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B'sCeltsPatsSox
02-07-2013, 07:07 PM
Continue the discussion here.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-07-2013, 07:10 PM
I won't disagree with your assessment of Durant at all, but LeBron is not only a better defender, but a much better playmaker as well. He makes players around him better, period. I also never like the whole, "he is hurting his chances because his team is winning without him". Lets be honest, MVP's come from contenders, right? Shouldn't a team that can realistically contend for a chip have way more than just that star player? The Heat would win games without LeBron as well, the Thunder minus Durant, because there are still good/great players on those teams. Maybe not at the clip they currently are, but they are still winning plenty of games. The only time I can say that wouldn't be true was in LeBron's Cavs days, where I think they sink like the Titanic if he goes down.

While I agree that Lebron is the better player, is he having the better season? I'm not so sure. Durant leads the league in Win Shares and WS/48. Lebron has him in other advanced metrics like RAPM and VORP but they have essentially been equally as good this year. And because from a performance stand point, they've been equal, I think it's fair to say Durant is the MVP because of his historic efficiency AND volume. He's not just setting records for the efficiency + volume, he's blowing the doors off greats like Larry Bird's greatest scoring season. That combined with the fact that he is actually leading the league in Win Shares is reason enough to win MVP.

I think it's important to note that while Lebron might be the best player in the game, that doesn't necessarily mean he's having the best season. As an example, in 2007, Dirk won the MVP and led the league in Win Shares that year. But was he actually the best player in the game at that point? I would argue that both Duncan and Garnett were better players than him at that point in time (and more well rounded as well) but Dirk had the better season (not coincidentally, he also shot 50%/40%/90% in 07)

That 07 season is really a good comparison because again, I'd argue that Duncan was a better player at that point in time. He had the better all around game, was a better defender and of course would go on to win the championship that season. However, Dirk ended up finishing the year with more Win Shares and had an insane combination of scoring efficiency and volume that season (I believe he was the last player to do the 50/40/90). His Mavs also finished with the best record that year. None of that meant that he was better than Duncan but for that season, he deserved MVP and had the better season. I think this year could be similar with Durant playing the role of Dirk and Lebron being the Duncan of that season.

OceanSpray
02-07-2013, 07:23 PM
While I agree that Lebron is the better player, is he having the better season? I'm not so sure. Durant leads the league in Win Shares and WS/48. Lebron has him in other advanced metrics like RAPM and VORP but they have essentially been equally as good this year. And because from a performance stand point, they've been equal, I think it's fair to say Durant is the MVP because of his historic efficiency AND volume. He's not just setting records for the efficiency + volume, he's blowing the doors off greats like Larry Bird's greatest scoring season. That combined with the fact that he is actually leading the league in Win Shares is reason enough to win MVP.

I think it's important to note that while Lebron might be the best player in the game, that doesn't necessarily mean he's having the best season. As an example, in 2007, Dirk won the MVP and led the league in Win Shares that year. But was he actually the best player in the game at that point? I would argue that both Duncan and Garnett were better players than him at that point in time (and more well rounded as well) but Dirk had the better season (not coincidentally, he also shot 50%/40%/90% in 07)

That 07 season is really a good comparison because again, I'd argue that Duncan was a better player at that point in time. He had the better all around game, was a better defender and of course would go on to win the championship that season. However, Dirk ended up finishing the year with more Win Shares and had an insane combination of scoring efficiency and volume that season (I believe he was the last player to do the 50/40/90). His Mavs also finished with the best record that year. None of that meant that he was better than Duncan but for that season, he deserved MVP and had the better season. I think this year could be similar with Durant playing the role of Dirk and Lebron being the Duncan of that season.

OKC has a better roster than Miami.. That's why they are winning more games. It's not because of Durant, it's more-so his team stepping up and improving. Take LeBron away and Miami would struggle to get in the playoffs.

justinnum1
02-07-2013, 08:44 PM
OKC has a better roster than Miami.. That's why they are winning more games. It's not because of Durant, it's more-so his team stepping up and improving. Take LeBron away and Miami would struggle to get in the playoffs.

:facepalm:

tredigs
02-07-2013, 09:25 PM
Let's try to keep this debate more so how it's been for the final page or two of the last thread, and less of the single sentence hyperbolic statements that really aren't based in any depth of thought or even reality (looking at you, oceanspray). And in either case I'm full on board with ManRam's sentiments - this is an MVP season that you just sit back and enjoy. I'm not even sure that KD is in his prime yet, but this season by the two of them are going down in the pantheon.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
While I agree that Lebron is the better player, is he having the better season? I'm not so sure. Durant leads the league in Win Shares and WS/48. Lebron has him in other advanced metrics like RAPM and VORP but they have essentially been equally as good this year. And because from a performance stand point, they've been equal, I think it's fair to say Durant is the MVP because of his historic efficiency AND volume. He's not just setting records for the efficiency + volume, he's blowing the doors off greats like Larry Bird's greatest scoring season. That combined with the fact that he is actually leading the league in Win Shares is reason enough to win MVP.

I think it's important to note that while Lebron might be the best player in the game, that doesn't necessarily mean he's having the best season. As an example, in 2007, Dirk won the MVP and led the league in Win Shares that year. But was he actually the best player in the game at that point? I would argue that both Duncan and Garnett were better players than him at that point in time (and more well rounded as well) but Dirk had the better season (not coincidentally, he also shot 50%/40%/90% in 07)

That 07 season is really a good comparison because again, I'd argue that Duncan was a better player at that point in time. He had the better all around game, was a better defender and of course would go on to win the championship that season. However, Dirk ended up finishing the year with more Win Shares and had an insane combination of scoring efficiency and volume that season (I believe he was the last player to do the 50/40/90). His Mavs also finished with the best record that year. None of that meant that he was better than Duncan but for that season, he deserved MVP and had the better season. I think this year could be similar with Durant playing the role of Dirk and Lebron being the Duncan of that season.

Oh you will get zero pushback from me if Durant wins it, I have said its his to lose. I think the MVP award many times is not given to the best player, but under other circumstances, and Durant winning it wouldn't even make me blink, there have been a BUNCH of other MVP's that would be less deserving, and I wouldn't consider it a travesty in the slightest.

The best player in the NBA many times does not win it. I already know that.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-08-2013, 12:03 AM
as long as people dont say durant is better than lebron currently, i have absolutely no problem.

Durant, however, is the mvp fav in my eyes, as was predicted by many ever since the offseason, and while people were writing off the thunder post-harden trade, we are seeing just how wrong they were.

Durant is an offensive juggernaut and deserves all the credibility he is getting.

I am absolutely loving watching both LeBron and Durant this season, although I am pulling for LeBron more for obvious reasons.

Either way basketball will be fun to watch with these two going at it for at least the next 5 years if both are healthy and if we are lucky. and who knows, maybe someone else will show up during that time.

People can use the OKC team is better argument or the LeBron does more for his team argument, doesn't matter which way you spin it, the fact of the matter is, these two once in a lifetime talents are going to make the NBA a joy to watch! :drool:

PatsSoxKnicks
02-08-2013, 02:21 AM
Oh you will get zero pushback from me if Durant wins it, I have said its his to lose. I think the MVP award many times is not given to the best player, but under other circumstances, and Durant winning it wouldn't even make me blink, there have been a BUNCH of other MVP's that would be less deserving, and I wouldn't consider it a travesty in the slightest.

The best player in the NBA many times does not win it. I already know that.

And in a lot of those situations, the best player is wrongly robbed of an MVP. However, I don't feel this is one of those years at all. I do think KD deserves it. And by that, I don't just mean "Lebron's won it enough, give it to someone else and KD is doing enough to win it", I mean "I think KD is having the better season and therefore deserves MVP". There are a lot of cases in NBA history where the best player doesn't win the MVP but A LOT of those times, he actually deserved it. That's why I brought up that Duncan-Dirk example from 07. That might have been one of the few times where the best player might not have actually been the MVP.

Looking back on MJ's career, there were a ton of years where he didn't win the MVP where he deserved it. And everyone knew he was the best player in the league. And in most seasons, he had the best season to go along with it. The only season I can think of where you could argue for someone over MJ for MVP would be the 98 season where maybe you could've argued for Karl (who ironically won it in 97, when he was less deserving and there really wasn't much of a case for him that year).

Anyways, my whole thing is that I hope Durant doesn't get the "everyone was sick of giving the MVP to Lebron so Durant got it" treatment. Because there is a very legitimate case for Durant this year. And as I said earlier, you can be an inferior player but have a better season.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 02:31 AM
And in a lot of those situations, the best player is wrongly robbed of an MVP. However, I don't feel this is one of those years at all.

You think Durant is a better player than Bron this year? I disagree man.


I do think KD deserves it. And by that, I don't just mean "Lebron's won it enough, give it to someone else and KD is doing enough to win it", I mean "I think KD is having the better season and therefore deserves MVP".

You don't think the media is looking for someone else, and with Durant being as close of a 2nd player possible to Bron, it his to lose? I still don't get how you think Durant's overall season, individually, is better than the best player on the planet...


There are a lot of cases in NBA history where the best player doesn't win the MVP but A LOT of those times, he actually deserved it. That's why I brought up that Duncan-Dirk example from 07. That might have been one of the few times where the best player might not have actually been the MVP.

I have been on record saying that my personal opinion is, the best player deserves MVP, period. So we agree here.



Looking back on MJ's career, there were a ton of years where he didn't win the MVP where he deserved it. And everyone knew he was the best player in the league. And in most seasons, he had the best season to go along with it. The only season I can think of where you could argue for someone over MJ for MVP would be the 98 season where maybe you could've argued for Karl (who ironically won it in 97, when he was less deserving and there really wasn't much of a case for him that year).

And here we are again. To me, personally, the MVP is the best player in the league. No exceptions. But this is why I understand, yet call out, those who have won the award otherwise. I mean, how did Shaq not win 4-5? But that is me.


Anyways, my whole thing is that I hope Durant doesn't get the "everyone was sick of giving the MVP to Lebron so Durant got it" treatment. Because there is a very legitimate case for Durant this year. And as I said earlier, you can be an inferior player but have a better season.

Under the criteria that defines an MVP, Durant will have earned it. History of the award shows this. But he still won't be the best player in the game, and that is how I personally define MVP. Will I cry about it, or have a problem? Not at all. I understand how it works. At least he will be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more deserving than many players that won the award before him that were not the best player in the game.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:33 AM
And in a lot of those situations, the best player is wrongly robbed of an MVP. However, I don't feel this is one of those years at all. I do think KD deserves it. And by that, I don't just mean "Lebron's won it enough, give it to someone else and KD is doing enough to win it", I mean "I think KD is having the better season and therefore deserves MVP". There are a lot of cases in NBA history where the best player doesn't win the MVP but A LOT of those times, he actually deserved it. That's why I brought up that Duncan-Dirk example from 07. That might have been one of the few times where the best player might not have actually been the MVP.

Looking back on MJ's career, there were a ton of years where he didn't win the MVP where he deserved it. And everyone knew he was the best player in the league. And in most seasons, he had the best season to go along with it. The only season I can think of where you could argue for someone over MJ for MVP would be the 98 season where maybe you could've argued for Karl (who ironically won it in 97, when he was less deserving and there really wasn't much of a case for him that year).

Anyways, my whole thing is that I hope Durant doesn't get the "everyone was sick of giving the MVP to Lebron so Durant got it" treatment. Because there is a very legitimate case for Durant this year. And as I said earlier, you can be an inferior player but have a better season.

Jordan didn't win it because the media got tired of Jordan winning it every year. It was obviously a biased decision.

LeBron is going to go through the same phase. He lost to Rose because coaches were biased and wanted to teach him a lesson. Durant is not better than James. Durant may be the MVP at the end of the season, but we all know who the best player really is. It's visible by watching them play that James is far superior.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-08-2013, 02:36 AM
as long as people dont say durant is better than lebron currently, i have absolutely no problem.

Durant, however, is the mvp fav in my eyes, as was predicted by many ever since the offseason, and while people were writing off the thunder post-harden trade, we are seeing just how wrong they were.

Durant is an offensive juggernaut and deserves all the credibility he is getting.

I am absolutely loving watching both LeBron and Durant this season, although I am pulling for LeBron more for obvious reasons.

Either way basketball will be fun to watch with these two going at it for at least the next 5 years if both are healthy and if we are lucky. and who knows, maybe someone else will show up during that time.

People can use the OKC team is better argument or the LeBron does more for his team argument, doesn't matter which way you spin it, the fact of the matter is, these two once in a lifetime talents are going to make the NBA a joy to watch! :drool:

If these 2 teams keep meeting in the playoffs, we could see a Magic-Bird type rivalry emerge among the 2 players/teams. And the ironic thing is that there are a lot of similarities between Magic/Lebron and Bird/Durant. Heck, if Durant can up his rebounding and passing a bit more, we could literally have a replica of those days (he's about 5% points off from Bird's Ast% and 3% points off from Bird's TRB% and he's already got his scoring efficiency/volume). And as we already know, Lebron has pretty much matched (if not exceeded) Magic's numbers.

If some other younger teams emerge with some consistent all-stars leading the way, we could end up seeing the league at its most talented level since the 80s. There were some other talented teams like the different 76er teams, the Moncrief led Bucks, Hakeem's Rockets, etc. I'm not sure that any of today's teams will emerge as good as those teams were but if some do, we could be looking at a new golden age for basketball talent. And considering the league was really watered down about 8-9 years ago, it'd really be awesome to see the talent recover

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:39 AM
If these 2 teams keep meeting in the playoffs, we could see a Magic-Bird type rivalry emerge among the 2 players/teams. And the ironic thing is that there are a lot of similarities between Magic/Lebron and Bird/Durant. Heck, if Durant can up his rebounding and passing a bit more, we could literally have a replica of those days (he's about 5% points off from Bird's Ast% and 3% points off from Bird's TRB% and he's already got his scoring efficiency/volume). And as we already know, Lebron has pretty much matched (if not exceeded) Magic's numbers.

If some other younger teams emerge with some consistent all-stars leading the way, we could end up seeing the league at its most talented level since the 80s. There were some other talented teams like the different 76er teams, the Moncrief led Bucks, Hakeem's Rockets, etc. I'm not sure that any of today's teams will emerge as good as those teams were but if some do, we could be looking at a new golden age for basketball talent. And considering the league was really watered down about 8-9 years ago, it'd really be awesome to see the talent recover

Unfortunately I think Irving will take over LeBron's reign. Just watching him play and he's only 20! Once he leaves Cleveland and joins a contending team, he's going far. Durant will never be the best as long as James is playing the way he is.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-08-2013, 03:00 AM
You think Durant is a better player than Bron this year? I disagree man.

You don't think the media is looking for someone else, and with Durant being as close of a 2nd player possible to Bron, it his to lose? I still don't get how you think Durant's overall season, individually, is better than the best player on the planet...


Well, I guess a lot of it depends on how much you believe Durant has improved as a defender this year. Because offensively, I think Durant has definitely been better. Bron is the better passer and rebounder but as crazy as this may sound, there is a significant gap in favor of Durant's scoring prowess. And thats not a knock on Lebron at all because he's obviously been amazing scoring the ball this year. But Durant is just on another level. No level reached by any player in NBA history.

To break it down a bit- TS% is basically points per possession divided by 2. Lebron is averaging 1.25 points per possession (his TS%*2) while Durant is averaging 1.31 points per possession. Multiplied out to 100 possessions, that works out to a difference of 6 points per 100 possessions. And remember, they basically have the same USG rates. That is a pretty big difference there.

Then you look at ORtg and Durant has him there. He's also got more Win Shares this year. It really comes down to defense and how much you believe Durant has improved.


I still don't get how you think Durant's overall season, individually, is better than the best player on the planet...


Well, I think you're talking about 2 different things here. Why does the best player on the planet automatically have the best season? That isn't always the case. An inferior player can play above his head and have the better season. I doubt Durant will ever match this type of scoring efficiency and scoring volume ever again. It's just really hard to do.

Again, to go back to that Duncan-Dirk example, who do you believe had the better season in 2007? And I assume you would agree that Duncan was a better player at that point in time. I just think that you can be the best player on the planet but you aren't necessarily having the best season. There is certainly statistical evidence- Durant leading in WS- that backs this case up.

And I mean, I think if we're also looking at the literal sense of the award- most valuable player-, you could probably argue that CP3 means more to his team than either Durant or Lebron. The statistical evidence- RAPM- would back that up. However, there's no doubt he's missed to many games to really be in this discussion anymore.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:02 AM
Well, I guess a lot of it depends on how much you believe Durant has improved as a defender this year. Because offensively, I think Durant has definitely been better. Bron is the better passer and rebounder but as crazy as this may sound, there is a significant gap in favor of Durant's scoring prowess. And thats not a knock on Lebron at all because he's obviously been amazing scoring the ball this year. But Durant is just on another level. No level reached by any player in NBA history.

To break it down a bit- TS% is basically points per possession divided by 2. Lebron is averaging 1.25 points per possession (his TS%*2) while Durant is averaging 1.31 points per possession. Multiplied out to 100 possessions, that works out to a difference of 6 points per 100 possessions. And remember, they basically have the same USG rates. That is a pretty big difference there.

Then you look at ORtg and Durant has him there. He's also got more Win Shares this year. It really comes down to defense and how much you believe Durant has improved.



Well, I think you're talking about 2 different things here. Why does the best player on the planet automatically have the best season? That isn't always the case. An inferior player can play above his head and have the better season. I doubt Durant will ever match this type of scoring efficiency and scoring volume ever again. It's just really hard to do.

Again, to go back to that Duncan-Dirk example, who do you believe had the better season in 2007? And I assume you would agree that Duncan was a better player at that point in time. I just think that you can be the best player on the planet but you aren't necessarily having the best season. There is certainly statistical evidence- Durant leading in WS- that backs this case up.

And I mean, I think if we're also looking at the literal sense of the award- most valuable player-, you could probably argue that CP3 means more to his team than either Durant or Lebron. The statistical evidence- RAPM- would back that up. However, there's no doubt he's missed to many games to really be in this discussion anymore.

Because the best player is always the most valuable player in NBA simply because he's the best.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-08-2013, 03:06 AM
Unfortunately I think Irving will take over LeBron's reign. Just watching him play and he's only 20! Once he leaves Cleveland and joins a contending team, he's going far. Durant will never be the best as long as James is playing the way he is.

Durant has made some pretty big strides over the last few years. If he keeps rapidly improving the way he is, maybe he can eventually get to Lebron's level. Would I bet on it? No but it certainly is possible. For whatever limitations he has in comparison to Lebron as a passer, he'll have to make up with his scoring efficiency. And Durant certainly has the length to maybe eventually reach Lebron's defensive level (although he'll never have Lebron's strength- which obviously comes in handy when defending the post).

Considering Durant is 4 years younger than Lebron, I think he will eventually pass Lebron as the best player in the game, simply due to being much younger (maybe when Lebron is 32 and Durant is 28).

PatsSoxKnicks
02-08-2013, 03:14 AM
Because the best player is always the most valuable player in NBA simply because he's the best.

Best and most valuable don't mean the same thing though. Neither does being the best player and having the best season.

I'll give another example, Tyson Chandler is having a better season than Dwight Howard. But does that mean he's the better player? No, obviously not. An inferior player can have a better season than a superior player.

As I mentioned, in 2007, Duncan was better than Dirk. But Dirk had the better regular season and ended up winning MVP. But of course, Duncan ended up winning the ship and ultimately ended up showing why he was better in the playoffs. I could see something like that happening again.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:29 AM
Durant has made some pretty big strides over the last few years. If he keeps rapidly improving the way he is, maybe he can eventually get to Lebron's level. Would I bet on it? No but it certainly is possible. For whatever limitations he has in comparison to Lebron as a passer, he'll have to make up with his scoring efficiency. And Durant certainly has the length to maybe eventually reach Lebron's defensive level (although he'll never have Lebron's strength- which obviously comes in handy when defending the post).

Considering Durant is 4 years younger than Lebron, I think he will eventually pass Lebron as the best player in the game, simply due to being much younger (maybe when Lebron is 32 and Durant is 28).

Comparing Durant to LeBron when they were both 24, LeBron was better than him.

Hawkize31
02-08-2013, 03:44 AM
Because the best player is always the most valuable player in NBA simply because he's the best.

I agree with this. I don't understand the argument that you often see: yes player X was better, but player Y should be MVP. If you are the best, if you are at the very top of the amazing collection of talent that is the NBA, you should be recognized as the MVP. I don't care about the gushy story (thats what the ESPYs are for), don't care too much about the team record (that's what championships are for). MVP is simply about providing more value to your team than anyone else provides to theirs, and in sports, you do that by being the best player.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 04:00 AM
Best and most valuable don't mean the same thing though. Neither does being the best player and having the best season.

I'll give another example, Tyson Chandler is having a better season than Dwight Howard. But does that mean he's the better player? No, obviously not. An inferior player can have a better season than a superior player.

As I mentioned, in 2007, Duncan was better than Dirk. But Dirk had the better regular season and ended up winning MVP. But of course, Duncan ended up winning the ship and ultimately ended up showing why he was better in the playoffs. I could see something like that happening again.

Tyson is not having a better season than Howard. People say Howard sucks because he's not playing as good as he used to. That's not saying he still isn't the best center. I can guarantee NYK would take Howard in a heartbeat for Chandler.

As I stated before, the best player is the one who plays the best. He's the one who leads his team day in and day out. He's the one who brings the most to his team each and every game. LeBron has yet to have one game where he hasn't been the best on his team. He leads his team in PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG. He defends the best opposing player 24/7, Durant doesn't. If Durant wins, it's because of the media. Not to say Durant doesn't deserve it, he just doesn't offer as much as LeBron can.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Tyson is not having a better season than Howard. People say Howard sucks because he's not playing as good as he used to. That's not saying he still isn't the best center. I can guarantee NYK would take Howard in a heartbeat for Chandler.

As I stated before, the best player is the one who plays the best. He's the one who leads his team day in and day out. He's the one who brings the most to his team each and every game. LeBron has yet to have one game where he hasn't been the best on his team. He leads his team in PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG. He defends the best opposing player 24/7, Durant doesn't. If Durant wins, it's because of the media. Not to say Durant doesn't deserve it, he just doesn't offer as much as LeBron can.

Again, it seems you're failing to grasp a simple concept. Tyson IS having a better season than Dwight. There's no question about it. However, he is not at all better than Dwight (I agree with you there). And I agree that if the Knicks had a chance to land Dwight for Tyson, they no doubt pull the deal off no questions asked. And yes, Dwight is still the best Center in the league. Again, no question about it.

BUT that doesn't mean Dwight is having a better year than Tyson. For one, Dwight is having a down year due to that injury and his impact on defense has not been the same as a result. The Lakers rank only 19th in defensive rating which is unheard of for a Dwight Howard led team. Tyson has more Win Shares this year, he has a higher PER, has a higher ORB% and TRB% (Dwight's TRB% rate is down significantly in particular), he's got a lower significantly lower TOV% (another area where Dwight usually beats Chandler) and his teams' defense has been better (neither team really has good defenders around them). Tyson is having a better year simply because Dwight is coming back from an injury and hasn't been the same player this year, while Tyson is having arguably a career best year. Does that mean that Tyson is a better player? Not at all.

I don't understand whats so hard to grasp about this concept. Great players have down years where an inferior player may sometimes be having a better season (not saying Lebron is having a down year because he's clearly not).

If that example is too complicated, I'll simplify it even more. Kyrie Irving is having a better season than Derrick Rose but does that mean Irving is the better player? No. I think thats a fairly clear cut example- Rose hasn't played a game this season so he clearly can't be having a better season than Irving. However, as a player, Rose is still clearly better (despite the advances Kyrie has made as a player).

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-08-2013, 02:15 PM
i guess that 13-14 FG kinda helped lebron's case for mvp cos on nba.com he's 1, with Paul George gettin some love(10)

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Again, it seems you're failing to grasp a simple concept. Tyson IS having a better season than Dwight. There's no question about it. However, he is not at all better than Dwight (I agree with you there). And I agree that if the Knicks had a chance to land Dwight for Tyson, they no doubt pull the deal off no questions asked. And yes, Dwight is still the best Center in the league. Again, no question about it.

BUT that doesn't mean Dwight is having a better year than Tyson. For one, Dwight is having a down year due to that injury and his impact on defense has not been the same as a result. The Lakers rank only 19th in defensive rating which is unheard of for a Dwight Howard led team. Tyson has more Win Shares this year, he has a higher PER, has a higher ORB% and TRB% (Dwight's TRB% rate is down significantly in particular), he's got a lower significantly lower TOV% (another area where Dwight usually beats Chandler) and his teams' defense has been better (neither team really has good defenders around them). Tyson is having a better year simply because Dwight is coming back from an injury and hasn't been the same player this year, while Tyson is having arguably a career best year. Does that mean that Tyson is a better player? Not at all.

I don't understand whats so hard to grasp about this concept. Great players have down years where an inferior player may sometimes be having a better season (not saying Lebron is having a down year because he's clearly not).

If that example is too complicated, I'll simplify it even more. Kyrie Irving is having a better season than Derrick Rose but does that mean Irving is the better player? No. I think thats a fairly clear cut example- Rose hasn't played a game this season so he clearly can't be having a better season than Irving. However, as a player, Rose is still clearly better (despite the advances Kyrie has made as a player).

He is having a better season because he has a better team. In no way is Chandler a better player in his own right. Him having a better season is due to his team actually playing well.

IKnowHoops
02-08-2013, 04:53 PM
Ive seen the 1,000's of different stats that people are showing. When I look at the numbers. Lebron looks like he is having the better season statistically. Its as close as I have ever seen, but Lebron is doing more statistically for his team.

IKnowHoops
02-08-2013, 04:55 PM
Picking between Lebron and KD for MVP is like picking between Adrian Peterson and Peyton Manning for comeback player of the year.

IKnowHoops
02-08-2013, 05:14 PM
Hollinger Stats - Player Efficiency Rating - Qualified Players
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
1 LeBron James, MIA 46 38.7 .625 22.2 9.3 27.9 4.1 21.0 12.9 30.62 534.0 17.8
2 Kevin Durant, OKC 49 39.1 .653 14.6 10.8 27.3 1.7 19.3 11.1 29.07 531.2 17.7

OK so me looking at these stats, I see that TS% is the only stat out of the eight stats measured that Durant is leading Lebron. I am not arguing, but rather asking one of you guys that sees Durant as having the better year statistically, how these numbers reflect that? I'm still learning so bear with me.

IKnowHoops
02-08-2013, 05:26 PM
Player Name Tm Pos GP Min USG TS% %Ast AR TOR ORR DRR TRR EFF WS AWS PER APER
LeBron James MIA SF 44 38.8 29.91 61.8 38.8 22.25 9.06 4.2 21.0 13.0 31.39 14.93 12.42 30.48 31.69
Kevin Durant OKC SF 46 39.4 29.50 65.3 52.4 14.99 10.72 1.7 19.0 11.0 30.89 13.89 11.69 29.11 29.64

Again, I found this on Hoop data and the only stat Durant is leading is TS%, Ive heard people saying hes leading in WS but he is not. So again I ask, how is Durant having a better season when he leads Lebron in only 1 out of 12 statistical categories. Not arguing, just want an explanation on to how these stats bring you to the conclusion that Durant is having a better year. Thank you kind sirs.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 05:45 PM
Man, I don't want to hear it about win shares. Last year LeBron led the league in win shares. Who's better? LeBron this year or last year? Exactly. Win shares has nothing to do with individual effort.

zn23
02-08-2013, 09:28 PM
Kobe is making a great case for MVP tonight. Don't sleep on him.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 10:04 PM
If you are watching Miami vs LAC right now, I think you have your answer.

justinnum1
02-08-2013, 11:59 PM
Kobe is making a great case for MVP tonight. Don't sleep on him.

llullz



Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups, Eric Bledsoe, Lamar Odom and Jamal Crawford needed 34 shots to score 30. LeBron needed 11.
:cool:

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-09-2013, 01:02 AM
LeBron, if he can maintain his averages, will be in an elite group of players who shot .55FG for the season, and shot .40 from 3. (to qualify they had to attempt at least 100 3s).

that list has only one person in it.. Chris Mullin lol

stawka
02-09-2013, 01:21 AM
DaBron James has scored off 37 of his last 47 FGA's lol. Mother. ****ing. Beast!

naps
02-09-2013, 03:33 AM
David Aldridge picks his mid season MVP (http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/30/david-aldridge-lebron-james-midseason-mvp.nba/index.html) and he says it's not even close. He also says this is the guy who is going to win the award at the end of the year. I believe DA is one of the actual voters of the race.

DanG
02-09-2013, 05:52 AM
Aldridge is basically saying the best player in the league has to be the MVP. Has D-Rose ever been the best player in the league?


It's gonna be between LBJ and Durant and IT IS VERY CLOSE.

justinnum1
02-09-2013, 08:50 AM
One interesting factor a play here is the voters have a chance to create history by giving to lebron here. The best player in the league winning his 4th mvp in 5 years is just as big a story as durant winning his first imo. Especially when lebron has a chance to win more than MVP's than jordan.

StarvingKnick22
02-09-2013, 09:32 AM
Well, where's the link to the race?

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-09-2013, 10:15 AM
Well, where's the link to the race?

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-09-2013, 10:17 AM
David Aldridge picks his mid season MVP (http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/30/david-aldridge-lebron-james-midseason-mvp.nba/index.html) and he says it's not even close. He also says this is the guy who is going to win the award at the end of the year. I believe DA is one of the actual voters of the race.

:cool:

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-09-2013, 10:21 AM
DAMNNNNNNNN Lebron's WS/48 is at .297, shooting 56%, 42% from 3 lol this guy is so dam good.
26.9 ppg/ 8.1 rebounds/ 6.9 assists/ and a career tying-best 3.0 turnovers a game

Best player in the Earth? of course.
but he's on another galaxy right now lol

naps
02-09-2013, 11:02 AM
Aldridge is basically saying the best player in the league has to be the MVP. Has D-Rose ever been the best player in the league?


It's gonna be between LBJ and Durant and IT IS VERY CLOSE.

Derrick Rose was a different story. Bulls had a big turnaround and nobody expected they would be the #1 seed that year and LeBron was the most the most hated man on planet earth and beyond throughout that season. Rose was the hot and automatic choice. Durant's situation has nothing common with Rose's. In no way am I saying though Durant shouldn't win it. I also do think it's pretty close and could go either way. I just disagree with the bunch on this thread who keep saying/acting as if Durant is almost guaranteed to win it. I think it's going to be one of the closest races ever.

I just mentioned what Aldridge said and the guy actually has a vote. I am sure he knows a lot of people who have votes and are of similar opinion. Voters may not necessarily think the way PSD'ers thinking. Like DA said Durant has improved a lot but he's still ways behind LeBron and it (better player) matters in MVP voting when the teams are close in talent level.

ManRam
02-09-2013, 11:36 AM
I think I'm willing to vault Tony Parker up to #3.

It's been "No Duncan, No Problem" for Tony and the Spurs lately. "No Manu either? No Problem".

Parker has been SENSATIONAL lately without either of those guys. Duncan is amazing, but TP is far more valuable to that team right now.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-09-2013, 11:59 AM
I think I'm willing to vault Tony Parker up to #3.

It's been "No Duncan, No Problem" for Tony and the Spurs lately. "No Manu either? No Problem".

Parker has been SENSATIONAL lately without either of those guys. Duncan is amazing, but TP is far more valuable to that team right now.

id stick parker at 4 just behind melo. with cp3 at 5.

BklynKnicks3
02-09-2013, 12:19 PM
Melo with another mvp gem but awar dwill go to a guy playing on a all star team lebron or kd

ManRam
02-09-2013, 12:21 PM
Melo with another mvp gem but awar dwill go to a guy playing on a all star team lebron or kd

Or just to a better player...

But yeah. The award probably isn't going to Melo. You are correct.


Actually, I'm curious. If Melo had an "MVP gem", how would you classify LeBron's game yesterday?

BklynKnicks3
02-09-2013, 12:47 PM
great game by the best player on a great team. Game was a blow out alot easier to shoot a high % when u have another usperstar

ClearSoulForce
02-09-2013, 01:08 PM
great game by the best player on a great team. Game was a blow out alot easier to shoot a high % when u have another usperstar

Lol just stop. Carmelo isn't even close to LeBron and Durant. Carmelo had like a 2 week stretch where he shot in the 30% range lmao.

Carmelo scores inefficiently and he does nothing else.

OceanSpray
02-09-2013, 01:14 PM
Carmelo's FG% is terrible. He isn't rebounding. What is so special about him this year? other than his improvement in defense, he's been the same player. He can drop 40 but give you 8-30 the next day. LeBron and Durant on the other hand are always consistent. I have yet to see a bad game from either of them this season!

It's not even close.. LeBron never fails to amaze me!

justinnum1
02-09-2013, 01:41 PM
Lebron or Durant. And from the voting people I have seen its been lebron at this point. When you are as good as he has been I think it's hard to factor in other variables. Lebron is playing at such an incredibly high level on both ends.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-09-2013, 02:03 PM
There's a famous quote from the 19th-century Japanese painter Hokusai (see his The Great Wave off Kanagawa): "From the age of 6 I had a mania for drawing the shapes of things. When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern of nature, of animals, of plants, of trees, birds, fish and insects. When I am 80 you will see real progress. At 90 I shall have cut my way deeply into the mystery of life itself. At 100, I shall be a marvelous artist. At 110, everything I create; a dot, a line, will jump to life as never before."

LeBron seems to want to modify this quote to: "When I was 20, I'd get to 30 points on 26 shots; when I was 24, I'd get to 30 on 18 shots; now at 28, I get 30 points on 11 shots; when I am 32, I'll simply walk out on the court and 30 points will appear on the scoreboard."

BklynKnicks3
02-09-2013, 04:03 PM
amazing how all of u dont realize how much easier it is to shoot higher % when u have another guy who demands respect of the other defense. The heat are 1.5 games better then knicks with bosh n wade.

ManRam
02-09-2013, 04:16 PM
amazing how all of u dont realize how much easier it is to shoot higher % when u have another guy who demands respect of the other defense. The heat are 1.5 games better then knicks with bosh n wade.

Sure. It does.

Thing is, in LeBron's INSANE run of late, almost 70% of his baskets have been unassisted. He's doing the bulk of this on his own; setting himself up. Having Wade helps for sure...as does having the **** ton of three point threats Melo has. Melo's FGs made are assisted 42.5% of the time, for comparison's sake. It's not like LeBron's getting wide open because of other people's efforts...he's doing this mostly by himself...and does more on himself than Melo actually does.

Let's not act like the difference between 45% and 56% is merely because of Dwyane Wade. LeBron's efficiency will always **** on Melo's...and 9-11 for 30 and 13-14 for 31 is far more impressive than 13-26 for 36, regardless of who they're playing with.

OceanSpray
02-09-2013, 04:17 PM
amazing how all of u dont realize how much easier it is to shoot higher % when u have another guy who demands respect of the other defense. The heat are 1.5 games better then knicks with bosh n wade.

LeBron has been posting a higher FG% than Melo since Cavs days as well.

Yanks All Day
02-09-2013, 11:30 PM
At this point, it's LeBron against Durant. No one else is close to the MVP race. I think team records won't play too big a factor in this because it is completely apparent that the Heat take games off much like the Spurs do. The only difference is Pop will physically rest starters while the Heat will mentally check out of meaningless games. Everyone can see it and I think voters will know it. Records and finishes play a part in out-of-nowhere stories, like Derrick Rose.

When players as great as LeBron and Durant separate themselves from the pack, I think voters will go by the better player. In the end, neither cares if they finish 1st or 2nd in the East/West. They'll both be there in the end. Their play transcends their teams' records because the records are meaningless to teams that know they'll be playing in May and June. What the eye test tells you this year is that LeBron James is having the better season. For clearly the best player in the game to elevate his play further, it just boggles your mind. I believe the vote will be close, but I'm fairly positive LeBron will be taking home his 4th MVP in 5 seasons.

justinnum1
02-09-2013, 11:39 PM
Kd is still young and will win a few MVP's. But i really think the voters give it to lebron again, he had a historical year last season and this season he is even better.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-10-2013, 10:54 AM
i love this.
two studs going at it for the top regular season prize.
obviously i want lebron to win, but instead of hating on durant, which i havent done yet lol, i choose to enjoy both of them.

:drool:

D-Leethal
02-10-2013, 11:02 AM
Melo took himself out after getting mind****ed by KG and taking a couple weeks to snap out of it. Its a two man race right now, and will take an insane stretch from Melo to get him back into it. CP3's injury took him out of it too.

yaswaggin
02-10-2013, 01:50 PM
I'd go with lebron right now

Durant is a close second, but to surpass lebron he's going to have to go on a tear better then the one lebron is currently going through

b@llhog24
02-10-2013, 02:19 PM
Do you guys think this is LeBron's best regular season so far?

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-10-2013, 02:23 PM
Do you guys think this is LeBron's best regular season so far?

let it end, than ill answer.. cos the year he went 30 8 and 7 was impressive..

lets see i guess..

IKnowHoops
02-10-2013, 02:33 PM
Do you guys think this is LeBron's best regular season so far?

Its hard to pick one. Hes been playing like this since his second year in the league. Every year he does this. He is probably the most consistently great player of all time too. His numbers are so sick every year, that every year it seems like he's doing something weve never seen before, but its just the same thing hes been doing for 8 years now.

ManRam
02-10-2013, 02:34 PM
I don't know if it's his best because he's had some damn great seasons...and it's hard to really pick between them all.

But I think the improvement in his three point shooting as well as his improvement to an already greatly efficient game has been remarkable. It's amazing.

justinnum1
02-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Do you guys think this is LeBron's best regular season so far?

From an efficiency standpoint, yes. from a stats/numbers view, no

kdspurman
02-11-2013, 10:13 AM
Outside of Durant/Lebron, Tony Parker is having a fantastic season and should be behind those guys ahead of anyone else.

ATX
02-11-2013, 10:30 AM
Outside of Durant/Lebron, Tony Parker is having a fantastic season and should be behind those guys ahead of anyone else.

I agree with this. His %'s are unreal this season too.

boateng
02-11-2013, 11:16 AM
I agree with this. His %'s are unreal this season too.

Yes he is getting over looked. He has been great.

boateng
02-11-2013, 11:18 AM
i love this.
two studs going at it for the top regular season prize.
obviously i want lebron to win, but instead of hating on durant, which i havent done yet lol, i choose to enjoy both of them.

:drool:

Yup that's the way

I would like Durant to win it personally, since i think he has had a great season and it will be nice to have a new winner.

THE GIPPER
02-11-2013, 05:26 PM
I dont know if this has been posted but a quick Lebron vs. Kobe stat from ESPN:

Since Lebron entered the league in '03, Kobe has taken 525 more shots than Lebron and scored 86 less points.

IKnowHoops
02-11-2013, 05:33 PM
I told a bunch of people on this site that Lebron was just coasting and he has another level he can step it up to. Looks like the last 2 weeks Lebron has done just that, and the people saying Durant had better stats and that Durant was going to win MVP have suddenly disappeared (as i knew they would, they would never admit Lebron was playing better because they are just haters and are not real, they would rather just disappear).

ManRam
02-11-2013, 05:43 PM
I dont know if this has been posted but a quick Lebron vs. Kobe stat from ESPN:

Since Lebron entered the league in '03, Kobe has taken 525 more shots than Lebron and scored 86 less points.

I get that Kobe, Melo and guys like that are more skilled players and tend to make and take more high difficulty shots, but I still don't get why they're regarded as "better scorers". I don't care how you do it, all that matters are the results, and LeBron has been a better scorer than those guys for a long time now.



Even this year, Kobe has taken 1,087 shots and made 506 of them. LeBron has taken 883 (204 fewer) and made 496 (10 fewer). Why is Kobe the better scorer? Melo has taken 928 and made 421 too...

STA_PLAR
02-11-2013, 06:03 PM
The Knicks would be 17-32 without Melo. Talk about Valuable.

Miami would still be in the playoffs as would be OKC. Melo is carrying his team and is the only guy on his team who needs a double team.

The only reason the Knicks are doing well is because of the 3 pointers they're making or were making lol.

bucketss
02-11-2013, 07:45 PM
The Knicks would be 17-32 without Melo. Talk about Valuable.

Miami would still be in the playoffs as would be OKC. Melo is carrying his team and is the only guy on his team who needs a double team.

The only reason the Knicks are doing well is because of the 3 pointers they're making or were making lol.

lol so thats how good they would be without melo.. and you expect this team to win a championship lmao

b@llhog24
02-11-2013, 08:15 PM
I told a bunch of people on this site that Lebron was just coasting and he has another level he can step it up to. Looks like the last 2 weeks Lebron has done just that, and the people saying Durant had better stats and that Durant was going to win MVP have suddenly disappeared (as i knew they would, they would never admit Lebron was playing better because they are just haters and are not real, they would rather just disappear).

Because that MVP thread got locked. And lol Durant still has better stats. Base your arguments for Bron's MVP on another ground because statistically you're not gonna find it.

IKnowHoops
02-12-2013, 01:16 AM
Because that MVP thread got locked. And lol Durant still has better stats. Base your arguments for Bron's MVP on another ground because statistically you're not gonna find it.

Player Name Tm Pos GP Min USG TS% %Ast AR TOR ORR DRR TRR EFF WS AWS PER APER
LeBron James MIA SF 48 38.5 30.06 63.3 38.5 22.04 9.55 4.1 21.0 12.9 31.71 15.10 12.58 31.09 32.31
Kevin Durant OKC SF 50 38.6 29.31 65.5 53.5 15.08 10.78 1.7 19.3 11.1 30.48 13.89 11.61 29.02 29.52

Wow that was easier than I thought it would be. Pretty easy to argue stats when this is in front of me buddy. I highlighted the one and only stat that was in Durant's favor just so you wouldnt miss it. Now what were you saying again about Durant's better stats? lol

mngopher35
02-12-2013, 01:17 AM
Because that MVP thread got locked. And lol Durant still has better stats. Base your arguments for Bron's MVP on another ground because statistically you're not gonna find it.

I disagree, Lebrons stats are slightly better than Durants right now imo. I don't see why you would laugh and say it's durant as if its obvious. Lebron averages 2 less points but 2.5 more assists, less turnovers (barely), and more rebounds. I'd say raw statistics clearly favor Lebron. Advanced stats can favor both players as Durant has slight lead in WS/48 and about 2% better TS% and Lebron has 2 point lead in per.

One thing I will point out though is that Durant has other people to hold down the paint for him (ibaka) while Lebron doesn't have that same defensive anchor (this can help your defensive win shares). So while WS slightly favor durant, he also has more defensive win shares which I think goes against the eye test. Not saying durant hasn't improved a ton defensively, just that I don't think hes been better than Lebron on that end.

IKnowHoops
02-12-2013, 01:31 AM
I disagree, Lebrons stats are slightly better than Durants right now imo. I don't see why you would laugh and say it's durant as if its obvious. Lebron averages 2 less points but 2.5 more assists, less turnovers (barely), and more rebounds. I'd say raw statistics clearly favor Lebron. Advanced stats can favor both players as Durant has slight lead in WS/48 and about 2% better TS% and Lebron has 2 point lead in per.

One thing I will point out though is that Durant has other people to hold down the paint for him (ibaka) while Lebron doesn't have that same defensive anchor (this can help your defensive win shares). So while WS slightly favor durant, he also has more defensive win shares which I think goes against the eye test. Not saying durant hasn't improved a ton defensively, just that I don't think hes been better than Lebron on that end.

Its easy to see, I dont understand how/why ballhog24 thinks the stats so humorously point to Durant's favor. He says he understands the numbers but I don't really think he does. Either that or he doesn't count rebs or asst when he compares Durant to Lebron.

seikou8
02-12-2013, 01:34 AM
it is tight lebron is in the lead for now.

mngopher35
02-12-2013, 02:23 AM
Lebron is currently on a great run and people are starting to be more split on who will win it (I think Durant was leading a couple weeks ago for most). It may just come down to who is playing the best when the season is near end or who has the last big stretch of great games. They both are playing some amazing basketball and its really awesome to watch.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2013, 02:53 AM
amazing how all of u dont realize how much easier it is to shoot higher % when u have another guy who demands respect of the other defense. The heat are 1.5 games better then knicks with bosh n wade.

tell that to Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, etc....

Hawkeye15
02-12-2013, 02:54 AM
I honestly thought this award was Durant's to lose, and I still feel that way to an extent. But if Bron is going to just take over the NBA in the 2nd half of the season, he will win it again. There has simply not been a better player this month, and he was already the best player in the game.

NYJ - NYY
02-12-2013, 11:40 AM
this award is brons to lose simple as that

IKnowHoops
02-12-2013, 01:12 PM
I honestly thought this award was Durant's to lose, and I still feel that way to an extent. But if Bron is going to just take over the NBA in the 2nd half of the season, he will win it again. There has simply not been a better player this month, and he was already the best player in the game.

Ive said it before, Lebron has a level he can go to that no other player can. If you watch Lebron enough, you can see that for the entire season, he has been coasting at about 50% effort. Hes been
giving a little more lately and it becomes very obvious that he is on another level than Durant.

Baller1
02-12-2013, 01:18 PM
Durant is kinda getting ****ed over by how good OKC is right now...

He hasn't played in the fourth quarter in almost TWO WEEKS. OKC is winning by an average of like 25 points over their past 4-5 games, so Durant hasn't even seen the court in the fourth quarter because they're already slaughtering the other team.

Kinda sucks, it's dragging his numbers down little by little. Then meanwhile, Lebron is on a ****ing tear.

ManRam
02-12-2013, 01:31 PM
Yeah, he's lost the scoring lead to Melo. His minutes are down from 39.6 last month to 31.4 this month. Selfishly for him it does suck, but obviously he should be sitting. He is still third in minutes per game though.

justinnum1
02-12-2013, 02:11 PM
Durant is kinda getting ****ed over by how good OKC is right now...

He hasn't played in the fourth quarter in almost TWO WEEKS. OKC is winning by an average of like 25 points over their past 4-5 games, so Durant hasn't even seen the court in the fourth quarter because they're already slaughtering the other team.

Kinda sucks, it's dragging his numbers down little by little. Then meanwhile, Lebron is on a ****ing tear.
OKC has so much talent on that team.

bron has wade who is on a tear, bosh who shows up some games, and then some of the most inconsistnet role players in the league.

Durant has westbrick who just won player of the week, ibaka who is playing great and having a career
year in scoring, martin who is in contention for 6thman of the year, just a solid team.

Its going to be a close race to the end.

Baller1
02-12-2013, 03:05 PM
Yeah, it's definitely selfish of me to look at it that way... But I don't care, I want him to win it. :laugh2:

Baller1
02-12-2013, 03:06 PM
Lebron is selfish too though, hogging all the ****ing MVP's every year.

justinnum1
02-12-2013, 03:10 PM
At least you dont hate lebron. Some people here can't appreciate how good he is because they are bitter towards him.

IKnowHoops
02-12-2013, 03:14 PM
Lebron is selfish too though, hogging all the ****ing MVP's every year.

Yeah I agree, he needs to knock off being the best athlete the world has ever seen.

Baller1
02-12-2013, 03:21 PM
At least you dont hate lebron. Some people here can't appreciate how good he is because they are bitter towards him.

Lebron's one of my favorite players, always has been. The more people hated on him, the more I loved him.

Living in Laker land, I see more hate for Lebron than anyone. Laker fans can't stand him (because he so easily took over as the best player in the world), and therefore I love him.

tredigs
02-12-2013, 05:41 PM
Lebron has been so fun to watch the past month. You rarely see players stay this hot for that long. Durant himself has done no falling off, he's just proving that he can help lead the Thunder to dominating victories before the game is even over. I do think the Westbrook player of the weak was both a bit of a stretch and being widely overblown by some staunch LBJ4MVP supporters: He averaged 21/3/6 0.3blk + 3.3stl, 3 TO's on 50% field/67% line. KD averaged 21/7/3 1.7blk + 1.3stl, 2.3 TO's on 53% field/94% line. Both in limited minutes. He was similar, but still probably better than Westbrook last week.

Over the past month of games (~15), here's KD and Lebron:

Lebron:[38.8 mpg] 30/8/7, 1.6 stl + 0.7 blk, 61.5% field (18.8 fga/g) / 76.9% line (7 fta/g), 3.2 TO's

Durant:[37.4 mpg] 30/7/5, 1.5 stl + 1.0 blk, 50.0% field (18.4 fga/g) / 91.4% line (10 fta/g), 2.9 TO's

Given the fact that KD shoots a bit more 3's (obviously lowers FG% more overall) and has such a significant advantage in Free Throws even in Lebron's torch run, the scoring efficiency is still closer than we might expect. KD has still absolutely been killing it and keeping pace, even in this amazing run from LBJ. With the win%'s still at 77% for OKC and 71% for Miami, this race is still entirely too close to call.

This thursday's game could mean something, but it will likely come down to which team is winning more down the stretch, because Durant looks like he's proving that Lebron won't be able to run away from him statistically this year. For me, I did have KD in the lead, but it's a dead heat right now.

Minimal
02-12-2013, 05:45 PM
I have no problem if any of LeBron or Durant win it, but no other. I think LeBron is in the lead right now.

HouRealCoach
02-12-2013, 07:06 PM
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. Tony Parker

That's how it looks now

HouRealCoach
02-12-2013, 07:07 PM
LeBron James's game log is ridiculous right now

IKnowHoops
02-12-2013, 07:11 PM
Its been, it is, and its going to be a close race, but the edge via the eye test and the stats go to Lebron.

b@llhog24
02-12-2013, 09:17 PM
Player Name Tm Pos GP Min USG TS% %Ast AR TOR ORR DRR TRR EFF WS AWS PER APER
LeBron James MIA SF 48 38.5 30.06 63.3 38.5 22.04 9.55 4.1 21.0 12.9 31.71 15.10 12.58 31.09 32.31
Kevin Durant OKC SF 50 38.6 29.31 65.5 53.5 15.08 10.78 1.7 19.3 11.1 30.48 13.89 11.61 29.02 29.52

Wow that was easier than I thought it would be. Pretty easy to argue stats when this is in front of me buddy. I highlighted the one and only stat that was in Durant's favor just so you wouldnt miss it. Now what were you saying again about Durant's better stats? lol


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Kevin Durant 2012-13 24 51 1977 29.0 .654 .570 1.7 19.3 11.1 20.5 2.1 2.4 12.6 29.6 124 101 9.4 3.2 12.6 .305
2 LeBron James 2012-13 28 48 1845 30.9 .633 .600 4.1 20.9 12.9 34.0 2.2 1.8 12.3 30.1 123 102 8.9 2.6 11.5 .298

You forgot a couple.

He also has a higher PPP just in case you were wondering.


I disagree, Lebrons stats are slightly better than Durants right now imo. I don't see why you would laugh

I laughed because he's bringing up an argument that pretty much nobody agreed with in the first MVP thread.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?785817-Official-NBA-Race-to-the-MVP-Thread/page65

Check out the last 5ish pages, Especially PSK's post #999. The argument gained a little more credibility since Bron is on a tear right now and KD is playing less minutes since OKC is blowing opponents out.


and say it's durant as if its obvious. Lebron averages 2 less points but 2.5 more assists, less turnovers (barely), and more rebounds. I'd say raw statistics clearly favor Lebron. Advanced stats can favor both players as Durant has slight lead in WS/48 and about 2% better TS% and Lebron has 2 point lead in per.

Maybe not "slapping you in your face" obvious but there's a clear enough separation to the point that you could declare KD of being superior statistically. He has more Win Shares, WS/48 and Ortg and TS%, while having a nearly identical USG to LeBron. LeBron just leads him in PER. Btw, don't really see the need for basic stats if we're just going to use the advanced versions of them anyways.


One thing I will point out though is that Durant has other people to hold down the paint for him (ibaka) while Lebron doesn't have that same defensive anchor (this can help your defensive win shares). So while WS slightly favor durant, he also has more defensive win shares which I think goes against the eye test. Not saying durant hasn't improved a ton defensively, just that I don't think hes been better than Lebron on that end.

I agree, which is why I'm telling him that if he was basing his argument more on intangible worth then he'd be on more solid footing. Read the post of his below mines, he actually thinks it's "humorous" to think that KD is superior statistically. :facepalm: I could buy the argument, it's just he's doing a realy poor job of showing it.


Its easy to see, I dont understand how/why ballhog24 thinks the stats so humorously point to Durant's favor. He says he understands the numbers but I don't really think he does. Either that or he doesn't count rebs or asst when he compares Durant to Lebron.

Lol didn't I have to explain to you how PER isn't a measure of offensive/scoring efficiency? Weren't you the same guy who said that LeBron has a higher PPP than Durant? Or that NOBODY who's into APBR metrics uses EFF? Gtfo.

kdspurman
02-12-2013, 09:50 PM
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. Tony Parker

That's how it looks now

I don't see the argument for Paul or Melo over Parker at this point of the season

CHANGO
02-12-2013, 09:51 PM
I mean... Lebron is just playing out of his friking mind right now...

First Half - 18pts, 6-8FG, 6-6FT, 4reb, 6ast, 2stl, no TO in just 19 minutes...

That's unreal.

CHANGO
02-12-2013, 09:52 PM
I don't see the argument for Paul or Melo over Parker at this point of the season

Yep, Parker is having a great season he's shooting over 50% and he's a pg. Right now I have my list like this:
Lebron
Durant
Parker
Paul
Carmelo

justinnum1
02-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Lebron


Durant

doesnt matter

kdspurman
02-12-2013, 11:09 PM
Lebron


Durant

doesnt matter

Wouldn't exactly say it doesn't matter. But its obvious who 1/2 are

justinnum1
02-12-2013, 11:21 PM
Wouldn't exactly say it doesn't matter. But its obvious who 1/2 are

I did it for the effect that its a 2 man race. with Tony parker and cp3 fighting for 3rd.

rockbottom2010
02-12-2013, 11:22 PM
lebron is walking away with mvp.....first player to score 30 pts 6 games in a row while shooting 60%....nobody has ever done that before...

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-12-2013, 11:42 PM
OH...MY...GOD :drool:

heyman321
02-12-2013, 11:43 PM
its not fair that lebron exists

ManRam
02-12-2013, 11:45 PM
I think people are getting carried away with this stretch. Yes, he's playing historically well...but KD is also having a historic season. I don't think anyone with a peer like KD playing at the same time ever has won an MVP based on what they did during a handful of games in early February.

If it ended today, he'd win it. It doesn't end today, and to act like he went from probable #2 to a look to win it months from now is a bit disingenuous.

This thing, for all intents and purposes, is still basically a neck and neck thing. LeBron's neck is reaching out further, but KD certainly can make people look past this stretch.

justinnum1
02-12-2013, 11:55 PM
I think people are getting carried away with this stretch. Yes, he's playing historically well...but KD is also having a historic season. I don't think anyone with a peer like KD playing at the same time ever has won an MVP based on what they did during a handful of games in early February.

If it ended today, he'd win it. It doesn't end today, and to act like he went from probable #2 to a look to win it months from now is a bit disingenuous.

This thing, for all intents and purposes, is still basically a neck and neck thing. LeBron's neck is reaching out further, but KD certainly can make people look past this stretch.

The way i see it, the records will be so close they won't play that much a factor.

Lebron is the unanimous best player in the game

Kd is the unanimous 2nd best player in the game

I see lebron finishing the season avg 26/7/7 55% shooting and 63%TS%

Unless kd just goes ape **** the rest of the season i think it will be difficult for kd to win it. It's almost like the year started with lebron being the default MVP and someone has to unseat him. Had lebron been shooting around 50% then i think KD's numbers would be significant enough to win.

Other issue is lebron is clearly better on the defensive end imo. KD has improved no doubt but lebron has such an impact defensively, he could be considered a DPOY candidate.

All we can do now is enjoy the history being made by the 2 best players in the game

kdspurman
02-12-2013, 11:56 PM
I think people are getting carried away with this stretch. Yes, he's playing historically well...but KD is also having a historic season. I don't think anyone with a peer like KD playing at the same time ever has won an MVP based on what they did during a handful of games in early February.

If it ended today, he'd win it. It doesn't end today, and to act like he went from probable #2 to a look to win it months from now is a bit disingenuous.

This thing, for all intents and purposes, is still basically a neck and neck thing. LeBron's neck is reaching out further, but KD certainly can make people look past this stretch.

Yea, it'll be interesting to see which of them "cools off" if either does after the all star break.

I was chatting with some folks on twitter and said Lebron rightfully so is getting so much attention for shooting 56% from the field and me (I tend to throw my guys out there when I can/see fit) am like Parker is shooting 53.5% from the field, much smaller in the tougher conference and gets no love.

Look, I'm not oblivious to what's going on with Durant and Lebron it's a great race between those too. But Parker in his own right is having a remarkable season and not really getting much recognition. (There were people saying he shouldn't be an all star :facepalm:)

If Parker is able to stay with his current #'s, here's the Players with 20+ PPG / 7.5+ APG / 53+ FG% seasons:

- Wilt (3)
- Magic
- Jordan
- Parker

If he drops to 52% only Bird is added to this list. He's quietly having a really good season. I know you've given him a shout out, and it just goes to show you how great these other guys are for his season to go fairly unnoticed thus far

ManRam
02-13-2013, 12:01 AM
Parker needs more love, I agree.

He's #3 for me right now.

Korman12
02-13-2013, 12:05 AM
I think people are getting carried away with this stretch. Yes, he's playing historically well...but KD is also having a historic season. I don't think anyone with a peer like KD playing at the same time ever has won an MVP based on what they did during a handful of games in early February.

If it ended today, he'd win it. It doesn't end today, and to act like he went from probable #2 to a look to win it months from now is a bit disingenuous.

This thing, for all intents and purposes, is still basically a neck and neck thing. LeBron's neck is reaching out further, but KD certainly can make people look past this stretch.

Like someone else said before (cannot remember who), if the season ended today, Durant might have the best non-MVP season we've ever seen.

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 12:10 AM
=b@llhog24;25376300]
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Kevin Durant 2012-13 24 51 1977 29.0 .654 .570 1.7 19.3 11.1 20.5 2.1 2.4 12.6 29.6 124 101 9.4 3.2 12.6 .305
2 LeBron James 2012-13 28 48 1845 30.9 .633 .600 4.1 20.9 12.9 34.0 2.2 1.8 12.3 30.1 123 102 8.9 2.6 11.5 .298

You forgot a couple.

He also has a higher PPP just in case you were wondering.

So Lebron Leads in
PER/APER/EFG/ORB/DRB/TRB/AST/STL/TOV/USG/EFF/WS(win scores)/drtg/aws (14)

And Durnant Leads in
TS/BLK/ortg/ows(offensive win shares)/dws(defensive team shares)/ws(win shares)/WS48/ppp (8)

OK so my questions are

1. Can you count?
2. How does this help your argument that Durant has better stats?
3. Do you not count the stats that Lebron leads Durant in?
4. Youve admitted that Defensive in shares do not depict what Lebron and Durant are actually doing, so what you are doing is saying that Win shares in general is a team accomplishment as well as individual.




I laughed because he's bringing up an argument that pretty much nobody agreed with in the first MVP thread.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?785817-Official-NBA-Race-to-the-MVP-Thread/page65

Check out the last 5ish pages, Especially PSK's post #999. The argument gained a little more credibility since Bron is on a tear right now and KD is playing less minutes since OKC is blowing opponents out.

Why dont you name the three people/trolls who disagreed with me that makes up your "pretty much nobody" statement. Coincidentally, none of those people post anymore because they no Lebron is better and is outplaying Durant.

Man 5 games later and its close now.




Maybe not "slapping you in your face" obvious but there's a clear enough separation to the point that you could declare KD of being superior statistically. He has more Win Shares, WS/48 and Ortg and TS%, while having a nearly identical USG to LeBron. LeBron just leads him in PER. Btw, don't really see the need for basic stats if we're just going to use the advanced versions of them anyways.


Dang man, talk about me leaving out a few, PER thats it? ASSt? Rebounds? WS? drtg? And there is more. Dude you cant be serious. You seriously are just gonna ignore any and every stat Lebron has over Durant. You even mention ortg for Durant, and not drtg for Lebron. Why? How? You are a joke. Include all the stats or none of them and just go off the eye test. You see how I used every single stat, they are there for a reason bro. You only pick out the stats that Durant leads in. If you use all the stats, your argument is in the toilet real quick.



I agree, which is why I'm telling him that if he was basing his argument more on intangible worth then he'd be on more solid footing. Read the post of his below mines, he actually thinks it's "humorous" to think that KD is superior statistically. :facepalm: I could buy the argument, it's just he's doing a realy poor job of showing it.

Im doing a poor job by taking the stats right off of NBA.com and hoop data. Dont hate the player, hate the game. I get it straight from the horses mouth.




Lol didn't I have to explain to you how PER isn't a measure of offensive/scoring efficiency? Weren't you the same guy who said that LeBron has a higher PPP than Durant? Or that NOBODY who's into APBR metrics uses EFF? Gtfo.[/QUOTE]
I always new it wasnt scoring efficiency, its player efficiency that takes into account everything you do on the court, not just scoring. MVP isnt just about scoring, thats why Lebron being the superior overall player is going to win mvp and it shows his overall superiority statistically, but you keep wanting to ignore the stats like rb,asst that show this.

The only thing you ve proven is you ignore statistics because you know you are wrong. Go to sleep.
When Bron wins the mvp this year, every word you have said, youll be saying to yourself so keep it up smart guy

DanG
02-13-2013, 12:15 AM
So Lebron Leads in
PER/APER/EFG/ORB/DRB/TRB/AST/STL/TOV/USG/EFF/WS(win scores)/drtg/aws (14)

And Durnant Leads in
TS/BLK/ortg/ows(offensive win shares)/dws(defensive team shares)/ws(win shares)/WS48/ppp (8)

durant has a better drtg than bron

justinnum1
02-13-2013, 12:18 AM
durant has a better drtg than bron

team stat...

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 12:25 AM
Maybe not "slapping you in your face" obvious but there's a clear enough separation to the point that you could declare KD of being superior statistically. He has more Win Shares, WS/48 and Ortg and TS%, while having a nearly identical USG to LeBron. LeBron just leads him in PER. Btw, don't really see the need for basic stats if we're just going to use the advanced versions of them anyways.

Arent you the guy that says your MVP is Cris Paul?

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 12:35 AM
So Lebron Leads in
PER/APER/EFG/ORB/DRB/TRB/AST/STL/TOV/USG/EFF/WS(win scores)/drtg/aws (14)

And Durnant Leads in
TS/BLK/ortg/ows(offensive win shares)/dws(defensive team shares)/ws(win shares)/WS48/ppp (8)

Some starts are better to lead in than others. In the grand scheme of things as long as Durant is beating LeBron in Ortg while sporting a similar USG then he's the better offensive player. No matter what TS, eFG, PPP, or FG says.


OK so my questions are

1. Can you count?

No.


2. How does this help your argument that Durant has better stats?

Because he has the better combination of stats that actually carry more weight. Sort of like Iggy a couple of years ago had better all around stats than Durant, but no one would dare argue that he was better than KD. This is that argument, except that Bron actually has a case.


3. Do you not count the stats that Lebron leads Durant in?

I count them. But I'm getting the feeling that you think it's just "ooohh look LeBron leads in this and that" if you're using his PER than why would you feel the need to cite his rebounds, assists, steals, block, basically any box score stat? Why? It's already accounted for WITH a league average and pace variance.


4. Youve admitted that Defensive in shares do not depict what Lebron and Durant are actually doing, so what you are doing is saying that Win shares in general is a team accomplishment as well as individual.

But can you prove it to me is the question. Maybe is somebody like Chronz, or KoB, or Hawk made that argument then at least I would know that they no how to factor that in based on their statistical acumen. You on the other hand? I'm not so convinced.





Why dont you name the three people/trolls who disagreed with me that makes up your "pretty much nobody" statement. Coincidentally, none of those people post anymore because they no Lebron is better and is outplaying Durant.

Tre, PSK, and Chroz are probably the 3 best posters on this forum. Shoots there was a thread about who had the best stats this season between Durant and LeBron this year and I remember the KD supporters laying down the law in there.


Man 5 historic* games later and its close now.

Fixed.


[/B]

Dang man, talk about me leaving out a few, PER thats it? ASSt? Rebounds? WS? drtg? And there is more. Dude you cant be serious. You seriously are just gonna ignore any and every stat Lebron has over Durant. You even mention ortg for Durant, and not drtg for Lebron. Why? How? You are a joke. Include all the stats or none of them and just go off the eye test. You see how I used every single stat, they are there for a reason bro. You only pick out the stats that Durant leads in. If you use all the stats, your argument is in the toilet real quick.

LMAO. Gtfo. Having the higher Drtg ISN'T a good thing. And some stats are better than others to lead in.




Im doing a poor job by taking the stats right off of NBA.com and hoop data. Dont hate the player, hate the game. I get it straight from the horses mouth.

Because any idiot can just copy and paste stats and pretend to understand them....Exhibit A.


[B] You even mention ortg for Durant, and not drtg for Lebron. Why?



I always new it wasnt scoring efficiency, its player efficiency that takes into account everything you do on the court, not just scoring. MVP isnt just about scoring, thats why Lebron being the superior overall player is going to win mvp and it shows his overall superiority statistically, but you keep wanting to ignore the stats like rb,asst that show this.

The only thing you ve proven is you ignore statistics because you know you are wrong. Go to sleep.
When Bron wins the mvp this year, every word you have said, youll be saying to yourself so keep it up smart guy

I don't a give **** who wins it. This all started because Justim said LeBron was having a historic offensive season and I told him that Durant's own is even more historic. You came a tried to turn this into a pissing match. Also still not convinced that you know as much about PER as you say you do, if you did you'd never harp on me about not including PER and EFF when EFF is just a poor mans PER.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 12:37 AM
Arent you the guy that says your MVP is Cris Paul?

Point?

justinnum1
02-13-2013, 01:03 AM
I would say KD is barley having the better offensive season. But when it comes to other facets of the game such as defense, and passing lebron clearly has the advantage there imo

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 01:26 AM
Isn't passing "offensive"?

justinnum1
02-13-2013, 01:28 AM
Isn't passing "offensive"?

if i included passing then i would say Lebron is having just as good if not better an offensive game this season than KD. If we just isolate scoring, i would say KD is better in scoring metrics.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 01:41 AM
if i included passing then i would say Lebron is having just as good if not better an offensive game this season than KD. If we just isolate scoring, i would say KD is better in scoring metrics.

Offensive win shares, and Ortg.

mngopher35
02-13-2013, 02:02 AM
Offensive win shares, and Ortg.

While Lebron has a higher per, ast%, lower turnover%, higher offensive rebound %. Some stats point to one guy, others point to another. Also Durant has played more games so just looking at win shares doesn't mean much. Then factor in that hes scoring only 2 less points while having 2.5 more assists per game. All that said it's still close either way to me.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that Lebron has more offensive WS/48. (.232 to .228)

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 02:09 AM
While Lebron has a higher per, ast%, lower turnover%, higher offensive rebound %. Some stats point to one guy, others point to another. Also Durant has played more games so just looking at win shares doesn't mean much. Then factor in that hes scoring only 2 less points while having 2.5 more assists per game. All that said it's still close either way to me.

He's talking about total offensive efficiency. Did you look at the post PSK made? He's making history. How can LeBron have a better offensive season than someone who's making history?

Anyways here's PSK's post.


This award probably will come down to Durant and Lebron because while CP3 is proving how valuable he is, missing games isn't helping his cause either. I think he'd have to come back in the next few games, maintain his high level of play and not miss any more time to have a serious shot. However, you really do see how much the Clippers miss him with the way they've played in his absence (something which is confirmed by RAPM-http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html- the current leader being CP3). However, you're only really valuable if you're on the court and CP3 isn't at the moment.

One case to be made for Durant is that his scoring volume and efficiency is unheard of. Literally. We're witnessing perhaps the greatest combination of scoring volume and scoring efficiency in NBA history. Enjoy it because we're not likely to see anyone with this type of efficiency and this type of volume.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws

Currently Durant is hoping to join a list of 13 different seasons and 8 different players to shoot 50% from the field, 40% from 3 point line and 90% from the FT line. And of those players, only Larry Bird used a higher % of his teams possessions than Durant. Many of the players on this list are guards, the exception being Bird, Dirk and now Durant. Any time you can put yourself in that kind of company, you know you're a boss.

But it doesn't stop there, if KD can add a couple more plays per game used so that he gets his USG rate up to 30% (it's currently 29.8%), he will become the ONLY player in NBA history to use 30% of his teams' possessions while having a TS% over 65%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws

As it stands right now, he's the only player to use 29.8% of his teams' possessions and have a TS% above 65%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws

As it is, when you look at >=30% USG rate and >=60% TS%, the list is pretty exclusive. And Durant's TS% would blow the doors off the next highest player (Dantley).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws

You combine that with the increase in his passing and rebounds, and I think he's your MVP. I realize that Lebron plays better defense but the scoring efficiency/volume that Durant is putting up this year just never comes around. Literally. Never. The closest is Bird and Durant's TS% is almost a full 5% points higher despite having virtually the same USG rate. And 5% is quite a bit (it's basically the difference between Chris Paul's TS% and the league average TS% so don't say its not a lot).

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 02:15 AM
I'll lay it out again:

Ortg>TS, Ast, Tov, Orb, etc. As long as the USG rates are the same. Well basically.

mngopher35
02-13-2013, 02:31 AM
Alright, we just have differences on how we judge then. I don't solely base offensive ability and impact off of o rating. Just so you know amare in 2008 was as good offensively as durant and roy in 2009 was as good as lebron if we are only looking at o rating and usage. It is a great indicator to help but when the difference is one point and other factors lean towards the other player I don't think its as simple as just one stat.

naps
02-13-2013, 03:15 AM
lebron is walking away with mvp.....first player to score 30 pts 6 games in a row while shooting 60%....nobody has ever done that before...

Not even a big-man? I mean most of the all-time greats were bigmen who were great scorers. Shooting high percentage is a common feature for centers and you would have thought someone like Shaq or Kareem or Wilt had a stretch like that. It's amazing and scary how LeBron could still get better.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 03:23 AM
Alright, we just have differences on how we judge then. I don't solely base offensive ability and impact off of o rating. Just so you know amare in 2008 was as good offensively as durant and roy in 2009 was as good as lebron if we are only looking at o rating and usage. It is a great indicator to help but when the difference is one point and other factors lean towards the other player I don't think its as simple as just one stat.

LMAO. You're saying that as if it's a bad thing. Amar'e was a BEAST in his PHX days, and one of the most gifted offensive PFs ever.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 03:26 AM
Btw, nobody is basing them off of one stat, these players have similar roles on their teams. Durant is productive to an offense in just about any set imaginable. Only thing is Durant has an inferior player (even though I love Westy) taking touches away from him.

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 03:50 AM
He's talking about total offensive efficiency. Did you look at the post PSK made? He's making history. How can LeBron have a better offensive season than someone who's making history?

Anyways here's PSK's post.

Hey news flash buddy, Lebron just made history today. Thats how Lebron has a better offensive season than someone making history. He makes History. You keep serving em up. Why does your question in bold sound so funny?

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 03:54 AM
Hey news flash buddy, Lebron just made history today. Thats how Lebron has a better offensive season than someone making history. He makes History. You keep serving em up.

Not the same thing.

rockbottom2010
02-13-2013, 04:04 AM
Not even a big-man? I mean most of the all-time greats were bigmen who were great scorers. Shooting high percentage is a common feature for centers and you would have thought someone like Shaq or Kareem or Wilt had a stretch like that. It's amazing and scary how LeBron could still get better.

lets just say that jordan never even did that.....

mngopher35
02-13-2013, 04:12 AM
LMAO. You're saying that as if it's a bad thing. Amar'e was a BEAST in his PHX days, and one of the most gifted offensive PFs ever.

You're right it came off pretty bad, I didn't mean it as a horrible thing. But imo Lebron and durant are clearly better offensively this year than those two and it doesn't show in ortg and usage. When you look outside ortg lebron has a lower ts% but has durant beat in per and offensive ws/48 to go along with 2.5 more assists per game and only 2 less points. I don't see how there is a clear advantage toward either one with the stats pointing both ways. That's been my point and you responded to justin o rating and o win shares (which brought down to per 48 actually favors lebron).

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 04:31 AM
I'll lay it out again:

Ortg>TS, Ast, Tov, Orb, etc. As long as the USG rates are the same. Well basically.

OK, we are not talking about the same thing. All these stats are strictly about how well you put the ball in the hoop. I agree those stats slightly favor Durant. The PER shows who has been the better player all around, and Lebron is clearly leading from a complete statistical look, not just the scoring part.

Korman12
02-13-2013, 06:00 AM
If it weren't for Rose and Bynum (tears) missing this year, this might be one of my favorite seasons in a long time.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-13-2013, 10:40 AM
woahh lebron's ws/48- .304
durant- .307

very nice.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 11:09 AM
OK, we are not talking about the same thing. All these stats are strictly about how well you put the ball in the hoop. I agree those stats slightly favor Durant. The PER shows who has been the better player all around, and Lebron is clearly leading from a complete statistical look, not just the scoring part.

What stats?

HouRealCoach
02-13-2013, 11:16 AM
I don't see the argument for Paul or Melo over Parker at this point of the season

I can understandthat but a case can be made for any of the three

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 11:18 AM
woahh lebron's ws/48- .304
durant- .307

very nice.

Noice.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 11:20 AM
Currently, it's a wash after Bron's game last night.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-13-2013, 12:15 PM
yeah but durant still leads bron in the WS category.

tredigs
02-13-2013, 12:47 PM
It's crazy to think you could "lose ground" putting up 33/6/5 with 4 steals shooting 69% from the field/ 89% from the line. But the loss + Bron getting all the press for the 60%+ run will probably do that. Looks like the rest of OKC couldn't hit a 3 or a FT last night. That'll do it against a solid squad.

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 01:33 PM
It's crazy to think you could "lose ground" putting up 33/6/5 with 4 steals shooting 69% from the field/ 89% from the line. But the loss + Bron getting all the press for the 60%+ run will probably do that. Looks like the rest of OKC couldn't hit a 3 or a FT last night. That'll do it against a solid squad.

Players get credit they dont deserve when there teamates go off and they win, and they dont get the credit they deserve when they go off and there teamates stink it up. Its all good though, its universal and it happens to all players, and its probably the reason Durant leads Lebron in some of these stats. Referring to the stats that team success can help improve.

xRipCity
02-13-2013, 02:15 PM
LeBron is on an entirely different level then any other player right now.
If he can manage to keep this up, he is MVP no question.

1. LeBron (on his own level)
2. Durant (Below LeBron but also on his own level)
3. Players like James Harden, Kobe, Melo, Parker

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 02:28 PM
Point?

The point is this. Even though Chris Paul is a great player, saying that he is the MVP over Lebron and Durant hurts your credibility as a knowledgeable poster period. You want to say noone agreed with me. (3 people) Well I would bet noone (This whole site) agrees with you on that one so you may need to eat your own words or disregard them as stupid. You choose

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 02:34 PM
What stats?

Some starts are better to lead in than others. In the grand scheme of things as long as Durant is beating LeBron in Ortg while sporting a similar USG then he's the better offensive player. No matter what TS, eFG, PPP, or FG says.


Dude what are you asking me, your saying it plain as day, better offensive player. Thats what your saying and Im not even arguing that point. Im saying Lebron statistics show he is the better overall player.
Understand

Chronz
02-13-2013, 02:51 PM
If these pair of athletic monsters didn't exist, CP3 and TP would be doing something unprecedented, dominating the game primarily off midget smarts.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-13-2013, 04:37 PM
man frenchie is having a phenomenal season so far. really impressed.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-13-2013, 04:37 PM
It's crazy to think you could "lose ground" putting up 33/6/5 with 4 steals shooting 69% from the field/ 89% from the line. But the loss + Bron getting all the press for the 60%+ run will probably do that. Looks like the rest of OKC couldn't hit a 3 or a FT last night. That'll do it against a solid squad.

yup if lebron continues to tear it up, durantula just might have the best, if not, than one of the best non-mvp season ever.

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 06:22 PM
When its all said and done, KD and Bron have a shot at being top 5 ever. KD could be the best scorer ever trying to take it from Jordan. And Bron could be the best player ever, trying to take it from Jordan. they are both going at Jordan.

OceanSpray
02-13-2013, 07:18 PM
I'm going to be honest, KD is going to be the best player in about three years. However, James is clearly the MVP. I don't want to hear it about WS and all these nonsense FG %'s that you guys find off advanced stats. Watching the game, it's clearly visible who does the most for their team. They are both superstars of a generation.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 08:03 PM
Dude what are you asking me, your saying it plain as day, better offensive player. Thats what your saying and Im not even arguing that point. Im saying Lebron statistics show he is the better overall player.
Understand

Honestly don't know why I ran on with you so long, but after you tried to harp on me for not mentioning that Durant has a LOWER Drtg to be an argument FOR LeBron, I've come to the conclusion that you simply don't know about stats. You don't realize that none of the well known APBR metric supporters agreed with you? Don't you think that's a bit telling?

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 08:04 PM
The point is this. Even though Chris Paul is a great player, saying that he is the MVP over Lebron and Durant hurts your credibility as a knowledgeable poster period. You want to say noone agreed with me. (3 people) Well I would bet noone (This whole site) agrees with you on that one so you may need to eat your own words or disregard them as stupid. You choose

To whom? If your answer is yourself, then you are confusing me with someone who cares.

OceanSpray
02-13-2013, 08:08 PM
To whom? If your answer is yourself, then you are confusing me with someone who cares.

I'm going to have to say that if you think CP is the MVP, then you are obviously wrong. He's been injured for way too many games and shouldn't even be put in the 1-2 MVP category with LBJ and Durant in there. LBJ and Durant are going to be the top MVP candidates for the next 5 years. I think Carmelo deserves the third spot. If CP wasn't missing this many games, he could've been the third. But let's not pretend it's close. The 3rd leading candidate is miles behind the 2nd leading candidate.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 08:17 PM
I'm going to have to say that if you think CP is the MVP, then you are obviously wrong. He's been injured for way too many games and shouldn't even be put in the 1-2 MVP category with LBJ and Durant in there. LBJ and Durant are going to be the top MVP candidates for the next 5 years. I think Carmelo deserves the third spot. If CP wasn't missing this many games, he could've been the third. But let's not pretend it's close. The 3rd leading candidate is miles behind the 2nd leading candidate.

I agree he's probably missed too many games to make a serious case. But tell me does the MVP have a set criteria?

OceanSpray
02-13-2013, 08:19 PM
I agree he's probably missed too many games to make a serious case. But tell me does the MVP have a set criteria?

When you're playing like Durant/James are, it's not even debatable who the MVP should go to. If you noticed, no one ever speaks of the other candidates. Why? Because they know it's a two man race between James and Durant.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 08:21 PM
When you're playing like Durant/James are, it's not even debatable who the MVP should go to. If you noticed, no one ever speaks of the other candidates. Why? Because they know it's a two man race between James and Durant.

All those words, yet my question still went unanswered.

OceanSpray
02-13-2013, 08:25 PM
All those words, yet my question still went unanswered.

It went unanswered because it varies in so many ways.

Team success.
Stats.
Who is liked more?
How have they been playing lately?

I mean there are just too many factors. For example, how did Rose win? He certainly wasn't the MVP of that season.

The criteria for each voter is different. Some voters will vote for the better scorer and who they like more.

My criteria is simple; whoever does the most for their team day in and day out should be the MVP.

LeBron does the most.

-Best defender.
-Best scorer.
-Best rebounder.
-Best passer.
-Best playmaker.
-Leader.

I just don't see one player in the NBA who does more than LeBron. The scary part? He does it with ease.

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 08:26 PM
Honestly don't know why I ran on with you so long, but after you tried to harp on me for not mentioning that Durant has a LOWER Drtg to be an argument FOR LeBron, I've come to the conclusion that you simply don't know about stats. You don't realize that none of the well known APBR metric supporters agreed with you? Don't you think that's a bit telling?

Way to side step bro. You ask a question, I answer it, then you come up with this nonsense. Who are these well known APBR Metric supporters? I cant find anyone who disagrees with me accept you. If what I say isnt true, why did you say offensive player and not player. Nice try

IKnowHoops
02-13-2013, 08:30 PM
All those words, yet my question still went unanswered.

Dude just use your brain for once in your life and stop trying to sound so smart.

b@llhog24
02-13-2013, 08:38 PM
It went unanswered because it varies in so many ways.

Team success.
Stats.
Who is liked more?
How have they been playing lately?

I mean there are just too many factors. For example, how did Rose win? He certainly wasn't the MVP of that season.

The criteria for each voter is different. Some voters will vote for the better scorer and who they like more.

My criteria is simple; whoever does the most for their team day in and day out should be the MVP.

LeBron does the most.

-Best defender.
-Best scorer.
-Best rebounder.
-Best passer.
-Best playmaker.
-Leader.

I just don't see one player in the NBA who does more than LeBron. The scary part? He does it with ease.

Because of the awards, inconsistency it's not hard to believe that Cp3 could've gotten an MVP in the "Nash mold" the Clippers the best record and he had that whole "visibly making his teammates better" thing going for him. As of now however, I don't really have a horse in this race.


Way to side step bro. You ask a question, I answer it, then you come up with this nonsense. Who are these well known APBR Metric supporters? I cant find anyone who disagrees with me accept you. If what I say isnt true, why did you say offensive player and not player. Nice try

Baller, PSK, Chronz, ManRam, tre, Chi, Swass, Hawk..etc.


To anyone who reads your trash

Awww. :(


Dude just use your brain for once in your life and stop trying to sound so smart.

I don't try to sound smart, that's only your perception because you're an ignoramus.

ManRam
02-13-2013, 11:13 PM
Over-reactionary, I know, but can we stop mentioning Melo as a serious contender now?

I think now is the time.

utl768
02-13-2013, 11:19 PM
lebron is mvp

justinnum1
02-13-2013, 11:32 PM
Over-reactionary, I know, but can we stop mentioning Melo as a serious contender now?

I think now is the time.

It was time a month ago

IKnowHoops
02-14-2013, 02:28 AM
Baller, PSK, Chronz, ManRam, tre, Chi, Swass, Hawk..etc.



Actually Chronz told me you were trolling. As for the rest I haven't read where one of them disagree with me on this thread.

ManRam
02-14-2013, 01:24 PM
It was time a month ago

Yeah. Some people were still clinging. I mean, it's time to completely put and end to any and ALL talks.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-14-2013, 04:39 PM
At the beginning of this thread, I was arguing for Durant as the MVP. But Lebron's recent play has probably put him back in the lead. Simply amazing with that stretch of efficiency and volume that he just had.

I'd probably be ok with Co-MVPs as well because at this point, both of these guys are having such special seasons that'd it'd be a shame to not recognize both seasons.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 04:44 PM
I hate the co-MVP seasons.. One player is having the better season and it's become inevitable that it's James. Maybe tonight's game will solidify that.

Don't get me wrong, KD could've won if it was last year or any of the seasons five years ago.. But this year, James has been playing like no other player has been before.

tredigs
02-14-2013, 05:05 PM
I hate the co-MVP seasons.. One player is having the better season and it's become inevitable that it's James. Maybe tonight's game will solidify that.

Don't get me wrong, KD could've won if it was last year or any of the seasons five years ago.. But this year, James has been playing like no other player has been before.
How many NBA seasons have you seen and studied? There are dozens of truly incredible NBA seasons by many players. Lebron and KD's this is among them right now, but by no means is Lebron having some season that separates himself from all other players. Beyond that, he's far from having a significant lead on Durant this year alone.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-14-2013, 05:09 PM
I hate the co-MVP seasons.. One player is having the better season and it's become inevitable that it's James. Maybe tonight's game will solidify that.

Don't get me wrong, KD could've won if it was last year or any of the seasons five years ago.. But this year, James has been playing like no other player has been before.

So has Durant. He's putting up better efficiency + volume numbers than any other player in history. The 50-40-90 season is pretty rare but to do it with the USG rate that Durant has, it's literally never happened before.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:09 PM
How many NBA seasons have you seen and studied? There are dozens of truly incredible NBA seasons by many players. Lebron and KD's this is among them right now, but by no means is Lebron having some season that separates himself from all other players. Beyond that, he's far from having a significant lead on Durant this year alone.

A dozen of incredible seasons but which MVP season is actually competitive? Wilt, no. Jordan, half his seasons were against a watered down league. It seems your grudge against me has returned and you're still angry from the post regarding Jordan.

He's having a much better year than Durant.

He rebounds more.
Better passes.
Better defensive player.
More efficient on the offensive end.

What is there to say? Durant is great, not LeBron. He measures his ability to play against LeBron... Which tells you the goal is to reach LeBron's greatness.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:12 PM
So has Durant. He's putting up better efficiency + volume numbers than any other player in history. The 50-40-90 season is pretty rare but to do it with the USG rate that Durant has, it's literally never happened before.

Can you name a player who doesn't play the C or PF position that is averaging 57 FG% and scoring 27 PPG? Also, 8 rebounds and 7 APG. As good as Durant is playing, he's not playing better than James.

Durant isn't the guy who has to go in and rebound the ball.
He's not the guy who has to pass the ball.
He's not the guy who defends the best player on the opposing team daily.
Duran't objective is to score and do it at a high rate.


LeBron on the other hand does it all.

tredigs
02-14-2013, 05:13 PM
lol at withered down league talking about the 80's/90's while simultaneously lauding a guy who plays in the 2013 Eastern Conference. You're embarrassing yourself again. Please tell me why this is the greatest season in history?

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:16 PM
lol at withered down league. You're embarrassing yourself again. Please tell me why this is the greatest season in history?

Hmmm. Magic Johnson and Bird were out of their prime the years MJ won his rings.

When did I say greatest? I said he's playing like no other player has been before; which is true.

Please understand the difference.

Has MJ or any other player shot 60% FG% and score 30 PPG in that streak? LeBron is on 75% overall the past 6 games. Tell me, has it been done before?

tredigs
02-14-2013, 05:17 PM
Are you really dismissing KD's 7.4 RPG (while playing SF) while congratulating James' 8.1 RPG (while playing a large chunk of PF)? Agenda, much?

Btw, saying "hes playing like no other player has before" is insinuating that he's playing the best ever - whether you are conscious of that or not. If not, should we go over the thousands of things players do every year that haven't been done before? How technical can we get with the stats/limited # of games?

And yes, MJ and Magic were out of their primes when Jordan won his rings. Just as Duncan and Kobe are out of their primes when Lebron won his single ring. Do you know who wasn't out of their prime? D. Rob, Hakeem, Barkley, Stockton/Malone, Ewing, etc. Better top tier players than now, that is for sure.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:24 PM
Are you really dismissing KD's 7.4 RPG (while playing SF) while congratulating James' 8.1 RPG (while playing a large chunk of PF)? Agenda, much?

Btw, saying "hes playing like no other player has before" is insinuating that he's playing the best ever - whether you are conscious of that or not. If not, should we go over the thousands of things players do every year that haven't been done before? How technical can we get with the stats/limited # of games?

KD is averaging crazy offensive % numbers, never been done before. True or false?

I don't have to comment in regards to you.

How am I dismissing KD's rebounding numbers? I said his job isn't to rebound and is primarily to score. This means he doesn't have to come into the game having to rebound at a high rate for his team to win.

LeBron has to rebound because he is their best rebounder. LeBron has to pass and create plays because he's their best playmaker and passer. LeBron has to the defend the best player on the opposing team, Sefolosha does that for Durant.

I don't see why you try and start a debate within a debate. "LeBron playing a lark chunk of PG."

Do you even watch him play? They play the same position and saying LeBron plays the PF just proves he can play all positions. Thanks, have a nice day.

tredigs
02-14-2013, 05:38 PM
You're comparing two seasons and pumping up one as much as possible while essentially saying the others is negligibly important to his team because he has other players to do the work. It's laughable. You do realize that Wade can run an offense as well and Bosh more often than not will be outrebounding Lebron. He still has the higher rebounding%, he's just playing a bit less. Let's not sit here and pretend lil' old LBJ is out there having to do it all for his weakling teammates. The dude plays with with two top 15 players.

And really, you are trying to tell me you don't even know Lebron has been playing PF this year? He has played SF and PF this year, nothing else really. The offense goes through him (or Wade), but he's not the point - that's Chalmers or Cole.

Your comments are consistently one sided and pathetic dude. You need to realize there is life outside of Lebron James.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:42 PM
You're comparing two seasons and pumping up one as much as possible while essentially saying the others is not important to his team because he has other players to do the work. It's laughable. You do realize that Wade can run an offense as well and Bosh more often than not will be outrebounding Lebron. He still has the higher rebounding%, he's just playing a bit less. Let's not sit here and pretend lil' old LBJ is out there having to do it all for his weakling teammates. The dude plays with with two top 15 players.

And really, you are trying to tell me you don't even know Lebron has been playing PF this year? He has played SF and PF this year, nothing else really. The offense goes through him (or Wade), but he's not the point - that's Chalmers or Cole.

Your comments are consistently one sided and pathetic dude. You need to realize there is life outside of Lebron James.

You need to realize that just because someone appreciates James, you shouldn't be so hard to consistently quote them. I don't care what you like or don't like. I'm a huge fan of James because I am. Your comments have been nothing but devaluing of James. Now you can stop quoting me and looking for arguments.

ManRam
02-14-2013, 05:45 PM
Don't get me wrong, KD could've won if it was last year or any of the seasons five years ago.. But this year, James has been playing like no other player has been before.

As is Durant.

Players averaging 50%/40%/90% AND scoring 25 points a game: here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.5&c2stat=fg3_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.4&c3stat=ft_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.9&c4stat=pts_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=25&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

His volume/efficiency, something PSK was talking about, is outrageous: here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=usg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=29&c2stat=ts_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.65&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws) We've arguably never seeing a scorer that's been relied on so much to score, score this efficiently. Ever.

You can go to b-r.com's player season finder thingy and enter in any combination of relevant stats that he's putting up this year, and you won't see many/any people doing it before. Like this (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=29&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=6&c3stat=ws_per_48&c3comp=gt&c3val=.3&c4stat=per&c4comp=gt&c4val=29&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws).


Look, I've never been accused of not-liking LeBron or liking Durant, but let's not pretend that what KD is doing isn't truly remarkable. Might be the most impressive scoring season in a very, very, very long time

tredigs
02-14-2013, 05:48 PM
Awesome! I am the one "devaluing" says the guy who insinuates 'all KD needs to do is score' and 'MJ won in a watered down league'. I've never devalued James, in fact I used to hear it all the time for ''backing him up'' on this site when all the hate poured. I love the guy and what he's doing right now. I just need to regulate on kids who feel the need to devalue comparable players while pumping up their icon.

Gain some perspective. Also, maybe actually watch him play and understand positions of the league? That could be a start.


Edit: And I will leave you at that. It's no fun to engage agendas.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:50 PM
As is Durant.

Players averaging 50%/40%/90% AND scoring 25 points a game: here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.5&c2stat=fg3_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.4&c3stat=ft_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.9&c4stat=pts_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=25&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

His volume/efficiency, something PSK was talking about, is outrageous: here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=usg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=29&c2stat=ts_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.65&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws) We've arguably never seeing a scorer that's been relied on so much to score, score this efficiently. Ever.

You can go to b-r.com's player season finder thingy and enter in any combination of relevant stats that he's putting up this year, and you won't see many/any people doing it before. Like this (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=29&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=6&c3stat=ws_per_48&c3comp=gt&c3val=.3&c4stat=per&c4comp=gt&c4val=29&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws).


Look, I've never been accused of not-liking LeBron or liking Durant, but let's not pretend that what KD is doing isn't truly remarkable. Might be the most impressive scoring season in a very, very, very long time

I said Durant is the best scorer ever. I said Durant is having one of the best offensive seasons in the history of NBA. I said Durant would have won an MVP in any other season, just not this season. It can go either way, at least I can reason with you. Maybe tonight's game can solidify the argument for either player.

IKnowHoops
02-14-2013, 05:51 PM
You're comparing two seasons and pumping up one as much as possible while essentially saying the others is negligibly important to his team because he has other players to do the work. It's laughable. You do realize that Wade can run an offense as well and Bosh more often than not will be outrebounding Lebron. He still has the higher rebounding%, he's just playing a bit less. Let's not sit here and pretend lil' old LBJ is out there having to do it all for his weakling teammates. The dude plays with with two top 15 players.

And really, you are trying to tell me you don't even know Lebron has been playing PF this year? He has played SF and PF this year, nothing else really. The offense goes through him (or Wade), but he's not the point - that's Chalmers or Cole.

Your comments are consistently one sided and pathetic dude. You need to realize there is life outside of Lebron James.

I think the bottom line is this.

Both Lebron and Durant are having ridiculous years. Lebron is having a tiny bit better of a year statistically but it is better. You add in that he leads his team in pretty much all stats, just second in blocks. And he is defensively better than Durant. Lebron thus far deserves the MVP although its very close. Durant could still wind up with better stats and the MVP cause its so close and there is a lot more time to prove it.

But as of today, Lebron has been a lil bit better. And for me PER is the best overall measure of who is doing the most on the b-ball court and he leads by two points over durant

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:54 PM
Awesome! I am the one "devaluing" says the guy who insinuates 'all KD needs to do is score' and 'MJ won in a watered down league'. I've never devalued James, in fact I used to hear it all the time for ''backing him up'' on this site when all the hate poured. I love the guy and what he's doing right now. I just need to regulate on kids who feel the need to devalue comparable players while pumping up their icon.

Gain some perspective. Also, maybe actually watch him play and understand positions of the league? That could be a start.


Edit: And I will leave you at that. It's no fun to engage agendas.

Who are you to call someone a kid? You assume people are "kids" because you want to feel superior to them? You're not. I said KD is the best scorer in the history of the game. I said MJ is the GOAT. That's devaluing?

I don't think you even watch James play. LeBron James plays all positions because he can. He's rebounding more because he is everywhere on the court. I don't even know why you brought up their rebounding stats. Ibaka is their best rebounder.

You said understand positions, huh? So why is it LeBron James is outrebounding other PF's? Some of it has to do with their ability to play.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 05:55 PM
I think the bottom line is this.

Both Lebron and Durant are having ridiculous years. Lebron is having a tiny bit better of a year statistically but it is better. You add in that he leads his team in pretty much all stats, just second in blocks. And he is defensively better than Durant. Lebron thus far deserves the MVP although its very close. Durant could still wind up with better stats and the MVP cause its so close and there is a lot more time to prove it.

But as of today, Lebron has been a lil bit better. And for me PER is the best overall measure of who is doing the most on the b-ball court and he leads by two points over durant

Thank you. He doesn't understand any of it and assumes anyone who thinks LBJ is the best is a kid.

justinnum1
02-14-2013, 06:03 PM
^please stop :facepalm:

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 06:06 PM
^please stop :facepalm:

Do I need your permission?

IKnowHoops
02-14-2013, 08:39 PM
OK so not many will care, but to those who agree or disagree, I hope that you are able to understand this cause its pretty cut and dry.

So I made an equation that I think represents who is doing the most in the league. I give a point value for each stat based on the top 20 for each stat. I give a point for scoring, and then find the relativity between pts vs all the other stats to determine the worth of each stat.

Takes into account.
Points and shooting percentage-- (Points-shots)

Asst value-- (avg points of top 20/average asst of to 20) which is (21.76/7.57) which is 2.87

REB value-- (avg points of top 20/average reb of top 20) which is (21.76/10.66) which is 2.04

Blk value-- (avg points of top 20/average blks of top 20) which is (21.76/1.99) which is 10.93

Stl value-- (avg points of top 20/average stls of top 20) which is (21.76/1.84) which is 11.83

TO value-- (avg points of top 20/average TO of top 20) which is (21.76/3.2) which is 6.73

So the equation looks like this:

(Points-shot attempts) + (assts x 2.87) + (reb x 2.04) + (blks x 10.93) + (stl x 11.83) - (TO x 6.73)

Lebron- (27.1 - 18.3) + (6.9 x 2.87) + (8.1 x 2.04) + (.88 x 10.93) + ( 1.65 x 11.83) - (2.9 x 6.73)
Durant- (29.0 - 18.0) + (4.4 x 2.87) + (7.4 x 2.04) + (1.19 x 10.93) + (1.6 x 11.83) - (3.2 x 6.73)

Lebron 54.7
Durant 48.9

So as you can see my equation shows Lebron doing more. Would love to hear from those who understand this equation why it is does or doesnt adequately show who is doing more on the court.

OceanSpray
02-14-2013, 10:41 PM
OK so not many will care, but to those who agree or disagree, I hope that you are able to understand this cause its pretty cut and dry.

So I made an equation that I think represents who is doing the most in the league. I give a point value for each stat based on the top 20 for each stat. I give a point for scoring, and then find the relativity between pts vs all the other stats to determine the worth of each stat.

Takes into account.
Points and shooting percentage-- (Points-shots)

Asst value-- (avg points of top 20/average asst of to 20) which is (21.76/7.57) which is 2.87

REB value-- (avg points of top 20/average reb of top 20) which is (21.76/10.66) which is 2.04

Blk value-- (avg points of top 20/average blks of top 20) which is (21.76/1.99) which is 10.93

Stl value-- (avg points of top 20/average stls of top 20) which is (21.76/1.84) which is 11.83

TO value-- (avg points of top 20/average TO of top 20) which is (21.76/3.2) which is 6.73

So the equation looks like this:

(Points-shot attempts) + (assts x 2.87) + (reb x 2.04) + (blks x 10.93) + (stl x 11.83) - (TO x 6.73)

Lebron- (27.1 - 18.3) + (6.9 x 2.87) + (8.1 x 2.04) + (.88 x 10.93) + ( 1.65 x 11.83) - (2.9 x 6.73)
Durant- (29.0 - 18.0) + (4.4 x 2.87) + (7.4 x 2.04) + (1.19 x 10.93) + (1.6 x 11.83) - (3.2 x 6.73)

Lebron 54.7
Durant 48.9

So as you can see my equation shows Lebron doing more. Would love to hear from those who understand this equation why it is does or doesnt adequately show who is doing more on the court.

They argue with TS% but Durant's free throws are the reason why it's higher. Heck, Shaq sucks if we're judging by TS%. Win shares is a team achievement... The best player on a crappy team will have a crapper WS% than an above average player with average teammates.

b@llhog24
02-14-2013, 10:59 PM
Actually Chronz told me you were trolling. As for the rest I haven't read where one of them disagree with me on this thread.

He was referring to you question on whether LeBron was more productive than Durant just because he lead in PER.

naps
02-15-2013, 12:06 AM
I think LeBron nicely and comfortably cleared the air up for the ones that were still stuck in the middle until this game.

justinnum1
02-15-2013, 12:06 AM
KD scored 40 tonight but a lot of those points were when the game was decided and he was at the foul line like 14 times. Lebron outplayed kd tonight imo

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-15-2013, 12:10 AM
well thats a wrap for the mvp race.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-15-2013, 12:11 AM
my goodness, durant and westy went to the line 26 times tonight. thats just ridiculous.

ManRam
02-15-2013, 12:56 AM
LeBron has taken the clear lead now.

It isn't a wrap yet, though. We haven't even gotten to the All Star Break yet (well, in a few hours...)

IKnowHoops
02-15-2013, 01:20 AM
LeBron has taken the clear lead now.

It isn't a wrap yet, though. We haven't even gotten to the All Star Break yet (well, in a few hours...)

I said he could and would turn his game up and end up winning the mvp and i got killed for saying it.

CHANGO
02-15-2013, 01:33 AM
I don't know what is the question right now... Heat dominated the Thunder in both games this season, and Lebron dominated Durant today. If things keeps going this way and Lebron don't win the MVP it's going to be very very wrong.

Right now Lebron separated himself from Durant. There's no doubt!

Hawkize31
02-15-2013, 01:41 AM
I think the ASG may have significant MVP implications. As the 2 bst players in the NBA this year, the fans are going to be looking for a duel between LBJ and KD. If one player can put on a show and the other can't, it could swing the "MVP momentum" one way or the other.

justinnum1
02-15-2013, 01:59 AM
I dont think the all star game has any impact on the the MVP race.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-15-2013, 02:02 AM
dudes its over lol just like last year, after the head to head, thats it.

finito.

lets move on and focus on the post season already.

naps
02-15-2013, 02:48 AM
^I don't think it's over yet but I do think these head-to-heads will be key in voters mind if they stay neck to neck in the end. For now, LeBron has a clear lead but it's not certainly comfortable. Durant can still catch up.

Hawkeye15
02-15-2013, 02:51 AM
They argue with TS% but Durant's free throws are the reason why it's higher. Heck, Shaq sucks if we're judging by TS%. Win shares is a team achievement... The best player on a crappy team will have a crapper WS% than an above average player with average teammates.

nothing you said here is true...

b@llhog24
02-15-2013, 03:00 AM
nothing you said here is true...

Glad it wasn't only me who noticed that.

Money_23
02-15-2013, 04:16 AM
lmao win shares. Should probably try to understand how win shares are calculated before you post something so idiotic.

Alan Shore
02-15-2013, 06:47 AM
How can it go to anyone other than Lebron? It's silly to even think about anyone else.

justinnum1
02-15-2013, 09:07 AM
nothing you said here is true...

He is on my ignore list for a reason, but the amount of times durant goes to the foul line is something else.

Ebbs
02-15-2013, 09:31 AM
That was the biggest game this far in determining a winner.

LeBron is like a top 10 reason I'm glad I live in the situation I do. It's like watching I don't know a bird fly when he plays ball. Dude was made to be a legend at b-ball

koreancabbage
02-15-2013, 09:59 AM
dude just won the MVP right there. no other MVP candidate will ever probably ever play on such a high level this season, let alone their careers (i.e. Melo). I can see Durant maybe doing that but it would be a feat for the ages.

Il Mago50
02-15-2013, 10:27 AM
So I'm guessing voter fatigue doesn't play in here to give it to KD or CP3?

There is still 26-30 games left and another 2 months so we could see a shifting still in my opinion.

justinnum1
02-15-2013, 01:18 PM
So I'm guessing voter fatigue doesn't play in here to give it to KD or CP3?

There is still 26-30 games left and another 2 months so we could see a shifting still in my opinion.

If kd and bron were having similar seasons it would. But right now bron is on a other level than everyone including kd.

OceanSpray
02-15-2013, 01:20 PM
If you have a better team your WS% will probably go up. If you have a higher TS%, it's most likely your free throws because that's the only thing that is separating LBJ and Durant. You telling me Chandler is the best player?

bucketss
02-15-2013, 01:46 PM
if this was facebook i would tag that laker fan who guaranteed cp3 would win by a landslide:)

xRipCity
02-15-2013, 02:02 PM
LeBron.

Let's start focusing on who will win the MVP 8 years from now.

OceanSpray
02-15-2013, 03:01 PM
LeBron.

Let's start focusing on who will win the MVP 8 years from now.

Probably Irving.

Chronz
02-15-2013, 03:18 PM
They argue with TS% but Durant's free throws are the reason why it's higher.
Are FTs not suppose to count?


Heck, Shaq sucks if we're judging by TS%.
Sucks? No, he just gets dropped down a peg, justifiably so for missing freethrows. Hes still one of the greatest offensive forces of all time.


Win shares is a team achievement... The best player on a crappy team will have a crapper WS% than an above average player with average teammates.
The team component is only (influentially) inherent in the defensive component of WS. Which is why its best to distinguish between the 2.

You can have 2 players with identical boxscore numbers end up with identical OWS on wildly different teams.

OceanSpray
02-15-2013, 03:20 PM
Are FTs not suppose to count?


Sucks? No, he just gets dropped down a peg, justifiably so for missing freethrows. Hes still one of the greatest offensive forces of all time.


The team component is only (influentially) inherent in the defensive component of WS. Which is why its best to distinguish between the 2.

You can have 2 players with identical boxscore numbers end up with identical OWS on wildly different teams.

I'm just saying those advantages that Durant has does not compare to what LeBron has done thus far. Durant could've gotten MVP no doubt in any other year. This year, LeBron has been unstoppable.. Just like yesterday proved.

tredigs
02-15-2013, 03:42 PM
Actually, as Chronz just pointed out, you in fact have no idea what you're saying. Confidence is high though, I'll give you that.

OceanSpray
02-15-2013, 03:43 PM
Actually, as Chronz just pointed out, you in fact have no idea what you're saying. Confidence is high though, I'll give you that.

I know you guys have a gang of PSD posters. It's not the first time I've seen you guys agree with one another. Martin, Westbrook, and Ibaka means you have to guard 4 players at all time. More pressure is on LeBron on the offensive end because the other two guys can't create shots for themselves.

tredigs
02-15-2013, 03:50 PM
Agree that you spout off about players and stats that you clearly don't understand? Yes, we do agree with that. If you took some time to actually learn about the stats that you pretend to understand, and stopped putting yourself on blast like this, it wouldn't be an issue. You're a bad combination of confrontational and ignorant. Chronz was nice enough not to directly insult you. I'm not. But your story is tired. Go learn.

Chronz
02-15-2013, 04:13 PM
I'm just saying those advantages that Durant has does not compare to what LeBron has done thus far. Durant could've gotten MVP no doubt in any other year. This year, LeBron has been unstoppable.. Just like yesterday proved.

That may very well be true, but for someone who has criticized my posting style in the past, your post seemed off to me. Im sure you could do a much better job of backing your opinion

IKnowHoops
02-15-2013, 11:18 PM
I would think its as simple as saying "the eye test tells me that Lebron is better than Durant even though Durant leads him in TS% by that tiny amount."

But if you need more than that, I would say "the eye test, the fact that he leads Durant in rebounds and asst, the fact he just outplayed Durant convincingly all while doing everything out there and making no mistakes, tells me that Lebron is better than Durant even though Durant leads him in TS% by that tiny amount."

ManRam
02-15-2013, 11:48 PM
I mean, considering what TS% takes into account, the fact that a player like LeBron is at 63.7% is nuts. KD should and probably will forever be ahead of LeBron in TS%; that's his game. But Bron being so close is amazing, again considering his style of play. He's a guy who eFG% is gonna favor more (and it does obviously). The fact that he's "only" 2% behind KD is very impressive.

justinnum1
02-15-2013, 11:49 PM
I would think its as simple as saying "the eye test tells me that Lebron is better than Durant even though Durant leads him in TS% by that tiny amount."

But if you need more than that, I would say "the eye test, the fact that he leads Durant in rebounds and asst, the fact he just outplayed Durant convincingly all while doing everything out there and making no mistakes, tells me that Lebron is better than Durant even though Durant leads him in TS% by that tiny amount."

There is no debate as to wether bron is better than durant. The question is how much better? And i think the gap is growing game by game.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2013, 12:36 AM
I'm just saying those advantages that Durant has does not compare to what LeBron has done thus far. Durant could've gotten MVP no doubt in any other year. This year, LeBron has been unstoppable.. Just like yesterday proved.

Do you even have a remote understanding of the advanced stats you are talking about?

Chronz
02-16-2013, 03:13 AM
Ok now it looks like a mob bash fest. I think he gets the point

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-16-2013, 10:48 AM
UPDATE ON THE WS, PER, TS AND W/48 (as per basketball-reference.com):

LeBron- WS-12.3 | Ws/48- .307 | PER- 31.4 | TS%- 63.7
Durant- WS-13.1 | Ws/48- .305 | PER- 29.2 | TS%- 65.7 (all career highs)

wow for someone who is shooting 74% from the line, to be able to keep such a high ts, when youre neither a center or pf is remarkable...

Baller1
02-16-2013, 07:50 PM
It's still a neck-and-neck race.

The only thing that the OKC/Miami game proved was that Miami is going to win the championship again this season and that Durant and Lebron are unfairly good at basketball.

justinnum1
02-16-2013, 08:08 PM
It's still a neck-and-neck race.

The only thing that the OKC/Miami game proved was that Miami is going to win the championship again this season and that Durant and Lebron are unfairly good at basketball.

Spurs would be a tough matchup, they have some good shooters and know how to pass the ball to the open man. Not sure why more teams don't pass the ball vs miami. That is the only way you are going to beat miami in a 7 game series. Multiple extra passes to the open man. Miami does a phenomenal job gurading first and second options, but on those 3rd 4th and 5th passes miami d can be susceptible to leaving guys open, especially since miami will double on the initial ball handler.

Easier said then done i guess

kdspurman
02-16-2013, 09:52 PM
Spurs would be a tough matchup, they have some good shooters and know how to pass the ball to the open man. Not sure why more teams don't pass the ball vs miami. That is the only way you are going to beat miami in a 7 game series. Multiple extra passes to the open man. Miami does a phenomenal job gurading first and second options, but on those 3rd 4th and 5th passes miami d can be susceptible to leaving guys open, especially since miami will double on the initial ball handler.

Easier said then done i guess

Part of the reason it's easier said than done is because so many teams/players aren't disciplined enough to stick with that sort of play. Miami will perhaps go and get 2-3 steals/fast break dunks and the opponent will start rushing, taking jumps early in the shot clock, going 1 on 1 etc... I think that's why I team like SA would be good, Pop knows when to call timeouts, and the team doesn't get flustered. Same could be said for someone like the Clippers with Paul running the show and Chauncey who would have a big hand in keeping the team composed.

Really, can't wait for the playoffs to get here.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 08:04 PM
Lebron vs Durant Main Points:

- Lebron plays in a far weaker Conference.
- Overall individual statistical production is nearly a dead heat with a slight advantage towards Lebron.
- Lebron plays on the better Team...Has 3 future Hall of Famers...plays with D-Wade who is in the top ten this year and Bosh who is top 20. Allen and Battier are two of the best 3pt shooters in NBA history and great perimeter defenders.
- Despite having the far better roster and playing against far lesser competition on a daily basis in a far weaker conference, Lebron has not been able to carry his team to as good of a record as Durant has. That to me is the elephant in the room that none of these Lebronites want to talk about and what absolutely proves without a doubt that this years MVP is Kevin Durant.

stawka
02-17-2013, 08:19 PM
lol @ LeBron having a far better roster

UPRock
02-17-2013, 08:21 PM
Lebron vs Durant Main Points:

- Lebron plays in a far weaker Conference.
- Overall individual statistical production is nearly a dead heat with a slight advantage towards Lebron.
- Lebron plays on the better Team...Has 3 future Hall of Famers...plays with D-Wade who is in the top ten this year and Bosh who is top 20. Allen and Battier are two of the best 3pt shooters in NBA history and great perimeter defenders.
- Despite having the far better roster and playing against far lesser competition on a daily basis in a far weaker conference, Lebron has not been able to carry his team to as good of a record as Durant has. That to me is the elephant in the room that none of these Lebronites want to talk about and what absolutely proves without a doubt that this years MVP is Kevin Durant.

Haters gonna hate, can't say any other thing. :facepalm:

bucketss
02-17-2013, 08:28 PM
Lebron vs Durant Main Points:

- Lebron plays in a far weaker Conference.
- Overall individual statistical production is nearly a dead heat with a slight advantage towards Lebron.
- Lebron plays on the better Team...Has 3 future Hall of Famers...plays with D-Wade who is in the top ten this year and Bosh who is top 20. Allen and Battier are two of the best 3pt shooters in NBA history and great perimeter defenders.
- Despite having the far better roster and playing against far lesser competition on a daily basis in a far weaker conference, Lebron has not been able to carry his team to as good of a record as Durant has. That to me is the elephant in the room that none of these Lebronites want to talk about and what absolutely proves without a doubt that this years MVP is Kevin Durant.

too bad you don't control how the media votes.

bucketss
02-17-2013, 08:34 PM
lol @ LeBron having a far better roster

durant - westbrook are both on wades and lebrons level, now take into account bosh the rest of miamis roster isn't very strong and are undersized, lebron anchors that defense which is impressive for a sf its usually big men who do this, he leads miami in almost every statistical category. guys like amos1er with their very limited basketball knowledge can't comprehend the overall impact lebron has on the heat so he throws statements like this, but hey he can keep praying that lebron is on roids that would probably be the happiest day of his life.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 09:23 PM
Lebron vs Durant Main Points:

- Lebron plays in a far weaker Conference.
- Overall individual statistical production is nearly a dead heat with a slight advantage towards Lebron.
- Lebron plays on the better Team...Has 3 future Hall of Famers...plays with D-Wade who is in the top ten this year and Bosh who is top 20. Allen and Battier are two of the best 3pt shooters in NBA history and great perimeter defenders.
- Despite having the far better roster and playing against far lesser competition on a daily basis in a far weaker conference, Lebron has not been able to carry his team to as good of a record as Durant has. That to me is the elephant in the room that none of these Lebronites want to talk about and what absolutely proves without a doubt that this years MVP is Kevin Durant.

Fantastic post! These LeBronites are out of their minds. Bron isn't even playing better than Kobe did on average days in his prime.

Good job omitting the fact that Miami is 20-5 against the West, could have hurt our message that LeBron sucks.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 09:45 PM
lol @ LeBron having a far better roster

2nd Option: Wade > Westbrook

3rd Option: Bosh > Ibaka

Allen and Battier are better than any bench players the Thunder have.

Only a total Lebron nutthugger would deny that the Heat are the better team.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 09:48 PM
Haters gonna hate, can't say any other thing. :facepalm:

You only can't say another thing because you can't counter any of the points I have made.

Instead you hit me with a meaningless ad hominem insult even further proving solidifying my conclusion that Durant is the clear MVP this season.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 09:50 PM
too bad you don't control how the media votes.

You're right..I can't control how they vote...If I were a deep pocketed Nike or Gatorade spokesman I could however.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 09:51 PM
durant - westbrook are both on wades and lebrons level, now take into account bosh the rest of miamis roster isn't very strong and are undersized, lebron anchors that defense which is impressive for a sf its usually big men who do this, he leads miami in almost every statistical category. guys like amos1er with their very limited basketball knowledge can't comprehend the overall impact lebron has on the heat so he throws statements like this, but hey he can keep praying that lebron is on roids that would probably be the happiest day of his life.

I stopped reading right after you said that Westbrook was on Wades level.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 09:52 PM
Fantastic post! These LeBronites are out of their minds. Bron isn't even playing better than Kobe did on average days in his prime.

Good job omitting the fact that Miami is 20-5 against the West, could have hurt our message that LeBron sucks.

Your newly found sarcasm is not amusing at all.

bucketss
02-17-2013, 10:02 PM
I stopped reading right after you said that Westbrook was on Wades level.

coming from the guy who said wade was done how long ago? lmao i like how you prop wade up when you can use him to discredit bron'.

bucketss
02-17-2013, 10:05 PM
You're right..I can't control how they vote...If I were a deep pocketed Nike or Gatorade spokesman I could however.

exactly, since you live in your mothers basement popping pills to help your kobe paranoia syndrome.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 10:06 PM
coming from the guy who said wade was done how long ago? lmao i like how you prop wade up when you can use him to discredit bron'.

Even an aging Wade is still better than Westbrook who is currently shooting 42% from the field.

amos1er
02-17-2013, 10:07 PM
exactly, since you live in your mothers basement popping pills to help your kobe paranoia syndrome.

Yep...You got me pinned. :rolleyes:

bucketss
02-17-2013, 10:21 PM
Even an aging Wade is still better than Westbrook who is currently shooting 42% from the field.

i wonder what his % would be playing alongside a guys like lebron:rolleyes: i didn't say westbrook is better but hes definitely on the tier as wade actually you can argue it he sure looked like the better player during the finals.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 10:23 PM
You only can't say another thing because you can't counter any of the points I have made.

Instead you hit me with a meaningless ad hominem insult even further proving solidifying my conclusion that Durant is the clear MVP this season.

Your entire credibility is invalid since LBJ is 20/5 against the West. This means LeBron has more trouble beating the East than the West. Hmmm, it seems you lose.

bucketss
02-17-2013, 10:29 PM
Your entire credibility is invalid since LBJ is 20/5 against the West. This means LeBron has more trouble beating the East than the West. Hmmm, it seems you lose.

west don't play defense like the east, lebron will beat that ***** all day.

justinnum1
02-17-2013, 10:29 PM
i wonder what his % would be playing alongside a guys like lebron:rolleyes: i didn't say westbrook is better but hes definitely on the tier as wade actually you can argue it he sure looked like the better player during the finals.

he plays alongside durant lol

wade>westbrick

bucketss
02-17-2013, 10:36 PM
I agree that Wade is not done. He is still the 3rd best sg in the NBA under Kobe and Harden. He is just declining, he is not done. He can probably maintain his rank as the 3rd best sg in the league for the next 2 seasons at least.

Harden is easily the #2 sg in the NBA right now, it's really foolish to say otherwise:

Harden: 24.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 5.6 apg, TS% .579, PER 20.7, WS/48 .147

Wade: 20.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.3 apg, TS% .567, PER 21.5, WS/48 .144

according to amos1er the troll,wade isn't even a top 2 sg and harden is easily better but westbrook isn't on wades level #checkmate #KingTrollGotNothingOnMe

bucketss
02-17-2013, 10:37 PM
he plays alongside durant lol

wade>westbrick

i never said westbrook was better smh and durant wouldn't create for him like lebron would.

ManRam
02-17-2013, 11:07 PM
Your newly found sarcasm is not amusing at all.

1. I've always been sarcastic.

2. If anyone's act is getting old, it's yours. Be rational, for once. It's a damn shame you hate someone so much to let it not only cloud your judgement, but prevent you from enjoying something you might never get another chance to enjoy ever again in the NBA. Your loss.

Hate on.

OceanSpray
02-17-2013, 11:09 PM
James Harden over Wade? Wade gets the ball 30% of the time and puts up the most efficient numbers p48 for a SG./

naps
02-17-2013, 11:21 PM
Lebron vs Durant Main Points:

- Lebron plays in a far weaker Conference.
- Overall individual statistical production is nearly a dead heat with a slight advantage towards Lebron.
- Lebron plays on the better Team...Has 3 future Hall of Famers...plays with D-Wade who is in the top ten this year and Bosh who is top 20. Allen and Battier are two of the best 3pt shooters in NBA history and great perimeter defenders.
- Despite having the far better roster and playing against far lesser competition on a daily basis in a far weaker conference, Lebron has not been able to carry his team to as good of a record as Durant has. That to me is the elephant in the room that none of these Lebronites want to talk about and what absolutely proves without a doubt that this years MVP is Kevin Durant.

You are just sad. It hurts you badly that LeBron is miles and miles ahead of your boy who can't come close to MVP discussion.

IKnowHoops
02-18-2013, 02:48 AM
You only can't say another thing because you can't counter any of the points I have made.

Instead you hit me with a meaningless ad hominem insult even further proving solidifying my conclusion that Durant is the clear MVP this season.

I will discredit your posts. answer me these questions

1. If Lebron plays with better players, but he is not better than Durant, why is it that He leads his team in pts/rbs/asst/steals and Durant on a worse team cannot?

2. If Lebron team is better, how come his team cant out rebound, out asst, or out steal him, but OKC can out rebound, out asst, and out steal Durant.

If Durant was doing more than Lebron, then hed be leading his team in more stats then Lebron does

If Durants team was worse then Lebrons, then Durant would be leading his team in more stats then Lebron does