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Losoway
02-16-2013, 03:59 PM
Interesting debate has came up. jordan recently said that alot of the players in this era would not be stars in his era . he said kobe , lebron , dirk and duncan would be the only ones able to play in his era or something in that nature. i feel this era has just as good players

this era by far is way better offensively and more athletic then the 90s era


please discuss very interested in reading this

Bruno
02-16-2013, 04:10 PM
individually speaking who knows.

but there is little doubt in my mind that the super teams constructed since 2008 would give the bulls a far more difficult time than any team they actually faced during their six NBA finals appearances. The early 2000 Laker dynasty, the 2000's Spurs dynasty, the 2008 Celtics, the back-to-back Lakers, '11 Dallas, and Miami would have eaten those teams for breakfast.

The '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics and the '97-'98 Jazz would have gotten annihilated by any of the 2000's and post 2000's super teams listed above. and i dont think there's any arguing against that consolidation of talent either. the best teams today and recently are simply more stacked than they were in the 90's; and the global talent pool has expanded, and todays NBA stars desire to join forces. it's a slightly different culture.

Dade County
02-16-2013, 04:27 PM
Should have made a poll...

Jordan is crazy, this era by far but the big men in the 90's would kill todays big players.

hidalgo
02-16-2013, 04:41 PM
individually speaking who knows.

but there is little doubt in my mind that the super teams constructed since 2008 would give the bulls a far more difficult time than any team they actually faced during their six NBA finals appearances. The early 2000 Laker dynasty, the 2000's Spurs dynasty, the 2008 Celtics, the back-to-back Lakers, '11 Dallas, and Miami would have eaten those teams for breakfast.

The '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics and the '97-'98 Jazz would have gotten annihilated by any of the 2000's and post 2000's super teams listed above. and i dont think there's any arguing against that consolidation of talent either. the best teams today and recently are simply more stacked than they were in the 90's; and the global talent pool has expanded, and todays NBA stars desire to join forces. it's a slightly different culture.not so fast. the Jazz of 97 & 98 put a whoopin on the stacked Lakers both years in the playoffs. i'm not sure the 3 peat Lakers(less stacked) could have beaten them either. once the Jazz finally got old is when LA moved onto the finals. the 91 Lakers i think would beat alot of the recent champs, inculding the 09-10 Lakers, & 11 Mavs, etc. then there's the early 90s Pistons (90-91-92), they could beat about anyone now, or come damn close. the Blazers could hang with anbody, & the same goes for the Suns & Supersonics. there was also some awesome spurs, rockets, knicks, magic, & pacers teams back then.(with centers that couldn't be guarded today). also, you're putting up losing finals teams vs champions. how about finals losers vs losers. it's impossible to find out what would happen, but i'm possitive the 90s would not get crushed (probably the opposite would happen). defense was tougher then especially, so if the rules were played under 90s rules, the 90s would put a beatin on these guys today used to the soft rules

i'll take Jordan era anyday (but i won't disrespect this era like some of you do that era & say it's horrible now, cause there's been some excellent teams & players here too. beats the 50s, 60 & 70s for sure). out of all the recent teams, i think the 08 Celtics would give the best challenge to the best of MJ's era. maybe the Heat too. none could beat the Bulls though

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 06:14 PM
So the teams would be something like this



Stockton/Payton/K Johnson
Jordan/Drexler/R Miller
Pippen/ P Hardaway/G Hill
Malone/Barkley/Rodman
Olajuwon/Ewing/Robinson or Mourning

Vs

Kidd/Nash/CP3
Kobe/Wade/Iverson or R Allen
Lebron/Durant/McGrady
Duncan/Garnett/Nowitzki
O'neal/Howard/Ming


Sorry if I missed anybody just off the top of my head and I know you can mix and match a couple players but man this would be one hell of a matchup.

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 06:16 PM
It's a lot closer then people think and definitely a 7 game series.

Becks2307
02-16-2013, 06:22 PM
Look at it this way

How many Pgs are better than - Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Penny Hardaway?

I got Cp3 better than some but then it gets iffy. I have a hard time putting Rose/Rondo higher than anyone else on this list. Even Tony Parker, is he really better than anyone here?

Hell Tim Hardaway gave you 23 10 4 in his prime. NO one does that now.


Furthermore, who outside of Lebron and KD is stopping Barkley today?

Malone would beast in the post.

Could K.Love/Dwight outrebound Rodman? idk?

I think Grant Hill would be the 2nd best SF in the league (beating out KD because of the all round game)

Ewing,Hakeem,David Robinson and all the other centers would be going crazy as well.

MaloDaw9
02-16-2013, 06:23 PM
So the teams would be something like this



Stockton/Payton/K Johnson
Jordan/Drexler/R Miller
Pippen/ P Hardaway/G Hill
Malone/Barkley/Rodman
Olajuwon/Ewing/Robinson or Mourning

Vs

Kidd/Nash/CP3
Kobe/Wade/Iverson or R Allen
Lebron/Durant/McGrady
Duncan/Garnett/Nowitzki
O'neal/Howard/Ming


Sorry if I missed anybody just off the top of my head and I know you can mix and match a couple players but man this would be one hell of a matchup.

Magic ****ing Johnson plz

carter80
02-16-2013, 06:27 PM
So the teams would be something like this



Stockton/Payton/K Johnson
Jordan/Drexler/R Miller
Pippen/ P Hardaway/G Hill
Malone/Barkley/Rodman
Olajuwon/Ewing/Robinson or Mourning

Vs

Kidd/Nash/CP3
Kobe/Wade/Iverson or R Allen
Lebron/Durant/McGrady
Duncan/Garnett/Nowitzki
O'neal/Howard/Ming


Sorry if I missed anybody just off the top of my head and I know you can mix and match a couple players but man this would be one hell of a matchup.

Isiah thomas

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 06:33 PM
Magic ****ing Johnson plz

80's.

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 06:34 PM
Isiah thomas

Went back and forth with him but I got him in the 80's too even though it was late 80's early 90's.

MaloDaw9
02-16-2013, 06:34 PM
i'll take the old schools..i think they would wear these kids out physically and mentally..

NBAers of today are way to sensitive

Tmath
02-16-2013, 06:35 PM
Jordan was the best SG and player of his era

Duncan was the best PF of his era

Kobe was the best SG of his era

Lebron is the best SF and player in this era

Can we stop with these stupid debates

MaloDaw9
02-16-2013, 06:37 PM
80's.

well if it's 90's vs today you have to redo your list

FOBolous
02-16-2013, 06:38 PM
Look at it this way

How many Pgs are better than - Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Penny Hardaway?

I got Cp3 better than some but then it gets iffy. I have a hard time putting Rose/Rondo higher than anyone else on this list. Even Tony Parker, is he really better than anyone here?

Hell Tim Hardaway gave you 23 10 4 in his prime. NO one does that now.


Furthermore, who outside of Lebron and KD is stopping Barkley today?

Malone would beast in the post.

Could K.Love/Dwight outrebound Rodman? idk?

I think Grant Hill would be the 2nd best SF in the league (beating out KD because of the all round game)

Ewing,Hakeem,David Robinson and all the other centers would be going crazy as well.

yea you can't compared the quality of players from the 90s...and even the 80s...to today's players. outside of Lebron, CP3, Duncan, and Durant....what other player today can compare to Jordan's era?

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-16-2013, 06:40 PM
Interesting debate has came up. jordan recently said that alot of the players in this era would not be stars in his era . he said kobe , lebron , dirk and duncan would be the only ones able to play in his era or something in that nature. i feel this era has just as good players

this era by far is way better offensively and more athletic then the 90s era


please discuss very interested in reading this

Players only look better offensivly because of the rules in the NBA today.

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 06:45 PM
well if it's 90's vs today you have to redo your list

90's vs 00's

And I think my list is pretty damn close. Plus it was off the top of my head, it's not like I put a ton of research in it, just what I remember in my 31 years of Life/25 years of watching NBA basketball.

AddiX
02-16-2013, 06:52 PM
Game was way tougher back than, there wasn't even a restricted area early on when Jordan played even,mod you realize how different thst changed the way basketball is played? What Detroit did to mj when he went into the lane would be a flagrant in today's NBA.

You camt compare stats and players than and now, a lot of what players cam do today, they would never get away with back than.

quade36
02-16-2013, 06:57 PM
So the only people who can compare the two ERAs are ones that have witnessed them. Otherwise you are comparing an era to stats and stuff you read up on. For example I think basketball players in the 70s were amazing, but I can't really say how I could compare them to other eras because I was not alive then or too young to understand. I am a huge basketball fan, been a season ticket holder for over 10 years. I can honestly say that the teams back in the 90s were more talented. The league now is more saturated. There are more teams. And the talent 1-12 is much thinner than it was back in the 90s. Granted there are definitely some superstars now that would be superstars in the 90s like Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan. But the overall talent level was so much better back then.

Another thing that hurts teams now is that players are so overpaid that teams can't keep their talent for very long. I mean you have players like Tyrus Thomas and Charlie Villinova making over 10 mil a year. These players probably wouldn't be good enough to even be playing in the 90s. That along with a salary cap makes it hard for there to be good teams but rather good individual players.

hidalgo
02-16-2013, 07:04 PM
Jordan's era wasn't just the 90s. it's 85-98

PGs. Magic, Isiah Thomas, Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway
SGs. Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Johnson
SFs. Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, Grant Hill
PFs. Karl Maone, Charles Barkley, Kevin Mchale, Dennis Rodman, Shawn Kemp
Cs. Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

probablt left out some better players, but Jordan's era kills

MaloDaw9
02-16-2013, 07:04 PM
90's vs 00's

And I think my list is pretty damn close. Plus it was off the top of my head, it's not like I put a ton of research in it, just what I remember in my 31 years of Life/25 years of watching NBA basketball.

it's 90's vs today.. and im positive your 31 beautiful years of life and 25 years of watching NBA basketball can compile a wonderful list adhering to the rules

Cub_StuckinSTL
02-16-2013, 07:07 PM
if you play by 90s rules today's players get stomped

Sactown
02-16-2013, 07:08 PM
Players today are more physically fit than ever, even though the 90's era was "tougher" I think that style of play would benefit the 2000's as they're bigger, stronger, and faster. Give me the 2000's

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 07:11 PM
it's 90's vs today.. and im positive your 31 beautiful years of life and 25 years of watching NBA basketball can compile a wonderful list adhering to the rules

:yawn:

Forgive me for breaking it down by decades.

Sactown
02-16-2013, 07:12 PM
Plus a front like of Lebron,Duncan,Shaq... Make Hakeem,Charles,Pippen look like fried Chicken... arguable the greatest at each position in their primes... And Kobe, Cp3 aren't chopped liver...2000's in 5 or 6

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 07:12 PM
Jordan's era wasn't just the 90s. it's 85-98

PGs. Magic, Isiah Thomas, Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway
SGs. Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Johnson
SFs. Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, Grant Hill
PFs. Karl Maone, Charles Barkley, Kevin Mchale, Dennis Rodman, Shawn Kemp
Cs. Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

probablt left out some better players, but Jordan's era kills


Don't knoiw why I'm responding to Hidalgo but that team is just not fair llullz, no team ever assembled can touch that one but if you broke it down 80's/90's/00's then you would have some good match-ups all across the board.

Losoway
02-16-2013, 07:47 PM
Jordan was the best SG and player of his era

Duncan was the best PF of his era

Kobe was the best SG of his era


Lebron is the best SF and player in this era

Can we stop with these stupid debates

this debate isnt stupid . jordan said out his own mouth only 4 players from this era would make it in his era

Losoway
02-16-2013, 07:49 PM
So the only people who can compare the two ERAs are ones that have witnessed them. Otherwise you are comparing an era to stats and stuff you read up on. For example I think basketball players in the 70s were amazing, but I can't really say how I could compare them to other eras because I was not alive then or too young to understand. I am a huge basketball fan, been a season ticket holder for over 10 years. I can honestly say that the teams back in the 90s were more talented. The league now is more saturated. There are more teams. And the talent 1-12 is much thinner than it was back in the 90s. Granted there are definitely some superstars now that would be superstars in the 90s like Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan. But the overall talent level was so much better back then.

Another thing that hurts teams now is that players are so overpaid that teams can't keep their talent for very long. I mean you have players like Tyrus Thomas and Charlie Villinova making over 10 mil a year. These players probably wouldn't be good enough to even be playing in the 90s. That along with a salary cap makes it hard for there to be good teams but rather good individual players.


lol charlie villianova does not make anywhere near close to 10 mill. i think he makes 3 but i agree with your statement

Losoway
02-16-2013, 07:51 PM
i feel this era is just better. the 90s era was tougher but this era everyone is faster. big man can actually shoot and space the floor. its not just everyone clogging the paint waiting for a contact layup

l disagree with jordan. kevin durant would have dominated jordan era. this is coming from a person that has seen both eras before youtube and all this crap

Hangtime
02-16-2013, 09:35 PM
This "era" argument is getting old and tiresome. So Damon Stoudamire and Mugsy Bogues can play in that era but D Rose and CP3 wouldn't cut it? Why? Because it was too tough? That's nonsense.

OceanSpray
02-16-2013, 11:05 PM
This "era" argument is getting old and tiresome. So Damon Stoudamire and Mugsy Bogues can play in that era but D Rose and CP3 wouldn't cut it? Why? Because it was too tough? That's nonsense.

Post of the year... Just too many haters out there.

GREATNESS ONE
02-16-2013, 11:11 PM
llullz remember when Mugsy crossed up MJ ? :laugh2:

OceanSpray
02-16-2013, 11:13 PM
llullz remember when Mugsy crossed up MJ ? :laugh2:

MJ probably didn't even see him though.

rocky4104
02-16-2013, 11:23 PM
Jordan's era vs this era?? this era will win! hands down!

Jordan's era will all foul out and will be riddled with technicals in today's rules :D

Chronz
02-17-2013, 12:36 AM
not so fast. the Jazz of 97 & 98 put a whoopin on the stacked Lakers both years in the playoffs. i'm not sure the 3 peat Lakers(less stacked) could have beaten them either. once the Jazz finally got old is when LA moved onto the finals. the 91 Lakers i think would beat alot of the recent champs, inculding the 09-10 Lakers, & 11 Mavs, etc. then there's the early 90s Pistons (90-91-92), they could beat about anyone now, or come damn close. the Blazers could hang with anbody, & the same goes for the Suns & Supersonics. there was also some awesome spurs, rockets, knicks, magic, & pacers teams back then.(with centers that couldn't be guarded today). also, you're putting up losing finals teams vs champions. how about finals losers vs losers. it's impossible to find out what would happen, but i'm possitive the 90s would not get crushed (probably the opposite would happen). defense was tougher then especially, so if the rules were played under 90s rules, the 90s would put a beatin on these guys today used to the soft rules

i'll take Jordan era anyday (but i won't disrespect this era like some of you do that era & say it's horrible now, cause there's been some excellent teams & players here too. beats the 50s, 60 & 70s for sure). out of all the recent teams, i think the 08 Celtics would give the best challenge to the best of MJ's era. maybe the Heat too. none could beat the Bulls though
Less stacked but not more dominant. Kobe is better than having a choking Jones and cancerous Van Exel

Chronz
02-17-2013, 12:38 AM
Game was way tougher back than, there wasn't even a restricted area early on when Jordan played even,mod you realize how different thst changed the way basketball is played? What Detroit did to mj when he went into the lane would be a flagrant in today's NBA.

You camt compare stats and players than and now, a lot of what players cam do today, they would never get away with back than.

So your saying MJ would have had it harder in the 60's/70's where the physicality was through the roof?

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:02 AM
Jordan's era vs this era?? this era will win! hands down!

Jordan's era will all foul out and will be riddled with technicals in today's rules :D

Foul out? Jordan gets more free throws per game than LeBron or Kobe..

effen5
02-17-2013, 02:23 AM
Jordans era, they were just so much more fundamentally sound then this era. Sometime, this era is just unbearable to watch.

effen5
02-17-2013, 02:24 AM
Btw, the 86-89 Jordan in this era could average 50 if he wanted to.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:25 AM
Jordans era, they were just so much more fundamentally sound then this era. Sometime, this era is just unbearable to watch.

Well you have to blame the environment around them. People in general act the way they grown up. If Wade, LeBron, Durant, etc., were born in Jordan's era, there is no doubt that their mentality would change.

effen5
02-17-2013, 02:36 AM
People think it's all about talent and that's what makes them dominant but infact it's fundamentals, there's a reason why Tim Duncan is going to be the best power forward in NBA history and I have no doubt in my mind if he played in the same era as Jordan, he would still put up very close numbers as to what he has during his career In this era.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:42 AM
People think it's all about talent and that's what makes them dominant but infact it's fundamentals, there's a reason why Tim Duncan is going to be the best power forward in NBA history and I have no doubt in my mind if he played in the same era as Jordan, he would still put up very close numbers as to what he has during his career In this era.

Yes but look at the kids of this generation. They grew up thinking everything is easy and they take it lightly. Back then, life was much more different. Nowadays, we are more concerned about money, technology, cars, etc. The morals and ethics of this generation really changed everything.

effen5
02-17-2013, 02:48 AM
Yes but look at the kids of this generation. They grew up thinking everything is easy and they take it lightly. Back then, life was much more different. Nowadays, we are more concerned about money, technology, cars, etc. The morals and ethics of this generation really changed everything.

Which is why the old era would absolutely dominate this era. The players in this era is so immature it's sickening.

asandhu23
02-17-2013, 03:16 AM
Jordan's era wasn't just the 90s. it's 85-98

PGs. Magic, Isiah Thomas, Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway
SGs. Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Johnson
SFs. Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, Grant Hill
PFs. Karl Maone, Charles Barkley, Kevin Mchale, Dennis Rodman, Shawn Kemp
Cs. Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

probablt left out some better players, but Jordan's era kills


Let's not forget Chris Mullin, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Webber, Kevin Johnson, Afernee Hardaway, Jason Kidd.

There are others like Terell Brandon, Derrick Coleman, Cedric Ceballos, Ricky Pierce, etc who are lost in the history books.

effen5
02-17-2013, 03:20 AM
Let's not forget Chris Mullin, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Webber, Kevin Johnson, Afernee Hardaway, Jason Kidd.

There are others like Terell Brandon, Derrick Coleman, Cedric Ceballos, Ricky Pierce, etc who are lost in the history books.

The 80ís and 90ís teams were extremely deep, more than people realize, more than this era in my opinion.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:40 AM
Which is why the old era would absolutely dominate this era. The players in this era is so immature it's sickening.

That doesn't mean they would dominate. It just means they act differently. In no part of my statement did it state that. Very hypothetical, if Jordan grew up in today's era, he would probably be like the rest of them.

Captain Moroni
02-17-2013, 04:52 AM
One thing Jordan does not take into cosideration is the evolution of the game.

When we first saw MJ, he did things that baffled the mind because we never saw them before.

Now 75% of the players in the NBA have the same moves they perfected watching Jordan.

Kobe has moves Jordan never did...after copying Jordan. Its just plain old evolution of the game.

Captain Moroni
02-17-2013, 04:56 AM
People think it's all about talent and that's what makes them dominant but infact it's fundamentals, there's a reason why Tim Duncan is going to be the best power forward in NBA history and I have no doubt in my mind if he played in the same era as Jordan, he would still put up very close numbers as to what he has during his career In this era.

Right, but no way you can convince me that Durrant, CP3, Rose, wade, Griffin and Carmelo wouldnt light up the record books if they played 25 years go.

3RDASYSTEM
02-17-2013, 05:52 AM
Less stacked but not more dominant. Kobe is better than having a choking Jones and cancerous Van Exel

What does less stacked or more dominant have to do with the 'fact' that BEAN was on that same team where he 'choked' against that same UTAH2x/SA squads right? who do you have more faith in, a cancerous VANEXEL or a choking JONES or a cancerous/choking BEAN?

don't think too hard cause it might actually trigger your brain and figure no 'dominant' player sits on the bench for a cancerous or choker type, unless that backup player is one himself right?


psd is at it again,lets go

3RDASYSTEM
02-17-2013, 06:07 AM
One thing Jordan does not take into cosideration is the evolution of the game.

When we first saw MJ, he did things that baffled the mind because we never saw them before.

Now 75% of the players in the NBA have the same moves they perfected watching Jordan.

Kobe has moves Jordan never did...after copying Jordan. Its just plain old evolution of the game.

JORDAN copied air/dunk moves from THOMPSON/DR.J, but he had to me more 'game' ,tho DR.J was no slouch at all, he to me didn't have JORDAN game

on other hand copy BEAN completely raped his game/persona, very diff. than evolution, complete mirrorimage

BRON was influenced by both MAGIC/JORDAN,but he got his own ID ,especially since he changed to no.6 and shaking no.23 jersey

DURANT have a lil iceman but his own ID, you get my drift?

nothing has evolved really,$$$ is just thrown around more in mass mass abundance

players had egos back in WILT/RUSS days,owners were still about $$$$,players held teams hostage,teams did players wrong,fake loyalty was shown then and now, they played smallball in PHX in 90's as im sure in 80's and possibly 70's, NELSON played It also in 00's, MIA jus won a ship with it so nothing really has evolved, well you can count the young shorts worn by STOCKTON and others as a evolution and the arrival/confusion of PER....there you have it, 2 things that help evolve the game that really has nothing to do with the 'game', or actually it matters after the game where all the 'science' can get figure out with the PER to determine the top 'tier'

3RDASYSTEM
02-17-2013, 06:16 AM
Plus a front like of Lebron,Duncan,Shaq... Make Hakeem,Charles,Pippen look like fried Chicken... arguable the greatest at each position in their primes... And Kobe, Cp3 aren't chopped liver...2000's in 5 or 6

Some folk I don't understand

Of course DUNCAN/SHAQ/BRON are arguable for best ever at position just as BARKLEY/HAKEEM are and PIPP is top 50 player ever right? so wouldn't it be more like seared filet mignon vs baked? so JORDAN saying 5 over 1 doesn't carry the same weight as him saying he would take DREAM over WILT/ALCINDOR/SHAQ/RUSS/DROB/MOURNING/UNSELD etc? does that mean hes also taking PURDUE over WILT/SHAQ since 5 beats 4 and 2 respectively?

BEAN vs JORDAN would be like JORDAN toying with his lil twin 20yrs later(like those B.GRIFF commerials)

now CP3 is legit, but ZEKE would destroy him, IVERSON also unless they on same squad,TINY would also,hell M.BLAYLOCK would give it to any of these PG's today,he'd get handled also cause CP3 got game

3RDASYSTEM
02-17-2013, 06:19 AM
DCOLEMAN was SHEED/DIRK before them,with a cable..now I think of it he was those 2 combined with the postgame/3pt shot

who could stop that in any era?

3RDASYSTEM
02-17-2013, 06:23 AM
So the only people who can compare the two ERAs are ones that have witnessed them. Otherwise you are comparing an era to stats and stuff you read up on. For example I think basketball players in the 70s were amazing, but I can't really say how I could compare them to other eras because I was not alive then or too young to understand. I am a huge basketball fan, been a season ticket holder for over 10 years. I can honestly say that the teams back in the 90s were more talented. The league now is more saturated. There are more teams. And the talent 1-12 is much thinner than it was back in the 90s. Granted there are definitely some superstars now that would be superstars in the 90s like Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan. But the overall talent level was so much better back then.

Another thing that hurts teams now is that players are so overpaid that teams can't keep their talent for very long. I mean you have players like Tyrus Thomas and Charlie Villinova making over 10 mil a year. These players probably wouldn't be good enough to even be playing in the 90s. That along with a salary cap makes it hard for there to be good teams but rather good individual players.

I feel ya but on your last post players get overpaid all thru nba history in any era

I recall J.KONCAK or some caliber of his player, maybe DUDLEY was making more per season than JORDAN, yea the GOAT JORDAN at one point in NBA, so TT and CV making that is right on point with what I said has evolved....mass
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ binge,way worse now

KONKAK would be SACRE today, or M.BOL type level, not even a SABONIS type in my book
EHLO was guarding JORDAN, GERALD WILKINS, JOHN STARKS, are you serious? you think this generation is the only time in nba history to have guys who are in the league that shouldn't are barely fringe dleague type? the list is long from 80's to present time, trutalk

effen5
02-17-2013, 10:49 AM
Right, but no way you can convince me that Durrant, CP3, Rose, wade, Griffin and Carmelo wouldnt light up the record books if they played 25 years go.

No because you already have your opinion which can't be changed and nothing will change it but this is how I see it. I don't think Rose and Wade would be as effective 25 years ago and here is why I think this...

Rose and Wade relies on getting to the rim and using their athleticism but in the 80's and 90's Centers (Very talented Centers who played both offense and defense efficiently and at an elite level) were allowed to camp at the rim. The way Wade gets flustered by Rip Hamilton and other defensive players in this area....I just could see Wade getting pissed when John Starks is all over him (seriously, John Starks and not like a elite-defensive guard like Gary Payton), hand checking him, and would fluster the hell out of him.

As for Blake, again, he is so flawed offensive, this guy is a genetic freak but his lack of fundamentals as a big man would get him destroyed by the big men of the 90s.

Durant/Melo I think would actually be fine because they are such pure scorers that I don't think the 90's defense would affect them too much. Obviously I do expect their PPG avgs to go down minimally but I think they would still be impact players in the 90s.

As for CP3, I think he also would be fine since he is a traditional PG. I don't think he would put up mind blowing numbers in the 90s, but I think he would be an average/good point guard.

Now if I flip this around and put 90s players in the last decade by adding Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, David Robinson, Hakeem, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, John Stockton, etc....

You can name any players you want but the 90's were soooo fundamentally sound that I think their production would actually rise in this decade. It doesn't matter how talented you are, if you are fundamentally sound, you will still be putting up great numbers, especially if you're an elite player like the names above.

Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, <insert 90's center here> would absolutely destroy in this decade. I mean, its quite embarrassing the centers we have this decade, mostly defensive minded and have absolutely no offensive game.

As for Jordan, it really doesn't matter which Jordan you put in here....his mid-game is un****in guardable. His fadeaway jumper....just mind blowing how he perfected it. His fadeaway is seriously that mesmerizing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV_ppT8QbW8

effen5
02-17-2013, 10:56 AM
I know this has nothing to do with this thread but one of things that also irritates me is how immature these players are this decade. Watching the Barkley special last night and how much passion he really had for the game I mean its so rare that we have that now a days. I can only name some Bulls players since I'm a Bulls fan first but it irritates me that both Tyrus Thomas and Ben Gordon got the papers they got and they don't even care about winning, and how Ben Gordon currently treats his head coach....I just hate this era sometimes.

quade36
02-17-2013, 12:29 PM
I feel ya but on your last post players get overpaid all thru nba history in any era

I recall J.KONCAK or some caliber of his player, maybe DUDLEY was making more per season than JORDAN, yea the GOAT JORDAN at one point in NBA, so TT and CV making that is right on point with what I said has evolved....mass
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ binge,way worse now

KONKAK would be SACRE today, or M.BOL type level, not even a SABONIS type in my book
EHLO was guarding JORDAN, GERALD WILKINS, JOHN STARKS, are you serious? you think this generation is the only time in nba history to have guys who are in the league that shouldn't are barely fringe dleague type? the list is long from 80's to present time, trutalk

Ehlo would hold his own in today's basketball era. He was a very good basketball player. Koncak was even decent. If you brought of Jack Haley you might have a better argument. So yes I am serious. Also, there is a huge difference between the average salary being like 2.5 mil in 1995 and 12 mil in 2013. I know the value of the dollar increased but by that much?

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 12:31 PM
There are some very good/great players in both eras. With that said I get the feeling reading this board that some posters under 40 years old just do not understand how great Larry Bird and Jordan were in their primes. They were just a step above today's players.

The weakness of today's players comes at center. Guys like Hakeem, Ewing, and Drob would dominate at center against today's centers.

Kobe is great but he is not nearly as good as MJ. Lebron is great but not MJ great.

The irony is that as a Knicks fan I hated Bird and MJ but I have to be honest about how great they were. If you take MJ and Bird out of the equation than the two era's would be much closer.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 12:35 PM
There are some very good/great players in both eras. With that said I get the feeling reading this board that some posters under 40 years old just do not understand how great Larry Bird and Jordan were in their primes. They were just a step above today's players.

The weakness of today's players comes at center. Guys like Hakeem, Ewing, and Drob would dominate at center against today's centers.

Kobe is great but he is not nearly as good as MJ. Lebron is great but not MJ great.

The irony is that as a Knicks fan I hated Bird and MJ but I have to be honest about how great they were. If you take MJ and Bird out of the equation than the two era's would be much closer.

Centers are not dominating as much because of the rules...

IndiansFan337
02-17-2013, 12:43 PM
Interesting debate has came up. jordan recently said that alot of the players in this era would not be stars in his era . he said kobe , lebron , dirk and duncan would be the only ones able to play in his era or something in that nature. i feel this era has just as good players

this era by far is way better offensively and more athletic then the 90s era


please discuss very interested in reading this

The athleticism of guys now is much stronger. But they certainly allowed you to play more physically during MJ's era. You can't even get face-to-face with someone now without getting a double T.

effen5
02-17-2013, 12:49 PM
Centers are not dominating as much because of the rules...

No Centers are not dominating because the lack of fundamentals. If you look at some of the top centers in the league today….when they came out, they didn’t have the fundamentals. Look at Tyson Chandler when he came to the league with the Bulls, he was extremely raw and his offensive game right now is still very mediocre. Same with Dwight, he’s lucky he’s built like a freak but his footwork is awful and jesus his freethrow shooting might be worse than Shaqs.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:07 PM
No Centers are not dominating because the lack of fundamentals. If you look at some of the top centers in the league today….when they came out, they didn’t have the fundamentals. Look at Tyson Chandler when he came to the league with the Bulls, he was extremely raw and his offensive game right now is still very mediocre. Same with Dwight, he’s lucky he’s built like a freak but his footwork is awful and jesus his freethrow shooting might be worse than Shaqs.

Yes, and it doesn't help that they can't play on the paint as much as the old players could. They have to play more of a euro league style in this type of league.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Centers are not dominating as much because of the rules...

The rules can play a role but make no mistake. A healthy Drob, Hakeem, or Ewing would dominate in this era. Dwight Howard, Brook Lopez and Tyson Chandler have incomplete games compared to those 3 players. Shaq in his prime or Duncan in his prime would also dominate against the centers of today. The centers of today are just not at their level.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 01:55 PM
The rules can play a role but make no mistake. A healthy Drob, Hakeem, or Ewing would dominate in this era. Dwight Howard, Brook Lopez and Tyson Chandler have incomplete games compared to those 3 players. Shaq in his prime or Duncan in his prime would also dominate against the centers of today. The centers of today are just not at their level.

Pure speculation... Shaq and Ewing are under the rim players who will suffer from the pick and roll play of today. Hakeem is the only one who is capable of succeeding in today's era more. Shaq playing pick and roll? I don't think it'll work.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 02:04 PM
Pure speculation... Shaq and Ewing are under the rim players who will suffer from the pick and roll play of today. Hakeem is the only one who is capable of succeeding in today's era more. Shaq playing pick and roll? I don't think it'll work.

I do not intend any offense but to belittle a healthy prime Shaq-Ewing-Drob compared to today's centers is almost a comically huge reach in my opinion. Was the pick and roll just invented? Ever hear of Stockton to Malone?

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:08 PM
I do not intend any offense but to belittle a healthy prime Shaq-Ewing-Drob compared to today's centers is almost a comically huge reach in my opinion. Was the pick and roll just invented? Ever hear of Stockton to Malone?

Malone wasn't the center on that team.. I never said the pick and roll was just invented. I said the game is based off more pick and rolls since the paint is restricted. Shaq and Ewing were under the rim players who grabbed rebounds and dunked it. If they played the pick and role style, Shaq and Ewing would have to step all the way to the free throw line and thus not as dominant. I think you are misreading/misinterpreting everything. Shaq and Ewing will dominate, just not better than their prime days.

effen5
02-17-2013, 02:11 PM
I do not intend any offense but to belittle a healthy prime Shaq-Ewing-Drob compared to today's centers is almost a comically huge reach in my opinion. Was the pick and roll just invented? Ever hear of Stockton to Malone?

If I remember correctly, Admiral, Ewing, Zo, etc all had a decent jump shot. Shaq would dominate the paint even with three seconds in this era.

Fired-Up
02-17-2013, 02:19 PM
Jordan is right. This era would be destroyed by his. Look at Kobe. He NEEDS a big man. Preferably offensively skilled. Gasol, Shaq, Bynum. Whatever. It's the way the league is. MJ was MJ because he dominated as a guard. He won titles without a great big until the best rebounder in the league came and it was over.

PF's and C's mean a lot. They just do.

The best big in the league is 36 years old. And guess who has the best record in the league? The Spurs.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 02:23 PM
Malone wasn't the center on that team.. I never said the pick and roll was just invented. I said the game is based off more pick and rolls since the paint is restricted. Shaq and Ewing were under the rim players who grabbed rebounds and dunked it. If they played the pick and role style, Shaq and Ewing would have to step all the way to the free throw line and thus not as dominant. I think you are misreading/misinterpreting everything. Shaq and Ewing will dominate, just not better than their prime days.

They would dominate just as much today or more because their competition is at best equal but more likely not as good. A guy like Patrick would not have to go against fellow hall of famers like Shaq, Hakeem, Drob, and Parrish. As Knicks fan I can tell you that Patrick Ewing was excellent at stepping out and defending the pick and roll. Patrick would defend the pick and roll even further out than the free throw line. I think you may be making some assumptions without having watched Patrick in his prime since you include him in that statement. Saying Patrick was a center who played under the rim and dunked the basketball is also a bit strange to hear since for years Knicks fans complained that he shot too many jump shots. Karl Malone played PF but was often guarded by other teams centers.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 02:26 PM
If I remember correctly, Admiral, Ewing, Zo, etc all had a decent jump shot. Shaq would dominate the paint even with three seconds in this era.

They all did. Drob was like a taller but much better Dwight. He could shoot outside. He could drive. He could pass and he could defend anyone. When Drob first came in the league multiple people said he could be one of the the fastests guy in the NBA from end line to end line. He could really run.

Chronz
02-17-2013, 02:30 PM
Less stacked but not more dominant. Kobe is better than having a choking Jones and cancerous Van Exel

What does less stacked or more dominant have to do with the 'fact' that BEAN was on that same team where he 'choked' against that same UTAH2x/SA squads right? who do you have more faith in, a cancerous VANEXEL or a choking JONES or a cancerous/choking BEAN?

don't think too hard cause it might actually trigger your brain and figure no 'dominant' player sits on the bench for a cancerous or choker type, unless that backup player is one himself right?


psd is at it again,lets go
I don't follow that idiotic philosophy

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 02:47 PM
They would dominate just as much today or more because their competition is at best equal but more likely not as good. A guy like Patrick would not have to go against fellow hall of famers like Shaq, Hakeem, Drob, and Parrish. As Knicks fan I can tell you that Patrick Ewing was excellent at stepping out and defending the pick and roll. Patrick would defend the pick and roll even further out than the free throw line. I think you may be making some assumptions without having watched Patrick in his prime since you include him in that statement. Saying Patrick was a center who played under the rim and dunked the basketball is also a bit strange to hear since for years Knicks fans complained that he shot too many jump shots. Karl Malone played PF but was often guarded by other teams centers.

Patrick is an under the rim player... Whether or not he shoots jumpshots is another topic. I don't think you even understand basketball today compared to before. Pick and roll is 10x more common than back then. He's not going to be in the paint blocking shots, rebounding, or scoring as much. Why do you think centers can't score as many points but have high FG%? Because the game isn't based around centers anymore. If it was back then, present centers would adjust to that system. They are taught how to play the current game, not the past.

PrettyBoyJ
02-17-2013, 02:51 PM
the physical nature of Jordan's era and the Big men as well.. guys who are use to attacking the basket may retreat when they see a 7 footer in the lane waiting to bruise you up.. and guys could actually hold you on defense

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 02:56 PM
Patrick is an under the rim player... Whether or not he shoots jumpshots is another topic. I don't think you even understand basketball today compared to before. Pick and roll is 10x more common than back then. He's not going to be in the paint blocking shots, rebounding, or scoring as much. Why do you think centers can't score as many points but have high FG%? Because the game isn't based around centers anymore. If it was back then, present centers would adjust to that system. They are taught how to play the current game, not the past.

I doubt you have watched Patrick play in his prime 1/10 of as many games as I have but if you want to say that Patrick could not defend the pick and roll than I'm probably going to wasting my time debating it with you. Patrick used to step out on Jordan 25 feet from the rim and force him to pass at times.

Tyson Chandler has as high a FG% as anyone because all he does is dunk. That does not mean he had anywhere near the offensive capabilities as Patrick or Drob.

Big men be it centers or power forwards that are good offensively can and do still score today. Brook Lopez, Andrew Bynum, Dwight Howard all score inside and are not nearly as good offensive players as guys like Patrick and Drob were. If they can score I do not see any reason why better centers could not. Is it possible a lot of teams do not go inside to their centers as much nowadays because their centers are just not as good offensively? Brook Lopez scores 19ppg. Are you really going to tell me that he can score 19ppg but guys like Patrick and Drob in their prime would not score better than that? Come on.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:01 PM
I doubt you have watched Patrick play in his prime 1/10 of as many games as I have but if you want to say that Patrick could not defend the pick and roll than I'm probably going to wasting my time debating it with you. Patrick used to step out on Jordan 25 feet from the rim and force him to pass at times.

Tyson Chandler has as high a FG% as anyone because all he does is dunk. That does not mean he had anywhere near the offensive capabilities as Patrick or Drob.

Big men be it centers or power forwards that are good offensively can and do still score today. Brook Lopez, Andrew Bynum, Dwight Howard all score inside and are not nearly as good offensive players as guys like Patrick and Drob were. If they can score I do not see any reason why better centers could not. Is it possible a lot of teams do not go inside to their centers as much nowadays because their centers are just not as good offensively? Brook Lopez scores 19ppg. Are you really going to tell me that he can score 19ppg but guys like Patrick and Drob in their prime would not score better than that? Come on.

Can you read? I never said Ewing couldn't succeed in today's league. I said the game style of today does not fit his game and he may not be as dominating. Where did I state the pick and roll was new? I said it's being used more than ever. In no part of this discussion did I say Ewing, Shaq, or Hakeem couldn't succeed. You're just spewing your own thoughts into this. The game has changed and that changes how a player plays. They grow up playing into this new system that isn't the typical center game of the past. PG's run the league whereas centers ran it back then. Different game, different systems, different gameplay.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 03:08 PM
Can you read? I never said Ewing couldn't succeed in today's league. I said the game style of today does not fit his game and he may not be as dominating. Where did I state the pick and roll was new? I said it's being used more than ever. In no part of this discussion did I say Ewing, Shaq, or Hakeem couldn't succeed. You're just spewing your own thoughts into this. The game has changed and that changes how a player plays. They grow up playing into this new system that isn't the typical center game of the past. PG's run the league whereas centers ran it back then. Different game, different systems, different gameplay.

I can read very well. I just happen to disagree with many of the statements you have made especially about Patrick. I'm wondering if you even saw Patrick play in his prime. The centers that are bad offensively today are not bad offensively because the game has changed a little bit. They are not bad offensively because they are coached to be bad offensively. They are bad offensively because they are bad offensively. If they were better offensively coaches would be happy to go to them more inside just like the Nets go to Brook Lopez and the Lakers went to Andrew Bynum.

As far as you insults go you win this debate. Anyone that can insult the person they are debating a subject with obviously is the winner.

FreakaNashur
02-17-2013, 03:09 PM
Jordan is right. This era would be destroyed by his. Look at Kobe. He NEEDS a big man. Preferably offensively skilled. Gasol, Shaq, Bynum. Whatever. It's the way the league is. MJ was MJ because he dominated as a guard. He won titles without a great big until the best rebounder in the league came and it was over.

PF's and C's mean a lot. They just do.

The best big in the league is 36 years old. And guess who has the best record in the league? The Spurs.

but they keep losing in the playoffs. the only season that matters.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:18 PM
I can read very well. I just happen to disagree with many of the statements you have made especially about Patrick. I'm wondering if you even saw Patrick play in his prime. The centers that are bad offensively today are not bad offensively because the game has changed a little bit. They are not bad offensively because they are coached to be bad offensively. They are bad offensively because they are bad offensively. If they were better offensively coaches would be happy to go to them more inside just like the Nets go to Brook Lopez and the Lakers went to Andrew Bynum.

As far as you insults go you win this debate. Anyone that can insult the person they are debating a subject with obviously is the winner.

What point of the center is an irrelevant position today don't you understand? It's become a much different position to play than before. Centers can shoot threes. Which center back then would even think of that? The game changed and players adapt to it.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 03:26 PM
What point of the center is an irrelevant position today don't you understand? It's become a much different position to play than before. Centers can shoot threes. Which center back then would even think of that? The game changed and players adapt to it.

Hall of fame players are never irrelevant. If you have a hall of fame center playing today he will be relevant as hall of fame playing guard. Coaches are adapting to the lack of high quality centers not vice versa.

There were centers back then could hit threes but the best ones (Hakeem, Ewing, Drob) very dominant in the way they played so why would they need to shoot threes? Patrick, Drob, etc hit a few threes in their days but making them shoot 3's is as logical as telling Steve Nash he needs to block shots. The game has not changed as much as you may think. If a guy can score in a dominant fashion inside coaches will love to go to them inside. Is Brook Lopez scoring 19ppg on 3's? Is Tyson Chandler who has little offensive game scoring his points on 3's? If a in their prime Ewing showed up no reasonable coach would tell him he had to shoot 3's. If a in his prime Drob showed up Pop would play him exactly the same way he played him in the past. At the end of the day the game is still about who scores the most points not who takes the most 3's.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:30 PM
Hall of fame players are never irrelevant. If you have a hall of fame center playing today he will be relevant as hall of fame playing guard. Coaches are adapting to the lack of high quality centers not vice versa.

There were centers back then could hit threes but the best ones (Hakeem, Ewing, Drob) very dominant in the way they played so why would they need to shoot threes? Patrick, Drob, etc hit a few threes in their days but making them shoot 3's is as logical as telling Steve Nash he needs to block shots. The game has not changed as much as you may think. If a guy can score in a dominant fashion inside coaches will love to go to them inside. Is Brook Lopez scoring 19ppg on 3's? Is Tyson Chandler who has little offensive game scoring his points on 3's? If a in their prime Ewing showed up no reasonable coach would tell him he had to shoot 3's. If a in his prime Drob showed up Pop would play him exactly the same way he played him in the past. At the end of the day the game is still about who scores the most points not who takes the most 3's.

The.
Center.
Position.
Is.
Different.

The league is full of PG's and that's where it's heading for the next decade. Look at how many PG's there are now compared to back then. Centers were so dominating back then because that was the most important position. Chandler's place on the team isn't to score. He's to defend and rebound, which he does. The center position of today is not the most valuable piece of a team. Yeah, it's rare to find a center like Howard but it's not the same as back then.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 03:40 PM
The.
Center.
Position.
Is.
Different.

The league is full of PG's and that's where it's heading for the next decade. Look at how many PG's there are now compared to back then. Centers were so dominating back then because that was the most important position. Chandler's place on the team isn't to score. He's to defend and rebound, which he does. The center position of today is not the most valuable piece of a team. Yeah, it's rare to find a center like Howard but it's not the same as back then.

Nobody said the center position or any position was the most valuable. The center position is different today because of a lack of quality centers. If there were great centers like Ewing, Drob, Hakeem, etc today their games would be very similar to how they played in their primes.

Tyson's job is to rebound, defend and dunk because those are the 3 only things he can do well. That is very similar to Mutumbo when he played. If Tyson was a great offensive center with great moves than his job would include more scoring. You are looking at a symptom and arguing that it is a cause. Brook Lopez scores. He is a center. He scores because he is a decent scorer not because somebody told him that was his job.

You keep saying things that make me question how old you are and if you ever watched the 80's or 90's players in their primes. There were also plenty of very good PG's in the 80-90's. Look up the record book. You will see the names Magic, Stockton, Isiah, Hardaway, Johnson, etc.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 03:49 PM
Nobody said the center position or any position was the most valuable. The center position is different today because of a lack of quality centers. If there were great centers like Ewing, Drob, Hakeem, etc today their games would be very similar to how they played in their primes.

Tyson's job is to rebound, defend and dunk because those are the 3 only things he can do well. That is very similar to Mutumbo when he played. If Tyson was a great offensive center with great moves than his job would include more scoring. You are looking at a symptom and arguing that it is a cause. Brook Lopez scores. He is a center. He scores because he is a decent scorer not because somebody told him that was his job.

You keep saying things that make me question how old you are and if you ever watched the 80's or 90's players in their primes. There were also plenty of very good PG's in the 80-90's. Look up the record book. You will see the names Magic, Stockton, Isiah, Hardaway, Johnson, etc.

You don't seem to understand anything.

The league changed. Players change how they play.
You mentioned PG's of the past but the abundance of PG's today far outweighs the amount of PG's back then. Just like how hand checking changed the game dramatically, the new rules that prevent a center from dominating as much.

You blame the offensive game but the rules prevent them from playing the way they did. If you had rules at your job that you disliked, obviously that will hinder your ability. The traditional centers are gone and that is why Shaq is the last true big man.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 04:01 PM
You don't seem to understand anything.

The league changed. Players change how they play.
You mentioned PG's of the past but the abundance of PG's today far outweighs the amount of PG's back then. Just like how hand checking changed the game dramatically, the new rules that prevent a center from dominating as much.

You blame the offensive game but the rules prevent them from playing the way they did. If you had rules at your job that you disliked, obviously that will hinder your ability. The traditional centers are gone and that is why Shaq is the last true big man.


Sorry you keep pushing the symptom (no great centers today) as the cause.

If a dog is walking on 3 legs, is it because it chooses to walk on 3 legs or because something has happened to make it walk on 3 legs?

A prime Shaq may be the last traditional great big man not because of the rules or the coaches but because there are no in their prime Shaqs, Ewings, Drobs or Hakeems around. Show me 1 single NBA coach that will say he would not want a Ewing, Drob or Hakeem in their prime because the game has changed. Last time I looked the team with the most points win. Those players were great defensively and offensively. If there were centers today with their skills coaches would fight for them. Your centers shoot 3's argument was pretty silly. Brook Lopez may be the best scoring center today. He does not shoot 3's.

Great players dominate regardless of position. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kareem all dominated and would all still dominate. The game has not changed to the point that centers can not be dominant players. There are just no dominant centers playing at this time.

shep33
02-17-2013, 04:01 PM
I think the Bigs were far superior back then, but the perimeter guys are better today.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:04 PM
Sorry you keep pushing the symptom (no great centers today) as the cause.

If a dog is walking on 3 legs, is it because it chooses to walk on 3 legs or because something has happened to make it walk on 3 legs?

A prime Shaq may be the last traditional great big man not because of the rules or the coaches but because there are no in their prime Shaqs, Ewings, Drobs or Hakeems around. Show me 1 single NBA coach that will say he would not want a Ewing, Drob or Hakeem in their prime because the game has changed. Last time I looked the team with the most points win. Those players were great defensively and offensively. If there were centers today with their skills coaches would fight for them. Your centers shoot 3's argument was pretty silly. Brook Lopez may be the best scoring center today. He does not shoot 3's.

That analogy has nothing to do with this! Shaq, Hakeem, and those centers never played under this rule. This rule is certainly a damaging part to their game except Hakeem. When you're under the rim, you have more opportunities to score, rebound, and defend shots. Shaq won't clog up the paint. It's much easier to stand in the paint without having to worry about the 3 second calls. I agree with you man. The centers back then would destroy the centers of today. The point I'm making is that they won't be as dominating playing under this system. If Bargnani played in that era, no team would sign him because he's shooting threes. In this era, they love it because they can spread the floor and leave the paint open for the rest of the team. Imagine Shaq trying to guard Bargnani all the way in the three point line.. Not as effective.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 04:10 PM
That analogy has nothing to do with this! Shaq, Hakeem, and those centers never played under this rule. This rule is certainly a damaging part to their game except Hakeem. When you're under the rim, you have more opportunities to score, rebound, and defend shots. Shaq won't clog up the paint. It's much easier to stand in the paint without having to worry about the 3 second calls.

Guys like Patrick and Drob who had a great assortment of jump shots, drives to the hoop and post moves could not score with today's rules but guys like Bynum, Lopez, and even Dwight Howard who have no where near as much offensive talent still score around 20ppg??? Okay if you say so.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:15 PM
Guys like Patrick and Drob who had a great assortment of jump shots, drives to the hoop and post moves could not score with today's rules but guys like Bynum, Lopez, and even Dwight Howard who have no where near as much offensive talent still score around 20ppg??? Okay if you say so.

Please find the part of this discussion in which I stated Patrick won't dominate.

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:17 PM
That analogy has nothing to do with this! Shaq, Hakeem, and those centers never played under this rule. This rule is certainly a damaging part to their game except Hakeem. When you're under the rim, you have more opportunities to score, rebound, and defend shots. Shaq won't clog up the paint. It's much easier to stand in the paint without having to worry about the 3 second calls. I agree with you man. The centers back then would destroy the centers of today. The point I'm making is that they won't be as dominating playing under this system. If Bargnani played in that era, no team would sign him because he's shooting threes. In this era, they love it because they can spread the floor and leave the paint open for the rest of the team. Imagine Shaq trying to guard Bargnani all the way in the three point line.. Not as effective.

You do realize Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson all won titles under the three second rule?

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:20 PM
To my knowledge there has always been a three second rule offensively, it’s the defensive three second rule they changed in the early 00.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 04:26 PM
It is like he thinks some finesse centers like Barnargni that shoot some 3 pointers is some brand new thing to the NBA. I remember guys like Jack Sikma, Sam Perkins, Cliff Robinson, Raef LaFrentz shooting 3 pointers decades before. Just because a center stands outside the 3 point line doesnt mean the other teams center has to guard him out there. Any player can step out on any player. While any positional player could go guard Barnargni at the 3 point like Barnargni would have a hard time guarding the more powerful centers inside.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:27 PM
You do realize Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson all won titles under the three second rule?

1) Duncan is more than an under the rim player.
2) David Robinson and his 7 PPG with 7 RPG?
3) Yes, Shaq did. His numbers also dropped the year it was introduced.
4) I never said they wouldn't dominate. Shaq's numbers dropped when the rule was introduced. They will dominant but the system definitely hurts them.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:31 PM
It is like he thinks some finesse centers like Barnargni that shoot some 3 pointers is some brand new thing to the NBA. I remember guys like Jack Sikma, Sam Perkins, Cliff Robinson, Raef LaFrentz shooting 3 pointers decades before. Just because a center stands outside the 3 point line doesnt mean the other teams center has to guard him out there. Any player can step out on any player. While any positional player could go guard Barnargni at the 3 point like Barnargni would have a hard time guarding the more powerful centers inside.

Once again, would Shaq be more dominant in the paint 24/7 or guarding from the foul line to three point? What don't you understand? It's not a lie that the rules of today makes centers less important than before. Why do you think people say Jordan can score 50 PPG? Because centers won't be on the paint and therefore they aren't as helpful.

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:36 PM
1) Duncan is more than an under the rim player.
2) David Robinson and his 7 PPG with 7 RPG?
3) Yes, Shaq did. His numbers also dropped the year it was introduced.
4) I never said they wouldn't dominate. Shaq's numbers dropped when the rule was introduced. They will dominant but the system definitely hurts them.

The offensive three second rule was introduced in 1936. The defensive three second rule was introduced in 01-02.
You have your three second rule mixed up.
Shaq won all three championships under this rule, and Ewing, Mourning, Dikembe, Hakeem all played under this rule.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:38 PM
The offensive three second rule was introduced in 1936. The defensive three second rule was introduced in 01-02.
You have your three second rule mixed up.
Shaq won all three championships under this rule, and Ewing, Mourning, Dikembe, Hakeem all played under this rule.

I am talking about the DTS rule specifically.

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:42 PM
That analogy has nothing to do with this! Shaq, Hakeem, and those centers never played under this rule. This rule is certainly a damaging part to their game except Hakeem. When you're under the rim, you have more opportunities to score, rebound, and defend shots. Shaq won't clog up the paint. It's much easier to stand in the paint without having to worry about the 3 second calls. I agree with you man. The centers back then would destroy the centers of today. The point I'm making is that they won't be as dominating playing under this system. If Bargnani played in that era, no team would sign him because he's shooting threes. In this era, they love it because they can spread the floor and leave the paint open for the rest of the team. Imagine Shaq trying to guard Bargnani all the way in the three point line.. Not as effective.


I am talking about the DTS rule specifically.

Read what you wrote above. Yes, defensively, there would be a slight let down, but offensively the centers in the past would absolutely destroy the centers in this era and I donít even know how this is even debatable.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:44 PM
Read what you wrote above. Yes, defensively, there would be a slight let down, but offensively the centers in the past would absolutely destroy the centers in this era and I don’t even know how this is even debatable.

But where in my post did I say the past centers won't dominate today's? I agreed with that but the fact is the center position is completely different than the past. The traditional center position is no more because of how the game has changed.

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:48 PM
And Shaq isnít guarding Bargs everÖ.if would be someone else like Rick Fox or Robert Horry on Bargs.

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:49 PM
But where in my post did I say the past centers won't dominate today's? I agreed with that but the fact is the center position is completely different than the past. The traditional center position is no more because of how the game has changed.

Yes because most of the centers in the league are a liability offensively. I don’t even know what we are discussing anymore but at the end of the day, the centers in the 90s would destroy in this last decade because of the lack of talent of the center position.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 04:51 PM
And Shaq isn’t guarding Bargs ever….if would be someone else like Rick Fox or Robert Horry on Bargs.

Then who is Shaq guarding? Rudy Gay? Amir Johnson? He can't just stay on the paint and that's why the center position has changed so much. Centers are most useful at the paint and if you place restrictions, it certainly affects how they play.

effen5
02-17-2013, 04:58 PM
No team plays with 5 players in the perimeter regardless of who you have….thats just stupid. There will always be someone near the paint and that’s who he’ll guard.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-17-2013, 05:24 PM
Once again, would Shaq be more dominant in the paint 24/7 or guarding from the foul line to three point? What don't you understand? It's not a lie that the rules of today makes centers less important than before. Why do you think people say Jordan can score 50 PPG? Because centers won't be on the paint and therefore they aren't as helpful.

Who are all these centers that Shaq, Patrick, Drob, etc would have to guard at the 3 point line that they did not have to guard before? There is no rule that the center has to guard the center. If Toronto wants to put Bargs at the 3 the Knicks could guard him out there with a sf if they chose but when the ball comes to the other side of the court how is Bargs going to guard Ewing, Drob or Shaq inside? I see guys Hibbert, Mcgee, Dunca, Howard) today blocking shots in the paint. I see centers (Brook Lopez) today scoring inside the paint. You act like there have not been centers that could shoot 3's for decades. You are really stretching things and your point is getting clouded because you keep moving the goal posts.