and Ellis might as well be clones.

Monta just needs a "You want the pipe" tattoo across his forehead and he'll pass as JR

asandhu23
03-18-2013, 06:22 PM
Here we go again, Guppy. Will you ever let Monta have praise?

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 06:25 PM
Here we go again, Guppy. Will you ever let Monta have praise?

Chuckers occasionally get hot. I don't praise players for having a good stretch of games or even one game. There have been bad 40 point scorers and there have bad 20 PPG guy.

I have seen Monta go off as a Warrior too. It doesn't matter unless he can efficiently score consistently to offset his sixth worst defense in the league.

Jarvo
03-18-2013, 06:58 PM
And how's he wayyyy better than JR when he's light years better than Ellis defensively?

Bet that the knicks will trade JR for Monta in a heartbeat.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 07:02 PM
Bet that the knicks will trade JR for Monta in a heartbeat.

If he accepted a 6th man role sure but JR would be cheaper and you would get the same amount of production plus better production on the defensive end. Either way you slice it, Monta and JR aren't that far off, it's real close lol.

RLundi
03-18-2013, 07:38 PM
JR Smith TS 500
Ellis's TS 489

I stand corrected.

RLundi
03-18-2013, 07:41 PM
:facepalm:



JR and Monta are almost the exact same player. Ellis is asked to be the number one scoring option while JR is asked to be no. 2 or 3. JR has a better jump shot, drives it better and is wayyyy better defender. Stop it, although I'll admit Monta a better player, it's not by much at all!

So in one instance, you facepalm that I say Monta is better. Then in the VERY NEXT instance you also say Monta is better?

Oy vey, this is the future of our country, ladies and gentlemen.

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 07:45 PM
Yeah, the past was better when people hated blacks for being blacks and were misogynistic because women ain't as smart.

Cracka2HI!
03-18-2013, 07:45 PM
If he would play for the MLE come off the bench and we didn't have Jamal Crawford I'd like to see the Clippers give him a shot. I don't have much faith in him for anything above that kind of role and money.

Jimmer55
03-18-2013, 07:45 PM
Much respect to how Ellis has been playing as of late. He may very well be the PG if Jennings bolts. Ellis indeed "have it all."

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 07:56 PM
So in one instance, you facepalm that I say Monta is better. Then in the VERY NEXT instance you also say Monta is better?

Oy vey, this is the future of our country, ladies and gentlemen.

http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXeXXellismo01.html&t=4

http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXsXXsmithjr01.html&t=4

Look at the advanced stats. Jr has a better ts% and a better efg%... Back your facts up bud.

So here's another :facepalm: for your useless post!

Snapshot
03-18-2013, 08:09 PM
lol @ JR being better than Monta, its not even close, if anything this is the 1st year that its even a comparison since Monta fell off and is having his worst season.

JR could never shoot 45% from the field and avg 25ppg like Monta did a few years ago, and thats with the refs shittin on him and not giving him calls, cuz like someone else pointed out, the refs dont respect him...at all.

Had he gotten the same calls the Wade's, Melo's and KD's of the leaugue got back in the 10' season he couldve easily avg'd 27ppg on bout 47/48% from the field.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 08:13 PM
lol @ JR being better than Monta, its not even close, if anything this is the 1st year that its even a comparison since Monta fell off and is having his worst season.

JR could never shoot 45% from the field and avg 25ppg like Monta did a few years ago, and thats with the refs shittin on him and not giving him calls, cuz like someone else pointed out, the refs dont respect him...at all.

Had he gotten the same calls the Wade's, Melo's and KD's of the leaugue got back in the 10' season he couldve easily avg'd 27ppg on bout 47/48% from the field.

Was JR the number one scoring option like Monta? Look at the advanced stats bud!

bagwell368
03-18-2013, 08:26 PM
Ellis is a top five SG, so obviously he is a great player.

Your stuff is often really good, but can't go along with this.

Snapshot
03-18-2013, 08:32 PM
Was JR the number one scoring option like Monta? Look at the advanced stats bud!

Stop it fam, u wont win...for one, JR couldnt avg 25 even if he was a #1 opt, and if he did he would do so on 39% shootin and taking 28fga per game.

But forget the hypotheticals, since he was never a #1 opt, i'll compare him to when Monta was in his posiition as a 3rd opt...beast!

20ppg on incredibly efficient shooting...this bum JR is struggling and the opp's defense dont even gameplan for him lmao...sad.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 08:41 PM
Stop it fam, u wont win...for one, JR couldnt avg 25 even if he was a #1 opt, and if he did he would do so on 39% shootin and taking 28fga per game.

But forget the hypotheticals, since he was never a #1 opt, i'll compare him to when Monta was in his posiition as a 3rd opt...beast!

20ppg on incredibly efficient shooting...this bum JR is struggling and the opp's defense dont even gameplan for him lmao...sad.

No you stop it famz...

How do you know Jr can't average 25ppg being the no. 1 scoring option? I mean this season alone he's average over 23 ppg when Melo and Amare been injured.

Second JR has a better epg% so he's more effiecent than Ellis.

Ellis played for the sorry *** warriors and took 30 shots a game so that's why he managed 25 ppg. Give JR the same amount of attemp he can easily put up close to those numbers!

JasonJohnHorn
03-18-2013, 08:50 PM
Your stuff is often really good, but can't go along with this.

Thanks for the kind comment. I appreciate that you notice. lol

I should amend my statement. I should say: "There is an argument for putting Ellis as a top-5 shooting guard." I'm not sure that I would put him in my top five myself. But I concede that there is an argument that he is top-5. Depending on how you look at the stats. I mean, among shooting guards, I believe he has the highest assist-per game average, and he is top 4 scoring among SGs, so there is that, but obviously taking a look at advance stats and per36 minute averages and defensive impact, such an argument may not hold up.


I would say that right now even Ray Allen is a better player than Ellis, but Ray Allen is playing behind perhaps the best SG in the league (obviously Harden and Kobe are in the conversation), so he's not getting the minutes.

Ellis is a combo guard as he can handle the ball, though not as efficiently as some PGs, and he likes to score. So he would be ideal as a 6th man like Jason Terry. He'd be a great fit in Miami, or LAL.

I'd take Manu over Ellis for example, and obviously Wade Kobe and Harden (not in that order), so I wouldn't put Ellis in my top five, but I think it is fair for some to consider him top five.

You are right though.

Nats_vcu-Okc35
03-18-2013, 08:52 PM
He's definitely overachieved for a second round pick. He was the only option on GSW for a couple years, and has developed his game every year.

He is definitely no real 1st, nor even reliable 2nd option. His best years will most likely be as a 6th man unless he swindles a team into some contract where they are forced to make him a franchise or near franchise caliber player.

He is for sure a feast or famine player, but when he is on like he was the other night, he can be highly entertaining for sure.

I saw Portland mentioned in here previously, and if they could swing a deal, I could see him being a monster on a bench pretty bereft of talent.

KnickaBocka.44
03-18-2013, 09:00 PM
Lol what? I think he would be great with the right influence. If he was a spur for example I think he would greatly improve.

I dont think so. He is a chucker and doesnt have the kind of game that lasts in the NBA. His small stature doesnt allow him to use his body like other shooting guards, like Wade and Kobe, often do as their career progresses. As he ages and loses his quickness he will struggle mightily to be productive. And as many have mentioned, his size really hurts him when guarding opposing 2's.

RLundi
03-18-2013, 09:11 PM
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXeXXellismo01.html&t=4

http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXsXXsmithjr01.html&t=4

Look at the advanced stats. Jr has a better ts% and a better efg%... Back your facts up bud.

So here's another :facepalm: for your useless post!

I'm impressed you even know how to use advanced stats, what with you being a high school junior and all.

So which one is it? Because you clearly don't seem to have a stance. One second you're claiming JR is better, the next you admit that Monta is slightly better. Pick a side and stop waffling. Or are the advanced stats too complicated for you to comprehend?

Snapshot
03-18-2013, 09:15 PM
No you stop it famz...

How do you know Jr can't average 25ppg being the no. 1 scoring option? I mean this season alone he's average over 23 ppg when Melo and Amare been injured.

Second JR has a better epg% so he's more effiecent than Ellis.

Ellis played for the sorry *** warriors and took 30 shots a game so that's why he managed 25 ppg. Give JR the same amount of attemp he can easily put up close to those numbers!

Its either ur not a good reader, or you read whats convenient u for u to read. I clearly said that I will compare them both as #3 options that the defense doesnt care, nor gameplan for, and in that role, Monta flourished way more than JR has.

Offensively, Monta is a better post up player than him (and he's only 6'3, JR shud be ashamed), mid range shooter, and slasher...and better in transition as well. The only thing JR does is shoot the 3 better.

JR is too one dimensional offensively to avg 25 during the course of a season, and if he did, it would be on
atrocious shooting.

Dont u ever in life, compare a 12ppg 42%fg career player, to a 19ppg 46%fg career player ever again...its a reason JR has always been a 6th man for his entire career, and Monta has been a starter, even tho he's undersized for his positon and cant even play the pg spot productively....end convo.

Guppyfighter
03-18-2013, 10:15 PM
Thanks for the kind comment. I appreciate that you notice. lol

I should amend my statement. I should say: "There is an argument for putting Ellis as a top-5 shooting guard." I'm not sure that I would put him in my top five myself. But I concede that there is an argument that he is top-5. Depending on how you look at the stats. I mean, among shooting guards, I believe he has the highest assist-per game average, and he is top 4 scoring among SGs, so there is that, but obviously taking a look at advance stats and per36 minute averages and defensive impact, such an argument may not hold up.


I would say that right now even Ray Allen is a better player than Ellis, but Ray Allen is playing behind perhaps the best SG in the league (obviously Harden and Kobe are in the conversation), so he's not getting the minutes.

Ellis is a combo guard as he can handle the ball, though not as efficiently as some PGs, and he likes to score. So he would be ideal as a 6th man like Jason Terry. He'd be a great fit in Miami, or LAL.

I'd take Manu over Ellis for example, and obviously Wade Kobe and Harden (not in that order), so I wouldn't put Ellis in my top five, but I think it is fair for some to consider him top five.

You are right though.

The top five argument only works if you ignore everything we know about statistics and reject is as a methodology.

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 10:51 PM
I'm impressed you even know how to use advanced stats, what with you being a high school junior and all.

So which one is it? Because you clearly don't seem to have a stance. One second you're claiming JR is better, the next you admit that Monta is slightly better. Pick a side and stop waffling. Or are the advanced stats too complicated for you to comprehend?

High school junior? what a way to be a orginal. Did u think of that all by yourself kid? anyway You claimed Monta is way better than JR which is laughable. Monta is a better player but very slightly. Now back up your stance but then again it might be hard for u. Have a nice day kid!

GiantsSwaGG
03-18-2013, 10:53 PM
Its either ur not a good reader, or you read whats convenient u for u to read. I clearly said that I will compare them both as #3 options that the defense doesnt care, nor gameplan for, and in that role, Monta flourished way more than JR has.

Offensively, Monta is a better post up player than him (and he's only 6'3, JR shud be ashamed), mid range shooter, and slasher...and better in transition as well. The only thing JR does is shoot the 3 better.

JR is too one dimensional offensively to avg 25 during the course of a season, and if he did, it would be on
atrocious shooting.

Dont u ever in life, compare a 12ppg 42%fg career player, to a 19ppg 46%fg career player ever again...its a reason JR has always been a 6th man for his entire career, and Monta has been a starter, even tho he's undersized for his positon and cant even play the pg spot productively....end convo.

This is where I stop cause you obviously don't know what you're talking about!

RLundi
03-18-2013, 11:39 PM
High school junior? what a way to be a orginal. Did u think of that all by yourself kid? anyway You claimed Monta is way better than JR which is laughable. Monta is a better player but very slightly. Now back up your stance but then again it might be hard for u. Have a nice day kid!

You're known for being an unintelligent troll and baiter, yet I'm the kid? I think you suffer from self-loathing: completely understandable.

Feel free to thumb through my posts in this thread when you're not in Algebra 2; I simply said that Monta is better, not "much" better as you claim (reading comprehension: needs much work). Then, once I reviewed the numbers, I had no problem admitting I was incorrect. You've done nothing but contradict yourself, which is completely expected, as you rarely bring anything substantial to any argument besides "kid" and "hater." Oh, and let's not forget the frequent :facepalm: you submit every other post.

ROY 2 MVP Braun
03-19-2013, 12:02 AM
:facepalm:



JR and Monta are almost the exact same player. Ellis is asked to be the number one scoring option while JR is asked to be no. 2 or 3. JR has a better jump shot, drives it better and is wayyyy better defender. Stop it, although I'll admit Monta a better player, it's not by much at all!

well if hes better at shooting and at defense how is ellis the better player? lmao

RollingWave
03-19-2013, 12:03 AM
Ellis is a super high variance guy, when he's doing well, he's like an all star, even super star , but too often he shoots the team out of games. his 3P% is HORRIFIC as a whole, it's under .30 % , average NBA hit around 35% . very few guys in the NBA who takes a lot of shots are not at least 32-33% ish.

lol, please
03-19-2013, 12:45 AM
Monta should come to the Warriors.




























:dance:

odiz
03-19-2013, 01:30 AM
People dont seem to realize that he averaged 20PPG on 53% shooting a few years ago with the Warriors. That was when he knew he wasnt a 3 point shooter. For some reason hes decided he will shoot 4 or 5 a game now. Put him on a team with a few good outside shooters at PG and SF and get him to stop chucking 3s and he can be a really good, efficient player again.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 02:28 AM
People dont seem to realize that he averaged 20PPG on 53% shooting a few years ago with the Warriors. That was when he knew he wasnt a 3 point shooter. For some reason hes decided he will shoot 4 or 5 a game now. Put him on a team with a few good outside shooters at PG and SF and get him to stop chucking 3s and he can be a really good, efficient player again.

Uh, he had a ton of legitimate outside shooters when he was on the Warriors and we sucked. Having Curry didn't defer him from taking threes.

Ellis will forever be god awful because he is the third worst defender in the league and he isn't smart. High turnover rate and such.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 02:30 AM
Monta should come to the Warriors.




























:dance:


Yeah, if Klay wasn't better and Curry didn't worse with Monta on the floor. In fact, if the entire team didn't worse with Monta on the floor I'd agree. ****, if his true shooting percentage wasn't horrible and his defense isn't basically four on five.

GiantsSwaGG
03-19-2013, 03:01 AM
well if hes better at shooting and at defense how is ellis the better player? lmao

Why is Dwayne Wade better than Kobe when Kobe is the better shooter and defender? You figure it out!

asandhu23
03-19-2013, 03:06 AM
Chuckers occasionally get hot. I don't praise players for having a good stretch of games or even one game. There have been bad 40 point scorers and there have bad 20 PPG guy.

I have seen Monta go off as a Warrior too. It doesn't matter unless he can efficiently score consistently to offset his sixth worst defense in the league.

Doesn't matter, dude. you are obsessed with dissing Monta at every opportunity you get. You even create opportunities in threads which have nothing to do with him.

Run&Gun
03-19-2013, 03:06 AM
Uh, he had a ton of legitimate outside shooters when he was on the Warriors and we sucked. Having Curry didn't defer him from taking threes.

Ellis will forever be god awful because he is the third worst defender in the league and he isn't smart. High turnover rate and such.

Guppyfighter are you really Matt Steinmetz haha So negative, as the people who are responding are warriors fan, we all knew the whole Monta and Curry thing wouldn't really work to win games. It's not like we didn't see that Monta had a high Assist/TO ratio and never was the most efficient scorer in the world, but he was entertaining.

To address your post we were pretty good in 2007 when Monta I think had his best year, we were 48-34 probably a better record than we'll have this year, Monta had a TS% of 58% and he had 9 win shares. Point is he CAN be effective, but needs the exact right situation granted finding another 2007 warrior team that could open the floor and have the PG guard the 2's prob. isn't going to happen.

asandhu23
03-19-2013, 03:11 AM
No you stop it famz...

How do you know Jr can't average 25ppg being the no. 1 scoring option? I mean this season alone he's average over 23 ppg when Melo and Amare been injured.

Second JR has a better epg% so he's more effiecent than Ellis.

Ellis played for the sorry *** warriors and took 30 shots a game so that's why he managed 25 ppg. Give JR the same amount of attemp he can easily put up close to those numbers!

that's gross exaggeration. the closest he came to 30 shots per game was in 2009-2010 ( 22 shots a game ) which was a year in which Warriors just tanked.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 03:12 AM
Guppyfighter are you really Matt Steinmetz haha So negative, as the people who are responding are warriors fan, we all knew the whole Monta and Curry thing wouldn't really work to win games. It's not like we didn't see that Monta had a high Assist/TO ratio and never was the most efficient scorer in the world, but he was entertaining.

To address your post we were pretty good in 2007 when Monta I think had his best year, we were 48-34 probably a better record than we'll have this year, Monta had a TS% of 58% and he had 9 win shares. Point is he CAN be effective, but needs the exact right situation granted finding another 2007 warrior team that could open the floor and have the PG guard the 2's prob. isn't going to happen.

Hasn't been the same since the moped. It's not the roster, it's the moped.

asandhu23
03-19-2013, 03:12 AM
Guppyfighter are you really Matt Steinmetz haha So negative, as the people who are responding are warriors fan, we all knew the whole Monta and Curry thing wouldn't really work to win games. It's not like we didn't see that Monta had a high Assist/TO ratio and never was the most efficient scorer in the world, but he was entertaining.

To address your post we were pretty good in 2007 when Monta I think had his best year, we were 48-34 probably a better record than we'll have this year, Monta had a TS% of 58% and he had 9 win shares. Point is he CAN be effective, but needs the exact right situation granted finding another 2007 warrior team that could open the floor and have the PG guard the 2's prob. isn't going to happen.


Matt Steinmetz? he's never been negative. you are thinking of Tim Kawakami. Negative report this, negative report that.

asandhu23
03-19-2013, 03:13 AM
Hasn't been the same since the moped. It's not the roster, it's the moped.

Ah, so that's why you hate him. Still haven't gotten over the moped incident. :pity: Its an event of the past, dude.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 03:15 AM
Ah, so that's why you hate him. Still haven't gotten over the moped incident. :pity: Its an event of the past, dude.

I like Monta. I just don't think he's a good basketball player. He used to be though and that's frustrating as is Beans is frustrating.

asandhu23
03-19-2013, 03:19 AM
I like Monta. I just don't think he's a good basketball player. He used to be though and that's frustrating as is Beans is frustrating.

1. ********! I have never seen you post anything post anything positive about him. You are still stuck on the mopedgate day. That **** is irrelevant now just like how he is irrelevant to the Warriors now.

2. Really? Monta is as frustrating as Biedrins? Have you forgotten how good he was and then he just lost his confidence?

Went from 10 - 10 and 60+ percent fg player to virtual non existence.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 03:22 AM
1. ********! I have never seen you post anything post anything positive about him. You are still stuck on the mopedgate day. That **** is irrelevant now just like how he is irrelevant to the Warriors now.

2. Really? Monta is as frustrating as Biedrins? Have you forgotten how good he was and then he just lost his confidence?

Went from 10 - 10 and 60+ percent fg player to virtual non existence.

Beans is more frustrating because he is on the team still.

MackShock
03-19-2013, 03:47 AM
Guppy really doesn't like Monta. He's been trying to discredit him since 2pm. Even if the Bucks win the championship, and is finals MVP, he will say Monta doesn't deserve praise because he is a "negative" player and doesnt help his team win.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 03:47 AM
Guppy really doesn't like Monta. He's been trying to discredit him since 2pm. Even if the Bucks win the championship, and is finals MVP, he will say Monta doesn't deserve praise because he is a "negative" player and doesnt help his team win.

Only if he is a negative player on that stretch I would.

MackShock
03-19-2013, 03:52 AM
negative or not, does he not deserve praise for winning the championship?

so since he's negative, he did not contribute .0000001 of a percent and hence, doesn't deserve a ring?

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 03:52 AM
negative or not, does he not deserve praise for winning the championship?

so since he's negative, he did not contribute .0000001 of a percent?

Robert Horry - GOAT

MackShock
03-19-2013, 03:57 AM
Sucker. Youre too fake. Don't act like a smartass then duck my question.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 04:02 AM
Sucker. Youre too fake. Don't act like a smartass then duck my question.

I don't even understand the question. It makes no sense.

asandhu23
03-19-2013, 04:03 AM
Such a wannabe statistician.

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 04:05 AM
Such a wannabe statistician.

Lawl I never heard that one before.

RollingWave
03-19-2013, 04:11 AM
People dont seem to realize that he averaged 20PPG on 53% shooting a few years ago with the Warriors. That was when he knew he wasnt a 3 point shooter. For some reason hes decided he will shoot 4 or 5 a game now. Put him on a team with a few good outside shooters at PG and SF and get him to stop chucking 3s and he can be a really good, efficient player again.

The Bucks don't have outside shooters ? :eyebrow:

MackShock
03-19-2013, 04:12 AM
try adding up how bad you suck

Guppyfighter
03-19-2013, 04:14 AM
try adding up how bad you suck

You think it matters how I would feel in a hypothetical world if the Bucks win a championship.

MackShock
03-19-2013, 04:20 AM
You think it matters how I would feel in a hypothetical world if the Bucks win a championship.

nothing matters..not even the warriors winning a ship

odiz
03-19-2013, 04:28 AM
The Bucks don't have outside shooters ? :eyebrow:

"and get him to stop chucking 3s" was what i was trying to emphasize.

Jarvo
03-19-2013, 12:05 PM
Let Monta go to the Spurs, Philly *if Bynum ever plays* OKC *Yes OKC* or even the Pacers a place where he wont have to throw up aon many shots he will be better.

NYJ - NYY
03-19-2013, 02:26 PM
Its either ur not a good reader, or you read whats convenient u for u to read. I clearly said that I will compare them both as #3 options that the defense doesnt care, nor gameplan for, and in that role, Monta flourished way more than JR has.

Offensively, Monta is a better post up player than him (and he's only 6'3, JR shud be ashamed), mid range shooter, and slasher...and better in transition as well. The only thing JR does is shoot the 3 better.

JR is too one dimensional offensively to avg 25 during the course of a season, and if he did, it would be on
atrocious shooting.

Dont u ever in life, compare a 12ppg 42%fg career player, to a 19ppg 46%fg career player ever again...its a reason JR has always been a 6th man for his entire career, and Monta has been a starter, even tho he's undersized for his positon and cant even play the pg spot productively....end convo.


worst case of online tough guy syndrome ive seen in a while... youre a clown

NoahH
03-19-2013, 03:20 PM
Chucker

GiantsSwaGG
03-19-2013, 03:21 PM
worst case of online tough guy syndrome ive seen in a while... youre a clown

Don't even bother, he thinks talking street gives him street cred

ROY 2 MVP Braun
03-19-2013, 05:09 PM
Why is Dwayne Wade better than Kobe when Kobe is the better shooter and defender? You figure it out!

HES NOT!!! LMAO you got a plastic bag over your head? because your gasping

blastmasta26
03-19-2013, 06:13 PM
That expression makes no sense. He's gasping? I think you mean grasping, in which case your whole plastic bag line doesn't work.

blastmasta26
03-19-2013, 06:13 PM
double post.

GiantsSwaGG
03-19-2013, 06:18 PM
HES NOT!!! LMAO you got a plastic bag over your head? because your gasping

:facepalm:

And another :facepalm: for thinking Wade isn't better than Kobe. He's been better for the longest!

lol, please
03-19-2013, 11:03 PM
That expression makes no sense. He's gasping? I think you mean grasping, in which case your whole plastic bag line doesn't work.

Why doesn't it? Maybe you just don't get it. If he is trying really hard at something he could be hypothetically short of breath, or gasping. If you have a plastic bag over your head you would also be gasping for air. It works. I got it with no problem.

If anything you look silly trying to slight him about something that made sense.

IndyRealist
03-20-2013, 12:43 AM
For every 13-22 game, he has a 4-12 or 5-20 game to mess up any chance that he might be considered good. Just two games ago he went 3-11. Ellis is only a career 46% FG and 31.5% 3pt shooter, and this season he's actually worse by a far margin (42% and 25.8%).

He does ONE thing, which is score. And that's at a pretty pedestrian rate. It's easy to be impressed by any player if you only look at 2-3 good games and none of their bad ones.

el hidalgo
03-20-2013, 12:47 AM
For every 13-22 game, he has a 4-12 or 5-20 game to mess up any chance that he might be considered good. Just two games ago he went 3-11. Ellis is only a career 46% FG and 31.5% 3pt shooter, and this season he's actually worse by a far margin (42% and 25.8%).

He does ONE thing, which is score. And that's at a pretty pedestrian rate. It's easy to be impressed by any player if you only look at 2-3 good games and none of their bad ones.

funny, that's pretty much on par with kobe, but you don't see people bashing him like they do to monta

Guppyfighter
03-20-2013, 12:48 AM
funny, that's pretty much on par with kobe, but you don't see people bashing him like they do to monta

That's because of advanced stats. We know Kobe is an efficient scorer.

asandhu23
03-20-2013, 03:15 AM
Guppy and his obsession with Monta.

Guppyfighter
03-20-2013, 03:20 AM
There is no obsession with it. Other people bring it up and I discuss it. You literally accused me of being obsessive when I responded to someone who put my name in a post and talked about Monta.

You know how asinine you are with this. Instead of actually defending monta and proving he is a good player, you'd rather complain about people talking about him. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance. You like Monta and advanced stats don't. So you either have to not like monta or advanced stats and you chose Monta. There is no defense for Monta. And now that you made this subconscious choice you act defensive because if you don't you can't rationalize liking Monta.

asandhu23
03-20-2013, 03:57 AM
:laugh2:

Guppyfighter
03-20-2013, 04:03 AM
It's pretty amazing that you can have 20+ posts involving Monta and not one actually saying why you think he is a good player or any kind of objective analysis. In fact, all 20 posts where referring to how you think I hate Monta while trying to deter any kind of discussion involving him as a player.

It's down right disconcerting how petty that it is, especially on a forum to discuss ideas.

RollingWave
03-20-2013, 04:28 AM
Kobe: well Kobe's career line is at least a little bit better, and what's more is that he does it at a higher volume and more importantly, he draws a lot more fouls and make his FT at a better rate, I guess you COULD argue that there is the Lakers bonus there on the foul call of course ;)

Also, Kobe's bigger and can defend better... at least he can grab more rebounds.

Kobe and Monta is the same TYPE of player, a type that tend to get more credit than they should from the casual fans, but Kobe's clearly the best of this type of player. while Monta is not.

Monta Ellis's best comparable player is probably Jerry Stackhouse.

Mcdoh
03-20-2013, 01:15 PM
wolves dont want monta.. so no love for monta.. :p

ROY 2 MVP Braun
03-20-2013, 07:00 PM
Why doesn't it? Maybe you just don't get it. If he is trying really hard at something he could be hypothetically short of breath, or gasping. If you have a plastic bag over your head you would also be gasping for air. It works. I got it with no problem.

If anything you look silly trying to slight him about something that made sense.

thank you very much didnt think it was that hard to understand...

DumDum
03-21-2013, 05:01 AM
Laker fans talking about chucking o the irony it tickles me so

DumDum
04-18-2013, 03:51 AM
:mad::eyebrow::speechless::cheers::horse::bla::wor thy::k::sleep::cricket::laugh2::dance2::injury::ch eer::shrug::drunk::ouch::moon::bs::burn::crying::p hew::catfight::lift:

CityofChaos
04-18-2013, 04:47 AM
Dudes a helluva scorer....not much else. Bucks should be happy if/when he walks.

lol, please
04-18-2013, 01:24 PM
Laker fans talking about chucking o the irony it tickles me so
:laugh2:

Dudes a helluva scorer....not much else. Bucks should be happy if/when he walks.
Top 10 PG easily.

Guppyfighter
04-18-2013, 01:54 PM
:laugh2:

Top 10 PG easily.

Sorry Philly, this is wrong. It's not even a little wrong. It's a lot wrong. It's not just a lot, it's a lot, lot. You know what I am saying. It's not a lot, it's a lot, lot.

Lord Leoshes
04-18-2013, 04:01 PM
1st game - 9ppg - 5to - 1blk - 1stl - 4ast - 1reb - 4/16fgm/a +/- = -10
2nd game - 14ppg - 1to - 0blk - 5stl - 9ast - 3reb - 6/18fgm/a +/- = +7
3rd game - 7ppg - 2to - 0blk - 2stl - 7ast - 3reb - 3/11fgm/a +/- = -8
4th game- 8ppg - 6to - 0blk - 4stl - 2ast - 4reb - 3/8fgm/a +/- = -9

These are the stats of Monta Ellis 4 games against the Heat.
If the Bucks don't wish to get sweeped then Monta needs to step up, & stop letting Wade outplay him so badly.

Lord Leoshes
04-18-2013, 04:17 PM
Why is Dwayne Wade better than Kobe when Kobe is the better shooter and defender? You figure it out!

:crazy:

Kobe can not defend his own shadow anymore. Wade is 10 times the defender Kobe is.

asandhu23
04-18-2013, 04:20 PM
:crazy:

Kobe can not defend his own shadow anymore. Wade is 10 times the defender Kobe is.

To be fair, his shadow is pretty good.

asandhu23
04-18-2013, 04:21 PM
Sorry Philly, this is wrong. It's not even a little wrong. It's a lot wrong. It's not just a lot, it's a lot, lot. You know what I am saying. It's not a lot, it's a lot, lot.


Hello again, Guppy. I see you are in here again.

Lord Leoshes
04-18-2013, 04:30 PM
To be fair, his shadow is pretty good.

I don't know about that cause his shadow is siting in a wheelchair shadow. :ouch:

Guppyfighter
04-18-2013, 05:17 PM
Hello again, Guppy. I see you are in here again.

Stop posting in threads if you don't have arguments.

asandhu23
04-18-2013, 05:39 PM
Stop posting in threads if you don't have arguments.

oh noes. :hide:

TrueFan420
04-18-2013, 11:38 PM
1st game - 9ppg - 5to - 1blk - 1stl - 4ast - 1reb - 4/16fgm/a +/- = -10
2nd game - 14ppg - 1to - 0blk - 5stl - 9ast - 3reb - 6/18fgm/a +/- = +7
3rd game - 7ppg - 2to - 0blk - 2stl - 7ast - 3reb - 3/11fgm/a +/- = -8
4th game- 8ppg - 6to - 0blk - 4stl - 2ast - 4reb - 3/8fgm/a +/- = -9

These are the stats of Monta Ellis 4 games against the Heat.
If the Bucks don't wish to get sweeped then Monta needs to step up, & stop letting Wade outplay him so badly.
Ellis stat line will look far better than that. Might not be efficient but dude doesn't shy from the big moment.

SportsFanatic10
04-18-2013, 11:43 PM
monta ellis have it all...

Guppyfighter
04-18-2013, 11:45 PM
1st game - 9ppg - 5to - 1blk - 1stl - 4ast - 1reb - 4/16fgm/a +/- = -10
2nd game - 14ppg - 1to - 0blk - 5stl - 9ast - 3reb - 6/18fgm/a +/- = +7
3rd game - 7ppg - 2to - 0blk - 2stl - 7ast - 3reb - 3/11fgm/a +/- = -8
4th game- 8ppg - 6to - 0blk - 4stl - 2ast - 4reb - 3/8fgm/a +/- = -9

These are the stats of Monta Ellis 4 games against the Heat.
If the Bucks don't wish to get sweeped then Monta needs to step up, & stop letting Wade outplay him so badly.

Take your fancy facts somewhere else. We don't need your fancy context and facts. That **** is unneeded here.

lol, please
04-19-2013, 12:58 AM
Take your fancy facts somewhere else. We don't need your fancy context and facts. That **** is unneeded here.

DoMeFavors is that you?


stats are key.

Guppyfighter
04-19-2013, 01:17 AM
DoMeFavors is that you?


stats are key.

Reread.

lol, please
04-19-2013, 02:07 AM
Reread.

lol. Sorry.

Ebbs
04-19-2013, 02:20 AM
He's extremely underrated by stat junkies. Creating offense is yet to be a measured statistic

lol, please
04-19-2013, 02:22 AM
He's extremely underrated by stat junkies. Creating offense is yet to be a measured statistic

:clap:

Guppyfighter
04-19-2013, 02:23 AM
He's extremely underrated by stat junkies. Creating offense is yet to be a measured statistic

You are right. I am sure the Bucks prefer being worse on offense while he is on the floor compared to scoring more points while he is off.

It is measured and he is rather poor at it. Being able to create a shot and make a shot are two different things.

There are guys like Harden and Melo who actually create offense and than there are guys like Ellis who make offenses worse.

el hidalgo
04-19-2013, 04:40 AM
You are right. I am sure the Bucks prefer being worse on offense while he is on the floor compared to scoring more points while he is off.

It is measured and he is rather poor at it. Being able to create a shot and make a shot are two different things.

There are guys like Harden and Melo who actually create offense and than there are guys like Ellis who make offenses worse.

melo and kobe are rather poor at creating offense

ewmania
04-19-2013, 04:57 AM
I want Monta on The Spurs so damn bad!

ellis on the spurs with the IQ of pop

god help us all... I literally wouldn't want him anywhere near greg or duncan lol for the sake of being a knicks fan

ewmania
04-19-2013, 04:58 AM
melo and kobe are rather poor at creating offense

..... ? either your trolling or you don't like basketball

GiantsSwaGG
04-19-2013, 07:27 AM
I don't know about that cause his shadow is siting in a wheelchair shadow. :ouch:

:facepalm:

bagwell368
04-19-2013, 07:39 AM
He's extremely underrated by stat junkies. Creating offense is yet to be a measured statistic

Stat junkies? He shoots too much, doesn't pass enough, is poor defensively. He doesn't make anyone around him better - that's from a fan/coach of team basketball.

His skill set appeals the ESPN crew that likes dunks and 3's and scoring chumps (sorry Champs). He sucks, and he's overpaid.