PDA

View Full Version : ESPN: OK Memphis, you have our attention



Chronz
03-15-2013, 02:52 PM
I thought Memphis made a lateral move (in the present) when they made the trade, I thought it was an obvious salary dump of a player with an overrated skillset. But how many people predicted their offense would actually improve once they jettisoned their leading scorer?


http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130314/nba-memphis-grizzlies-better-rudy-gay

OK, Memphis. You have our attention.

The Gay trade may have been driven by Memphis' bloated books ahead of a more punitive tax structure in 2013-14, but make no mistake about it: This was very much a basketball trade. In wake of the deal, the Grizzlies have won 14 of their past 15 games and now have ownership of the No. 3 seed in the West.

How have they done it?

Think of the deal as an overdue detox for Memphis. Gay no longer had any business being the go-to scorer on this Grizzlies team.

By sending Gay and his woefully inefficient play packing, the Grizzlies saw an opportunity to put the ball in better hands. Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph and Mike Conley can score, but oftentimes they were shut out as Gay flung up errant jumper after errant jumper. (Sorry, Toronto fans.)

The cleansing has yielded a much healthier offense without Gay, scoring 105.3 points per 100 trips down the floor since the trade. That's up from a pre-trade rating of 100.1 points per 100 possessions, which was 22nd in the NBA at the time.

For basketball traditionalists, this might not make a lick of sense. How could a team improve its offense by trading away its best scorer? Well, because points per game shouldn't be the measuring stick for best scorer, much in the same way batting average is ill-fitted to be the standalone rubric for batting proficiency in baseball. The truth is that Gay's 17.0 points per game scoring average told us more about his ability to take shots, not his ability to make them.

All in all, the Grizzlies haven't sweated Gay's departure. Much of that fact is because of their soft schedule since the trade, having played only five winning teams since the beginning of February. But after thumping the Clippers on Wednesday and hanging on until the final minute against the merciless steamroller that is the Miami Heat, the Grizzlies have shown that they're not merely bludgeoning weaker opponents these days.

It's easy to point to the newcomer in the trade, Tayshaun Prince, as the catalyst to the rise of the new-look Griz. But the reality is that Gay's departure promoted Gasol from a supporting cast member to a lead role -- and deservedly so. Since the trade, Gasol has averaged 15.8 points, 8.2 rebounds and, most important, 4.8 assists while shooting more shots at a better efficiency. The signature high-low offense with him and Randolph has rarely looked better, as noted by our own Kevin Arnovitz in his dispatch from Wednesday.

ManRam
03-15-2013, 02:54 PM
Glad it hasn't become controversial at all any more. That trade was a blessing for Memphis.

2-ONE-5
03-15-2013, 02:58 PM
maybe people will come to realize Hollinger knows what he is doing...

SteBO
03-15-2013, 03:04 PM
I, for one, am not shocked. I wonder if anyone's taken a gander at Rudy Gay's shooting percentages since the trade, and you just might see why Memphis stuggled so much offensively sometimes. Memphis is just much better suited running their offense through Z-Bo and Marc Gasol. That was evident a couple years ago when they took OKC to seven games in the postseason.....

Chronz
03-15-2013, 03:14 PM
Glad it hasn't become controversial at all any more. That trade was a blessing for Memphis.

I was thinking the same thing, I thought they would take heat for a year or so before people understood why it was made but their immediate success has definitely quieted alot of critics. I wish more teams made more of these trades, it seems like alot of inefficient chuckers make their teams worse (Beasley, WTF was PHX thinking BTW).

I hope the days of guys like Antoine Walker being considered "All-Stars" and teams valuing diverse scoring without efficiency, are finally done.

ManRam
03-15-2013, 03:14 PM
I, for one, am not shocked. I wonder if anyone's taken a gander at Rudy Gay's shooting percentages since the trade, and you just might see why Memphis stuggled so much offensively sometimes. Memphis is just much better suited running their offense through Z-Bo and Marc Gasol. That was evident a couple years ago when they took OKC to seven games in the postseason.....

It was polarizing, but a lot of people expected this. A lot expected the opposite. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?800043-Official-Rudy-Gay-to-Raptors-Calderon-to-Pistons-Daye-Prince-Davis-to-Grizzlies


Things could change, but one thing was for certain, and that was Rudy Gay's value, considering how inept his scoring efficiency was, was incredibly low to the Grizzlies.

Remember when their coach and players were pouting. That's why their jobs are to coach and play, respectively, and let the FO do what they need.

I said that Hollinger probably was doing backflips at the time. If he was, it certainly looks like he was right in his convictions.

ManRam
03-15-2013, 03:19 PM
I was thinking the same thing, I thought they would take heat for a year or so before people understood why it was made but their immediate success has definitely quieted alot of critics. I wish more teams made more of these trades, it seems like alot of inefficient chuckers make their teams worse (Beasley, WTF was PHX thinking BTW).

I hope the days of guys like Antoine Walker being considered "All-Stars" and teams valuing diverse scoring without efficiency, are finally done.

Yeah, unfortunately it seems like most Toronto fans are realizing this. I hoped Gay would prove me wrong for their sake, but that's not the case. Early on when they were winning, including a few big shots from him, they were winning in spite of his terrible play.

I do hope this helps people realize how much efficiency matters, and how these types of players, like 'Toine and Gay, really aren't what they're hyped up to be. Gay wasn't always THIS bad, but this season, he hadn't ever played like a top 50 player in the league.


Like I said at the time of the trade, I don't get why people though this guy was worth anything, especially with his contract.


This isn't a great stat, for guy like Gay who is really only relied on to score it might be.

Out of 136 qualified players, 128 players score more points per shot. Gay scors 1.05 points for shot he takes. Only Sheed, Waiters, Beasley, Felton, Ronnie Brewer, Seraphin and Hibbert trail him.



It still has been a small sample size, and maybe Memphis falls apart, but the people who thought they couldn't survive without his scoring...well...I never understood that.

JiffyMix88
03-15-2013, 03:26 PM
Great trade for the Grizz. Prince will take better shots and play great defense. I think they were also trying to make room so they can put the ball more in Marc and Zach's hands.

I was right of course

mightybosstone
03-15-2013, 03:30 PM
I thought it was a great deal for Memphis at the time and I still do. Rudy Gay had no business taking that many shots on a team with Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol, and I'm not surprised the team is better without him. Everyone remembers how much better they were two postseasons ago when Gay was hurt, and that wasn't an anomaly. That was Memphis at its best.

Memphis has played so well as of late, that I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow won the Western Conference. Their defensive toughness and offensive versatility makes them tough for most teams to match up with.

tp13baby
03-15-2013, 03:40 PM
Hollinger just proves stats are everything. I like the trade for Memphis. Hollinger knows what he is doing.

Hawkeye15
03-15-2013, 03:41 PM
It was wrong to expect that when they removed the player taking 18 shots a game at a very inefficient rate, and you gave those shots to players who are far more efficient, their offense would improve? I kept being told you "need" a shot creator, or the offense will fail. No, you get rid of a chucker, and your offense improves if you distribute those shot attempts to much more efficient players...

Hellcrooner
03-15-2013, 03:47 PM
I thought Memphis made a lateral move (in the present) when they made the trade, I thought it was an obvious salary dump of a player with an overrated skillset. But how many people predicted their offense would actually improve once they jettisoned their leading scorer?


http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130314/nba-memphis-grizzlies-better-rudy-gay

Me.
I predicted it.
Teams can only have one self absorbed player if they want to be succesfull.
Two or more are a problem.

So, now they only have 1 and are good to go.

JiffyMix88
03-15-2013, 03:47 PM
Hollinger just proves stats are everything. I like the trade for Memphis. Hollinger knows what he is doing.

I disagree. Stats can help an arguement but all you really have to do is just WATCH a game. Anybody who watches Z-Bo and Marc Gasol do work down low knows they need to see the ball more in the post then trying to chase down Rudy Gay's bricks to get their points.

I love Rudy Gay too but it's true that team didn't need him

Sadds The Gr8
03-15-2013, 03:53 PM
I said Memphis won this deal right when it happened. The only thing that worries me is ZBO's scoring. If he can get to where he was in 2011 this team will be dangerous

Hawkeye15
03-15-2013, 03:56 PM
I disagree. Stats can help an arguement but all you really have to do is just WATCH a game. Anybody who watches Z-Bo and Marc Gasol do work down low knows they need to see the ball more in the post then trying to chase down Rudy Gay's bricks to get their points.

I love Rudy Gay too but it's true that team didn't need him

Hollinger watched more games than 99% of us while writing for espn.

Blitzbolt
03-15-2013, 04:02 PM
Nothing Sexy nothing pretty the Clippers have Stars Denver Runs and Scores the Grizzlies play Defense and PWN it with the the BIGS.

Alot of fans say They don't have Rudy to brick the last shot ect...But they miss the point Gasol and Prince are SUPER smart they always pick the right play at the end of games they pass the ball and hit the open player or take the shot if they are open which is why we are better on offense after the trade.

And Ed Davis is another Weapon to play smaller PFs that also has help us alot something we never had with Speights who was very slow on defense like ZBO.

tp13baby
03-15-2013, 04:03 PM
I disagree. Stats can help an arguement but all you really have to do is just WATCH a game. Anybody who watches Z-Bo and Marc Gasol do work down low knows they need to see the ball more in the post then trying to chase down Rudy Gay's bricks to get their points.

I love Rudy Gay too but it's true that team didn't need him

Stats tell exactly what you just said. Their efficiency in post situations are remarkable and Rudy Gays chucking gets them no where. You have to watch the game but stats tell you so much..

And its not just the Griz that doesn't need him. Its inefficiency that will lead him to not be needed. Look at Monta Ellis. Who honestly needs a guy like that? A team might want him but no one needs a guy that isn't efficient in a game.

blahblahyoutoo
03-15-2013, 04:07 PM
I, for one, am not shocked. I wonder if anyone's taken a gander at Rudy Gay's shooting percentages since the trade, and you just might see why Memphis stuggled so much offensively sometimes. Memphis is just much better suited running their offense through Z-Bo and Marc Gasol. That was evident a couple years ago when they took OKC to seven games in the postseason.....

i cringed when I heard Gay was offered $80M.

Blitzbolt
03-15-2013, 04:13 PM
I said Memphis won this deal right when it happened. The only thing that worries me is ZBO's scoring. If he can get to where he was in 2011 this team will be dangerousYou know its like they Flipp Marc Gasol looks like the 2011 ZBO and ZBO looks like Gasol was back then very solid.

Bombtista
03-15-2013, 04:18 PM
as a casual basketball fan, most of my sports research has come through baseball but at the time of the trade for Gay the most common thing I read about him was that he was an inefficient shooter.

I know that in baseball that would be a huge problem if a guy was only putting up solid numbers because he was given more opportunities to do so than anyone else on the team.

How is inefficiency in shooting not the biggest red flag in basketball.

HouRealCoach
03-15-2013, 04:49 PM
I think they will regret it in the long run... Rudy Gay was just having a bad year but in his career he was always around 45-47%

Hawkeye15
03-15-2013, 04:52 PM
I think they will regret it in the long run... Rudy Gay was just having a bad year but in his career he was always around 45-47%

he has been regressing for 3 years.

Sactown
03-15-2013, 04:54 PM
I think it's a half step backwards, to move forwards. You can't win big paying Rudy Gay 20 million a year, but come playoff time I think they'll miss someone with that size and versatility on defense and offense.

Go_NUGGETS
03-15-2013, 04:58 PM
Hollinger just proves stats are everything.

No he doesnt...and no they aren't...

b@llhog24
03-15-2013, 05:04 PM
Can't believe there was a guy who said that Rudy would be the next Paul Pierce.

KnicksorBust
03-15-2013, 06:01 PM
Someone remind me to bump this when they take another early playoff exit.

IndyRealist
03-15-2013, 06:22 PM
I thought Memphis made a lateral move (in the present) when they made the trade, I thought it was an obvious salary dump of a player with an overrated skillset. But how many people predicted their offense would actually improve once they jettisoned their leading scorer?


http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130314/nba-memphis-grizzlies-better-rudy-gay

I did.

IndyRealist
03-15-2013, 06:28 PM
Hollinger just proves stats are everything. I like the trade for Memphis. Hollinger knows what he is doing.

He didn't. What he proved is that your eyes and your emotions can deceive you. That's why you have to give weight to statistical analysis in conjunction WITH what you see. Dismissing observation for stats is as futile as dismissing stats for observation.

Jays Claw
03-15-2013, 06:32 PM
It's not surprising a team's offense improves once an inefficient scorer is removed and while those possessions demanded are now given to players that are actually efficient (Randolph & Gasol in particular).

In Toronto, I'm witnessing first-hand at how awfully inefficient Gay is. As is, he's already attempting close to 20 FGA's a game while making less than half that. Thank God we have DeRozan to help divide the amount of offensive possessions between the two.

b@llhog24
03-15-2013, 06:32 PM
Someone remind me to bump this when they take another early playoff exit.

The took an early playoff exit to an inferior team last year WITH Gay, what's your point?

KnicksorBust
03-15-2013, 06:49 PM
The took an early playoff exit to an inferior team last year WITH Gay, what's your point?

My point is 3 fold:

1.) People are grossly overrating this hot streak.
2.) They are not a threat in the Western Conference.
3.) I stand by the fact that they would have a much better chance to make a run with Gay on that roster.

b@llhog24
03-15-2013, 06:54 PM
My point is 3 fold:

1.) People are grossly overrating this hot streak.

How so?


2.) They are not a threat in the Western Conference.

Which is your opinion, it depends on who they're matched up against.


3.) I stand by the fact that they would have a much better chance to make a run with Gay on that roster.

Which is a hypothetical. Is it possible? Sure, but it's still a hypothetical. What we do know is they've gone further without Gay than with him. Based on those odds, why wouldn't you choose the former?

Blitzbolt
03-15-2013, 08:07 PM
My point is 3 fold:

1.) People are grossly overrating this hot streak.
2.) They are not a threat in the Western Conference.
3.) I stand by the fact that they would have a much better chance to make a run with Gay on that roster.You are missing the point no one is saying we are winning the West not even Grizzlies fans.

I'm tired of this first it was Mayo and now is Gay when you have the NUMBER 1 defense in the NBA you don't need to score much.

Chronz
03-15-2013, 08:18 PM
Hollinger just proves stats are everything. I like the trade for Memphis. Hollinger knows what he is doing.

The thing is, Hollingers pet metric would value Gay above the guy who replaced him. I think this shows Hollinger knows its MORE than JUST the numbers. Or maybe hes simply doing what most of us do, use a variety of numbers to paint a picture.

Chronz
03-15-2013, 08:24 PM
as a casual basketball fan, most of my sports research has come through baseball......

How is inefficiency in shooting not the biggest red flag in basketball.

Dont know much about baseball but I've seen this occurrence likened to the way traditional fans view your triple crown stats vs the saber stuff. PPG is pretty much all todays youth can handle, old school traditionalists can be just as unwilling to accept the movement as well tho. All that said, not all red flags prove disasterous.


I think they will regret it in the long run... Rudy Gay was just having a bad year but in his career he was always around 45-47%
I get this argument, its partly why I thought he would play better in Toronto. There was no conceivable way he could play worse.... needless to say Im pretty disappointed in him.

Still, a fresh start next year (or perhaps contract year motivation) will have him finally blow up but I doubt the Grizz would have been better served hoping and waiting as opposed to improving the team IMMEDIATELY.


Someone remind me to bump this when they take another early playoff exit.
This one I dont understand. What would that prove even if it occurred? How does your argument compensate for ignoring past success and vast difference in immediate style of play?

Not saying I disagree, nothing is for certain just yet, just curious since this was probably the biggest trade of the deadline.


I did.
No surprise, a win for the anti-shot creation crew but not the end of the war.

Kashmir13579
03-15-2013, 09:04 PM
Not surprised.

topdog
03-15-2013, 11:55 PM
You are missing the point no one is saying we are winning the West not even Grizzlies fans.

I'm tired of this first it was Mayo and now is Gay when you have the NUMBER 1 defense in the NBA you don't need to score much.

This mention of Mayo provides another avenue for discussion: would the Grizz have been better off extending Mayo and sending Gay packing sooner?

b@llhog24
03-16-2013, 12:06 AM
Mayo has cooled off after his hot start. Having him is probably better than not having him, but it depends on the price. Even though Gay leaving has produced basketball dividends, it was probably more about money than court production.

Dade County
03-16-2013, 12:58 AM
Stats tell exactly what you just said. Their efficiency in post situations are remarkable and Rudy Gays chucking gets them no where. You have to watch the game but stats tell you so much..

And its not just the Griz that doesn't need him. Its inefficiency that will lead him to not be needed. Look at Monta Ellis. Who honestly needs a guy like that? A team might want him but no one needs a guy that isn't efficient in a game.

leave Laker & Knick fans alone...lmao

Mell413
03-16-2013, 01:12 AM
I'm not surprised they are playing this well without him in the regular season. That being said I think they will miss him in the playoffs.

Im_in_Mia_bish
03-16-2013, 01:13 AM
traded an overrated chucker and brought in prince, and you get probably one of the best perimeter defending teams in the league.

setman2000
03-16-2013, 01:22 AM
OK NUGGETS, You have our attention!!!

KnicksorBust
03-16-2013, 10:00 AM
How so?

They hit a soft spot in their schedule. I believe only 3 of these wins are against over .500 teams?


Which is your opinion, it depends on who they're matched up against.

Please tell me the realistic path you see to get them to the WCF.


Which is a hypothetical. Is it possible? Sure, but it's still a hypothetical. What we do know is they've gone further without Gay than with him. Based on those odds, why wouldn't you choose the former?

Gay's versatility on both ends allows them to throw a lot of different lineups out there and matchup with different types of opponents.

KnicksorBust
03-16-2013, 10:02 AM
You are missing the point no one is saying we are winning the West not even Grizzlies fans.

I'm tired of this first it was Mayo and now is Gay when you have the NUMBER 1 defense in the NBA you don't need to score much.

Then what is the purpose of this thread if you were a tier 3 team and still are a tier 3 team? I don't see the "GRIZZ HAVE OUR ATTENTION!" as relevant b/c of a small win streak against a soft schedule.

Manimal
03-16-2013, 10:04 AM
Then what is the purpose of this thread if you were a tier 3 team and still are a tier 3 team? I don't see the "GRIZZ HAVE OUR ATTENTION!" as relevant b/c of a small win streak against a soft schedule.

Well considering there are 300 threads on a playoff road kill like the Knicks, Grizzlies should have more threads about them.

ManRam
03-16-2013, 10:10 AM
Well considering there are 300 threads on a playoff road kill like the Knicks, Grizzlies should have more threads about them.

For real. No one ever talks about Memphis. Sure, their hot stretch might mean very little (or it might mean a lot), but we never talk about them here...why the outrage about this thread? They deserve some props for their play lately.


Hollinger just proves stats are everything. I like the trade for Memphis. Hollinger knows what he is doing.

Stats aren't everything. Even Hollinger will be the first to tell you that. He knows how important they are, and how they play a role in the bigger picture, but basketball has more to do with stats. They're EXTREMELY valuable, but other factors play a role...and many of them are not quantifiable.


I'm not surprised they are playing this well without him in the regular season. That being said I think they will miss him in the playoffs.

Perhaps. They might need that go-to scorer. Thing is, he can shoot them out of games as much as he can shoot them into games. And while his playoff sample size is tiny, he was not very good in the playoffs last year.

KnicksorBust
03-16-2013, 10:29 AM
Well considering there are 300 threads on a playoff road kill like the Knicks, Grizzlies should have more threads about them.

:laugh: Reeks of baiting.

b@llhog24
03-16-2013, 10:41 AM
They hit a soft spot in their schedule. I believe only 3 of these wins are against over .500 teams?

They're building chemistry on the fly. It's not like losing to those teams is conducive to anything. And it's only overrated if people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is, that's why I'm asking. If people think that they are title contenders then, they're playing against the odds. Good thing for them is they were never title contenders anyway.



Please tell me the realistic path you see to get them to the WCF.

Why do they HAVE to make it to the WCF to validate your point, when the furthest they've made it with Gay is the first round? You think they would've made it to the WCF? I'm not seeing it. Ps I'd take them in the playoffs over the Dubs.


Gay's versatility on both ends allows them to throw a lot of different lineups out there and matchup with different types of opponents.

Doesn't matter how many fancy ways you have to get a shot off, if you're not hitting those shots. And I'm not buying Gay as being a more versatile defender than Tay.

ManRam
03-16-2013, 10:45 AM
:laugh: Reeks of baiting.

Probably a bit of a jab there for sure...

But his general point is 100% legit. Why is it not thread worthy to discuss the Grizzlies, who had won 14 of 15 when this thread was created? I mean, we talk extensively about lesser teams here. This place would be a little less awful if we actually talked about some other teams for once, like the incredibly hot Grizzlies.

Chronz
03-16-2013, 10:57 AM
Yea the argument that they are beating up on crap teams is completely irrelevant, and not entirely true since they finally got a win against us (Clips) facts are, these are the kind of teams they were more prone to losing to WITH Gay. Its more than just winning, its the level of play, their only losses were tight games against other contenders. Overall a stretch of games this large and performance level this good cannot simply be a result of scheduling. Its a combination of a lax schedule AND a BETTER TEAM. The fact that the Grizz have already proven to have major success without Gay only adds more credibility to their play without him now. Like I could understand the argument if the Grizz were falling to a few of these subpar teams and taking a few schedule losses like they were doing before, but they are cruising through teams they should be beating. Thats a sign of growth no matter how much you want to downplay it KOB.

I think their efficiency in this stretch was better than ANY stretch with Gay.

Sly Guy
03-16-2013, 11:10 AM
It's not surprising a team's offense improves once an inefficient scorer is removed and while those possessions demanded are now given to players that are actually efficient (Randolph & Gasol in particular).

In Toronto, I'm witnessing first-hand at how awfully inefficient Gay is. As is, he's already attempting close to 20 FGA's a game while making less than half that. Thank God we have DeRozan to help divide the amount of offensive possessions between the two.

Dero's outplayed him since his last game winner.

DitchDat
03-16-2013, 11:38 AM
Also like to note that Tayshaun Prince needed to get the hell out of Detroit. He was just rotting there.

IndyRealist
03-16-2013, 01:25 PM
Gay's versatility on both ends allows them to throw a lot of different lineups out there and matchup with different types of opponents.Any lineup they would have used with Gay at PF would take either Marc Gasol or Zach Randolph out of the lineup. Both those players are substantially better than Gay in almost every respect. Gay playing inside, anywhere, compromised the spacing for their bigs. What they needed was a sufficient outside shooter who was willing to stay outside, not take shots away from Randolph/Gasol and could play terrific defense, aka Tayshaun Prince.

And they have a go to scorer. Randolph.