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D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 01:44 PM
Kyrie Irving is the second best PG in the NBA, the world just doesn't know it yet. :nod:

NoahH
02-17-2013, 01:48 PM
I'm not debating that

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 01:49 PM
He is getting there if he isn't, no doubt. I still have CP3 and Parker this year above him.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:53 PM
Second year, second or third best PG. This kid has a future with KD.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 01:55 PM
Once he gets the wins necessary he will get the recognition, but make no mistake, hes already there.

smith&wesson
02-17-2013, 01:56 PM
Lebron will go back to Cleveland to play with irie Kyrie

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 01:56 PM
Once he gets the wins necessary he will get the recognition, but make no mistake, hes already there.

you don't need wins to be recognized by knowledgeable fans. It can help, but how come Kevin Love was widely regarded as the best PF (despite what you think)? Irving needs to play some defense, and the rest of his game will do that talking. He will for sure be a top 2-3 PG very, very soon, and may end up the best PG in the game for portions of his prime.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 01:57 PM
CP3 and Parker have undoubtedly been better...and I'm still taking RWB.

Winning the 3 pt contest and thriving in an exhibition game isn't shaping my opinion one way or the other, however.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:59 PM
Don't forget about Trist Thompson. He's putting up 11/9 and is part of LeBron's agency.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:03 PM
you don't need wins to be recognized by knowledgeable fans. It can help, but how come Kevin Love was widely regarded as the best PF (despite what you think)? Irving needs to play some defense, and the rest of his game will do that talking. He will for sure be a top 2-3 PG very, very soon, and may end up the best PG in the game for portions of his prime.

True. Your probably right. I actually gave Love the nod as well and had him above Melo before this season as my #7 and #8 guys in the NBA. Dude put up Wilt Chamberlain numbers on top of being a 3 point champ. I was more or less saying that for the people that would undoubtedly come in here and say guys like Rose, Parker, Rondo are above him because of their winning pedigrees and overall accolades, which is fair, but were not talking legacies here.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:05 PM
True. Your probably right. I actually gave Love the nod as well and had him above Melo before this season as my #7 and #8 guys in the NBA. Dude put up Wilt Chamberlain numbers on top of being a 3 point champ. I was more or less saying that for the people that would undoubtedly come in here and say guys like Rose, Parker, Rondo are above him because of their winning pedigrees and overall accolades, which is fair, but were not talking legacies here.

fair enough, I see your point, I guess you and I just don't subscribe to the general line of thinking when it comes to evaluating a player. Not player A's fault he plays with garbage..

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:05 PM
and Rondo doesn't even belong in the discussion with Irving now by the way. Rondo fans can butcher me all they want, its true.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:06 PM
CP3 and Parker have undoubtedly been better...and I'm still taking RWB.

Winning the 3 pt contest and thriving in an exhibition game isn't shaping my opinion one way or the other, however.

Throw Kyrie on those two respective teams and we might be looking at the league MVP. There is next to nothing this kid can't do and hes got the 'it' factor and clutch gene that you can't teach.

You can wait to hand it over, but I think hes already got it, and just needs the recognition now, but I think is fair to hold off on giving him this early. I will just choose not to.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:07 PM
Throw Kyrie on those two respective teams and we might be looking at the league MVP. There is next to nothing this kid can't do and hes got the 'it' factor and clutch gene that you can't teach.

The reason I still take those two over Irving right now, is their experience and smarts allow them to be better.


Right now...

ManRam
02-17-2013, 02:07 PM
Throw Kyrie on those two respective teams and we might be looking at the league MVP. There is next to nothing this kid can't do and hes got the 'it' factor and clutch gene that you can't teach.

CP3 is certainly still the better all around player right now. For this season, the Spurs are better with Parker's experience. Going forward, there obviously isn't a PG any team would want more than Kyrie...and that includes Rose, RWB, CP3 etc.

Kyrie has already flew right past guys like Rondo though. For sure.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:08 PM
It started before last night, it started when he whooped team USA with the select team. Cavs need to do everything in their power to get him help NOW, enough with the slow develop young players nonsense. Get legit help and let your superstar shine.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:09 PM
It started before last night, it started when he whooped team USA with the select team. Cavs need to do everything in their power to get him help NOW, enough with the slow develop young players nonsense. Get legit help and let your superstar shine.

Its as if I have heard that before.....

JNoel
02-17-2013, 02:12 PM
Irving is already better than W-Brick imo, but definitely has a higher ceiling. He'll be the best PG someday.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:13 PM
It started before last night, it started when he whooped team USA with the select team. Cavs need to do everything in their power to get him help NOW, enough with the slow develop young players nonsense. Get legit help and let your superstar shine.

Yeah, Antawn Jamison and Kwame Brown and then blame Kyrie for wanting to leave 5 years later.

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 02:20 PM
Irving is not even TOP 20 he is GARBAGE.What has he done to deserve it?Winning the 3 point contest means nothing look at Kevin Love only losers win that Sh!@t.

Make the playoffs first right now he is nothing but a statbooster on a garbage team.

Fired-Up
02-17-2013, 02:22 PM
How is he better than Tony Parker.

This thread=Fail.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:29 PM
Its as if I have heard that before.....

Obviously you need to be smart about it, and not acquire guys 8-10 years older than Kyrie who are already past their prime and making a ton of $$$, but as a Wolves fan I would think you would know these slow methodical rebuilds can last a decade and it could cost you your superstar, likes it looks like it might with Love. Find Kyrie some help but don't waste all your future assets. His supporting cast is the worst in the league by far right now.

They don't need to trade ALL their young assets, but they don't need to keep them all either......I admittedly don't watch a ton of Cavs games (probably about 10-12 this season), but I would imagine they could get some pieces for a guy like Zeller while still keeping Tristan Thompson, or trade Thompson for an all star and keep Zeller. They have options where they can get better now and still not decimate their future.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:35 PM
How is he better than Tony Parker.

This thread=Fail.

You can put Parker above him, thats fair, Parker is a top 3 MVP candidate. I think Irving is the better player. I think he would be a top 3 MVP candidate and Parker would struggle if they swapped places.

My point of posting this after last night is that this kid wasn't even supposed to be a deadly deadly shooter coming out of school, dude almost broke the record for the 3 point contest. This is on top of what he already CAN do with all the other aspects of his game. He doesn't have a weakness and you can see it out there now, you can choose to wait until the rest of the world acknowledges it but its already there.

He is the next face of the league on and off the court.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:36 PM
Irving is not even TOP 20 he is GARBAGE.What has he done to deserve it?Winning the 3 point contest means nothing look at Kevin Love only losers win that Sh!@t.

Make the playoffs first right now he is nothing but a statbooster on a garbage team.

totally. Chalmers and Conley take a dump on Irving...

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:37 PM
Obviously you need to be smart about it, and not acquire guys 8-10 years older than Kyrie who are already past their prime and making a ton of $$$, but as a Wolves fan I would think you would know these slow methodical rebuilds can last a decade and it could cost you your superstar, likes it looks like it might with Love. Find Kyrie some help but don't waste all your future assets. His supporting cast is the worst in the league by far right now.

They don't need to trade ALL their young assets, but they don't need to keep them all either......I admittedly don't watch a ton of Cavs games (probably about 10-12 this season), but I would imagine they could get some pieces for a guy like Zeller while still keeping Tristan Thompson, or trade Thompson for an all star and keep Zeller. They have options where they can get better now and still not decimate their future.

Forgive me for saying so, but I don't think Cleveland has any idea what they are doing in that front office. Being gifted LeBron, and now Irving, doesn't make them an intelligent front office. I see them pissing this opportunity away as well.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 02:38 PM
BlitzBolt, you are everything I wish I could be. I truly respect you, and I don't think I've ever told anyone that before.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:40 PM
Forgive me for saying so, but I don't think Cleveland has any idea what they are doing in that front office. Being gifted LeBron, and now Irving, doesn't make them an intelligent front office. I see them pissing this opportunity away as well.

I don't disagree but its sort of a tough line to tread when you have a superstar who hits their stride so young that they are 'ahead of their time'. You need to take advantage of that and build a team capable of winning earlier than you might have expected, but still need to maintain your future and not 'put all your eggs in one basket', leaving yourself flexibility to continue to get better down the line. If you don't do step 1, you have an upset superstar who wants to leave before they even reach their prime (sort of like Love), if you DO step 1, you risk killing your chances at step 2 by wasting your future assets and flexibility to 'win now' and never getting it done (Dwight in Orlando, LBJ in Cleveland).

Its a tough line to tread for sure. Thats where GM's really earn their $$$. Its almost more difficult to do a great job once you've been gifted that young superstar than it is before hand, in some weird twisted way. It may just be that the stakes get raised once you get that star and the pressure to win begins to mount up. Where a GM for a crappy team is almost playing with house money for a few years with expected trips to the lottery.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:41 PM
BlitzBolt, you are everything I wish I could be. I truly respect you, and I don't think I've ever told anyone that before.

Everytime I read his posts I picture him looking like that fat ginger kid in that Grizzlies jersey he used to rock in his sig.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:42 PM
Everytime I read his posts I picture him looking like that fat ginger kid in that Grizzlies jersey he used to rock in his sig.

You mean Stan Van Gundy?

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 02:43 PM
Everyone gets mad at me because you all know its the true if he is a top 3 PG he should have his team in the playoffs.

Make the playoffs and then come tell me how good he is right now this is not worth talking about he is on a garbage team no one cares about.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:44 PM
You mean Stan Van Gundy?

I was referring to Blitz, the only Grizz fan on here.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:45 PM
Everyone gets mad at me because you all know its the true if he is a top 3 PG he should have his team in the playoffs.

Make the playoffs and then come tell me how good he is right now this is not worth talking about he is on a garbage team no one cares about.

Kobe missed the playoffs smack dab in the middle of his prime.

Your argument sucks.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:47 PM
I don't disagree but its sort of a tough line to tread when you have a superstar who hits their stride so young that they are 'ahead of their time'. You need to take advantage of that and build a team capable of winning earlier than you might have expected, but still need to maintain your future and not 'put all your eggs in one basket', leaving yourself flexibility to continue to get better down the line. If you don't do step 1, you have an upset superstar who wants to leave before they even reach their prime (sort of like Love), if you DO step 1, you risk killing your chances at step 2 by wasting your future assets and flexibility to 'win now' and never getting it done (Dwight in Orlando, LBJ in Cleveland).

Its a tough line to tread for sure. Thats where GM's really earn their $$$. Its almost more difficult to do a great job once you've been gifted that young superstar than it is before hand, in some weird twisted way. It may just be that the stakes get raised once you get that star and the pressure to win begins to mount up. Where a GM for a crappy team is almost playing with house money for a few years with expected trips to the lottery.

I agree completely, but there is a reason there isn't much parity. Only a few teams know how to get it right. Cleveland is not one of them. Hell, neither is my team.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Everyone gets mad at me because you all know its the true if he is a top 3 PG he should have his team in the playoffs.

Make the playoffs and then come tell me how good he is right now this is not worth talking about he is on a garbage team no one cares about.

No one is mad at you. Hahaha.

And we all certainly know your logic is far from true. It's just preposterous. He's got very little around him. He's doing all he can, and his stats aren't empty.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Everyone gets mad at me because you all know its the true if he is a top 3 PG he should have his team in the playoffs.

Make the playoffs and then come tell me how good he is right now this is not worth talking about he is on a garbage team no one cares about.

So, by your rational, a team that misses the playoffs has all terrible players, and any team that makes it has good/great players.

That is correct, right?

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 02:49 PM
First off let me say that I think Irving is a phenominal player. Without a doubt one of the up and coming stars in the NBA. But to say he is in the top 2 point guards is jumping the gun a little too fast. I guess it depends how you like your point guard. Are we talking a true point guard? Meaning you get your whole team involved and do all those things to win as a team. Or are we talking a scoring point guard? Where you may slightly get your team involved but you are releyed on to do a majority of the scoring for the team to be successful? I have Irving right now rated as a shooting point guard and maybe not by choice, it's just that his team stinks.

In my opinion right now I would have the top rated point guards ( injured or not injured ) in the NBA right now are in no particular order:

Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Stephen Curry,Kyrie Irving,Deron Williams, Brandon Jennings, Damian Lillard and Jrue Holiday.

It is the " era of the point guard " where many teams would be happy with any of these guys. Most of them are required to score on their teams for them to be successful so again it comes down to how you rate thepoint guards. I have Irving in my top 5 right now and I think he's great but I'm not quite ready to hand over a 1-3 spot so fast.

mdm692
02-17-2013, 02:51 PM
If I'm not mistaken they have ALOT of cap space this off-season to go along with their lotto pick so if they make the right moves it wouldn't surprise me to see them in the playoffs gicing the #1 or #2 seed in the East a run for their money.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:53 PM
I agree completely, but there is a reason there isn't much parity. Only a few teams know how to get it right. Cleveland is not one of them. Hell, neither is my team.

Unfortunately the Knicks haven't drafted a young superstar since Ewing, so I wouldn't even know how these guys would handle that type of scenario, but while I think most young stars who get drafted in NY would choose to stay their and enhance their brand, I can't imagine we would nail that long term team building process either. I would bet we would be one of those teams who succeed at step 1 and fail at step 2. We were never able to get Ewing the guy he needed to get himself over the hump, and his career wasted away with 2008 Cleveland-type support for like 15 years.

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 02:56 PM
So, by your rational, a team that misses the playoffs has all terrible players, and any team that makes it has good/great players.

That is correct, right?I take Parker over Irving why??because he has prove he has WINS RINGS playoffs games ect...Empty stats on a bad team means nothing D-league players do it all the time.


Irving has done nothing to derserve it NOTHING same thing with Kevin Love David Lee ect...

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:57 PM
First off let me say that I think Irving is a phenominal player. Without a doubt one of the up and coming stars in the NBA. But to say he is in the top 2 point guards is jumping the gun a little too fast. I guess it depends how you like your point guard. Are we talking a true point guard? Meaning you get your whole team involved and do all those things to win as a team. Or are we talking a scoring point guard? Where you may slightly get your team involved but you are releyed on to do a majority of the scoring for the team to be successful? I have Irving right now rated as a shooting point guard and maybe not by choice, it's just that his team stinks.

In my opinion right now I would have the top rated point guards ( injured or not injured ) in the NBA right now are in no particular order:

Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Stephen Curry,Kyrie Irving,Deron Williams, Brandon Jennings, Damian Lillard and Jrue Holiday.

It is the " era of the point guard " where many teams would be happy with any of these guys. Most of them are required to score on their teams for them to be successful so again it comes down to how you rate thepoint guards. I have Irving in my top 5 right now and I think he's great but I'm not quite ready to hand over a 1-3 spot so fast.

I expected the majority to feel that way, and I completely understand the hesitancy to do so when guys have been league MVP's, finals MVP's and the like. I just see this kid as the future and slowly but surely its unfolding. He has it all, even the off-the-court superstardom. Agents are already seeing him as the league's top 'pitchman' in a few years. Hes going to be the guy whos remembered with CP3 as top PGs from this generation. Its still folded over but slowly unfolding little by little and its inevitably going to happen. Some will choose to wait but I'm not. Kid is an absolute stud and has the intangible 'it' factor nearly nobody else on that list you mentioned have.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 02:58 PM
If I'm not mistaken they have ALOT of cap space this off-season to go along with their lotto pick so if they make the right moves it wouldn't surprise me to see them in the playoffs gicing the #1 or #2 seed in the East a run for their money.

Cleveland suddenly became free agent destination. Going to be interesting to see who the guy Cleveland decides to team Kyrie up with and make a run at it, whether its via trade or cap. Eventually they are going to have to make that move that sacrifices a little of their future potential but skyrockets their 'now' potential.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 02:58 PM
I take Parker over Irving why??because he has prove he has WINS RINGS playoffs games ect...Empty stats on bad team means nothing D-league player do it all the time.


Irving has done nothing to derserve it NOTHING same thing with Kevin Love David Lee ect...

You made the claim 2 weeks ago that you would take Mario Chalmers over Kyrie Irving, because he wins playoff games.

Your logic is ridiculous.

kobe4thewinbang
02-17-2013, 03:02 PM
Yeah, Irving is great. It's good that he can still improve and hasn't hit his ceiling yet. But I think Cleveland is operating slower than him. It could easily turn into "The Destination" all over again if Cleveland fails at supplying him with help.

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 03:03 PM
You made the claim 2 weeks ago that you would take Mario Chalmers over Kyrie Irving, because he wins playoff games.

Your logic is ridiculous.Chalmers is a proven WINNER High School College NBA he knows what it takes to win.And sure Chalmers had more help but guess what too bad Irving got draft it by a Garbage team so that makes him a garbage player.

kobe4thewinbang
02-17-2013, 03:03 PM
Chalmers is a proven WINNER High School College NBA he knows what it takes to win.And sure Chalmers had more help but guess what too bad Irving got draft it by a Garbage team so that makes him a garbage player.:facepalm:

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:05 PM
I expected the majority to feel that way, and I completely understand the hesitancy to do so when guys have been league MVP's, finals MVP's and the like. I just see this kid as the future and slowly but surely its unfolding. He has it all, even the off-the-court superstardom. Agents are already seeing him as the league's top 'pitchman' in a few years. Hes going to be the guy whos remembered with CP3 as top PGs from this generation. Its still folded over but slowly unfolding little by little and its inevitably going to happen. Some will choose to wait but I'm not. Kid is an absolute stud and has the intangible 'it' factor nearly nobody else on that list you mentioned have.

I can respect that. I just hope he doesn't pull another " decision " and jump to another team. Like I said thought I think he is great but I need to see just a little bit more before he gets past others.

kobe4thewinbang
02-17-2013, 03:05 PM
I just watched the mini-movie on NBA.com, and I wouldn't say it was a bad event. Might've even been better than some in recent years. I liked the team competition aspect, and everybody seemed to have a good time. Aside from lacking the "slam" part of a dunk, there were some nice dunks. I liked the behind the back one.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 03:06 PM
Yeah, Irving is great. It's good that he can still improve and hasn't hit his ceiling yet. But I think Cleveland is operating slower than him. It could easily turn into "The Destination" all over again if Cleveland fails at supplying him with help.

Agreed. I don't think Cleveland, heck Kyrie even said he didn't expect himself to take the league by storm this early. Cleveland needs to speed up their rebuild thats for sure. Time to get legit again, except do it smart this time.

I think they should explore trading Varejao to a team that wants him for next year. Similar to Warriors getting Bogut.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:06 PM
I can respect that. I just hope he doesn't pull another " decision " and jump to another team. Like I said thought I think he is great but I need to see just a little bit more before he gets past others.

Then Cleveland needs to get him help. Stars leave teams that don't provide them help, that is just the way it goes.

kobe4thewinbang
02-17-2013, 03:07 PM
I can respect that. I just hope he doesn't pull another " decision " and jump to another team. Like I said thought I think he is great but I need to see just a little bit more before he gets past others.Yeah, let's hope it doesn't take Cleveland 7 years to get it wrong again.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:07 PM
Agreed. I don't think Cleveland, heck Kyrie even said he didn't expect himself to take the league by storm this early. Cleveland needs to speed up their rebuild thats for sure. Time to get legit again, except do it smart this time.

I think they should explore trading Varejao to a team that wants him for next year. Similar to Warriors getting Bogut.

If we let Pekovic walk (assuming he gets some ridiculous offer via RFA), I think the Wolves will be looking to acquire Varejao.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 03:09 PM
I can respect that. I just hope he doesn't pull another " decision " and jump to another team. Like I said thought I think he is great but I need to see just a little bit more before he gets past others.

I feel like he is just giving us those 'legacy moments' that you remember 20 years from now that the great ones always give you. Taking the spot of one of the GOAT's and saving the sanity of a devestated city. The legend of him dominating Team USA that nobody has ever seen, only heard, like some ****ing urban legend, nearly setting the record in the 3 point contest, dropping his career high his first game at MSG with a black ****ing batman mask on, some of the sickest AI type crossovers you will ever see. Its like this **** is getting scripted for him to be one of the greatest. Kid has an aura about him that I can't really explain but I can see it out there.

SteBO
02-17-2013, 03:10 PM
Everyone gets mad at me because you all know its the true if he is a top 3 PG he should have his team in the playoffs.

Make the playoffs and then come tell me how good he is right now this is not worth talking about he is on a garbage team no one cares about.
So Mike Conley is better than Kyrie?

WITZ
02-17-2013, 03:12 PM
It started before last night, it started when he whooped team USA with the select team. Cavs need to do everything in their power to get him help NOW, enough with the slow develop young players nonsense. Get legit help and let your superstar shine.

The thing is they tried that with lebron & we all know how that turned out A. they didn't have the assets to acquire a game changer and B. they didn't have much young talent on those teams period. They are going about it different this time around they have something like 6 1st round picks over the next 3 years and if they can hit on a couple of those picks they are better off, then say becoming a fringe or mid of the pack playoff team and being stuck there for the next couple of years.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 03:12 PM
The NBA gives you every opportunity to keep your star. They will be able to match anything as he is a RFA for his first long term max contract, correct? Similar to how Milwaukee was able to keep Jennings even though he hates it there and is going to bolt as soon as he was UFA (obviously Jennings is 12 tiers below Kyrie, just saying for comparisons sake). Cleveland will have proper time and a fair shot to get it right. I hope for their sake they can get it done. They have a great basketball fanbase and deserve it.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:13 PM
I take Parker over Irving why??because he has prove he has WINS RINGS playoffs games ect...Empty stats on a bad team means nothing D-league players do it all the time.


Irving has done nothing to derserve it NOTHING same thing with Kevin Love David Lee ect...

Parker is playing on a team that beat the Bulls with their bench players.. You're giving Parker too much credit. Second best PG but if you got a team like Parker does, it changes everything.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 03:14 PM
The thing is they tried that with lebron & we all know how that turned out A. they didn't have the assets to acquire a game changer and B. they didn't have much young talent on those teams period. They are going about it different this time around they have something like 6 1st round picks over the next 3 years and if they can hit on a couple of those picks they are better off, then say becoming a fringe or mid of the pack playoff team and being stuck there for the next couple of years.

Yea I acknowledged the fact that they can't put all their eggs in one basket and sacrifice all their future assets and flexibility, but they need a mix of both. Can't sit around for 6 years waiting/hoping/praying these young guys all pan out while Kyrie is waisting away his prime. Also can't sacrifice your entire future for over the hill stars-turned-30+ role players. Its a fine line, but they gotta start at least trying to walk it. Not saying you trade Tristan Thompson for Antawn Jamison and waste cap on Mo Williams but you start to explore getting better NOW and not just sitting and waiting for draft picks to hopefully pan out.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:15 PM
Then Cleveland needs to get him help. Stars leave teams that don't provide them help, that is just the way it goes.

Yea it's just unfortunate that it's " Cleveland " that is looking for help. Not exactly a free-agent's dream scenario for sure. Money does talk though so we'll see what happens. Cleveland also has a couple first round draft picks coming up plus I believe an option for a third. Things could get very interesting if the correct moves are made.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:16 PM
So Mike Conley is better than Kyrie?

he said two weeks ago that Chalmers was better than Irving. Stebo, did you know that the Heat, your team, would be worse if you traded Chalmers straight up for Irving?

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:17 PM
Yea it's just unfortunate that it's " Cleveland " that is looking for help. Not exactly a free-agent's dream scenario for sure. Money does talk though so we'll see what happens. Cleveland also has a couple first round draft picks coming up plus I believe an option for a third. Things could get very interesting if the correct moves are made.

Players will go play with a young superstar though. They just need to do a better job of not signing garbage and having a poor coach this time around. I don't trust them to make this work, they are one of many teams that just doesn't know what the hell they are doing. My team is like this as well. Awesome.

Melo15
02-17-2013, 03:18 PM
If we let Pekovic walk (assuming he gets some ridiculous offer via RFA), I think the Wolves will be looking to acquire Varejao.

The problem for the Cavs is Varejao probably doesn't have much value at all on the trade market. I would love to deal him, but you'd have to think teams would be hesitant to give up much at all with his injury history. As a Cavs fan I expect him to stay in Cleveland just because they probably won't be able to find a deal that makes it worth moving him.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:18 PM
I feel like he is just giving us those 'legacy moments' that you remember 20 years from now that the great ones always give you. Taking the spot of one of the GOAT's and saving the sanity of a devestated city. The legend of him dominating Team USA that nobody has ever seen, only heard, like some ****ing urban legend, nearly setting the record in the 3 point contest, dropping his career high his first game at MSG with a black ****ing batman mask on, some of the sickest AI type crossovers you will ever see. Its like this **** is getting scripted for him to be one of the greatest. Kid has an aura about him that I can't really explain but I can see it out there.

Cleveland and their fans are praying that you are correct !!!! He is off to a great start.

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 03:18 PM
So Mike Conley is better than Kyrie?

Conley is a Defensive PG people rather have the ball hog type PGs like Irving so even if I say yes no will agree with me.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:21 PM
Yea it's just unfortunate that it's " Cleveland " that is looking for help. Not exactly a free-agent's dream scenario for sure. Money does talk though so we'll see what happens. Cleveland also has a couple first round draft picks coming up plus I believe an option for a third. Things could get very interesting if the correct moves are made.

This is pure crap. LeBron James was more than enough to draw some huge name on that team. The Cleveland Cavailers are just terrible at managing their damn franchise. They sign Antawn to 10,000,000 a year? I mean c'mon.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:22 PM
Conley is a Defensive PG people rather have the ball hog type PGs like Irving so even if I say yes no will agree with me.

Conley better than Irving? Irving on that team would make them huge playoff contenders. Conley's defensive prowess does not justify the many parts of the game that Irving destroys him in.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:23 PM
Conley better than Irving? Irving on that team would make them huge playoff contenders. Conley's defensive prowess does not justify the many parts of the game that Irving destroys him in.

have you not gotten blitzbot's line of posting yet? You can not be good if you are on a bad team, and you can not be bad if you are on a good team. Hence why he would take Matt Bonner over Kevin Love, or Mario Chalmers over Kyrie Irving.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:24 PM
Players will go play with a young superstar though. They just need to do a better job of not signing garbage and having a poor coach this time around. I don't trust them to make this work, they are one of many teams that just doesn't know what the hell they are doing. My team is like this as well. Awesome.

The only problem is though while seeing the names of free agents I fail to see a difference maker who would leave their team to come help Cleveland. Unless it is someone just looking to get " paid " who will get way over what they are worth which is typical. You are right I don't trust them and it will be a struggle. Hopefully they draft well and get a coaching staff in there that can help them out.

yaswaggin
02-17-2013, 03:25 PM
Conley is a Defensive PG people rather have the ball hog type PGs like Irving so even if I say yes no will agree with me.



Take your roughly 4 posts a day to another forum

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:28 PM
The only problem is though while seeing the names of free agents I fail to see a difference maker who would leave their team to come help Cleveland. Unless it is someone just looking to get " paid " who will get way over what they are worth which is typical. You are right I don't trust them and it will be a struggle. Hopefully they draft well and get a coaching staff in there that can help them out.

You are so wrong man... Cleveland sucks as a location but when you're winning games and have a chance at the ring, you're the biggest deal. Look at LeBron James during that run. Cleveland was the biggest news and team in the NBA. They were televised nationally than any other team. If they can win, there are exceptions.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:30 PM
This is pure crap. LeBron James was more than enough to draw some huge name on that team. The Cleveland Cavailers are just terrible at managing their damn franchise. They sign Antawn to 10,000,000 a year? I mean c'mon.

Do you have a problem with reading or something? Who were these " huge names " he drew? Most free agents come to get " paid " which you just proved my point with Antawn's salary. Cleveland is a tough sell which is one of the major reason's why Lebron even left. I suggest you read and understand before you post.

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 03:30 PM
Tebow is a top 10 QB he knows how to win.Same thing with the NBA I rather win games even if it looks ugly rather then having a flashy guy scoring points while his team is down by 20 in the 4th.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:31 PM
Tebow is a top 10 QB he knows how to win.Same thing with the NBA I rather win games even if it looks ugly rather then having a flashy guy scoring points while his team is down by 20 in the 4th.

So your lack of knowledge isn't just limited to basketball?

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:32 PM
Tebow is a top 10 QB he knows how to win.Same thing with the NBA I rather win games even if it looks ugly rather then having a flashy guy scoring points while his team is down by 20 in the 4th.

Jordan with Luke Walton's on his team vs Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Hakeem. MJ sucks then?

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:32 PM
Tebow is a top 10 QB he knows how to win.Same thing with the NBA I rather win games even if it looks ugly rather then having a flashy guy scoring points while his team is down by 20 in the 4th.

Must be why Jets were so good.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:33 PM
You are so wrong man... Cleveland sucks as a location but when you're winning games and have a chance at the ring, you're the biggest deal. Look at LeBron James during that run. Cleveland was the biggest news and team in the NBA. They were televised nationally than any other team. If they can win, there are exceptions.

Once again read and understand before you post nonsense. Lebron left because Cleveland draws NO ONE !!!

They will have an extremely difficult time getting any major player to sign with the team unless they are looking for a payday. Get it?

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 03:33 PM
So your lack of knowledge isn't just limited to basketball?

LMFAO. This guy needs to quit. Hes taking 5 notches off whatever credibility he has left everytime he posts.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:35 PM
Once again read and understand before you post nonsense. Lebron left because Cleveland draws NO ONE !!!

They will have an extremely difficult time getting any major player to sign with the team unless they are looking for a payday. Get it?

LeBron James left because the management did a horrible job in grabbing players. It was an unrealistic situation for him to play in.

Cleveland Cavailers were the most watched and nationally televised team on the NBA during their run... What are you talking about?

The area is terrible, we get it. When you're winning, it's fun.

Cleveland is a small market team and that certainly damages them. But can you tell me why OKC is doing so good? They are just as bad as Cleveland but why did Durant, WB, and Ibaka sign with them? Hmmm...

RenegadeRiot36
02-17-2013, 03:38 PM
I feel like he is just giving us those 'legacy moments' that you remember 20 years from now that the great ones always give you. Taking the spot of one of the GOAT's and saving the sanity of a devestated city. The legend of him dominating Team USA that nobody has ever seen, only heard, like some ****ing urban legend, nearly setting the record in the 3 point contest, dropping his career high his first game at MSG with a black ****ing batman mask on, some of the sickest AI type crossovers you will ever see. Its like this **** is getting scripted for him to be one of the greatest. Kid has an aura about him that I can't really explain but I can see it out there.

I was thinking the same thing. There was also the one on one with Kobe in that Lakers game a few months back, and all of his game winners too. If anything, he gives us Cavs fans something to look forward too, even on a bad team. Thats one thing we've been missing since LBJ left.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 03:38 PM
LeBron James left because the management did a horrible job in grabbing players. It was an unrealistic situation for him to play in.

Cleveland Cavailers were the most watched and nationally televised team on the NBA during their run... What are you talking about?

The area is terrible, we get it. When you're winning, it's fun.

Cleveland is a small market team and that certainly damages them. But can you tell me why OKC is doing so good? They are just as bad as Cleveland but why did Durant, WB, and Ibaka sign with them? Hmmm...

they drafted all of them dude, and put them in a position to win by the time they were due-up

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:43 PM
they drafted all of them dude, and put them in a position to win by the time they were due-up

Yes, but the guy said the location is all that matters but Durant, WB, and Ibaka all resigned. It's not all about the location when you're winning. Winning is all that matters. Look at LAL. You think they are having fun losing? The location is great but bottom line is winning.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 03:52 PM
LeBron James left because the management did a horrible job in grabbing players. It was an unrealistic situation for him to play in.

Cleveland Cavailers were the most watched and nationally televised team on the NBA during their run... What are you talking about?

The area is terrible, we get it. When you're winning, it's fun.



Cleveland is a small market team and that certainly damages them. But can you tell me why OKC is doing so good? They are just as bad as Cleveland but why did Durant, WB, and Ibaka sign with them? Hmmm...

Ok I'm going to try and explain this to you one more time and then I'm done with you. Lebron left because there was no future in Cleveland. They weren't winning a title, no " good " free agent wanted to come there and play and who cares about Cleveland being the " most watched and nationally televised team on the NBA?" Whenever you have a top player and a winning team you will always have that.

Most players don't want to come to Cleveland, they want to play in big cities. It makes a big deal for winning, endorsements, culture, free agent potential ( players actually wanting to be there ), weather,etc. Cleveland will always get the second tier of free-agents or the players you will overpay for, like it or not.

BTW OKC is doing so good because Durant was drafted by the team and signed a huge contract, Westbrook was drafted by the team and signed a huge contract and Ibaka was drafted on the team as well and signed a large contract. None of these three major players were brought to the team as free agents. Their teams drafted well and developed their talent which Cleveland has failed to do. Hmmm...

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:56 PM
Ok I'm going to try and explain this to you one more time and then I'm done with you. Lebron left because there was no future in Cleveland. They weren't winning a title, no " good " free agent wanted to come there and play and who cares about Cleveland being the " most watched and nationally televised team on the NBA?" Whenever you have a top player and a winning team you will always have that.

Most players don't want to come to Cleveland, they want to play in big cities. It makes a big deal for winning, endorsements, culture, free agent potential ( players actually wanting to be there ), weather,etc. Cleveland will always get the second tier of free-agents or the players you will overpay for, like it or not.

BTW OKC is doing so good because Durant was drafted by the team and signed a huge contract, Westbrook was drafted by the team and signed a huge contract and Ibaka was drafted on the team as well and signed a large contract. None of these three major players were brought to the team as free agents. Their teams drafted well and developed their talent which Cleveland has failed to do. Hmmm...

What does RWB, Durant, and Ibaka not being traded to that team even prove? That doesn't even mean anything because they could've signed with LAL, Chicago, NYK, or any attractive location. So you're saying management has completely nothing to do with players signing to their team? I would never play for Cleveland over LAL but if Cleveland were winning and LAL were losing, I'd rather play for a winning team. What's fun about playing on a losing team?

Your post is partially correct but small market teams have had big signings and managed to win in sports history. The Cavs just didn't make an effort and Dan Gilbert never had a relationship with any of his players; including LeBron.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 04:04 PM
What does RWB, Durant, and Ibaka not being traded to that team even prove? That doesn't even mean anything because they could've signed with LAL, Chicago, NYK, or any attractive location. So you're saying management has completely nothing to do with players signing to their team? I would never play for Cleveland over LAL but if Cleveland were winning and LAL were losing, I'd rather play for a winning team. What's fun about playing on a losing team?

Your post is partially correct but small market teams have had big signings and managed to win in sports history. The Cavs just didn't make an effort and Dan Gilbert never had a relationship with any of his players; including LeBron.

Do you read anything you say??? You asked why OKC was doing good I just told you. Management can definitely have influence but if you really think a player would sign with Cleveland if they are winning over LA and all their culture, environment, history and potential to attract more people then you'll never get it.

Can you please name these " small market teams " that have had big signings and won anything recently ?

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:20 PM
Do you read anything you say??? You asked why OKC was doing good I just told you. Management can definitely have influence but if you really think a player would sign with Cleveland if they are winning over LA and all their culture, environment, history and potential to attract more people then you'll never get it.

Can you please name these " small market teams " that have had big signings and won anything recently ?

So first off it was location being the deciding factor. I mentioned OKC and now it has a lot to do with management as well? You just proved my case. I agreed that the location plays a huge part. To say the management isn't a huge deal makes no sense. A team with an owner who cares about winning will do whatever it takes to win because that means more money on their pockets. Dan Gilbert does not care. He never talked to LeBron about the direction of the team and in one case, Gilbert deeply regretted not having a relationship with James.

Small market teams like Steelers and Packers have won because the management did a great job providing their star players with talent.

You keep bringing up location but forget that Durant could've signed with a big market team. He chose OKC because the management of that team did a great job convincing them to stay. LeBron never had that type of management and that is why he decided to leave. If Wade and Bosh were in Cleveland winning rings, you think they'll break up and go to Miami? No. And that is where Miami's management came into play. Great location and great management are huge factors. Pat Riley didn't manage to get LeBron, Wade, and Bosh to sign just by saying "Miami has nice beaches." He carefully constructed a presentation that involved winning.

WITZ
02-17-2013, 05:08 PM
Yea I acknowledged the fact that they can't put all their eggs in one basket and sacrifice all their future assets and flexibility, but they need a mix of both. Can't sit around for 6 years waiting/hoping/praying these young guys all pan out while Kyrie is waisting away his prime. Also can't sacrifice your entire future for over the hill stars-turned-30+ role players. Its a fine line, but they gotta start at least trying to walk it. Not saying you trade Tristan Thompson for Antawn Jamison and waste cap on Mo Williams but you start to explore getting better NOW and not just sitting and waiting for draft picks to hopefully pan out.

Well said , I just think they are not going to make any big moves potentially messing up their cap space for 2014 just in case you know who decides to come back.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 05:49 PM
Yes, but the guy said the location is all that matters but Durant, WB, and Ibaka all resigned. It's not all about the location when you're winning. Winning is all that matters. Look at LAL. You think they are having fun losing? The location is great but bottom line is winning.

Players almost never leave after their rookie deal. Its the next one. Your OKC comparison is not valid is what I am saying, they are good because of their drafting, and that is it. Those players didn't come in free agency. Hell, they are so good at drafting they had to let a young star go in a SnT.

D-Leethal
02-17-2013, 05:53 PM
Players almost never leave after their rookie deal. Its the next one. Your OKC comparison is not valid is what I am saying, they are good because of their drafting, and that is it. Those players didn't come in free agency. Hell, they are so good at drafting they had to let a young star go in a SnT.

Yea, you never see players leave until their second 'max' deal. Not the first contract that we just saw Holiday/Jennings/Lawson/Curry sign.

RLundi
02-17-2013, 06:04 PM
I agree. I think no one else save for Paul is doing the things Kyrie is. Parker, Rondo and Westbrook have been solid but Irving has surpassed them in my opinion. I don't think this All-Star weekend has solidified or proven anything; it's just made more people aware of his game. We'll have to see next year when Rose is presumably healthy but as of now, I'd say the top PGs are:

1. CP3
2. Irving
3a. Westbrook
3b. Parker
4. Rondo
5a. Steph Curry
5b. Jrue Holiday

Hard to choose between the a's and the b's. And I didn't even mention names like Rose, Wall, Lawson, Nash or D-Will. All this just demonstrates that we have a stellar crop of point guards in today's game.

Bartlee23
02-17-2013, 06:19 PM
So first off it was location being the deciding factor. I mentioned OKC and now it has a lot to do with management as well? You just proved my case. I agreed that the location plays a huge part. To say the management isn't a huge deal makes no sense. A team with an owner who cares about winning will do whatever it takes to win because that means more money on their pockets. Dan Gilbert does not care. He never talked to LeBron about the direction of the team and in one case, Gilbert deeply regretted not having a relationship with James.

Small market teams like Steelers and Packers have won because the management did a great job providing their star players with talent.

You keep bringing up location but forget that Durant could've signed with a big market team. He chose OKC because the management of that team did a great job convincing them to stay. LeBron never had that type of management and that is why he decided to leave. If Wade and Bosh were in Cleveland winning rings, you think they'll break up and go to Miami? No. And that is where Miami's management came into play. Great location and great management are huge factors. Pat Riley didn't manage to get LeBron, Wade, and Bosh to sign just by saying "Miami has nice beaches." He carefully constructed a presentation that involved winning.

You obviously don't read anything I say or just hear what you want to. Yes location is always going to be a factor. Weather, players actually have families to care for, etc. ( 1st thing I said that you didn't read ) I said in my posts management CAN have an influence but it is definitely not the deciding factor. ( 2nd thing I said that you didn't read ) Durant could have chosen another team but by that time his team was on the rise with good draft picks and OKC could offer him the most money so he had really no reason to leave. Lebron left not because of management, it was because NO ONE DECENT WANTED TO GO TO CLEVELAND ( 3rd thing I said that you didn't read) Your point of great management and great location I already said. ( 4th thing I said that you didn't read)

The only thing that was " proved " in any of your responses is you really don't have a clue about what you are talking about, you are very upset no one wants to come play in Cleveland, you're upset Lebron left and my guess is you are very young. You could not tell me one team that had a " big free agent signing " that won anything. ( Green Bay and Pittsburgh are two of the most respected franchises in sports history that any player would love to play for ) I thought we were talking basketball but once again FAIL on your part. Respond all you want because I will not read or respond to anything you say. I proved everything to you whether you want to believe it or not.

KnicksorBust
02-17-2013, 06:23 PM
It shouldn't have taken a 3pt competition to prove it. :)

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 06:32 PM
It shouldn't have taken a 3pt competition to prove it. :)

that's when I knew Love was the best PF in the league last year......

sarcasm

Blitzbolt
02-17-2013, 08:02 PM
Ok Love is the best PF and Irving the second best PG to bad they will never make the playoffs.Being top 3 at your position won't get you into the playoffs.

But it looks like loser cav and Wolves fans are happy with that losers."You play to win the game!" Herm Edwards