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jmj365
02-21-2013, 07:01 PM
The new collective bargaining agreement has been a great success for the owners. Not only did they get a bigger slice of the pie. They also have been forced to save themselves from themselves, with an extremely punitive tax system. Teams are less willing to go well over the salary cap for star players, let alone second tier players. There were no blockbusters today at the trade deadline. Teams are unwilling to part with young talent for guys like Josh Smith or Paul Milsap(unless your the Kings :facepalm:). Ultimately, with no blockbusters we still only have five teams who can possibly win the title. The Heat, Clippers, Thunder, Spurs and Pacers are rejoicing that the comp is standing pat. And the owners are seriously lining their pockets while the league is becoming very top heavy.

kobe4thewinbang
02-21-2013, 07:10 PM
Yeah, dumb move by the Kings. I hope Crawford is good for the Celtics. I figured Orlando would get more for Redick than Udrih, but I don't know much about Harris or Lamb. Guess they'll finally get rid of Nelson in the off-season? I wish the Lakers would've made a move. Because they didn't, that means more drama until the summer.

DR_1
02-21-2013, 07:13 PM
The new collective bargaining agreement has been a great success for the owners. Not only did they get a bigger slice of the pie. They also have been forced to save themselves from themselves, with an extremely punitive tax system. Teams are less willing to go well over the salary cap for star players, let alone second tier players. There were no blockbusters today at the trade deadline. Teams are unwilling to part with young talent for guys like Josh Smith or Paul Milsap(unless your the Kings :facepalm:). Ultimately, with no blockbusters we still only have five teams who can possibly win the title. The Heat, Clippers, Thunder, Spurs and Pacers are rejoicing that the comp is standing pat. And the owners are seriously lining their pockets while the league is becoming very top heavy.

You forgot the Bulls (assuming all teams are healthy)

bholly
02-21-2013, 07:17 PM
So you're unhappy that a star like Smith stayed on his team instead of some capped-out team being willing to go further over the cap to trade for him, but you're also upset that only 5 teams can win the title? Do you see why that doesn't really make sense?

sep11ie
02-21-2013, 07:20 PM
Oh, a trade deadline thread!!! SWEET!

jmj365
02-21-2013, 08:17 PM
So you're unhappy that a star like Smith stayed on his team instead of some capped-out team being willing to go further over the cap to trade for him, but you're also upset that only 5 teams can win the title? Do you see why that doesn't really make sense?
I don't think Josh Smith is truly a difference-maker. I just miss the time when owners would make bold moves. I am actually more disappointed in the other 4 teams besides the Heat didn't make any moves. Those four teams, as presently constituted, cannot beat the Heat in my estimation. The Spurs stood pat instead of going after Al Jefferson. Could the Pacers gotten anything for Danny Granger? I don't know. I hope that further explains my position.

Guppyfighter
02-21-2013, 08:19 PM
I don't think Josh Smith is truly a difference-maker. I just miss the time when owners would make bold moves. I am actually more disappointed in the other 4 teams besides the Heat didn't make any moves. Those four teams, as presently constituted, cannot beat the Heat in my estimation. The Spurs stood pat instead of going after Al Jefferson. Could the Pacers gotten anything for Danny Granger? I don't know. I hope that further explains my position.

Your estimation doesn't matter. Spurs could totally beat the Heat in the playoffs as well as other good teams.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 08:24 PM
You forgot the Bulls (assuming all teams are healthy)

I don't think the Bulls can score enough points to be true contenders. They couldn't beat the Heat when Rose was healthy and the Heat weren't NBA champs. Reggie Rose conspicuously left out Boozer when naming the Bulls great players today. I think that is telling in terms of how D. Rose may view Boozer. A stretch, but Boozer and Rose have never really meshed in Chicago. This Bulls team is worse than the '10-'11 Bulls and the Heat are better than the '10-'11 Heat team that beat the Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals. Sorry, not this year.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 08:31 PM
Your estimation doesn't matter. Spurs could totally beat the Heat in the playoffs as well as other good teams.

Wow. Then why even comment if it doesn't matter. Very disrespectful. The Spurs haven't won a title in 5 years. These present Spurs are very similar to the Patriots. A great reg. season team. I truly enjoy the Spurs. They are one of my favorite teams to watch. I just think the time has passed for their big three. I think LBJ is on a mission and will be tough to beat. I don't think the Spurs are built to win 16 postseason games.

Guppyfighter
02-21-2013, 08:40 PM
Wow. Then why even comment if it doesn't matter. Very disrespectful. The Spurs haven't won a title in 5 years. These present Spurs are very similar to the Patriots. A great reg. season team. I truly enjoy the Spurs. They are one of my favorite teams to watch. I just think the time has passed for their big three. I think LBJ is on a mission and will be tough to beat. I don't think the Spurs are built to win 16 postseason games.

2011 Mavericks. Yes, a big team gives trouble to the Heat especially when they play zone. Surprise, surprise, plenty of those types of teams are in the league. Heat are worse this year compared to last year and even though they are better than the Pacers, the gap been closed further and an upset is possible. Heat were only a correct foul call last year away from being knocked out of the playoffs by Celtics.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 08:48 PM
Yeah, dumb move by the Kings. I hope Crawford is good for the Celtics. I figured Orlando would get more for Redick than Udrih, but I don't know much about Harris or Lamb. Guess they'll finally get rid of Nelson in the off-season? I wish the Lakers would've made a move. Because they didn't, that means more drama until the summer.

I think Jordan Crawford is a perfect fit for Boston. He can't shoot, but he is tough. He will be gritty a compliment to Courtney Lee. I think he could be the starting 2 by the playoffs. Lamb is the shooter from Kentucky at the 2, last yr. I don't really like Harris. Vaguely remember him at Tennessee. Udrih is a good player to back up or even possibly replace Nelson as a short term replacement. Didn't Redick just sign a deal recently? His contract may have prohibited his market. I also think highly of Redick as a shooter. He would've been a nice fit in Chicago. They need shooting with no Korver now. Nelson has been on the decline since Rafer Alston took the Magic to the Finals. Ridiculous. He has almost completely flamed out to me. He really wasn't a PG coming out of college. He loves to shoot too much. I thought that Howard would be a great fit in LA. He has been a disaster. Very conflicted by this situation. I understand hitching your wagon to a top 7 player, when healthy. The problem for Dwight is, with no Dr. Buss, what is this franchise going to look like in the future. Yes, a dramatic and anxious summer.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 08:54 PM
2011 Mavericks. Yes, a big team gives trouble to the Heat especially when they play zone. Surprise, surprise, plenty of those types of teams are in the league. Heat are worse this year compared to last year and even though they are better than the Pacers, the gap been closed further and an upset is possible. Heat were only a correct foul call last year away from being knocked out of the playoffs by Celtics.

Did the Spurs get Dirk Nowitzki? I missed that. If they haven't, they're in trouble. I do like Leonard on Lebron. I do not like Duncan on James or Battier. I also like the matchup for the Heat if they face Bonner at the 4. Duncan, Leonard, Jackson, Manu, Parker is an interesting five. I still like Bosh, James, Battier or Allen, Wade and Chalmers over the Spurs. Thanks for playing.
:D

Guppyfighter
02-21-2013, 08:58 PM
Oh, only Dirk can beat the Heat?

I am guessing you have not been watching sports for that long. There are four possibilities.

Flukey ******** gets the Heat eliminated and or Random Variation in outcomes of close games
Match up mismatch for the Heat.
They run into a team that maybe better than them at that time.
They win the championship.

Heat could very possibly lose in the playoffs and you thinking they can't is pretty short-sighted and tells me you are pretty young.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 09:09 PM
Oh, only Dirk can beat the Heat?

I am guessing you have not been watching sports for that long. There are four possibilities.

Flukey ******** gets the Heat eliminated and or Random Variation in outcomes of close games
Match up mismatch for the Heat.
They run into a team that maybe better than them at that time.
They win the championship.

Heat could very possibly lose in the playoffs and you thinking they can't is pretty short-sighted and tells me you are pretty young.

I have forgotten more sports than you will ever know. Believe that. Basketball is a dynasty sport. Heat, Pistons, Spurs, Bulls, Lakers, Celtics and Rockets are the only teams, besides the '84 Sixers and 2011 Mavs, to win the title since 1980. Thats 9 teams in 32 seasons. NINE. Teams don't usually get hot a make a run in the NBA playoffs. This is not the NFL or March Madness. Best of seven series generally brings out the best team. Can the Heat lose? Yes. Any team can lose. I didn't think I needed to spell that out for you Guppy. I'm making a prediction. I also just gave you a history lesson. I won't even get into great players carrying those nine teams and hitting their primes during those dynastic runs. That would be like feeding a steak to a baby.
Class dismissed.

Guppyfighter
02-21-2013, 09:14 PM
Nah, you are new at this. I can tell.

Best team in the NBA only wins it all 53 percent of the time. Heat have lower odds because they aren't statistically the best team in the NBA, nor were they last year or the year before that. But they still have high odds because they play in the East where they are the only elite team in the SRS.

Saying the Spurs are only a regular season team is pretty dumb, by the way.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 09:30 PM
Nah, you are new at this. I can tell.

Best team in the NBA only wins it all 53 percent of the time. Heat have lower odds because they aren't statistically the best team in the NBA, nor were they last year or the year before that. But they still have high odds because they play in the East where they are the only elite team in the SRS.

Saying the Spurs are only a regular season team is pretty dumb, by the way.

You can tell by my number of posts, not my responses. I am annihilating you. The best team does not mean the best record. You sound silly. Seriously. Your stats sound sterile. Do you watch the games? Are you familiar with the history of the NBA? Furthermore, the Spurs have not been to the finals in five yrs. I call the Spurs a regular season team, because they have set a championship level. They are close, just not good enough to get over the hump. Lebron has carried his team 3 times in that period. He will do it again this yr.
You don't sound new at this. Just really, really clueless. Put your calculator down and watch the games.

Nice talking to you Bill James. Or is this Stephen Hawking? No. John Hollinger?

Guppyfighter
02-21-2013, 09:53 PM
You can tell by my number of posts, not my responses. I am annihilating you. The best team does not mean the best record. You sound silly. Seriously. Your stats sound sterile. Do you watch the games? Are you familiar with the history of the NBA? Furthermore, the Spurs have not been to the finals in five yrs. I call the Spurs a regular season team, because they have set a championship level. They are close, just not good enough to get over the hump. Lebron has carried his team 3 times in that period. He will do it again this yr.
You don't sound new at this. Just really, really clueless. Put your calculator down and watch the games.

Nice talking to you Bill James. Or is this Stephen Hawking? No. John Hollinger?

:laugh:

Best record doesn't mean best team. You are right. Didn't say that. I said the SRS. SOS + Margin of victory quantified essentially.

The Spurs have not been to the finals in five years? Wow, this changes everything. A team that lost to the Thunder last year thanks to a team getting a historical night from Ibaka and bad calls in game four just isn't a playoff team.

Two games away from the finals. They don't have what it takes. lmfao

jmj365
02-21-2013, 10:05 PM
:laugh:

Best record doesn't mean best team. You are right. Didn't say that. I said the SRS. SOS + Margin of victory quantified essentially.

The Spurs have not been to the finals in five years? Wow, this changes everything. A team that lost to the Thunder last year thanks to a team getting a historical night from Ibaka and bad calls in game four just isn't a playoff team.

Two games away from the finals. They don't have what it takes. lmfao

Numbers + basketball ignorance= basketball idiots?
You forgot it was 86 degrees and Obama was president and Amber Rose wasn't pregnant and Kim K. was married to Kris Humphries. EXCUSES!!! They lost. And they keep losing when it counts over the last 5 yrs. Did you know there was a doubleheader on TNT tonight? The NBA Champions are on. You should watch. Seriously. Stats. Shmats. You sound like a robot. A MacIntosh or a Commodore 64. Its on now. Right now. TNT.

Guppyfighter
02-21-2013, 10:08 PM
Numbers + basketball ignorance= basketball idiots?
You forgot it was 86 degrees and Obama was president and Amber Rose wasn't pregnant and Kim K. was married to Kris Humphries. EXCUSES!!! They lost. And they keep losing when it counts over the last 5 yrs. Did you know there was a doubleheader on TNT tonight? The NBA Champions are on. You should watch. Seriously. Stats. Shmats. You sound like a robot. A MacIntosh or a Commodore 64. Its on now. Right now. TNT.

I am watching the game. It's on my computer.

"Look at these fallacious stats, that somehow makes these accurate stats that actually measure and interpret data flawed somehow."


Only an idiot would discount the Spurs.

jmj365
02-21-2013, 10:22 PM
I am watching the game. It's on my computer.

"Look at these fallacious stats, that somehow makes these accurate stats that actually measure and interpret data flawed somehow."


Only an idiot would discount the Spurs.

Once again, I am a huge Spurs fan. Its over for them. Close but no cigar. I love your need to quote someone else to make your point. Im done now. The stats show 0-5 in the quest to the finals in the last five yrs. Very important stat. Is that on your spreadsheet? Lastly, oh great wizard of the cpu, I too was watching the game online.

bholly
02-21-2013, 10:26 PM
I don't think Josh Smith is truly a difference-maker. I just miss the time when owners would make bold moves. I am actually more disappointed in the other 4 teams besides the Heat didn't make any moves. Those four teams, as presently constituted, cannot beat the Heat in my estimation. The Spurs stood pat instead of going after Al Jefferson. Could the Pacers gotten anything for Danny Granger? I don't know. I hope that further explains my position.

Not really. Just sounds like you were hoping for deadline day entertainment and ended up bored.

In 14-15 months since the new CBA CP3, Durant, Dwight, Bynum, Iggy, Nash, Johnson, G Wallace, Chandler, Lin, Bogut, Ellis, Odom, Gay, K Martin, D West, Chauncey all switched teams. On that list I count at least 4 future HOFers and a bunch more recent All Stars and big names. So I don't buy that we haven't had any bold moves.

Of your 5 title contenders, four (Clippers, Pacers, Spurs, Thunder) have made bold moves to compete that people didn't really see coming and in some cases disagreed with given the new CBA (CP3, DeAndre contract, D West, Collison for Augustin, Hibbert contract, Hill for Leonard, Harden for Martin/Lamb) and that's a big part of why they're contenders, at least in the first two cases.

Really I just think people blame the CBA on everything without really knowing what they're talking about. In the offseason everyone was upset about teams making too many bold moves, offering big contracts to guys like Batum, Hibbert, Asik, Lin, etc, and now we have one quiet trade deadline and everyone's acting like nobody does anything anymore? Please.

Mostly it just seems weird to complain on the one hand that the league is becoming top heavy with only five contenders while on the other hand complaining that the CBA prevented the top teams from making blockbusters to try and improve. Just doesn't make sense.

Knick_Fever
02-21-2013, 10:36 PM
Im curious, since the trade deadline has passed, does that mean that the Hawks completely lose out on Smith? What are there options now?

RipCity32
02-21-2013, 10:47 PM
Im curious, since the trade deadline has passed, does that mean that the Hawks completely lose out on Smith? What are there options now?

Either pay him or let him walk for nothing now.

bholly
02-21-2013, 10:47 PM
Im curious, since the trade deadline has passed, does that mean that the Hawks completely lose out on Smith? What are there options now?

If he decides he wants to go to one of the teams with cap-room (Cleveland, Dallas, Detroit, Houston, maybe Indy, Milwaukee, NOH, Phoenix, Philly, Portland, maybe SAS, Utah) then they'll get nothing for him.

If, on the other hand, he decides he wants to go one of the bigger, over-the-cap teams that might want him (LAL, BOS, BKN, CHI, DEN, GSW, TOR), then they'll S+T him and get some value back. If there are multiple of those teams that are interested they could get pretty good value, given he'll be locked in to a new contract (as opposed to expiring like he is now).
This seems like the most likely to me. HOU looks pretty good, and maybe IND, and PHO could maybe tempt him for various reasons, but beyond that I think he'd wind up preferring one of the teams from the second list and that would become more likely.

Also possible they could just re-sign him. My expectation is that their plan A will be to take a run at both him and Dwight together, so there's a decent chance they'll try that.

RipCity32
02-21-2013, 10:55 PM
If he decides he wants to go to one of the teams with cap-room (Cleveland, Dallas, Detroit, Houston, maybe Indy, Milwaukee, NOH, Phoenix, Philly, Portland, maybe SAS, Utah) then they'll get nothing for him.

If, on the other hand, he decides he wants to go one of the bigger, over-the-cap teams that might want him (LAL, BOS, BKN, CHI, DEN, GSW, TOR), then they'll S+T him and get some value back. If there are multiple of those teams that are interested they could get pretty good value, given he'll be locked in to a new contract (as opposed to expiring like he is now).
This seems like the most likely to me. HOU looks pretty good, and maybe IND, and PHO could maybe tempt him for various reasons, but beyond that I think he'd wind up preferring one of the teams from the second list and that would become more likely.

Also possible they could just re-sign him. My expectation is that their plan A will be to take a run at both him and Dwight together, so there's a decent chance they'll try that.

Isn't there something making SnT difficult in the new CBA?

jmj365
02-22-2013, 01:59 PM
Not really. Just sounds like you were hoping for deadline day entertainment and ended up bored.

In 14-15 months since the new CBA CP3, Durant, Dwight, Bynum, Iggy, Nash, Johnson, G Wallace, Chandler, Lin, Bogut, Ellis, Odom, Gay, K Martin, D West, Chauncey all switched teams. On that list I count at least 4 future HOFers and a bunch more recent All Stars and big names. So I don't buy that we haven't had any bold moves.

Of your 5 title contenders, four (Clippers, Pacers, Spurs, Thunder) have made bold moves to compete that people didn't really see coming and in some cases disagreed with given the new CBA (CP3, DeAndre contract, D West, Collison for Augustin, Hibbert contract, Hill for Leonard, Harden for Martin/Lamb) and that's a big part of why they're contenders, at least in the first two cases.

Really I just think people blame the CBA on everything without really knowing what they're talking about. In the offseason everyone was upset about teams making too many bold moves, offering big contracts to guys like Batum, Hibbert, Asik, Lin, etc, and now we have one quiet trade deadline and everyone's acting like nobody does anything anymore? Please.

Mostly it just seems weird to complain on the one hand that the league is becoming top heavy with only five contenders while on the other hand complaining that the CBA prevented the top teams from making blockbusters to try and improve. Just doesn't make sense.

Durant switched teams. I missed that. I actually think you're helping my point. Besides CP3, Howard and maybe Gay, the rest of those trades were for money issues. Either they were'nt gonna pay or they didn't wanna pay anymore. Iggy, Johnson, Wallce, Chandler, Harden, Ellis and Odom were all salary dumps. Nash was free agency, so was Martin, Billups and West. I was speaking of the CBA in terms of the trading deadline. Even still, teams are more reluctant to make bold moves in this climate anytime of the year (i.e. re-signing or letting Harden walk, instead of creating a possible dynasty). Trading for Paul was a bold move that happened a yr and a half ago. Re-signing Jordan was neccessary and logical, not bold. Those other bold moves you speak of are not enough to beat the Heat. Those other 4 teams know that. They needed to make more happen to truly have a legit shot to win. I don't blame the CBA for activity or inactivity. I am only observing the ramifications. Guys like Steinbrenner, Buss and Debartolo didn't care about cost and focused on titles. I just feel like the owners are making a mint and could afford to maybe throw caution to the wind.