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View Full Version : Rudy Gay with his second pull up, game-winning jumper as Raptor (VIDEO)



spreadeagle
02-13-2013, 04:38 AM
Only a handful of games, but people who bagged on Toronto for making this trade must be changing their mind, what a difference maker so far.


Rudy Gay has knocked down the game winner for Toronto for the second time since he moved there. Think they like that trade north of the border?

In both cases, Gay was able to use some hard dribbles to the basket then pull up and get a really clean look — this time against a solid defender in Corey Brewer. The result was a 109-108 Toronto win at home over Denver. At some point soon teams are going to start doubling Gay in these situations, or trying to take the ball out of his hands completely.

The Nuggets had time for one last shot but after a pretty much botched hand-off screen and so it was Ty Lawson trying to create on the drive against the longer Gay and the contest on that shot made it nearly impossible. Gay had 17 points on the night but he won the Raptors that game down the stretch.
Vid 1- http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/13/rudy-gay-with-his-second-pull-up-game-winning-jumper-in-three-games-video/
Vid 2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn0D8t3ShRU

LakersIn5
02-13-2013, 04:43 AM
overpaid, underated

Bulls_fan90
02-13-2013, 06:15 AM
Gay has always been clutch. That's not the issue people have had with him.

ambisme56
02-13-2013, 07:52 AM
Same move...likes to go right...bet he misses his next game winner

kobe4thewinbang
02-13-2013, 07:57 AM
He's a decent player, won't ever be a star, but that salary is not a good for Toronto.

Minimal
02-13-2013, 08:16 AM
He made the same game winning shot 2 years ago against the heat.

bholly
02-13-2013, 08:27 AM
that drive to a mid-range jumper down towards the right baseline needs to be called the Rudy. dude loves it.

gwrighter
02-13-2013, 08:38 AM
He's ballin for the Raptors right now. A couple of game winners & averaging 3stls per game since heading up north.

JiffyMix88
02-13-2013, 08:55 AM
I wonder if the Raptor fans still want to take a **** on Bryan's front porch?

koreancabbage
02-13-2013, 09:43 AM
He's a decent player, won't ever be a star, but that salary is not a good for Toronto.

he's a star in Toronto. probably average 20+ points per season now.

All-Star? there is only Melo, James before him. Should get the nod in a bench spot next year. unless he gets voted in by the whole of Canada of course lol

uprightciti
02-13-2013, 09:48 AM
i think the raptors can trade bargs before the deadline and i am tellin you now they are an 8th seed with boston, philly, atl, and the bucks around the same mark

Hangtime
02-13-2013, 09:58 AM
The Grizz could have used that against the Clips in the playoffs last year.

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 10:23 AM
He's shooting 41% overall and 23% from 3. Maybe if he was a better scorer, they wouldn't need him to hit game winners.

dayman
02-13-2013, 10:35 AM
He's shooting 41% overall and 23% from 3. Maybe if he was a better scorer, they wouldn't need him to hit game winners.

Also does other things on the floor bud. Can't just look at scoring and shooting percentages.

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 10:39 AM
Also does other things on the floor bud. Can't just look at scoring and shooting percentages.

But that's what we're talking about, him scoring a game winner. One guy said he's a star because he's averaging 20ppg. How is this NOT about scoring?

I Rock Shaqs
02-13-2013, 10:40 AM
What is he shooting since he came to Toronto and other than all the stat guys who don't watch the games, he is making his teammates better as well.

phoenix_bladen
02-13-2013, 10:44 AM
Also a raptor fan here.

At first I wasn't too happy about the trade as he is overpaid big time and I thought losing ed davis would have hurted us for the future.

But i do like what i am seeing. He's only 26 and can improve on his game.

He just needs to shoot better percentages.

But god i hate that contract............. being a raptor fan we have to overpay big time to get players to come over....

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 10:47 AM
What is he shooting since he came to Toronto and other than all the stat guys who don't watch the games, he is making his teammates better as well.

He's shooting 41%, 23% from 3 in Toronto. What the heck makes you think stat guys don't watch games? Is that like saying non stat guys don't read? FG% is not advanced stats, it's counting.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 10:53 AM
He's shooting 41%, 23% from 3 in Toronto. What the heck makes you think stat guys don't watch games? Is that like saying non stat guys don't read? FG% is not advanced stats, it's counting.

Because the stat guys rendered his presence on the court, ability to draw defenders, his ability to make big time clutch buckets without a miracle play, his ability to create shots late in the clock as nothing of importance because his TS% and EFG%'s were so bad, and they all said Toronto was not going to get any better because hes an inefficient chucker.'

Court presence and overall team dynamic >>>>>> efficiency stats.

dayman
02-13-2013, 10:53 AM
But that's what we're talking about, him scoring a game winner. One guy said he's a star because he's averaging 20ppg. How is this NOT about scoring?

No, we're talking about his addition to the team and how he's played a pivotal role in this teams ability to close out games. Him shooting more efficiently or scoring more doesn't necessarily mean they win games by a greater margin. Other things come into play.

And read it correctly...He's a star in TORONTO meaning he's the teams star, which he most certainly is. If you don't think so that's fine. But there is no doubt that he is the star of this Toronto team.

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 11:08 AM
Because the stat guys rendered his presence on the court, ability to draw defenders, his ability to make big time clutch buckets without a miracle play, his ability to create shots late in the clock as nothing of importance because his TS% and EFG%'s were so bad, and they all said Toronto was not going to get any better because hes an inefficient chucker.'

Court presence and overall team dynamic >>>>>> efficiency stats.

They're 4-2 with Gay, and only 5 points from being 2-4. Efficient shooting >>>>>>> close calls. I just had this conversation elsewhere, how iso guys get credit for opening up their teammates, but their teammates don't get any credit for spacing the floor, setting picks, etc.

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 11:10 AM
No, we're talking about his addition to the team and how he's played a pivotal role in this teams ability to close out games. Him shooting more efficiently or scoring more doesn't necessarily mean they win games by a greater margin. Other things come into play.

And read it correctly...He's a star in TORONTO meaning he's the teams star, which he most certainly is. If you don't think so that's fine. But there is no doubt that he is the star of this Toronto team.

Not because he's scoring 20ppg. He's a fantastic defender, good rebounder and passer, and gets himself open. He's just a poor scorer.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 11:17 AM
He's shooting 41% overall and 23% from 3. Maybe if he was a better scorer, they wouldn't need him to hit game winners.

+1.


Because the stat guys rendered his presence on the court, ability to draw defenders, his ability to make big time clutch buckets without a miracle play, his ability to create shots late in the clock as nothing of importance because his TS% and EFG%'s were so bad, and they all said Toronto was not going to get any better because hes an inefficient chucker.'

Court presence and overall team dynamic >>>>>> efficiency stats.

Don't think many advanced stats supporters said that. I remember most saying it was a lateral move at best because it only ties TOR to his salary without making them contenders. They're bascially gonna be in NBA hell in the forthcoming seasons. Too good to get a lottery pick, but not good enough to seriously contend.

gwrighter
02-13-2013, 11:18 AM
Because the stat guys rendered his presence on the court, ability to draw defenders, his ability to make big time clutch buckets without a miracle play, his ability to create shots late in the clock as nothing of importance because his TS% and EFG%'s were so bad, and they all said Toronto was not going to get any better because hes an inefficient chucker.'

Court presence and overall team dynamic >>>>>> efficiency stats.

+1

It's funny because the most commonly used advanced statistical package is called "synergy" and yet when projecting players using that statistical package often 'stats guys' forget to factor in the potential synergistic effects of adding a player to a team.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 11:20 AM
They're 4-2 with Gay, and only 5 points from being 2-4. Efficient shooting >>>>>>> close calls. I just had this conversation elsewhere, how iso guys get credit for opening up their teammates, but their teammates don't get any credit for spacing the floor, setting picks, etc.

What good is spacing the floor if you don't have a guy whos going to collapse the defense or draw defenders? What good is spacing the floor at the end of the shot clock when the offensive set is empty and you have 5-6 seconds to create a shot opportunity. Spacing the floor does nothing for a team if the defense can just stay at home with everyone.

They are 4-2, thats a great start for a team that was a bottom feeder and couldn't beat anyone. They lost to a HOT Boston team and the freakin' champs, they beat the Clips, Nuggets and Indy. I think its safe to say they are probably 1-5 without Gay instead of 4-2 during that stretch.

What does efficient shooting >>>> Close calls even mean? You replace him with some efficient role player your not winning those games.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 11:22 AM
+1

It's funny because the most commonly used advanced statistical package is called "synergy" and yet when projecting players using that statistical package often 'stats guys' forget to factor in the potential synergistic effects of adding a player to a team.

I look at advanced statistics like analyzing the game in a vaccum. They have their place for sure, but overall presence and a multi dimensional team dynamic, with many different ways to beat you, is more important than a guys efficiency stats. In 2010, many advanced stat guys were telling us the Knicks would not get any better with Amare over David Lee who put up 20-12 on ridiculous efficiency for a 29 win team. Amare comes in and his court presence made us a playoff team. Rudy is doing the same thing is Toronto.

gwrighter
02-13-2013, 11:24 AM
They're 4-2 with Gay, and only 5 points from being 2-4. Efficient shooting >>>>>>> close calls. I just had this conversation elsewhere, how iso guys get credit for opening up their teammates, but their teammates don't get any credit for spacing the floor, setting picks, etc.

I'l take wins over efficient shooting any day of the week. Heck give us back the 4 games that the refs stole from us this season and we're 1.5 games back of the 8th spot.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 11:25 AM
+1.



Don't think many advanced stats supporters said that. I remember most saying it was a lateral move at best because it only ties TOR to his salary without making them contenders. They're bascially gonna be in NBA hell in the forthcoming seasons. Too good to get a lottery pick, but not good enough to seriously contend.

I think if they can add a Pau Gasol/Paul Millsap/Al Jefferson type piece they are every bit as good as the Nets, with some young guys with potential to be very good players on the up and up. Lets face it, small market teams need to strike gold in this league like OKC with Durant to become a true contender. If I'm a TO fan, I would be ecstatic to finally have a playoff team that could contend for the 2nd/3rd round with another piece, than to stay a bottom feeding lottery team hoping to strike gold year after year after year.

Bad teams tend to stay bad for a very long time unless they make moves like this. Waiting for a miracle isn't a prudent decision for a franchise in my book.

koreancabbage
02-13-2013, 11:27 AM
They're 4-2 with Gay, and only 5 points from being 2-4. Efficient shooting >>>>>>> close calls. I just had this conversation elsewhere, how iso guys get credit for opening up their teammates, but their teammates don't get any credit for spacing the floor, setting picks, etc.



Not because he's scoring 20ppg. He's a fantastic defender, good rebounder and passer, and gets himself open. He's just a poor scorer.

he hasn't been a poor scorer over his career until this year - post shoulder surgery. 45% is pretty decent for a guy who shoots as much as Gay does.

he has played 5 of the top 10 defensive teams in the NBA the last 6 games. In the NOH game, he missed a lot of GOOD shots that didn't go down. This is a team that is jelling and playing at the same time without a great facilitator (Calderon) they had - like you could tell from the poor passes and missed alleyups . For what Gay is doing, his numbers will go up as the season progresses. And we know how great of a closer he is but of course people are always gonna be weary of his numbers and bash him for that.

overpaid and underrated is probably the fair assessment here

gwrighter
02-13-2013, 11:28 AM
I look at advanced statistics like analyzing the game in a vaccum. They have their place for sure, but overall presence and a multi dimensional team dynamic, with many different ways to beat you, is more important than a guys efficiency stats. In 2010, many advanced stat guys were telling us the Knicks would not get any better with Amare over David Lee who put up 20-12 on ridiculous efficiency for a 29 win team. Amare comes in and his court presence made us a playoff team. Rudy is doing the same thing is Toronto.

Exactly. They are good tool if you want to compare individuals but advanced stats are prone to more error/bias when they are extrapolated to account for team success. Calderon & Ed Davis we're both putting up greater efficiency statistics but are far away from having Gay's court presence/overall impact.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 11:32 AM
Exactly. They are good tool if you want to compare individuals but advanced stats are prone to more error/bias when they are extrapolated to account for team success. Calderon & Ed Davis we're both putting up greater efficiency statistics but are far away from having Gay's court presence/overall impact.

There are hundreds of intangible and unquantifiable actions and reactions that take place during a basketball game to put that much stock into individual efficiency stats. Each individual isn't playing in a vaccuum.

conway429
02-13-2013, 11:34 AM
He's shooting 41%, 23% from 3 in Toronto. What the heck makes you think stat guys don't watch games? Is that like saying non stat guys don't read? FG% is not advanced stats, it's counting.

can stat guys look at previous years?
He's a career 45% FG, and 45, 47 and 46 the last 3 years.
those are the same percentages as Carmelo puts up, as well as several other elite SF's
it's not like he IS a 41% shooter, he's had 6 years shooting in the high-40s, and a few months of 41%.

regardless if you watch a raptors game you can see the difference he makes

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 11:38 AM
What good is spacing the floor if you don't have a guy whos going to collapse the defense or draw defenders? What good is spacing the floor at the end of the shot clock when the offensive set is empty and you have 5-6 seconds to create a shot opportunity. Spacing the floor does nothing for a team if the defense can just stay at home with everyone.

They are 4-2, thats a great start for a team that was a bottom feeder and couldn't beat anyone. They lost to a HOT Boston team and the freakin' champs, they beat the Clips, Nuggets and Indy. I think its safe to say they are probably 1-5 without Gay instead of 4-2 during that stretch.

What does efficient shooting >>>> Close calls even mean? You replace him with some efficient role player your not winning those games.
What good is an iso guy when the defense can triple team him because there are no outside shooters? Or the big can come out an trap because he doesn't have to stay on his man? Or the iso guy can't get a mismatch because no one knows how to set a proper pick? All basketball players are interdependent on each other. It irks me that selfish volume shooters are the only ones to get credit for "making their teammates better." Players do not create shots, plays create shots.

gwrighter
02-13-2013, 11:40 AM
There are hundreds of intangible and unquantifiable actions and reactions that take place during a basketball game to put that much stock into individual efficiency stats. Each individual isn't playing in a vaccuum.

Especially considering that advanced statistics are partly a derivation of regular box score statistics.

IndyRealist
02-13-2013, 11:41 AM
can stat guys look at previous years?
He's a career 45% FG, and 45, 47 and 46 the last 3 years.
those are the same percentages as Carmelo puts up, as well as several other elite SF's
it's not like he IS a 41% shooter, he's had 6 years shooting in the high-40s, and a few months of 41%.

regardless if you watch a raptors game you can see the difference he makes

Someone asked what he was shooting IN TORONTO, that's the numbers I provided. We're talking about his performance so far in Toronto, with the caveat of small sample size.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 11:43 AM
I think if they can add a Pau Gasol/Paul Millsap/Al Jefferson type piece they are every bit as good as the Nets, with some young guys with potential to be very good players on the up and up. Lets face it, small market teams need to strike gold in this league like OKC with Durant to become a true contender. If I'm a TO fan, I would be ecstatic to finally have a playoff team that could contend for the 2nd/3rd round with another piece, than to stay a bottom feeding lottery team hoping to strike gold year after year after year.

Bad teams tend to stay bad for a very long time unless they make moves like this. Waiting for a miracle isn't a prudent decision for a franchise in my book.

They can be excited that their team can make the playoffs, just stating that most of the APBR supporters were saying they wouldn't be contenders. I think KoB said something along the lines of "TOR is still mediocre, the Grizzlies became irrelevant.
"

can stat guys look at previous years?
He's a career 45% FG, and 45, 47 and 46 the last 3 years.
those are the same percentages as Carmelo puts up, as well as several other elite SF's
it's not like he IS a 41% shooter, he's had 6 years shooting in the high-40s, and a few months of 41%.

regardless if you watch a raptors game you can see the difference he makes

Which means he's breaking about even in terms of scoring/offensive efficiency. This year he's been pretty bad and a lot of it had to do with MEM running their offense thru their bigs. Even if he ends up being something in TOR, he obviously couldn't achieve that in MEM.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 11:44 AM
Someone asked what he was shooting IN TORONTO, that's the numbers I provided. We're talking about his performance so far in Toronto, with the caveat of small sample size.

"PSD, where context doesn't matter."

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 11:49 AM
What good is an iso guy when the defense can triple team him because there are no outside shooters? Or the big can come out an trap because he doesn't have to stay on his man? Or the iso guy can't get a mismatch because no one knows how to set a proper pick? All basketball players are interdependent on each other. It irks me that selfish volume shooters are the only ones to get credit for "making their teammates better." Players do not create shots, plays create shots.

Plays can only get you so far in the NBA, especially when every single team has advanced scouts who are paid to track the playbook of the opposition. Both finals teams last year largely ran iso sets and were lambasted all year for their lack of XO creativity.

People love to toss out Popovich, who is a XO wizard, and say the Spurs never end up with an empty possession and rely on Tony Parker to bail them out. Apparenly Pop is able to call multiple play sets within 16 second or less time frame. I challenge any of those guys to watch a Spurs game in the game thread with me, and I will point out every time Parker bailed them out when the play came up empty. Because it happens more often than the play actually working to perfection for a wide open bucket.

The role players are called role players for a reason. Of course every great iso scorer needs guys who can stand there and drill wide open kickout jumpers and guys who can set screens, defend and rebound. That goes without saying. But they do nothing but take you to the lottery without guys like Gay who can create opportunities out of nothing. 35-40% chance of Gay drilling a late-shotclock iso is better than not even getting a shot off, or ending up with a guy who doesn't have the skillset to create a shot off the dribble against an NBA defender trying to do so late in the clock - thats closer to 10% chance of scoring.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 11:56 AM
They can be excited that their team can make the playoffs, just stating that most of the APBR supporters were saying they wouldn't be contenders. I think KoB said something along the lines of "TOR is still mediocre, the Grizzlies became irrelevant.
"


Which means he's breaking about even in terms of scoring/offensive efficiency. This year he's been pretty bad and a lot of it had to do with MEM running their offense thru their bigs. Even if he ends up being something in TOR, he obviously couldn't achieve that in MEM.

I think the Memphis system had a **** ton to do with his inefficiency. He was relegated to being a half court jump shooter on that team. There were no slashing lanes, no uptempo pace. It was pound the ball inside and wait for kickouts and swing passes out of double teams. Thats not even close to conducive to Gay's game. I think we will see him become more efficient the more he gets acclimated to the TO system.

I Rock Shaqs
02-13-2013, 12:01 PM
He's shooting 41%, 23% from 3 in Toronto. What the heck makes you think stat guys don't watch games? Is that like saying non stat guys don't read? FG% is not advanced stats, it's counting.

Why you so mad for lol and that still doesn't change the fact that they have a winning record since he got there and HE IS MAKING HIS TEAMMATES BETTER!

Tmath
02-13-2013, 12:26 PM
A lot of haters and stat nerds in here.

CHANGO
02-13-2013, 01:18 PM
:laugh: I wonder what this guy is thinking right now HAHAHAHAHA!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg

Tmath
02-13-2013, 01:25 PM
:laugh: I wonder what this guy is thinking right now HAHAHAHAHA!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg

He was at the Pacer game & Denver game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3arqucJn6vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1S3Wrwgok

CHANGO
02-13-2013, 01:32 PM
He was at the Pacer game & Denver game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3arqucJn6vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1S3Wrwgok

:laugh: what a bandwagoner!! Haha! That **** is classic. Good find!

I would like to see what he's thinking or saying about Rudy now.

Byronicle
02-13-2013, 01:34 PM
What good is an iso guy when the defense can triple team him because there are no outside shooters? Or the big can come out an trap because he doesn't have to stay on his man? Or the iso guy can't get a mismatch because no one knows how to set a proper pick? All basketball players are interdependent on each other. It irks me that selfish volume shooters are the only ones to get credit for "making their teammates better." Players do not create shots, plays create shots.

so what good is Rudy gay if his team mates do not hit their shots?

thing is raptors have had bad shooting all year and yet they are getting it down now and hitting shots, with rudy gay. what does that tell you?

Byronicle
02-13-2013, 01:37 PM
i dont understand

raptors have terrible shooting

rudy gay comes in

raptors are getting open shots.

gotta give credit where credit is due

BALLER R
02-13-2013, 01:39 PM
This is where stats is misleading. Yeah you look at a guys stats but you have to look at it in the situation not overall. Also look his teammates. Another thing stats don't tell you is how they play together. Anyone that watches a raptors game now compared to a month ago can see the difference.

Derozan for one has improved his game since we got Rudy. I also notice rudy points out things to the guys as they themselves will tell you that their learning from him. Derozan and Ross are a perfect example. Also the team looks more confident when the game is close. You don't see them with that "We're gonna lose" type look on their face in the final minute of close games.

Also can one of you stats guys how Rudy's numbers through the quarters. Because I remember the Pacer game he was bad in the 1st half. But he went to work in the 4th and OT. Think he had like 17pts in the 4th and Overtime.

BALLER R
02-13-2013, 01:41 PM
i dont understand

raptors have terrible shooting

rudy gay comes in

raptors are getting open shots.

gotta give credit where credit is due

We don't have terrible shooters. It's more we have shooters that need space. Also of these guys can't make the highly contested shot. But your right with Rudy we're getting those looks. example John Lucas III. insane 3pt over the last 2 games.

Tmath
02-13-2013, 01:57 PM
:laugh: what a bandwagoner!! Haha! That **** is classic. Good find!

I would like to see what he's thinking or saying about Rudy now.

Players dream to get a sound bite like that. It really is a classic.

xRipCity
02-13-2013, 02:20 PM
Ask Rudy Gay about his series against the Clippers last year.

Clank.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 02:24 PM
so what good is Rudy gay if his team mates do not hit their shots?

thing is raptors have had bad shooting all year and yet they are getting it down now and hitting shots, with rudy gay. what does that tell you?

It tells you something you wont find when looking at Rudy Gay's advanced stats.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 02:24 PM
Ask Rudy Gay about his series against the Clippers last year.

Clank.

Yea, James Harden sucks too after that Heat series.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 02:25 PM
This is where stats is misleading. Yeah you look at a guys stats but you have to look at it in the situation not overall. Also look his teammates. Another thing stats don't tell you is how they play together. Anyone that watches a raptors game now compared to a month ago can see the difference.

Derozan for one has improved his game since we got Rudy. I also notice rudy points out things to the guys as they themselves will tell you that their learning from him. Derozan and Ross are a perfect example. Also the team looks more confident when the game is close. You don't see them with that "We're gonna lose" type look on their face in the final minute of close games.

Also can one of you stats guys how Rudy's numbers through the quarters. Because I remember the Pacer game he was bad in the 1st half. But he went to work in the 4th and OT. Think he had like 17pts in the 4th and Overtime.

It can't be quantified how important that is for a young team who is used to losing and can't seem to get over that hump. Its exactly what Amare did for Gallo, Wilson and co. in 2010 before the Melo trade. It teaches them that they don't have to accept losing as the status quo.

If you think about it - for bad teams like the Raps early this year, the Knicks a few years back, most games are winnable down the stretch - they just don't know how to win them once it gets to crunch time. Rudy is teaching them how to win those games just like Amare did for guys like Gallo.

nymetsrule
02-13-2013, 02:27 PM
Rudy is my boy.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 03:06 PM
He's shooting 41% overall and 23% from 3. Maybe if he was a better scorer, they wouldn't need him to hit game winners.

LMFAO Rudy Gay said after the game how miserable his performance was and there is athread to prop up his game.

Man how desperate for stardom are you Rap fans, a game winner does not erase the bad play all game against a team that was missing like their 3 best players.

Yeah that will change peoples mind about Gay for sure lol

Hes actually disappointed me with his play thus far, I know hes playing better than he did in Memphis but that was to be expected on a team with no serious potential.

mjt20mik
02-13-2013, 03:21 PM
LMFAO Rudy Gay said after the game how miserable his performance was and there is athread to prop up his game.

Man how desperate for stardom are you Rap fans, a game winner does not erase the bad play all game against a team that was missing like their 3 best players.

Yeah that will change peoples mind about Gay for sure lol

Hes actually disappointed me with his play thus far, I know hes playing better than he did in Memphis but that was to be expected on a team with no serious potential.

Stardom? He just posted a video of Rudy's game winning shot. Please explain to me how that is itching for stardom.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 03:23 PM
Plays can only get you so far in the NBA, especially when every single team has advanced scouts who are paid to track the playbook of the opposition. Both finals teams last year largely ran iso sets and were lambasted all year for their lack of XO creativity.
The same plays have been called for years, you can prepare all you want, a good system will create open shots within the offense regardles if you see it coming.


People love to toss out Popovich, who is a XO wizard, and say the Spurs never end up with an empty possession and rely on Tony Parker to bail them out. Apparenly Pop is able to call multiple play sets within 16 second or less time frame. I challenge any of those guys to watch a Spurs game in the game thread with me, and I will point out every time Parker bailed them out when the play came up empty. Because it happens more often than the play actually working to perfection for a wide open bucket.
Did you watch the Spurs without TP, Manu and Duncan the other night? Thats the value of a system.


The role players are called role players for a reason.
Cliches are good and bad. EVERY player has a role.


But they do nothing but take you to the lottery without guys like Gay who can create opportunities out of nothing.
Having a guy like Gay but no winning role players to make up for his lack of efficiency can take you just as far. I dont see the point in saying something like this when winning/losing amounts to alot more than just how your offense fares, much less 1 player in that offense. You can literally have the worst offense in the league and still make the playoffs defending on your defense.



35-40% chance of Gay drilling a late-shotclock iso is better than not even getting a shot off, or ending up with a guy who doesn't have the skillset to create a shot off the dribble against an NBA defender trying to do so late in the clock - thats closer to 10% chance of scoring
You exaggerate his efficiency in that time-range off isolation I think. I would rather my team not rely on those shots as often as having a guy like Gay would force my team to. At least if Im building a contender.

Like sure my team will shoot a low% in those toilet clog situations but if the end result is that my team shoots a higher% for the ENTIRETY of a game, Ill gladly take it.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 03:25 PM
Stardom? He just posted a video of Rudy's game winning shot. Please explain to me how that is itching for stardom.

Nope, he also provided text to absorb

Chronz
02-13-2013, 03:29 PM
+1

It's funny because the most commonly used advanced statistical package is called "synergy" and yet when projecting players using that statistical package often 'stats guys' forget to factor in the potential synergistic effects of adding a player to a team.

Who are these stat guys you 2 keep calling out? Seriously have some balls and start calling out the individuals because calling out a group when that group can have differing opinions, make you look unsure of your argument.

Call out whoever said whatever you think they said for whatever you think is happening now.

knicks=love
02-13-2013, 03:30 PM
i'd love to watch them in the playoffs

1-800-STFU
02-13-2013, 03:34 PM
ITT: We all jump to insane conclusions over a small sample size which can change dramatically with 2 bad games.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 03:39 PM
ITT: We all jump to insane conclusions over a small sample size which can change dramatically with 2 bad games.

Yup, I didn't want to ***** these trades until the final few weeks. We will see what happens but I was honestly hoping for more from Gay.

Tmath
02-13-2013, 03:40 PM
ITT: We all jump to insane conclusions over a small sample size which can change dramatically with 2 bad games.

The thing is, he isn't playing as well as he could, yet even with him not having the best of games, he is still making the team better, and helping them win games. We should be an even better team when he is playing at the top of his game. You also can't forget that he is still learning his new team mates and new system.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 03:54 PM
i dont understand

raptors have terrible shooting

rudy gay comes in

raptors are getting open shots.

gotta give credit where credit is due
Am I allowed to ask what is this based on? I mean Im watching all the same games you guys are and the biggest difference I see hes made is on defense. The offense has been a lateral move at best IMO, but I can see how that would be a positive considering his newness to the team and because I heard Lowry isn't even 100% yet.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 04:06 PM
It can't be quantified how important that is for a young team who is used to losing and can't seem to get over that hump. Its exactly what Amare did for Gallo, Wilson and co. in 2010 before the Melo trade. It teaches them that they don't have to accept losing as the status quo.
What about when "winners" go to a young team and keep on losing?

I believe in what your saying, I saw it with Cassell mostly everywhere he went, but what you deem important, I see more as a circumstantial influence. You need the right group of players, willing to absorb whatever wisdom the vets have. You can have the best teacher in the world, if the students aren't willing or able to asborb it all, its not going to produce the best results. And overall its one of the more minor influences when compared to overall talent.


If you think about it - for bad teams like the Raps early this year, the Knicks a few years back, most games are winnable down the stretch - they just don't know how to win them once it gets to crunch time. Rudy is teaching them how to win those games just like Amare did for guys like Gallo.
I find the idea of Gay being this wise clutch master hilarious. Quite frankly I dont believe in clutch being a consistent trait overall but there are a few examples that really make you think twice, Gay is not one of them for me.

I dont think Gay is teaching them anything new, I just think hes better at doing what everyone thinks is a good shot attempt to win a game. Isolation. Its not like Gay can teach them to get as high as he does on his release, hes not this guy who sees the entire floor so hes definitely not going to provide answers to where players should be in any other regard but to make room for his drives/shots.

I honestly think your getting caught up in the mythical aspects of the game, we'll see how the legend of Rudy Gay's first Raptor stretch ends.

Freakazoid
02-13-2013, 04:48 PM
Who are these stat guys you 2 keep calling out? Seriously have some balls and start calling out the individuals because calling out a group when that group can have differing opinions, make you look unsure of your argument.

Call out whoever said whatever you think they said for whatever you think is happening now.

He's calling me out, I think.

People like him and T-Math like to complain about people who use statistics because they don't understand them or the context that they're being used for. Just the other day one of their supporters mistook +/- for PER. I don't just shove stats down people's throats, I just think it adds depth and an objective basis for an observation.

The basis of my argument against Rudy is that it's a lateral move.

I justified it by saying:

a) He's a financial handicap
b) He's not a star
c) He makes for exciting basketball but not necessarily winning basketball

b and c, were met with the most resistance because like you said, Toronto fans are just dying for a star. I used advanced statistics to justify my opinions of Gay, that he's a black hole on offense (essentially, high volume, high USG%, low TS%, low pure point relative to other SFs etc) and that he's a lazy defender (to which a few rebutted by saying Gay "locked down" Lebron).

I then went on to argue that the improvements we're seeing is exaggerated because of how weak we've been at the SF position. Our small forwards are among the least effective players on our team if not the NBA. It shouldn't be surprising that a player like Rudy would be able to make us look much better. We could have taken on AK or even Brewer and we'll still see the same effects at a fraction of the cost.

I don't think these views are unfair or particularly avante-garde. Do you?

Eventually they'll realize that they're building him up to something he's not and suffer the same bitterness and disappointment that they experienced with Demar (The next VC) and Bosh (the franchise player part, not the star part).

Weezy
02-13-2013, 05:04 PM
Sample size is small but they have been playing well lately. Knicks raptors game should be good tonight

Weezy
02-13-2013, 05:09 PM
Am I allowed to ask what is this based on? I mean Im watching all the same games you guys are and the biggest difference I see hes made is on defense. The offense has been a lateral move at best IMO, but I can see how that would be a positive considering his newness to the team and because I heard Lowry isn't even 100% yet.

They have always been decent defensively even before Gay. Their head coach knows that when it comes to his defensive system and schemes but on offense they were just a complete mess. Gay improves the team but not by a large margin based on how much the Players are getting paid for.

Someone said it right before in this thread.... I see them as a playoff team in the future but will struggle to get to that next step.

BALLER R
02-13-2013, 05:49 PM
It can't be quantified how important that is for a young team who is used to losing and can't seem to get over that hump. Its exactly what Amare did for Gallo, Wilson and co. in 2010 before the Melo trade. It teaches them that they don't have to accept losing as the status quo.

If you think about it - for bad teams like the Raps early this year, the Knicks a few years back, most games are winnable down the stretch - they just don't know how to win them once it gets to crunch time. Rudy is teaching them how to win those games just like Amare did for guys like Gallo.

Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

Side note: Should be a good game tonight. Raptors vs Knicks games are usually entertaining.

BALLER R
02-13-2013, 05:55 PM
What about when "winners" go to a young team and keep on losing?

I believe in what your saying, I saw it with Cassell mostly everywhere he went, but what you deem important, I see more as a circumstantial influence. You need the right group of players, willing to absorb whatever wisdom the vets have. You can have the best teacher in the world, if the students aren't willing or able to asborb it all, its not going to produce the best results. And overall its one of the more minor influences when compared to overall talent.


I find the idea of Gay being this wise clutch master hilarious. Quite frankly I dont believe in clutch being a consistent trait overall but there are a few examples that really make you think twice, Gay is not one of them for me.

I dont think Gay is teaching them anything new, I just think hes better at doing what everyone thinks is a good shot attempt to win a game. Isolation. Its not like Gay can teach them to get as high as he does on his release, hes not this guy who sees the entire floor so hes definitely not going to provide answers to where players should be in any other regard but to make room for his drives/shots.

I honestly think your getting caught up in the mythical aspects of the game, we'll see how the legend of Rudy Gay's first Raptor stretch ends.

Sorry but your wrong on this one. He talks a lot to these guys. I even remember Ross saying he gives him advice. Like how he should come off screen. So your comments are based on previously speculation of Rudy. I don't think your looking at what he's doing now. Also a few players and coaches actually said his basketball IQ is very high. So what exactly are your comments about him based on?

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 08:42 PM
LMFAO Rudy Gay said after the game how miserable his performance was and there is athread to prop up his game.

Man how desperate for stardom are you Rap fans, a game winner does not erase the bad play all game against a team that was missing like their 3 best players.

Yeah that will change peoples mind about Gay for sure lol

Hes actually disappointed me with his play thus far, I know hes playing better than he did in Memphis but that was to be expected on a team with no serious potential.

Seems like the team is playing awfully well around him, thats what matters. All the stat heads in the Knicks forum bashed Felton for his lack of efficiency all year long, my argument was that he is running the most efficient offense (at the time) in the league, thats what matters. Rudy needs to up his numbers but his presence is felt and the team is playing much better with him there. His lack of efficiency can't overshadow his impact.

D-Leethal
02-13-2013, 08:44 PM
What about when "winners" go to a young team and keep on losing?

I believe in what your saying, I saw it with Cassell mostly everywhere he went, but what you deem important, I see more as a circumstantial influence. You need the right group of players, willing to absorb whatever wisdom the vets have. You can have the best teacher in the world, if the students aren't willing or able to asborb it all, its not going to produce the best results. And overall its one of the more minor influences when compared to overall talent.


I find the idea of Gay being this wise clutch master hilarious. Quite frankly I dont believe in clutch being a consistent trait overall but there are a few examples that really make you think twice, Gay is not one of them for me.

I dont think Gay is teaching them anything new, I just think hes better at doing what everyone thinks is a good shot attempt to win a game. Isolation. Its not like Gay can teach them to get as high as he does on his release, hes not this guy who sees the entire floor so hes definitely not going to provide answers to where players should be in any other regard but to make room for his drives/shots.

I honestly think your getting caught up in the mythical aspects of the game, we'll see how the legend of Rudy Gay's first Raptor stretch ends.

I don't think so, I don't think you acknowledge them enough.

Chronz
02-13-2013, 09:02 PM
Sorry but your wrong on this one. He talks a lot to these guys. I even remember Ross saying he gives him advice. Like how he should come off screen. So your comments are based on previously speculation of Rudy. I don't think your looking at what he's doing now. Also a few players and coaches actually said his basketball IQ is very high. So what exactly are your comments about him based on?
Not sure what you expect me to be seeing since Ive seen every game of his in Toronto. You expect me to pick up on him saying stuff inaudibly on TV? Im basing my opinion on his play. His shot selection and lack of playmaking efficiency leads me to believe his basketball IQ is in fact small in comparison to swings that have come before him.

Blitzbolt
02-13-2013, 10:20 PM
Look the Raptors have been bad for years so getting Gay is like getting Jordan for them.Rudy gets overrated by some and others underrated him.

Also Last year ZBO was down for Memphis and Rudy was playing like this so I have seen this before it end it up with Rudy Getting own by Butler/Nick Young(clips) in the playoffs.

smith&wesson
02-13-2013, 10:45 PM
I can understand why people outside of toronto have a hard time seeing why raps fans are so excited about rudy gay. its because they dont live in toronto and are not raptors fans.

if your a raptor fan and know our 17 year history, you would know this franchise has always been startving for talent ever since the vince carter era.

free agents dont sign here... if they do we have to seriously over pay them and then we become the *** clowns of the league whom every one points and laughs at.

we could be content with guys like r.butler, allan anderson & pietruss etc. but really we would much rather have someone like rudy gay. he isnt a super star and we know this but he isnt a vets min guy either which is what we have grown acustom too.

so please next time you want to blast rudy gay and tell us how mediocre he really is consider the "wings" or lack there of we have been stuck with for the last 4 seasons. thanks.

smith&wesson
02-13-2013, 10:52 PM
Not sure what you expect me to be seeing since Ive seen every game of his in Toronto. You expect me to pick up on him saying stuff inaudibly on TV? Im basing my opinion on his play. His shot selection and lack of playmaking efficiency leads me to believe his basketball IQ is in fact small in comparison to swings that have come before him.

maybe you should consider the talent level we currently have on the roster

our starting C is a rookie and his back up is gray :laugh2:

we have no real back up pg and our starting pg is not 100% healthy

our starting sg is still developing while our back up sg is a rookie

bargs is our back up 4 .. need i say more ??

and were 4-2 since we came out of the closet if you know what im saying. maybe when ross & jonas mature a bit, and we round out our roster we can see how far gay can take this team. no one here saying were contenders but if you read my last post you would know why it would be easy to be excited about the best wing player we have had since carter, even if you dont think he is very good.

smith&wesson
02-13-2013, 11:01 PM
point is our team is not a finished product. if gay leads this team any where we need to make more moves and find him some help. this leads me to beleive that B.C is not done retooling this team.

this season is a write off for us anyways... lets check back in this time next season an re evaluate the move.

ManRam
02-13-2013, 11:08 PM
Call me a stat nerd, but his ridiculously inefficient scoring is going to hurt any team more than his occasional clutch shot bails them out. He does seem to have an uncanny knack for big shots, but I still think like everything else, that will even out/regress back to the mean over time. He's hit two great shots, but as a whole, he's been very average in Toronto, and based on his play in Memphis this year, there's no reason to think otherwise.

There kinda feels to be a different aura surrounding this team, however. We'll see if that's real or not. 4 in a row now, not bad.


But still, this trade will be "won" or "lost" in the future, and the future looks so meh for Toronto now. No money, no picks. How can they raise their ceiling? Jonas is a nice young player, but I mean, he's not gonna be that big of a game changer.

Freakazoid
02-13-2013, 11:11 PM
Call me a stat nerd, but his ridiculously inefficient scoring is going to hurt any team more than his occasional clutch shot bails them out. He does seem to have an uncanny knack for big shots, but I still think like everything else, that will even out/regress back to the mean over time. He's hit two great shots, but as a whole, he's been very average in Toronto, and based on his play in Memphis this year, there's no reason to think otherwise.

There kinda feels to be a different aura surrounding this team, however. We'll see if that's real or not. 4 in a row now, not bad.


But still, this trade will be "won" or "lost" in the future, and the future looks so meh for Toronto now. No money, no picks. How can they raise their ceiling? Jonas is a nice young player, but I mean, he's not gonna be that big of a game changer.

Agree with everything else, disagree about Jonas.

R. Johnson#3
02-13-2013, 11:12 PM
EDIT: Wrong thread

GodsSon
02-13-2013, 11:13 PM
Call me a stat nerd, but his ridiculously inefficient scoring is going to hurt any team more than his occasional clutch shot bails them out. He does seem to have an uncanny knack for big shots, but I still think like everything else, that will even out/regress back to the mean over time. He's hit two great shots, but as a whole, he's been very average in Toronto, and based on his play in Memphis this year, there's no reason to think otherwise.

There kinda feels to be a different aura surrounding this team, however. We'll see if that's real or not. 4 in a row now, not bad.


But still, this trade will be "won" or "lost" in the future, and the future looks so meh for Toronto now. No money, no picks. How can they raise their ceiling? Jonas is a nice young player, but I mean, he's not gonna be that big of a game changer.

Call me a homer, but I think he'll peak as a top 3-5 centre.

ManRam
02-13-2013, 11:14 PM
Call me a homer, but I think he'll peak as a top 3-5 centre.

I was a HUGE fan of him during the draft. I don't know why I suddenly feel different...maybe I am wrong now. I don't think he'll be a bum or anything, I just don't think he'll be enough, at least soon enough, to get this team over any sort of hump.

GodsSon
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
I was a HUGE fan of him during the draft. I don't know why I suddenly feel different...maybe I am wrong now. I don't think he'll be a bum or anything, I just don't think he'll be enough, at least soon enough, to get this team over any sort of hump.

He'll take a few years to fully develop, but once he does, he'll be a stud.

All of the tools are there for him to be an All-Star, including the intangibles. Hell, the kid has among the best TS% of any rookie centre in NBA history thus far.

Tmath
02-13-2013, 11:27 PM
He was terrible tonight offensively, but we still got the win. At the end of the day, thats all that matters.

smith&wesson
02-13-2013, 11:53 PM
Call me a stat nerd, but his ridiculously inefficient scoring is going to hurt any team more than his occasional clutch shot bails them out. He does seem to have an uncanny knack for big shots, but I still think like everything else, that will even out/regress back to the mean over time. He's hit two great shots, but as a whole, he's been very average in Toronto, and based on his play in Memphis this year, there's no reason to think otherwise.

There kinda feels to be a different aura surrounding this team, however. We'll see if that's real or not. 4 in a row now, not bad.


But still, this trade will be "won" or "lost" in the future, and the future looks so meh for Toronto now. No money, no picks. How can they raise their ceiling? Jonas is a nice young player, but I mean, he's not gonna be that big of a game changer.

stat nerd :laugh2:

LeperMessiah
02-14-2013, 12:21 AM
Call me a stat nerd, but his ridiculously inefficient scoring is going to hurt any team more than his occasional clutch shot bails them out. He does seem to have an uncanny knack for big shots, but I still think like everything else, that will even out/regress back to the mean over time. He's hit two great shots, but as a whole, he's been very average in Toronto, and based on his play in Memphis this year, there's no reason to think otherwise.

There kinda feels to be a different aura surrounding this team, however. We'll see if that's real or not. 4 in a row now, not bad.


But still, this trade will be "won" or "lost" in the future, and the future looks so meh for Toronto now. No money, no picks. How can they raise their ceiling? Jonas is a nice young player, but I mean, he's not gonna be that big of a game changer.

Intangibles FTW, when all else fails thank god for intangibles.

Chronz
02-14-2013, 01:34 AM
maybe you should consider the talent level we currently have on the roster

Why, when my opinion has come as a result of watching him alongside a variety of teammates in different systems. If the standard you care about is "best wing since Vince" then I agree, but thats not my standard for evaluating basketball IQ. His shot selection and passing efficiency has been suspect for YEARS. Saying he needs the perfect set of teammates doesn't do him any favors.

Chronz
02-14-2013, 01:39 AM
point is our team is not a finished product. if gay leads this team any where we need to make more moves and find him some help. this leads me to beleive that B.C is not done retooling this team.

this season is a write off for us anyways... lets check back in this time next season an re evaluate the move.
Im not one of those who thinks Gay going to Toronto is a bad move for them, my main complaint comes when people would say Memphis was in the wrong for jettisoning him. One mans trash is another mans treasure and all that

heyman321
02-14-2013, 12:43 PM
I was a HUGE fan of him during the draft. I don't know why I suddenly feel different...maybe I am wrong now. I don't think he'll be a bum or anything, I just don't think he'll be enough, at least soon enough, to get this team over any sort of hump.

That's cause you still have a boner for Ryan Anderson

Chronz
02-15-2013, 02:29 PM
He was terrible tonight offensively, but we still got the win. At the end of the day, thats all that matters.
Sure in the short term, but in terms of PROJECTING improvement and odds of future success, how you win and vs who is pretty important.

LeperMessiah
02-15-2013, 03:19 PM
Sure in the short term, but in terms of PROJECTING improvement and odds of future success, how you win and vs who is pretty important.

Pretty sure that thinking went out the window when Gay was acquired.

ManRam
02-15-2013, 03:24 PM
Intangibles FTW, when all else fails thank god for intangibles.

I'm not sure that "aura" is real though. It could just be a short term adrenaline rush, like the opposite of what the pouty Grizzlies saw.


That's cause you still have a boner for Ryan Anderson

I do love Anderson, but I have no idea what this means :laugh2: