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View Full Version : Time for some Daryl Morey love



AWC713
02-23-2013, 03:35 PM
What he has done in Houston is REVOLUTIONARY.

he has completely turned the franchise over in less than a year. I'm not talking abotu taking the 9th seed to the 8th seed.

Consider this: the Kings roster has more Rockets years than the Rockets. the Suns have more rockets players from last year than the Rockets.

The only player from last year's team still on this year's team? Chandler Parsons, and Greg Smith, who spent most of last year in the D-league.

Morey deserves to be Exec of the Year, and he desreves praise and recognition from NBA fans everywhere. Not only does he have the youngest team in the league by average age, but he's made a handful of moves that were widely criticized that turned out to ge excellent.

He signed Lin to 8 mil a year. For all the LInsanity hate he recieved, he's having a SPLENDID year. He's only 24 and has shown signs of getting better. He's getting more comfortable playing with Harden, and he's been shooting a lot better--nearly 50% form 3 in the past month. He's averaging 13/6/4, and has shown that he can and will be a good starter in this league
He signed Asik to 8 mil a year. Asik is 2nd in the league in rebounds, and averages nearly 11 ppg when no one thought he could.
He traded and maxed out Harden.
He cut ties with Goran and Scola, but the emergence of young player like Donatas Motiejunas, Greg Smith, and Patrick Beverly makes the transition easier.
He signed Defino to an amazing deal after he got no offers.
He traded for Thomas Robinson WHILE saving money, with 20 mil in cap space for this summer.

He's not even done. The Rockets still have room for another max player.

What he has done is nothing short of extraordinary. Its a shame ESPN gives him no coverage, instead giving daily coverage to the trainwreck that is Dwight and the Lakers.

Rant done. Sorry. But please feel free to chime in. I want to hear what other NBA fans think of Morey.

Hitman 3:16
02-23-2013, 03:44 PM
I personally feel like he is "too active". In my opinion, he hasn't stuck with one consistent set of talent or personnel. He's always trading players and draft picks for new assets, it is always going in some sort of carousel. Harden is the cornerstone of that franchise now, but I wouldn't be shocked if the other players around him get traded, and you see a completely new set of supporting cast around Harden in 2 yrs.

He needs to stick with 1 plan, with 1 set of personnel and let those set of players grow and give them a 3-4 yr window before he starts going free agency and trade crazy.

Sactown
02-23-2013, 03:48 PM
Lol the KINGS made the rockets the rockets lol

We gave you K-Mart for a backup PF, and you turned KMART into Harden
And we gave you T-rob, and we also helped you get rid of T-mac...

AWC713
02-23-2013, 03:53 PM
Lol the KINGS made the rockets the rockets lol

We gave you K-Mart for a backup PF, and you turned KMART into Harden
And we gave you T-rob, and we also helped you get rid of T-mac...


ehhh i see where your going with this. but it's more than just the kings. jeremy lamb and the raptors unprotected 1st rounder from this year were essential in getting the harden deal done. kings had nothing to do with that.

you did give us trob is what looks like a money saving technique. but his moves go far beyond the kings. hes an excellent drafter and an excellent trader. drafted landry and chandler parsons is the second round. aaron brooks was a late 1st round selection, who was swapped for goran AND a 1st round pick. traded a eruo scrub for luis scola.

but you do have to have a couple all-stars to compete in this league. looks like morey's plan is finally coming to fruition.

Carey
02-23-2013, 04:06 PM
I think he's done a tremendous job. They are young, talented and have flexibility. Obviously the core of Harden, Lin, Parson, Asik, TRob looks promising. I still like Montiejunas's upside, also Royce White if he can work past his issues. Delfino is a nice spot up shooter/role player on the cheap. Terrance Jones has talent, and Greg Smith and Patrick Beverly look like solid inexpensive depth at the very least. Not sure what they need persay going forward but they have the financial flexibility to add and the the trade pieces to cash in for a bigger piece if they'd like. Very bright future.

DallasTrilla23
02-23-2013, 04:09 PM
Morey didn't turn the franchise around in just one year. He was stocked up on young assets kept his options open and stayed patient for an opportunity. He's done an incredible job but he didn't build this team overnight

topdog
02-23-2013, 04:17 PM
It seems like every year we hear about what a "great job" Morey has done and yet we're always talking about Houston being an 8/9 seed. Quite frankly, I feel like he is overrated. He wins deals but he doesn't seem to care if those players fit or not because they are simply assets for another deal.

Hitman 3:16
02-23-2013, 04:18 PM
It seems like every year we hear about what a "great job" Morey has done and yet we're always talking about Houston being an 8/9 seed. Quite frankly, I feel like he is overrated. He wins deals but he doesn't seem to care if those players fit or not because they are simply assets for another deal.

This is exactly what I said in my post. Glad someone agrees with me.

Sactown
02-23-2013, 04:18 PM
ehhh i see where your going with this. but it's more than just the kings. jeremy lamb and the raptors unprotected 1st rounder from this year were essential in getting the harden deal done. kings had nothing to do with that.

you did give us trob is what looks like a money saving technique. but his moves go far beyond the kings. hes an excellent drafter and an excellent trader. drafted landry and chandler parsons is the second round. aaron brooks was a late 1st round selection, who was swapped for goran AND a 1st round pick. traded a eruo scrub for luis scola.

but you do have to have a couple all-stars to compete in this league. looks like morey's plan is finally coming to fruition.

Um we didn't even shop Thomas Robinson we just straight gave him to you, and it doesn't even help our cap space next season

ManRam
02-23-2013, 04:21 PM
I mean, he deserved a lot of props this off season. There were some detractors, but I think it's undeniable now. Depending on this offseason, he could have done something truly special in a relatively short period of time.

They got money to blow this offseason. Must be fun being a Rockets fan now.

rocket
02-23-2013, 04:25 PM
Lol the KINGS made the rockets the rockets lol

We gave you K-Mart for a backup PF, and you turned KMART into Harden
And we gave you T-rob, and we also helped you get rid of T-mac...

Yeah bro Kings are the best

AWC713
02-23-2013, 04:25 PM
Um we didn't even shop Thomas Robinson we just straight gave him to you, and it doesn't even help our cap space next season

it doesnt help your cap situation, true, but your OWNER got paid, which is why he did the deal.

Chronz
02-23-2013, 04:29 PM
Hes done what every great GM does, hes always a player in deadline moves because his team is always flexible enough to participate without losing a thing in terms of long term potential.

3RDASYSTEM
02-23-2013, 04:30 PM
,
What he has done in Houston is REVOLUTIONARY.

he has completely turned the franchise over in less than a year. I'm not talking abotu taking the 9th seed to the 8th seed.

Consider this: the Kings roster has more Rockets years than the Rockets. the Suns have more rockets players from last year than the Rockets.

The only player from last year's team still on this year's team? Chandler Parsons, and Greg Smith, who spent most of last year in the D-league.

Morey deserves to be Exec of the Year, and he desreves praise and recognition from NBA fans everywhere. Not only does he have the youngest team in the league by average age, but he's made a handful of moves that were widely criticized that turned out to ge excellent.

He signed Lin to 8 mil a year. For all the LInsanity hate he recieved, he's having a SPLENDID year. He's only 24 and has shown signs of getting better. He's getting more comfortable playing with Harden, and he's been shooting a lot better--nearly 50% form 3 in the past month. He's averaging 13/6/4, and has shown that he can and will be a good starter in this league
He signed Asik to 8 mil a year. Asik is 2nd in the league in rebounds, and averages nearly 11 ppg when no one thought he could.
He traded and maxed out Harden.
He cut ties with Goran and Scola, but the emergence of young player like Donatas Motiejunas, Greg Smith, and Patrick Beverly makes the transition easier.
He signed Defino to an amazing deal after he got no offers.
He traded for Thomas Robinson WHILE saving money, with 20 mil in cap space for this summer.

He's not even done. The Rockets still have room for another max player.

What he has done is nothing short of extraordinary. Its a shame ESPN gives him no coverage, instead giving daily coverage to the trainwreck that is Dwight and the Lakers.

Rant done. Sorry. But please feel free to chime in. I want to hear what other NBA fans think of Morey.

Your right on point pretty much except for the 24 yr old LIN part, hes not getting no better, well he has actually right? going from dleague to 8mil per, so hes maxed out his 'game', HARDEN always had this type of game last yr, he was just sharing with DURANT/WESTBROOK/IBAKA, now he's sharing with ASIK/LIN/PARSONS and is still displaying his game at 24yrs of age, but you see the diff., HARDEN could drop 40 plus pts with DURANT/WESTBROOK, now just look at what hes doing now,40 come a lot more/easier for him now right? did he get better? hell nah he just playing more minutes/more shots

if he wings 3-5rings he will become the new BEAN of psd

HOU is going to get crazy love for this summer splash I can see going down, they should go after COUSINS/DWIGHT type so MCHALE/DREAM can make they post game even more polished/unstoppable since they are considered by many with the best post moves by bigmen right?

AWC713
02-23-2013, 04:34 PM
It seems like every year we hear about what a "great job" Morey has done and yet we're always talking about Houston being an 8/9 seed. Quite frankly, I feel like he is overrated. He wins deals but he doesn't seem to care if those players fit or not because they are simply assets for another deal.


i guess i just appreciate what he's doing because he's trying to build a contending team without tanking. not a lot of teams go the route he does, which is compete and try to win.

a lot of teams in the nba, if they aren't "elite" quite frankly bag it and hope to get good picks in the draft. morey has assembled this team despite consistantly picking 14th

Chronz
02-23-2013, 04:34 PM
It seems like every year we hear about what a "great job" Morey has done and yet we're always talking about Houston being an 8/9 seed. Quite frankly, I feel like he is overrated. He wins deals but he doesn't seem to care if those players fit or not because they are simply assets for another deal.
What makes you think he doesnt seem to care how those players fit? And you have to admit, its better to be in the playoff mix with a team looking at alot of cap space heading into the off-season. Thats a pretty good position to be in for a team.

Some deals are made because the team wont skip a beat. Like when he gave Kahn, Budinger for an extra chip (1 of 3) at the draft table. Budinger was a solid player, but he was beat out for his position by Parsons, who happens to have a long term rookie scale contract. Those are gold in the NBA, its Kahn's inability to secure these kind of assets that force him into trading for those players when they are entering contract years.

Moreys strategy is simple, dont commit big money to players who are perfectly replaceable.

Whats its done is kept in him in perpetual mediocrity/flexibility in hopes of landing a star, he has found one to build around in Harden so its a pretty good rebound from the crippled Yao-Mac era.

KniCks4LiFe
02-23-2013, 04:36 PM
It's incredible what he has done and how he has done. Every piece that he released or traded, he has upgraded and opened up cap space, and he didn't just upgrade, he has 5-8 top ceiling players on his roster. In every position but C. That is ridiculous. But more credit needs to go to Kevin McHale. People do not understand the incredible job he has done to that organization in developing the young talent on his roster. If I were Thomas Robinson right now I'd be grinning forever, a teacher like McHale and Houston's bigs coach are top level.

AWC713
02-23-2013, 04:39 PM
It's incredible what he has done and how he has done. Every piece that he released or traded, he has upgraded and opened up cap space, and he didn't just upgrade, he has 5-8 top ceiling players on his roster. In every position but C. That is ridiculous. But more credit needs to go to Kevin McHale. People do not understand the incredible job he has done to that organization in developing the young talent on his roster. If I were Thomas Robinson right now I'd be grinning forever, a teacher like McHale and Houston's bigs coach are top level.

True McHale does deserve praise. His work with Asik and Motiejunas are very noticable on the floor. Asik's offensive footwork has improved immensely, and thats not by coincidence.

KniCks4LiFe
02-23-2013, 04:43 PM
True McHale does deserve praise. His work with Asik and Motiejunas are very noticable on the floor. Asik's offensive footwork has improved immensely, and thats not by coincidence.

I want to see Monty. I never understood how he wasn't getting PT. But obviously it was to drive up the trade value for Cole. Monty if he gets it in the paint, look out. He reminds me of Gallo, only bigger and stronger.

Chronz
02-23-2013, 04:44 PM
i guess i just appreciate what he's doing because he's trying to build a contending team without tanking. not a lot of teams go the route he does, which is compete and try to win.

a lot of teams in the nba, if they aren't "elite" quite frankly bag it and hope to get good picks in the draft. morey has assembled this team despite consistantly picking 14th
He doesnt appreciate it because he doesnt know how hard it is to get a franchise cornerstone, his GM inherited one in Love and arguably Jefferson, and has failed to find even adequate support for them.

hugepatsfan
02-23-2013, 04:46 PM
Morey has done the hardest thing to do in the NBA IMO - maintain mediocrity (competing for the playoffs, which brings revenue and interest) while still maintaining the flexibility to go from mediocrity to title contender. They haven't been able to make that move yet, but they have the cap space and tradable assets to do so when the opportunity arrises. That's not something many "average" teams can say. Most "average" teams don't have the assets/cap space to ever be title contenders and they usually have too much money tied up in decent players to rebuild. Not HOU.

AWC713
02-23-2013, 04:53 PM
I want to see Monty. I never understood how he wasn't getting PT. But obviously it was to drive up the trade value for Cole. Monty if he gets it in the paint, look out. He reminds me of Gallo, only bigger and stronger.

here's a video from yesterdays game, excellent footwork:

he runs the floor very hard, comes in with a lot of energy. i agree he shouldve been playing a while ago, but his d can be suspect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiL36cCkGpA

TyrionLannister
02-23-2013, 04:55 PM
Unless your GM is smart, don't trade with him under any circumstances.

KniCks4LiFe
02-23-2013, 05:01 PM
here's a video from yesterdays game, excellent footwork:

he runs the floor very hard, comes in with a lot of energy. i agree he shouldve been playing a while ago, but his d can be suspect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiL36cCkGpA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJ3qTNqR4Y

he scores 10 tonight vs WAS easily.

Chronz
02-23-2013, 05:03 PM
True McHale does deserve praise. His work with Asik and Motiejunas are very noticable on the floor. Asik's offensive footwork has improved immensely, and thats not by coincidence.

Dawson deserves some credit for that, hes worked with alot of their bigs over the years.

AWC713
02-23-2013, 05:09 PM
Dawson deserves some credit for that, hes worked with alot of their bigs over the years.

very true. i think its sad that hakeem doesnt work with the rockets. you think he would. im sure hes been offered to.

IndyRealist
02-23-2013, 05:31 PM
Unless your GM is smart, don't trade with him under any circumstances.

Unfortunately, every GM thinks they are smart.

People seem to be missing that Morey has always had a long term plan. Yes he stockpiled assets, made lots of seemingly disjointed trades, and it could look like he was just trading to trade. But his goal has always been to land a franchise player. Until he did the moves he made were simply stopgaps. And now he has Harden, with a young Parsons developing, a solid center in Asik, and lots of assets still remaining. Yes, even Lin. And he did it with the lowest salary in the league.

KnicksorBust
02-23-2013, 05:49 PM
Morey as exec of the year is :laugh:

I love him for getting Harden. I give him credit for paying Lin/Asik but unless T-Rob pans out they are still back page news. Exec of the year goes to a team that can actually WIN the title.

sidenote: I hate ragging on Morey when Hou is one of my top 5 favorite teams in the NBA.

nyyfan4life
02-23-2013, 05:51 PM
What's most impressive is that he did without tanking and without a 'mainstream' city that can attract stars. Houston is a cool city to live in but doesn't have the appeal that NY, LA, Miami have. Unlike teams like the Thunder, Morey didn't have annual top 5 picks. He made shrewd moves with both the short term and long term in mind.

Also, a lot of props to Kevin McHale. He's not the best X's and O's guy and a lot of his in-game decisions are at times stupid but he has the team playing extremely hard. He's also had to deal with a huge personal tragedy which makes what he's doing with the youngest team in the league a lot more impressive. If the Rockets can get a top 6 spot in the West, he has to be on the short list for coach of the year.

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 05:52 PM
,

Your right on point pretty much except for the 24 yr old LIN part, hes not getting no better, well he has actually right? going from dleague to 8mil per, so hes maxed out his 'game', HARDEN always had this type of game last yr, he was just sharing with DURANT/WESTBROOK/IBAKA, now he's sharing with ASIK/LIN/PARSONS and is still displaying his game at 24yrs of age, but you see the diff., HARDEN could drop 40 plus pts with DURANT/WESTBROOK, now just look at what hes doing now,40 come a lot more/easier for him now right? did he get better? hell nah he just playing more minutes/more shots

if he wings 3-5rings he will become the new BEAN of psd

HOU is going to get crazy love for this summer splash I can see going down, they should go after COUSINS/DWIGHT type so MCHALE/DREAM can make they post game even more polished/unstoppable since they are considered by many with the best post moves by bigmen right?

Lin has improved a ton ... He is a completely different player than he was at the beginning of the season, go look at the stats. Anyone who says he has maxed out his game is talking out of their ***.


It seems like every year we hear about what a "great job" Morey has done and yet we're always talking about Houston being an 8/9 seed. Quite frankly, I feel like he is overrated. He wins deals but he doesn't seem to care if those players fit or not because they are simply assets for another deal.

Houston is in playoff contention as the youngest team in the league. The only old players are more than expendable. How is that overrated. Look at the team they made the playoffs with last time, then look at the team they went .500 with last season, and now look at this team which is younger, better, and has more potential than ever.

I mean how many people can take a .500 team, gut all but 2-3 players while shaving the average age down by 3-4 years, win probably 5-8 more games, and finally KEEP ALL THEIR DRAFT PICKS AND GAIN MORE??

topdog
02-23-2013, 06:16 PM
What makes you think he doesnt seem to care how those players fit? And you have to admit, its better to be in the playoff mix with a team looking at alot of cap space heading into the off-season. Thats a pretty good position to be in for a team.

Some deals are made because the team wont skip a beat. Like when he gave Kahn, Budinger for an extra chip (1 of 3) at the draft table. Budinger was a solid player, but he was beat out for his position by Parsons, who happens to have a long term rookie scale contract. Those are gold in the NBA, its Kahn's inability to secure these kind of assets that force him into trading for those players when they are entering contract years.

Moreys strategy is simple, dont commit big money to players who are perfectly replaceable.

Whats its done is kept in him in perpetual mediocrity/flexibility in hopes of landing a star, he has found one to build around in Harden so its a pretty good rebound from the crippled Yao-Mac era.


He doesnt appreciate it because he doesnt know how hard it is to get a franchise cornerstone, his GM inherited one in Love and arguably Jefferson, and has failed to find even adequate support for them.

I don't appreciate you trying to brush off my assessment as some sort of defense of David Kahn or what have you. Just because I'm a Wolves fan does not mean my viewpoint is driven by what they do.

I understand that franchise cornerstones are not easy to acquire and don't pop up in every draft (2008 was a good year to have a lottery pick). I applaud the move to secure Harden while I also feel that the deal was a good one for OKC (win-win).

I don't feel that Lin is a long-term solution nor that Parsons is anything more than an average wing who has become overrated in part because of Houston's inflated offense. I would like to think that maybe they see Thomas Robinson as their future 4 and will develop him, but chances are they flip him within 2 years.

I get that the Rockets owner doesn't want to go into a re-build and so that forces Morey to stay out of the lottery, but he really hasn't done anything with the picks he's gotten. Saying he keeps turning over his roster looking for that next piece is a plan, is accepting a pretty lousy plan. When is this superstar supposed to happen? I'd trust a lousy GM more with the dumb luck of drafting someone who turns out to be a star than this notion that players can be accumulated as assets and eventually be moved for a star.

Danny Ainge turned a 13th, 15th and 18th pick into a superstar (Telfair, Big Al and Gerald Green for Garnett). Similar picks to what Houston got but Ainge made good choices and developed those players enough to make them desirable.

As far as cap space, we all know full well that cap space often means very little. If players don't want to be a part of your city/team or you don't offer enough money, that cap is just money not spent. What free agent has been attracted to the Rockets in the last decade? The overpaid Trevor Ariza?

topdog
02-23-2013, 06:25 PM
Houston is in playoff contention as the youngest team in the league. The only old players are more than expendable. How is that overrated. Look at the team they made the playoffs with last time, then look at the team they went .500 with last season, and now look at this team which is younger, better, and has more potential than ever.

I mean how many people can take a .500 team, gut all but 2-3 players while shaving the average age down by 3-4 years, win probably 5-8 more games, and finally KEEP ALL THEIR DRAFT PICKS AND GAIN MORE??

What do picks really matter when Morey hasn't drafted anyone special? Parsons with his league average PER of 15 is a nice player, but he's nothing to write home about. Marcus Morris is already gone for nothing. Patterson got traded for Robinson, but recent history (and Jordan Hill) would suggest that he'll be gone shorty in a deal that nets very little.

king4day
02-23-2013, 06:25 PM
It's not like the 3 players the Suns have that the Rockets had are garbage.
Scola, the Rockets will be paying a chunk of his salary so he can help the team. If Phoenix decides to trade him this summer, we'll get a decent return for him.
Dragic is better than Lin on both sides of the ball and Morris still has good potential.

He's done a good job revamping his team but if they don't get Howard, then they won't be an elite team with their current squad. In 2 years, they will be in cap trouble when Asik and Lin's contracts balloon.

EDIT: Sorry, I misread the OP reading it as the Rockets had dumped useless players to revamp their team.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 06:30 PM
It seems like every year we hear about what a "great job" Morey has done and yet we're always talking about Houston being an 8/9 seed. Quite frankly, I feel like he is overrated. He wins deals but he doesn't seem to care if those players fit or not because they are simply assets for another deal.

I agree with this to a huge extent. Its partially why when you go to a Houston game, the stands are half full at best. This team has had no players or direction fans can identify with for years, and while I think that is going to change finally starting this year, I think he has been overrated to an extent the last 5 seasons.

Would I trade our GM for Morey however? Any day of the week. He is still one of the top 5-6 GM's in the NBA, I just get sick of hearing how genius he is constantly.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 06:33 PM
What makes you think he doesnt seem to care how those players fit? And you have to admit, its better to be in the playoff mix with a team looking at alot of cap space heading into the off-season. Thats a pretty good position to be in for a team.

Some deals are made because the team wont skip a beat. Like when he gave Kahn, Budinger for an extra chip (1 of 3) at the draft table. Budinger was a solid player, but he was beat out for his position by Parsons, who happens to have a long term rookie scale contract. Those are gold in the NBA, its Kahn's inability to secure these kind of assets that force him into trading for those players when they are entering contract years.

Moreys strategy is simple, dont commit big money to players who are perfectly replaceable.

Whats its done is kept in him in perpetual mediocrity/flexibility in hopes of landing a star, he has found one to build around in Harden so its a pretty good rebound from the crippled Yao-Mac era.

I don't think anyone would deny Morey isn't an excellent GM, its just that he is always mentioned as a genius, when his teams haven't performed to that level for multiple reasons. I also see the stands don't have people in them, and that is part of a GM's job as well.

Like I said in my last post, top 5-6 GM, bringing Kahn into this discussion is a joke, no need for it, I just think he is talked about like he is Presti or Buford at times, which is not where he belongs. Yet.

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 06:37 PM
What do picks really matter when Morey hasn't drafted anyone special? Parsons with his league average PER of 15 is a nice player, but he's nothing to write home about. Marcus Morris is already gone for nothing. Patterson got traded for Robinson, but recent history (and Jordan Hill) would suggest that he'll be gone shorty in a deal that nets very little.

Well maybe because the highest he has ever picked was 14? So he could easily pick up another role player, and who is to say his next pick doesn't pan out? "recent history" is just that .... history. Jordan Hill and Robinson are different players so how can you even say that Robinson will not be good because of Hill? That's beyond stupid.

astrosmaniac
02-23-2013, 06:38 PM
It's not like the 3 players the Suns have that the Rockets had are garbage.
Scola, the Rockets will be paying a chunk of his salary so he can help the team. If Phoenix decides to trade him this summer, we'll get a decent return for him.
Dragic is better than Lin on both sides of the ball and Morris still has good potential.

He's done a good job revamping his team but if they don't get Howard, then they won't be an elite team with their current squad. In 2 years, they will be in cap trouble when Asik and Lin's contracts balloon.

EDIT: Sorry, I misread the OP reading it as the Rockets had dumped useless players to revamp their team.
Asik and Lin's contravct count at 8.3 million each year for the duration of the contract. they dont balloon

I agree with this to a huge extent. Its partially why when you go to a Houston game, the stands are half full at best. This team has had no players or direction fans can identify with for years, and while I think that is going to change finally starting this year, I think he has been overrated to an extent the last 5 seasons.

Would I trade our GM for Morey however? Any day of the week. He is still one of the top 5-6 GM's in the NBA, I just get sick of hearing how genius he is constantly.
The team will finally have stability now that we have a legit star in harden. There's also a few other reasons why the stands are half full. first off, it's texas. football is king, especially with the texans in the playoffs. 2nd, comcast is having a pissing war with other cable providers. 60% of the city can't see them on a regular basis. If you can't follow the team at home, why go buy tickets to the game?

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 06:42 PM
I don't appreciate you trying to brush off my assessment as some sort of defense of David Kahn or what have you. Just because I'm a Wolves fan does not mean my viewpoint is driven by what they do.

I understand that franchise cornerstones are not easy to acquire and don't pop up in every draft (2008 was a good year to have a lottery pick). I applaud the move to secure Harden while I also feel that the deal was a good one for OKC (win-win).

I don't feel that Lin is a long-term solution nor that Parsons is anything more than an average wing who has become overrated in part because of Houston's inflated offense. I would like to think that maybe they see Thomas Robinson as their future 4 and will develop him, but chances are they flip him within 2 years.

I get that the Rockets owner doesn't want to go into a re-build and so that forces Morey to stay out of the lottery, but he really hasn't done anything with the picks he's gotten. Saying he keeps turning over his roster looking for that next piece is a plan, is accepting a pretty lousy plan. When is this superstar supposed to happen? I'd trust a lousy GM more with the dumb luck of drafting someone who turns out to be a star than this notion that players can be accumulated as assets and eventually be moved for a star.

Danny Ainge turned a 13th, 15th and 18th pick into a superstar (Telfair, Big Al and Gerald Green for Garnett). Similar picks to what Houston got but Ainge made good choices and developed those players enough to make them desirable.

As far as cap space, we all know full well that cap space often means very little. If players don't want to be a part of your city/team or you don't offer enough money, that cap is just money not spent. What free agent has been attracted to the Rockets in the last decade? The overpaid Trevor Ariza?

One of the top defending and second leading rebounder in the league Asik? A team who are going to make the playoffs and will offer you max money? What free agent doesn't want that?

topdog
02-23-2013, 06:46 PM
Well maybe because the highest he has ever picked was 14? So he could easily pick up another role player, and who is to say his next pick doesn't pan out? "recent history" is just that .... history. Jordan Hill and Robinson are different players so how can you even say that Robinson will not be good because of Hill? That's beyond stupid.

Ainge got Al Jefferson with 15 who Chronz just mentioned as a potential franchise cornerstone. Bledsoe, Leonard and Bradley all were available to Morey not to mention a number of players this year. The issue is that he never keeps anyone long enough to figure out what they really are and that was my point with Jordan Hill - he has been great for the Lakers and all Houston got for him was Derrick Fisher and a pick.

History is all we have to go on... I don't understand why you would try to say it's stupid to look at what he has done as a predictor of what he will do. I never said that Robinson wouldn't be good, rather I suggested that he'd likely be gone from Houston by the time he starts developing into a good player based upon the way Morey has moved players including the afforementioned Hill (8th pick in '09).

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 06:52 PM
Ainge got Al Jefferson with 15 who Chronz just mentioned as a potential franchise cornerstone. Bledsoe, Leonard and Bradley all were available to Morey not to mention a number of players this year. The issue is that he never keeps anyone long enough to figure out what they really are and that was my point with Jordan Hill - he has been great for the Lakers and all Houston got for him was Derrick Fisher and a pick.

History is all we have to go on... I don't understand why you would try to say it's stupid to look at what he has done as a predictor of what he will do. I never said that Robinson wouldn't be good, rather I suggested that he'd likely be gone from Houston by the time he starts developing into a good player based upon the way Morey has moved players including the afforementioned Hill (8th pick in '09).

Wasn't that Hill pick in the Harden trade :eyebrow: not 100% sure but I think so. Plus Robinson is much more physically talented, has a higher motor, and foremost is twice the rebounder Hill will ever be.

topdog
02-23-2013, 06:53 PM
One of the top defending and second leading rebounder in the league Asik? A team who are going to make the playoffs and will offer you max money? What free agent doesn't want that?

It's TBD. We haven't seen it yet so it should not be assumed.

Asik has been good. I won't deny that. I don't think that it's an astounding move or anything though. There was a good deal of interest in Asik around the league and he simply is a calculated risk who so far has paid off. I'm not saying that Morey isn't a good GM but rather that people act as if he is the class of the league or has this brilliant grand design to win a championship.

topdog
02-23-2013, 06:57 PM
Wasn't that Hill pick in the Harden trade :eyebrow: not 100% sure but I think so. Plus Robinson is much more physically talented, has a higher motor, and foremost is twice the rebounder Hill will ever be.

Not sure on the pick as it seems pretty ambiguous but it's from the Lakers so it is nothing to terribly tantalizing regardless. The primary pieces of the Harden deal were the guaranteed lottery pick, Lamb and Martin. We need some time still to see what Lamb and the pick turn out to be.

Assume what you want about Robinson. We shall see what becomes of him.

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 06:59 PM
Not sure on the pick as it seems pretty ambiguous but it's from the Lakers so it is nothing to terribly tantalizing regardless. The primary pieces of the Harden deal were the guaranteed lottery pick, Lamb and Martin. We need some time still to see what Lamb and the pick turn out to be.

Assume what you want about Robinson. We shall see what becomes of him.

Robinson has almost Blake Griffin potential but is less polished.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 07:01 PM
Asik and Lin's contravct count at 8.3 million each year for the duration of the contract. they dont balloon

The team will finally have stability now that we have a legit star in harden. There's also a few other reasons why the stands are half full. first off, it's texas. football is king, especially with the texans in the playoffs. 2nd, comcast is having a pissing war with other cable providers. 60% of the city can't see them on a regular basis. If you can't follow the team at home, why go buy tickets to the game?

Notice I said that there may be some more attention now. Fact is, they are 23rd in attendance, and the whole comcast deal is not helping things. Nobody cares about the Rockets in Houston, outside the die hards. I live in Houston, and know more about the Rox than 95% of this city, and they aren't even my team whatsoever (I am the one amongst all my friends whose phone blows up when the Rockets trade or sign anyone, asking for my opinions on who this guy is, who that guy is).

I do think that will change going forward. The Morey 5 year period where players were just assets being flipped left and right, driving fans to not really care about the team, and the rise of the Texans, contributes to all of this. And I do think Morey is an excellent GM. But like I said, I constantly hear the chatter of him being this amazing GM, when his team is 9th in the west every year recently. I think we need to wait until what he pieces together works out into a contender before we give him Presti/Buford status.

SouthSideRookie
02-23-2013, 07:42 PM
Ainge got Al Jefferson with 15 who Chronz just mentioned as a potential franchise cornerstone. Bledsoe, Leonard and Bradley all were available to Morey not to mention a number of players this year. The issue is that he never keeps anyone long enough to figure out what they really are and that was my point with Jordan Hill - he has been great for the Lakers and all Houston got for him was Derrick Fisher and a pick.
History is all we have to go on... I don't understand why you would try to say it's stupid to look at what he has done as a predictor of what he will do. I never said that Robinson wouldn't be good, rather I suggested that he'd likely be gone from Houston by the time he starts developing into a good player based upon the way Morey has moved players including the afforementioned Hill (8th pick in '09).

I like how you conveniently didn't mention Chandler Parsons.


It's TBD. We haven't seen it yet so it should not be assumed.

Asik has been good. I won't deny that. I don't think that it's an astounding move or anything though. There was a good deal of interest in Asik around the league and he simply is a calculated risk who so far has paid off. I'm not saying that Morey isn't a good GM but rather that people act as if he is the class of the league or has this brilliant grand design to win a championship.

So a calculated risk in many people's eyes paying off is not an outstanding move in your eyes. On competing for a title, it's just a matter of time. They have cap and the trade chips to acquire another superstar. Don't be suprised if Love ends up in Houston.

AWC713
02-23-2013, 07:50 PM
Notice I said that there may be some more attention now. Fact is, they are 23rd in attendance, and the whole comcast deal is not helping things. Nobody cares about the Rockets in Houston, outside the die hards. I live in Houston, and know more about the Rox than 95% of this city, and they aren't even my team whatsoever (I am the one amongst all my friends whose phone blows up when the Rockets trade or sign anyone, asking for my opinions on who this guy is, who that guy is).

I do think that will change going forward. The Morey 5 year period where players were just assets being flipped left and right, driving fans to not really care about the team, and the rise of the Texans, contributes to all of this. And I do think Morey is an excellent GM. But like I said, I constantly hear the chatter of him being this amazing GM, when his team is 9th in the west every year recently. I think we need to wait until what he pieces together works out into a contender before we give him Presti/Buford status.

I see what youre saying as a Houston native, but things are turning around. I'm a diehard Rockets fans as are a bunch of other people that I know. Most cities do run on bandwagon fans (except for select great sports cities like CHI, NY...not saying they dont have bandwagoners, but they do have their share of diehards).

Houston is a football town, but this is a basketball town as well. We have championship history. We've been bitten with the injury bug far more than what a team should be allowed. Houston Rockets basketball is back.

Side note, I read on the thread that Morey doesnt do with his picks what others do. I disagree. He gets great value in the draft. Parsons mid second round. Landry early second round. He's got a good eye for talent. Brooks was late first round. The thing is, these aren't superstar players, so yes, they do tend to get flipped when they reach their peak.

Deception
02-23-2013, 08:01 PM
I have to admit, I thought every single move he made signing Lin and Asik and releasing Scola was just horrible. Drafting 2 PF's in the first round. I thought he made the team a joke. But one trade after another. He turned the Rockets to a crazy good team, stole T-Rob from Sacramento, and assembled a financially flexible team. I'm definitely jealous of the Rockets for being put in such a great position.

HouRealCoach
02-23-2013, 08:01 PM
If Howard is smart he would go there next year

SouthSideRookie
02-23-2013, 08:05 PM
I have to admit, I thought every single move he made signing Lin and Asik and releasing Scola was just horrible. Drafting 3 PF's in the first round. I thought he made the team a joke. But one trade after another. He turned the Rockets to a crazy good team, stole T-Rob from Sacramento, and assembled a financially flexible team. I'm definitely jealous of the Rockets for being put in such a great position.
Scola and Francisco Garcia are now the highest paid on the team right now lol


If Howard is smart he would go there next year

He would be able to contend right away, not have to wait after next season and waste another one of his prime years.

AWC713
02-23-2013, 08:21 PM
a

topdog
02-23-2013, 08:38 PM
I like how you conveniently didn't mention Chandler Parsons.

Read my other 20 posts in this thread and get back to me on that. Morey tends to draft forwards and has not kept many around more than a year or two. Houston fans can cry all they want about "Morey only had picks in the teens to work with" but their was talent enough there if he had been looking to develop players through the draft.


So a calculated risk in many people's eyes paying off is not an outstanding move in your eyes. On competing for a title, it's just a matter of time. They have cap and the trade chips to acquire another superstar. Don't be suprised if Love ends up in Houston.

Asik is a decent starting center making $8M a year. Should I jump out of my seat and yell "eureka!" over that? I also don't think you can mention the Asik deal without the Jeremy Lin deal as they seem to be a sort of hedging of bets. The idea is that with two "potential" players you're more likely to break even either with both playing like average NBA starters or one being bad and one good.

As for the Championship part, can someone please let me in on this secret Morey blueprint where the maybe 8th seed acquires a superstar and then "rocket" ;) to the top of the league? Quite frankly, I'm not concerned about Love. If that's supposed to rile me up then: :k: :k: :k:

tr3ymill3r
02-23-2013, 08:40 PM
Haters are going to hate, but unless you are Miami, OKC, LA or maybe the Knicks you would love to trade rosters and front offices with Houston.

topdog
02-23-2013, 08:47 PM
Haters are going to hate, but unless you are Miami, OKC, LA or maybe the Knicks you would love to trade rosters and front offices with Houston.

The classic: "I don't have an argument but my side is right irregardless."



*irregardless used for effect

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 08:49 PM
The classic: "I don't have an argument but my side is right irregardless."



*irregardless used for effect

You can't tell me with a straight face that Morey is not a top 5 GM.

topdog
02-23-2013, 08:51 PM
You can't tell me with a straight face that Morey is not a top 5 GM.

More replying to "haters going to hate" than anything else - pet peeve of mine. No, Morey is a very good GM overall (I need to make my official list and get back to you on rank) but I do think he is overrated.

Also, I would not trade rosters with Houston.

king4day
02-23-2013, 08:59 PM
Asik and Lin's contravct count at 8.3 million each year for the duration of the contract. they dont balloon?

What happened to the poison pill contracts each of them signed?

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

This shows they both make 14+ mil on their 3rd years

Guppyfighter
02-23-2013, 09:03 PM
This is all very good vindication for me. I spent this off-season defending the **** out of Morey on multiple forums.

JNoel
02-23-2013, 09:04 PM
Birdman is better.

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 09:08 PM
What happened to the poison pill contracts each of them signed?

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

This shows they both make 14+ mil on their 3rd years

It's wrong then. Not to come off like a dick, I thought that was the case too but it isn't.

king4day
02-23-2013, 09:10 PM
It's wrong then. Not to come off like a dick, I thought that was the case too but it isn't.

Not at all. That's interesting. I thought that was why the Bulls and NY didn't match for them.

CityofTreez
02-23-2013, 09:11 PM
Never was a Morey fan because he always cowered off the Kings, and we weren't that great.

BUT, he just stole T-Rob from my Kings, and he'll probably be good now. So, because of Morey, I'm going to root for T-Rob and the Houston Rockets. He's done a great job.

sep11ie
02-23-2013, 09:22 PM
It's not like the 3 players the Suns have that the Rockets had are garbage.
Scola, the Rockets will be paying a chunk of his salary so he can help the team. If Phoenix decides to trade him this summer, we'll get a decent return for him.
Dragic is better than Lin on both sides of the ball and Morris still has good potential.

He's done a good job revamping his team but if they don't get Howard, then they won't be an elite team with their current squad. In 2 years, they will be in cap trouble when Asik and Lin's contracts balloon.

EDIT: Sorry, I misread the OP reading it as the Rockets had dumped useless players to revamp their team.

Once again, Asik and Lin will NEVER account for 15 million against the cap UNLESS they are traded to another team. They will account for 8.3 each in their final year. Also, they are good enough that even if those contracts did inflate they would still be valuable expirings.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 09:26 PM
I see what youre saying as a Houston native, but things are turning around. I'm a diehard Rockets fans as are a bunch of other people that I know. Most cities do run on bandwagon fans (except for select great sports cities like CHI, NY...not saying they dont have bandwagoners, but they do have their share of diehards).

Houston is a football town, but this is a basketball town as well. We have championship history. We've been bitten with the injury bug far more than what a team should be allowed. Houston Rockets basketball is back.

Side note, I read on the thread that Morey doesnt do with his picks what others do. I disagree. He gets great value in the draft. Parsons mid second round. Landry early second round. He's got a good eye for talent. Brooks was late first round. The thing is, these aren't superstar players, so yes, they do tend to get flipped when they reach their peak.

Well, the stupid comcast thing is killing the momentum this team should be having right now. Why pay money to go to a game when you haven't even been able to watch them play?

Who the hell said he doesn't do well with his picks? I get that he has drafted a lot of PF's, but he gets great value out of his picks. Um, Budinger, and Parsons as 2nd rounders? Even his Lamb pick helped get Harden, and the Morris pick gives him yet another high 2nd rounder (where he has shown success), which will net a cheaper player. I think he is an excellent GM, like I said, he just gets thrown around with the big boys, and the results don't show that quite yet. He may be getting there in the next few years however, he has his building block now.

AWC713
02-23-2013, 09:28 PM
The classic: "I don't have an argument but my side is right irregardless."



*irregardless used for effect

irregardless isn't a word.

rockbottom2010
02-23-2013, 09:34 PM
at the end of the day.....he ended up getting jeremy lin, james harden, thomas robinson, and omer asik (21-24).....

king4day
02-23-2013, 09:39 PM
Once again, Asik and Lin will NEVER account for 15 million against the cap UNLESS they are traded to another team. They will account for 8.3 each in their final year. Also, they are good enough that even if those contracts did inflate they would still be valuable expirings.

So why did this prevent the Knicks and Bulls from matching if they never had to worry about the poison pill part? I thought the 15 mil scared them. Not the 8.

Xsatyr
02-23-2013, 09:39 PM
He is doing a damn good job considering he was not allowed to tank.

rockbottom2010
02-23-2013, 09:52 PM
smartest thing he ever done was acquiring harden...he got rid of k-mart's expiring contract...jeremy lamb...which we don't how hes going to fair with okc....draft picks....who knows were will they land.....at the end of the day...the rockets are going to be contending for the next 10 years

Dnovakovic099
02-23-2013, 10:05 PM
Notice I said that there may be some more attention now. Fact is, they are 23rd in attendance, and the whole comcast deal is not helping things. Nobody cares about the Rockets in Houston, outside the die hards. I live in Houston, and know more about the Rox than 95% of this city, and they aren't even my team whatsoever (I am the one amongst all my friends whose phone blows up when the Rockets trade or sign anyone, asking for my opinions on who this guy is, who that guy is).

I do think that will change going forward. The Morey 5 year period where players were just assets being flipped left and right, driving fans to not really care about the team, and the rise of the Texans, contributes to all of this. And I do think Morey is an excellent GM. But like I said, I constantly hear the chatter of him being this amazing GM, when his team is 9th in the west every year recently. I think we need to wait until what he pieces together works out into a contender before we give him Presti/Buford status.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying, but being ninth in the west while having one of the youngest teams in the NBA is different from being ninth and having a fairly old team.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 10:21 PM
I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying, but being ninth in the west while having one of the youngest teams in the NBA is different from being ninth and having a fairly old team.

no doubt dude, that is something I have said to some of my friends here as well. And with the $18 million in potential cap room this summer, I expect this team to be a perennial playoff team going forward, barring major injuries.

topdog
02-23-2013, 10:25 PM
irregardless isn't a word.

Hence: "*irregardless used for effect"

Illiteracy at its best.

topdog
02-23-2013, 10:29 PM
So why did this prevent the Knicks and Bulls from matching if they never had to worry about the poison pill part? I thought the 15 mil scared them. Not the 8.

There is a special new rule in the CBA which Morey was smart enough to exploit (and I'm a bit fuzzy on all the parameters) where the contract would inflate on Chicago/New York, but Houston would pay the average salary out each year.

Something like Chicago (tax team maybe is why?) pays: $5M, $5M, $12M = $22M total

Houston (non-tax team? or offer team?) pays: $7.33M, $7.33M, $7.33M = $22M total

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 10:36 PM
There is a special new rule in the CBA which Morey was smart enough to exploit (and I'm a bit fuzzy on all the parameters) where the contract would inflate on Chicago/New York, but Houston would pay the average salary out each year.

Something like Chicago (tax team maybe is why?) pays: $5M, $5M, $12M = $22M total

Houston (non-tax team? or offer team?) pays: $7.33M, $7.33M, $7.33M = $22M total

the "poison pill". You can structure a deal offered to a RFA anyway you want, meaning you can disperse it how you like. Morey simply made the 3rd year in both deals a ridiculous amount, going after teams that he knew would be facing tax issues and wouldn't match. The team that makes this offer can choose to spread it equally if they choose. I am not sure what happens if they were to trade either player, if it resorts back to the original text of the offer, meaning those teams now have to pay that extra money, but it wouldn't make sense, because the payments already don't match up to the initial deal.

Yes, you are right on the math, or how it would go.

Htownballa1622
02-23-2013, 10:43 PM
More replying to "haters going to hate" than anything else - pet peeve of mine. No, Morey is a very good GM overall (I need to make my official list and get back to you on rank) but I do think he is overrated.

Also, I would not trade rosters with Houston.

?

Really?

elaborate please.

salmonleg
02-23-2013, 10:53 PM
Respectfully disagree. I think you have a philosophy that you stick with but in the early stages of a roster makeover you should be fluid and willing to change course based on what becomes currently available. When do you "stick" with a consistent set of talent or personnel. Well, except for maybe some minor moves, now....

I personally feel like he is "too active". In my opinion, he hasn't stuck with one consistent set of talent or personnel. He's always trading players and draft picks for new assets, it is always going in some sort of carousel. Harden is the cornerstone of that franchise now, but I wouldn't be shocked if the other players around him get traded, and you see a completely new set of supporting cast around Harden in 2 yrs.

He needs to stick with 1 plan, with 1 set of personnel and let those set of players grow and give them a 3-4 yr window before he starts going free agency and trade crazy.

SouthSideRookie
02-23-2013, 10:58 PM
Read my other 20 posts in this thread and get back to me on that. Morey tends to draft forwards and has not kept many around more than a year or two. Houston fans can cry all they want about "Morey only had picks in the teens to work with" but their was talent enough there if he had been looking to develop players through the draft.


Asik is a decent starting center making $8M a year. Should I jump out of my seat and yell "eureka!" over that? I also don't think you can mention the Asik deal without the Jeremy Lin deal as they seem to be a sort of hedging of bets. The idea is that with two "potential" players you're more likely to break even either with both playing like average NBA starters or one being bad and one good.

As for the Championship part, can someone please let me in on this secret Morey blueprint where the maybe 8th seed acquires a superstar and then "rocket" ;) to the top of the league? Quite frankly, I'm not concerned about Love. If that's supposed to rile me up then: :k: :k: :k:

You're knocking an NBA GM for not finding enough talent that can turn the fortunes of a franchise late in the lottery. You see how silly that sounds, and you wonder why fans in here won't go into an indepth analysis with you.

The Rockets are the youngest team in the league and are in the playoff hunt with a 23 year old superstar. They've had a really though schedule, one of the hardest in the entire league.

Seems hypocrtical of you to call someone overrated when your GM is David Kahn and your starting PG is Ricky Rubio.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 11:00 PM
You're knocking an NBA GM for not finding enough talent that can turn the fortunes of a franchise late in the lottery. You see how silly that sounds, and you wonder why fans in here won't go into an indepth analysis with you.

The Rockets are the youngest team in the league and are in the playoff hunt with a 23 year old superstar. They've had a really though schedule, one of the hardest in the entire league.

Seems hypocrtical of you to call someone overrated when your GM is David Kahn and your starting PG is Ricky Rubio.

How on earth is this relevant? So a fan of a team with a lesser GM can't be constructive? That is what I hate about this site. Instead of debating the task at hand, so many people have to use a back handed comment about that person's team. What the **** does being a Wolves fan have to do with this? Did he ever say Kahn was a good GM? He even deflected the initial attempt of a user trying to use him being a Wolves fan against him.

Even Chronz did that **** in his first post to topdog. This thread isn't about David Kahn, so if that is the response towards a Wolves fan, that is pathetic.

alexander_37
02-23-2013, 11:02 PM
How on earth is this relevant? So a fan of a team with a lesser GM can't be constructive? That is what I hate about this site. Instead of debating the task at hand, so many people have to use a back handed comment about that person's team. What the **** does being a Wolves fan have to do with this? Did he ever say Kahn was a good GM? He even deflected the initial attempt of a user trying to use him being a Wolves fan against him.

Even Chronz did that **** in his first post to topdog. This thread isn't about David Kahn, so if that is the response towards a Wolves fan, that is pathetic.

I didn't get how people instantly chirp whoever else's team they are debating when it is irrelevant.

Also whats wrong with Rubio?

Hawkeye15
02-23-2013, 11:09 PM
I didn't get how people instantly chirp whoever else's team they are debating when it is irrelevant.

Also whats wrong with Rubio?

tore his acl last year....

Check his Feb. He is playing fine now. I think the AP recovery really made people forget what the normal recovery is like for that injury. Rubio was simply slow, no burst, and you could tell he didn't trust his knee the first 6-7 back. 13-9-4-2.5 over the past 10 games. The Wolves were just destroyed by injuries this year. Absolutely destroyed. We are around 210 games missed due to injury, with Love out another 15, Budinger another 10, Lee for good, and Roy for good. Just sucks man. I thought this team had the potential to win 45-50 games if healthy.

topdog
02-23-2013, 11:58 PM
?

Really?

elaborate please.

I like the Timberwolves roster better than that of Houston when healthy with the obvious exception of Harden. I'll take Pek over Asik, Rubio over Lin, Shved over Jones (both rookies). Buddinger and Parsons are fairly similar to me. Love over Robinson.

topdog
02-24-2013, 12:09 AM
You're knocking an NBA GM for not finding enough talent that can turn the fortunes of a franchise late in the lottery. You see how silly that sounds, and you wonder why fans in here won't go into an indepth analysis with you.

The Rockets are the youngest team in the league and are in the playoff hunt with a 23 year old superstar. They've had a really though schedule, one of the hardest in the entire league.

Seems hypocrtical of you to call someone overrated when your GM is David Kahn and your starting PG is Ricky Rubio.

I don't remember saying anything about "turning fortunes." I was commenting on how I disagree with the OP about the high amount of tunrover being a good thing and saying that there was plenty of talent available to Morey at a variety of positions for him to draft and develop versus having a backlog at forward because he seemingly takes "best available." Consider for instance the value of Bledsoe right now. He was what? An 18th pick? There are opportunities even when you are outside the lottery. Al Jefferson was a 15th pick.

Do you understand what "hypocrisy" is? What does David Kahn have to do with overrated? How many times do you hear the media bashing David Kahn (assuming they are even talking about the Wolves)?

SouthSideRookie
02-24-2013, 12:28 AM
I don't remember saying anything about "turning fortunes." I was commenting on how I disagree with the OP about the high amount of tunrover being a good thing and saying that there was plenty of talent available to Morey at a variety of positions for him to draft and develop versus having a backlog at forward because he seemingly takes "best available." Consider for instance the value of Bledsoe right now. He was what? An 18th pick? There are opportunities even when you are outside the lottery. Al Jefferson was a 15th pick.

Do you understand what "hypocrisy" is? What does David Kahn have to do with overrated? How many times do you hear the media bashing David Kahn (assuming they are even talking about the Wolves)?

Insert Rubio for Kahn then, someone who's been playing professional ball a very long time and people still make excuses for his shortcoming. You think Buddinger is better than Parsons. LMFAO, all I needed to know. Im done with you.

topdog
02-24-2013, 12:53 AM
Insert Rubio for Kahn then, someone who's been playing professional ball a very long time and people still make excuses for his shortcoming. You think Buddinger is better than Parsons. LMFAO, all I needed to know.

Should Rubio be penalized for being good enough to go pro early in his country? His jumpshot has improved since being in the U.S. btw. Finally, I wrote that I felt Budinger and Parsons were fairly similar not that either was better. Apparently your reading and comprehension isn't quite there though.


Im done with you.

Because you've exposed yourself as someone who doesn't know basketball and just uses this sight to be obnoxious. I appreciate you putting me out of the misery of dealing with you further.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 01:26 AM
Even if the Twolves have the better players, the Rockets have a much much higher upside.

IndyRealist
02-24-2013, 01:31 AM
While you can win a title without a "star" player, it's much easier to have one. Or three. Until he landed Harden, all Morey was doing was stockpiling assets and biding his time. Every time a star player (Pau, Dwight, Harden) became available he jumped on it. Now he has the best "young" player in the league for 5 more years guaranteed. He has a star, a player friendly system, and enough cap space to attract all sorts of free agents. He could sign a max player this summer and still be under the cap, with room to trade assets and absorb salary to get a big 3.

astrosmaniac
02-24-2013, 01:35 AM
What happened to the poison pill contracts each of them signed?

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

This shows they both make 14+ mil on their 3rd years

those are the actual money amount paid per year, not the cap hits


Not at all. That's interesting. I thought that was why the Bulls and NY didn't match for them.
It is. if the bulls and knicks had matched, those numbers would be the cap hits for those teams. it's a weird loophole in the CBA

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 01:38 AM
Even if the Twolves have the better players, the Rockets have a much much higher upside.

I can agree with this right now. The Wolves upside as constructed, is a top 4-6 team in the west, with 2nd round knockout range. That is healthy as crap, etc.

astrosmaniac
02-24-2013, 01:50 AM
I like the Timberwolves roster better than that of Houston when healthy with the obvious exception of Harden. I'll take Pek over Asik, Rubio over Lin, Shved over Jones (both rookies). Buddinger and Parsons are fairly similar to me. Love over Robinson.

they aren't. the reason we traded bud is cause parsons took his job 7 games into a season with no training camp. as a rookie

If i were to compare rosters, i'd look at it this way: I'll take harden over love personally cause of injury concerns and the fact that i've seen harden take over when it matters in high pressure situations. Can't say that for love. I cant really compare rubio VS lin until i see rubio come back completely healthy. It wouldnt be fair to rubio otherwise. Pek is obviously a better offensive player (despite asik having a better eFG% and virtually identical TS%) but asik is a better defender and rebounder. plus asik is under contract for the next 3 years and pek will pry get a big contract this offseason.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 01:55 AM
they aren't. the reason we traded bud is cause parsons took his job 7 games into a season with no training camp. as a rookie

If i were to compare rosters, i'd look at it this way: I'll take harden over love personally cause of injury concerns and the fact that i've seen harden take over when it matters in high pressure situations. Can't say that for love. I cant really compare rubio VS lin until i see rubio come back completely healthy. It wouldnt be fair to rubio otherwise. Pek is obviously a better offensive player (despite asik having a better eFG% and virtually identical TS%) but asik is a better defender and rebounder. plus asik is under contract for the next 3 years and pek will pry get a big contract this offseason.

agreed on the injury concerns, and that is literally the only thing that makes me take Harden over Love.

Guppyfighter
02-24-2013, 01:58 AM
Harden is also a top seven player in the league already at 24.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 02:12 AM
Harden is also a top seven player in the league already at 24.

and Love wasn't before injuries wrecked his season?

ChiSox219
02-24-2013, 02:19 AM
agreed on the injury concerns, and that is literally the only thing that makes me take Harden over Love.

Love isn't on Harden's level even when healthy.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 04:17 AM
Love isn't on Harden's level even when healthy.

I know that is your opinion, and you have stated you think he is very overrated. We don't agree. Move on.

Guppyfighter
02-24-2013, 04:39 AM
I know that is your opinion, and you have stated you think he is very overrated. We don't agree. Move on.

Top 8-9. I prefer Harden by a little bit.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 04:43 AM
Love isn't on Harden's level even when healthy.

Lol this guy always makes me laugh.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 04:46 AM
Personally I'll take Love over Harden, but it's not by a tremendous amount or anything. Rubio is better than Lin, Asik is better than Pek, AK47 is better than Parsons, but Parsons is better than Chase. Also it's kind of misleading to compare Shved to Jones, since Jones hasn't been able to really showcase what he's capable of since he's in the D-league.

Guppyfighter
02-24-2013, 04:53 AM
Personally I'll take Love over Harden, but it's not by a tremendous amount or anything. Rubio is better than Lin, Asik is better than Pek, AK47 is better than Parsons, but Parsons is better than Chase. Also it's kind of misleading to compare Shved to Jones, since Jones hasn't been able to really showcase what he's capable of since he's in the D-league.


The reason I take Harden over Klove is positional value. There are less good SG's than PF's. Which makes what Harden does inherently more valuable because it's easier to replace production at the four than the two.

rocketfuel
02-24-2013, 04:53 AM
I don't blame Morey for stockpiling young assets. If anyone remembers, the Rockets were bloated with a bunch of undersized power forwards and combo guards. They were slow, old and overpaid. Morey came in and manage to turn some junk contracts into high value players like Scola. Hence, his legend began. It's not the same as a team that's been in the toilet getting into the lottery every year. Personally, I thought they should have allowed whoever was the GM to go into the lottery for several years, but Morey had to work with what he had. The organization had to dig itself out of a roster full of bad contracts. They've managed to go young and talented, with a lot of flexibility. A lot of the non-Rocket fans haven't even watched many Rocket games and are only reading box scores. This young team is playing at a faster speed and are more talented than they were severalyears ago.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 05:02 AM
The reason I take Harden over Klove is positional value. There are less good SG's than PF's. Which makes what Harden does inherently more valuable because it's easier to replace production at the four than the two.

Yea, I understand that. After the top 3 SG's (I kind of struggle putting Manu there sometimes) there's a massive dropoff in production. But great/good PFs are a dime a dozen.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 05:04 AM
Who's in your top 7 anyways?

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 05:05 AM
The reason I take Harden over Klove is positional value. There are less good SG's than PF's. Which makes what Harden does inherently more valuable because it's easier to replace production at the four than the two.

positional value? I get your view, but a player is a player. Not Love's fault SG's are weak.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 05:06 AM
Personally I'll take Love over Harden, but it's not by a tremendous amount or anything. Rubio is better than Lin, Asik is better than Pek, AK47 is better than Parsons, but Parsons is better than Chase. Also it's kind of misleading to compare Shved to Jones, since Jones hasn't been able to really showcase what he's capable of since he's in the D-league.

200+ games missed due to injury this year for the Wolves, and counting. They can't possibly be evaluated fairly, they were machine gunned by injuries.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 05:07 AM
From a team building/upside perspective, I actually agree. But i don't think Harden is better than Love, YET. We'll see.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 05:10 AM
200+ games missed due to injury this year for the Wolves, and counting. They can't possibly be evaluated fairly, they were machine gunned by injuries.

Nah, I'm basing it more on prior knowledge + expected and current production. I don't anything that I'm saying is that bad.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 06:10 AM
I don't feel that Lin is a long-term solution nor that Parsons is anything more than an average wing who has become overrated in part because of Houston's inflated offense. I would like to think that maybe they see Thomas Robinson as their future 4 and will develop him, but chances are they flip him within 2 years.
Chances are he will make the right decision with Robinson when the time comes. Dont see what this post has to do with anything I said tho, inflation? Based on what exactly? Even if it were true, the point remained he rendered Budinger useless to them.


I get that the Rockets owner doesn't want to go into a re-build and so that forces Morey to stay out of the lottery, but he really hasn't done anything with the picks he's gotten.
That is simply not true. Hes a great drafter



Saying he keeps turning over his roster looking for that next piece is a plan, is accepting a pretty lousy plan.
I dont see why considering he just nabbed Harden.


When is this superstar supposed to happen?
He found a piece he can build around in Harden so its already begun. Quite a great turnaround when you consider his situation.


I'd trust a lousy GM more with the dumb luck of drafting someone who turns out to be a star than this notion that players can be accumulated as assets and eventually be moved for a star.
Yea I dont trust those odds, particularly if they were in Houstons situation where the owner saw rebuilding through losing as much as possible as a non-possibility. And I can understand why Houston would rather do it their way, its how they've acquired a few stars in the past.


Danny Ainge turned a 13th, 15th and 18th pick into a superstar (Telfair, Big Al and Gerald Green for Garnett). Similar picks to what Houston got but Ainge made good choices and developed those players enough to make them desirable.
Ironically enough, some of those choices were influenced by Morey IIRC. Not sure what this post is meant to show.



As far as cap space, we all know full well that cap space often means very little. If players don't want to be a part of your city/team or you don't offer enough money, that cap is just money not spent. What free agent has been attracted to the Rockets in the last decade? The overpaid Trevor Ariza?
From what Ive heard Houston is actually one of the most desirable locations outside of the MEGA markets, they just have to be on an ascending path. With Harden locked up and an ascending core, this will be the first time Houston has boatloads of cap space to go with a budding star.

When they had Tmac and Yao healthy, players were vocal about wanting to be in Houston, some took less money than their market dictated, others wished Houston had the cap space.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 06:15 AM
I don't think anyone would deny Morey isn't an excellent GM, its just that he is always mentioned as a genius, when his teams haven't performed to that level for multiple reasons.
I dont see your point.


I also see the stands don't have people in them, and that is part of a GM's job as well.
I dont think it is, Im pretty sure thats left to the marketing department. Besides, thats such a small part of his job when compared to the scale of his other responsibilities.


Like I said in my last post, top 5-6 GM, bringing Kahn into this discussion is a joke, no need for it, I just think he is talked about like he is Presti or Buford at times, which is not where he belongs. Yet.

Disagree.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 06:23 AM
Even Chronz did that **** in his first post to topdog. This thread isn't about David Kahn, so if that is the response towards a Wolves fan, that is pathetic.
I disagree.

The reason for that was to provide context for Moreys asset flipping moves. Because his complaint was that Morey doesn't seem to care how players fit and whatnot

Chronz
02-24-2013, 06:25 AM
....... Buddinger and Parsons are fairly similar to me.
Can you objectively explain how a player on a rookie scale deal who already beat out the same competitor in the depth chart is similar? Do we just disregard salary, defense and potential?

Manimal
02-24-2013, 12:03 PM
Traded away 25th pick in 2008 draft (Nicolas Batum) for what turned out to be Donte Greene and Joey Dorsey.

Also while selecting those two, passed on Asik, DeAndre Jordan, Nikola Pekovic and Goran Dragic.

In 2010, selected Patterson with the 14th pick. Passing on Larry Sanders, Eric Bledsoe and Avery Bradley.

But then in 2011 he selects Marcus Morris and Motiejunas, two mores PFs. Not only that, passes on guys like Kawhi, Vucevic, Shumpert and Faried. I realize Faried is a PF too but he's better than the other two.

But he follows that with 2012 where he selects White and Jones. Who are, wait for it, both PFs again.

Turned Morris a lottery pick into a second rounder.

Traded Patterson for, you guessed it, another PF.

Soon to rename the franchise, the Houston Power Forwards.

valade16
02-24-2013, 12:42 PM
People act like Morey is godly with his prowess. They point to his ability to "rebuild the team while still remaining competitive for the playoffs".

They have missed the last 3 playoffs...

He's done such a great job rebuilding he has them currently at the 8th seed with the possibility of once again missing the playoffs for the 4th year in a row.

Is he a good GM? Yes. Has he done a good job? Yes. Is he this Godly talent that is a supergenius playing the rest of the league? Not by a long shot...

ChiSox219
02-24-2013, 12:42 PM
I know that is your opinion, and you have stated you think he is very overrated. We don't agree. Move on.

It's not so much about Love being overrated but Harden being underrated. Someone said the other day "however good you think James Harden is, he's better" and that is so true. He's a blend of Steve Nash and Michael Jordan and is a true franchise building block. Morey got him for pennies and that alone is enough to justify exec of the year in my opinion.

valade16
02-24-2013, 01:07 PM
It's not so much about Love being overrated but Harden being underrated. Someone said the other day "however good you think James Harden is, he's better" and that is so true. He's a blend of Steve Nash and Michael Jordan and is a true franchise building block. Morey got him for pennies and that alone is enough to justify exec of the year in my opinion.

:laugh2:

astrosmaniac
02-24-2013, 02:11 PM
Traded away 25th pick in 2008 draft (Nicolas Batum) for what turned out to be Donte Greene and Joey Dorsey.

Also while selecting those two, passed on Asik, DeAndre Jordan, Nikola Pekovic and Goran Dragic.

In 2010, selected Patterson with the 14th pick. Passing on Larry Sanders, Eric Bledsoe and Avery Bradley.

But then in 2011 he selects Marcus Morris and Motiejunas, two mores PFs. Not only that, passes on guys like Kawhi, Vucevic, Shumpert and Faried. I realize Faried is a PF too but he's better than the other two.

But he follows that with 2012 where he selects White and Jones. Who are, wait for it, both PFs again.

Turned Morris a lottery pick into a second rounder.

Traded Patterson for, you guessed it, another PF.

Soon to rename the franchise, the Houston Power Forwards.

he traded batum for green to flip as the centerpiece for the artest deal...

you also have to look at trades he's made. He traded Spanulis for Scola. Brooks for Dragic and a 1st. Flynn and Thabeet for Camby, Rafer Alston for Lowry and a pick, Trevor Ariza for Courtney Lee, Donte Green for Artest, T-Mac broken down contract and Landry for Martin.

If you trace it out, he actually got Harden for a 1st, Rafer Alston and T-Mac'c contract: Alston for Lowry, Lowry for Toronto pick, Pick in the deal for Harden. T-mac for Martin and Hill, Hill for a pick, Martin and the pick used in the deal.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 02:46 PM
he traded batum for green to flip as the centerpiece for the artest deal...

you also have to look at trades he's made. He traded Spanulis for Scola. Brooks for Dragic and a 1st. Flynn and Thabeet for Camby, Rafer Alston for Lowry and a pick, Trevor Ariza for Courtney Lee, Donte Green for Artest, T-Mac broken down contract and Landry for Martin.

If you trace it out, he actually got Harden for a 1st, Rafer Alston and T-Mac'c contract: Alston for Lowry, Lowry for Toronto pick, Pick in the deal for Harden. T-mac for Martin and Hill, Hill for a pick, Martin and the pick used in the deal.

He might be winning trades, but the team isn't winning.

He might be good at finding value in the second round of the draft but he blows at picking in the lottery.

And if you're a PF in the upcoming draft, chances are you're going to the Houston Power Forwards.

alexander_37
02-24-2013, 02:58 PM
He might be winning trades, but the team isn't winning.

He might be good at finding value in the second round of the draft but he blows at picking in the lottery.

And if you're a PF in the upcoming draft, chances are you're going to the Houston Power Forwards.

Isn't winning???? They have the 13th best record, are over .500, and a better record than the Lakers.... Isn't winning?

Manimal
02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Isn't winning???? They have the 13th best record, are over .500, and a better record than the Lakers.... Isn't winning?

The Lakers are no barometer for success this season.

And they have the 13th best record, up from 17th best in the previous two seasons. How much better have they gotten? Inspite of having draft picks coming out of their ears and supposed trades and free agent signings that Morey has been "winning".

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:14 PM
I dont see your point.

What are you missing? Morey is put on the same pedestal as the GM's who constantly put out great teams. I don't believe he belongs there.


I dont think it is, Im pretty sure thats left to the marketing department. Besides, thats such a small part of his job when compared to the scale of his other responsibilities.

Marketing department has to sell the product. The GM creates that product to an extent, and Houston doesn't care about this team, I know, I live here. Part of the reason why is because Morey has used players as chips for the past few years, so there is nobody for the fans to identify with, hence no interest.


Disagree.

And that's fine. He belongs with them when the Rockets are as good as those GM's teams constantly are. To me at least.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:16 PM
It's not so much about Love being overrated but Harden being underrated. Someone said the other day "however good you think James Harden is, he's better" and that is so true. He's a blend of Steve Nash and Michael Jordan and is a true franchise building block. Morey got him for pennies and that alone is enough to justify exec of the year in my opinion.

Nah man, I am saying that because you have shown your personal opinion regarding Love. I respect you as a poster, we have had our discussions, I believe you underrate Love, simple.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:17 PM
People act like Morey is godly with his prowess. They point to his ability to "rebuild the team while still remaining competitive for the playoffs".

They have missed the last 3 playoffs...

He's done such a great job rebuilding he has them currently at the 8th seed with the possibility of once again missing the playoffs for the 4th year in a row.

Is he a good GM? Yes. Has he done a good job? Yes. Is he this Godly talent that is a supergenius playing the rest of the league? Not by a long shot...

Exactly, and that is the only reason I came into this thread. People act like he is on the Presti/Buford/Kupchak level. Cmon...

alexander_37
02-24-2013, 03:18 PM
The Lakers are no barometer for success this season.

And they have the 13th best record, up from 17th best in the previous two seasons. How much better have they gotten? Inspite of having draft picks coming out of their ears and supposed trades and free agent signings that Morey has been "winning".

So they cut about 4-5 years off the teams average age, gained picks, are winning more games, and have another max contract to offer. But nah that's nothing.... Seriously?

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:21 PM
So they cut about 4-5 years off the teams average age, gained picks, are winning more games, and have another max contract to offer. But nah that's nothing.... Seriously?

I feel like I am stuck in the middle in this thread haha. I really do think Morey is an excellent GM. I think his plan finally has a direction that will lead to sustained success for a number of years. I just have a problem, like I keep saying, with putting him in the same convo as the GM's who routinely put out contenders. Will I put him there if he can give Harden a running mate and the Rox are perennial 55-60 win teams? Sure, he would have earned it. But he is not there yet, and I am sick of reading that he is...

Sportfan
02-24-2013, 03:24 PM
Are we forgetting what Morey did 2 years ago already? Cp3 trade anyone? The NBA saved his ***

heyman321
02-24-2013, 03:24 PM
Traded away 25th pick in 2008 draft (Nicolas Batum) for what turned out to be Donte Greene and Joey Dorsey.

Also while selecting those two, passed on Asik, DeAndre Jordan, Nikola Pekovic and Goran Dragic.

In 2010, selected Patterson with the 14th pick. Passing on Larry Sanders, Eric Bledsoe and Avery Bradley.

But then in 2011 he selects Marcus Morris and Motiejunas, two mores PFs. Not only that, passes on guys like Kawhi, Vucevic, Shumpert and Faried. I realize Faried is a PF too but he's better than the other two.

But he follows that with 2012 where he selects White and Jones. Who are, wait for it, both PFs again.

Turned Morris a lottery pick into a second rounder.

Traded Patterson for, you guessed it, another PF.

Soon to rename the franchise, the Houston Power Forwards.

Who cares? He fleeced James Harden. Harden is better than all those players combined.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 03:25 PM
So they cut about 4-5 years off the teams average age, gained picks, are winning more games, and have another max contract to offer. But nah that's nothing.... Seriously?

Nothing? Not nothing.

But it's not anything TREMENDOUS. They went from mediocre to promising after three seasons.

And like Kevin McHale said Cap Room never scored a bucket.

He's done decent, nothing extraordinary yet. And he has been on the job for 7 years now?

He's not a bad GM but not someone who's turning **** into gold as its being implied by some people here.

And being a good GM in this league isn't that hard considering that there are 20 others out there who have no idea what they are doing.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 03:26 PM
I feel like I am stuck in the middle in this thread haha. I really do think Morey is an excellent GM. I think his plan finally has a direction that will lead to sustained success for a number of years. I just have a problem, like I keep saying, with putting him in the same convo as the GM's who routinely put out contenders. Will I put him there if he can give Harden a running mate and the Rox are perennial 55-60 win teams? Sure, he would have earned it. But he is not there yet, and I am sick of reading that he is...

This. I can agree with.

alexander_37
02-24-2013, 03:26 PM
I feel like I am stuck in the middle in this thread haha. I really do think Morey is an excellent GM. I think his plan finally has a direction that will lead to sustained success for a number of years. I just have a problem, like I keep saying, with putting him in the same convo as the GM's who routinely put out contenders. Will I put him there if he can give Harden a running mate and the Rox are perennial 55-60 win teams? Sure, he would have earned it. But he is not there yet, and I am sick of reading that he is...

I just have respect for the way he does it with what he has.

He has had 0 top 10 let alone 1st overall picks.

He made one trade for a star player, but it wasn't a sell the future for a Lebron or Melo type trade. He got an unproven potential star for relatively cheap.

He hasn't gone out in FA and given a max contract to a guy like Amar'e, and hasn't gotten the luck to have a guy like Lebron choose to go there.

I just can't give credit to guys who tank and take a no brainer 1st overall, or guys who get chosen by FA and just give them the money. That doesn't take skill, just the right market.

Morey does it the hard way which is why I give him credit.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 03:27 PM
Are we forgetting what Morey did 2 years ago already? Cp3 trade anyone? The NBA saved his ***

TBH, Pau would have been great with the Rockets. I think he got unlucky there.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:28 PM
I just have respect for the way he does it with what he has.

He has had 0 top 10 let alone 1st overall picks.

He made one trade for a star player, but it wasn't a sell the future for a Lebron or Melo type trade. He got an unproven potential star for relatively cheap.

He hasn't gone out in FA and given a max contract to a guy like Amar'e, and hasn't gotten the luck to have a guy like Lebron choose to go there.

I just can't give credit to guys who tank and take a no brainer 1st overall, or guys who get chosen by FA and just give them the money. That doesn't take skill, just the right market.

Morey does it the hard way which is why I give him credit.

And I am agreeing with you. I am just sick of reading his name alongside Presti, Buford, or Kupchak for example. He doesn't belong with them yet.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-24-2013, 03:28 PM
Can't wait for the offseason, Morey has positioned the Rockets to make a big splash! Coming into this year i viewed it as a rebuilding year. But they've competed and have managed to stay in the playoff picture. If i was Morey i would wait another year, and through a Max deal to Kevin Love. There are many routes he can take, but the first time in years the Rockets are desireable and the future looks very bright!

alexander_37
02-24-2013, 03:28 PM
he traded batum for green to flip as the centerpiece for the artest deal...

you also have to look at trades he's made. He traded Spanulis for Scola. Brooks for Dragic and a 1st. Flynn and Thabeet for Camby, Rafer Alston for Lowry and a pick, Trevor Ariza for Courtney Lee, Donte Green for Artest, T-Mac broken down contract and Landry for Martin.

If you trace it out, he actually got Harden for a 1st, Rafer Alston and T-Mac'c contract: Alston for Lowry, Lowry for Toronto pick, Pick in the deal for Harden. T-mac for Martin and Hill, Hill for a pick, Martin and the pick used in the deal.


Nothing? Not nothing.

But it's not anything TREMENDOUS. They went from mediocre to promising after three seasons.

And like Kevin McHale said Cap Room never scored a bucket.

He's done decent, nothing extraordinary yet. And he has been on the job for 7 years now?

He's not a bad GM but not someone who's turning **** into gold as its being implied by some people here.

And being a good GM in this league isn't that hard considering that there are 20 others out there who have no idea what they are doing.
Excuse me?

Sportfan
02-24-2013, 03:29 PM
TBH, Pau would have been great with the Rockets. I think he got unlucky there.

He wouldn't have Harden.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:29 PM
Can't wait for the offseason, Morey has positioned the Rockets to make a big splash! Coming into this year i viewed it as a rebuilding year. But they've competed and have managed to stay in the playoff picture. If i was Morey i would wait another year, and through a Max deal to Kevin Love. There are many routes he can take, but the first time in years the Rockets are desireable and the future looks very bright!

Love won't be available until 2 more offseasons at the earliest to sign a contract.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 03:41 PM
Excuse me?

Let me reframe it, it's not like everything he touches turns to gold.

Like you have no response for the 4593 PF's he drafted while passing on better players. Or the fact hat he turned Morris, a lottery pick, into a second rounder.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-24-2013, 03:44 PM
Love won't be available until 2 more offseasons at the earliest to sign a contract.

Then we shall wait! Lol a friend of mine told me he would be eligible for free agency next year, i should of looked it up! But either way they could also possibly sign Josh Smith and Dwight Howard. But i feel Dwight is done if his back is truely injured. Plus Asik is more than capable of being a starting center, he does everything a center should do, besides the offense. Why does Kupchak get so much praise? If anything the Lakers brand and market is what lures star players to play in LA. To me he hasnt done anything extradionary to merit his praise. Presti granted did draft wonderfuly, but he had 3 top 10 lottery picks, its hard not to strike out when your drafting that high. Buford in my opinion is the best in the league, i'm always impressed the way San Antonio has managed their franchise over the past decade.

alexander_37
02-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Let me reframe it, it's not like everything he touches turns to gold.

Like you have no response for the 4593 PF's he drafted while passing on better players. Or the fact hat he turned Morris, a lottery pick, into a second rounder.

Motie is looking solid in his first few games, Patterson was flipped for a much more talented player, everyone knew White could be a problem and it is getting sorted out, and Jones COULD play the 3.

I have no problem with this. Also Morris is a terrible rebounder and fouled like it was his job. Basically a pure 3 point shooter at this point.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 03:57 PM
Then we shall wait! Lol a friend of mine told me he would be eligible for free agency next year, i should of looked it up! But either way they could also possibly sign Josh Smith and Dwight Howard. But i feel Dwight is done if his back is truely injured. Plus Asik is more than capable of being a starting center, he does everything a center should do, besides the offense. Why does Kupchak get so much praise? If anything the Lakers brand and market is what lures star players to play in LA. To me he hasnt done anything extradionary to merit his praise. Presti granted did draft wonderfuly, but he had 3 top 10 lottery picks, its hard not to strike out when your drafting that high. Buford in my opinion is the best in the league, i'm always impressed the way San Antonio has managed their franchise over the past decade.

The Lakers are the best franchise in the NBA over the past 30 years, as far as winning, and have won 5 titles since 2000. Kupchak deserves the praise. Presti may have knocked it out of the park in the draft, but saying having high lottery picks makes it easy is not true, otherwise there wouldn't be teams that live in the lottery, year after year. Buford imho, is in a class of his own over the past 15 years.

rocketfuel
02-24-2013, 03:57 PM
Well, you evaluate GMs on the deck they were dealt and how they handled it. The Rockets were buried with bad contracts and very little enticing assets. How Morey made his reputation was by fleecing teams and getting pretty unbelievable deals. And, you can look through every hot GM's record and point out guys they have missed. What makes a great GM is one that can make strong bold moves and not boneheaded ones like Isiah Thomas. Sure, we would love it if Morey had consistent lottery picks to work with or had a glamour city to entice with glam lifestyle, but he doesn't. He's had 2nd rounders and lower picks to wheel and deal and he's done a lot with them. How many GMs can dig a team out of the hole they were in with the very unattractive contracts they had.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 03:58 PM
Motie is looking solid in his first few games, Patterson was flipped for a much more talented player, everyone knew White could be a problem and it is getting sorted out, and Jones COULD play the 3.

I have no problem with this. Also Morris is a terrible rebounder and fouled like it was his job. Basically a pure 3 point shooter at this point.

Lolwhat? I know all that about Royce White and Morris. Just by saying it doesn't explain them. They were bad decisions.

He flipped Patterson for a higher pick, who has been a bust until now in the NBA. I hope it works out for T-Rob.

But that still doesn't justify drafting only PFs while passing on guards, SF and C's who are right now part of the rotation in good teams.

Manimal
02-24-2013, 04:00 PM
Well, you evaluate GMs on the deck they were dealt and how they handled it. The Rockets were buried with bad contracts and very little enticing assets. How Morey made his reputation was by fleecing teams and getting pretty unbelievable deals. And, you can look through every hot GM's record and point out guys they have missed. What makes a great GM is one that can make strong bold moves and not boneheaded ones like Isiah Thomas. Sure, we would love it if Morey had consistent lottery picks to work with or had a glamour city to entice with glam lifestyle, but he doesn't. He's had 2nd rounders and lower picks to wheel and deal and he's done a lot with them. How many GMs can dig a team out of the hole they were in with the very unattractive contracts they had.

Everybody looks good compared to Isaiah FFS.

alexander_37
02-24-2013, 04:01 PM
Lolwhat? I know all that about Royce White and Morris. Just by saying it doesn't explain them. They were bad decisions.

He flipped Patterson for a higher pick, who has been a bust until now in the NBA. I hope it works out for T-Rob.

But that still doesn't justify drafting only PFs while passing on guards, SF and C's who are right now part of the rotation in good teams.

So the only real bad move was Morris. You can't call a 5th overall a bust after half a season......

Chronz
02-24-2013, 04:22 PM
Morey is put on the same pedestal as the GM's who constantly put out great teams. I don't believe he belongs there.

Thats not how I measure a GM's skill so I dont see the point.



Marketing department has to sell the product. The GM creates that product to an extent, and Houston doesn't care about this team, I know, I live here. Part of the reason why is because Morey has used players as chips for the past few years, so there is nobody for the fans to identify with, hence no interest.
Yea I dont buy that, even when they had the T-Mac/Yao core it was a struggle to get fans to sell out, they had to start the red rowdies for that very reason, their homecourt advantage was non-existent. Its obviously gotten worse now but I see that as a byproduct of the market and lack of winning.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 04:31 PM
and have won 5 titles since 2000. Kupchak deserves the praise.
So he inherits Jerry West's squad, only to let it decay, and he deserves the praise? LMFAO for doing what exactly? If it wasn't West, it was Shaq recruiting. The best draft pick in terms of value was Bynum and he wasn't even Kupcakes guy. The best thing he ever did was not listen to Kobe's demand for trades. I dont know what to make of his decision to absorb Brian Grant's huge salary that kept the Lakers from utilizing their cap space. Overall, hes a very mediocre GM, if your standard for measuring GM's has him around the top then I dont respect that barometer. Hes an inept drafter, his biggest asset is that hes had Kobe/Shaq in a big city to lure players. Hes allowed 2 championship cores to whither IMO.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 04:34 PM
Well, you evaluate GMs on the deck they were dealt and how they handled it. The Rockets were buried with bad contracts and very little enticing assets. How Morey made his reputation was by fleecing teams and getting pretty unbelievable deals. And, you can look through every hot GM's record and point out guys they have missed. What makes a great GM is one that can make strong bold moves and not boneheaded ones like Isiah Thomas. Sure, we would love it if Morey had consistent lottery picks to work with or had a glamour city to entice with glam lifestyle, but he doesn't. He's had 2nd rounders and lower picks to wheel and deal and he's done a lot with them. How many GMs can dig a team out of the hole they were in with the very unattractive contracts they had.

Perfect post.

Outside of maybe 2-3 GM's, I dont see anyone being as consistently money as Morey has been.

Imagine if he inherited a team that had a championship core, man he would keep that ship running a long time. If Tmac and Yao werent so brittle they would have been contending to this day, the pace at which he supplied a championship caliber supporting cast was impressive.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 04:44 PM
Exactly, and that is the only reason I came into this thread. People act like he is on the Presti/Buford/Kupchak level. Cmon...
Kupcake wishes he could sniff Morey's jock. Morey wishes Houston had the lure of LA. Thats the only difference

Verbal Christ
02-24-2013, 05:28 PM
the guy is doing a great job keeping this team relevant. and giving the city hope and excitement, albeit with moves that carry more potential than guranteed promise, including harden. to say that he's not in the class of elite GM's is correct only in the vane that it has not produced championships. for every other buisness aspect of buying high, selling low and continuing a cash flow that guy is very progressive. not fair to knock him when his model of analytics to determine value on players is being copied around the league. he hits on guys that nobody has ever heard of on an insane amount of players. he turns 2nd rounders into 1st rounders. he does make mistakes, but for the most part Dork Elvis is one of the best GM's in the league, and after he gets this max level guy this year, maybe a ring or two will substantiate him in people's eyes.

i like the fact he's not being complacent and happy with a mediocre team. picking 14th every year ****ing sucks. i like the fact he'll cut his losses quick on misses. will trade away so-called 'best' players for ammunition later. wont budge to player option demands.and will always have the team comfortably with leverage in almost all deals. fair to say he isnt a championship GM, not so much to say he isnt on the level 'talent' wise.

topdog
02-24-2013, 06:01 PM
Chances are he will make the right decision with Robinson when the time comes. Dont see what this post has to do with anything I said tho, inflation? Based on what exactly? Even if it were true, the point remained he rendered Budinger useless to them.

Inflation based upon them scoring the 2nd most points in the league while giving up the 2nd most points in the league. They have a 46.3% FG% but opponents shoot 45.9%. In essence, they have the type of numbers for a team that considers more offense as the best defense and therefore offensive numbers will be more inflated than they would be on teams that value defense more.

I'm not saying that the Budinger deal was a bad thing or anything along those lines (I don't like the choice made with the pick) rather I am simply saying that Budinger and Parsons are similar players.



That is simply not true. Hes a great drafter

On what basis? He has drafted all of what? One player that he's actually kept? He just dumped Morris. White hasn't played a game. Patterson was an okay starter. Since you brought up Kahn before, I think it's funny that Kahn got so much **** for drafting several point guards in a point-heavy draft (and traded most), but no one in the media bothers to mention his tendency to draft undersized forwards in draft after draft. I know he got Budinger and Parsons in the second round, but I expect that just like I expect that the Spurs should have taken a lottery-level talent like Dajuan Blair in the 2nd round.


I dont see why considering he just nabbed Harden.

Great move (love for OKC too), but okay so what's next? It's 6 years in and he's found someone to build around. How long does it take before he finds that 2nd star? I don't see much method or much of a plan on how to get to that next step because the Rockets are very much in the same place with Harden as they were before him but with a few less assets and a bit more cap.


He found a piece he can build around in Harden so its already begun. Quite a great turnaround when you consider his situation.

I will give credit to Morey for keeping his team relevant in the standings and trying to improve without tanking, but I think the credit that he gets is overblown and his mistakes are rarely called out (and that by stray posters like myself).


Yea I dont trust those odds, particularly if they were in Houstons situation where the owner saw rebuilding through losing as much as possible as a non-possibility. And I can understand why Houston would rather do it their way, its how they've acquired a few stars in the past.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. I won't push this because it is a matter of opinion but I'll go back to what you said about Kahn and inheriting Love. Sometimes it's luck and sometimes people try to outsmart their way out of a rather easily solvable problem.


Ironically enough, some of those choices were influenced by Morey IIRC. Not sure what this post is meant to show.

This point shows that big deals can happen with 14 and 15 picks when you make good draft selections and develop players. I hear too many Rockets fans giving Morey the excuse that he only has mid-first round picks to work with. Ainge turned mid-firsts into Kevin Garnett. Al Jefferson was a mid-first. You may say that none of the guys Morey hasn't picked (Bledsoe, Leonard, ect) have turned into stars but we cannot neglect matters of fit and opportunity which could have totally changed their progression as players.


From what Ive heard Houston is actually one of the most desirable locations outside of the MEGA markets, they just have to be on an ascending path. With Harden locked up and an ascending core, this will be the first time Houston has boatloads of cap space to go with a budding star.

Houston may have cap this summer but a number of other teams will too such as Dallas (MEGA market), Atlanta, Milwaukee, possibly LAC (if Paul leaves, ect) and that's assuming that the available stars don't re-sign for cushier contracts.


When they had Tmac and Yao healthy, players were vocal about wanting to be in Houston, some took less money than their market dictated, others wished Houston had the cap space.

Who actually came though? Trevor Ariza and... I just don't see a recent history that supports the idea that Houston will be able to reel a star player in.

topdog
02-24-2013, 06:08 PM
Can you objectively explain how a player on a rookie scale deal who already beat out the same competitor in the depth chart is similar? Do we just disregard salary, defense and potential?

When McHale took over, a lot of the Adelman regulars lost their spots. Salary certainly is important but is mostly irrelevant as Budinger is still on his rookie deal for the moment. I don't understand what the argument about defense is as neither is an excellent defender and their defensive ratings are within 2 points of each other while neither has astounding defensive stats otherwise. Potential is in the eye of the beholder. I don't expect either to ascend very much further from where they are but simply to better define their roles and capabilities on their respective teams.

Here is the comparison of their careers so far:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=budinch01&y1=2013&p2=parsoch01&y2=2013

Per 36, Budinger would seem to be the better player by a hair imo.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 07:23 PM
When McHale took over, a lot of the Adelman regulars lost their spots.

So wouldn't that make sending Bud out logical? A sitting player has no on court value.


Salary certainly is important but is mostly irrelevant as Budinger is still on his rookie deal for the moment. I don't understand what the argument about defense is as neither is an excellent defender and their defensive ratings are within 2 points of each other while neither has astounding defensive stats otherwise.

When they played together, Parson had the better on court/off court splits. When he left the floor the defense saw a slight decrease and the offense also dropped. Chase's absence bought forth virtually no offense or defensive dropoffs. Also Bud is in the last year of his rookie contract while Parsons goes into the 2014-2015 season.


Potential is in the eye of the beholder. I don't expect either to ascend very much further from where they are but simply to better define their roles and capabilities on their respective teams.

Here is the comparison of their careers so far:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=budinch01&y1=2013&p2=parsoch01&y2=2013

Per 36, Budinger would seem to be the better player by a hair imo.

Yea but Parsons still has the higher ceiling, if only for his defensive capabilities.

topdog
02-24-2013, 07:41 PM
So wouldn't that make sending Bud out logical? A sitting player has no on court value.

When they played together, Parson had the better on court/off court splits. When he left the floor the defense saw a slight decrease and the offense also dropped. Chase's absence bought forth virtually no offense or defensive dropoffs. Also Bud is in the last year of his rookie contract while Parsons goes into the 2014-2015 season.

Yea but Parsons still has the higher ceiling, if only for his defensive capabilities.

This is not something I want to argue to death. I don't remember really posting anything to set this off other than I liked the Wolves roster better than Houston and, in explaining my reasoning, that I thought Bud and Parsons were fairly similar in quality on the teams they now are on. I felt like the Budinger deal was good for both teams but that Houston could have made a better selection with the pick they got.

There are different number we could use to debate but essentially Budinger has better offensive numbers and Parsons has slightly better defensive numbers. I don't feel that either is that much better to really make a difference in the overall assessment of which team I would rather have.

astrosmaniac
02-24-2013, 07:44 PM
Inflation based upon them scoring the 2nd most points in the league while giving up the 2nd most points in the league. They have a 46.3% FG% but opponents shoot 45.9%. In essence, they have the type of numbers for a team that considers more offense as the best defense and therefore offensive numbers will be more inflated than they would be on teams that value defense more.

I'm not saying that the Budinger deal was a bad thing or anything along those lines (I don't like the choice made with the pick) rather I am simply saying that Budinger and Parsons are similar players.

you can't use the system as the argument when parsons and bud were in the same system and parsons out performed him despite being a 2nd round rookie without a training camp. I can't imagine that some one who isnt a wolves fan would take bud over parsons.


On what basis? He has drafted all of what? One player that he's actually kept? He just dumped Morris. White hasn't played a game. Patterson was an okay starter. Since you brought up Kahn before, I think it's funny that Kahn got so much **** for drafting several point guards in a point-heavy draft (and traded most), but no one in the media bothers to mention his tendency to draft undersized forwards in draft after draft. I know he got Budinger and Parsons in the second round, but I expect that just like I expect that the Spurs should have taken a lottery-level talent like Dajuan Blair in the 2nd round.



Great move (love for OKC too), but okay so what's next? It's 6 years in and he's found someone to build around. How long does it take before he finds that 2nd star? I don't see much method or much of a plan on how to get to that next step because the Rockets are very much in the same place with Harden as they were before him but with a few less assets and a bit more cap.

He inherited a core of yao/t-mac. and when those guys were healthy it was a 55 win team. so you really cant say it took 6 years to find a star. they had 2. basically once yao retired is when the team went into "find a new star mode", and the owned wouldnt let him gut the roster to try and find one. So he stockpiled assets while trying to compete (arguably the hardest thing to do in sports) and then got one in Harden.

And they aren't in the same spot as before harden. They are a better team already, but they are also younger and have more potential. Even if they dont add anyone else (which i dont think will happen), they have the potential to be a top 3 team in the west with this roster in a year or 2.


I will give credit to Morey for keeping his team relevant in the standings and trying to improve without tanking, but I think the credit that he gets is overblown and his mistakes are rarely called out (and that by stray posters like myself).

I'll call out his mistakes: The trade for terrance williams was a bust. Everyone in our forum wanted Leonard over morris. Ariza was overpaid. Royce White COULD end up giving us nothing (too early to say). The difference with morey is he fixes those problems quickly. He doesn't try and "prove" he was right by sticking with them no matter what. Ariza was shipped out for Lee, Morris was shipped out for a pick that is useful whether we keep it or use it as a chip. williams is gone. Tons of draft people were saying talent wise, White was a sure fire top 10 pick, possibly top 5. In a draft with 3 1st rounders and a roster with no stars at the time, i have no problem with him gambling on the highest upside player


Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. I won't push this because it is a matter of opinion but I'll go back to what you said about Kahn and inheriting Love. Sometimes it's luck and sometimes people try to outsmart their way out of a rather easily solvable problem.

Luck has nothing to do with evaluating someone. I could say "Look at Kahn: He inherited a superstar and still hasn't made the playoffs. He's horrible." But i dont, because thats asinine and there are more factors than that

This point shows that big deals can happen with 14 and 15 picks when you make good draft selections and develop players. I hear too many Rockets fans giving Morey the excuse that he only has mid-first round picks to work with. Ainge turned mid-firsts into Kevin Garnett. Al Jefferson was a mid-first. You may say that none of the guys Morey hasn't picked (Bledsoe, Leonard, ect) have turned into stars but we cannot neglect matters of fit and opportunity which could have totally changed their progression as players.

Yes ainge turned thse into Garnett. Guess what? Morey was a big part of the Celtics front office when they drafted the players that led to that trade. And Morey did something similar with Harden. He turned a top 20 protected pick, a lotto pick, a #12 player, and an expiring veteran into harden.

You're right, fit is important. Why didn't we draft bledsoe or bradley? We had brooks and lowry, 2 starting quality guys on the roster. The 2 best players we passed on that we should have taken were leonard or farried, but both are guys i'd consider the 3rd best player on a championship level teams at best. God players to have, but it's not like we missed out of a franchise cornerstone.

Houston may have cap this summer but a number of other teams will too such as Dallas (MEGA market), Atlanta, Milwaukee, possibly LAC (if Paul leaves, ect) and that's assuming that the available stars don't re-sign for cushier contracts.

Paul isn't going to leave. Atlanta pretty much only has horford (like literally 2/3rds of the roster is expirings), milwaukee isnt even .500 and might miss the playoffs in the east, dallas is old and dirk's not going to be any better than he is now. Meanwhile Houston has a top 10 player locked up for 5 years with the youngest team in the league. They are the most desirable FA spot this offseason

Who actually came though? Trevor Ariza and... I just don't see a recent history that supports the idea that Houston will be able to reel a star player in.

.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 07:54 PM
Inflation based upon them scoring the 2nd most points in the league while giving up the 2nd most points in the league. They have a 46.3% FG% but opponents shoot 45.9%. In essence, they have the type of numbers for a team that considers more offense as the best defense and therefore offensive numbers will be more inflated than they would be on teams that value defense more.
Ive never heard anyone call playing at a high pace with high efficiency "inflation", at least not since the rise of advanced statistics. Im not seeing what makes the numbers inflated, can you elaborate, any substantial research that suggest this correlation you speak of because from what Ive seen its actually the opposite. Sounds like more baseless accusations under the guise of objective evidence.


I'm not saying that the Budinger deal was a bad thing or anything along those lines (I don't like the choice made with the pick) rather I am simply saying that Budinger and Parsons are similar players.
I mentioned that deal because its an example of Morey flipping an easily replaced player because his contract is about to run out. Those are the kind of moves that are best made rather than committing to a non-essential piece, so when you say hes constantly shuffling, its with intelligence rather than ignorance. I mean keeping Budinger instead of getting more picks to play with would have been a true mistake so its not a bad idea to move on.




On what basis? He has drafted all of what? One player that he's actually kept? He just dumped Morris. White hasn't played a game. Patterson was an okay starter. Since you brought up Kahn before, I think it's funny that Kahn got so much **** for drafting several point guards in a point-heavy draft (and traded most), but no one in the media bothers to mention his tendency to draft undersized forwards in draft after draft. I know he got Budinger and Parsons in the second round, but I expect that just like I expect that the Spurs should have taken a lottery-level talent like Dajuan Blair in the 2nd round.
On the basis that he consistently finds quality players late in the draft. Check out the historical returns from players taken at the positions hes picked vs the production of his actual draft choices.

I just read this piece on ESPN regarding Morey's recent 2nd round pick acquisition.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130222/nba-trade-deadline-winners-losers

With Phoenix in the tank, that pick should fall in the lower 30s in the draft, which is cheaper and essentially the same return as a late first-round pick as this research shows. Carl Landry, Chase Budinger and Chandler Parsons, all Houston second-rounders. Who's up next?

The guy has a proven track record for spotting diamonds in the rough. And what exactly would they have to mention other than Morey's elite at it. The comparison to Kahn is laughable, he had EARLY picks, drafted several PG's in succession, wound up starting the worst of them and trading the best one. In large part due to his inability to comprehend analytics. Whereas Morey had already had great success with those type of players, lest we forget how productive Landry was for them. I mean a +20PER from a rookie in the 2nd round, how often does that happen?


Great move (love for OKC too), but okay so what's next? It's 6 years in and he's found someone to build around. How long does it take before he finds that 2nd star? I don't see much method or much of a plan on how to get to that next step because the Rockets are very much in the same place with Harden as they were before him but with a few less assets and a bit more cap.
I think OKC will regret it in the long run. You say "6 years in" as if his goals were the same every year. When he first got here he had Yao and Tmac and a team that COMPLETELY fell apart whenever T-Mac didn't play. Despite having 2 unstable stars and monstrous contracts attached to them, limiting his flexibility, despite late picks, he still provided the championship caliber support for them. Sadly those 2 stars were decrepit and it was all too late. If he had come to Houston sooner it would have been a different story.

And I dont know how you dont see the plan when its so clearly evident. Having a YOUNGER team that is playing BETTER while ALSO clearing A TON (not "abit") of CAP space represents a huge difference than having an older team with no Harden locked up.




Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. I won't push this because it is a matter of opinion but I'll go back to what you said about Kahn and inheriting Love. Sometimes it's luck and sometimes people try to outsmart their way out of a rather easily solvable problem.
Its always better to be lucky than smart, but Im not going to bank on luck solving problems. Im not going to hire an idiot and hope he can get lucky when I can hire a genius and hope to get lucky. I dont see the point about Kahn here, he inherited Love/Jefferson, imagine if you had a GM who could actually find a competent wing. Morey would have turned Minnesota around by year 2. I mean, your talking about a guy who had to trade his first rounder to get a player (on his final year)that Morey was able to replace with a 2nd rounder.



This point shows that big deals can happen with 14 and 15 picks when you make good draft selections and develop players. I hear too many Rockets fans giving Morey the excuse that he only has mid-first round picks to work with. Ainge turned mid-firsts into Kevin Garnett. Al Jefferson was a mid-first. You may say that none of the guys Morey hasn't picked (Bledsoe, Leonard, ect) have turned into stars but we cannot neglect matters of fit and opportunity which could have totally changed their progression as players.
Yea and Morey is among those rare few who happens to get value despite late picks so I dont see the point your trying to make.



Houston may have cap this summer but a number of other teams will too such as Dallas (MEGA market), Atlanta, Milwaukee, possibly LAC (if Paul leaves, ect) and that's assuming that the available stars don't re-sign for cushier contracts.
Yup, should be an interesting off-season, Houston has alot going for it, its just a matter of whos going to be willing to leave money off the table to reup elsewhere. And Houston has so much cap space that they could offer more in terms of absorbing salaries to help potential trade partners.



Who actually came though? Trevor Ariza and... I just don't see a recent history that supports the idea that Houston will be able to reel a star player in.
Does Tmac not count because he forced his way to Houston rather than sign outright?

Can you give me examples of recent history supporting any star player signing with another team because its sounds ridiculously narrow, I mean before LeBron joined Miami, you saw no evidence of Miami reeling in star players "recently". Thats because they never had CAP space. What you did see was several players try to get to Miami but unable to do so for a variety of reasons. What matters is that there was legit interest. Odom almost left a contending LA team to play in South Beach for less money. So when I hear players talk fondly about certain markets yet end up going elsewhere, I can only conclude that those cities were at least in contention for their services. Houston obviously isn't LA/NY but its pretty high up there so they have reason to be optimistic, especially considering their history/tradition. They have too much history of players trying to get to Houston, Pippen, Chuck, Tmac.

As for which players actually signed, Stromile Swift settled on the MLE just to play with Tmac-Yao when he could have easily gotten more. Bonzi Wells turned down like 8M and wound up signing in Houston for the min. Tho that was more of him overestimating his value and signing with the desired locale.



There has to be the right situation in order to sign someone. You cant sign someone if you dont have the cap space and you cant convince players to take less if you dont offer them the chance at winning.

Houston hasn't been in this situation in a LONG time, where they will have cap space AND a potential superstar in Harden. IIRC, Dwight spoke fondly about Houston's situation, but so did Chris Bosh before he joined Miami. What matters is that Houston is in the conversation.

I mean at the least we can both agree that Houston has much more incentive to play the free agent market than teams like Milwaukee/Minnesota and you guys almost landed Batum so why cant Houston aim alil higher?

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 07:54 PM
Thats not how I measure a GM's skill so I dont see the point.



Yea I dont buy that, even when they had the T-Mac/Yao core it was a struggle to get fans to sell out, they had to start the red rowdies for that very reason, their homecourt advantage was non-existent. Its obviously gotten worse now but I see that as a byproduct of the market and lack of winning.

You can measure it how you like. Name of the game is putting together a contender. I believe Morey is capable of that, but he doesn't belong with some of the names that built contenders yet.

That core was one and done, and underperformed for all sorts of reasons. No doubt this is a football city, but literally nobody gives a **** about the Rox. Morey has flipped players so fast, most people in this city couldn't give you 6 current Rockets. Hopefully that changes, and Morey was tasked to rebuild without tanking, something difficult to do, but I still don't place him amongst the best of the best GM's, like I constantly read about him.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 07:56 PM
If I see another Morey versus Kahn post, I am going to puke. I would give my left kidney to have Morey replace Kahn's worthless ***.

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 08:11 PM
This is not something I want to argue to death. I don't remember really posting anything to set this off other than I liked the Wolves roster better than Houston and, in explaining my reasoning, that I thought Bud and Parsons were fairly similar in quality on the teams they now are on. I felt like the Budinger deal was good for both teams but that Houston could have made a better selection with the pick they got.

Nah not trying to heckle you. After this, feel free to not respond. But by saying you'll take the Wolves roster over Houston's is doing a disservice to the position that Houston is in. Harden, Parson and Asik aren't anywhere near their primes in terms of years served. So just off of natural progression we could expect Houston to be a top 4-5 team next year. This isn't even mentioning that fact that Trob could turn his career around and Lin could eventually be at least serviceable as a pg and the monstrous amounts of cap space they have. The Twolves may have a better roster than Houston, but the Rocket's future is shining brighter to me.



There are different number we could use to debate but essentially Budinger has better offensive numbers and Parsons has slightly better defensive numbers. I don't feel that either is that much better to really make a difference in the overall assessment of which team I would rather have.

I actually think Parsons gets overrated by Rocket fans but I still believe he's better than Bud.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:19 PM
Nah not trying to heckle you. After this, feel free to not respond. But by saying you'll take the Wolves roster over Houston's is doing a disservice to the position that Houston is in. Harden, Parson and Asik aren't anywhere near their primes in terms of years served. So just off of natural progression we could expect Houston to be a top 4-5 team next year. This isn't even mentioning that fact that Trob could turn his career around and Lin could eventually be at least serviceable as a pg and the monstrous amounts of cap space they have. The Twolves may have a better roster than Houston, but the Rocket's future is shining brighter to me.




I actually think Parsons gets overrated by Rocket fans but I still believe he's better than Bud.

we don't even know what the hell a healthy Wolves roster would look like, they were taken apart by injuries this year. So annoying

b@llhog24
02-24-2013, 08:22 PM
we don't even know what the hell a healthy Wolves roster would look like, they were taken apart by injuries this year. So annoying

Before the season started, you had them pegged at around 4-6 right? Basically I think Houston could very well accomplish that next year with their current roster. + Cap space, GM and Houston's market. It's a no brainer.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:24 PM
Before the season started, you had them pegged at around 4-6 right? Basically I think Houston could very well accomplish that next year with their current roster. + Cap space, GM and Houston's market. It's a no brainer.

Yeah, I agree. If Rubio can somehow learn to score at an even below average clip, I still think a Love/Rubio/Pek trio is better than Harden/Lin/Asik going forward, though Pek is 27, and not going to get any better. The nice thing is Dwill is starting to show signs of life, so at the very least, he is upping his trade value by the game.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 08:24 PM
When McHale took over, a lot of the Adelman regulars lost their spots.
Agreed, when you get a new coach, past history is irrelevant, its all about the here and the now. It didn't take long to see how much better the team played with Parsons.



Salary certainly is important but is mostly irrelevant as Budinger is still on his rookie deal for the moment.
How so? When breaking down a teams asset pool, having the superior player on a cheaper deal for several years longer is much better than having a guy whos about to become a free agent and will thus command alot of money. Moving forward, Parsons is CLEARLY the better asset. Its not even up for debate. I really hope you can admit at least that much, I know hes a Wolf but even if we agreed they were similar players, its COMPLETELY illogical to ignore the salary structure moving forward. Moving forward, Budinger is set to become a FA within a few months. Nobody would rather have a comparable player for more money.



I don't understand what the argument about defense is as neither is an excellent defender and their defensive ratings are within 2 points of each other while neither has astounding defensive stats otherwise.
Your confusion stems from you thinking I said either of them were excellent when my stance is merely that Parsons is better, and noticeably so.
You would have to have watched the Rockets last year to understand. The reason Budinger lost his starting spot was because of Parsons defensive superiority, it certainly wasn't his offense because Budinger is actually a good offensive player, he just lacks Parsons tools defensively.

And FYI, having a comparable D.RTG on 2 wildly different defensive teams isn't much of a compliment. When both were on the same team, Parsons had the superior DRTG.

Looking at their other metrics, its pretty clear that Parsons is the better defender. Keep in mind, when both played together, Parsons was checking the other teams best while Budinger got the rest, yet despite this fact, Parsons sports the superior individual PPP allowed. Thats pretty glaring to me.

I will admit that despite liking the way Parsons has developed but I was hoping he would become more of a stopper this year.



Potential is in the eye of the beholder. I don't expect either to ascend very much further from where they are but simply to better define their roles and capabilities on their respective teams.

True but check out their athletic specs, who do you find more talented? Parsons is basically a poor man AK47. Who would you compare Chase to?


Here is the comparison of their careers so far:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=budinch01&y1=2013&p2=parsoch01&y2=2013

Per 36, Budinger would seem to be the better player by a hair imo.
Statistically its close, but PER/WS and +/- think more highly of Parsons, you can say its negligible but I wasn't making the case that Parsons is better statistically, just that because both are statistically comparable, its Parsons defense that sets him apart. But yes both are comparable players, Parsons just has the friendlier contract.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 08:27 PM
dude, Parsons beat out Budinger for a starting spot, and makes peanuts compared to what it would have cost to re-sign Budinger (he won't fetch more than $4 million per year, but still). So when you want to argue who is slightly better, all I care about is the money. That being said, Kahn wouldn't understand talent if it landed on his face and did the moonwalk, so I prefer him trading picks for players that are established, good NBA players, even if it means he is eating some cost.

Chronz
02-24-2013, 08:38 PM
You can measure it how you like. Name of the game is putting together a contender.
Too simplistic for my liking . I rather take into account their situations, market and inherited assets, why blindly glance at win-loss tallies?


That core was one and done, and underperformed for all sorts of reasons.
Point remains they had 2 of the most popular players in the league, a competitive team and the fans still didn't show. So its a pretty hollow complaint. I mean, the Clippers prolly outsold the Rockets and we were a **** team, it doesn't mean our GM was better at drawing fans lol. We just live in LA


Hopefully that changes, and Morey was tasked to rebuild without tanking, something difficult to do, but I still don't place him amongst the best of the best GM's, like I constantly read about him.
Cmon bro, Mitch Kupcake? RLY?

Chronz
02-24-2013, 08:52 PM
.

Spot on post

Chronz
02-24-2013, 08:56 PM
If I see another Morey versus Kahn post, I am going to puke. I would give my left kidney to have Morey replace Kahn's worthless ***.

Believe me, NOBODY is arguing Morey vs Kahn.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 09:25 PM
Too simplistic for my liking . I rather take into account their situations, market and inherited assets, why blindly glance at win-loss tallies?


Point remains they had 2 of the most popular players in the league, a competitive team and the fans still didn't show. So its a pretty hollow complaint. I mean, the Clippers prolly outsold the Rockets and we were a **** team, it doesn't mean our GM was better at drawing fans lol. We just live in LA


Cmon bro, Mitch Kupcake? RLY?

blindly? Cmon bro, give me a little credit.

Popularity doesn't equal butts in the seat a lot of times. Houston's martketing program is crap, but the flipping of players (assets) did nothing to help the situation.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 09:25 PM
Believe me, NOBODY is arguing Morey vs Kahn.

left kidney Chronz...

Chronz
02-24-2013, 10:18 PM
Too simplistic for my liking . I rather take into account their situations, market and inherited assets, why blindly glance at win-loss tallies?


Point remains they had 2 of the most popular players in the league, a competitive team and the fans still didn't show. So its a pretty hollow complaint. I mean, the Clippers prolly outsold the Rockets and we were a **** team, it doesn't mean our GM was better at drawing fans lol. We just live in LA


Cmon bro, Mitch Kupcake? RLY?

blindly? Cmon bro, give me a little credit.

Popularity doesn't equal butts in the seat a lot of times. Houston's martketing program is crap, but the flipping of players (assets) did nothing to help the situation.
Just because I respect you doesn't mean I'm going to trust your judgement on everything we debate.
I can only go by what you said here, and if your methodology has Kupcek getting credit for 5 titles then its a judgement worth questioning.

We are just going to have to disagree on the reasons for their attendance and how lil that falls on Morey.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 10:22 PM
Just because I respect you doesn't mean I'm going to trust your judgement on everything we debate.
I can only go by what you said here, and if your methodology has Kupcek getting credit for 5 titles then its a judgement worth questioning.

We are just going to have to disagree on the reasons for their attendance and how lil that falls on Morey.

meh, thats fair. And Kup is below other GM's for me. I think Buford stands alone, and then we have a fair shake of 4-5 other guys I might put ahead of Morey, at the very least, we need to give some sort of credit to a GM that has won 5 chips.

astrosmaniac
02-24-2013, 10:35 PM
meh, thats fair. And Kup is below other GM's for me. I think Buford stands alone, and then we have a fair shake of 4-5 other guys I might put ahead of Morey, at the very least, we need to give some sort of credit to a GM that has won 5 chips.

i definitely agree with that

topdog
02-24-2013, 10:42 PM
How so? When breaking down a teams asset pool, having the superior player on a cheaper deal for several years longer is much better than having a guy whos about to become a free agent and will thus command alot of money. Moving forward, Parsons is CLEARLY the better asset. Its not even up for debate. I really hope you can admit at least that much, I know hes a Wolf but even if we agreed they were similar players, its COMPLETELY illogical to ignore the salary structure moving forward. Moving forward, Budinger is set to become a FA within a few months. Nobody would rather have a comparable player for more money.

I was responding simply on a talent basis, but I will admit that salary structure is a part of chosing which roster you would rather have. That said, I still like the Wolves roster better and it's not just about individual one-to-one comparisons (such as when I matched up Jones and Shved who simply are both rookies).


Your confusion stems from you thinking I said either of them were excellent when my stance is merely that Parsons is better, and noticeably so.
You would have to have watched the Rockets last year to understand. The reason Budinger lost his starting spot was because of Parsons defensive superiority, it certainly wasn't his offense because Budinger is actually a good offensive player, he just lacks Parsons tools defensively.

I have not seen enough Rockets games to comment accurately on Parsons defense in relation to Budinger but his extra length would seem to be a tool that Budinger doesn't have as far as potential. So, I will say fair enough and agree so long as we are not calling Parsons an overly good defender.


And FYI, having a comparable D.RTG on 2 wildly different defensive teams isn't much of a compliment. When both were on the same team, Parsons had the superior DRTG.

Laziness/disinterest on my part in not putting their ratings into context, but not something I really felt was going to be a big debate in this thread as I think Morey's trading of Bud was a good move.


Statistically its close, but PER/WS and +/- think more highly of Parsons, you can say its negligible but I wasn't making the case that Parsons is better statistically, just that because both are statistically comparable, its Parsons defense that sets him apart. But yes both are comparable players, Parsons just has the friendlier contract.

Which my point was not based on contracts but rather talent and overall roster composition/salary which has the potential to shift drastically depending upon what the franchises do this summer.

Verbal Christ
02-24-2013, 10:54 PM
budinger plays no defense. parsons does. oh and water is wet.

Hawkeye15
02-24-2013, 10:56 PM
budinger plays no defense. parsons does. oh and water is wet.

Budinger is average due to his length and jumping ability to close, Parsons isn't a shut down defender like some make him out to be. Fact is, Parsons gets paid Budinger money for another couple of years while Budinger is going to need an extension, his value for skillset is flat out better. That is the main point.

topdog
02-24-2013, 11:24 PM
Ive never heard anyone call playing at a high pace with high efficiency "inflation", at least not since the rise of advanced statistics. Im not seeing what makes the numbers inflated, can you elaborate, any substantial research that suggest this correlation you speak of because from what Ive seen its actually the opposite. Sounds like more baseless accusations under the guise of objective evidence.

I would point to the Rockets having a poor conference record of 13-20 as evidence of their style of play being a bit gimmicky and relying on the other team buying into playing up tempo with little defense. Fast break buckets should lead to high FG% and from my small sample of watching the Rockets this year it looks like they contest and release a lot rather than playing defensive possessions all the way and securing the ball. Should they make the playoffs, I would not be surprised at all to see them struggle against teams who force them into the halfcourt.


I mentioned that deal because its an example of Morey flipping an easily replaced player because his contract is about to run out. Those are the kind of moves that are best made rather than committing to a non-essential piece, so when you say hes constantly shuffling, its with intelligence rather than ignorance. I mean keeping Budinger instead of getting more picks to play with would have been a true mistake so its not a bad idea to move on.

There is a matter of balance at play here. It's one thing to replace with younger and cheaper and it's another to draft for trade. He's lauded as a great drafter, but there is barely anyone on the roster he's found worth sticking with and developing. I don't see how he can have it both ways where he's a great drafter and is smart for turning over nearly the entire roster each year.


On the basis that he consistently finds quality players late in the draft. Check out the historical returns from players taken at the positions hes picked vs the production of his actual draft choices.

I just read this piece on ESPN regarding Morey's recent 2nd round pick acquisition.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130222/nba-trade-deadline-winners-losers


The guy has a proven track record for spotting diamonds in the rough. And what exactly would they have to mention other than Morey's elite at it. The comparison to Kahn is laughable, he had EARLY picks, drafted several PG's in succession, wound up starting the worst of them and trading the best one. In large part due to his inability to comprehend analytics. Whereas Morey had already had great success with those type of players, lest we forget how productive Landry was for them. I mean a +20PER from a rookie in the 2nd round, how often does that happen?

My issue is the mid-firsts that he should be held accountable for just like lottery GMs get chastised for their high picks not turning out (which seems to be a fairly high rate these days). That doesn't mean that I don't think Morey should get some credit for making the picks that other GMs fail to, but it doesn't save the fact that his first round picks are uninspiring.


I think OKC will regret it in the long run. You say "6 years in" as if his goals were the same every year. When he first got here he had Yao and Tmac and a team that COMPLETELY fell apart whenever T-Mac didn't play. Despite having 2 unstable stars and monstrous contracts attached to them, limiting his flexibility, despite late picks, he still provided the championship caliber support for them. Sadly those 2 stars were decrepit and it was all too late. If he had come to Houston sooner it would have been a different story.

I will say that Houston probably could have had Gay as its star had Morey gotten the job a year earlier, but passing on players like Batum and Jordan (was lottery talent) was short-sighted at best. The Ariza contract was a mistake. Anyway, there was still value in those stars that he could have and did in part cash in on only he wasn't able to turn the variety of assets he gained into a singular star or high pick which makes me wonder what his strategy was then - did he think Martin and Hill were answers?


And I dont know how you dont see the plan when its so clearly evident. Having a YOUNGER team that is playing BETTER while ALSO clearing A TON (not "abit") of CAP space represents a huge difference than having an older team with no Harden locked up.

Whether Houston is playing better or the West simply has opened up at the bottom is still a question to me. No longer are Dallas and Lakers top 5 teams or even playoff level teams and those clubs that have moved up in the standings to take their place are simply decent. The record may be better for Houston but is that internal growth or external weakening? Cap space is simply hope and fear until something is made of it.


Its always better to be lucky than smart, but Im not going to bank on luck solving problems. Im not going to hire an idiot and hope he can get lucky when I can hire a genius and hope to get lucky. I dont see the point about Kahn here, he inherited Love/Jefferson, imagine if you had a GM who could actually find a competent wing. Morey would have turned Minnesota around by year 2. I mean, your talking about a guy who had to trade his first rounder to get a player (on his final year)that Morey was able to replace with a 2nd rounder.

I'm saying that it's more-or-less dumb luck that McHale/Kahn have Love on the team and it took just one good draft versus all the trades Morey had to make to get the assets for Harden. Morey is going to need a bit of luck or a whole bunch more assets if he's going to get another star imo.


Yup, should be an interesting off-season, Houston has alot going for it, its just a matter of whos going to be willing to leave money off the table to reup elsewhere. And Houston has so much cap space that they could offer more in terms of absorbing salaries to help potential trade partners.

Maybe it's my experience as a Wolves fan and the disappointment I felt each year with KG around but I am wary of cap space not necessarily leading to positive results.



Does Tmac not count because he forced his way to Houston rather than sign outright?

I don't see it as the same thing. He wanted out of Orlando, not necessarily to Houston. Stars have taken to having much shorter lists these days.


Can you give me examples of recent history supporting any star player signing with another team because its sounds ridiculously narrow, I mean before LeBron joined Miami, you saw no evidence of Miami reeling in star players "recently". Thats because they never had CAP space. What you did see was several players try to get to Miami but unable to do so for a variety of reasons. What matters is that there was legit interest. Odom almost left a contending LA team to play in South Beach for less money. So when I hear players talk fondly about certain markets yet end up going elsewhere, I can only conclude that those cities were at least in contention for their services. Houston obviously isn't LA/NY but its pretty high up there so they have reason to be optimistic, especially considering their history/tradition. They have too much history of players trying to get to Houston, Pippen, Chuck, Tmac.

As for which players actually signed, Stromile Swift settled on the MLE just to play with Tmac-Yao when he could have easily gotten more. Bonzi Wells turned down like 8M and wound up signing in Houston for the min. Tho that was more of him overestimating his value and signing with the desired locale.

There has to be the right situation in order to sign someone. You cant sign someone if you dont have the cap space and you cant convince players to take less if you dont offer them the chance at winning.

Houston hasn't been in this situation in a LONG time, where they will have cap space AND a potential superstar in Harden. IIRC, Dwight spoke fondly about Houston's situation, but so did Chris Bosh before he joined Miami. What matters is that Houston is in the conversation.

I mean at the least we can both agree that Houston has much more incentive to play the free agent market than teams like Milwaukee/Minnesota and you guys almost landed Batum so why cant Houston aim alil higher?

Bosh is from Texas so I find his "interest" merely to be media lip service and Dwight warned Houston not to trade for him because he would leave. I just don't see any big free agents this year that seem to be interested in Houston outside of maybe Josh Smith who will not be worth his contract. As far as trades, I don't feel like Houston has the pieces unless someone is just absolutely enamored with Thomas Robinson.

WhiteSoxGod
02-27-2013, 01:00 AM
I would point to the Rockets having a poor conference record of 13-20 as evidence of their style of play being a bit gimmicky and relying on the other team buying into playing up tempo with little defense. Fast break buckets should lead to high FG% and from my small sample of watching the Rockets this year it looks like they contest and release a lot rather than playing defensive possessions all the way and securing the ball. Should they make the playoffs, I would not be surprised at all to see them struggle against teams who force them into the halfcourt.



There is a matter of balance at play here. It's one thing to replace with younger and cheaper and it's another to draft for trade. He's lauded as a great drafter, but there is barely anyone on the roster he's found worth sticking with and developing. I don't see how he can have it both ways where he's a great drafter and is smart for turning over nearly the entire roster each year.



My issue is the mid-firsts that he should be held accountable for just like lottery GMs get chastised for their high picks not turning out (which seems to be a fairly high rate these days). That doesn't mean that I don't think Morey should get some credit for making the picks that other GMs fail to, but it doesn't save the fact that his first round picks are uninspiring.



I will say that Houston probably could have had Gay as its star had Morey gotten the job a year earlier, but passing on players like Batum and Jordan (was lottery talent) was short-sighted at best. The Ariza contract was a mistake. Anyway, there was still value in those stars that he could have and did in part cash in on only he wasn't able to turn the variety of assets he gained into a singular star or high pick which makes me wonder what his strategy was then - did he think Martin and Hill were answers?



Whether Houston is playing better or the West simply has opened up at the bottom is still a question to me. No longer are Dallas and Lakers top 5 teams or even playoff level teams and those clubs that have moved up in the standings to take their place are simply decent. The record may be better for Houston but is that internal growth or external weakening? Cap space is simply hope and fear until something is made of it.



I'm saying that it's more-or-less dumb luck that McHale/Kahn have Love on the team and it took just one good draft versus all the trades Morey had to make to get the assets for Harden. Morey is going to need a bit of luck or a whole bunch more assets if he's going to get another star imo.



Maybe it's my experience as a Wolves fan and the disappointment I felt each year with KG around but I am wary of cap space not necessarily leading to positive results.


I don't see it as the same thing. He wanted out of Orlando, not necessarily to Houston. Stars have taken to having much shorter lists these days.



Bosh is from Texas so I find his "interest" merely to be media lip service and Dwight warned Houston not to trade for him because he would leave. I just don't see any big free agents this year that seem to be interested in Houston outside of maybe Josh Smith who will not be worth his contract. As far as trades, I don't feel like Houston has the pieces unless someone is just absolutely enamored with Thomas Robinson.

This is asinine, asi-ten, asi-eleven.....asi-12. LOL For real though you have to be kidding right? The Rockets will have enough money under the cap to sign a max plus pieces. And if that max is Dwight Howard and we can trade Asik, the Rockets could sign 2 MAX Deals meaning the Rockets could have 3 max players.

The Rockets could add a max and a 11-14 mil avg player and still load other pieces. They could sign Howard and Josh Smith or Howard and Paul Millsap. The Rockets would look deadly then with Hardin, Lin, Parsons, Howard and Millsap/Josh Smith.

Morey is an above average GM for sure if you don't think so you must be a Timberwolves fan.

topdog
02-27-2013, 01:21 AM
This is asinine, asi-ten, asi-eleven.....asi-12. LOL For real though you have to be kidding right? The Rockets will have enough money under the cap to sign a max plus pieces. And if that max is Dwight Howard and we can trade Asik, the Rockets could sign 2 MAX Deals meaning the Rockets could have 3 max players.

The Rockets could add a max and a 11-14 mil avg player and still load other pieces. They could sign Howard and Josh Smith or Howard and Paul Millsap. The Rockets would look deadly then with Hardin, Lin, Parsons, Howard and Millsap/Josh Smith.

Morey is an above average GM for sure if you don't think so you must be a Timberwolves fan.

Clever... is it the 1990s all over again? :eyebrow:

I don't know what you add to this debate besides another post in the thread but the part where you actually talked basketball I'll address: 1. I am doubtful about who Houston can attract with their cap space. Based on recent history and the media coverage of Howard's desires over the last couple of years, his impending free agency does not seem to point to ending in Houston. 2. The Rockets "could" do a lot of things. You're coulds rely on Howard signing and I honestly don't know that it's wise to pay what Milsap and Smith may be offered.

The team I am a fan of is irrelevant. This isn't about the Wolves or Kahn (we've had those threads). This is about Daryl Morey and the Rockets near-term future. It is a basketball discussion which you should not take personally.

LeperMessiah
02-27-2013, 01:29 AM
He certainly kept the team alive after losing 2 superstars to injuries (Tracy and Yao), most teams would just roll over for a while.

valade16
02-27-2013, 10:48 AM
He certainly kept the team alive after losing 2 superstars to injuries (Tracy and Yao), most teams would just roll over for a while.

Like missing the playoffs 3 straight years? People want to give him credit for keeping the team competitive while rebuilding but how competitive were they in reality? If we are grading him on how competitive his teams were durin that period he gets a low grade.

astrosmaniac
02-27-2013, 10:58 AM
Like missing the playoffs 3 straight years? People want to give him credit for keeping the team competitive while rebuilding but how competitive were they in reality? If we are grading him on how competitive his teams were durin that period he gets a low grade.

the owner wouldn't let him gut the roster and rebuild. When your best player is kevin martin or luis scola, it's kinda hard to make the playoffs. The fact that they were only a game or two away is impressive in and of itself

SteveNash
02-27-2013, 11:09 AM
The ability of Morey to transform this 34-32 Rocket team into a 31-27 team this year has been just remarkable.

The ability of Houston to remain mediocre should earn Morey executive of the year.

Chronz
02-27-2013, 12:44 PM
I would point to the Rockets having a poor conference record of 13-20 as evidence of their style of play being a bit gimmicky and relying on the other team buying into playing up tempo with little defense. Fast break buckets should lead to high FG% and from my small sample of watching the Rockets this year it looks like they contest and release a lot rather than playing defensive possessions all the way and securing the ball. Should they make the playoffs, I would not be surprised at all to see them struggle against teams who force them into the halfcourt.
Yea but you would be pointing to a barometer that seems very similar to the "matchup barometer" people use to project success for teams like Miami in 2011. Their record vs the Elite teams was not very pretty, yet they went to the Finals. While their loss in the Finals was unexpected, them coming within 2 games of a championship shouldn't exactly be unexpected despite their random struggles during the RS.
Even before that Finals, some APBR guy looked back on all sorts of these matchup barometers (record against .500 teams, 50 win teams, EAST/WEST etc..) and found alot of random noise, whereas when looking at the complete efficiency of a team yielded superior projections to even having HCA. So no offense but I dont buy your theory of inflation, the relationship between pace and efficiency has been studied much more in depth without the kind of certainty you seem to have.

As for Houstons offense, they are actually an elite team in PnR sets, their only weakness in the halfcourt comes from a complete lack of a post game but they move the ball well and when they dont turn it over, they actually defend decently. They are an ascending team thats about to get a load of cap space, its all part of the plan.

I guess Im struggling to understand why you think being a fast break team means your offense is inflated or gimmicky any more than a slow plodding teams offense is deflated and gimmicky, we have stats to account for pace, so what makes it inflated instead of just being different? Arent teams are allowed to play whatever style they feel suits their personnel? Not sure what kind of argument your trying to make but discrediting any Rocket player for dominating doesn't add up to me. Their defensive woes are an issue, but its more personnel based than system based. When Asik is in the game, they are actually a pretty decent squad defensively, but he is their lone anchor on a small/finesse team. Morey will patch that up next year.




There is a matter of balance at play here. It's one thing to replace with younger and cheaper and it's another to draft for trade. He's lauded as a great drafter, but there is barely anyone on the roster he's found worth sticking with and developing. I don't see how he can have it both ways where he's a great drafter and is smart for turning over nearly the entire roster each year.
Why not? How are the 2 mutually exclusive? How Morey continues to stay competitive while rebuilding is precisely by being good at both. Your complaints of not keeping them would have actually hurt the teams long term outlook.
For example, look at Aaron Brooks, by no means a star but he produced solid results for such a late pick. And when Aaron Brooks (wrongfully) won the MIP, his value was at an All-Time high and he was an upcoming FA. So what did Morey do? He traded for a guy whos talent was superior but whos value was at an All-Time low. The move gave the Rockets another year of superior PG play without tying up their cap situation while getting another first rounder in the process.

So if your criticism is that he doesn't keep players even when situations like this arise, then much like many of your argument, I dont see the point.




My issue is the mid-firsts that he should be held accountable for just like lottery GMs get chastised for their high picks not turning out (which seems to be a fairly high rate these days). That doesn't mean that I don't think Morey should get some credit for making the picks that other GMs fail to, but it doesn't save the fact that his first round picks are uninspiring.
Thats because outside the immediate lottery, getting impact players at any other point is pretty impressive. When looking at the value hes gotten over the years, its clear hes a great drafter.
You can critique whatever specific area you wish, but you cannot ignore the entirety of its scope. You seem to have a tendency of highlighting the minuscule and ignoring the totality (IMO).



I will say that Houston probably could have had Gay as its star had Morey gotten the job a year earlier
Again, more evidence of you being misinformed. It was Morey's decision to trade Gay for Battier and it was the right move at the time.


but passing on players like Batum and Jordan (was lottery talent) was short-sighted at best.
Jordan? And every GM has players they passed on, its about the value they've gotten on their investments over the long haul.


The Ariza contract was a mistake.
A productive 2-way swing who was entering his theoretical "prime" and came at a mere MLE value was a solid risk. If its a mistake it was only in hindsight and even then it still got them Courtney Lee so thats a pretty minor complaint but I guess when your as good as Morey these are the kind of "mistakes" that come up, sound investments that end before they can turn bad.



Anyway, there was still value in those stars that he could have and did in part cash in on only he wasn't able to turn the variety of assets he gained into a singular star or high pick which makes me wonder what his strategy was then - did he think Martin and Hill were answers?
You lost me with this piece, the plan was the same from the moment Yao-Tmac were done. The reason he couldn't trade for these unnamed stars you reference was because he couldn't force teams to accept a trade and even when he did manufacture some pretty big trades, the Owner of the league nixed it.



Whether Houston is playing better or the West simply has opened up at the bottom is still a question to me. No longer are Dallas and Lakers top 5 teams or even playoff level teams and those clubs that have moved up in the standings to take their place are simply decent. The record may be better for Houston but is that internal growth or external weakening? Cap space is simply hope and fear until something is made of it.
Check their efficiency differentials and SOS, they are CLEARLY playing better than last year. CAP space is the means by which their "luck" can be achieved, without CAP space and without Harden locked into a clearly ascending team, the odds of them landing someone worthwhile are hindered severely.



I'm saying that it's more-or-less dumb luck that McHale/Kahn have Love on the team and it took just one good draft versus all the trades Morey had to make to get the assets for Harden. Morey is going to need a bit of luck or a whole bunch more assets if he's going to get another star imo.

I dont disagree, never have. Luck plays a role in every day life as well, my point has always been that Im not going to rely on luck rather than expertise. Its better to be lucky AND smart is my point. And if Morey gets lucky this off-season, it will be because he opened up the CAP while finding a way to lock himself into an ascending core as opposed to Kahn simply accepting a job offer and inheriting a star that he has miserably failed and will likely lose as a result.



Maybe it's my experience as a Wolves fan and the disappointment I felt each year with KG around but I am wary of cap space not necessarily leading to positive results.
Odd. I figured with KG hoarding your teams cap space all those years it would be the opposite. I mean, the 1 year you guys had some success was the 1 year KG did what Duncan did for his entire career, which is to resign on the cheap and give his team the flexibility to keep the talent coming. Minnesota was so strapped that they actually had to make illegal deals to sign talent. In the long run, their inability to be flexible with payroll, cost them multiple picks and potential free agents.



I don't see it as the same thing. He wanted out of Orlando, not necessarily to Houston. Stars have taken to having much shorter lists these days.
Hate to keep saying this but your terribly misinformed. Tmac used the leverage of an OPT-OUT clause to ensure he chose his destination. He actually worked with Orlando to choose his next destination, I remember the 4 final choices vividly. Indiana (they offered Artest+change), Phoenix (Marion+Pick) and Houston + San Antonio. He said he chose Houston because they had Yao (much like Dwight/star may choose Houston because of Harden) and because he didn't want it too easy (which with Indy/SAS both being 60 win teams eliminated them). Houston obviously agreed but theres a reason why Tmac extended his contract upon being traded. No team would trade for Tmac unless he agreed to an extension, both Tmac and Wiesbrood knew this.



Bosh is from Texas so I find his "interest" merely to be media lip service and Dwight warned Houston not to trade for him because he would leave. I just don't see any big free agents this year that seem to be interested in Houston outside of maybe Josh Smith who will not be worth his contract. As far as trades, I don't feel like Houston has the pieces unless someone is just absolutely enamored with Thomas Robinson.

Good point on Bosh tho it should be noted lots of players make Houston their home. As for Dwight, he said that when it looked like they were tanking, before they had Harden and before he saw this teams ascension. He has softened his stance since then

Chronz
02-27-2013, 12:53 PM
Like missing the playoffs 3 straight years? People want to give him credit for keeping the team competitive while rebuilding but how competitive were they in reality? If we are grading him on how competitive his teams were durin that period he gets a low grade.

Very competitive considering their situation.

Chronz
02-27-2013, 12:55 PM
The ability of Morey to transform this 34-32 Rocket team into a 31-27 team this year has been just remarkable.

The ability of Houston to remain mediocre should earn Morey executive of the year.
Check the more important team barometers, and try not to ignore the position hes gotten Houston in.

Having a team thats improved from the year before while having an ascending core and loads of CAP is much better than being older, worse and less flexible.

MaloDaw9
02-27-2013, 01:13 PM
Why Daryl Morey love? Did he cure cancer?

ohhhhhhh i get it..James Harden became a available and Morey was in the right place at the right time.

what a saint.

Chronz
02-27-2013, 01:51 PM
Why Daryl Morey love? Did he cure cancer?

ohhhhhhh i get it..James Harden became a available and Morey was in the right place at the right time.

what a saint.
Agreed, the Harden move seems to be the most lauded but its the least impressive analytically. This isnt to say he didn't do a good job positioning himself to get lucky but these arent the kind of moves that should distinguish a GM's intelligence. Its the absence of appalling moves and plethora of logical ones

ChiSox219
02-27-2013, 04:19 PM
The Rockets can carry over their cap space to next season if they need to (or want to get in on the Lebron chase) while having Harden, Asik, Parsons, Robinson, and Lin under contract. That group might develop into a starting five capable of title contention and while those pieces develop the Rockets have a lot of flexibility to bring in support for Harden.

Hawkeye15
02-27-2013, 04:23 PM
The Rockets can carry over their cap space to next season if they need to (or want to get in on the Lebron chase) while having Harden, Asik, Parsons, Robinson, and Lin under contract. That group might develop into a starting five capable of title contention and while those pieces develop the Rockets have a lot of flexibility to bring in support for Harden.

that is honestly something I am wondering. Outside Howard, and Paul, there is nobody to throw max money at, so does Houston even become involved in chasing Jefferson, Milisap, Smith, etc?

ChiSox219
02-27-2013, 04:35 PM
that is honestly something I am wondering. Outside Howard, and Paul, there is nobody to throw max money at, so does Houston even become involved in chasing Jefferson, Milisap, Smith, etc?

Throwing long term money at any of those guys is risky. Josh Smith is the one of those three I think fits best with Houston but they could end up signing a couple of lesser guys to one year deals like Dallas did last year. Rockets also have Motiejunas and Terrence Jones as high upside low salary PFs that could provide minutes next year or be used as trade chips with Lin or Asik if Morey were to do something crazy like go after CP3 and Dwight.

Hawkeye15
02-27-2013, 04:39 PM
Throwing long term money at any of those guys is risky. Josh Smith is the one of those three I think fits best with Houston but they could end up signing a couple of lesser guys to one year deals like Dallas did last year. Rockets also have Motiejunas and Terrence Jones as high upside low salary PFs that could provide minutes next year or be used as trade chips with Lin or Asik if Morey were to do something crazy like go after CP3 and Dwight.

I am almost certain CP3 is staying, and the longer this season goes, I think Dwight may stay too. They will be the ones that start the dominoes in FA however, so we will wait until this summer I suppose.

topdog
02-27-2013, 06:07 PM
I guess Im struggling to understand why you think being a fast break team means your offense is inflated or gimmicky any more than a slow plodding teams offense is deflated and gimmicky, we have stats to account for pace, so what makes it inflated instead of just being different? Arent teams are allowed to play whatever style they feel suits their personnel? Not sure what kind of argument your trying to make but discrediting any Rocket player for dominating doesn't add up to me. Their defensive woes are an issue, but its more personnel based than system based. When Asik is in the game, they are actually a pretty decent squad defensively, but he is their lone anchor on a small/finesse team. Morey will patch that up next year.

Only 9 teams in the league shoot 45.9% or better on the season yet Houston allows their opponent 45.9% shooting per game. Yes, Houston shoots slightly better than that and yes they have a point differential of +2.8, but those percentages nonetheless show a distinct lack of defense. Why should I call this "inflation" when the Rockets play faster? I should deem it as such because the focus in evaluating players by stats (including advanced stats) tends to be on offense and defense generally is minimalized. As a result, the Rockets fast pace and exchange of buckets hypes up players like Chandler Parsons as better players than they are for their volume output. Meanwhile, stats like PER (which are below average) get written off as proven imperfect and therefore completely useless.


Why not? How are the 2 mutually exclusive? How Morey continues to stay competitive while rebuilding is precisely by being good at both. Your complaints of not keeping them would have actually hurt the teams long term outlook.
For example, look at Aaron Brooks, by no means a star but he produced solid results for such a late pick. And when Aaron Brooks (wrongfully) won the MIP, his value was at an All-Time high and he was an upcoming FA. So what did Morey do? He traded for a guy whos talent was superior but whos value was at an All-Time low. The move gave the Rockets another year of superior PG play without tying up their cap situation while getting another first rounder in the process.

So if your criticism is that he doesn't keep players even when situations like this arise, then much like many of your argument, I dont see the point.

Here I feel like you're cherry-picking. Yes, Morey makes some good deals involving players who have become overrated in the Houston system but is that a matter of drafting hidden gems (who then don't pan out elsewhere) or is it a matter of the Rocket's style of play, good coaching and lack of star power that inflates the stats and value of a guy like Brooks? The lack of any one player sticking around past about seasons with the team and the relative obscurity and struggles of these players once they are traded out of Houston make me question how good these picks really are. We already know that Morey tends to "win" trades but I cannot say that he is a good drafter - just a good salesman.


Thats because outside the immediate lottery, getting impact players at any other point is pretty impressive. When looking at the value hes gotten over the years, its clear hes a great drafter.
You can critique whatever specific area you wish, but you cannot ignore the entirety of its scope. You seem to have a tendency of highlighting the minuscule and ignoring the totality (IMO).

Again, no one drafted by Houston sticks around and no one who leaves Houston ever seems to play at the same level.


Again, more evidence of you being misinformed. It was Morey's decision to trade Gay for Battier and it was the right move at the time.

If that is the case (and I have no problem admitting that I am not so familiar with the other 29 franchises as to know when a listed GM is not making the pick), then it is foolish and Morey fans' complaints about him never having a star to draft should be disregarded. As nice of a player as Battier is and was, he was not worth a top 10 pick in that draft most especially when the Hawks and Wolves helped to gift wrap Rudy Gay for the Rockets. That's called selling out on your future.


Jordan? And every GM has players they passed on, its about the value they've gotten on their investments over the long haul.

So, Harden. Morey's passed up Gay, Bledsoe, Batum, Jordan, Pekovic,ect; drafted assets and has ended up with Harden. Oh, and cap space. Morey's high number of deals make it seem like he's done a lot and he's mostly "won" those trades by getting slightly better players, but at the end of the day he really only has gotten Harden.


A productive 2-way swing who was entering his theoretical "prime" and came at a mere MLE value was a solid risk. If its a mistake it was only in hindsight and even then it still got them Courtney Lee so thats a pretty minor complaint but I guess when your as good as Morey these are the kind of "mistakes" that come up, sound investments that end before they can turn bad.

It was classic overvaluation of a nice Finals performance. He moved the contract - okay. That doesn't mean it wasn't a poor choice in the first place nor that Lee ended up being anything more than a means to get a future 2nd round pick in the long haul. Let's not forget that it was a waste of the injury exception and that they let Ron Artest walk who had cost the team a first round pick in '09 and Donte Greene - the guy Morey got back for Batum.


You lost me with this piece, the plan was the same from the moment Yao-Tmac were done. The reason he couldn't trade for these unnamed stars you reference was because he couldn't force teams to accept a trade and even when he did manufacture some pretty big trades, the Owner of the league nixed it.

When was Yao really done? If I remember correctly, Morey had a chance to trade him when his downfall first started (his 2nd? fracture) but waited hoping and praying that the over-sized injury machine and McGrady could actually get healthy and make it to the 2nd round again.


Check their efficiency differentials and SOS, they are CLEARLY playing better than last year. CAP space is the means by which their "luck" can be achieved, without CAP space and without Harden locked into a clearly ascending team, the odds of them landing someone worthwhile are hindered severely.

They should play better than last year now that they have had a year under McHale and personnel more to his liking. That doesn't lead me to believe that they really got that much better than any other team ahead of them, but rather that other teams are on the decline and that Harden is a better closer than Martin after the implementation of the swing-through rule.


I dont disagree, never have. Luck plays a role in every day life as well, my point has always been that Im not going to rely on luck rather than expertise. Its better to be lucky AND smart is my point. And if Morey gets lucky this off-season, it will be because he opened up the CAP while finding a way to lock himself into an ascending core as opposed to Kahn simply accepting a job offer and inheriting a star that he has miserably failed and will likely lose as a result.

I won't deny this. I will simply say that one must realize their limitations and not try to create solutions which are not there. Morey seems at times to be overly active.


Odd. I figured with KG hoarding your teams cap space all those years it would be the opposite. I mean, the 1 year you guys had some success was the 1 year KG did what Duncan did for his entire career, which is to resign on the cheap and give his team the flexibility to keep the talent coming. Minnesota was so strapped that they actually had to make illegal deals to sign talent. In the long run, their inability to be flexible with payroll, cost them multiple picks and potential free agents.

Don't get me started on KG taking up all of our cap :mad: ...and starting a lockout. There were plenty of years though even with something like the mid-level or one of the $8M contracts expiring where there were nice free agents available for that price (and who sometimes signed for less) that said things along the lines of: "I'd love to play with KG but isn't it like really cold in Minnesota?" Houston may be quite a bit warmer, but still I can see players saying: "Yeah, I'd like to play with Harden but isn't Dallas a better market?" :shrug:



Hate to keep saying this but your terribly misinformed. Tmac used the leverage of an OPT-OUT clause to ensure he chose his destination. He actually worked with Orlando to choose his next destination, I remember the 4 final choices vividly. Indiana (they offered Artest+change), Phoenix (Marion+Pick) and Houston + San Antonio. He said he chose Houston because they had Yao (much like Dwight/star may choose Houston because of Harden) and because he didn't want it too easy (which with Indy/SAS both being 60 win teams eliminated them). Houston obviously agreed but theres a reason why Tmac extended his contract upon being traded. No team would trade for Tmac unless he agreed to an extension, both Tmac and Wiesbrood knew this.

I remember T-Mac giving the ultimatum of "draft Okafor or trade me." Beyond that, yes he may have chosen Houston (which I didn't remember) but I still would discount the fact that it wasn't the open field of free agency and he may have been affected by the Shaq legacy and not wanting to screw over Orlando, but I will concede that he did choose Houston at the end of the day.


Good point on Bosh tho it should be noted lots of players make Houston their home. As for Dwight, he said that when it looked like they were tanking, before they had Harden and before he saw this teams ascension. He has softened his stance since then

What D12 is thinking I don't know if anybody knows. He seems to want to be a star though and to have as much media attention as possible. If LA can make it to the playoffs, I think his chances of staying go way up (if he hasn't decided to stay already).

LeperMessiah
02-27-2013, 06:15 PM
Like missing the playoffs 3 straight years? People want to give him credit for keeping the team competitive while rebuilding but how competitive were they in reality? If we are grading him on how competitive his teams were durin that period he gets a low grade.

They had a contending team.