PDA

View Full Version : which player has been most lucky when it comes to having good teammates/front office?



el hidalgo
02-19-2013, 01:09 PM
who would you say has been the luckiest when it comes to having a good front office and good teammates around you? id have to say kobe. greatest coach ever along with shaq, pau, and other great player.

heyman321
02-19-2013, 01:12 PM
Kobe and Tim Duncan, and nobody else anywhere close. ////thread

justinnum1
02-19-2013, 01:15 PM
wade has been pretty lucky too, aside from those 2 down years between 08-10.

el hidalgo
02-19-2013, 01:15 PM
Kobe and Tim Duncan, and nobody else anywhere close. ////thread

tim duncan was the #1 option on all his championship teams though. kobe is only the number option on 1 maybe 2 of the championship teams. his support isnt even comparable to what it is like having shaq, anyway.

Sactown
02-19-2013, 01:26 PM
tim duncan was the #1 option on all his championship teams though. kobe is only the number option on 1 maybe 2 of the championship teams. his support isnt even comparable to what it is like having shaq, anyway.

Tim Duncan had some pretty damn good teams also, Pop seems to get everyone to produce.. Hell they almost beat the Heat without their starters this season.

MaloDaw9
02-19-2013, 01:28 PM
tim duncan was the #1 option on all his championship teams though. kobe is only the number option on 1 maybe 2 of the championship teams. his support isnt even comparable to what it is like having shaq, anyway.

Kobe is the only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years.
633 (2008), 695 (2009), 671 (2010)

NBA Finals MVP in 2009 and 2010

i dont understand the "maybe"..at all

but to answer your question i say all Lakers have been blessed with good teammates/FO

ManRam
02-19-2013, 01:28 PM
Duncan got the luckiest.

Robinson went down that year, and instead of being a contender the team plummeted to the third worst record, and won the lottery. That's just shear luck. Rarely, if ever, has a #1 overall pick gone to suck a talented team. Most of that talent came from Robinson who was just a few years removed from an MVP, but Sean Elliot and Avery Johnson were already there two, and the 4 of those guys were SAS' 4 best players when they won.

Then they out-drafted almost everyone in the league for a decade, considering where they were drafting. Hall of famers in 199 and 2001 in Ginobili (57th overall) and Parker (28th overall). They hit a lot with their late first round picks too. They were tremendously savvy in FA (ie. Jackson and Bowen in 2001, and Barry and Horry later on).


Kobe certainly is a close second. Shaq came along and provided him the help to win 3 championships. They generally do well in free agency with savvy moves since it's a good destination. The Pau trade obviously was tremendous.


Wade now falls into that category. Twice now he's gotten tremendous players to come to him and win championships.


Pretty much everyone these days winning multiple championships obviously is gonna be in the discussion. It takes a team; no one can do it on their own.

whitemamba33
02-19-2013, 01:42 PM
I don't really believe in luck. You make your own breaks in this world. Kobe is widely regarded as having one of the most intense work ethics in the game, so I think calling it "luck" is difficult for me to do. Sure he's had some things go his way, but they are mostly attributed to the position he put himself in, his work ethic, and his longevity.

Put TMAC in a Lakers jersey instead of Kobe and you have a MUCH smaller window to win championships. Same for Vince Carter. Or Allen Iverson. The fact that Kobe has been playing at a high level for well over a decade means that he has enjoyed several different championship windows instead of just one.

mightybosstone
02-19-2013, 01:44 PM
Robert Horry. /thread

Sactown
02-19-2013, 01:45 PM
I don't really believe in luck. You make your own breaks in this world. Kobe is widely regarded as having one of the most intense work ethics in the game, so I think calling it "luck" is difficult for me to do. Sure he's had some things go his way, but they are mostly attributed to the position he put himself in, his work ethic, and his longevity.

Put TMAC in a Lakers jersey instead of Kobe and you have a MUCH smaller window to win championships. Same for Vince Carter. Or Allen Iverson. The fact that Kobe has been playing at a high level for well over a decade means that he has enjoyed several different championship windows instead of just one.

Sooo Kobe was the GM?

naps
02-19-2013, 01:48 PM
Kobe by far. This ain't even close.


And how come no one once mentioned Magic yet? I mean the guy started with Kareem in his prime. Then all those show-time rosters.

Avenged
02-19-2013, 01:50 PM
Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Fisher, Horry.

ManRam
02-19-2013, 01:51 PM
I don't really believe in luck. You make your own breaks in this world. Kobe is widely regarded as having one of the most intense work ethics in the game, so I think calling it "luck" is difficult for me to do. Sure he's had some things go his way, but they are mostly attributed to the position he put himself in, his work ethic, and his longevity.

Put TMAC in a Lakers jersey instead of Kobe and you have a MUCH smaller window to win championships. Same for Vince Carter. Or Allen Iverson. The fact that Kobe has been playing at a high level for well over a decade means that he has enjoyed several different championship windows instead of just one.

Um...Kobe's legendary work ethic and longevity has nothing to do with Shaq going there. He frankly IS lucky that Shaq chose to go there. Kobe isn't the GM, and early on in his career he had no say at all. You can't credit him for all the teammates the team put around him. Yes, he's a part of the reason why LAL was an attractive destination, but come on...a lot of things had to happen that were completely out of his control.

If he were a player/GM, then yeah, maybe you could say that every ounce of success he had was because of how great he is, but that's not the case.

This isn't trying to discredit Kobe, it just is what it is. Start Kobe's career off on the Vancouver Grizzlies and the odds of him winning three titles as quickly as he did are about zilch. His great work ethic, his great skills, his longevity and so on won't matter if the front office didn't put a good team around him like he did. And since he has no control in those decisions (or at least didn't early on), he in a sense gets lucky.

kingkenny01
02-19-2013, 01:52 PM
Obviously Lebron James, How couldn't he win in cleveland? He had amazing players like Larry Hughes and Boobie Gibson lol

Swashcuff
02-19-2013, 01:53 PM
Robert Horry. /thread

Yeah a mod should really lock this **** up. Horry without question.

JiffyMix88
02-19-2013, 02:04 PM
Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Fisher, Horry.

boom lock it up and throw away the key

shep33
02-19-2013, 02:08 PM
Kobe and Duncan easily. Kobe had Shaq, then Pau and Lamar, now Dwight and Nash (albeit they've been crappy this year).

Look back at Duncan's career. He started out with David Robinson, guys like Sean Elliot, etc. Arguably the best coach in the NBA. Then when they won more titles, they have Manu, TP, and great depth. The Spurs are the best organization in the NBA when it comes to bringing in talent.

Snakeyestx
02-19-2013, 02:10 PM
Robert Horry. /thread

^ This. Ring count. :D

mightybosstone
02-19-2013, 02:12 PM
Between the Rockets, Lakers and Spurs, Horry played with arguably four of the 10 greatest players in the history of the NBA (Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan) as well as Hall of Famers like Drexler, Parker and Manu, He also played under three of the most successful coaches of the last 20 years (Tomjanovich, Jackson, Popovich) and won seven rings in a 14-year span. If that's not luck, I don't know what is.

If we're talking current players only, I'd go with Kobe over Duncan. He won five titles under arguably the greatest coach in NBA history, played with one of the 10 greatest players in NBA history and a future Hall of Famer in Pau Gasol. He also played with a franchise which regularly rapes trades and constantly attracts superstars in free agency. I would also bring up Dwight and Nash, except his good luck hasn't done him any favors this season.

mightybosstone
02-19-2013, 02:15 PM
Also, everyone keeps mentioning Wade, but I hardly think he's the luckiest player on the Heat. How about Udonis Haslem? He's only played with one franchise his whole career and been fortunate enough to play with Wade, Shaq, Lebron and Bosh.

whitemamba33
02-19-2013, 02:40 PM
Um...Kobe's legendary work ethic and longevity has nothing to do with Shaq going there. He frankly IS lucky that Shaq chose to go there. Kobe isn't the GM, and early on in his career he had no say at all. You can't credit him for all the teammates the team put around him. Yes, he's a part of the reason why LAL was an attractive destination, but come on...a lot of things had to happen that were completely out of his control.

If he were a player/GM, then yeah, maybe you could say that every ounce of success he had was because of how great he is, but that's not the case.

This isn't trying to discredit Kobe, it just is what it is. Start Kobe's career off on the Vancouver Grizzlies and the odds of him winning three titles as quickly as he did are about zilch. His great work ethic, his great skills, his longevity and so on won't matter if the front office didn't put a good team around him like he did. And since he has no control in those decisions (or at least didn't early on), he in a sense gets lucky.

Read up on Kobe's draft and his trade. He put himself in a position to land on a big market team. He refused to even work out for many small market teams. Saying he had "no control" doesn't do it for me.

Not only that, it's his talent level that caught the eye of the Lakers. How often do the Lakers give up veterans to land a rookie before he even plays a single game? They saw something in him, and it wasn't "luck".

IndyRealist
02-19-2013, 02:46 PM
Luckiest guys? Luc Longley, Brian Scalabrine, and every 12th man who got a ring riding the coattails of guys who get playing time.

blahblahyoutoo
02-19-2013, 04:01 PM
phil jackson.

Sota4Ever
02-19-2013, 04:08 PM
Kevin Love. Look at his teams he has had. Just to much of a stat padder to do anything with them.

TopsyTurvy
02-19-2013, 04:12 PM
I think this is the wrong question. The answer to the OP's question isn't any particular superstar at all, but instead the supporting cast of every championship team assembled over the past 20+ years.

To ask the proper question, one has to look at the trinity of coaching, personnel, and front office management. One could ask "which coach was the blessed with the best personnel and front office," or "which players were blessed with the best coach and front office?" It's almost impossible to isolate a player from a team and then compare that to the successes of that roster/front office. Historically there are VERY few situations where the desired answer would actually be a superstar player.

ManRam
02-19-2013, 04:37 PM
Read up on Kobe's draft and his trade. He put himself in a position to land on a big market team. He refused to even work out for many small market teams. Saying he had "no control" doesn't do it for me.

Not only that, it's his talent level that caught the eye of the Lakers. How often do the Lakers give up veterans to land a rookie before he even plays a single game? They saw something in him, and it wasn't "luck".


Sou you'd say, for example, compared to Kevin Garnett's days with Minnesota, Kobe was no more lucky in regards to the teammates and front office, and location, than KG was? Just because he forced his way to LA (allegedly, probably not true), and everything thus came together afterwards?

You'd say they had equal chances to succeed Kobe's success, which is greatly due to two acquisitions (Shaq and Pau) is completely a result of his own doings? KG was regarded as a better player for a good portion of the two player's careers, I think front office and location had more to do with that than Kobe v Garnett.


I don't buy it. Kobe was graced with some great talent and a great coach. Some of it had to do with the fact he was there, but to pretend like he's the sole reason everything that happened after he went to LA is because of him is a joke. He's not the GM, plain and simple. Shaq went to LA for Hollywood. The Pau trade didn't happen because Pau wanted to play with Kobe, it happened because Kobe's front office pulled off a GREAT trade. Phil only came because of Kobe? Nah. Kobe isn't the GM, you can't pretend he is.

He played a role, but crediting everything that happened after he got there to the sole fact that he was there isn't true. Plenty of great, even greater, players have been on teams that haven't been able to do what the Lakers have done for Kobe.



Also, I hope you've NEVER bashed a player for leaving a small market and going to a better team. Because refusing to play for the team that was gonna draft you is terrible. Even if that wasn't true, LA supposedly wanted him, so him heading to LA was out of his control.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2013, 04:48 PM
Duncan got the luckiest.

Robinson went down that year, and instead of being a contender the team plummeted to the third worst record, and won the lottery. That's just shear luck. Rarely, if ever, has a #1 overall pick gone to suck a talented team. Most of that talent came from Robinson who was just a few years removed from an MVP, but Sean Elliot and Avery Johnson were already there two, and the 4 of those guys were SAS' 4 best players when they won.

Then they out-drafted almost everyone in the league for a decade, considering where they were drafting. Hall of famers in 199 and 2001 in Ginobili (57th overall) and Parker (28th overall). They hit a lot with their late first round picks too. They were tremendously savvy in FA (ie. Jackson and Bowen in 2001, and Barry and Horry later on).


Kobe certainly is a close second. Shaq came along and provided him the help to win 3 championships. They generally do well in free agency with savvy moves since it's a good destination. The Pau trade obviously was tremendous.


Wade now falls into that category. Twice now he's gotten tremendous players to come to him and win championships.


Pretty much everyone these days winning multiple championships obviously is gonna be in the discussion. It takes a team; no one can do it on their own.

this pretty much sums up what I think as well.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2013, 04:49 PM
Kobe by far. This ain't even close.


And how come no one once mentioned Magic yet? I mean the guy started with Kareem in his prime. Then all those show-time rosters.

If we are going older, Magic and Bird are there as well.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Horry isn't anywhere near star level, but he is a great answer. Listing the stars he played next to is a long list.

LAKERMANIA
02-19-2013, 04:54 PM
who would you say has been the luckiest when it comes to having a good front office and good teammates around you? id have to say kobe. greatest coach ever along with shaq, pau, and other great player.

Dude give it a rest already..

mamba24
02-19-2013, 04:55 PM
Steve Kerr... 5 rings (3 with the Bulls, 2 with the Spurs) Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, David Robinson, Duncan, etc...

Jeffy25
02-19-2013, 04:57 PM
Robert Horry. /thread

Doesn't John Salley sort of fit in with this criteria?

Not to the extent of Horry of course

C_Mund
02-19-2013, 04:59 PM
tim duncan was the #1 option on all his championship teams though. kobe is only the number option on 1 maybe 2 of the championship teams. his support isnt even comparable to what it is like having shaq, anyway.

But when was the last time you saw a consensus #1 pick walk into a situation like Timmy? Usually first overall picks are garbage teams, not good teams that had a brutal injury season and lucked out in the lottery. THEN.... they were able to surround him with HOF-type talent with late-first and second round picks, savvy trades and signings. They've at least "fringe" contended virtually every year since his draft, even when he's had injuries. There hasn't been down time for Timmy like there was for Kobe.

Jeffy25
02-19-2013, 04:59 PM
What about the unluckiest?

CityofTreez
02-19-2013, 05:02 PM
My pick would be Karl Malone.

I know he didn't win "rings" but that roster he played on for several years was amazing for him.

IMO, the best pg i've ever watched in Stockton, a 3-pt specialist in Hornacek, a defensive specialist in Bryan Russell, and a big ogre named Greg Ostertag. Ostertag's inept ability to score allowed Malone to get almost every pass by Stockton. Malone knew the ball was coming his direction, and also knew Hornacek would drain.

He was loyal to Utah, and for good reason.
Malone lived the perfect life of a PF, he probably touched the ball at least 250+ a game. I'll never forget having to worry about Utah, and the very notion that Karl Malone would have every chance in the world to beat you.

Then, Sloan....

spurs21
02-19-2013, 05:16 PM
I don't believe in luck, i mean the spurs get very low draft picks, so its mostly from the good scouters the spurs have. Dude Ginobli at 57th and tp at 28th those are awful draft position but they made the best out of it cuz they play within a system

The Lakers on the otherhand, everyone wants to go there since it is the largest market team.
Kobe had Phil Jackson as a coach, Shaq, Gasol, artest, malone, dwight and nash (even though they kinda suck right now) These are all from signings and trades.
You might say the lakers are luckier since everyone wants to go there

Chronz
02-19-2013, 05:53 PM
Sou you'd say, for example, compared to Kevin Garnett's days with Minnesota, Kobe was no more lucky in regards to the teammates and front office, and location, than KG was? Just because he forced his way to LA (allegedly, probably not true), and everything thus came together afterwards?
Thats exactly what hes saying and how do you not know about Kobe's draft day agenda? Kobe gave the Lakers the greatest workout of all time from a prospect and they began their mission to get him in LA.

Buss himself has said they would have never gotten Kobe without his agent and families help. In a twisted way, Kobe DID position himself for success by guiding his way to LA. He would have been down for only a few big markets.

SanAntonioSpurs23
02-19-2013, 05:59 PM
Kobe and it's not even close.

Shaq, Gasol, Howard, Malone, Payton, Nash, Artest. Lakers have been able to pull off lop sided trades, and the front office is willing to spend bank on that team. Not that it's Kobe's fault, but give Duncan's Spurs team 90 million in cap space year after year and see what they could do... Duncan had Robinson in the tail end of his career, and then relied on a late 1st rounder and the last pick in the 2nd round.

LongWayFromHome
02-19-2013, 06:04 PM
The question should be "which star".

obviously no star could be the answer to this question

shep33
02-19-2013, 06:05 PM
If we are going older, Magic and Bird are there as well.

Absolutely. Talk about stacked teams lol. Celtics and Magic in the 80s were full of greats.

whitemamba33
02-19-2013, 07:21 PM
Sou you'd say, for example, compared to Kevin Garnett's days with Minnesota, Kobe was no more lucky in regards to the teammates and front office, and location, than KG was? Just because he forced his way to LA (allegedly, probably not true), and everything thus came together afterwards?

You'd say they had equal chances to succeed Kobe's success, which is greatly due to two acquisitions (Shaq and Pau) is completely a result of his own doings? KG was regarded as a better player for a good portion of the two player's careers, I think front office and location had more to do with that than Kobe v Garnett.


I don't buy it. Kobe was graced with some great talent and a great coach. Some of it had to do with the fact he was there, but to pretend like he's the sole reason everything that happened after he went to LA is because of him is a joke. He's not the GM, plain and simple. Shaq went to LA for Hollywood. The Pau trade didn't happen because Pau wanted to play with Kobe, it happened because Kobe's front office pulled off a GREAT trade. Phil only came because of Kobe? Nah. Kobe isn't the GM, you can't pretend he is.

He played a role, but crediting everything that happened after he got there to the sole fact that he was there isn't true. Plenty of great, even greater, players have been on teams that haven't been able to do what the Lakers have done for Kobe.



Also, I hope you've NEVER bashed a player for leaving a small market and going to a better team. Because refusing to play for the team that was gonna draft you is terrible. Even if that wasn't true, LA supposedly wanted him, so him heading to LA was out of his control.

You are exaggerating. I can't tell if it's just for effect, or if it's because you really don't believe the $$$$ that you are typing, but either way - relax.

I never said Kobe was the sole reason for anything. I just don't believe in luck. If he's a garbage player do the Lakers even think about trading for him? Nope. Without his work ethic does he elevate himself to the level where he and Shaq can win three straight? Probably not. If he doesn't lean on the front office and demand a trade in order to change around the struggling Lakers after Shaq left, does the FO try so hard to pair him up with a star player? Maybe not. Does Pau resign with the Lakers without Bryant? I doub it. If he's not the player he is, do the other free agents still have the Lakers at the top of their list? Not if winning is important to them. I'm not saying Kobe is the GM or coach of this team. But you make your own breaks.

To my knowledge, Garnett didn't come in with the same level of desire to play in a big market He made the decision to stay in Minnesota when his contract was up. That's a decision he made. Any other team would have welcomed him with open arms. At the end of the day, he spent a lot of his prime playing for a bad team as a result of his decision.

Lol I can tell you didn't complete the reading assignment I gave you. Kobe wanted to go to a big market, not necessarily a "better team". Kobe's first choice was to go to the Clippers.....the Clippers. This isn't' the same thing as LeBron going to Miami because he repeatedly failed to take the number 1 team in the league to the ultimate goal.

LoveMeOrHateMe
02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
This is so meant to be a Kobe bashing thread, and it's usually comes from the same guy

gotoHcarolina52
02-19-2013, 07:40 PM
Kobe Bryant. He's had more help than anyone not named Phil Jackson.

DreamShaker
02-19-2013, 07:51 PM
What about Bill Russell? Sam Jones, Hondo, Cousey, Heinson, Snatch Sanders, K.C. Jones. I know that was a different time, butstill. Lol.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2013, 08:01 PM
But when was the last time you saw a consensus #1 pick walk into a situation like Timmy? Usually first overall picks are garbage teams, not good teams that had a brutal injury season and lucked out in the lottery. THEN.... they were able to surround him with HOF-type talent with late-first and second round picks, savvy trades and signings. They've at least "fringe" contended virtually every year since his draft, even when he's had injuries. There hasn't been down time for Timmy like there was for Kobe.


even though I always say "boo freakin hoo" to Laker fans who whine about his 3 years without championship help, you are right.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2013, 08:02 PM
What about Bill Russell? Sam Jones, Hondo, Cousey, Heinson, Snatch Sanders, K.C. Jones. I know that was a different time, butstill. Lol.

do you realize the age average of PSD? I am a geezer here, and Russell played when my dad was a teenager.