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Money_23
02-28-2013, 01:28 PM
1st team all-nba:

guard:
guard:
forward:
forward:
center:

still1ballin
02-28-2013, 01:30 PM
CP3
Kobe
Durant
Lebron
Dwight

bluefire7002
02-28-2013, 01:41 PM
CP3
Kobe
Durant
Lebron
Dwight

Sounds about right... Nothing to see here :clap:

ATX
02-28-2013, 01:45 PM
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe

tredigs
02-28-2013, 01:45 PM
Sounds about right... Nothing to see here :clap:

lmao.

G: Parker
G: Harden (over Cp3 due to games played)
F: KD
F: LBJ
C: Duncan

ManRam
02-28-2013, 01:46 PM
Paul
Parker
Durant
LeBron
Chandler


Center is a tossup between a lot of guys. No stud/standout center this year.

Deciding which SG to stick on the third team is tough. 2nd team guards have to be two of Harden/Wade/Kobe.

I'm usually fine sticking a PF at the center spot too...and Duncan would be that guy...but I don't know...

HYFR
02-28-2013, 01:46 PM
Good list. Don't know about Dwight this year but these awards go by rep anyways

tredigs
02-28-2013, 01:49 PM
Only locks are KD and Lebron. Harden/Parker/Cp3 and probably Kobe + a few Wades will eat at each others votes. Center's kind of tough, and Duncan's missed a few games himself, but he's been brilliant.

HouRealCoach
02-28-2013, 01:49 PM
I'd have to say..

Parker
CP3
LeBron
Durant
Howard

This league really is hurt with Centers now.. If it wasn't for injuries Yao, Oden, Bynum, & Bogut would make it more interesting but damn

HouRealCoach
02-28-2013, 01:50 PM
If Duncan is listed as Center then he is easily number one

tredigs
02-28-2013, 01:50 PM
There's no chance D. Howard's getting 1st team All NBA fellas. Crazy that 11.9 rpg actually leads the NBA right now with Love and Anderson V out. What a weak rebounding league full of C's we've got.

Edit: That would go down as THE Lowest leading rebounder in NBA history. By a wide margin.

TheWhiteMamba
02-28-2013, 01:52 PM
Parker
Kobe
Durant
LBJ
Duncan

85BearsDefense
02-28-2013, 01:52 PM
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Joakim Noah

Hellcrooner
02-28-2013, 01:53 PM
Paul/Kobe/Lebron/Duncan/ M Gasol.

Minimal
02-28-2013, 01:53 PM
CP3
Parker
LeBron
Durant
Duncan

Ebbs
02-28-2013, 01:55 PM
Paul. . . . . Kobe. . . . . Westbrook
Harden. . . . . Parker. . . . . Wade
Durant. . . . . Melo. . . . . George
LeBron. . . . . Griffin. . . . . Aldridge
Duncan. . . . . Brook. . . . . Dwight

tredigs
02-28-2013, 01:56 PM
Paul/Kobe/Lebron/Duncan/ M Gasol.

Always the contrarian. No KD is precious. But let's hear the argument?

D12 fan
02-28-2013, 01:57 PM
Parker
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Duncan

Hellcrooner
02-28-2013, 02:02 PM
Always the contrarian. No KD is precious. But let's hear the argument?



one pg two bigs two wing players.

b_russ
02-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe

All-Defensive 1st Team

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Harden has Kobe on PER, Win Shares + WS/48, TS%, Offensive + Defensive rating, Stl%, Blk%. Per-game stats are about even (slightly lower on pts and rbs, slightly higher on assists). I'll take him over Kobe relatively easily right now.

Money_23
02-28-2013, 02:05 PM
Harden has Kobe on PER, Win Shares + WS/48, TS%, Offensive + Defensive rating, Stl%, Blk%. Per-game stats are about even (slightly lower on pts and rbs, slightly higher on assists). I'll take him over Kobe relatively easily right now.

cherry picking useless stats, I see.

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:07 PM
one pg two bigs two wing players.

LBJ has played as much or more PF than SF, there's your big if you have to label it that way. In any scenario, there is no argument you can't really get laughed out of the room on if you leave KD off 1st team.


cherry picking useless stats, I see.
Hahahahah - oh the irony. PER and Win Shares are useless, but rpg from a shooting guard are highly coveted, I take it?

D12 fan
02-28-2013, 02:08 PM
How is Chris Paul ahead of Tony Parker?

Parker is top 3 in the MVP race, and CP3 has missed a lot of games due to injury. Parker>Paul

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:10 PM
How is Chris Paul ahead of Tony Parker?

Parker is top 3 in the MVP race, and CP3 has missed a lot of games due to injury. Parker>Paul

I had it close, but TP dismantling him head to head on national TV kind of did a number for Cp3's chances in the voters mind I imagine.

astrosmaniac
02-28-2013, 02:12 PM
how is that cherry picking "useless" stats? what non-"useless" stats does kobe have on harden? PPG? regular FG%? cause i'd cause those more useless than TS%, eFG%, 3 PT %

Money_23
02-28-2013, 02:13 PM
LBJ has played as much or more PF than SF, there's your big if you have to label it that way. In any scenario, there is no argument you can't really get laughed out of the room on if you leave KD off 1st team.


Hahahahah - oh the irony. PER and Win Shares are useless, but rpg from a shooting guard are highly coveted, I take it?

why not just use the bread and butter of stats (FG%, FT%, ppg, rpg, apg, etc) instead of advanced stats which can favor certain players with high or low usg%?

Money_23
02-28-2013, 02:14 PM
how is that cherry picking "useless" stats? what non-"useless" stats does kobe have on harden? PPG? regular FG%? cause i'd cause those more useless than TS%, eFG%, 3 PT %

because ortg, drtg, ws can all favor certain players with certain usg% or other things. Why not just use the basic stats like ppg, apg, rpg, fg%, 3p%, etc?

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 02:14 PM
1st team all-nba:

guard:
guard:
forward:
forward:
center:

Paul
Bryant
Durant
James
Howard I guess

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 02:15 PM
Paul
Parker
Durant
LeBron
Chandler


Center is a tossup between a lot of guys. No stud/standout center this year.

Deciding which SG to stick on the third team is tough. 2nd team guards have to be two of Harden/Wade/Kobe.

I'm usually fine sticking a PF at the center spot too...and Duncan would be that guy...but I don't know...

Zero chance the first team looks like this.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2013, 02:19 PM
Interested to see how far name recognition goes this time around.

still1ballin
02-28-2013, 02:19 PM
How is Chris Paul ahead of Tony Parker?

Parker is top 3 in the MVP race, and CP3 has missed a lot of games due to injury. Parker>Paul

Parker may have the better stats this year, but CP3 has a way bigger impact on the Clippers than Parker does have on the Spurs.

Look at the record when CP3 is in the lineup and when he is not. He makes everyone around him better.

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:20 PM
why not just use the bread and butter of stats (FG%, FT%, ppg, rpg, apg, etc) instead of advanced stats which can favor certain players with high or low usg%?

Because when both players have similar roles and are high usage players, those stats are monumentally more telling than per-game stats. Plus, things like FG% and FT% are incorporated into TS% (only TS% does it smarter by accounting for how many 3's you take and at what percentage. Which clearly lowers the FG% for certain players who are 3 dominant and may be far better scorers than a guy with a higher FG%). Basically they make much more sense. If we're talking about Kobe versus a role playing 20mpg backup SG, now you have a point. But we're not.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2013, 02:20 PM
Harden has Kobe on PER, Win Shares + WS/48, TS%, Offensive + Defensive rating, Stl%, Blk%. Per-game stats are about even (slightly lower on pts and rbs, slightly higher on assists). I'll take him over Kobe relatively easily right now.

Like I just said though, I wonder how much name recognition will factor in.

astrosmaniac
02-28-2013, 02:21 PM
because ortg, drtg, ws can all favor certain players with certain usg% or other things. Why not just use the basic stats like ppg, apg, rpg, fg%, 3p%, etc?

considering both have a usage over 29%, there bias are negligible.

Why not us PPG? well because pace and shot attempts are a huge factor. Essentially, kobe takes 3 more shot attempts per game to get .7 more points. if harden took the same amount of shots, he'd have more points than kobe

APG and RPG are reasonable, which is why i didn't argue them. but looking at them, harden beats him out in APG and less than half a rebound per game less. so essentially those are a wash.

rgular FG% isn't as good as TS% or eFG% because it doesn't account for a 3 being worth more than a 2 or the value of FTs. that's fairly obvious

ichitownclowni
02-28-2013, 02:21 PM
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose

DanG
02-28-2013, 02:22 PM
CP3
Parker
Bron
KD
Duncan

still1ballin
02-28-2013, 02:22 PM
There's no chance D. Howard's getting 1st team All NBA fellas. Crazy that 11.9 rpg actually leads the NBA right now with Love and Anderson V out. What a weak rebounding league full of C's we've got.

Edit: That would go down as THE Lowest leading rebounder in NBA history. By a wide margin.

Yes he will, only because there are not any other legit centers out there. He is not having the best season, but even being 50% he is still the best C.

beliges
02-28-2013, 02:22 PM
This year the 1st team seems extremely simple, outside of the Center position.

The guarantees are: CP3, Kobe, Durant, LBJ and ?

The center is the most difficult position this year as Dwight has been disappointing.

But those are your 4 top players of this season.

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:24 PM
Like I just said though, I wonder how much name recognition will factor in.

For sure, I'm just talking about true reality, not who the voters will pick. It's like Kobe's constant All NBA first teams for defense* (reminds me of Jeter's constant gold gloves after he became a huge liability defensively).

Who I actually think the voters will choose for first team?

G: Cp3 (this will be close with TP)
G: Kobe
F: Durant
F: LBJ
C: Wow that's hard - I do think they go Duncan.


This year the 1st team seems extremely simple, outside of the Center position.

The guarantees are: CP3, Kobe, Durant, LBJ and ?

The center is the most difficult position this year as Dwight has been disappointing.

But those are your 4 top players of this season.

Why is Cp3 a guarantee over Parker? Parker's getting some #2 for MVP buzz and has clearly led the Spurs this year (best record).

beliges
02-28-2013, 02:26 PM
cherry picking useless stats, I see.

Hahahahaha. This is the new trend now. People using useless made up stats to try to back their point. Its always interesting to see when stats like this get used. Its when there is no other plausible explanation to justify their points. The man is trying to argue Harden is better than Kobe this season, and of course he has to revert to WS/48, etc...I find it very funny when people use stats like this and actually believe it proves their point one way or another.

Money_23
02-28-2013, 02:29 PM
considering both have a usage over 29%, there bias are negligible.

Why not us PPG? well because pace and shot attempts are a huge factor. Essentially, kobe takes 3 more shot attempts per game to get .7 more points. if harden took the same amount of shots, he'd have more points than kobe

APG and RPG are reasonable, which is why i didn't argue them. but looking at them, harden beats him out in APG and less than half a rebound per game less. so essentially those are a wash.

rgular FG% isn't as good as TS% or eFG% because it doesn't account for a 3 being worth more than a 2 or the value of FTs. that's fairly obvious

I like both eFG and TS, but the thing about TS you have to keep in mind of is that it favors those who get to the line more than others. Harden avgs almost 3 FTA a game than Kobe while hitting them at a high percentage. Taking how many shots to get to a certain number of points can sometimes be misleading. eFG is nice, it strictly talks about your efficiency from non-free throw shots, adjusted for 3's.

I mean, if you are going to use advanced stats anyway like stl% and blk%, why not just throw in the rest:
as%, rb%, tov% to usg%, etc?

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:29 PM
Hahahahaha. This is the new trend now. People using useless made up stats to try to back their point. Its always interesting to see when stats like this get used. Its when there is no other plausible explanation to justify their points. The man is trying to argue Harden is better than Kobe this season, and of course he has to revert to WS/48, etc...I find it very funny when people use stats like this and actually believe it proves their point one way or another.

Haha I love you guys - you berate but can't actually refute. Make your argument for Kobe --> Harden, and explain for us why Win Shares and PER are useless in comparison to per game stats (given similar roles).


I like both eFG and TS, but the thing about TS you have to keep in mind of is that it favors those who get to the line more than others. Harden avgs almost 3 FTA a game than Kobe while hitting them at a high percentage. Taking how many shots to get to a certain number of points can sometimes be misleading. eFG is nice, it strictly talks about your efficiency from non-free throw shots, adjusted for 3's.

Yes, it does. Getting to the line nets points when you are an outstanding foul shooter. Points win games. Harden helps them do that.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2013, 02:30 PM
Hahahahaha. This is the new trend now. People using useless made up stats to try to back their point. Its always interesting to see when stats like this get used. Its when there is no other plausible explanation to justify their points. The man is trying to argue Harden is better than Kobe this season, and of course he has to revert to WS/48, etc...I find it very funny when people use stats like this and actually believe it proves their point one way or another.

Watching league pass, you get to see every teams local announcers. Even the color guys for every team are now using efficiency terms and advanced stats. Either get on board, or fall behind guys. Per game stats are archaic, and highly flawed compared to advanced stats.

Money_23
02-28-2013, 02:33 PM
Yes, it does. Getting to the line nets points when you are an outstanding foul shooter. Points win games. Harden helps them do that.

but comparing strictly TS% without other stats can lead to certain misconceptions.

JasonJohnHorn
02-28-2013, 02:35 PM
CP3
Kobe
Durant
Lebron
Dwight

This sounds right. Generally when putting in my team I like to be position specific. I won't generally put 2 SGs or 2 SFs or 2PFs, or 2 PGs, but rather one of each. This year though, there just doesn't seem to be a power forward putting up the kind of numbers that would encourage me to place them ahead of LBJ or Durant.

So this year, I'll go with that. I hate to put Dwight on the list because I frankly don't speak he is playing at his best (and I'm not implying that this is due to a lack of effort on his part, but rather perhaps simply recovering from that back injury... I've heard such injuries take up to a year to full recover). I think the numbers Dwight is putting up wouldn't have even gotten him on the All-NBA third team in the late 80's and early-mid 90's. But c'est la vie.

CP3 and Kobe are both deserving, though obviously for SG there is a case for Wade and Harden as well.

tredigs
02-28-2013, 02:37 PM
but comparing strictly TS% without other stats can lead to certain misconceptions.

A quick/easy stat that I came up with to determine the top scorers is TS%*PPG. Combines volume and efficiency.

The stats that I mentioned with Kobe and Harden were TS%, Win Shares, RPG/APG/PPG, PER, Block+stls%, Offensive rating, etc. So definitely was considering much more than just TS%. But to ignore it would be foolish. AKA if Howard had a higher TS%, the Lakers might actually have a winning record. Alright I'm out - I'll check back another time.

still1ballin
02-28-2013, 02:38 PM
I can see bother Wade and Harden on the second teams together

astrosmaniac
02-28-2013, 02:53 PM
I like both eFG and TS, but the thing about TS you have to keep in mind of is that it favors those who get to the line more than others. Harden avgs almost 3 FTA a game than Kobe while hitting them at a high percentage. Taking how many shots to get to a certain number of points can sometimes be misleading. eFG is nice, it strictly talks about your efficiency from non-free throw shots, adjusted for 3's.

I mean, if you are going to use advanced stats anyway like stl% and blk%, why not just throw in the rest:
as%, rb%, tov% to usg%, etc?

yeah, and getting to the line more while converting makes you a better player. Considering both TS% and eFG is a better measure than either alone, but harden is better in both categories.

i have no problem doing that. the advanced stats might lean slightly more kobe's way in assiting/turnovers, but they are less than a percent away from each the rebounding, and harden has an edge in blk%, stl%, WS/48, ortg, drt, and PER

astrosmaniac
02-28-2013, 02:55 PM
Hahahahaha. This is the new trend now. People using useless made up stats to try to back their point. Its always interesting to see when stats like this get used. Its when there is no other plausible explanation to justify their points. The man is trying to argue Harden is better than Kobe this season, and of course he has to revert to WS/48, etc...I find it very funny when people use stats like this and actually believe it proves their point one way or another.
you do realize EVERY stat is made up, right? we make up a system to quantify something using stats. PPG are just as made up as FG% or TS% or PER

rockbottom2010
02-28-2013, 03:05 PM
kobe needs to start winning games

Hawkeye15
02-28-2013, 03:11 PM
but comparing strictly TS% without other stats can lead to certain misconceptions.

Its not a misconception. Scoring the most points in the fewest shot attempts is the name of the game dude. That is where TS% comes in.

Money_23
02-28-2013, 03:39 PM
Its not a misconception. Scoring the most points in the fewest shot attempts is the name of the game dude. That is where TS% comes in.

it's a game of possessions, not a game of shot attempts..... points per POSSESSION is a better measure of efficiency than points per SHOT.

OceanSpray
02-28-2013, 03:42 PM
guard:Wade
guard:Parker
forward:James
forward:Durant
center: Duncan

I don't know why it says Howard leads the league in rebounding.. Maybe there is a minimal requirement but Anderson Varejao and Kevin Love are at 14 RPG. The big men are all getting injured left and ring, can't blame them. Howard isn't even 100%. Last season really did a toll on these players.

wizardsfan3
02-28-2013, 04:03 PM
Parker
Kobe
Durant
Lebron
Duncan

Baller1
02-28-2013, 04:13 PM
1st Team:
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan

2nd Team:
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffin
Tyson Chandler

3rd Team:
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade
Paul Milsap
David Lee
Dwight Howard

HYFR
02-28-2013, 04:19 PM
Interested to see how far name recognition goes this time around.

Doesn't it always go that way with these anyways?

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 04:30 PM
1st Team:
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan

2nd Team:
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffin
Tyson Chandler

3rd Team:
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade
Paul Milsap
David Lee
Dwight Howard

Not happening! Kobe will be ont he first.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 04:31 PM
kobe needs to start winning games

He's doing everythnig he can. The rest of the team needs to step it up, not Kobe.

justinnum1
02-28-2013, 04:31 PM
Doesn't it always go that way with these anyways?

yep. but dwight shouldn't even make 3rd team he has been that bad this season.

ManRam
02-28-2013, 04:32 PM
He's doing everythnig he can. The rest of the team needs to step it up, not Kobe.

Now now now...if we said this about LeBron circa 2009, what would you be saying?!

Hawkeye15
02-28-2013, 04:33 PM
it's a game of possessions, not a game of shot attempts..... points per POSSESSION is a better measure of efficiency than points per SHOT.

I don't agree. On an individual measuring stick, TS% is more important to me, it measures how efficient that player is as a scorer. Getting and making a ton of free throw attempts is key to this, as it should be.

b@llhog24
02-28-2013, 04:33 PM
Paul
Harden
KD
Bron
Duncan

Hitman 3:16
02-28-2013, 04:35 PM
G Paul
G Parker
F Durant
F James
C Duncan

ManRam
02-28-2013, 04:37 PM
1st Team:
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan

2nd Team:
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffin
Tyson Chandler

3rd Team:
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade
Paul Milsap
David Lee
Dwight Howard

I think this is exactly what mine would be, at least for the first two (if we're calling Duncan a center).

3rd team forwards are a complete tossup. I'd put David West and Al Jefferson on there, but they're pretty indistinguishable from the two you picked.

Bravo95
02-28-2013, 04:40 PM
1st Team:
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan

2nd Team:
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffin
Tyson Chandler

3rd Team:
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade
Paul Milsap
David Lee
Dwight Howard
I agree with this, and Al Horford is making a charge to get on that 3rd team.

b@llhog24
02-28-2013, 04:43 PM
Interested to see how far name recognition goes this time around.

+1.

LakersEaglesLA
02-28-2013, 04:44 PM
Kobe is better than CP3, Tony Parker, Harden, and Wade... Stop the stupid comments please!! This is the only site where people don't use common sense

b@llhog24
02-28-2013, 04:44 PM
You're only going to find a major problem with advanced metrics if you don't understand context.

ManRam
02-28-2013, 04:46 PM
Kobe is better than CP3, Tony Parker, Harden, and Wade... Stop the stupid comments please!! This is the only site where people don't use common sense

Hahaha.

I mean, lots of people don't, but if you really think this is the only place you can go where people think CP3, Parker, Harden and Wade have been better than Kobe (at least a few of them), you're delusional.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 05:00 PM
Paul
Harden
KD
Bron
Duncan

Not happening!

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 05:00 PM
Now now now...if we said this about LeBron circa 2009, what would you be saying?!

That his team needs to step thier game up :D

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-28-2013, 05:02 PM
Hahaha.

I mean, lots of people don't, but if you really think this is the only place you can go where people think CP3, Parker, Harden and Wade have been better than Kobe (at least a few of them), you're delusional.

There are many more Kobe haters on the site than most sites on the web.

ManRam
02-28-2013, 05:08 PM
There are many more Kobe haters on the site than most sites on the web.

I think you mistake "people who don't worship Kobe" for "Kobe haters". There are certainly people who underrate the hell out of him and attempt to discredit everything he does, but I don't think that there are many people that are on the extreme end of the Kobe-hating spectrum as you are on the Kobe-loving spectrum. You're just fanatical, and are willing to ignore a lot of things and facts that you don't want to believe. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to realize people who bring up those facts don't necessarily "hate" Kobe. You can say Harden and Wade have been better than Kobe (debatable), lay out and argument, without simply being a "kobe hater". I think you fail to grasp this.

beliges
02-28-2013, 05:13 PM
you do realize EVERY stat is made up, right? we make up a system to quantify something using stats. PPG are just as made up as FG% or TS% or PER

Not true. There are plenty of stats you dont need to insert in a fabricated formula to provide a completely different stat for you (which is what PER, and WS/48 etc... are ). There are stats that people average per game that are not made up but rather are an exact measurement of what a player does during the minutes he actually plays on the floor. People can make up random stats to make their argument look legitimate. The stats you mentioned above are usually always brought up by someone when they have no other reasonable basis to back their point, so they introduce these fabricated statistics that utilizes subjective formulas made up by an individual.

Its fun and interesting to look at, but it should not be a means for someone to try to make a justifiable argument. Its a novelty stat.

ManRam
02-28-2013, 05:24 PM
Not true. There are plenty of stats you dont need to insert in a fabricated formula to provide a completely different stat for you (which is what PER, and WS/48 etc... are ). There are stats that people average per game that are not made up but rather are an exact measurement of what a player does during the minutes he actually plays on the floor. People can make up random stats to make their argument look legitimate. The stats you mentioned above are usually always brought up by someone when they have no other reasonable basis to back their point, so they introduce these fabricated statistics that utilizes subjective formulas made up by an individual.

Its fun and interesting to look at, but it should not be a means for someone to try to make a justifiable argument. Its a novelty stat.

Stopped reading after "fabricated formula"...


I get hesitation towards PER and Win Shares, but I do think they are incredibly telling, and I've seen few articulate and intelligent arguments against them. This post is no different.


But dismissing eFG% (which is such a simple stat to understand...and makes so much sense) and TS% (less simple, but again it makes so much sense) and other basic advanced stats (AST% instead of APG, for example) aren't anything to ever dismiss. They take a basic stat, or multiple stats (FG%, 3 PT%, FT%, APG etc.) and give you a more meaningful representation.

Money_23
02-28-2013, 05:30 PM
Stopped reading after "fabricated formula"...


I get hesitation towards PER and Win Shares, but I do think they are incredibly telling, and I've seen few articulate and intelligent arguments against them. This post is no different.


But dismissing eFG% (which is such a simple stat to understand...and makes so much sense) and TS% (less simple, but again it makes so much sense) and other basic advanced stats (AST% instead of APG, for example) aren't anything to ever dismiss. They take a basic stat, or multiple stats (FG%, 3 PT%, FT%, APG etc.) and give you a more meaningful representation.

most of the advanced stats are more of a "team" stat than an individual stat. TS and eFG are great. But others require lots of context. So strictly using advanced stats to compare players is just as bad as saying 5 rings > 1.

celtNYpatsHeels
02-28-2013, 05:36 PM
Parker
Harden
James
Durant
Lee or Horford

astrosmaniac
02-28-2013, 05:39 PM
But how are regular stats any less context oriented? Some players average more points per game because they are only legit threat on the team. Dwight had astronomical rebounding numbers in Orlando cause everyone else was planted at the 3 point line (along with being a good player). Assists per game can be low if your teammates can't consistently hit open jumpers. All of those are also extremely dependent on pace where as at least percentages aren't.

The one I will agree with you on is defensive rating. Because defense as a whole is usually more of a team effort

ManRam
02-28-2013, 05:45 PM
most of the advanced stats are more of a "team" stat than an individual stat. TS and eFG are great. But others require lots of context. So strictly using advanced stats to compare players is just as bad as saying 5 rings > 1.

Elaborate how PER is team-dependent. PER is influenced by team-factors, but not much. It focuses on individual metrics.

These advanced stats try to contextualize and normalize basic stats...and that's what meaningful stats need to do. Assists per game is very team-dependent because you might play with terrible shooters. But AST% (a basic advanced stat) isn't nearly as much because all it's doing is telling us what percentage of a player's teammate's made field goals are assisted by that player. The crappy/not-crappy teammates issue kinda gets resolved.


And your last point is incorrect. Rings are FAR more team dependent than any advanced stat (besides maybe individual defensive rating or something like that, but even still, it's not really close). PER does a much better job comparing players completely individually than counting rings does. If you don't see that, well, that's on you.

PER seeks to reward players for positive things (points, assists, field goals, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, steals, blocks etc.) and penalize them for the negatives (missed shots, fouls, turnovers etc.). It takes a lot of simple things and spits out a number (not at all "fabricated") that represents how well a player succeeds at a wide variety of important things. It's not a perfect stat at all, but it does a good job quantifying a lot of things that do matter, whether your like it or not. PER doesn't tend to like Kobe as much as LeBron because LeBron is a far more efficient scorer (whether you use basic percentages or advanced ones), is a better passer (again, basic or advanced), rebounder (same), etc. It's not because it's a flawed stat.

Obviously it leaves out a lot of things, especially on the defensive end, and it doesn't necessarily show how impacting a player is on a given team (as good as, say RAPM might).

But there is no better stat that shows how well a player does in regards to their TOTAL contributions on the court. It takes a lot of important stats/factors and weights them in a fair manner. I fail to see the contreversy in that...at least I fail to ever see it articulately dismantled in a manner that doesn't simply start with "it's stupid because it's made up and completely arbitrary".

My biggest beef with PER is, again, defensively. Steals and blocks matter, but they really don't at all tell the whole picture defensively.

DR_1
02-28-2013, 05:52 PM
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose
Derrick Rose

:drool:

Jarvo
02-28-2013, 06:08 PM
Parker
CP3
Lebron
Durant
Duncan

WARRIORS@GR
02-28-2013, 06:21 PM
How is cp3 better than parker this year is beyond me..
Also,lol at guys having in the all-nba 1st team two guys from a loosing,non-playoff team..

OceanSpray
02-28-2013, 06:26 PM
How is cp3 better than parker this year is beyond me..
Also,lol at guys having in the all-nba 1st team two guys from a loosing,non-playoff team..

You don't have to be in the playoffs to qualify...

Chronz
02-28-2013, 06:33 PM
I don't agree. On an individual measuring stick, TS% is more important to me, it measures how efficient that player is as a scorer. Getting and making a ton of free throw attempts is key to this, as it should be.But PPP measures more than just free throw possessions. So how is it more important?

Chronz
02-28-2013, 06:35 PM
but comparing strictly TS% without other stats can lead to certain misconceptions.
Arent all stats similarly flawed without added context?

WARRIORS@GR
02-28-2013, 06:35 PM
You don't have to be in the playoffs to qualify...didn't say that..i'm ok with including kobe..but how is dwight the best C in the league this year?i can easily find 10 guys who have outperformed him.KG,duncan,chandler,noah,monroe,cousins..hell,e ven pekovic and asik might be playing better so far.

Chronz
02-28-2013, 06:36 PM
How is cp3 better than parker this year is beyond me..
Also,lol at guys having in the all-nba 1st team two guys from a loosing,non-playoff team..
CP3 has taken his lumps the last few games but lets not discount his early run with a semi healthy squad.

Bruno
02-28-2013, 06:39 PM
my prediction for what the all nba first team will look like:

Cp3
Kobe
Durant
James
Duncan

this is my prediction, which is more important than who I actually think deserves it.

LakersEaglesLA
02-28-2013, 06:40 PM
I didn't know the playoff teams were set I thought there were 25 games left..

J_M_B
02-28-2013, 08:11 PM
Paul
Parker
Durant
LeBron
Duncan

Name recognition will play a part in deciding these teams though ..

Blitzbolt
02-28-2013, 08:14 PM
PG=Noah
SG=ZBO
SF=M.Gasol
PF=Duncan
C=Hibbert

Go big or go home!!

85BearsDefense
02-28-2013, 11:27 PM
Doesn't it always go that way with these anyways?

yep. but dwight shouldn't even make 3rd team he has been that bad this season.

Bad it terms of Dwight but still averaging 18 and 12 IIRC

LoveMeOrHateMe
02-28-2013, 11:28 PM
guard:Cp3/Parker
guard: Kobe
forward: lebron
forward: durant
center: Duncan/howard

LoveMeOrHateMe
02-28-2013, 11:30 PM
Only locks are KD and Lebron. Harden/Parker/Cp3 and probably Kobe + a few Wades will eat at each others votes. Center's kind of tough, and Duncan's missed a few games himself, but he's been brilliant.

Only locks are kd and lebron lol when has Kobe been second team over the last 10 years? Maybe once? Lol sure as hell won't be second team this year he's basically a lock for 1st team again

c.c.
02-28-2013, 11:54 PM
As of now, Kobe and Dwight do not belong on there. Chandler and Noah is ahead of Dwight. Parker, Paul, Wade, and Harden is ahead of Kobe. Y'all basing this off their overall career and star status instead of what they did this year.

4milesperday
02-28-2013, 11:56 PM
Tony Parker
D Wade
LBJ
Durrant
Howard

chong2204
03-01-2013, 12:17 AM
PG-Billy Hoyle
SG-Jesus Shuttlesworth
SF-Jimmy Chitwood
PF-Shep
C-Jackie Moon

Any disagreement with this list and you must be a caca head.

tredigs
03-01-2013, 12:29 AM
Only locks are kd and lebron lol when has Kobe been second team over the last 10 years? Maybe once? Lol sure as hell won't be second team this year he's basically a lock for 1st team again

You're a homer and worthless to type to, but to explain briefly, the reason why KD and Bron are locks is that they are both the most deserving and the most likely to earn the votes. They will easily be locked in 1st team by anyone with a vote. You think Kobe will receive that treatment? Not a chance. I know he's the queen of receiving awards he does not deserve, but those 2 guard positions on 1st team will be heavily split up.

97NYer
03-01-2013, 12:31 AM
No one should even consider putting Dwight over Duncan

CP3
Parker
Durant
LeBron
Duncan

Melo, Kobe, Harden, Dwight are probably locks for the 2nd team

chong2204
03-01-2013, 12:34 AM
You're a homer and worthless to type to, but to explain briefly, the reason why KD and Bron are locks is that they are both the most deserving and the most likely to earn the votes. They will easily be locked in 1st team by anyone with a vote. You think Kobe will receive that treatment? Not a chance. I know he's the queen of receiving awards he does not deserve, but those 2 guard positions on 1st team will be heavily split up.

The queen?? Your mean. Hope you have poopy pants later.

Chronz
03-01-2013, 12:39 AM
Only locks are kd and lebron lol when has Kobe been second team over the last 10 years? Maybe once? Lol sure as hell won't be second team this year he's basically a lock for 1st team again

Remember where Kobe finished the last time he missed the playoffs

LoveMeOrHateMe
03-01-2013, 12:43 AM
You're a homer and worthless to type to, but to explain briefly, the reason why KD and Bron are locks is that they are both the most deserving and the most likely to earn the votes. They will easily be locked in 1st team by anyone with a vote. You think Kobe will receive that treatment? Not a chance. I know he's the queen of receiving awards he does not deserve, but those 2 guard positions on 1st team will be heavily split up.

Your one of the biggest Kobe haters so I could care less what you say

LoveMeOrHateMe
03-01-2013, 12:43 AM
Remember where Kobe finished the last time he missed the playoffs

He also missed about 1/3 of the season he missed like 30 games

LoveMeOrHateMe
03-01-2013, 12:44 AM
Anyone who thinks Kobe is gonna get anything other then 1st team doesn't know the way voting and basketball works

tredigs
03-01-2013, 12:52 AM
He also missed about 1/3 of the season he missed like 30 games

No, he missed like 15 games, a game less than he missed the year before when he did earn first team (alongside his Shaq daddy). Truly I'm far from a Kobe hater when not confronted with you Kobe sig kids, I'm just not a delusional homer and realize that he has been gifted many awards in his career, and despite that is far from a lock to be 1st team this year. He has a case, but it is no better than at least 3 other guards for 2 spots.

Jimmer55
03-01-2013, 08:43 AM
lmao @ the delusional haters. Kobe is a LOCK for first team. Prepare to cry.

king4day
03-01-2013, 10:19 AM
I would put Chandler, Noah, and Lopez before Howard. He's had a disappointing year for his standards.

canefandynasty
03-01-2013, 10:20 AM
What it should be

G CP3
G Wade/Parker
F LeBron
F Durant
C Duncan

What it will be

G CP3
G Kobe
F LeBron
F Durant
F Howard

tredigs
03-01-2013, 11:27 AM
lmao @ the delusional haters. Kobe is a LOCK for first team. Prepare to cry.
ha @ prepare to cry as if actually effects anyones day. Gotta love those who get their (e) confidence through the actions of other people they don't know.

But if any of you here have an actual, you know, argument to add to the discussion on why you think Kobe's a "LOCK!)@( HATERZ!" over Cp3/Parker/Harden/whoever finishes strong out of 1-3 others, I'd love to see it.

Jimmer55
03-01-2013, 11:32 AM
ha @ prepare to cry as if actually effects anyones day. Gotta love those who get their (e) confidence through the actions of other people they don't know.

But if any of you here have an actual, you know, argument to add to the discussion on why you think Kobe's a "LOCK!)@( HATERZ!" over Cp3/Parker/Harden/whoever finishes strong out of 1-3 others, I'd love to see it.

I don't need to dignify such outlandish topics. Kobe's game speaks for itself.

bucketss
03-01-2013, 11:37 AM
kobe will probably be first team based on his reputation and who he is more than than anything

OceanSpray
03-01-2013, 11:45 AM
Kobe will get it just like he gets ALL NBA FIRST DEFENSIVE TEAM... pathetic.

Jimmer55
03-01-2013, 12:00 PM
Kobe will get it just like he gets ALL NBA FIRST DEFENSIVE TEAM... pathetic.

NO, he will NOT get all defensive because he does NOT deserve it. However, he DOES deserve first team all-nba and there is no questioning it.

OceanSpray
03-01-2013, 12:04 PM
NO, he will NOT get all defensive because he does NOT deserve it. However, he DOES deserve first team all-nba and there is no questioning it.

So why did he get it last year? And the year before that.. And the year before that..

Celtics33
03-01-2013, 12:05 PM
Cp3
tp
lbj
kd
td

Chronz
03-01-2013, 12:09 PM
He also missed about 1/3 of the season he missed like 30 games
Nah he missed like the same amount of games he usually did during that phase of his career, in fact I think he played more games than the year prior (When he made 1st-Team). As a Kobe homer, you really should read up on your boy.

Chronz
03-01-2013, 12:12 PM
NO, he will NOT get all defensive because he does NOT deserve it. However, he DOES deserve first team all-nba and there is no questioning it.

I hope so, but how are you so sure this will FINALLY be the year they stop gifting him the award? Poor Iggy had to be left off for Kobe last year.

Chronz
03-01-2013, 12:12 PM
Anyone who thinks Kobe is gonna get anything other then 1st team doesn't know the way voting and basketball works

So we arent allowed to hope for the best possible outcome? Sometimes the media does get it right you know.

AWC713
03-01-2013, 12:30 PM
lin
harden
parsons
donatas motiejunas
asik

tredigs
03-01-2013, 12:45 PM
I don't need to dignify such outlandish topics. Kobe's game speaks for itself.

Gonna to have to assume you're not actually a Kobe fan and are just trolling for kicks.

Vincent33
03-01-2013, 12:50 PM
Parker
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Noah

kimchi'sworld
03-01-2013, 02:57 PM
1st team

Paul
Wade/Parker (Depends on Heat/Spurs record)
Durant
James
Duncan

2nd Team

Parker/Wade (Depends on Spurs/Heat record)
Bryant/Harden (Depending on whose team make's the play-offs)
Anthony
Griffin
Lopez

3rd Team

Harden/Bryant (Depending on whose team make's the play-offs)
Westbrook
Aldridge
D. Lee
Howard

JordansBulls
03-03-2013, 10:36 AM
lmao.

G: Parker
G: Harden (over Cp3 due to games played)
F: KD
F: LBJ
C: Duncan
Parker won't get first team now that he is out 4 weeks.

canefandynasty
03-03-2013, 10:54 AM
G CP3
G Wade
F LeBron
F Durant
C Duncan

jerellh528
03-12-2013, 04:54 AM
cp3
kobe
durant
lebron
howard

DumDum
03-12-2013, 05:03 AM
Not kobe
Not kobe
Not kobe
Not kobe
Not kobe

jerellh528
03-12-2013, 05:07 AM
Not kobe
Not kobe
Not kobe
Not kobe
Not kobe

lol your name is quite fitting.

rockbottom2010
03-12-2013, 05:11 AM
people who put dwight howard as center for the 1st nba team, that mean they don't know ****...nuff said

DumDum
03-12-2013, 05:30 AM
lol your name is quite fitting.

Your a sucker

jerellh528
03-12-2013, 05:32 AM
people who put dwight howard as center for the 1st nba team, that mean they don't know ****...nuff said

leads the league in rebounds, 5th in blocks, 6th in fg% and still scoring above 16ppg. Who else is there? duncan? duncan is shooting below .500 fg% single digit rebounds and scores the same as dwight with worse defense. Center is just overall really weak this season.

jerellh528
03-12-2013, 05:32 AM
Your a sucker

You're a cantaloupe.

DumDum
03-12-2013, 05:34 AM
:rolleyes:

DumDum
03-12-2013, 05:36 AM
You're a cantaloupe.

:speechless: o noez

jaji10
03-12-2013, 05:36 AM
parker wont make the 1st team, he played great this season but the spurs are still winning without him.. it means its the system they are playing is the reason they're on top of the west.. u cant say that with cp3, kobe and harden.. without those 3 their team would definitely struggle..

Lord Leoshes
03-12-2013, 06:18 PM
T Parker
D Wade
K Durant
L James
C Bosh

RaiderLakersA's
03-13-2013, 12:00 AM
Parker
Kobe
Durant
LeBron
Duncan, if they see him as a center

canefandynasty
03-13-2013, 12:59 AM
CP3 or Parker
Wade
LBJ
Durant
Duncan

naps
03-13-2013, 01:15 AM
Paul
Wade
Durant
LeBron
Duncan

beliges
03-13-2013, 01:23 AM
I'd think the only position up for debate is Center. You got CP3, Kobe, Durant and LBJ as locks. There hasn't been a noticeably great center in the league this year.

fresh prince
03-13-2013, 05:27 AM
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Joakim Noah

This is it. Duncan and Noah and cp3 and Parker only battles.

ATX
03-13-2013, 09:59 AM
Paul
Wade
Durant
James
Duncan

I'm sure Kobe will get the nod over Wade, and in that case, Wade certainly 100% deserves 2nd team honors.

Lord Leoshes
03-14-2013, 06:00 PM
I'd think the only position up for debate is Center. You got CP3, WADE, Durant and LBJ as locks. There hasn't been a noticeably great center in the league this year.

Fixed.

Neither Kobe, or Harden could defend their own shadows. Or is this a game of hourse, or around the world where you don't have to defend anyone? :confused:

2-ONE-5
03-14-2013, 10:56 PM
CP3 (if Parker didnt go down I would have him here, no doubt)
Kobe
KD
James
Duncan

mightybosstone
03-14-2013, 11:04 PM
PG Chris Paul
SG James Harden
SF Kevin Durant
PF Lebron James
C Tim Duncan

It's really close at point guard and shooting guard. If Parker were healthy, it'd be extremely close between he and Paul. But with him missing so much time down the final stretch of the regular season, it's Paul's spot to lose. Harden gets a slight edge over Kobe for me, because their numbers are nearly identical, but what Harden has done this year for the Rockets is more remarkable than Kobe's job with the Lakers. The forward spots are a given, and Duncan gets center solely because of the lack of elite centers. Howard could still take that spot if he plays great down the stretch, and you could make a halfway decent case for Marc Gasol and Tyson Chandler.

bucketss
03-14-2013, 11:11 PM
paul
wade
lebron
durant
dwight

kdspurman
03-14-2013, 11:17 PM
PG Chris Paul
SG James Harden
SF Kevin Durant
PF Lebron James
C Tim Duncan

It's really close at point guard and shooting guard. If Parker were healthy, it'd be extremely close between he and Paul. But with him missing so much time down the final stretch of the regular season, it's Paul's spot to lose. Harden gets a slight edge over Kobe for me, because their numbers are nearly identical, but what Harden has done this year for the Rockets is more remarkable than Kobe's job with the Lakers. The forward spots are a given, and Duncan gets center solely because of the lack of elite centers. Howard could still take that spot if he plays great down the stretch, and you could make a halfway decent case for Marc Gasol and Tyson Chandler.

Paul has missed games too this season, and Parker will still be there for the final stretch, and earlier than expected most likely. CP3 has been pretty good in the past 6 games too (the amount TP has missed & Clips are 3-3) He's had some good games, couple not so good, but nothing I think that would necessarily make it his to lose. I think it's probably up for grabs, though I think Paul gets it regardless.

I agree with your list though, if Duncan is being looked at as a C. Though I do see Kobe probably getting it or even Wade over Harden

soundjunkies2
03-14-2013, 11:19 PM
These 4 will get a spot just because of who they are IMO.

G - Paul
G - Kobe
F - KD
F - Lebron

and the center spot is a tossup. Marc Gasol would be my guess though.

SportsFanatic10
03-14-2013, 11:34 PM
parker
wade
durant
lebron
duncan

ThaDubs
03-14-2013, 11:57 PM
1st Team

Parker
Wade
Durant
James
Duncan

2nd Team

Paul
Bryant
Melo
Lee
Howard

3rd Team

Westbrook/Irving/Curry
Harden
George/Pierce
Aldridge
Lopez/Horford

JerseyPalahniuk
03-15-2013, 12:12 AM
CP3
Parker
Durant
Lebron
Duncan

Kobe, Melo are 2nd team
Lopez is 3rd team

Im_in_Mia_bish
03-15-2013, 03:22 AM
cp3
kobe
durant
lebron
duncan

LakersMaster24
03-15-2013, 03:46 AM
CP3
Kobe
Durant
Lebron
Duncan

fresh prince
03-15-2013, 05:37 AM
Fixed.

Neither Kobe, or Harden could defend their own shadows. Or is this a game of hourse, or around the world where you don't have to defend anyone? :confused:

This whole Kobe is a horrible defender thing is greatly exaggerated. While he isn't the lock-down defender he once was Kobe is still an adequate defender and WHEN HE WANTS TO he can still lock certain guys up. For instance In the now infamous ATL game the other night Kobe switched on to guard Devin Harris after he burned Nash for 6 straight points. Harris went scoreless the rest of the way which setup the Lakers to make their late push.

THIS is typical of Kobe's d these days. He lacks focus and consistent effort on that end but when its time to get a key stop he is still more than capable.

sventhedog
03-15-2013, 07:54 AM
parker kobe durant lebron duncan

D-Leethal
03-15-2013, 09:20 AM
I think Duncan should be first team C and Gasol/Noah/Chandler and somehow even Dwight all have their fair say for 2nd team.

blystr2002
03-15-2013, 09:45 AM
Parker-MVP canidate
Kobe- Best year he has had in awhile and was pushing himself into running for 2nd in MVP race
Durant- Scoring machine
Lebron- League MVP
Howard- Lack of strong competition at Center

Dankster
03-15-2013, 10:26 AM
Parker
Kobe
KD
LBJ
Dwight

Tony deserves the love. His statistics are insane this year (his efficiency has skyrocketed) and he's been the MVP of that great Spurs team up to this point.

SG was tough. Harden is having a tremendous year and Wade has quietly put in some magnificent #'s as well. All other positions are pretty clear cut.

Lord Leoshes
03-15-2013, 06:06 PM
This whole Kobe is a horrible defender thing is greatly exaggerated. While he isn't the lock-down defender he once was Kobe is still an adequate defender and WHEN HE WANTS TO he can still lock certain guys up. For instance In the now infamous ATL game the other night Kobe switched on to guard Devin Harris after he burned Nash for 6 straight points. Harris went scoreless the rest of the way which setup the Lakers to make their late push.

THIS is typical of Kobe's d these days. He lacks focus and consistent effort on that end but when its time to get a key stop he is still more than capable.

That still does not put him anywhere close to the level of defense Wade plays.
Granted when Kobe was younger he was an excellent defender, but he is no were near that level now. & por Kobe plays with Nash who is an even worse defender then him.

Either way when it come to best two way shooting guard in the league & it is clear that Wade #1.

Wade defensively is better then Kobe, Harden, CP3, & T Parker, & is at worse = on offense.

beliges
03-15-2013, 06:13 PM
That still does not put him anywhere close to the level of defense Wade plays.
Granted when Kobe was younger he was an excellent defender, but he is no were near that level now. & por Kobe plays with Nash who is an even worse defender then him.

Either way when it come to best two way shooting guard in the league & it is clear that Wade #1.

Wade defensively is better then Kobe, Harden, CP3, & T Parker, & is at worse = on offense.

Please stop. Enough. No matter what you do or say Wade is simply not better than Kobe. How long does this comparison need to go. Any objective basketball fan will tell you simply Kobe is a better player than Wade even in his 17th season. Please let it go and move on.

Lord Leoshes
03-18-2013, 02:35 AM
Please stop. Enough. No matter what you do or say Wade is simply not better than Kobe. How long does this comparison need to go. Any objective basketball fan will tell you simply Kobe is a better player than Wade even in his 17th season. Please let it go and move on.

You must be one of those religious fanatics with an imaginary friend, who keep picking fights with others saying your imaginary friend can beat their imaginary friend without any actual proof, but because your mammy said so.

Adam Sandler is that you from the water boy?

There is this little thing called logic, maybe you should use is.

Wade 34.7MPG - 8.5 -16.2FGM-FGA - .524FG# - .258*3PFG% - .751FT% - 5.0RPG - 5.0APG - 0.8BLKPG - 1.8STLPG - 21.8PPG 24.97 - PER.

Kobe 37.9MPG - 9.6 -20.4 FGM-FGA - .468FG# - .339*3PFG% - .838FT% - 5.4RPG - 5.8APG - 0.3BLKPG - 1.3STLPG - 27.1PPG - 23.16PER


Give Wade the same amount of min, & shot attempts, as well as be the #1 ball handler, & All of Wades states would surpass Kobe's except for FT%/3PFG%. Then add to the fact that Wade is the superior defender, & it is clear to any none mentally challenged person that Wade is just better then Kobe at this stage in their carriers.