PDA

View Full Version : If LeBron breaks Jordan's per record..



LOb0
02-24-2013, 07:58 PM
Would you recognize it as being legitimately broken? The no touch rules now give fast perimeter players much more of an advantage than Jordan had in his era. I personally wouldn't unless it was blown away because I'm certain Jordan would have abused a no touch league.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:00 PM
Of course I would observe it as accurate.

kjoke
02-24-2013, 08:01 PM
So what you mean to say is that even if Lebron does break the PER record, hes PER record could not still beat Jordan's even though he does in fact beat it

LOb0
02-24-2013, 08:03 PM
So what you mean to say is that even if Lebron does break the PER record, hes PER record could not still beat Jordan's even though he does in fact beat it


Due to the rule change that clearly makes it easier, yes.

Guppyfighter
02-24-2013, 08:04 PM
Due to the rule change that clearly makes it easier, yes.

Defenses are better now.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:06 PM
Due to the rule change that clearly makes it easier, yes.

then Wilt was the greatest rebounder ever, despite Rodman's rebound rate being stronger. You are measured across the line, not just by some definition an individual makes. Advanced stats make it easier to level the playing field as far as pace and rule changes. Have you accounted for defenses being better now?

Does anyone actually think LeBron wouldnt have been just fine back then, and played with the same results? He is a tank.

LOb0
02-24-2013, 08:08 PM
Defenses are better now.


League offense is down, I don't see evidence that's due to improved defense.

bucketss
02-24-2013, 08:09 PM
the hand check rule was gone while mj was still playing, not to mention there are much better athletes in this era.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:10 PM
League offense is down, I don't see evidence that's due to improved defense.

you just answered your own question on why offenses are down dude.

LOb0
02-24-2013, 08:10 PM
the hand check rule was gone while mj was still playing, not to mention there are much better athletes in this era.

LeBron in this era easily has as much of an advantage as Jordan had in his era athletically.

LOb0
02-24-2013, 08:12 PM
you just answered your own question on why offenses are down dude.

Far less big man play accounting for less high percentage shots? Many more 3s being fired up ill-advised. Could very well be the problem. Like I said, I see no evidence defense is better.

Slug3
02-24-2013, 08:15 PM
It seems like as great as Lebron is playing now, some people just go above and beyond to not enjoy it and just look for ways to discredit him.

Guppyfighter
02-24-2013, 08:18 PM
Far less big man play accounting for less high percentage shots? Many more 3s being fired up ill-advised. Could very well be the problem. Like I said, I see no evidence defense is better.

That's because you aren't watching the games. They are more complex now than ever. Everyone knows what every one and what they should do to counter it.

MiamiBoy77
02-24-2013, 08:20 PM
You literally started this thread to downplay lebron.

How much better does he really have to play for people to shut up.

Damn

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:21 PM
Far less big man play accounting for less high percentage shots? Many more 3s being fired up ill-advised. Could very well be the problem. Like I said, I see no evidence defense is better.

The defenses are far more complex nowadays. If you are attempting to discredit LeBron's numbers because of his era, we can play that game with every player in history.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:22 PM
You literally started this thread to downplay lebron.

How much better does he really have to play for people to shut up.

Damn

You would be surprised how many people did this to MJ around the 92' season, when saying he still can't ever touch Magic, Russell, or Bird.

ManRam
02-24-2013, 08:22 PM
The whole "it's so easy to play offense in today's NBA" narrative is becoming incredibly tiresome.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:25 PM
The whole "it's so easy to play offense in today's NBA" narrative is becoming incredibly tiresome.

now that is an weird moment in your sig

FraziersKnicks
02-24-2013, 08:29 PM
It's not Jordan's record to be broken, it's Wilt's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:31 PM
It's not Jordan's record to be broken, it's Wilt's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

very true, though many stat-heads like to break up the faster paced era from the "modern'' era.

Sly Guy
02-24-2013, 08:40 PM
League offense is down, I don't see evidence that's due to improved defense.

yeah, more like a decline in free throw shooting.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-24-2013, 08:42 PM
Defenses are better now.

:facepalm:

OceanSpray
02-24-2013, 08:45 PM
:facepalm:

You're just disagreeing with the obvious because you're against LeBron and would boost another player over him every opportunity you can.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-24-2013, 08:47 PM
Braking records in this watered down league has less meaning.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-24-2013, 08:48 PM
You're just disagreeing with the obvious because you're against LeBron and would boost another player over him every opportunity you can.
Defense barely exist anymore DNG.

OceanSpray
02-24-2013, 08:49 PM
Defense barely exist anymore DNG.

Must be why they scored more in Jordan's era than the current era.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-24-2013, 08:54 PM
Must be why they scored more in Jordan's era than the current era.
The pace was faster back then. Rule changes have made this league laughable. The euro league makes the nba look cotton soft.

OceanSpray
02-24-2013, 08:55 PM
The pace was faster back then. Rule changes have made this league laughable. The euro league makes the nba look cotton soft.

So you guys have an excuse for the defense and offense. Damn, you guys just won't give anyone credit these days. If the topic was "If Kobe breaks Jordan's PER record", you wouldn't be saying that. It's too bad Kobe will never get close to that so it's an invalid debate.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 09:01 PM
So distance shooters have never been this accurate and you see zero evidence of improved offense?

Chronz
02-24-2013, 09:04 PM
The pace was faster back then. Rule changes have made this league laughable. The euro league makes the nba look cotton soft.

So the 60's = GOAT defense?

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-24-2013, 09:06 PM
So you guys have an excuse for the defense and offense. Damn, you guys just won't give anyone credit these days. If the topic was "If Kobe breaks Jordan's PER record", you wouldn't be saying that. It's too bad Kobe will never get close to that so it's an invalid debate.
The bottom line is Lebrons stats are inflated because of the rules of the today's nba.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 09:06 PM
now that is an weird moment in your sig

Lluz. 50 got snubbed.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 09:07 PM
The bottom line is Lebrons stats are inflated because of the rules of the today's nba.

Proof?

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-24-2013, 09:10 PM
Proof?
Watch a basketball game. Your eyes should show you proof.

LOb0
02-24-2013, 09:18 PM
Proof?

Because its obvious that the league changed the rules to cater more to quick perimeter players. Blowing by your man is far easier because you can't touch them.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 09:27 PM
The bottom line is Lebrons stats are inflated because of the rules of the today's nba.

will you ever back up your opinion with facts? Isn't this the same era your hero played in?

OceanSpray
02-24-2013, 09:27 PM
Watch a basketball game. Your eyes should show you proof.

So that also means your boy Kobe has inflated stats. Why do you assume it's easier? Better athletes, better competition. Just because LeBron is physically ahead of everyone because he's a genetic freak doesn't mean it's inflated. He's just that damn good.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 09:28 PM
Watch a basketball game. Your eyes should show you proof.

You're talking about statistics and how much their inflated by the rules. Don't need to watch a game to see variations in statistics.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 09:31 PM
Because its obvious that the league changed the rules to cater more to quick perimeter players. Blowing by your man is far easier because you can't touch them.

you realize Bron could have played PF back in the day you are speaking of, right? Do you really think a 6'8", 265 lb deer with handles wouldn't have been just fine back in the day?

Chronz
02-24-2013, 09:32 PM
The pace was faster back then. Rule changes have made this league laughable. The euro league makes the nba look cotton soft.

So the 60's = GOAT defense?
Nothing?

LAcowBOMBER
02-24-2013, 09:35 PM
then Wilt was the greatest rebounder ever, despite Rodman's rebound rate being stronger. You are measured across the line, not just by some definition an individual makes. Advanced stats make it easier to level the playing field as far as pace and rule changes. Have you accounted for defenses being better now?

Does anyone actually think LeBron wouldnt have been just fine back then, and played with the same results? He is a tank.

I think he would have been just fine, but it is a little iffy when it comes down to would his numbers be exactly the same. I don't know the answer one way or the other, but they were pretty different eras.

MaloDaw9
02-24-2013, 09:38 PM
Does a bear **** in the woods

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 09:39 PM
I think he would have been just fine, but it is a little iffy when it comes down to would his numbers be exactly the same. I don't know the answer one way or the other, but they were pretty different eras.

any answer you or I argue over is speculation, but yes, a man of his strength and athletic ability would have thrived in any era. Fact.

Demon11
02-24-2013, 09:50 PM
These Lebron threads always turn into Laker cirklejerks disproving anything Lebron does. I will never see the day where i open a thread which is arguing over something concerning Lebron and see a majority of Lakers taking the pro-lebron route for it. I even have a close Laker fan friend who even admits to this, if we are are ever arguing about Lebron his arguement is always, "Dude, i'm a Lakers fan.".

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 09:59 PM
These Lebron threads always turn into Laker cirklejerks disproving anything Lebron does. I will never see the day where i open a thread which is arguing over something concerning Lebron and see a majority of Lakers taking the pro-lebron route for it. I even have a close Laker fan friend who even admits to this, if we are are ever arguing about Lebron his arguement is always, "Dude, i'm a Lakers fan.".

1- most fans here are young, and have an attachment to Kobe as their childhood idol
2- Laker/Kobe fans fear the fact that barring LeBron getting hit by a car, he will pass their boy, and there is nothing they can do to stop it, so they do anything possible to discredit him

Demon11
02-24-2013, 10:09 PM
1- most fans here are young, and have an attachment to Kobe as their childhood idol
2- Laker/Kobe fans fear the fact that barring LeBron getting hit by a car, he will pass their boy, and there is nothing they can do to stop it, so they do anything possible to discredit him

I do agree, but I won't dismiss the objectivity it brings because of it. Although is does bring interesting reads, and entertainment, so I guess i'll take the good with the bad.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 10:10 PM
I do agree, but I won't dismiss the objectivity it brings because of it. Although is does bring interesting reads, and entertainment, so I guess i'll take the good with the bad.

for sure. LeBron has a ways to go, but unless something bad happens, it won't be a very objective argument in 5 years. For now, it is, no doubt.

ManRam
02-24-2013, 11:10 PM
The bottom line is Lebrons stats are inflated because of the rules of the today's nba.

OK! Cool! If you say so!

Screw any sort of evidence that suggests the opposite. We'll just take your obviously unbiased word for it!

justinnum1
02-24-2013, 11:15 PM
The bottom line is Lebrons stats are inflated because of the rules of the today's nba.
:facepalm:

ManRam
02-24-2013, 11:20 PM
Even if that Kobephile was right, who cares?

He's still dominating his peers unlike anyone we've seen since Jordan. No one has been the clear #1 player for this long, including their boy Kobe...who arguably was only that for maybe a season.

Purple_n_Gold
02-24-2013, 11:27 PM
Even if that Kobephile was right, who cares?

He's still dominating his peers unlike anyone we've seen since Jordan. No one has been the clear #1 player for this long, including their boy Kobe...who arguably was only that for maybe a season.
Maybe one season. You must have started watching basketball yesterday. Love him or hate him that is an idiotic statement that I assume you are basing on his MVP year. If you haven't noticed MVP is also a popularity contest among media. I think you need to go watch some basketball before the year 2012.

Guppyfighter
02-24-2013, 11:28 PM
Maybe one season. You must have started watching basketball yesterday. Love him or hate him that is an idiotic statement that I assume you are basing on his MVP year. If you haven't noticed MVP is also a popularity contest among media. I think you need to go watch some basketball before the year 2012.

Oh look. A Laker fan saying something stupid that involves Kobe. Color me shocked.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 11:28 PM
Maybe one season. You must have started watching basketball yesterday. Love him or hate him that is an idiotic statement that I assume you are basing on his MVP year. If you haven't noticed MVP is also a popularity contest among media. I think you need to go watch some basketball before the year 2012.

one season? LeBron has had multiple seasons better than anything Kobe has individually ever put forth statistically.

ManRam
02-24-2013, 11:35 PM
Maybe one season. You must have started watching basketball yesterday. Love him or hate him that is an idiotic statement that I assume you are basing on his MVP year. If you haven't noticed MVP is also a popularity contest among media. I think you need to go watch some basketball before the year 2012.

When people tell other people to "go watch basketball" it usually means they have no way to prove what they're saying.


Allow me to quote myself from an old thread. Since I, unlike many, have no problem backing up my claims!

Thread named: How many years was Kobe the best player in the NBA?


I don't think he can be in the conversation until about 2003-2004. He wasn't even the best player on his team until then. The last year Shaq was in LA, Kobe was arguably as good, if not better than Shaq. I don't think he was, but I wouldn't totally shoot down the argument.

I fully believe KG was the best player in basketball in the 03-04 season.

Then come the Steve Nash MVPs. I don't think many people will stand behind him being the best player those two years.

04-05 was probably one of Kobe's worst years in his prime, if not his worst (I think it was). I won't for a second buy that he was the best player that year. KG, Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, even Amare and Nash etc. were all probably better. Kobe was a 3rd team All-NBA player that year.

05-06 was probably his best individual year. The team wasn't great though. Team success is why so many people regard Kobe so highly, so it might be a bit of a double standard here. I don't care about rings as much as most, so I won't knock him here. His team sucked; no player could win with that.

I think you could argue that Dirk (lead league in WS) or LeBron were better that year, and do so easily, but I'll give Kobe the benefit of the doubt.

06-07 is the year LeBron started getting buzz as being the best player with his Finals run with a really poor supporting cast. Dirk AGAIN lead the league in win shares, LeBron again was second. Duncan had a phenomenal season, and I give him the best player nod this season, especially with his championship. It's between him and Dirk (deserving MVP).

07-08 LeBron is charging again. This was Chris Paul's year though. He deserved the MVP without a doubt. Kobe won because his career deserved an MVP, but Paul was the best player easily. Lead the league in win shares and WS/48. Second in PER. Amazingly efficient scoring. Amazing defense (4 steals a game). Insane passing numbers. Took a weak cast to a game 7 vs. SA. Boston won it all.

08-09 you get Kobe winning again, but you have LeBron basically as the universally considered best player in the league. Some won't buy into it, but it's hard to look objectively and see otherwise. He carried a weak cast to the best record in the NBA and a trip to the ECF. Kobe did win, and I know winning makes you better than you are, so if you want to say he was the best this year, go ahead. He wasn't though. LeBron James was putting up some of the most gaudy numbers we've ever seen. Insane PER and WS numbers. Amazing PPG/RPG/APG numbers as well.

09-10 same thing as the year before. LeBron is the best player, Kobe won the ring.

10-11 Not a chance in hell he was the best.


I have one year. I'll accept up to 2-3. Maybe 4. Anything more and it's a bit of a stretch IMO.


Another fun post from that thread!


I'm adding a poll, because I can

Feel free to read any of my comments in that thread: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/search.php?searchid=79876


I mean, the MVP award can be dumb, but Kobe did ONLY win 1. So me saying he was only the best player for 1 year at the very least doesn't warrant insults

If you have more questions, let me know. I can go more in depth year-by-year if so needed!

More-Than-Most
02-24-2013, 11:43 PM
James will go down as the best player ever. Not Joking. He in his prime is the more unstoppable player too

Cal827
02-24-2013, 11:50 PM
I haven't done one of these in a while, so I'll just randomly say it:

Lebron James will be better than Michael Jordan when it's all said and done. TROLOLOL, Come at me Bulls fans :box:

bucketss
02-25-2013, 12:05 AM
will you ever back up your opinion with facts? Isn't this the same era your hero played in?

wouldn't expect that from him hes a slightly worse amos1er and a little better than nickdymes.. all cut from the same cloth.

Guppyfighter
02-25-2013, 12:06 AM
I haven't done one of these in a while, so I'll just randomly say it:

Lebron James will be better than Michael Jordan when it's all said and done. TROLOLOL, Come at me Bulls fans :box:

You are going to get more Laker fans.

bucketss
02-25-2013, 12:08 AM
I haven't done one of these in a while, so I'll just randomly say it:

Lebron James will be better than Michael Jordan when it's all said and done. TROLOLOL, Come at me Bulls fans :box:

sad part is this would offend the kobephiles way more than any bulls fan:laugh2:

JEDean89
02-25-2013, 12:13 AM
this is why i don't like comparing trans generation. guys like wilt chamberlain were spectacular players but come on do you think he scores 100 points in a single game today? i simply accept that some players were the greatest of their time and that is the highest honor you can now achieve in the nba, being the greatest of your generation. i'm sorry but it was kind of a race to the GOAT, once it was achieved, it would never be beaten. Lebron could be the better player when it's all said and done but here are things Jordan has that Lebron never will. Here are some things about Jordan that just can't be replicated.

- Jordan created the most popular basketball # when he donned the #23, #6 is cool, but no one will ever again make a number as popular as 23 just because he wore it.

- Jordan played for one Franchise his entire career and was honored for that. Very few players today can stay with one team their entire career. So far, players over 30 that have stayed with their teams are Dirk, Kobe, Pierce, Wade, Duncan. There will be plenty more guys who do it but the odds of a guy being up for GOAT debate and staying with his team makes it harder.

- Jordan was better looking and much, much more marketable than Lebron. Lebron is a scary looking dude and lacks charisma. Jordan was the NBA's golden boy, Lebron the villain still to many. This is a stark contrast and public opinion weighs heavy on GOAT debate. Jordan is the GOAT because he is the most celebrated player ever, not just because of his success. Lebron could win 7 rings and not be as celebrated as Jordan.

- Jordan beat all the established dynasties before him in the playoffs. The Bird Celtics, the Showtime Lakers, the Bad Boy Pistons, these were teams that won multiple chips and all fell to Jordan. Lebron hasn't really signaled the end of a Dynasty, last year the NBA was up for grabs with the Mavs, Lakers, Celtics and Spurs all showing their age. If Lebron had beaten the celtics in 2010 and then the Lakers in the Finals it would have been a much more impressive rise to the throne.

- Jordan had spectacular luck, yes luck, in the playoffs that made for some of the best theater in sports history. How many guys get to retire after making the last shot of the NBA finals while pulling off the 2nd 3 peat. I mean come on, it couldn't have been scripted any better, a spectacular buzzer beating jumper wtf.

This **** is just bullcrap for any player to ever try and overcome. The timing was right for Jordan, he was on the right team with the right coach and the right supporting cast. Jordan also was almost single handidly responsible for Basketball becoming the international phenomenon that it is today. The ratings when he played were ridiculously high and when he retired it literally took the Big 3 in Miami to get the ratings back. It is impressive of Lebron but for just about everything Lebron accomplishes that Jordan did Jordan will always have the I did it first. In the end I think the only way Lebron goes down as the greatest is if he is so ridiculously good statistically that you just can't argue against it. Like if he gets 10 rings, gets the all time scoring record, another 5 MVP's, beats out Kobe's all time playoff scoring record, averages a triple double for a season. Become the only player to be top 5 in Rebounding, Assists, Scoring. And finish his career shooting over 53% from the floor and 40% from 3. If he can do that **** he will be the GOAT. But like is said Jordan set the bar so god damn high that the most I think anyone can do is match it, and even then Jordan did it first.

IKnowHoops
02-25-2013, 12:18 AM
The pace was faster back then. Rule changes have made this league laughable. The euro league makes the nba look cotton soft.

So less Defense now, but slower pace now, so its all evened out. If Lebron brakes any records there all legit. And if there not, just think how pitiful everyone elses numbers right now are then. Lebron is still a man among boys.

bucketss
02-25-2013, 12:30 AM
So less Defense now, but slower pace now, so its all evened out. If Lebron brakes any records there all legit. And if there not, just think how pitiful everyone elses numbers right now are then. Lebron is still a man among boys.

funny thing is... his boy kobe played in the same cotton soft league lol, but he will tell you kobe just made it before the league became soft. so bascally 2004-2010 when kobe was dominating the league was hard, 2011-2013 it magically turned soft.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-25-2013, 12:46 AM
lol @ the only negative things i've read about lebron come from one particular team's fan base. typical.

Demon11
02-25-2013, 12:49 AM
this is why i don't like comparing trans generation. guys like wilt chamberlain were spectacular players but come on do you think he scores 100 points in a single game today? i simply accept that some players were the greatest of their time and that is the highest honor you can now achieve in the nba, being the greatest of your generation. i'm sorry but it was kind of a race to the GOAT, once it was achieved, it would never be beaten. Lebron could be the better player when it's all said and done but here are things Jordan has that Lebron never will. Here are some things about Jordan that just can't be replicated.

- Jordan created the most popular basketball # when he donned the #23, #6 is cool, but no one will ever again make a number as popular as 23 just because he wore it.

- Jordan played for one Franchise his entire career and was honored for that. Very few players today can stay with one team their entire career. So far, players over 30 that have stayed with their teams are Dirk, Kobe, Pierce, Wade, Duncan. There will be plenty more guys who do it but the odds of a guy being up for GOAT debate and staying with his team makes it harder.

- Jordan was better looking and much, much more marketable than Lebron. Lebron is a scary looking dude and lacks charisma. Jordan was the NBA's golden boy, Lebron the villain still to many. This is a stark contrast and public opinion weighs heavy on GOAT debate. Jordan is the GOAT because he is the most celebrated player ever, not just because of his success. Lebron could win 7 rings and not be as celebrated as Jordan.

- Jordan beat all the established dynasties before him in the playoffs. The Bird Celtics, the Showtime Lakers, the Bad Boy Pistons, these were teams that won multiple chips and all fell to Jordan. Lebron hasn't really signaled the end of a Dynasty, last year the NBA was up for grabs with the Mavs, Lakers, Celtics and Spurs all showing their age. If Lebron had beaten the celtics in 2010 and then the Lakers in the Finals it would have been a much more impressive rise to the throne.

- Jordan had spectacular luck, yes luck, in the playoffs that made for some of the best theater in sports history. How many guys get to retire after making the last shot of the NBA finals while pulling off the 2nd 3 peat. I mean come on, it couldn't have been scripted any better, a spectacular buzzer beating jumper wtf.

This **** is just bullcrap for any player to ever try and overcome. The timing was right for Jordan, he was on the right team with the right coach and the right supporting cast. Jordan also was almost single handidly responsible for Basketball becoming the international phenomenon that it is today. The ratings when he played were ridiculously high and when he retired it literally took the Big 3 in Miami to get the ratings back. It is impressive of Lebron but for just about everything Lebron accomplishes that Jordan did Jordan will always have the I did it first. In the end I think the only way Lebron goes down as the greatest is if he is so ridiculously good statistically that you just can't argue against it. Like if he gets 10 rings, gets the all time scoring record, another 5 MVP's, beats out Kobe's all time playoff scoring record, averages a triple double for a season. Become the only player to be top 5 in Rebounding, Assists, Scoring. And finish his career shooting over 53% from the floor and 40% from 3. If he can do that **** he will be the GOAT. But like is said Jordan set the bar so god damn high that the most I think anyone can do is match it, and even then Jordan did it first.

That's nice and all, but this extremely objective analysis doesn't work with "Greatest of all time", in the general sense of how they can play basketball. Will Jordan remain the biggest legend? Probably, considering the mysteriousness of him being an ******* pretty much propelled him there. Lebron's kinda funny in that he's pretty down to earth (in comparison), so he doesn't capture that mysteriousness Jordan attained.

tdg823
02-25-2013, 01:24 AM
Defensive rules favor wing players much more in lebron AND kobe's time much more so than Jordans.

Defenses are much worse nowadays, but the pace is so slow.

Perimeter shooting is probably up because the defense and fundamentals suck today (don't close out hard, don't put a hand up consistently, pet peeve of mine nowadays... if you move your feet to get there, put the hand up for christmas sake)

Lebron has a much bigger athletic advantage than Jordan did in his day (remember Lebron is exactly the same size as Karl Malone, show me a guy that big in Jordan's time that was a truly exceptional athlete), it seems silly to me to debate that point.

There are no big men/paint protectors today. Jordan went to the hole against Hakeem, Ewing, a young shaq, david Robinson, Mutumbo, Mark Eaton, hell even Shawn Bradley and Manute Bol protect the rim better than 95% of the league today. Add to that that Lebron is the same size as those guys in the paint today. Jordan gave up 5-7" and 60+ pounds against those guys (with more favorable defensive rules)

Discuss what he's doing presently, but don't distort the past. And I am not a Lakers fan.

tdg823
02-25-2013, 01:38 AM
And yes Jordan got favorable calls just like Lebron does, but not until he'd been in the league for years busting people's ***es. He made them respect (if that's what you call that type of inconsistency) him, he didn't get pampered from the beginning. (I know that'll ruffle some feathers, sorry. All the stars get calls, it's a fact of sports, the bigger the star the better the treatment.) I know Lebron isn't getting AS many calls this year, but we're speaking of their entire body of work and Lebron has been VERY well taken care of for the vast majority of his career. And before you say he's getting shafted on calls this year, please don't forget his what 2 weeks without a foul. I know, I know he's just that special to some of you, he didn't deserve to be called for fouls because he's the ****. And yes Kobe was just as pampered for awhile, the league just doesn't need him as it's poster boy anymore. But deal with my earlier post first for those of you that disagree, this battle here has been fought too many times, there is no convincing either side.

Jeffy25
02-25-2013, 01:50 AM
Would you recognize it as being legitimately broken? The no touch rules now give fast perimeter players much more of an advantage than Jordan had in his era. I personally wouldn't unless it was blown away because I'm certain Jordan would have abused a no touch league.


Jordan was also able to push off his opponents while dribbling, something Lebron and today's players can't.

tdg823
02-25-2013, 02:40 AM
Jordan's pushoffs were later in his career, that's what I meant about him being pampered as well, just not from the beginning. Lebron had that stiff arm/forearm shiver that he perfected in Cleveland. It was his signature move more so than his crab dribble.

Hawkeye15
02-25-2013, 03:02 AM
I do love how people ignore Jordan's karate chops on bigs he was finishing on, clearly an offensive foul. Watch any highlight video, he literally rapes any attempt to stop his dunk. But, whatever.

Jimmer55
02-25-2013, 03:10 AM
I guarantee most of you, if not all, have no idea how to even calculate PER if I gave you a bunch of rhetorical numbers. The way you determine greatness is pathetic.

Hawkeye15
02-25-2013, 03:12 AM
I guarantee most of you, if not all, have no idea how to even calculate PER if I gave you a bunch of rhetorical numbers. The way you determine greatness is pathetic.

who said PER is the way to determine greatness?

Jimmer55
02-25-2013, 03:14 AM
who said PER is the way to determine greatness?

Weak minded people will believe whatever they're told.

Hawkeye15
02-25-2013, 03:17 AM
Weak minded people will believe whatever they're told.

your point? Honestly, if you want to make a claim that people will use a specific stat to measure greatness, at least back it up dude.

Quinnsanity
02-25-2013, 03:18 AM
One thing nobody mentions and may mean nothing, but may mean something: PER didn't technically exist when Jordan was playing. Nobody cared about efficiency stats. Now they mean even more than counting stats, and LeBron is on record as saying that he thinks about advanced stats and efficiency. Are we entirely certain that MJ, the most competitive player of all time, wouldn't have done things to inflate his PER because that was the stat every one cared about at the time? For example, MJ averaged over 24 shots per game in '87-88 compared to LeBron's 18. Are we sure MJ wouldn't have cut down on the bad shots a bit and tried to inflate his assist numbers just to have some sort of absurd 35 PER season go down in the record books? I don't know for sure, but I think we should at least talk about. What we know for sure though, is that if Wilt knew about PER he would memorize the formula and do everything possible to have one record setting year in it like he did with assists.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-25-2013, 03:26 AM
You people do realize that OP is probably a dupe right?

Guppyfighter
02-25-2013, 03:28 AM
One thing nobody mentions and may mean nothing, but may mean something: PER didn't technically exist when Jordan was playing. Nobody cared about efficiency stats. Now they mean even more than counting stats, and LeBron is on record as saying that he thinks about advanced stats and efficiency. Are we entirely certain that MJ, the most competitive player of all time, wouldn't have done things to inflate his PER because that was the stat every one cared about at the time? For example, MJ averaged over 24 shots per game in '87-88 compared to LeBron's 18. Are we sure MJ wouldn't have cut down on the bad shots a bit and tried to inflate his assist numbers just to have some sort of absurd 35 PER season go down in the record books? I don't know for sure, but I think we should at least talk about. What we know for sure though, is that if Wilt knew about PER he would memorize the formula and do everything possible to have one record setting year in it like he did with assists.


Taking more shots actually inflates PER. It rewards gunners, low inefficient scorers. Nick Young, Monta Ellis.

IKnowHoops
02-25-2013, 03:34 AM
They are both awesome players. There is no need to tear down Lebron by saying why this era is easier than the last era. Less bigs now, but much more athletic wing players now that would of been harder for Jordan to score on and defend. It all evens out. Overall, the athletes are better today. Lebron would have eaten up the League in Jordans era too. Jordan even said as much. Not that I care what comes out of Jordans mouth though.

xRipCity
02-25-2013, 02:11 PM
This argument will never be put to rest. Not even in 100 years. The fact of the matter is they play different positions and played in different generations and therefore a REAL and TRUE comparison is very difficult. Here's some advantages of each player that I see:

LeBron -
More efficient (due to his ability to contribute in nearly every category at any time)
Better defender
Better post up player
Better and more willing passer
Better physical stature

Jordan -
More dominant (KEY)
Better clutch player
Better scorer
Pure winner (better attitude/confidence)

When it comes down to it, if I wanted a ring, I'd take Jordan over LeBron.
If LeBron had Jordan's confidence and attitude towards the game.... LeBron would be the GOAT no doubt.

hidalgo
02-25-2013, 05:11 PM
obviously playoff PER is more important, & i doubt LeBron will beat MJ's playoff PER

Freakazoid
02-25-2013, 06:39 PM
obviously playoff PER is more important, & i doubt LeBron will beat MJ's playoff PER

He already did. People forget how good Lebron was in Cleveland. He averaged 37.4 PER that year in playoffs.

I think the whole ESPN hoopla ruined Lebron's legacy. People will always bring up LeBrick and "Robin to Batman" etc but none of that is remotely true. Lebron was ridiculously good in Cleveland.

DJHUFF2000
02-25-2013, 09:09 PM
No disrespect intended here,but Jordan was 0-6 vs Bird's Celtics(86 & 87 playoffs swept both years,1-3 vs the Bad Boy Pistons,and the Lakers they beat in 91 did not have Kareem and Michael Cooper.
this is why i don't like comparing trans generation. guys like wilt chamberlain were spectacular players but come on do you think he scores 100 points in a single game today? i simply accept that some players were the greatest of their time and that is the highest honor you can now achieve in the nba, being the greatest of your generation. i'm sorry but it was kind of a race to the GOAT, once it was achieved, it would never be beaten. Lebron could be the better player when it's all said and done but here are things Jordan has that Lebron never will. Here are some things about Jordan that just can't be replicated.

- Jordan created the most popular basketball # when he donned the #23, #6 is cool, but no one will ever again make a number as popular as 23 just because he wore it.

- Jordan played for one Franchise his entire career and was honored for that. Very few players today can stay with one team their entire career. So far, players over 30 that have stayed with their teams are Dirk, Kobe, Pierce, Wade, Duncan. There will be plenty more guys who do it but the odds of a guy being up for GOAT debate and staying with his team makes it harder.

- Jordan was better looking and much, much more marketable than Lebron. Lebron is a scary looking dude and lacks charisma. Jordan was the NBA's golden boy, Lebron the villain still to many. This is a stark contrast and public opinion weighs heavy on GOAT debate. Jordan is the GOAT because he is the most celebrated player ever, not just because of his success. Lebron could win 7 rings and not be as celebrated as Jordan.

- Jordan beat all the established dynasties before him in the playoffs. The Bird Celtics, the Showtime Lakers, the Bad Boy Pistons, these were teams that won multiple chips and all fell to Jordan. Lebron hasn't really signaled the end of a Dynasty, last year the NBA was up for grabs with the Mavs, Lakers, Celtics and Spurs all showing their age. If Lebron had beaten the celtics in 2010 and then the Lakers in the Finals it would have been a much more impressive rise to the throne.

- Jordan had spectacular luck, yes luck, in the playoffs that made for some of the best theater in sports history. How many guys get to retire after making the last shot of the NBA finals while pulling off the 2nd 3 peat. I mean come on, it couldn't have been scripted any better, a spectacular buzzer beating jumper wtf.

This **** is just bullcrap for any player to ever try and overcome. The timing was right for Jordan, he was on the right team with the right coach and the right supporting cast. Jordan also was almost single handidly responsible for Basketball becoming the international phenomenon that it is today. The ratings when he played were ridiculously high and when he retired it literally took the Big 3 in Miami to get the ratings back. It is impressive of Lebron but for just about everything Lebron accomplishes that Jordan did Jordan will always have the I did it first. In the end I think the only way Lebron goes down as the greatest is if he is so ridiculously good statistically that you just can't argue against it. Like if he gets 10 rings, gets the all time scoring record, another 5 MVP's, beats out Kobe's all time playoff scoring record, averages a triple double for a season. Become the only player to be top 5 in Rebounding, Assists, Scoring. And finish his career shooting over 53% from the floor and 40% from 3. If he can do that **** he will be the GOAT. But like is said Jordan set the bar so god damn high that the most I think anyone can do is match it, and even then Jordan did it first.

smiddy012
02-25-2013, 10:43 PM
This argument will never be put to rest. Not even in 100 years. The fact of the matter is they play different positions and played in different generations and therefore a REAL and TRUE comparison is very difficult. Here's some advantages of each player that I see:

LeBron -
More efficient (due to his ability to contribute in nearly every category at any time)
Better defender
Better post up player
Better and more willing passer
Better physical stature

Jordan -
More dominant (KEY)
Better clutch player
Better scorer
Pure winner (better attitude/confidence)

When it comes down to it, if I wanted a ring, I'd take Jordan over LeBron.
If LeBron had Jordan's confidence and attitude towards the game.... LeBron would be the GOAT no doubt.

Just a small critique, but whether or not Lebron is a better post-up player than Jordan is debatable, this is the first year Lebron actually has been good at it, while MJ is considered the best post-up SG of all time. Otherwise I agree with your sentiment, even though Lebron never won DMVP (and MJ did), SF/PF still has a much bigger impact defensively than SG.

JEDean89
02-25-2013, 10:49 PM
That's nice and all, but this extremely objective analysis doesn't work with "Greatest of all time", in the general sense of how they can play basketball. Will Jordan remain the biggest legend? Probably, considering the mysteriousness of him being an ******* pretty much propelled him there. Lebron's kinda funny in that he's pretty down to earth (in comparison), so he doesn't capture that mysteriousness Jordan attained.

my point is that the greatest of all time is always going to be a subjective conversation. if it's rings its Russell, if its stats it's Kareem. Yet Jordan is still considered the greatest, i think it was because he was the most beloved. Lebron will need to accomplish monumental achievements to become the GOAT. I just think Jordan had such a ridiculously storied career it will be almost impossible to dethrone him.

Steelers23_06
02-25-2013, 11:06 PM
Why does everyone always bring up hand checking but fail to recognize zone wasn't a legal defense until 2002. If lebron had to go one on one against players his numbers would be through the roof. Same thing with KD. Those two players are impossible to guard even when your throwing the kitchen sink at them. Imagine if u had to stick one player on lebron for the whole game...its just impossible. I say 36 ppg 9 apg 9 rpg. That's with me factoring in the fact they played at a faster rate then too. Jordan wouldn't put up such godly numbers if he was hit with the crazy zones they have today. Defensive schemes are wayyyy more complicated now than back then.

Sactown
02-25-2013, 11:12 PM
Why does everyone always bring up hand checking but fail to recognize zone wasn't a legal defense until 2002. If lebron had to go one on one against players his numbers would be through the roof. Same thing with KD. Those two players are impossible to guard even when your throwing the kitchen sink at them. Imagine if u had to stick one player on lebron for the whole game...its just impossible. I say 36 ppg 9 apg 9 rpg. That's with me factoring in the fact they played at a faster rate then too. Jordan wouldn't put up such godly numbers if he was hit with the crazy zones they have today. Defensive schemes are wayyyy more complicated now than back then.
Scouting is also so much more advanced now.

smiddy012
02-25-2013, 11:12 PM
No disrespect intended here,but Jordan was 0-6 vs Bird's Celtics(86 & 87 playoffs swept both years,1-3 vs the Bad Boy Pistons,and the Lakers they beat in 91 did not have Kareem and Michael Cooper.

What's your point?

In 86 the Bulls record was 30-52, and 64 of those games MJ was injured. What does it tell us about MJ that, with his poor cast, that he could not single-handily beat a team that is unanimously considered one of the greatest of all time? Nothing. It just tells us that basketball is a team game. Jordan set the still-unbroken record for points in a playoff game with 63 in Game 2, and they still got swept.

Do yourself a favor and compare the 86 & 87 Bulls roster to the 86 & 87 Celtics. It's laughable how incomparable they are. Also, look at HOW Detroit beat MJ, look at their "Jordan Rules," look at the footage of how physical they were. They routinely committed fouls on MJ that were flagrants and technicals today. I cannot hypothesize how Lebron would do under those rules, but I sure as heck can hypothesize how MJ would do under today's rules, and today's rules would have not allowed the Piston's "MJ Rules" to be fruitful.

MJ was 24-0 with HCA in playoff series by the way.

Jimmer55
02-25-2013, 11:13 PM
I was browsing and I saw someone say Lebron was a better defender and post up player than Michael Jeffrey Jordan...

Needless to say, I will never open this thread again.

Steelers23_06
02-25-2013, 11:25 PM
I was browsing and I saw someone say Lebron was a better defender and post up player than Michael Jeffrey Jordan...

Needless to say, I will never open this thread again.

Lebron is a better low post player due to his size and strength. You really should watch some of his games this season and you'll see. But high post is mj all day mainly because his post fadeaway. But mid range lebron plays more iso then post anyway.

smiddy012
02-25-2013, 11:30 PM
I was browsing and I saw someone say Lebron was a better defender and post up player than Michael Jeffrey Jordan...

Needless to say, I will never open this thread again.

Yeah... I just looked at the stats...

In 86-87 MJ became the first player in NBA history to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season with 236/125. The next season he had 259/131. Last season Lebron had 158/66... lol Lebron's best is 160/105 and that was 08-09.

In their prime, MJ is CLEARLY the far better defensive player statistically, even though he had the disadvantage of being a SG, and not a SF. And even if you look at their career BPG averages, they're the same, and Lebron's BPG is only going to go down as he ages.

smiddy012
02-25-2013, 11:32 PM
Lebron is a better low post player due to his size and strength. You really should watch some of his games this season and you'll see. But high post is mj all day mainly because his post fadeaway. But mid range lebron plays more iso then post anyway.

Just because Lebron finally has ONE season with post-up numbers that are comparable to MJ's career post-up numbers does not make Lebron a better post-up player simply because he is "bigger and stronger." Based on that logic Lebron should be a better defensive player, and if you reference the stats, he clearly isn't, by a large margin.

smiddy012
02-25-2013, 11:49 PM
Why does everyone always bring up hand checking but fail to recognize zone wasn't a legal defense until 2002. If lebron had to go one on one against players his numbers would be through the roof. Same thing with KD. Those two players are impossible to guard even when your throwing the kitchen sink at them. Imagine if u had to stick one player on lebron for the whole game...its just impossible. I say 36 ppg 9 apg 9 rpg. That's with me factoring in the fact they played at a faster rate then too. Jordan wouldn't put up such godly numbers if he was hit with the crazy zones they have today. Defensive schemes are wayyyy more complicated now than back then.

You are you implying that, without zone defense, teams could not and did not double or triple team players. And that is complete BS. Shows how little you know about basketball in the 80s and 90s.

tdg823
02-25-2013, 11:50 PM
Head and shoulders above Lebron on defense and in the post

3RDASYSTEM
02-25-2013, 11:51 PM
then Wilt was the greatest rebounder ever, despite Rodman's rebound rate being stronger. You are measured across the line, not just by some definition an individual makes. Advanced stats make it easier to level the playing field as far as pace and rule changes. Have you accounted for defenses being better now?

Does anyone actually think LeBron wouldnt have been just fine back then, and played with the same results? He is a tank.

Right on point

RODMAN/WILT would have rebounded in any era of nba/aba history, BRON can do this in any era of nba/aba, along with the other top 19 'best' players in aba/nba history

Rule changes have been going on since ALCINDOR days and til this day and in between so its nothing new

I wonder does LOBO think since JORDAN's BULLs won 72 during expansion team time, does that diminish that record? due to those expansion 'rules' since it did water down the league just a tad

tdg823
02-25-2013, 11:58 PM
And you guys forget, back in the day After Lebron mean mugged the whole front row after a wide open dunk in the first quarter
Rick Mahorn would've clotheslined him and Lebron would have stayed in the locker room for the second half.

All jokes aside they would've broken that guy like the Russian did in that Rocky movie, his psyche is too fragile

smiddy012
02-26-2013, 12:10 AM
That's nice and all, but this extremely objective analysis doesn't work with "Greatest of all time", in the general sense of how they can play basketball. Will Jordan remain the biggest legend? Probably, considering the mysteriousness of him being an ******* pretty much propelled him there. Lebron's kinda funny in that he's pretty down to earth (in comparison), so he doesn't capture that mysteriousness Jordan attained.

Ummmm... really? How old are you, 12?

So guaranteeing 8 rings before you even have one is down to earth? Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds?

So literally QUITTING on your team during a playoff series is what someone who is "down to earth" does? Funny to me how all the Lebron band-wagoners overlook (or never watched) the Celtics series before he left Cleveland. I watched every game and he literally gave up on his teammates, in-game! He had already left Cleveland before the series was even over.

You're the one who thinks being "down to earth" is a good thing, so the jokes on you.

Steelers23_06
02-26-2013, 12:13 AM
You are you implying that, without zone defense, teams could not and did not double or triple team players. And that is complete BS. Shows how little you know about basketball in the 80s and 90s.

That shows how little you know about basketball in general if you think a double is comparible to a zone. They are complete opposites lol. And it is not debatable that lebron is the better passer so with players doubling him instead of shift from pg to center as he drives he'd dish to the open man everytime his apg would be higher and points would be too.

And people look at Jordan at the beginning if his career as being roughed up everyone says "he was ALWAYS roughed up". Commonnnnn lets be real after Jordan hit that megastar persona he was untouchable. You think the NBA was risking losing their money tree...we are talking about the same David Stern right?

Steelers23_06
02-26-2013, 12:21 AM
Ummmm... really? How old are you, 12?

So guaranteeing 8 rings before you even have one is down to earth? Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds?

So literally QUITTING on your team during a playoff series is what someone who is "down to earth" does? Funny to me how all the Lebron band-wagoners overlook (or never watched) the Celtics series before he left Cleveland. I watched every game and he literally gave up on his teammates, in-game! He had already left Cleveland before the series was even over.

You're the one who thinks being "down to earth" is a good thing, so the jokes on you.

27 pts 19 rebounds 10 assists is quitting? Damn that shows how great he really is. Lol if that's any other player that put up that statline he gets praised for doing all he can do but since bron is so great you expect him to carry his team over a superior team simply because he's the better player. That was never asked of Jordan any of his championship years. If you go back they were the favorites in every series every season they won. The cavs beating the c's was not guaranteed that year with a lot of analysts choosing Boston.

smiddy012
02-26-2013, 12:36 AM
That shows how little you know about basketball in general if you think a double is comparible to a zone. They are complete opposites lol.


Why does everyone always bring up hand checking but fail to recognize zone wasn't a legal defense until 2002. If lebron had to go one on one against players his numbers would be through the roof. Same thing with KD. Those two players are impossible to guard even when your throwing the kitchen sink at them. Imagine if u had to stick one player on lebron for the whole game...its just impossible.

Are you really so uneducated as to not realize how this is implying (the words you wrote) that those who did not have to deal with the zone had the benefit of 1 on 1 matchups? Kid, you need to focus more in English class.


And it is not debatable that lebron is the better passer so with players doubling him instead of shift from pg to center as he drives he'd dish to the open man everytime his apg would be higher and points would be too.

Want to know what happened when Jordan was shifted to PG in 89-90? He had 10 triple doubles in 11 games, averaging 33.6/10.8/11.4.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/10741/2013/02/michael-jordans-streak-of-10-triple-doubles-in-11-games/

MJ wasn't the best passer in NBA history, he was the best scorer. That's why he was a SG, and not a PG, even though he would have also been the best PG in history also, where his APG numbers would have been more along the lines cited above.


And people look at Jordan at the beginning if his career as being roughed up everyone says "he was ALWAYS roughed up". Commonnnnn lets be real after Jordan hit that megastar persona he was untouchable. You think the NBA was risking losing their money tree...we are talking about the same David Stern right?

1991: 8.2 FTA
1992: 7.4 FTA
1993: 7.3 FTA
1996: 8.0 FTA
1997: 7.0 FTA
1998: 8.8 FTA (this was the only year of his career I thought he was getting a bit too much love from the refs)

Jordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.


Continue making an *** out of yourself if you please.

smiddy012
02-26-2013, 12:43 AM
27 pts 19 rebounds 10 assists is quitting? Damn that shows how great he really is. Lol if that's any other player that put up that statline he gets praised for doing all he can do but since bron is so great you expect him to carry his team over a superior team simply because he's the better player. That was never asked of Jordan any of his championship years. If you go back they were the favorites in every series every season they won. The cavs beating the c's was not guaranteed that year with a lot of analysts choosing Boston.

There are two scenarios here:

Either:

A - You didn't watch the series or...

B - You watched the series, and were too young and/or psychologically/observationally challenged to recognize the change in Lebron's assertiveness, aggression, and mentality.

He clearly gave up on his team in that series. He went from "taking the bull by the horns" to deferring to team-mates saying "here, show me why I should stay" mid-series. I suggest you watch the Cavs/Celts series in order. Actually, watch how Lebron played the Bulls the series before that one too. Focus on Lebron and his aggressiveness, and if you're able to do so, you will realize that there was a drastic change in his pace and mentality during the Celtic series.

Steelers23_06
02-26-2013, 01:12 AM
There are two scenarios here:

Either:

A - You didn't watch the series or...

B - You watched the series, and were too young and/or psychologically/observationally challenged to recognize the change in Lebron's assertiveness, aggression, and mentality.

He clearly gave up on his team in that series. He went from "taking the bull by the horns" to deferring to team-mates saying "here, show me why I should stay" mid-series. I suggest you watch the Cavs/Celts series in order. Actually, watch how Lebron played the Bulls the series before that one too. Focus on Lebron and his aggressiveness, and if you're able to do so, you will realize that there was a drastic change in his pace and mentality during the Celtic series.

I agree to a certain extent. He wanted his teammates to prove their worth. And I think he definitely proved his point. U think he would have numbers like that and he's teammates wouldn't respond. But to say he gave up is the worst thing to say because numbers like that isn't giving up. No matter how you cut it boston was the better team across the board and if lebron had even one other legitimate all star he wins that series.

stawka
02-26-2013, 01:18 AM
Only if LeBron breaks the record, or ANY record, it shouldn't count.

If it was Kobe, KD, Rose... It DEFINITELY stands, but not
LeBron!

mngopher35
02-26-2013, 01:25 AM
I disagree that he gave up for an entire series, although he did seem to "give up" for one game to me. He was far outmatched in series like that with the cavs and defenses smothered him. His statistics that series match up very well compared to kobe's vs the celtics in the finals and he won f-mvp. I don't think you should call someone out because they disagree that a player gave up on his team while recording a triple double in the last game.

Chronz
02-26-2013, 02:50 AM
Its easier to look assertive when the opposition isn't as equipped to load up on you. Bron took out the Pistons because they no longer had Ben IIRC.

THE MTL
02-26-2013, 03:53 AM
Would you recognize it as being legitimately broken? The no touch rules now give fast perimeter players much more of an advantage than Jordan had in his era. I personally wouldn't unless it was blown away because I'm certain Jordan would have abused a no touch league.

I dont know Jordan's PER but that 1989 season. No way anyone comes comes close to that greatness.

32.5ppg 8.0apg 8.0rpg 3spg 53.8%FG 85% FT is RIDICULOUS!

hidalgo
02-26-2013, 04:02 AM
He already did. People forget how good Lebron was in Cleveland. He averaged 37.4 PER that year in playoffs.

I think the whole ESPN hoopla ruined Lebron's legacy. People will always bring up LeBrick and "Robin to Batman" etc but none of that is remotely true. Lebron was ridiculously good in Cleveland.i mean for a full career, LeBron wll most likely not pass MJ in playoff PER. he has a chance at regular season PER though, a pretty good chance.

hidalgo
02-26-2013, 04:04 AM
I dont know Jordan's PER but that 1989 season. No way anyone comes comes close to that greatness.

32.5ppg 8.0apg 8.0rpg 3spg 53.8%FG 85% FT is RIDICULOUS!Michael should apologize for that season, that was just rude

Chronz
02-26-2013, 04:16 AM
I dont know Jordan's PER but that 1989 season. No way anyone comes comes close to that greatness.

32.5ppg 8.0apg 8.0rpg 3spg 53.8%FG 85% FT is RIDICULOUS!
It was his highest PER season I think, but it was by no means MJ's best season

Raps18-19 Champ
02-26-2013, 04:19 AM
It was his highest PER season I think, but it was by no means MJ's best season

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

Here. It wasn't even his highest PER. It was his 3rd highest.

Money_23
02-26-2013, 11:23 AM
if he does, no one who really knows basketball would care.

Jimmer55
02-26-2013, 11:42 AM
Brook Lopez is 5th in PER, I think. lol.

CruzControl
02-26-2013, 12:05 PM
Defenses are better now.

Is that a joke?

3RDASYSTEM
02-26-2013, 12:31 PM
If he does then im sure these EINSTEINs will make up something to either put him over JORDAN or slightly underneath

all media agenda regardless

kind of like that PER creation

its like JUDAS was to you know who, its just here to cause confusion

tdg823
02-26-2013, 12:35 PM
First judas reference I've seen here, points for originality at least

Guppyfighter
02-26-2013, 03:12 PM
Is that a joke?


Zone defenses weren't allowed. Defenses were a lot less complex and you could push off. Perfect for athletic freaks of nature.

koreancabbage
02-26-2013, 03:38 PM
Zone defenses weren't allowed. Defenses were a lot less complex and you could push off. Perfect for athletic freaks of nature.

but they implemented a 3 in the key for the defensive team in this day of basketball. Imagine big men just standing under the basket all game long. This was to improve the offensive scheme of basketball.

but its really hard to compare different eras of basketball.

Sactown
02-26-2013, 03:38 PM
Is that a joke?


Zone defenses weren't allowed. Defenses were a lot less complex and you could push off. Perfect for athletic freaks of nature. exactly plus scouting in todays game has advanced so much

Honestly todays game favors the Durants, Kmarts, Hardens of the league but hurts the bigger players

ManRam
02-26-2013, 04:26 PM
5 hours with literally nothing to do today at work...

This is what I did.

My look at whether we can legitimately compare LeBron's 2012-13 season to Jordan's modern-era PER record season. Yes, I'm a nerd. No, I'm not that smart either.

http://firmvolume.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/lebrons-individual-2012-2013-accolades-are-they-legitimate/

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-26-2013, 04:37 PM
OK! Cool! If you say so!

Screw any sort of evidence that suggests the opposite. We'll just take your obviously unbiased word for it!

I knew you would come around ;)

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-26-2013, 04:40 PM
I do love how people ignore Jordan's karate chops on bigs he was finishing on, clearly an offensive foul. Watch any highlight video, he literally rapes any attempt to stop his dunk. But, whatever.

Lebron trucks people! Lebron is an offensive foul machine hawkeye. The sad thing about is he gets the fouls in his favor.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-26-2013, 04:41 PM
who said PER is the way to determine greatness?

Every heat fan on psd!

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-26-2013, 04:43 PM
Why does everyone always bring up hand checking but fail to recognize zone wasn't a legal defense until 2002. If lebron had to go one on one against players his numbers would be through the roof. Same thing with KD. Those two players are impossible to guard even when your throwing the kitchen sink at them. Imagine if u had to stick one player on lebron for the whole game...its just impossible. I say 36 ppg 9 apg 9 rpg. That's with me factoring in the fact they played at a faster rate then too. Jordan wouldn't put up such godly numbers if he was hit with the crazy zones they have today. Defensive schemes are wayyyy more complicated now than back then.

So Lebron would average 36-9-9 in Jordans era? While Jordans numbers would drop in this era?:laugh2:

:facepalm:

JordansBulls
02-27-2013, 05:15 PM
Lebron's Game Scr in 2009 was a 24.3 and PER of 31.67 with MPG of 37.7
Lebron's Game Scr in 2010 was a 25.6 and PER of 31.11 with MPG of 39.0
Lebron's Game Scr in 2012 was a 22.9 and PER of 30.74 with MPG of 37.5
Lebron's Game Scr in 2013 is currently 24.7 and PER of 31.87 with MPG of 38.5
On the surface it would appear his 2010 he was more productive overall.


On the other end, MJ's GameScr was the following:

1st Number GMSC = Regular Season
2nd Number GMSC = Playoffs

GmSc = 27.4, 26.9
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1987/

GmSc = 28.8, 27.2
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1988/

GmSc = 28.6, 27.8
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/

GmSc = 27.6, 29.0
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1990/

GmSc = 26.2, 27.4
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/ - His best PER this season in the playoffs and 2nd highest of his career in regular season, but 5th highest in Gmsc

GmSc = 24.4, 25.1
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/

GmSc = 25.5, 26.2
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1993/


So I think a lot depends on how the league is at the time.

felixng2012
02-27-2013, 07:09 PM
Hand check rules definitely are a factor but overall team defense in Jordan's era was also worse and the league was in a middle of an expansion which made the league weaker.

Overall, all of this speculation means nothing. You can't really compare eras all that well.

Btw PER is based on the average production for the season. It is not an official stat. Every player in the league benefits from hand checking. So it really does not matter.

PER is just a metric. You don't need PER to determine how great MJ or Lebron was.