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Redskins10
02-16-2013, 11:53 PM
Just how good was he? If he stayed healthy throughout his career what do you think his legacy would be?

Hawkeye15
02-16-2013, 11:55 PM
he was a phenom. Had he stayed healthy, he was maybe going to be the best player of the generation that he played in. Oh well..

Rndy
02-17-2013, 12:06 AM
Great player wasn't very efficient but was amazing when he had it going. Special talent who just couldn't stay healthy.

ironkobe
02-17-2013, 12:09 AM
he would be up their with kobe without the rings

SeoulBeatz
02-17-2013, 12:14 AM
One of the purest scorers I've ever seen.

Would have been a top 5 player for a decade, probably a lesser Kobe.

But yeah he was pretty much a prototypical shooting-guard for a good 4-5 years

Baller1
02-17-2013, 12:15 AM
Top 10 player all time if he could've stayed healthy and figured out how to win.

jon32
02-17-2013, 12:18 AM
Had he stayed healthy....and stayed on Toronto with Vince........it woulda been ridiculous

ACanadian
02-17-2013, 12:19 AM
If he stayed in Toronto he would have a ring, his decision, his fault, his garbage legacy.

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 12:21 AM
Amazing player. Too bad injuries brought the man down.

Catoblepas
02-17-2013, 12:23 AM
I loved watching him play when he was healthy. When you have a guy who can bring his team back from being down a ton, you usually watch the whole game.

I don't think he would have been on par with Lebron, but he definitely had the killer instict to have won and been known as one of the best offensive players if healthy.

LeperMessiah
02-17-2013, 12:24 AM
As stated by many, he was the next best thing.

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 12:24 AM
he was a phenom. Had he stayed healthy, he was maybe going to be the best player of the generation that he played in. Oh well..

Lol the same Tracy who never got passed the first round?

Phenom? Going a little overboard there

Kashmir13579
02-17-2013, 12:26 AM
Most dominant player in the NBA for a year or two.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 12:30 AM
Lol the same Tracy who never got passed the first round?

Phenom? Going a little overboard there

and you are underrating his talent big time. He was flat out better for a couple years than Kobe has ever been, and the only player in his generation that would have challenged him was Bron. But, I get it, Laker fans will never accept that.

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 12:39 AM
Lol the same Tracy who never got passed the first round?

Phenom? Going a little overboard there

and you are underrating his talent big time. He was flat out better for a couple years than Kobe has ever been, and the only player in his generation that would have challenged him was Bron. But, I get it, Laker fans will never accept that.

I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

jon32
02-17-2013, 12:40 AM
Thing I hate is his interview with Landsburg where he sais had he stayed with Toronto him and Vince would have a ring right now.....and that he regretted leaving as early as he did

jon32
02-17-2013, 12:40 AM
I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

apparently u dunno the meaning of phenom

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 12:44 AM
I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

apparently u dunno the meaning of phenom

Phemom = unbelievably great

Oh yes he was unbelievable great that he couldn't even pass the first round!

Llullz.

He was a great player but some are just overating him

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 12:45 AM
I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

I am calling him a phenom because of his skillset and pure dominance when he was healthy. Not sure what your definition is, but it obviously involves team success, which is always the worst way to rate an individual.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 12:48 AM
I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

A player can be an amazing out of this world player without it automatically equaling success.

Was T-Mac an out of this world talent? Yes.

That's all that really needs to be said whether or not he's a phenomenal player.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 12:49 AM
Phemom = unbelievably great

Oh yes he was unbelievable great that he couldn't even pass the first round!

Llullz.

He was a great player but some are just overating him

so no, you don't know what "phenom" means.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 12:49 AM
His prime is up there with Lebron and Kobe's prime.

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 12:56 AM
I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

I am calling him a phenom because of his skillset and pure dominance when he was healthy. Not sure what your definition is, but it obviously involves team success, which is always the worst way to rate an individual.

He never had a season where he shot 46% or higher from the field.. Pure dominance right.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:00 AM
He never had a season where he shot 46% or higher from the field.. Pure dominance right.

I'm sure the versatility made up for respectable FG%s.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:00 AM
Lol.. T-Mac is up there with LeBron and Kobe? In terms of what?

The way I look at it is T-Mac had 2-3 years that matched up with Kobe's best years.

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/99/77/9977cef89666931eb66ee8c72425e847.png

Never made it deep into the playoffs.. Had all the talent in the world but got injured and stopped caring.

A better question would be KD vs McGrady, which I think is going on a limb because Grady never put up KD numbers.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 01:03 AM
T-Mac < Kobe


nuff said. dude never was a winner.

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 01:03 AM
For being a phenom and such a dominate player he was a piss poor free throw shooter

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:05 AM
Lol.. T-Mac is up there with LeBron and Kobe? In terms of what?

The way I look at it is T-Mac had 2-3 years that matched up with Kobe's best years.

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/99/77/9977cef89666931eb66ee8c72425e847.png

Never made it deep into the playoffs.. Had all the talent in the world but got injured and stopped caring.

A better question would be KD vs McGrady, which I think is going on a limb because Grady never put up KD numbers.

You answered your own question.

I said his prime up up there with Kobe and Lebron.

To which you respond his prime 2-3 years are up there with Kobe's prime.

Slug3
02-17-2013, 01:06 AM
When I talk about him I think about that game where he has like 12 points in 38 seconds or whatever it was. That was just amazing.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:06 AM
For being a phenom and such a dominate player he was a piss poor free throw shooter

So were a lot of other dominant players.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:08 AM
You answered your own question.

I said his prime up up there with Kobe and Lebron.

To which you respond his prime 2-3 years are up there with Kobe's prime.

With Kobe... Not with LeBron. His prime was never on par with LeBron's.. Not to mention his horrific FG% and inability to lead his team to the playoffs.

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 01:10 AM
For being a phenom and such a dominate player he was a piss poor free throw shooter

So were a lot of other dominant players.

This thread is about Tracy McGrady, not on other dominate players. Please stay on topic Michael :)

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2013, 01:11 AM
Had he stayed healthy....and stayed on Toronto with Vince........it woulda been ridiculous

Ya and I hate thinking about that. Was annoyance watching him leave just to have his own spotlight.
Could you imagine the NBA if those 2 stayed together?

once Tracy started peaking it woulda been them vs the Lakers/Spurs.

then they are experienced and playing Boston in the ECF against pierce/allen/kg.

then, my favorite, would be to see them as Vets (assuming they were better when old then now, due to better careers) vs the younger Lebron and Wade.


god I would die to see the veteran Tmac, Carter vs the Heat's Lebron and Wade. Sure the heat would win tho still cool to see.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:16 AM
This thread is about Tracy McGrady, not on other dominate players. Please stay on topic Michael :)

Not sure if trolling or actual basketball knowledge.

You can't bring up arguments about 1 player then make double standards and say it doesn't apply to other players.

Also, is he getting an infraction for posting my real name?

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:18 AM
With Kobe... Not with LeBron. His prime was never on par with LeBron's.. Not to mention his horrific FG% and inability to lead his team to the playoffs.

Lebron tops Tracy's numbers but in their primes, they are basically in the same class. It's definately comparable, although Lebron does take the cake.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2013, 01:18 AM
and to the thread Tracy was phenominal.

put it this way. Watching Lebron and Durant score doesn't even phase me much after watching Tracy's ability to score. He was a Durant but flashy, better physique, smooth handles of a point guard. Just made scoring look so easy..

I think him, Iverson, and Carter are the 3 most underappreciated superstars the past 20 years. The guys are never seen before talents in their own respects and just because they never won a championship they don't get talked about as all-time greats. I've never been more excited watching anyone but those 3 play. Shaq, Kobe, Lebron bring that excitment dont get me wrong but they get the respect they deserve

If my team was down 15 with a few minutes to go I'd want one of those 3 over any current player honestly. Kobe's too told to take over as effectively now

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2013, 01:20 AM
Lebron tops Tracy's numbers but in their primes, they are basically in the same class. It's definately comparable, although Lebron does take the cake.

why does he take the cake? because that's the general basis.

Lebron's a better overall player tho, Tmac better scorer.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:21 AM
T-Mac's ability to score? His FG% is low as hell! When you're shooting a lot, obviously you'll score often. I really don't understand. Durant is a much better scorer than T-Mac. Which player you'd rather watch is another topic.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:24 AM
why does he take the cake? because that's the general basis.

Lebron's a better overall player tho, Tmac better scorer.

T-Mac was a notch lower than Lebron in terms of versatility. Lebron's scoring ability is also close to T-Mac's scoring ability.

Redskins10
02-17-2013, 01:25 AM
Man, T'mac's pull up is one of the best things I've ever seen.

If I had to compare primes within this past decade, I'd have to say Mcgrady's prime is right after Kobe's and LBJ's. Yes, better than both Wade and Durant. He basically willed ****** Houston and Orlando teams to playoff bids. He had some killer scoring performances (was there for his 62 in DC when he was in Orlando, can't remember the year).

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 01:25 AM
Its a team game, people. You need other great players on your team to win.

still1ballin
02-17-2013, 01:27 AM
Its a team game, people. You need other great players on your team to win.

And tmac didn't?

ManRam
02-17-2013, 01:29 AM
Its a team game, people. You need other great players on your team to win.

bruh, t-mac had grant hill the entire time he was in orlando. he played with great talent. kobe could've carried t-mac's magic teams to 6 rings.

wtf you talking about?

juwan howard too! he's an nba champ.

tyronn lue, AKA kobe stopper.

rod strickland: one mentioned in a wu-tang clan song

donnell harvey: related to steve.

shawn kemp!

mike miller: another NBA champion

Horace Grant: ANOTHER NBA champion

jacque vaughn: 2012-2013 COTY

john amaechi: first openly gay dude



lol t-mac sucks

Hawkeye15
02-17-2013, 01:32 AM
He never had a season where he shot 46% or higher from the field.. Pure dominance right.

that is your response? haha

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 01:35 AM
...

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 01:36 AM
bruh, t-mac had grant hill the entire time he was in orlando. he played with great talent. kobe could've carried t-mac's magic teams to 6 rings.

wtf you talking about?

juwan howard too! he's an nba champ.

tyronn lue, AKA kobe stopper.

rod strickland: one mentioned in a wu-tang clan song

donnell harvey: related to steve.

shawn kemp!

mike miller: another NBA champion

Horace Grant: ANOTHER NBA champion

jacque vaughn: 2012-2013 COTY

john amaechi: first openly gay dude



lol t-mac sucks

Can't tell if this is sarcastic or serious..

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:37 AM
...

If T-Mac was so good, him and Yao should've gotten past the second round easily. Kobe and LeBron would surely get past with Yao.

Let's not forget Battier, Mutumbo, Scola, Alston. Decent team. Yao was arguably the best center at that time.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:41 AM
If T-Mac was so good, him and Yao should've gotten past the second round easily. Kobe and LeBron would surely get past with Yao.

Let's not forget Battier, Mutumbo, Scola, Alston. Decent team. Yao was arguably the best center at that time.

He wasn't really in his prime anymore when he was with Yao.

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 01:44 AM
If T-Mac was so good, him and Yao should've gotten past the second round easily. Kobe and LeBron would surely get past with Yao.

Let's not forget Battier, Mutumbo, Scola, Alston. Decent team. Yao was arguably the best center at that time.

Alston is not a good point guard. Career assist average is 4.8

Mutombo was at the end of his career.

Scola was average.

Battier? meh.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 01:46 AM
don't ****ing slander skip to my lou, breh.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:46 AM
He wasn't really in his prime anymore when he was with Yao.

Well then when was his prime? Yao came into the league in 2002. McGrady just had two or three seasons of his prime days. He got injured but we can't give him credit for what he could've been.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:47 AM
Alston is not a good point guard. Career assist average is 4.8

Mutombo was at the end of his career.

Scola was average.

Battier? meh.

Yao, Alston, Battier, Mutumbo, and Scola beats Zydrunas, Mo Williams, and Wally Schzeriback.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:50 AM
Well then when was his prime? Yao came into the league in 2002. McGrady just had two or three seasons of his prime days. He got injured but we can't give him credit for what he could've been.

His prime was when he was playing in Orlando, where he played fairly well. McGrady was basically playing injured his whole time in Houston.

NJBASEBALL22
02-17-2013, 01:51 AM
With Kobe... Not with LeBron. His prime was never on par with LeBron's.. Not to mention his horrific FG% and inability to lead his team to the playoffs.

He actually had a great ability to lead mediocre and poor teams to the playoffs.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:51 AM
Yao, Alston, Battier, Mutumbo, and Scola beats Zydrunas, Mo Williams, and Wally Schzeriback.

Lebron had a teammate in Shaq who was a 4 time champion as the man and won x3 F.MVP.

Sadds The Gr8
02-17-2013, 01:53 AM
don't ****ing slander skip to my lou, breh.

loooool. everytime I see you post it's always serious

goku
02-17-2013, 01:55 AM
He wasn't really in his prime anymore when he was with Yao.

after the 04-05 season he started to decline

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:56 AM
after the 04-05 season he started to decline

So basically, he had 1 season in his semi-prime with Yao.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:56 AM
Lebron had a teammate in Shaq who was a 4 time champion as the man and won x3 F.MVP.

Man, really? You're comparing a 38 year old Shaq with a prime Yao.. Makes no sense. McGrady's prime lasted for 2 years and he had a really good team in Orlando. I gave him dues by saying his prime days were of Kobe's but not close to LeBron's prime.

soundjunkies2
02-17-2013, 01:56 AM
Great player, probably the best player in the NBA during his prime. It's unfortunate he had so many injuries.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-17-2013, 01:57 AM
Man, really? You're comparing a 38 year old Shaq with a prime Yao.. Makes no sense. McGrady's prime lasted for 2 years and he had a really good team in Orlando. I gave him dues by saying his prime days were of Kobe's but not close to LeBron's prime.

His primes are comparable to Lebron's. Lebron is obviously better, but it's still comparable. It's not like it's completely a class below Lebron's.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:58 AM
His primes are comparable to Lebron's. Lebron is obviously better, but it's still comparable. It's not like it's completely a class below Lebron's.

You can compare them with Kobe's and probably KD. LeBron is on another level right now. T-Mac could pass, rebound, and score but never at the efficiency and pace that LeBron is doing it. LeBron just hit his prime this year too.

NJBASEBALL22
02-17-2013, 02:15 AM
say what you will (although I don't think TMac was ever in LBJ's class)... but TMac really dominated the early 2000's, like he rivaled Kobe as the best wing in the game. 27/6/6 is nothing to complain about for a 7 year stretch. From 00/01-04/05, it is really a toss up between Kobe and TMac... and Kobe's numbers are somewhat boosted from playing with Shaq.

From 00/01-04/05 in the playoffs, Mac avg. 31/7/6 with a PER of 27. Dropping 40 twice and taking the eventual championship Piston's to 7 with the second best player being a 21 year old Drew Gooden. Oh, he also had Darrrell Armstrong as the 3rd best player. People tend to rewrite history and say he had good teammates in Grant Hill... in reality, his best teammate he played in the playoffs with was Pat Garrity. Mike Miller wasn't decent yet, he didn't really play with one-way Vince, Oakley was too old. Deke and Jon Barry were too old too. Armstrong was a 9/4 PG. 1 full season with Yao where all of the role-players shat the bed in the opening series.

And for his efficiency, you won't find a guy who controlled/dominated the ball so much on offense with so few turnovers. His PER from 00/01-04/05 is better than Kobe's.

NJBASEBALL22
02-17-2013, 02:26 AM
You can compare them with Kobe's and probably KD. LeBron is on another level right now. T-Mac could pass, rebound, and score but never at the efficiency and pace that LeBron is doing it. LeBron just hit his prime this year too.

I agree with what you said except for the Bolded... Lebron has def been in his prime and is closer to his way down. He has 10 full seasons in the NBA already... it just bothers me when ppl say that. Not to mention his physical style of play and the fact that he relies so much on his strength/speed to get to the hole.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:31 AM
I agree with what you said except for the Bolded... Lebron has def been in his prime and is closer to his way down. He has 10 full seasons in the NBA already... it just bothers me when ppl say that. Not to mention his physical style of play and the fact that he relies so much on his strength/speed to get to the hole.

Prime means their best yet. LeBron just hit his best yet. Also, most NBA players hit their peak at 26-30. Kobe did as well.

Redskins10
02-17-2013, 02:35 AM
Man, really? You're comparing a 38 year old Shaq with a prime Yao.. Makes no sense. McGrady's prime lasted for 2 years and he had a really good team in Orlando. I gave him dues by saying his prime days were of Kobe's but not close to LeBron's prime.

Mcgrady had a good team in Orlando? LOL what? The team that started off 0-19 in 2002? The team that need T-mac to average 32 just to stay in games? The team that blew a 3-1 lead against Detroit despite an amazing series from Mcgrady? I can't even fathom the fact that you think a team with Gordon Girecek as the second option is good.

And Mcgrady was still in his prime in Houston, hell he lead a YAO-less Houston team to 23 straight victories in 2008. Statistically, Mcgrady is one of the best playoff performers of all time. Just look at his 2005 series with Dallas, 2007 and 2008 series' with Utah. Mcgrady couldn't advance with that team because he essentially was the team. Yao couldn't stay on the floor and the rest of the team was mediocre at best.

SeoulBeatz
02-17-2013, 02:38 AM
Lol the same Tracy who never got passed the first round?

Phenom? Going a little overboard there

he had playoff averages of 27, 7 and 6, there's only so much the guy could do.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:39 AM
Mcgrady had a good team in Orlando? LOL what? The team that started off 0-19 in 2002? The team that need T-mac to average 32 just to stay in games? The team that blew a 3-1 lead against Detroit despite an amazing series from Mcgrady? I can't even fathom the fact that you think a team with Gordon Girecek as the second option is good.

And Mcgrady was still in his prime in Houston, hell he lead a YAO-less Houston team to 23 straight victories in 2008. Statistically, Mcgrady is one of the best playoff performers of all time. Just look at his 2005 series with Dallas, 2007 and 2008 series' with Utah. Mcgrady couldn't advance with that team because he essentially was the team. Yao couldn't stay on the floor and the rest of the team was mediocre at best.

Because 5 guys who scored double digits on the team is a bad roster? Lol.. you don't even know the team man.
Grant Hill, Mike Miller, and Gooden were not scrubs. 16 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG... Man, you really have no idea.

naps
02-17-2013, 03:10 AM
why does he take the cake? because that's the general basis.

Lebron's a better overall player tho, Tmac better scorer.


Prove it. (Yes, I have seen T-Mac's prime).

effen5
02-17-2013, 03:17 AM
Tmac was a freak offensively, his ability to score was just ridiculous. It's too bad he got dealt with a bad team in Orlando and then he was passed his prime in Houston. If he just had the chance to stay healthy, who knows what kind of impact he would have made in the last decade.

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 03:22 AM
Yao, Alston, Battier, Mutumbo, and Scola beats Zydrunas, Mo Williams, and Wally Schzeriback.

In name recognition yes but otherwise, no.

Redskins10
02-17-2013, 03:35 AM
Because 5 guys who scored double digits on the team is a bad roster? Lol.. you don't even know the team man.
Grant Hill, Mike Miller, and Gooden were not scrubs. 16 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG... Man, you really have no idea.

Grant Hill couldnt even stay on the floor dude. Miller was a rookie and Gooden was average at best. Darrell Armstrong was the starting pg ffs. That magic team was widely regarded as the worst team in the league.

Chronz
02-17-2013, 03:41 AM
Tmac was highly efficient offensively, people just dont know it because they think FG% is all that matters when it comes to efficiency, disregarding his microscopic turnover rate and the fact that the guy dominated the most offensively anemic era of the game, the era after zones were legalized but before the handchecking rules came about to help perimeter players.

Chronz
02-17-2013, 03:42 AM
Because 5 guys who scored double digits on the team is a bad roster? Lol.. you don't even know the team man.
Grant Hill, Mike Miller, and Gooden were not scrubs. 16 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG... Man, you really have no idea.

Why are you mentioning Grant Hill and then attempting to say he doesn't know the team?

Alayla
02-17-2013, 04:16 AM
Better than people remember thats for sure his offensive arnsel was lethal he had good size and he was a freak althele

Belive it or not he was an awesome defender at his peak as well

Auseranami
02-17-2013, 05:53 AM
Having seen nearly every game from 06-08 while he was in Houston, I can honestly say that even though he was on the decline, he was still an amazing player. When they made the playoffs, he elevated his game while nearly everyone else on the team played worse. T-Mac WAS that team. Just because he never had the team success that others have had, he gets casted aside. He was a great player. Could've been at least a top 15 player had he stayed healthy. Go watch the vid of him scoring 13 in 33 seconds. If it doesn't give you goosebumps, then I have to question your basketball fandom.

DumDum
02-17-2013, 05:57 AM
Better than kobe when healthy . Had less Talent around him never had team Organization that back him up. Could play five on one and actually win games also very skilled passer. Great court vision for a player his size. Basically a KD who can defend the post and was a real leader and a more Clutch lebron. Also more efficient then kobe

DumDum
02-17-2013, 06:00 AM
Everything I just posted and 13 in 33 seconds future nba and cba hall of Framer

AnthonyTyrael
02-17-2013, 09:00 AM
Miller scored 8 points in less than 9 secs. So who's the goat? ;)

Honestly. It's not like thigns like that did not happen before in the NBA. his 13 points in 33 seconds are always brought up and it is AWESOME. Him and Dirk duelling both in a game in in which both went for 48 points at least was so too. I looked it up it was: Nowitzki 53 pts, 16 reb, T-Mac 48 pts,9 reb,9... great game. Great guys.

T-Mac was great. He was more than just a scorer but as mentioned before by others he wasn't that well overall compared to other greats in this discussion and he only had arguable 6-7 great years. His first years with Vince and those years when he struggled with his health, SADLY, ruined his career and how I'm judging it. His early years were worse than Kobes, for which he gets criticized a lot in restrospective (as well as Shaq winning all those final MVPs and the amount of shots's he's taking).

Also.... LeBron not being able to score as much as Tracy in his prime? Who said that? Funny... unleash Bron offensively and you'll see the outcome.

And who brought up Yao Ming when it was about winning games? He was tall, he was injured way too often too but even when he was healthy he was overrated big time. All star selections are a joke, were all aware of it but come on... he was way better than Rik Smits, Muresan and others that tall (except for Manute defensively) sure but he wasn't that monster of a player, just one of the better ones due to height advantages and the talent he had. He was a damn good shooter at his seize and decent rebounder as well but again, about shooting he's only next to Duncan, KG, Dirk and KLove just to name a few more but less dominant overall. However, that's not bad company, I know but still Ming is not the holy cow. So isn't Tracy.

DumDum
02-17-2013, 09:48 AM
Miller scored 8 points in less than 9 secs. So who's the goat? ;)

Honestly. It's not like thigns like that did not happen before in the NBA. his 13 points in 33 seconds are always brought up and it is AWESOME. Him and Dirk duelling both in a game in in which both went for 48 points at least was so too. I looked it up it was: Nowitzki 53 pts, 16 reb, T-Mac 48 pts,9 reb,9... great game. Great guys.

T-Mac was great. He was more than just a scorer but as mentioned before by others he wasn't that well overall compared to other greats in this discussion and he only had arguable 6-7 great years. His first years with Vince and those years when he struggled with his health, SADLY, ruined his career and how I'm judging it. His early years were worse than Kobes, for which he gets criticized a lot in restrospective (as well as Shaq winning all those final MVPs and the amount of shots's he's taking).

Also.... LeBron not being able to score as much as Tracy in his prime? Who said that? Funny... unleash Bron offensively and you'll see the outcome.

And who brought up Yao Ming when it was about winning games? He was tall, he was injured way too often too but even when he was healthy he was overrated big time. All star selections are a joke, were all aware of it but come on... he was way better than Rik Smits, Muresan and others that tall (except for Manute defensively) sure but he wasn't that monster of a player, just one of the better ones due to height advantages and the talent he had. He was a damn good shooter at his seize and decent rebounder as well but again, about shooting he's only next to Duncan, KG, Dirk and KLove just to name a few more but less dominant overall. However, that's not bad company, I know but still Ming is not the holy cow. So isn't Tracy.

his numbers were better then kobes early on and he actually played his first four years of his career

NJBASEBALL22
02-17-2013, 04:19 PM
Because 5 guys who scored double digits on the team is a bad roster? Lol.. you don't even know the team man.
Grant Hill, Mike Miller, and Gooden were not scrubs. 16 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG... Man, you really have no idea.

You are crazy man.

00/01 playoffs vs. Bucks
TMac, Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, and Mike Miller vs. Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell, Tim Thomas, and Ervin Johnson (not magic but a rebounder, something the Magic really needed, hence TMac avg 8 boards a game)

01/02 playoffs vs. Hornets
TMac, Darrell Armstrong, Troy Hudson, Pat Garrity vs. Baron Davis, David Welsey and a DEEP front court of John Lynch, Elden Campbell, PJ Brown and Jamall Magloire
Mike Miller rarely played and Grant Hill didn't play.

02/03 playoffs vs. Pistons
TMac, Gooden, Giricek, and Armstrong vs. Chauncey, Rip, Ben Wallace, and Tyshaun Prince
Hill and Miller didn't play at all.

04/05 playoffs vs. Mavs
TMac, Yao, Mike James, Jon Barry (35 years old), Sura, Deke (38 years old) vs. Dirk, Terry, Stack, Josh Howard, Mike Finley.

06/07 Playoffs vs. Jazz
TMac, Yao, Rafer Alston (33% FG), Battier vs. Boozer, AK47, Deron Williams, Memhet Okur, Fisher

Not once did he have the better TEAM.

sep11ie
02-17-2013, 04:25 PM
He woulda been ****ed in Washington.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:32 PM
You are crazy man.

00/01 playoffs vs. Bucks
TMac, Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, and Mike Miller vs. Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell, Tim Thomas, and Ervin Johnson (not magic but a rebounder, something the Magic really needed, hence TMac avg 8 boards a game)

01/02 playoffs vs. Hornets
TMac, Darrell Armstrong, Troy Hudson, Pat Garrity vs. Baron Davis, David Welsey and a DEEP front court of John Lynch, Elden Campbell, PJ Brown and Jamall Magloire
Mike Miller rarely played and Grant Hill didn't play.

02/03 playoffs vs. Pistons
TMac, Gooden, Giricek, and Armstrong vs. Chauncey, Rip, Ben Wallace, and Tyshaun Prince
Hill and Miller didn't play at all.

04/05 playoffs vs. Mavs
TMac, Yao, Mike James, Jon Barry (35 years old), Sura, Deke (38 years old) vs. Dirk, Terry, Stack, Josh Howard, Mike Finley.

06/07 Playoffs vs. Jazz
TMac, Yao, Rafer Alston (33% FG), Battier vs. Boozer, AK47, Deron Williams, Memhet Okur, Fisher

Not once did he have the better TEAM.

I see 4/5 teams that have been better than LeBron's Cleveland team. Yao Ming and James beats any team James ever had.

goku
02-17-2013, 04:51 PM
So basically, he had 1 season in his semi-prime with Yao.

thats about right

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:55 PM
Okay, so was he better than Durant?

Lakerhead4ever
02-17-2013, 05:02 PM
Lol at ppl say he "could have" been better than Kobe. Key word "could". That's just like me saying I "could" have won the lotto. We all have a chance to be great. But most just can't get to that level. Tmac was a very good player. But to compare him to kobe is not fair to Kobe. Kobe's career is still being calculated while tmacs ended in 06.

Also where's was tmac will to win? And plz ppl give me something more than the 13 pts in 33 secs. Is that all he has done? Lol

Tmac a very good player who never who never done ****. Sounds more like kd of you ask me.

rockets-fan
02-17-2013, 05:08 PM
His prime was when he was playing in Orlando, where he played fairly well. McGrady was basically playing injured his whole time in Houston.

Your really comparing that smh....


Lebron and that crap team had to get through the weak East, Tmac and that team had to get through the DOMINATE west, because back then the West was too good. Lebron and that team would not make it to the finals if they were in the west, just my opinion tho

KnicksorBust
02-17-2013, 05:09 PM
Here's my recap of his success. It's really pretty staggering how he carried those putrid rosters in Orlando the playoffs. Before his career was ravaged by injuries he really was a one man offensive monster.

In 2001 Tracy McGrady had his breakout season as his scoring average rose from 15.4 ppg to 26.8ppg while averaging 4.6apg and 7.5 rpg. Let's take a quick look at his teammates on that Orlando Magic team. These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Mike Miller
John Amaechi
Pat Garrity
Michael Doleac
Monty Williams
and Don Reid
The record of that flaming pile of crap? 43-39. Imagine if Grant Hill had been healthy for more than 4 games...In the playoffs, McGrady averages 34-7-8 with a TS% of 48.3% in a losing effort to the the Milwaukee Bucks led by a trio of Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell.


In 2002, McGrady continues to excel but is still saddled with little to no help
These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
(A way past his prime 36 year old) Horace Grant
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller
Troy Hudson
Monty Williams
Patrick Ewing's corpse playing less than 14mpg
and Don Reid
With no other teammate playing even close to an all-star level... the Magic finish 44-38. McGrady averages 31-6-5 with a TS% of 55.3% in a losing effort to the Hornets.

In 2003, McGrady has a regular season that is immortal in the eyes of many. He was first in the NBA in PER, Usage, Offensive Win Shares, 3rd in overall win shares, and his turnover percentage was 6th. Considering he handled the ball a lot more frequently and created a lot more assists than anyone ahead of him in the top 5 (purely shooters like Peja and Reggie), this is a remarkable statistic that gets overloooked. His advance statistics that season compare well with Jordan's best years. Yet let's take a look and see if the Magic FO finally got him some help. Most minutes played by anyone not named McGrady:

Darrell Armstrong
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller (their 3rd best player was injured for 32 games)
Shawn Kemp (33 year old Kemp was averaging a robust 7-6 on 41.8% fg... 46.8% ts)
Jaqcue Vaughn
Andrew DeClercq
Jeryl Sasser actually played over 1,000 minutes.

Names of players that actually STARTED at least one game for them that season: Pat Burke (8), Steven Hunter (5), Jeryl Sasser (4), Olumide Oyedeji (3), Chris Whitney (1) , Ryan Humphrey (1)

Besides McGrady, Pat Garrity was the only played that season to average over 10ppg and start at least 40 games for the Magic that season. 10.7 ppg in 53 starts. Considering the injuries to Grant Hill (still) and Mike Milller, this is the ugliest roster we've seen yet. Their record: 42-40. You think if you take McGrady off that team they are even going to sniff 25 wins? In the playoffs, McGrady averaged 32-7-5 with a TS% of 56.1%(!) as they lost in 7 games to the Pistons team that we are all familiar with... Rip, Chauncey, Ben Wallace, Prince, etc. How he could take that series to 7 games is beyond me.

In 2004, they stunk. McGrady played in 67 games and along with some familiar names they added a past his prime Juwan Howard, a young Drew Gooden, other playes like Lue, Bogans, Stevenson. They went 21-61 and for the first time were in the lottery in a McGrady season. Then the Magic decided to trade McGrady to the Rockets for Steve Francis. Magically their record the next season of 2005 was 36-46. Good thing they got rid of McGrady! No. The rosters between those two seasons were drastically different. They got the #1 overall pick in the draft and traded a future 1st to get the 20th player selected. They went from a lineup Juwan Howard/McGrady/Gooden/Lue/Bogans etc. to Francis / Dwight Howard / Grant Hill (finally healthy) / Hedo Turkoglu / Jameer Nelson. It's a completely different roster. Steve Francis didn't take Keith Bogans to 36 wins. That's for damn sure. Even after the roster turnover, they still didn't become a winning franchise again until 2008, four years AFTER trading McGrady.

Now it's 2005 and Tracy McGrady has joined Yao Ming in Houston. They go from a 45 win team to a 51-31 team in T-Mac's first season. McGrady and Yao team with Bob Sura, David Wesley, Juwan Howard, Jon Barry, and Dikembe Mutombo to take on a 58 win Mavericks team that features Dirk, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Finley, and Stackhouse. They lose in 7 games with Yao playing 60 less minutes that series than David Wesley due to foul trouble. McGrady plays 43mpg and averages 31-7-7 with a TS% of 55.6%(!) in a losing effort.

In 2006 McGrady career finally began a downward slope as injuries began to slow him down.

In my opinion, if he stayed healthy he would have been a top 10 SG... near Drexler but still behind MJ-Kobe-West-Wade-etc.

LOOTERX9
02-17-2013, 05:19 PM
would have loved to see t mac coach by phil jackson and used in the triangle offense

ManRam
02-17-2013, 05:22 PM
Also where's was tmac will to win? And plz ppl give me something more than the 13 pts in 33 secs. Is that all he has done? Lol

It was pretty ****ing evident when he was playing his *** of for 40 minutes a game for some terrible Orlando teams. He sacrificed his body, and I feel his career, playing his heart out on a team that wasn't gonna win regardless of what he did. I'll forever love T-Mac because of that. He made rooting for a bad team easier because he came to play every single night.

He played his prime with Grant Hill hurt and a bunch of garbage around him. That's a shame.

kubernetes
02-17-2013, 05:34 PM
I think a lot of the critics here were too young to see T-Mac in his prime. He was dominant, on another level. The fact that we're even having this conversation shows that many many people who watched him believe that.

DaVille
02-17-2013, 05:37 PM
As basketball fan I feel robbed of greatness, his prime came and left. He was most complete offensive player of his generation.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 05:38 PM
Tmac had 2-3 seasons where he was scary good. He was a top 3 player in the NBA for 2-3 years.

OaklandsFinest
02-17-2013, 05:43 PM
I am sorry, but you are overating him big time! How can you call a player a "phenom" when he has never played in the second round!? And it's not like be had no help because he had good teammates

Tracy McGrady's teams were worse than anything Kobe played with. T-Mac was my favorite player alongside Kevin Garnett of that generation and was flat out a better player than Kobe, period end of discussion.

Chronz
02-17-2013, 05:44 PM
I see 4/5 teams that have been better than LeBron's Cleveland team. Yao Ming and James beats any team James ever had.
Not in Orlando and definitely not his first year or 2 in Houston. After that he ceased to be the same Tmac who was thought of in that light.

Chronz
02-17-2013, 05:53 PM
As basketball fan I feel robbed of greatness, his prime came and left. He was most complete offensive player of his generation.
I see it like this. Imagine if you only got to see Kobe for those 3 years where he either missed the playoffs or never advanced beyond round 1. Only instead injuries derail a promising young career, he adapts as best he can to sustain a decent level of play, but he was nothing like his peak level.

Tmac was the best swing at one point in time IMO. Still, even if I were to concede Kobe's superiority, why hold Tmac to a higher standard than an allegedly superior player? Why does he get so much hate for his teams ultimate success?

Kashmir13579
02-17-2013, 07:38 PM
Tmac was the best swing at one point in time IMO. Still, even if I were to concede Kobe's superiority, why hold Tmac to a higher standard than an allegedly superior player? Why does he get so much hate for his teams ultimate success?

Great point. I love how you didn't concede to Kobe's superiority.

Redskins10
02-17-2013, 09:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bq7qfaGOhY

4milesperday
02-17-2013, 09:48 PM
T-Mac was never a team player. He can drop 50 on you but he never made his teammates better.

DumDum
02-17-2013, 10:05 PM
T-Mac was never a team player. He can drop 50 on you but he never made his teammates better.

not his problem if the other four guys around are just watching him play he still won games tsking less then 30 shots

DumDum
02-17-2013, 10:06 PM
T-Mac was never a team player. He can drop 50 on you but he never made his teammates better.

not his problem if the other four guys around are just watching him play he still won games taking less then 30 shots

NJBASEBALL22
02-18-2013, 02:03 AM
T-Mac was never a team player. He can drop 50 on you but he never made his teammates better.

hehe, you're funny.

Averaged 5.5 assists a game passing to the likes of Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, Gordon Gericek, Ty Lue, Bob Sura, David Wesley, a young Drew Gooden, a injured Grant Hill, a young and injured Mike Miller and Yao for a healthy season.

NJBASEBALL22
02-18-2013, 02:13 AM
The one season Kobe played without another star, his team finished with 34 wins in 04/05. He played with Caron Bulter, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihms and Chucky Atkins. And that rivals some of the teams TMac played with... Odom and Bulter were pretty good in there day.

sventhedog
02-18-2013, 04:16 AM
orlando would have had a very good team. consistently fighting in the playoffs but i'm not sure if he would've won a title.
their chance was when tim duncan became a free agent but unfortunately didn't leave san antonio. and when yao was still healthy. i doubt they would beat the lakers or spurs though.

ROY 2 MVP Braun
02-18-2013, 05:03 AM
check my sig lmao how can you compare the 2? really tmacs prime was great as a player lebrons is better but saying tmac had a better team and should have made it to the 2nd round is redic!!!!

FOBolous
02-18-2013, 05:05 AM
Kobe Bryant/Lebron James/Kevin Durant good







then he got injured and became a whinny little b

ROY 2 MVP Braun
02-18-2013, 05:05 AM
The one season Kobe played without another star, his team finished with 34 wins in 04/05. He played with Caron Bulter, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihms and Chucky Atkins. And that rivals some of the teams TMac played with... Odom and Bulter were pretty good in there day.

right this is what im saying!

ThuglifeJ
02-18-2013, 05:06 AM
Im gonna go out on a limb and say Tmac is top 3 most complete offensive G/F the league's ever had, during that 3 year prime span he had.

On offense he could do everything Jordan could do, plus shoot 3s, plus 2 inches, plus dunking ability similiar to Vince's, plus as good of handles as Kobe had.

he had footwork, post up, step backs, fades, drifters, leaners, crossovers, fancy layups, spins, dunks, etc ,etc. The only thing you could say he lacked from being perfect offensively was mass (was always skinny) and speed (was never as quick as Kobe, Lebron, Wade).


and to those knocking his FG%, should already be wise enough to realize his team required the max amount of shots. I can bet you Durant would struggle to be as efficient as he is if he were on a bottom-feeder team..

I'm so sick of rings having the most weight on any argument. Basketball is a team sport, like someone said in here. It cannot be done alone never has never will. That's a fact it's never been done alone, yet we continue to throw out in arguments "he never won" even if his supporting cast is clearly incapable of providing a enough punch to win anything..

ThuglifeJ
02-18-2013, 05:19 AM
I'll never understand it. I'm pretty positive that when Pierce and Kobe didn't have their help they got nowhere.

The only one who got anywhere "alone" was AI and Lebron..in a weak eastern conference.

where's them winshares advanced stats guys.. im sure itl show Tmac with 99% responsible for each win they had..factor that in with that they got to the playoffs at all. Vs a Pierce on a stacked Celtics team, winning 15 or so more games, but responsible for how much of the win? if you catch what I'm saying

ThaDubs
02-18-2013, 05:23 AM
T-Mac definitely one of my favorites of all time. Right up there just below Kobe I'd say for best in his gen.

AIRMAR72
02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
T-Mac definitely one of my favorites of all time. Right up there just below Kobe I'd say for best in his gen. he was better than kobe,wade and bron and he was clutch with a smooth release on his pull-up jumpshot the only player I saw to throw off the backboard and reverse dunk in traffic

zn23
02-18-2013, 04:20 PM
In His prime, he was the best shooting guard in the game easily. I think only LBJ had a season better than T-macs 02-03 campaign.

AIRMAR72
02-18-2013, 04:20 PM
im gonna go out on a limb and say tmac is top 3 most complete offensive g/f the league's ever had, during that 3 year prime span he had.

On offense he could do everything jordan could do, plus shoot 3s, plus 2 inches, plus dunking ability similiar to vince's, plus as good of handles as kobe had.

He had footwork, post up, step backs, fades, drifters, leaners, crossovers, fancy layups, spins, dunks, etc ,etc. The only thing you could say he lacked from being perfect offensively was mass (was always skinny) and speed (was never as quick as kobe, lebron, wade).


And to those knocking his fg%, should already be wise enough to realize his team required the max amount of shots. I can bet you durant would struggle to be as efficient as he is if he were on a bottom-feeder team..

I'm so sick of rings having the most weight on any argument. Basketball is a team sport, like someone said in here. It cannot be done alone never has never will. That's a fact it's never been done alone, yet we continue to throw out in arguments "he never won" even if his supporting cast is clearly incapable of providing a enough punch to win anything..true

asandhu23
02-18-2013, 04:31 PM
At the end of the game, a team has to lose. Tracy fought his *** off but the better teams won. It is as simple as that.

NJBASEBALL22
02-19-2013, 02:04 AM
So the only two complaints that people are making about TMac's game are:
1. Not making it out of the first round
2. Shooting efficiency.

Number one has been debunked enough already. Tmac's teams were lucky to get into the playoffs at all, let alone push some great teams.

His shooting efficiency is being a bit overblown too. Obviously it wasn't great but during his prime (last season in TOR to first year in HOU), it was manageable. It was .445% fg, .35% 3fg, .532% True Shooting, and .480 eFG. Those numbers are comparable with Kobe's. But now take into account, Tmac's usage rates compared to his turnover rates. For someone that handled the ball as much as him (every possession). He was at 2.5 turnovers per game for his prime, that is insane. His PER is off of the chart too during his prime for a wing, I would assume some is due to the TO to Usage rate.

Chronz
02-19-2013, 02:34 AM
So the only two complaints that people are making about TMac's game are:
1. Not making it out of the first round
2. Shooting efficiency.

Number one has been debunked enough already. Tmac's teams were lucky to get into the playoffs at all, let alone push some great teams.

His shooting efficiency is being a bit overblown too. Obviously it wasn't great but during his prime (last season in TOR to first year in HOU), it was manageable. It was .445% fg, .35% 3fg, .532% True Shooting, and .480 eFG. Those numbers are comparable with Kobe's. But now take into account, Tmac's usage rates compared to his turnover rates. For someone that handled the ball as much as him (every possession). He was at 2.5 turnovers per game for his prime, that is insane. His PER is off of the chart too during his prime for a wing, I would assume some is due to the TO to Usage rate.
Tmac's vision and ball handling was what separated him from everyone at his position. EVERYONE. It might be my bias, but I honestly felt Tmac was a better passer than Bron, if he had the talent around him to defer and not focus on scoring, I feel he would have proven it. Too bad Ill never know and will never win that argument.

kvrnm
02-19-2013, 02:54 AM
bruh, t-mac had grant hill the entire time he was in orlando. he played with great talent. kobe could've carried t-mac's magic teams to 6 rings.

wtf you talking about?

juwan howard too! he's an nba champ.

tyronn lue, AKA kobe stopper.

rod strickland: one mentioned in a wu-tang clan song

donnell harvey: related to steve.

shawn kemp!

mike miller: another NBA champion

Horace Grant: ANOTHER NBA champion

jacque vaughn: 2012-2013 COTY

john amaechi: first openly gay dude



lol t-mac sucks

lol just this entire post... LOL...

jerellh528
02-19-2013, 06:03 AM
2nd best wing behind kobe, pretty much a kd type player

FlakeyFool
02-19-2013, 07:40 AM
Mike James good

Oldmantrash
02-19-2013, 08:49 AM
As talented as anyone, but there is more to being an all time great.
He didn't have that desire to win that Lebron, and Kobe has.
Wasn't as strong physically, or mentally as the greats, to ever be one.

R. Johnson#3
02-19-2013, 09:03 AM
I remember the chants of "Come back T-Mac" he didn't listen though.

JiffyMix88
02-19-2013, 09:50 AM
People on here just get infatuated with certain players(maybe because it's their best player on their favorite team or they just hate that their favorite player isn't mentioned when other people are discussing about another player) and they end up missing out on other players greatness and really just lose out on really appreciating some of these players, which is sad.

T-Mac was better than Kobe IMO in the early 2000s. Kobe was very forunate to have played with Shaq early in his career or we would have seen alot more of 05'-07' Kobe(or the T-Mac syndrome as I like to call it). T-Mac was just unforunate Grant Hill(who was also in his prime when he signed with Orlando) wasn't ever able to contribute because of the injuries.

It's a shame people didn't get to appreciate what T-Mac did. I wasn't a Magic fan but have been in Orlando all my life and as much as I hated the Magic(Bulls fan) I was lucky enough to get to watch T-Mac play lights out every Magic game played.

JWO35
02-19-2013, 10:59 AM
He's the Ken Griffey Jr. of the nba imo... He could have gone down in history as one of the greatest of all time if it wasn't for his injuries & sucky teams.

I remember going to a playoff game in '03 when McGrady played against the Pistons, I was only a kid but I remember watching in awe of what he was doing on the court.

NJBASEBALL22
02-19-2013, 12:29 PM
As talented as anyone, but there is more to being an all time great.
He didn't have that desire to win that Lebron, and Kobe has.
Wasn't as strong physically, or mentally as the greats, to ever be one.

This is just an ignorant statement.

The guy was drafted out of high school at the age of 18 and had to move to a different country. Not a huge deal, thats what he signed up for right. But also had a coach that openly detested Isiah picking him. His coach even went as far to say that TMac would be out of the league by the All Star break (something along those lines). Obviously, he had to endure that for his first 2 seasons. Think about that... you are the star of every team you ever played on, every college in the nation wanted you to lead their program and then this nit-wit of a coach refused to play you and tells you that you don't deserve to be in the league. Talk about the mental toughness to just push through that.

That doesn't go into his dedication to training and improvement. I mean maybe you aren't a real basketball fan and just jump on the "He never made it past the first round, he must not be a winner" bandwagon that is absolutely moronic. I don't blame you if you are, because a lot of ppl do. Or maybe you are just young and didn't watch him progress. Anyway, real basketball fans that watched and know the game saw his improvement. Everyone talks about Bron adding a post game in the off season or KD taking 500 shoots from every area on the floor. Apparently, if you listen to the accounts of teammates, TMac was the same way. It wasn't a lack of commitment that did him in. When he came into the league, he had no post game and couldn't take ppl left off of the dribble. He improved so much by his third year, coaches around the league wanted to force him right, and send a double at him in the post.

TMac didn't milk injuries either, like some tend to think he did. We all know his knee problems with Houston, but in Orlando, he battled a bad back almost from day one. He never asked out. He would have trainers working on him on the sidelines and go back in... because he was the team and he gave the team a fighting chance against anyone.

Most importantly, in his prime, TMac never really had a BAD game. He was so versatile (like J. Kidd) that if his shot wasn't falling, he could still do other things... pass, rebound, get to the foul line, take his man down low.

JordansBulls
03-04-2013, 10:31 PM
This guy would be in the mix today with Durant as the 2nd best player in the league.

Becks2307
03-04-2013, 10:33 PM
I think because of his versatility he would have been a little above durant.

Verbal Christ
03-04-2013, 11:25 PM
if im not mistaken has one of the highest scoring averages in playoff history. as a rocket fan i feel bad for him. that dude gave his soul, and was rewarded with a supporting cast of scrubs and geezers. ive argued that the effort he had to expend carrying those god awful teams to respectability probably led to his premature demise. body started to break down from all the strain. the rockets should have surrounded him with better players off the jump.

he did punk out towards the end and give up on the team, that will forever leave a bad taste in peoples mouth around here, but at the Mavs game the other night TMac was there front and center the camera zoomed in and the crowd gave him a nice ovation, when he stood up to wave the place went *******. time heals all wounds.

special,special player. could be a cocky, primadonna jerk at times, but cant deny his skill set on the court, he made players around him better.

IndiansFan337
03-04-2013, 11:27 PM
He always was an underachiever. Poor shot selection and over-reliance on his athleticism led to his downfall. He was one of the most talented players in the NBA at his peak. Injuries certainly were a factor as well.

RLundi
03-04-2013, 11:29 PM
Lol at ppl say he "could have" been better than Kobe. Key word "could". That's just like me saying I "could" have won the lotto. We all have a chance to be great. But most just can't get to that level. Tmac was a very good player. But to compare him to kobe is not fair to Kobe. Kobe's career is still being calculated while tmacs ended in 06.

Also where's was tmac will to win? And plz ppl give me something more than the 13 pts in 33 secs. Is that all he has done? Lol

Tmac a very good player who never who never done ****. Sounds more like kd of you ask me.

Lol at the lack of knowledge.

SoFreshNsoClean
03-05-2013, 12:01 AM
not his problem if the other four guys around are just watching him play he still won games tsking less then 30 shots

Lololol @ your sig.

I knew a laker fan waaay back in the day who used to always rock those in my class like they were the ****

most fugly shoe ever made and he used to ball in em... oh and yeah he was the biggest kobe nutrider I ever met

SoFreshNsoClean
03-05-2013, 12:03 AM
Here's my recap of his success. It's really pretty staggering how he carried those putrid rosters in Orlando the playoffs. Before his career was ravaged by injuries he really was a one man offensive monster.

In 2001 Tracy McGrady had his breakout season as his scoring average rose from 15.4 ppg to 26.8ppg while averaging 4.6apg and 7.5 rpg. Let's take a quick look at his teammates on that Orlando Magic team. These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Mike Miller
John Amaechi
Pat Garrity
Michael Doleac
Monty Williams
and Don Reid
The record of that flaming pile of crap? 43-39. Imagine if Grant Hill had been healthy for more than 4 games...In the playoffs, McGrady averages 34-7-8 with a TS% of 48.3% in a losing effort to the the Milwaukee Bucks led by a trio of Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell.


In 2002, McGrady continues to excel but is still saddled with little to no help
These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
(A way past his prime 36 year old) Horace Grant
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller
Troy Hudson
Monty Williams
Patrick Ewing's corpse playing less than 14mpg
and Don Reid
With no other teammate playing even close to an all-star level... the Magic finish 44-38. McGrady averages 31-6-5 with a TS% of 55.3% in a losing effort to the Hornets.

In 2003, McGrady has a regular season that is immortal in the eyes of many. He was first in the NBA in PER, Usage, Offensive Win Shares, 3rd in overall win shares, and his turnover percentage was 6th. Considering he handled the ball a lot more frequently and created a lot more assists than anyone ahead of him in the top 5 (purely shooters like Peja and Reggie), this is a remarkable statistic that gets overloooked. His advance statistics that season compare well with Jordan's best years. Yet let's take a look and see if the Magic FO finally got him some help. Most minutes played by anyone not named McGrady:

Darrell Armstrong
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller (their 3rd best player was injured for 32 games)
Shawn Kemp (33 year old Kemp was averaging a robust 7-6 on 41.8% fg... 46.8% ts)
Jaqcue Vaughn
Andrew DeClercq
Jeryl Sasser actually played over 1,000 minutes.

Names of players that actually STARTED at least one game for them that season: Pat Burke (8), Steven Hunter (5), Jeryl Sasser (4), Olumide Oyedeji (3), Chris Whitney (1) , Ryan Humphrey (1)

Besides McGrady, Pat Garrity was the only played that season to average over 10ppg and start at least 40 games for the Magic that season. 10.7 ppg in 53 starts. Considering the injuries to Grant Hill (still) and Mike Milller, this is the ugliest roster we've seen yet. Their record: 42-40. You think if you take McGrady off that team they are even going to sniff 25 wins? In the playoffs, McGrady averaged 32-7-5 with a TS% of 56.1%(!) as they lost in 7 games to the Pistons team that we are all familiar with... Rip, Chauncey, Ben Wallace, Prince, etc. How he could take that series to 7 games is beyond me.

In 2004, they stunk. McGrady played in 67 games and along with some familiar names they added a past his prime Juwan Howard, a young Drew Gooden, other playes like Lue, Bogans, Stevenson. They went 21-61 and for the first time were in the lottery in a McGrady season. Then the Magic decided to trade McGrady to the Rockets for Steve Francis. Magically their record the next season of 2005 was 36-46. Good thing they got rid of McGrady! No. The rosters between those two seasons were drastically different. They got the #1 overall pick in the draft and traded a future 1st to get the 20th player selected. They went from a lineup Juwan Howard/McGrady/Gooden/Lue/Bogans etc. to Francis / Dwight Howard / Grant Hill (finally healthy) / Hedo Turkoglu / Jameer Nelson. It's a completely different roster. Steve Francis didn't take Keith Bogans to 36 wins. That's for damn sure. Even after the roster turnover, they still didn't become a winning franchise again until 2008, four years AFTER trading McGrady.

Now it's 2005 and Tracy McGrady has joined Yao Ming in Houston. They go from a 45 win team to a 51-31 team in T-Mac's first season. McGrady and Yao team with Bob Sura, David Wesley, Juwan Howard, Jon Barry, and Dikembe Mutombo to take on a 58 win Mavericks team that features Dirk, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Finley, and Stackhouse. They lose in 7 games with Yao playing 60 less minutes that series than David Wesley due to foul trouble. McGrady plays 43mpg and averages 31-7-7 with a TS% of 55.6%(!) in a losing effort.

In 2006 McGrady career finally began a downward slope as injuries began to slow him down.

In my opinion, if he stayed healthy he would have been a top 10 SG... near Drexler but still behind MJ-Kobe-West-Wade-etc.

amazing/insightful post.

ESPECIALLY THE bold part...wow

smood999
03-05-2013, 12:41 AM
it was too short lived for him to have a lasting legacy (HOF)....but he was great for that short time period

Chronz
03-05-2013, 01:14 AM
He always was an underachiever. Poor shot selection and over-reliance on his athleticism led to his downfall. He was one of the most talented players in the NBA at his peak. Injuries certainly were a factor as well.

The problem I have with these kind of career breakdowns is that your basically trying to surmise a career filled with ups and downs. Tmac at his absolute peak had brilliant offensive IQ and saying he "over-relied" on his athleticism is pure opinion, he changed his game several times to remain a relevant player over the years, some of which I have to admit are overrated in hindsight, but his absolute best years in Orlando + first year in Houston, he got alot out of some truly pitiful squads.

3RDASYSTEM
03-05-2013, 01:57 AM
TMAC was MAGIC with a 3pt/j shot that was wet, he couldn't run showtime like MAGIC but he made up for it with his passing/scoring ability..MAGIC could score, but he didn't have a flame like TMAC, its not even close really

he had handle and passing ability and when locked in he had enough natural athletic ability and length to play just good enough D

Injuries derailed him(him and HILL), plus that PHI trade that got nixed which would have paired him with IVERSON back in 99' or so, sick combo had that popped off,sicker than DURANT/WEST and equal or sicker than BRON/WADE

now that I think of it no wonder it didn't happen

imagine those FINALS matchups against LA/SPURS/MAVS

TMAC is legit, injuries take it all away

And for those comparing TMAC/BEAN

TMAC was shammed in CANADA and people/media were ?'ing why he wasn't starting or playing starter minutes

BEAN was backing up JONES, he was better scorer but JONES could do more I guess, based on who was starting

Only thing separating BEAN and TMAC are rings and playing longer

so to me that doesn't mean anything because I would take TMAC who could do everything top notch but his playoff resume doesn't warrant him a top 10 or 20 of 'greatest' alltime, but based on pure 'floor game', hes easily one of the top players to ever do it, no doubt in my basketball playing mind

he was 6'8'' with a handle, top flight passer who could pull from hell's kitchen mixed with a killer mid range game and could post up also, he could literally do it all on offensive side and had he teamed up with BROWN/AI in PHI it would have been VAN GUNDY before VAN GUNDY(BROWN same style) so he would have gave max effort on D side, so it would have really maximized his ability, TOR/ORL stunted his growth, but at least ORL tried with the HILL/DUNCAN thing

you guys have no clue what balling really is,quit looking at rings, more so hardwood impact, its so obvious who is who and what is what, TMAC blew a 3-1 lead against DET just like BEAN did against PHX, go figure

I just don't understand a top 5 ever coming off the bench at any time ever, unless he's older than mummy dust

TMAC was in same boat as KG in MINNY, BRON in CLE, AI/BARKLEY(postDR.J/MALONE) in PHI,WADE postSHAQpreBRON,RICHMOND in SACTOWN, DREAM in HTOWN

carrying a squad single handed in the NBA is only built for the best, he was most def one of'em

LakersMaster24
03-05-2013, 02:21 AM
not his problem if the other four guys around are just watching him play he still won games tsking less then 30 shots

:facepalm:

The same argument can be made for Kobe. Kobe is not a ballhog, its not his problem the other 4 guys around are just watching him play. :laugh:

You people are freaking pathetic. He couldn't get past the FIRST round. I am not saying championship, I am not saying Conference Finals...the FIRST ROUND.

PSD's double standards.

Sactown
03-05-2013, 02:38 AM
If he remained healthy I'd have him 1 spot higher than Kobe on my all time list!

zn23
03-05-2013, 03:50 AM
If he remained healthy I'd have him 1 spot higher than Kobe on my all time list!

so would I

zn23
03-05-2013, 03:54 AM
:facepalm:

The same argument can be made for Kobe. Kobe is not a ballhog, its not his problem the other 4 guys around are just watching him play. :laugh:

You people are freaking pathetic. He couldn't get past the FIRST round. I am not saying championship, I am not saying Conference Finals...the FIRST ROUND.

PSD's double standards.

Kobe couldn't get out of the first round without help either. The Orlando squad he had was one of the worst of the last decade. The Rockets squad he was with had only him and Yao, all the role players sucked. Yao also got into foul trouble in the Mavs series almost every game, then it was up to T-mac to go solo.

DumDum
03-05-2013, 04:01 AM
Every time their is tmac thread laker fans try to down play him. He was flat out player than kobe from 2000-2006. It was his back that did him in not his heart.

FOBolous
03-05-2013, 04:24 AM
if im not mistaken has one of the highest scoring averages in playoff history. as a rocket fan i feel bad for him. that dude gave his soul, and was rewarded with a supporting cast of scrubs and geezers. ive argued that the effort he had to expend carrying those god awful teams to respectability probably led to his premature demise. body started to break down from all the strain. the rockets should have surrounded him with better players off the jump.

he did punk out towards the end and give up on the team, that will forever leave a bad taste in peoples mouth around here, but at the Mavs game the other night TMac was there front and center the camera zoomed in and the crowd gave him a nice ovation, when he stood up to wave the place went *******. time heals all wounds.

special,special player. could be a cocky, primadonna jerk at times, but cant deny his skill set on the court, he made players around him better.


Kobe couldn't get out of the first round without help either. The Orlando squad he had was one of the worst of the last decade. The Rockets squad he was with had only him and Yao, all the role players sucked. Yao also got into foul trouble in the Mavs series almost every game, then it was up to T-mac to go solo.

Houston's role players did not suck. Our role players + Yao took us past the first round while Tmac was injured.

DumDum
03-05-2013, 04:36 AM
Houston's role players did not suck. Our role players + Yao took us past the first round while Tmac was injured.

Yeah they suck at when they first traded for tmac but then they got Ron but that was about it shane was a bench guy still is a bench guy it's not a bad thing just they are better players

amos1er
03-05-2013, 04:50 AM
Kobe couldn't get out of the first round without help either. The Orlando squad he had was one of the worst of the last decade. The Rockets squad he was with had only him and Yao, all the role players sucked. Yao also got into foul trouble in the Mavs series almost every game, then it was up to T-mac to go solo.

I'm pretty sure that Kobe could have advanced past the first round with Yao on those Rockets teams. Remember, he went to the finals in 2008 with Pau and a bunch of role players. Though I will say that 2003 T-Mac could have gotten pretty far with Yao and a bunch of role players.

amos1er
03-05-2013, 05:00 AM
If he remained healthy I'd have him 1 spot higher than Kobe on my all time list!

lol Based on what? Prime Kobe was a better offensive and defensive player than prime T-Mac ever was. No dis on T-Mac or anything, just saying that Kobe's prime was better. Kobe had much more All NBA first team and Defensive first team selections during his peak years. Not to mention that prime Kobe broke almost every NBA scoring record when he was on a team filled with scrubs. In addition, he took them to a 7 seed in the playoffs and almost advanced to the second round where as 2003 T-Mac did take a similar weak team to an 8 seed and push them to a game 7, but he was in the weak east facing a team that wasn't nearly as good as the 2006 Phoenix Suns. Kobe was by far the best offensive and defensive player at his position in his prime...can't really say the same about T-Mac.

Prime Kobe...81 ponts, 62 in three quarters, 4 games of 50+ points, averaged 35.4 ppg and was always both first team All NBA and All NBA Defense.

DumDum
03-05-2013, 05:27 AM
Lol at ppl say he "could have" been better than Kobe. Key word "could". That's just like me saying I "could" have won the lotto. We all have a chance to be great. But most just can't get to that level. Tmac was a very good player. But to compare him to kobe is not fair to Kobe. Kobe's career is still being calculated while tmacs ended in 06.

Also where's was tmac will to win? And plz ppl give me something more than the 13 pts in 33 secs. Is that all he has done? Lol

Tmac a very good player who never who never done ****. Sounds more like kd of you ask me.

Some people could . People who actually watched basketball in the early 2000s Tracy was better kobe until he got hurt.

DumDum
03-05-2013, 05:30 AM
lol Based on what? Prime Kobe was a better offensive and defensive player than prime T-Mac ever was. No dis on T-Mac or anything, just saying that Kobe's prime was better. Kobe had much more All NBA first team and Defensive first team selections during his peak years. Not to mention that prime Kobe broke almost every NBA scoring record when he was on a team filled with scrubs. In addition, he took them to a 7 seed in the playoffs and almost advanced to the second round where as 2003 T-Mac did take a similar weak team to an 8 seed and push them to a game 7, but he was in the weak east facing a team that wasn't nearly as good as the 2006 Phoenix Suns. Kobe was by far the best offensive and defensive player at his position in his prime...can't really say the same about T-Mac.

Prime Kobe...81 ponts, 62 in three quarters, 4 games of 50+ points, averaged 35.4 ppg and was always both first team All NBA and All NBA Defense.

Kobe's D teams awards don't count the league just handed it to him it was really a joke. Tony Allen, d wade, joe Johnson to name a few had better yrs on D than kobe ever tryed to. You can try and show stats but its not going help your weak case for Kobe's weak D

amos1er
03-05-2013, 05:39 AM
Kobe's D teams awards don't count the league just handed it to him it was really a joke. Tony Allen, d wade, joe Johnson to name a few had better yrs on D than kobe ever tryed to. You can try and show stats but its not going help your weak case for Kobe's weak D

The league may have handed him some undeserved Defensive Team awards the past 2 seasons, but from 2000-2010, they were well deserved. T-Mac didn't even receive one All Defensive Team award in his career to my knowledge. Kobe was the best at his position both offensively and defensively in his peak and even during the Shaq years. Kobe broke countless NBA scoring records when he was on a similar weak roster to 2003 T-Mac. Kobe is easily a top 3 scorer of all time and he has the Defensive awards on top of that. Also, didn't he beat T-Mac in a one on one game in Germany back in 2002? Heck, go look up Kobe's 2001 playoff stats and tell me that T-Mac was better even back then. In closing, I just want to say one thing...81 points, 62 in three quarters, 35.4 ppg, and 4 straight games of 50+. Prime T-Mac can't touch those numbers.

amos1er
03-05-2013, 05:44 AM
2003 T-Mac - 42 wins in the weak east, lead his team to an 8 seed, lost in 7 games to the Pistons (not nearly as good as the 2006 Suns).

2006 Kobe - 45 wins, lead his team to a 7 seed in a more difficult conference, lost in 7 games to Phoenix (a superior team to the 2003 Pistons). 81 points, 62 in three quarters, 35.4 ppg, All NBA first team, All NBA Defensive First Team.

I rest my case.

DumDum
03-05-2013, 05:51 AM
2003 T-Mac - 42 wins in the weak east, lead his team to an 8 seed, lost in 7 games to the Pistons (not nearly as good as the 2006 Suns).

2006 Kobe - 45 wins, lead his team to a 7 seed in a more difficult conference, lost in 7 games to Phoenix (a superior team to the 2003 Pistons). 81 points, 62 in three quarters, 35.4 ppg, All NBA first team, All NBA Defensive First Team.

I rest my case.

Do you even lift ? If we talking stats kobe scored a career low vs the raps in 2005 a weak 11. His 81 just proves how selfish he is

DumDum
03-05-2013, 05:54 AM
Tmac never had space shoes as basketball kicks

amos1er
03-05-2013, 05:59 AM
Do you even lift ? If we talking stats kobe scored a career low vs the raps in 2005 a weak 11. His 81 just proves how selfish he is

Lol, so your saying that 2003 T-Mac wasn't selfish at all during any of his 50+ point performances (only had 2 that season one in OT and the other in double OT and he didn't even break 55) yet Kobe was during his? How is that even logical? Did you even watch that 81 point game? Kobe single handedly brought his team back from an 18 point deficit and won the game while shooting at an unheard of TS% of .74. Kobe was the hot hand and his teammates weren't getting the job done...why wouldn't he keep on shooting especially when he was the main reason they won that game? What about his 62 in three quarters against Dallas? If he was truly selfish as you say, wouldn't he have played in the fourth quarter in order to go for another scoring record? Fact is, he sat out in the fourth because the game was already won. How is that selfish?

DumDum
03-05-2013, 06:12 AM
Lol, so your saying that 2003 T-Mac wasn't selfish at all during any of his 50+ point performances (only had 2 that season one in OT and the other in double OT and he didn't even break 55) yet Kobe was during his? How is that even logical? Did you even watch that 81 point game? Kobe single handedly brought his team back from an 18 point deficit and won the game while shooting at an unheard of TS% of .74. Kobe was the hot hand and his teammates weren't getting the job done...why wouldn't he keep on shooting especially when he was the main reason they won that game? What about his 62 in three quarters against Dallas? If he was truly selfish as you say, wouldn't he have played in the fourth quarter in order to go for another scoring record? Fact is, he sat out in the fourth because the game was already won. How is that selfish?

"Space shoes":lift::lift::lift:

TmacBryant
03-05-2013, 07:57 AM
and you are underrating his talent big time. He was flat out better for a couple years than Kobe has ever been, and the only player in his generation that would have challenged him was Bron. But, I get it, Laker fans will never accept that.

He was better than Kobe offensively for 1-2 years, but Kobe was always better defensively. Injuries and work ethic were probably the reasons why T-Mac wasn't a great defensive player.

I-4_Fan
03-05-2013, 08:43 AM
His talent would have been amazing no matter where he went. During his peak he was one of the sickest scores out there. But I would consider him more of an AI then a Kobe just on playing talent and being a scorer.

I would argue that had he stayed healthy, he should of stayed in Orlando, because his offense combined with Dwights defense may have made the new Shaq/Kobe combination. Orlando drafted Dwight the same year they traded Tracy. If he was to remain healthy, the team may have been able to win a championship.

Had him and Yao stayed healthy, they would of made the Rockets a monster of a team. But I don't see how him and Vince Carter would of made Toronto a championship team, especially since they both truly played the same position and both wanted out of Toronto.

Chronz
03-05-2013, 11:44 AM
Houston's role players did not suck. Our role players + Yao took us past the first round while Tmac was injured.

LOL you make it sound like those were the role players they had during Tmac's entire career. Break down his post, hes talking about PRIME Mac. When Houston/Orlando couldn't even crack .500 if he wasn't playing.

Chronz
03-05-2013, 11:46 AM
He was better than Kobe offensively for 1-2 years, but Kobe was always better defensively. Injuries and work ethic were probably the reasons why T-Mac wasn't a great defensive player.

What makes you think Tmac wasn't a great defensive player at some point? He was trash once the injuries caught up but hes had some fine defensive moments. Hes one of the few star players who I could count on to raise up the defensive intentsity come playoff time.

Chronz
03-05-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm pretty sure that Kobe could have advanced past the first round with Yao on those Rockets teams. Remember, he went to the finals in 2008 with Pau and a bunch of role players. Though I will say that 2003 T-Mac could have gotten pretty far with Yao and a bunch of role players.

2008 Lakers could definitely win more than 50% of their games without Kobe, the first few years in Houston, even with Yao healthy, the Rockets couldn't even come close to that mark without Tmac. So this depends on which year your talking about. Tmac past his first season in Houston MAYBE his 2nd healthy campaign, he was no longer a superstar, just your casual All-NBA-Fringe MVP contender

Chronz
03-05-2013, 11:56 AM
lol Based on what? Prime Kobe was a better offensive and defensive player than prime T-Mac ever was. No dis on T-Mac or anything, just saying that Kobe's prime was better. Kobe had much more All NBA first team and Defensive first team selections during his peak years. Not to mention that prime Kobe broke almost every NBA scoring record when he was on a team filled with scrubs. In addition, he took them to a 7 seed in the playoffs and almost advanced to the second round where as 2003 T-Mac did take a similar weak team to an 8 seed and push them to a game 7, but he was in the weak east facing a team that wasn't nearly as good as the 2006 Phoenix Suns. Kobe was by far the best offensive and defensive player at his position in his prime...can't really say the same about T-Mac.

Prime Kobe...81 ponts, 62 in three quarters, 4 games of 50+ points, averaged 35.4 ppg and was always both first team All NBA and All NBA Defense.

He said if he remained healthy, Tmac had a better year (statistically) at 23 than Kobe did at his absolute apex, nothing to ashamed of tho, that was a truly historical campaign.

The Suns were also a mediocre defensive team in comparison to the Pistons on top of playing in the Handcheck era, despite those advantages, Kobe struggled in the facilitating role Phil had him playing, its why his stats all went down and his turnovers (predictably) shot up, meanwhile Tmac was tearing up the best defensive team in the league before they finally took him out.

Sorry but Tmac producing at a higher rate, carrying far worse teammates vs a tougher defensive opponent with tougher defensive rules in place is more impressive than seeing Kobe turn into a turnover machine with meh stats against a soft team with lax defensive rules.

PS Did you see my post regarding Kobe/MJ's All-D teams? Do you think Kobe will make the cut again or is this FINALLY the year they stop gifting him these selections?

Chronz
03-05-2013, 11:59 AM
2003 T-Mac - 42 wins in the weak east, lead his team to an 8 seed, lost in 7 games to the Pistons (not nearly as good as the 2006 Suns).

2006 Kobe - 45 wins, lead his team to a 7 seed in a more difficult conference, lost in 7 games to Phoenix (a superior team to the 2003 Pistons). 81 points, 62 in three quarters, 35.4 ppg, All NBA first team, All NBA Defensive First Team.

I rest my case.

Lies and lack of evidence ? Compelling case bro

How about showing us what Kobe did in the playoffs vs that defensive juggernaut, then compare it to what Tmac did vs that soft Ben Wallace guy and those soft rules they had, you know, before they made handchecking legal like it is today.... err wait

Chronz
03-05-2013, 12:02 PM
Also, didn't he beat T-Mac in a one on one game in Germany back in 2002?

Nope, it was refuted by an Adidas rep. Kobe confused Tmac with Tim Thomas or some other guy.

MrfadeawayJB
03-05-2013, 12:37 PM
He was very good. A top offensive talent in the league during his hay day

bagwell368
03-05-2013, 12:43 PM
Top notch offensive player in his prime. Not much on D. He's sort of your generations Bill Walton, although I would argue that both players left to have a full career Walton would top McGrady in terms of overall value since Walton would likely have been a top 12 player all time. McGrady #18-30 range perhaps (the D holds him back).

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 01:02 PM
Lol.. T-Mac is up there with LeBron and Kobe? In terms of what?

The way I look at it is T-Mac had 2-3 years that matched up with Kobe's best years.

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/99/77/9977cef89666931eb66ee8c72425e847.png

Never made it deep into the playoffs.. Had all the talent in the world but got injured and stopped caring.

A better question would be KD vs McGrady, which I think is going on a limb because Grady never put up KD numbers.

Mcgrady had a 30 PER and .262 WS/48 in 02-03

Kobe's best were 28 and 2.2

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 01:04 PM
Top notch offensive player in his prime. Not much on D. He's sort of your generations Bill Walton, although I would argue that both players left to have a full career Walton would top McGrady in terms of overall value since Walton would likely have been a top 12 player all time. McGrady #18-30 range perhaps (the D holds him back).

Mcgrady put up 5.4 defensive win shares in 04-05 and 4.5 in 06-07

Kobe's best ever was 4.5

sp1derm00
03-05-2013, 01:08 PM
I consider 01-05' Tmac's prime years and what's most impressive about his play during that time is how low his turnovers were compared to his other stats. He averaged around 28ppg, 7rpg, 5.5apg during that stretch with only about 2.6 TO/gm.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:25 PM
Just how good was he? If he stayed healthy throughout his career what do you think his legacy would be?

Top 20 all time.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 01:26 PM
Top 20 all time.

If he stayed healthy and kept up his 02-04 type numbers he would be top 12 easily.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:26 PM
One of the purest scorers I've ever seen.

Would have been a top 5 player for a decade, probably a lesser Kobe.

But yeah he was pretty much a prototypical shooting-guard for a good 4-5 years

+1

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:29 PM
Lol the same Tracy who never got passed the first round?

Phenom? Going a little overboard there

Haweye was just taking a lil jab at Kobe by basically saying he would have been better than Kobe Career wise if he stayed healthy.:no: I Don't think so hawkeye.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 01:31 PM
Haweye was just taking a lil jab at Kobe by basically saying he would have been better than Kobe Career wise if he stayed healthy.:no: I Don't think so hawkeye.

He would be and it isn't even a question.....

Yunqn
03-05-2013, 01:31 PM
By looking at the posts ..

You can sum up tmac as

A fan favorite who had elite talent but was ultimately held back from greatness with injuries..

whitemamba33
03-05-2013, 01:32 PM
Haweye was just taking a lil jab at Kobe by basically saying he would have been better than Kobe Career wise if he stayed healthy.:no: I Don't think so hawkeye.

He's a fan of the T-Wolves...

You can't really expect him to value winning very much.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:32 PM
His prime is up there with Lebron and Kobe's prime.

I agree his prime was up there. but hawkeye will go to worlds end to prove he was better than Kobe. Kobe did beat the living **** out of him 1v1 when they were in primes.

D12 fan
03-05-2013, 01:34 PM
Tmac was also a trend setter, he brought back the jordan leg sleeve except his was longer and had color. Kobe also rocked the colored leg sleeve for a little while also.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:34 PM
T-Mac < Kobe


nuff said. dude never was a winner.

Someone hacked manram. Call the police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zn23
03-05-2013, 01:43 PM
I agree his prime was up there. but hawkeye will go to worlds end to prove he was better than Kobe. Kobe did beat the living **** out of him 1v1 when they were in primes.

LOL, I'm guessing you're basing this off of the game where Kobe had two blocks on him?

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:49 PM
If he stayed healthy and kept up his 02-04 type numbers he would be top 12 easily.

With no rings? NO!

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:51 PM
He would be and it isn't even a question.....

Lol tmac who has never even sniffed a finals apperance better than Kobe?Lol keep dreaming. We don't live in fantasy land either, so the tmac "could have been" argument are hilarious.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 01:55 PM
LOL, I'm guessing you're basing this off of the game where Kobe had two blocks on him?

Nope. Kobe said he beat him down 1v1 2 games in a row, the second one being a smack down. Why would Kobe make that up? Of course tmac would deny it. I would embarrassed to admit too.

John Walls Era
03-05-2013, 02:00 PM
Houston's role players did not suck. Our role players + Yao took us past the first round while Tmac was injured.

Different season... It was Juawn Howard, Bob Sura and Mike James.

John Walls Era
03-05-2013, 02:01 PM
Nope. Kobe said he beat him down 1v1 2 games in a row, the second one being a smack down. Why would Kobe make that up? Of course tmac would deny it. I would embarrassed to admit too.

Of course we have to believe Kobe. Its not like he eever lied in his life. The man is a saint. He never betrayed the trust of his family or his fans.

SteBO
03-05-2013, 02:02 PM
Without the injuries, I'd say top 15 all-time "talent". His skill set isn't much if at all different from Kobe's, but without the hardware he isn't a guy I'd place above him. Dude could score from anywhere on the court, and I'm one of the few in my circle who thinks he could've won in HOU had he and Yao not been so injury-riddled.

whitemamba33
03-05-2013, 02:05 PM
Of course we have to believe Kobe. Its not like he eever lied in his life. The man is a saint. He never betrayed the trust of his family or his fans.

He knew how many games they played, the score, and noted that Tracy stopped playing because he had back spasms. I have no clue if he's lying or not, but it's hard to believe that he would single out McGrady if it wasn't true, and that he would make up all those details on the spot.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 02:16 PM
Different season... It was Juawn Howard, Bob Sura and Mike James.


Lol tmac who has never even sniffed a finals apperance better than Kobe?Lol keep dreaming. We don't live in fantasy land either, so the tmac "could have been" argument are hilarious.

:facepalm: rings are a team accomplishment, look at the above team

vs. Shaq,

vs. Gasol, Bynum, and Odom

Who has Tmac ever played with in his prime?

zn23
03-05-2013, 02:19 PM
He knew how many games they played, the score, and noted that Tracy stopped playing because he had back spasms. I have no clue if he's lying or not, but it's hard to believe that he would single out McGrady if it wasn't true, and that he would make up all those details on the spot.

Lol you sound very gullible. No offense.

bagwell368
03-05-2013, 02:20 PM
Mcgrady put up 5.4 defensive win shares in 04-05 and 4.5 in 06-07


McGrady's WS's on D was top 10 once in his career (5), on Offense it was 4 times (9, 10, 1, 8)

As it turns out, not only was Walton going to have a better career then McGrady with no injury. I'll throw Moncrief out there as well. He was healthy 6 out of his 11 seasons. OWS ranking (4, 2, 4, 10, 5) DWS (8)

Walton > Moncrief > McGrady

whitemamba33
03-05-2013, 02:23 PM
:facepalm: rings are a team accomplishment, look at the above team

vs. Shaq,

vs. Gasol, Bynum, and Odom

Who has Tmac ever played with in his prime?

Bad decisions and injuries cost him.

Could have stayed in Toronto and would have done well with Vince. Shortly after McGrady left, Vince ended up taking his Raptors deeper in the playoffs than TMAC has ever been. So he missed out there.

Could have stayed in Orlando and eventually partnered with Dwight Howard. He got in senseless fights with upper management and left Orlando right before Dwight got there. So he missed out there too.

Injuries cost him in Houston. Houston ended up doing better without him during a few runs as well.

I lost a lot of respect for him a few years ago when he blamed his lack of success on the teams he played with. I'm not saying he should have been a fortune teller, but at the end of the day he made his own decisions and they didn't pan out for him, and then when Houson put together a good team he was too injured to play for them.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 02:47 PM
Of course we have to believe Kobe. Its not like he eever lied in his life. The man is a saint. He never betrayed the trust of his family or his fans.

What does he benefit from saying he put an *** whooping on Tmac? He was asked a question and answered it on the spot. How can you make up a story within 5 seconds?

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 02:48 PM
He knew how many games they played, the score, and noted that Tracy stopped playing because he had back spasms. I have no clue if he's lying or not, but it's hard to believe that he would single out McGrady if it wasn't true, and that he would make up all those details on the spot.

Thank you. It's impossible to make up a detailed story in a matter of seconds.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 02:51 PM
:facepalm: rings are a team accomplishment, look at the above team

vs. Shaq,

vs. Gasol, Bynum, and Odom

Who has Tmac ever played with in his prime?

Tmac has never even made it out of the second round. That is an absolute joke. Kobe ***** on tmac in every way possible sorry alex.

zn23
03-05-2013, 02:52 PM
It's impossible to make up a detailed story in a matter of seconds.

Not really

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 02:55 PM
Not really

Yeah, Kobe made up a very detailed story about how he beat down a has been to make himself look good. Kobes career sucks so he felt like he had to make a story up to be cool :rolleyes:

fredv
03-05-2013, 03:00 PM
Late Orlando to early Houston, McGrady was an animal. So freaking efficient. Up there with the great's..

To bad he didn't have Kobe's work ethic and diet, otherwise, he would have been considered better than him.

His natural skillset was way better than Kobe's.

Just shows you that you need more to be one of the greatest's than just rely on your natural abilities.

Hard-work and discipline are often underrated, thats why you see some many stiffs in the lottery become busts.

garyraymond23
03-05-2013, 03:04 PM
He should've been a top 20, 15 player of all time .. I can't stand him.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 03:09 PM
Tmac has never even made it out of the second round. That is an absolute joke. Kobe ***** on tmac in every way possible sorry alex.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m02rqo2GE21r048r7.png

This is why we are talking about HAD HE BEEN HEALTHY. Had he'd been healthy they would have gotten out of the first round many times. His team success probably wouldn't have been on Kobe's level because management never put out a good team around him, but a healthy T-Mac Yao and decent cast would have gone deep in the playoffs a few times.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 03:11 PM
Late Orlando to early Houston, McGrady was an animal. So freaking efficient. Up there with the great's..

To bad he didn't have Kobe's work ethic and diet, otherwise, he would have been considered better than him.

His natural skillset was way better than Kobe's.

Just shows you that you need more to be one of the greatest's than just rely on your natural abilities.

Hard-work and discipline are often underrated, thats why you see some many stiffs in the lottery become busts.

Yes because you know what Mcgrady's training regiment and diet looked like.... Don't kid yourself.

Mcgrady had a couple of freak injuries and the back of a 50 year old. That is what doomed him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 03:23 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m02rqo2GE21r048r7.png

This is why we are talking about HAD HE BEEN HEALTHY. Had he'd been healthy they would have gotten out of the first round many times. His team success probably wouldn't have been on Kobe's level because management never put out a good team around him, but a healthy T-Mac Yao and decent cast would have gone deep in the playoffs a few times.

What could have been. But hey at least you still get to see Kobe play :up:

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 03:23 PM
Yes because you know what Mcgrady's training regiment and diet looked like.... Don't kid yourself.

Mcgrady had a couple of freak injuries and the back of a 50 year old. That is what doomed him.

Nobody matches Kobe in that dept.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 03:43 PM
What could have been. But hey at least you still get to see Kobe play :up:

That's what this thread is about ... or do you not know how to read.

That would explain a lot.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 04:03 PM
That's what this thread is about ... or do you not know how to read.

That would explain a lot.

You can sit and dream all day about who Tmac should have been. It Will never change reality.

superior
03-05-2013, 04:10 PM
dude was bad to the bone, but nerds on psd like to think that since he played with a bunch of scrubs and never made it past the first round, then he wasnt that good.

RLundi
03-05-2013, 04:22 PM
Top notch offensive player in his prime. Not much on D. He's sort of your generations Bill Walton, although I would argue that both players left to have a full career Walton would top McGrady in terms of overall value since Walton would likely have been a top 12 player all time. McGrady #18-30 range perhaps (the D holds him back).

His D was actually pretty solid. His win shares for his prime (before being relegated to a bench role) actually compare very favorably to someone like Kobe's win shares. Both were known as good defenders in their day and it doesn't take anything away from Kobe's legacy so why would it for T-Mac's? His defense alone, which wasn't poor by any means, wouldn't have done anything to discredit him if his prime had lasted more than a few seasons.

Sadly, his career was cut short so we don't know if he would've ever won championships, but purely from a statistical standpoint, he had the best 4 year stretch of any shooting guard in history not named Michael Jordan and Dwyane Wade, and even the latter is debatable. That means Kobe, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler -- none of them could touch T-Mac in terms of production when he was at his very peak. It's a shame he got injured because he very well could have been one of the all-time greats.

Faneik
03-05-2013, 04:28 PM
Tmac has never even made it out of the second round. That is an absolute joke. Kobe ***** on tmac in every way possible sorry alex.

Shaq left --> Kobe main guy in LA

04-05: lakers miss playoffs for the 5th time in franchise history
05-06: 1st round exit
06-07: 1st round exit

and then Gasol came.

So there, Kobe without help is a 1st round exit

zn23
03-05-2013, 04:33 PM
Shaq left --> Kobe main guy in LA

04-05: lakers miss playoffs for the 5th time in franchise history
05-06: 1st round exit
06-07: 1st round exit

and then Gasol came.

So there, Kobe without help is a 1st round exit

Kobe also quit in this series

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 04:40 PM
Shaq left --> Kobe main guy in LA

04-05: lakers miss playoffs for the 5th time in franchise history
05-06: 1st round exit
06-07: 1st round exit

and then Gasol came.

So there, Kobe without help is a 1st round exit

You forgot to mention Kobe had the worst team in league history :facepalm:

Faneik
03-05-2013, 04:52 PM
You forgot to mention Kobe had the worst team in league history :facepalm:

the point remains.

Shaq left, Lakers sucked with Kobe as the main guy.

SOS
03-05-2013, 04:52 PM
At his peak he was absolutely better than kobe

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 04:52 PM
You forgot to mention Kobe had the worst team in league history :facepalm:

Almost as bad as Tmacs teams...

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 04:54 PM
Kobe fan logic

Tmac has nobody to work with not making it past the first round- not a winner, bad legacy, ect.

Kobe has a bad team misses the playoffs or 1st round exit - still a winner, GOAT, ect.

magic0320
03-05-2013, 05:22 PM
Shaq left --> Kobe main guy in LA

04-05: lakers miss playoffs for the 5th time in franchise history
05-06: 1st round exit
06-07: 1st round exit

and then Gasol came.

So there, Kobe without help is a 1st round exit

lol how many playoff games gasol won before he joined kobe?
how many years did it take it for kobe to win his ship as man? and how many years for shaq to win ship as man?
oh and where is tmac and where is kobe right now? i know one of them isn't even in country.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 05:54 PM
lol how many playoff games gasol won before he joined kobe?
how many years did it take it for kobe to win his ship as man? and how many years for shaq to win ship as man?
oh and where is tmac and where is kobe right now? i know one of them isn't even in country.

The point
.
.
.
.
.
.
You

c.c.
03-05-2013, 06:02 PM
Him and Kobe was neck and neck

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 06:11 PM
Kobe fan logic

Tmac has nobody to work with not making it past the first round- not a winner, bad legacy, ect.

Kobe has a bad team misses the playoffs or 1st round exit - still a winner, GOAT, ect.

Check the resume. Tmac is so overrated on here it's not even funny.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 06:13 PM
Him and Kobe was neck and neck

Yes they were, for about 2-3 years and then Kobe proved to be the way better player.

amos1er
03-05-2013, 06:17 PM
2008 Lakers could definitely win more than 50% of their games without Kobe,

Funny you say that, because Pau only played 27 games as a Laker in 2008. Odom missed 5 games and Bynum only played in 35 games. Based on that, do you still believe the 2008 Lakers are a .500 team without Kobe???


the first few years in Houston, even with Yao healthy, the Rockets couldn't even come close to that mark without Tmac. So this depends on which year your talking about. Tmac past his first season in Houston MAYBE his 2nd healthy campaign, he was no longer a superstar, just your casual All-NBA-Fringe MVP contender

Rockets were a first round exit playoff team before T-Mac got there, and they were a first round exit playoff team after the got there. Except for when he was injured in 2009 and they made it to the second round. No dis on T-Mac...just facts.

amos1er
03-05-2013, 06:20 PM
If he stayed healthy and kept up his 02-04 type numbers he would be top 12 easily.

If pigs had wings they could fly. Whats your point? Too many unknown variables in your scenario to base a logical conclusion.

smith&wesson
03-05-2013, 06:29 PM
not good enough to last.

fredv
03-05-2013, 06:44 PM
Yes because you know what Mcgrady's training regiment and diet looked like.... Don't kid yourself.

Mcgrady had a couple of freak injuries and the back of a 50 year old. That is what doomed him.

It's very well-known that McGrady wasn't a gym-rat and didn't work that much on his game. He was lazy.

Also well-known that he loveeeeed his southern bbq food during the offseason.

Having a healthy diet and working out not only improves your game, but it reduces the chance of injuries. He might not have gotten lucky, but that doesn't excuse poor work ethic.

Lets not act like Kobe was never injured either.

When its all said and done, Kobe just has the "uhmmff" that Jordan had, and McGrady didn't. And this is coming from a Rockets fan.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 06:48 PM
If pigs had wings they could fly. Whats your point? Too many unknown variables in your scenario to base a logical conclusion.

That is the premise of the whole goddamn thread.....

amos1er
03-05-2013, 06:55 PM
He said if he remained healthy, Tmac had a better year (statistically) at 23 than Kobe did at his absolute apex, nothing to ashamed of tho, that was a truly historical campaign.

If you want to go by only advanced stats and nothing else, than sure, T-Mac gets the nod.

Not only would T-Mac have to stay healthy, he would have to keep that same, or close to that level production up for the next five years at least. So no, it's not only just about T-Mac staying healthy.


The Suns were also a mediocre defensive team in comparison to the Pistons on top of playing in the Handcheck era, despite those advantages, Kobe struggled in the facilitating role Phil had him playing, its why his stats all went down and his turnovers (predictably) shot up, meanwhile Tmac was tearing up the best defensive team in the league before they finally took him out.

So you are saying that the 2003 Pistons were a better team than the 2006 Suns??? Do I really have to pull up their respective records and how far they each went in the playoffs, or even mention just how much weaker the east is than the west?


Sorry but Tmac producing at a higher rate, carrying far worse teammates vs a tougher defensive opponent with tougher defensive rules in place is more impressive than seeing Kobe turn into a turnover machine with meh stats against a soft team with lax defensive rules.

Far worse teammates eh??? Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Brian Cook...those guys were all starters that year.


PS Did you see my post regarding Kobe/MJ's All-D teams? Do you think Kobe will make the cut again or is this FINALLY the year they stop gifting him these selections?

No I did not see your post. I doubt Kobe will make the cut again this year. Regardless, Kobe is a much better defender than T-Mac ever was even in his heyday and his 9 first team selections and 3 second team selections are 12 more then T-Mac ever had in his entire career.

amos1er
03-05-2013, 07:01 PM
Lies and lack of evidence ? Compelling case bro

How about showing us what Kobe did in the playoffs vs that defensive juggernaut, then compare it to what Tmac did vs that soft Ben Wallace guy and those soft rules they had, you know, before they made handchecking legal like it is today.... err wait

Why are you comparing the 2004 Pistons to the 2003 Pistons? Totally different teams.

amos1er
03-05-2013, 07:08 PM
Nope, it was refuted by an Adidas rep. Kobe confused Tmac with Tim Thomas or some other guy.

I have no doubt in my mind that Kobe would be able to take T-Mac one on one at any point in his career. T-Mac may have gotten more assists and rebounds in 2003 than Kobe got in 2006, but Kobe is still the better player offensively and defensively.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
Funny you say that, because Pau only played 27 games as a Laker in 2008. Odom missed 5 games and Bynum only played in 35 games. Based on that, do you still believe the 2008 Lakers are a .500 team without Kobe???



Rockets were a first round exit playoff team before T-Mac got there, and they were a first round exit playoff team after the got there. Except for when he was injured in 2009 and they made it to the second round. No dis on T-Mac...just facts.
:clap:

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
If pigs had wings they could fly. Whats your point? Too many unknown variables in your scenario to base a logical conclusion.

:clap: :clap:

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 07:10 PM
It's very well-known that McGrady wasn't a gym-rat and didn't work that much on his game. He was lazy.

Also well-known that he loveeeeed his southern bbq food during the offseason.

Having a healthy diet and working out not only improves your game, but it reduces the chance of injuries. He might not have gotten lucky, but that doesn't excuse poor work ethic.

Lets not act like Kobe was never injured either.

When its all said and done, Kobe just has the "uhmmff" that Jordan had, and McGrady didn't. And this is coming from a Rockets fan.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Zefflin
03-05-2013, 07:14 PM
Him and Kobe was neck and neck

Yeap, Tmac was close, but no cigar

amos1er
03-05-2013, 07:14 PM
That is the premise of the whole goddamn thread.....

Really, because the title is "How good Was Tracy Mcgrady?". Where does it say if healthy he would have kept up his level of production from 2003 for sure and that he would have been ranked higher than Kobe? Here I though some Kobe haters just added that all in for fun. It's like someone taking Kobe's 2006 season and assuming that he was going to have similar production for the next 7 years or something. What you are saying about T-Mac in regards to all he had to do was stay healthy to become ranked higher than Kobe on the all time list is just not logical. There are so many other factors that come into play. You can't just assume that he is going to put up those numbers every single year if healthy. Thats a lot to assume. He was playing on a crappy team that year, you honestly think that on a good team his numbers would be the same if healthy??? Sometimes you Kobe haters really crack me up.

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 07:17 PM
Really, because the title is "How good Wade Tracy Mcgrady?". Where does it say if healthy he would have kept up his level of production from 2003 for sure and that he would have been ranked higher than Kobe? Here I though some Kobe haters just added that all in for fun. It's like someone taking Kobe's 2006 season and assuming that he was going to have similar production for the next 7 years or something. What you are saying about T-Mac in regards to all he had to do was stay healthy to become ranked higher than Kobe on the all time list is just not logical. There are so many other factors that come into play. You can't just assume that he is going to put up those numbers every single year if healthy. Thats a lot to assume. He was playing on a crappy team that year, you honestly think that on a good team his numbers would be the same if healthy??? Sometimes you Kobe haters really crack me up.


Just how good was he? If he stayed healthy throughout his career what do you think his legacy would be?

Learn how to read...

BigCityofDreams
03-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Kobe's D teams awards don't count the league just handed it to him it was really a joke. Tony Allen, d wade, joe Johnson to name a few had better yrs on D than kobe ever tryed to. You can try and show stats but its not going help your weak case for Kobe's weak D

Ppl still say that lol. i thought we were past this line of thinking wtf

Faneik
03-05-2013, 07:57 PM
:clap:


:clap: :clap:


:clap: :clap: :clap:

what a groupie

amos1er
03-05-2013, 08:14 PM
Learn how to read...

Love how you say that, yet don't even bother to read the point I was really making. Well, here it is again...you can't base your prediction for how good someone "would have" been based on their best year of production. That would be the same as if Kobe's career ended after 2006 and people saying that if he went on, he would have broken 100 points in a single game eventually and would have averaged 35 ppg or more for the next 5 years. Obviously, that would be called hoping for the best, and thats exactly what you are all doing in this thread...playing the "what if" game, only it's based on the probabilities of a homers perspective.

Chronz
03-05-2013, 08:24 PM
LOL, I'm guessing you're basing this off of the game where Kobe had two blocks on him?

Nope. Kobe said he beat him down 1v1 2 games in a row, the second one being a smack down. Why would Kobe make that up? Of course tmac would deny it. I would embarrassed to admit too.
Except its been proven false

Chronz
03-05-2013, 08:32 PM
Nope, it was refuted by an Adidas rep. Kobe confused Tmac with Tim Thomas or some other guy.

I have no doubt in my mind that Kobe would be able to take T-Mac one on one at any point in his career. T-Mac may have gotten more assists and rebounds in 2003 than Kobe got in 2006, but Kobe is still the better player offensively and defensively.
Doesn't matter to me, just pointing out what I heard about kobes allegations

Chronz
03-05-2013, 08:37 PM
Lies and lack of evidence ? Compelling case bro

How about showing us what Kobe did in the playoffs vs that defensive juggernaut, then compare it to what Tmac did vs that soft Ben Wallace guy and those soft rules they had, you know, before they made handchecking legal like it is today.... err wait

Why are you comparing the 2004 Pistons to the 2003 Pistons? Totally different teams.
Strawman arguments are the best you have? Ill respond to the rest of your rubbish when I have a chance but what purpose do these posts serve?

Im comparing the Pistons D and the leagues rules at the time vs the Suns lack thereof and the leagues rules. TRY AGAIN

Chronz
03-05-2013, 08:43 PM
Funny you say that, because Pau only played 27 games as a Laker in 2008. Odom missed 5 games and Bynum only played in 35 games. Based on that, do you still believe the 2008 Lakers are a .500 team without Kobe??? touche
I was thinking of the year after but at least Kobe had one of the 2 bigs. I still maintain it depends on the year they had.



Rockets were a first round exit playoff team before T-Mac got there, and they were a first round exit playoff team after the got there. Except for when he was injured in 2009 and they made it to the second round. No dis on T-Mac...just facts.
lol why would I take offense to such hollow analysis?

Chronz
03-05-2013, 08:46 PM
:clap:


:clap: :clap:


:clap: :clap: :clap:

what a groupie

:clap:
:clap: :clap:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 09:04 PM
Doesn't matter to me, just pointing out what I heard about kobes allegations

Don't believe everything you hear ;)

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 09:05 PM
touche
I was thinking of the year after but at least Kobe had one of the 2 bigs. I still maintain it depends on the year they had.


lol why would I take offense to such hollow analysis?

Yay! amoser got chronz :P

zn23
03-05-2013, 09:06 PM
You forgot to mention Kobe had the worst team in league history :facepalm:

T-mac's 02/03 team was one of the worst teams ever. At least Kobe had Lamar Odom, T-mac had???

Chronz
03-05-2013, 09:07 PM
If you want to go by only advanced stats and nothing else, than sure, T-Mac gets the nod.
Not only would T-Mac have to stay healthy, he would have to keep that same, or close to that level production up for the next five years at least. So no, it's not only just about T-Mac staying healthy.
Its just speculation, I think hes well aware of its insignificance, just saying its not exactly baseless speculation, Tmac wasn't like your typical swing.




So you are saying that the 2003 Pistons were a better team than the 2006 Suns??? Do I really have to pull up their respective records and how far they each went in the playoffs, or even mention just how much weaker the east is than the west?
Try to follow me, I'm saying Tmac carried inferior teammates in a tougher defensive environment (both with regards to the opposition and league rules) to 7 games, Kobe on the other hand should have had it easier as an individual against such a poor defensive team by comparison yet failed to produce efficient results. Feel free to show me whatever you wish.



Far worse teammates eh??? Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Brian Cook...those guys were all starters that year.
Ok just slightly more awful, hows that?



No I did not see your post. I doubt Kobe will make the cut again this year. Regardless, Kobe is a much better defender than T-Mac ever was even in his heyday and his 9 first team selections and 3 second team selections are 12 more then T-Mac ever had in his entire career.
Color me skeptical

bagwell368
03-05-2013, 09:08 PM
His D was actually pretty solid. His win shares for his prime (before being relegated to a bench role) actually compare very favorably to someone like Kobe's win shares. Both were known as good defenders in their day and it doesn't take anything away from Kobe's legacy so why would it for T-Mac's? His defense alone, which wasn't poor by any means, wouldn't have done anything to discredit him if his prime had lasted more than a few seasons.

Sadly, his career was cut short so we don't know if he would've ever won championships, but purely from a statistical standpoint, he had the best 4 year stretch of any shooting guard in history not named Michael Jordan and Dwyane Wade, and even the latter is debatable. That means Kobe, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler -- none of them could touch T-Mac in terms of production when he was at his very peak. It's a shame he got injured because he very well could have been one of the all-time greats.

Not buying. He had one incredible season, and about five other really fine ones. He could have as I wrote in this thread turned out to be in the 18-28 bracket all time. That' really great, but I don't see him as any higher than that, nor is his broken career the best out there if it was full. Walton and Moncrief looked to be headed even higher. You guys are just stuck on him because he's your guy.

Chronz
03-05-2013, 09:09 PM
Doesn't matter to me, just pointing out what I heard about kobes allegations

Don't believe everything you hear ;)
But I'm pretty sure it came from an adidas rep

Chronz
03-05-2013, 09:15 PM
His D was actually pretty solid. His win shares for his prime (before being relegated to a bench role) actually compare very favorably to someone like Kobe's win shares. Both were known as good defenders in their day and it doesn't take anything away from Kobe's legacy so why would it for T-Mac's? His defense alone, which wasn't poor by any means, wouldn't have done anything to discredit him if his prime had lasted more than a few seasons.

Sadly, his career was cut short so we don't know if he would've ever won championships, but purely from a statistical standpoint, he had the best 4 year stretch of any shooting guard in history not named Michael Jordan and Dwyane Wade, and even the latter is debatable. That means Kobe, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler -- none of them could touch T-Mac in terms of production when he was at his very peak. It's a shame he got injured because he very well could have been one of the all-time greats.

Not buying. He had one incredible season, and about five other really fine ones. He could have as I wrote in this thread turned out to be in the 18-28 bracket all time. That' really great, but I don't see him as any higher than that, nor is his broken career the best out there if it was full. Walton and Moncrief looked to be headed even higher. You guys are just stuck on him because he's your guy.
Your rating tmacs defense on win shares?

alexander_37
03-05-2013, 09:28 PM
Love how you say that, yet don't even bother to read the point I was really making. Well, here it is again...you can't base your prediction for how good someone "would have" been based on their best year of production. That would be the same as if Kobe's career ended after 2006 and people saying that if he went on, he would have broken 100 points in a single game eventually and would have averaged 35 ppg or more for the next 5 years. Obviously, that would be called hoping for the best, and thats exactly what you are all doing in this thread...playing the "what if" game, only it's based on the probabilities of a homers perspective.

Then why are you even participating in this thread... The whole point of it is speculation. You are bashing your head against a wall and blaming it for being there.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-05-2013, 09:40 PM
But I'm pretty sure it came from an adidas rep

I just realized that i remember hearing you're the biggest Tmac fan. I was wondering why you flew to Tmacs rescue :laugh2:

RLundi
03-05-2013, 09:58 PM
Not buying. He had one incredible season, and about five other really fine ones. He could have as I wrote in this thread turned out to be in the 18-28 bracket all time. That' really great, but I don't see him as any higher than that, nor is his broken career the best out there if it was full. Walton and Moncrief looked to be headed even higher. You guys are just stuck on him because he's your guy.

Sidney Moncrief? Lol no. Moncrief was a stellar defender but his offensive output doesn't come close to McGrady's. Even his best statistical seasons don't come close to T-Mac's. Either way, you're comparing apples with oranges with bananas by referencing him and Walton. Stick to both near-contemporaries and the same position.

I don't disagree with T-Mac maybe being in the 20s or 30s had he had more longevity, but if he was still producing anywhere near his peak seasons, with a healthy Grant Hill, he might be even higher.

Like I mentioned, please find a better stretch of 4 seasons than T-Mac from shooting guards not named Jordan or Wade. And if you think Moncrief qualifies, let me stop you there; he doesn't.

RLundi
03-05-2013, 09:59 PM
Your rating tmacs defense on win shares?

An earlier post about T-Mac's defensive win shares in relation to Kobe's was brought up.

Sandman
03-05-2013, 10:08 PM
Lol the same Tracy who never got passed the first round?

Phenom? Going a little overboard there
hey while we are at it why dont we give him a healthy yao or grant hill? out of the first round

Faneik
03-05-2013, 10:15 PM
I just realized that i remember hearing you're the biggest Tmac fan. I was wondering why you flew to Tmacs rescue :laugh2:

you're laughing at him because he's a T-Mac fan?

And yet you're a Kobe fan boy with a pic and '248' in your username...pathetic.

Chronz
03-05-2013, 10:28 PM
I just realized that i remember hearing you're the biggest Tmac fan. I was wondering why you flew to Tmacs rescue :laugh2:

Sorry I dont go around parading my fandom like you do.

DumDum
03-06-2013, 06:21 AM
I wonder who the biggest kobe fan is on this small fry wedsite?