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JWO35
02-07-2013, 06:18 PM
Okay...before :burn: me hear me out. Most people see Jordan as the "best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be". Now I'm not saying he isn't the best basketball player to play the game, but it seems like people put him on this pedestal and proclaim him to be lightyears better than other All-Time greats(Magic, Russell, Kobe, etc.)

Is it basketball blasphemy to say Jordan is overrated?
Is it even possible for the GOAT to be overrated?

kozelkid
02-07-2013, 06:21 PM
I never understood these "overrated" and "underrated" discussions. It's matter of perspective, so I see no beneficial end point that ever gets resulted from these discussions. To some he's "overrated" to some he's "underrated," and to others he's rated just fine. And that can be pin-pointed to just about ANY player in the league.

JEDean89
02-07-2013, 06:24 PM
dude, he is the consensus goat for a reason. sure some people may be able to match some of his individual accolades (russell with rings, jabar with all time points, stockton with steals, chamberlain tied his per game scoring output and some players even had some playoffs games to rival his) but no player challenges jordan in all the categories, there is no other player who has that many rings while scoring like that and had that great of performances. when you tool together russells success in the playoffs, chamberlains per game scoring with stockton's steals and abdul jabar like all time scoring you get.... the greatest player of all time.

JAZZNC
02-07-2013, 06:24 PM
What he said. It's all a matter of public opinion.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 06:25 PM
Overrated is a matter of perspective. But MJ was the best player to ever lace them up. Will he be passed? Sure, eventually.

lamzoka
02-07-2013, 06:25 PM
i dont know if im crazy but i honestly believe that kobe bryant is overrated.

jerellh528
02-07-2013, 06:27 PM
Of course he is overrated. Many believe he did no wrong on the court, its human nature to cling to such beliefs. The fact is many people who do this weren't even old enough to watch him play. Those of us old enough to witness know that players like magic, kobe, lebron, aren't too far off as basketball players. With that being said Jordan is still the GOAT.

Nats_vcu-Okc35
02-07-2013, 06:27 PM
I didn't vote because this is a ridiculous question. No numbers or specifics to even back up your argument? At least give me something to refute.

What time is it? Research time.

Sactown
02-07-2013, 06:31 PM
Absolutely overrated, Had Pippen been able to get over the hump the season MJ was gone, I think we'd be looking at MJ a different way.. To much of the public views MJ as Superman, when realistically he had one of the greatest supporting casts ever..

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-07-2013, 06:31 PM
Overrated is a matter of perspective. But MJ was the best player to ever lace them up. Will he be passed? Sure, eventually.

Is this your way of sneaking lebron into the convo :p

DeRaptor95
02-07-2013, 06:31 PM
Michael Jordan could not win a playoff series without pippen

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-07-2013, 06:34 PM
i dont know if im crazy but i honestly believe that kobe bryant is overrated.

Lulz. He's Underrated around here.

Chronz
02-07-2013, 06:35 PM
The GOAT can be overrated

Hes still the GOAT

JasonJohnHorn
02-07-2013, 06:36 PM
dude, he is the consensus goat for a reason.

Firstly, he is not the consensus GOAT. I am not alone in believing that he is NOT the best player to ever play the game.


Anybody who says that Jordan is the clear cut and definitive GOAT, either over-estimates what he did, or underestimates what others have done.

Jordan was an amazing player, no doubt, and the best SG of all time, but at the end of the day, there were people who were no less amazing than Jordan. I would say, even within his own generation, Malone, Hakeem and Barkley were as good as Jordan, even if they didn't win as much, and that Bird and Magic were as special as was Jordan, and I wouldn't argue with somebody who put Dr. J in that conversation either. Wilt, Russell and The Big O are all worthy of the accolades many heap on Jordan, and of the most recent generation I would suggest that Shaq and certainly Duncan have carried as much of an impact on the court as did Jordan, and the same could be said of perhaps Garnett as well, and I'm sure the Kobe-philes out there would put Kobe in the conversation, though to me the stat comparisons, defensive ability and rng count clearly favor Jordan handily. And LBJ is certainly making his case to be in the conversation by the time he retired.

I used to, as a die hard Pistons fan from back in the day, despised Jordan, and I still don't like him, but I do have a great respect for what he did on the court, but I must say that there are a host of other players who were just as talented as he was.

OceanSpray
02-07-2013, 06:36 PM
For those saying he is the greatest ever, sure. How great? 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen.
Like I mentioned on my other post, people always favor the old time players. MJ revolutionized basketball like Joe Montana revolutionized football. Babe Ruth, they call him the greatest ever... Elvis Presley, best ever. The point is people are all homesick and will always say back then was better, etc. Example, swimming and track. These are sports that we can truly determine who is better because of the time being recorded. They said Mark Spitz was the greatest ever.. Phelps smashed it like it was cake. Usain Bolt broke every record possible.. Very overrated. He's the best ever, no doubt. But there are certain players who would've been that "MJ" if they reversed eras. If Kobe played in that era instead of Jordan, people are going to say Kobe is the best because he played in a tougher era. It's all psychologically inside us that creates this effect.

jerellh528
02-07-2013, 06:36 PM
Lets put it this way, the season after MJ retired the first time, the bulls only had a swing of 2 in the win/loss column from 57/25 to 55/27. MJ was only worth 2 wins? Just shows how great his cast was.

JasonJohnHorn
02-07-2013, 06:38 PM
i dont know if im crazy but i honestly believe that kobe bryant is overrated.
DING DING DING DING DING!!!!! Ahmen!

todu82
02-07-2013, 06:40 PM
No. Jordan's not over-rated. He's rightly considered the best player of all time.

pacofunk64
02-07-2013, 06:43 PM
It's not just about what he did on the court it's also what he did off of it in terms of marketing and brand. He single handily saved basketball from extinction imo.

ManRam
02-07-2013, 06:45 PM
I never understood these "overrated" and "underrated" discussions. It's matter of perspective, so I see no beneficial end point that ever gets resulted from these discussions. To some he's "overrated" to some he's "underrated," and to others he's rated just fine. And that can be pin-pointed to just about ANY player in the league.

Amen.

Some overrate him, some underrate him. The consensus might be somewhat skewed, but probably not much

Sactown
02-07-2013, 06:45 PM
It's not just about what he did on the court it's also what he did off of it in terms of marketing and brand. He single handily saved basketball from extinction imo.

That has much more with Nike than it does with Jordan.

boateng
02-07-2013, 07:26 PM
Firstly, he is not the consensus GOAT. I am not alone in believing that he is NOT the best player to ever play the game.


Anybody who says that Jordan is the clear cut and definitive GOAT, either over-estimates what he did, or underestimates what others have done.

Jordan was an amazing player, no doubt, and the best SG of all time, but at the end of the day, there were people who were no less amazing than Jordan. I would say, even within his own generation, Malone, Hakeem and Barkley were as good as Jordan, even if they didn't win as much, and that Bird and Magic were as special as was Jordan, and I wouldn't argue with somebody who put Dr. J in that conversation either. Wilt, Russell and The Big O are all worthy of the accolades many heap on Jordan, and of the most recent generation I would suggest that Shaq and certainly Duncan have carried as much of an impact on the court as did Jordan, and the same could be said of perhaps Garnett as well, and I'm sure the Kobe-philes out there would put Kobe in the conversation, though to me the stat comparisons, defensive ability and rng count clearly favor Jordan handily. And LBJ is certainly making his case to be in the conversation by the time he retired.

I used to, as a die hard Pistons fan from back in the day, despised Jordan, and I still don't like him, but I do have a great respect for what he did on the court, but I must say that there are a host of other players who were just as talented as he was.

Well it's not just about talent. It's about killer instinct, will etc....

Also if those players were better why didnt Barkley and Malone win any rings against him? The answer is, those players were not as good.

Barkley, Stockton and Malone are all ringless.

boateng
02-07-2013, 07:27 PM
That has much more with Nike than it does with Jordan.

No. Not all players can sell that many shoes. Why does Air Jordan still sell like crazy. You can give a Nike contract to a player, but if he isnt marketable, he won't sell/

Keep3HEATSOnMe
02-07-2013, 07:28 PM
Is Halle Berry ugly?

OceanSpray
02-07-2013, 07:37 PM
As I said before, Michael revolutionized basketball. He was the first to actually create a huge buzz about it. Magic, Kareem, Wilt, none of them were big time like MJ. Put Kobe and LeBron in that era and they would be that savior that basketball never had during that time.

Mr_Jones
02-07-2013, 07:41 PM
I personally think he is. He was hyped more than anyone ever. Lebron is up there, too. But I still think Jordan got more.

upt_
02-07-2013, 07:46 PM
What's up with all these "BashABull" threads ?

ztilzer31
02-07-2013, 07:53 PM
I think Phil Jackson isn't taken into consideration. People need to remember MJ also had the best coach of all time helping him out. There's a reason Jordan retired when Phil left.

jayjay33
02-07-2013, 07:53 PM
Oh he'll yeah, most overrated player IN ANY SPORT ever!

People act like he walked on water. Jordan would have to be baby Jesus, to live up to the hype.

OceanSpray
02-07-2013, 07:58 PM
Why is Jordan 1-10 without Pippen and when Pippen came, he started winning big time? Fact: Because Pippen did all the dirty work for Jordan to succeed.

JWO35
02-07-2013, 08:20 PM
No. Not all players can sell that many shoes. Why does Air Jordan still sell like crazy. You can give a Nike contract to a player, but if he isnt marketable, he won't sell/

Seems like more of a marketing thing... Asking why people buy $200 gym shoes is another thing.

LAKERMANIA
02-07-2013, 08:33 PM
I don't think he is overrated, but I do think he gets overrated from time to time when people say "No one will ever be a better player than Michael Jordan"

StarvingKnick22
02-07-2013, 08:34 PM
Yes.

ATX
02-07-2013, 08:38 PM
Didn't vote, I think he's rated just fine. Greatest player of all time thus far, with LeBron beginning to make a case, but from what I've seen, he is overrated at times, but never underrated.

STA_PLAR
02-07-2013, 08:53 PM
Here come the 15 to 20 year olds who were too young to witness the greatest. Not overrated, deserves everything he is recognized for.

hidalgo
02-07-2013, 08:56 PM
he doesn't have to be light years ahead of other greats, just better, & he is

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 08:59 PM
Is this your way of sneaking lebron into the convo :p

I have said LeBron is the only guy who has a chance currently playing, but its at 5%. So, most likely not happening. Someone will pass MJ, it may be 20-50 years from now, but someone will. I don't think LeBron will do it, unless everything goes perfect for him going forward.

LeperMessiah
02-07-2013, 09:00 PM
Somebody actually put time to make this thread happen. That did happen.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:00 PM
For those saying he is the greatest ever, sure. How great? 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen.
Like I mentioned on my other post, people always favor the old time players. MJ revolutionized basketball like Joe Montana revolutionized football. Babe Ruth, they call him the greatest ever... Elvis Presley, best ever. The point is people are all homesick and will always say back then was better, etc. Example, swimming and track. These are sports that we can truly determine who is better because of the time being recorded. They said Mark Spitz was the greatest ever.. Phelps smashed it like it was cake. Usain Bolt broke every record possible.. Very overrated. He's the best ever, no doubt. But there are certain players who would've been that "MJ" if they reversed eras. If Kobe played in that era instead of Jordan, people are going to say Kobe is the best because he played in a tougher era. It's all psychologically inside us that creates this effect.

Best numbers ever. Played in the hand check era where you could manhandle guards, and still put up numbers never seen before. A tenacious defender. Couldn't be stopped for a decade from doing anything he wanted. 6-0 in the finals. Literally beat every star of his era routinely.

GOAT, without a doubt. You think Kobe, or these fools now play in a tougher era? hahaha

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:02 PM
so many young people on this site. If you watched Jordan, you know he was the GOAT. He did things nobody else in the history of the game can do.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:04 PM
I don't think he is overrated, but I do think he gets overrated from time to time when people say "No one will ever be a better player than Michael Jordan"

For sure. Somewhere in the future, someone will not only be on the individual level he was, but also be given the help roster wise he had. LeBron I think might be as close as we have ever seen as an individual, but the wasted years in Cleveland, and his failures in the finals 2 years ago, create a large gap that he will have a hella time bridging to get back into that convo.

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:06 PM
so many young people on this site. If you watched Jordan, you know he was the GOAT. He did things nobody else in the history of the game can do.

With the best supporting cast anyone ever had..

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:12 PM
With the best supporting cast anyone ever had..

not quite. Obviously it was a great cast by year 7, but Jordan is the best I have ever seen, and his numbers show my eye test is right on. He was the most dominant player I have ever seen. Nobody could stop him.

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:14 PM
not quite. Obviously it was a great cast by year 7, but Jordan is the best I have ever seen, and his numbers show my eye test is right on. He was the most dominant player I have ever seen. Nobody could stop him.

There's definitely a debate between him and prime Shaq for who was the most dominate.. I agree Jordan is the greatest ever, 6 Rings in a short time, Killer numbers..

But how he's looked at to me is overrated. The margin between 1st and 2nd is closer than most will admit to.

blastmasta26
02-07-2013, 09:21 PM
Why are people bringing up his lack of playoff success without Pippen? Players don't win titles themselves, not even playoff series when the competition is tough. Good teams know how to beat one man teams. Of course Jordan had a great supporting cast when he started winning, but that's not exclusive to him. Jordan's dominance has him rightly considered as the GOAT. He might be overrated by those who think that there will never be someone as good as MJ, but the general consensus seems to be correct regarding him.

Bruno
02-07-2013, 09:24 PM
i think he's overrated.

but i also think he's the GOAT. i just think his lore has been slightly exaggerated by advertisers and big money.

:shrug:

JonnyBrav000
02-07-2013, 09:28 PM
dude, he is the consensus goat for a reason. sure some people may be able to match some of his individual accolades (russell with rings, jabar with all time points, stockton with steals, chamberlain tied his per game scoring output and some players even had some playoffs games to rival his) but no player challenges jordan in all the categories, there is no other player who has that many rings while scoring like that and had that great of performances. when you tool together russells success in the playoffs, chamberlains per game scoring with stockton's steals and abdul jabar like all time scoring you get.... the greatest player of all time.



I second this, Jordan did have a good supporting cast, but what championship team doesn't??? Jordan won 6 titles in 6 1/2 years, two straight 3peats and he really could have kept going and going because Jordan retired as the best active player in the NBA. He literally kept guys like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Hakeem (He won twice while Jordan was in early retirement), Miller, Payton, Ewing, Mourning etc from winning a championship, who the hell else was so dominate that they kept all the other elite guys in their prime from ever winning a championship while they were around? Not only this but Jordan was a 5x MVP, who got robed a few times, a 6x finals MVP, all time PPG leader, most scoring titles ever, past defensive player of the year, a mainstay at all-first team defense, led the Bulls to the greatest record in NBA history, come on he is the GOAT, even Magic Johnson who is one of the greatest himself has no problem acknowledging this.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 09:32 PM
Supporting cast huh? wennington, hodges, longley, caffey,sellers randy brown, post injury Ron harper (nowhere near the Cleveland version), old cartwright (not the young version). Gimme pippen, rodman, ho grant, and kukoc as a role player, throw out all the rest, most couldn't stick on some teams back then. You'd do better to give the credit P. Jackson, not his suprrting cast, it was trash. Pippen was underrated though, but he didn't have the offensive arsenal to carry a team (although offense is overrated). That just of the top of my head....

effen5
02-07-2013, 09:34 PM
There's definitely a debate between him and prime Shaq for who was the most dominate.. I agree Jordan is the greatest ever, 6 Rings in a short time, Killer numbers..

But how he's looked at to me is overrated. The margin between 1st and 2nd is closer than most will admit to.

Curious....how old are you?

Wade n Fade
02-07-2013, 09:35 PM
Jordan is the greatest right now. By the time it is all said and done, I think Lebron will surpass him. Not based on rings, but based on PER and stats. (Rings are all what people care about, but I think Lebron will have better stats, and he has the tools to surpass MJ, but he is not better than MJ.) Kobrick Bryant is the most overrated player of all time though. He is not even the greatest Laker of all time.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 09:35 PM
Great point about the defensive rule changes and physicality of the game back then, it's catered to offensive wing players now, much tougher in MJ's day

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:36 PM
Curious....how old are you?

72

tdg823
02-07-2013, 09:39 PM
Who is this supporting cast you guys keep praising? And the difference between Jordan and everyone else is clutchosity. The man just willed wins like no one ever. You just knew he'd do it and he did, no doubts.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:40 PM
There's definitely a debate between him and prime Shaq for who was the most dominate.. I agree Jordan is the greatest ever, 6 Rings in a short time, Killer numbers..

But how he's looked at to me is overrated. The margin between 1st and 2nd is closer than most will admit to.

I stated on my first post, anyone can be overrated, but he is still the GOAT

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:42 PM
I stated on my first post, anyone can be overrated, but he is still the GOAT

I absolutely agree he's the goat, but teams win championships, not 1 player.. I think he's given to much credit for what Chicago did, not saying he didn't deserve a lot of it.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 09:42 PM
Jordan did play with some good spot up shooters...kerr, paxson hodges. buchler. but those guys were below average in just about every other way

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:44 PM
Jordan did play with some good spot up shooters...kerr, paxson hodges. buchler. but those guys were below average in just about every other way

An average team doesn't win 55 games when their star leaves....

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:45 PM
I absolutely agree he's the goat, but teams win championships, not 1 player.. I think he's given to much credit for what Chicago did, not saying he didn't deserve a lot of it.

I think at times he is given too much credit as well. But let me ask you something. Do the Bulls win a single championship in the 90's without him? Can you find me a suitable replacement, and say they would have had anywhere near the success?

JonnyBrav000
02-07-2013, 09:47 PM
I don't understand what you are talking about, one minute you say Jordan is the greatest, the next you say Lebron will pass him based on stats, but that Jordan is still better. Tell you what, unless Lebron can win at least 3, I don't care what his stats look like, you cannot even start that conversation. Even with 3, he is still missing 3 championships and if you compare numbers, Jordan has been a more efficient shooter than Lebron and you cannot compare both players in the clutch, Jordan is so past Lebron in the clutch factor that even Lebron fan boys would never dare to shoot this down.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:50 PM
I don't understand what you are talking about, one minute you say Jordan is the greatest, the next you say Lebron will pass him based on stats, but that Jordan is still better. Tell you what, unless Lebron can win at least 3, I don't care what his stats look like, you cannot even start that conversation. Even with 3, he is still missing 3 championships and if you compare numbers, Jordan has been a more efficient shooter than Lebron and you cannot compare both players in the clutch, Jordan is so past Lebron in the clutch factor that even Lebron fan boys would never dare to shoot this down.

way more to do with basketball than what you just set as the parameters, but yes, LeBron's chance of being the GOAT is very, very slim. In fact, extremely not likely.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 09:51 PM
I'm more inclined to think those wins had to do with the coach though. Good coaching, good sysytem, veteran players that had been running that system for awhile. Sounds like the makings of a team that overachieves in the regular season

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:52 PM
I think at times he is given too much credit as well. But let me ask you something. Do the Bulls win a single championship in the 90's without him? Can you find me a suitable replacement, and say they would have had anywhere near the success?
Hard to play that game with most NBA talents..

Do the Lakers 3 peet without Shaq? Is there someone in the league at the time that could of put up those insane numbers?

Spurs without Duncan? Can anyone come in and play the same role as arguably the greatest PF of all time?

Don't take me as an MJ hater, but the Bulls were obviously a legit Star away from a championship, luckily, they didn't have just any star, but the greatest to play the game.. Jordan dominated an Era, but what he did isn't insurmountable...

hidalgo
02-07-2013, 09:53 PM
Great point about the defensive rule changes and physicality of the game back then, it's catered to offensive wing players now, much tougher in MJ's daytruth

monzternipz12
02-07-2013, 09:53 PM
overated?? how do you overate the GOAT?!

If you actually haven't seen the man play (not on Youtube videos) then you shouldn't have an opinion on how "overrated" he is.

Damn children on this website!!

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:53 PM
I'm more inclined to think those wins had to do with the coach though. Good coaching, good sysytem, veteran players that had been running that system for awhile. Sounds like the makings of a team that overachieves in the regular season

Can't play that game.. If the coaching was so great then you'd have to take away from what Jordan did, if you're willing to take away from what everyone else on the roster did.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 09:55 PM
Hard to play that game with most NBA talents..

Do the Lakers 3 peet without Shaq? Is there someone in the league at the time that could of put up those insane numbers?

Spurs without Duncan? Can anyone come in and play the same role as arguably the greatest PF of all time?

Don't take me as an MJ hater, but the Bulls were obviously a legit Star away from a championship, luckily, they didn't have just any star, but the greatest to play the game.. Jordan dominated an Era, but what he did isn't insurmountable...

I asked you for a replacement, not removing an all timer from their team. Would Drexler or Reggie won 6/6 chips if they replaced Michael? That is a hell no dude.

hidalgo
02-07-2013, 09:56 PM
Hard to play that game with most NBA talents..

Do the Lakers 3 peet without Shaq? Is there someone in the league at the time that could of put up those insane numbers?

Spurs without Duncan? Can anyone come in and play the same role as arguably the greatest PF of all time?

Don't take me as an MJ hater, but the Bulls were obviously a legit Star away from a championship, luckily, they didn't have just any star, but the greatest to play the game.. Jordan dominated an Era, but what he did isn't insurmountable...but he didn't even "max out" on tites, he "settled" for 6. if he wanted more than that he'd have never retired the first time, & then came back for 99 & 2000 seasons, with a revamped buls roster, or join the spurs

Sactown
02-07-2013, 09:58 PM
I asked you for a replacement, not removing an all timer from their team. Would Drexler or Reggie won 6/6 chips if they replaced Michael? That is a hell no dude.

Exactly? could you have replaced Shaq or Duncan, and my answer is no... No you couldn't have replaced MJ and won 6 chips, But say Jordan is drafted to the Kings and Reggie ends up on the Bulls, could they of ended up with 3 rings? Possibly? Not sure how to answer that question.

Guppyfighter
02-07-2013, 10:00 PM
Shaq had better prime years, but MJ was definitely the best career wise.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:02 PM
Exactly? could you have replaced Shaq or Duncan, and my answer is no... No you couldn't have replaced MJ and won 6 chips, But say Jordan is drafted to the Kings and Reggie ends up on the Bulls, could they of ended up with 3 rings? Possibly? Not sure how to answer that question.

I think you can. Shaq would be difficult, but he also played in an era with dying centers. Duncan, flip him for KG, and they still win chips.

Jordan was the catalyst for those teams. Does his impact get overrated at times? Sure, but those caught up in the lore of his career. But the fact is, there has never been a better player in the world in the sport of professional basketball. You are a kid, I know you have only been able to watch him after the fact, but dude, he simply ate everyone alive, even before the help came. Nobody could stop him.

As Bird put it, "he is god in basketball shoes". I have never seen a player dominate on both ends, for 100 games a year, like Michael. He literally had no weaknesses.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:02 PM
Shaq had better prime years, but MJ was definitely the best career wise.

Shaq did not have better prime years dude. MJ's peak and prime are what define his greatness.

I will say, if Shaq was a career 70% foul shooter, he might be in this discussion.

Teufelshunde4
02-07-2013, 10:05 PM
Why is Jordan 1-10 without Pippen and when Pippen came, he started winning big time? Fact: Because Pippen did all the dirty work for Jordan to succeed.

Your statement shows how little you know of MJ and those Bulls teams.

How many HOF did Magic play with? Bird? West? Wilt? Oscar?

Pip and Rodman were MJ's only HOF teammate's in his career.. And half of MJ's rings were won without Rodman..

AWC713
02-07-2013, 10:10 PM
ill say hes overrated in this sense: the aura surrounding MJ is that it is impossible to become greater than MJ. it IS most definately possible. lebron COULD but people write him off although hes only 28.

the greats in other sports, like ruth, arent considered untouchable like MJ.

Guppyfighter
02-07-2013, 10:10 PM
Shaq did not have better prime years dude. MJ's peak and prime are what define his greatness.

I will say, if Shaq was a career 70% foul shooter, he might be in this discussion.

Michael Jordan had the best peak I believe. But in terms of the prime MJ and Shaq were very, very close. And there is an argument for Shaq to be made.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 10:13 PM
You guys remember the numbers he put up before he started winning rings? And he didn't even that much range back then.

And I can have my cake and eat it and my pie too, thank you. The coaching was part of it i think, how much who knows. Bottom line to be that dominant they both had to be d*mn good. But that one year I don't just credit to the coaching, vets ran it well, played hard all year probably, did what vets off of title teams do, that stuff translates to wins over the grind of a regular season.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:18 PM
Michael Jordan had the best peak I believe. But in terms of the prime MJ and Shaq were very, very close. And there is an argument for Shaq to be made.

I am not saying its a runaway, but when you factor in Jordan being impactful on the defensive end to a degree Shaq never was, it starts to separate.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:19 PM
ill say hes overrated in this sense: the aura surrounding MJ is that it is impossible to become greater than MJ. it IS most definately possible. lebron COULD but people write him off although hes only 28.

the greats in other sports, like ruth, arent considered untouchable like MJ.

Yep, that is the main reason he can be overrated. I agree.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 10:23 PM
The thing with the shaq comparison and it's relevant to discussion in today's game is how do you define best player? If I play with 6th graders, I better dominate. who was equal to him in physical skill and stature? Sabonis? joking... So shouldn't he dominate?
It's like the Wilt discussion. He was just physically next generation in his time, Like genetic evloution just hiccuped and spit out an athlete from 30 years in the future, size ans athletsicm wise. He should have dominated.
Jordan, while athletically a freak didn't dominate over his peers in that sense as much (Dominique for one was just as if not more athletic, best in game dunker of my life, but that's another time...). At least in my opinion. So is the big guy blessed with tools better or the smaller guy with deadly skills? I guess my opinion is apparent....

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:27 PM
The thing with the shaq comparison and it's relevant to discussion in today's game is how do you define best player? If I play with 6th graders, I better dominate. who was equal to him in physical skill and stature? Sabonis? joking... So shouldn't he dominate?
It's like the Wilt discussion. He was just physically next generation in his time, Like genetic evloution just hiccuped and spit out an athlete from 30 years in the future, size ans athletsicm wise. He should have dominated.
Jordan, while athletically a freak didn't dominate over his peers in that sense as much (Dominique for one was just as if not more athletic, best in game dunker of my life, but that's another time...). At least in my opinion. So is the big guy blessed with tools better or the smaller guy with deadly skills? I guess my opinion is apparent....

you can only be judged against your peers.

Guppyfighter
02-07-2013, 10:30 PM
you can only be judged against your peers.


Yeah, it doesn't matter where you might be 20 years in the future/past. It matters what your percentile you are in the group you play with and the impact you had on the court. I believe there can be generational adjustments though ( I imagine that's impossible in basketball), but it is very possible in baseball. Runs created in 1960 and below are more valuable because there were less of them. And it's very easy to adjust to that.

I don't see a way to properly do that for basketball though.

ryder78c
02-07-2013, 10:40 PM
he is overrated but he was easily the greatest player i know that sounds weird but people act like other greats are not even close to him skill wise but he was good he would get burned and everybody remember who did it but its also vise versa with him i think Lebron as a basketball player will get better and by the times its all done he'll be the guy but kobe's on the record Books

Hawkeye15
02-07-2013, 10:42 PM
Yeah, it doesn't matter where you might be 20 years in the future/past. It matters what your percentile you are in the group you play with and the impact you had on the court. I believe there can be generational adjustments though ( I imagine that's impossible in basketball), but it is very possible in baseball. Runs created in 1960 and below are more valuable because there were less of them. And it's very easy to adjust to that.

I don't see a way to properly do that for basketball though.

Well, in a sport where size, strength, and speed are so important, you have to judge against era's. I mean, put KG back in 1955, or LeBron. It would be game over, so that isn't fair to judge those players from that era in that manner.

tdg823
02-07-2013, 10:56 PM
I guess I disagree to some extent. When having greatest of all time conversations, everything should be waited appropriately. Not that that one aspect should be a huge deal, but don't disregard it completely in historic conversations. Shaq was great, but judge him against similiar players of all time and then aginst their level of competion. You'd say well such and such had to beat so and so to accomlpish what they did... Look what competition so and so had to face every night...So that aspect is relevant

I mean how good was George Mikan, REALLY?

ChitownSports16
02-07-2013, 11:10 PM
Everyone in the NBA is overrated

lol, please
02-08-2013, 01:32 AM
Of course he is overrated. Many believe he did no wrong on the court, its human nature to cling to such beliefs. The fact is many people who do this weren't even old enough to watch him play. Those of us old enough to witness know that players like magic, kobe, lebron, aren't too far off as basketball players. With that being said Jordan is still the GOAT.
I am old enough to remember watching him play, and this couldn't be farther from the truth. Jordan is like Rice in the NFL. No one is close. And the notion of it, this thread, is absurd, even for the NBA forum, and that's saying alot.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 01:50 AM
Hawkeye is pulling garbage out of his butt. It's only logical for him to back up MJ since he's like 52 years old.

The fact is Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen. I don't care how you put it, MJ wasn't seriously competing until Pippen came along. LeBron brought his team to the NBA finals with a crappy roster. You guys bring up hand checking but fail to realize that Jordan could hand check as well, thus allowing for his defensive prowess. Works both ways.

You really think players of that era could stop LeBron? Based off what? This mental breakdown of trashtalking? LeBron is mentally weak? He's been the most scrutinized player in NBA history and he handled it just fine.

As Barkley said, Michael did everything good. LeBron is just bigger, stronger, and faster. If Michael was unguardable, James would be untouchable. The league today is filled with athleticism that shouldn't even compare to Jordan's era.

Barkley is usually spot on, he thinks LeBron will end up as the GOAT when it's all said and done. Saying MJ played in a tougher era is very misleading.

LongWayFromHome
02-08-2013, 01:58 AM
Overrated is a matter of perspective. But MJ was the best player to ever lace them up. Will he be passed? Sure, eventually.

While math says you are right that he will be passed eventually - the social trend is leading towards more and more players like Dwight Howard mentally and less and less players who have a manly nac for winning. So it is POSSIBLE that he will never be passed.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 02:07 AM
Hawkeye is pulling garbage out of his butt. It's only logical for him to back up MJ since he's like 52 years old.

The fact is Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen. I don't care how you put it, MJ wasn't seriously competing until Pippen came along. LeBron brought his team to the NBA finals with a crappy roster. You guys bring up hand checking but fail to realize that Jordan could hand check as well, thus allowing for his defensive prowess. Works both ways.

You really think players of that era could stop LeBron? Based off what? This mental breakdown of trashtalking? LeBron is mentally weak? He's been the most scrutinized player in NBA history and he handled it just fine.

As Barkley said, Michael did everything good. LeBron is just bigger, stronger, and faster. If Michael was unguardable, James would be untouchable. The league today is filled with athleticism that shouldn't even compare to Jordan's era.

Barkley is usually spot on, he thinks LeBron will end up as the GOAT when it's all said and done. Saying MJ played in a tougher era is very misleading.

You keep bringing up his playoff defeats without Pippen like they mean anything. They were his first three years in the league (finally getting his team to the playoffs after they had been 27 win teams the prior couple years), and he averaged 37/6/7 with 2.5 stls + 1.5 blks. The 2nd two of those years were losses to the legendary late 80's Celtics - many who argue as the greatest team of All Time.

Even if you're the soon to be Goat, you're not beating legends as a young star with little help.

Jordan was quite easily better than Lebron.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 02:07 AM
Hawkeye is pulling garbage out of his butt. It's only logical for him to back up MJ since he's like 52 years old.

The fact is Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen. I don't care how you put it, MJ wasn't seriously competing until Pippen came along. LeBron brought his team to the NBA finals with a crappy roster. You guys bring up hand checking but fail to realize that Jordan could hand check as well, thus allowing for his defensive prowess. Works both ways.

You really think players of that era could stop LeBron? Based off what? This mental breakdown of trashtalking? LeBron is mentally weak? He's been the most scrutinized player in NBA history and he handled it just fine.

As Barkley said, Michael did everything good. LeBron is just bigger, stronger, and faster. If Michael was unguardable, James would be untouchable. The league today is filled with athleticism that shouldn't even compare to Jordan's era.

Barkley is usually spot on, he thinks LeBron will end up as the GOAT when it's all said and done. Saying MJ played in a tougher era is very misleading.

haha

LBJ6
02-08-2013, 02:09 AM
Yes he is overrated.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:30 AM
You keep bringing up his playoff defeats without Pippen like they mean anything. They were his first three years in the league (finally getting his team to the playoffs after they had been 27 win teams the prior couple years), and he averaged 37/6/7 with 2.5 stls + 1.5 blks. The 2nd two of those years were losses to the legendary late 80's Celtics - many who argue as the greatest team of All Time.

Even if you're the soon to be Goat, you're not beating legends as a young star with little help.

Jordan was quite easily better than Lebron.

Yes, let's keep making excuses. It seems when we make them for LeBron, it doesn't count because he's LeBron. This is a psychological event that occurs to all of us. MJ is remembered as the GOAT because he revolutionized the damn game. He made NBA worldwide. He took Nike to great lengths. Yes, he's the best ever. GOAT? LeBron is a better player than him and when it's all said and done, we can only compare. Rodman, greatest rebounder of all time. Pippen, arguably the greatest defender of his time. He didn't play with scrubs.

LeBron= Cleveland Cavailers 61/21 year 2009-2010
Post LeBron= Cleveland Cavailers 19/63 year 2010-2011 (Worst record in the East, longest losing streak in NBA history)

naps
02-08-2013, 02:39 AM
WoW! So many kids on this site. I bet 95% of these have never seen MJ play. He's the undisputed GOAT. His accolades are unmatched. NOBODY can match his team success and statistical dominance. He's perfectly rated by most and underrated by Kobephiles (since they think Kobe somehow is the second coming of MJ).

Has JB seen this thread? I am sure he's gonna make all these kids STFU with just ONE post.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:42 AM
WoW! So many kids on this site. I bet 95% of these have never seen MJ play. He's the undisputed GOAT. His accolades are unmatched. NOBODY can match his team success and statistical dominance.

Has JB seen this thread? I am sure he's gonna make all these kids STFU with just ONE post.

No one saw Ali either. He's regarded as the greatest ever. We all know he would get knocked out by Tyson easily. What's your point? If we're all kids, you must be an aging 40 year old. That only proves you're being biased because you assume only kids think LeBron is better. Charles Barkley, Phil Jackson, Pippen. They all questioned the legacy of Jordan and think LeBron can and will surpass him.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 02:46 AM
I love that averaging 37/6/7 your first three years in the league while in the playoffs against some of the greatest teams in history is an excuse to this kid. I'm sure LBJ would've wiped the floor v prime Bird, Parish, McHale, etc in those series, right?

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-08-2013, 02:49 AM
hmm i dont think he is overrated, but i think a lot of fans overrate him and place him on a pedestal.

he is touchable.
he is the current GOAT.

and someday, someone will surpass him.

that's all.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:53 AM
I love that averaging 37/6/7 your first three years in the league while in the playoffs against some of the greatest teams in history is an excuse to this kid. I'm sure LBJ would've wiped the floor v prime Bird, Parish, McHale, etc in those series, right?

Once again, pure speculation that LeBron couldn't do it. You're just making a fool out of yourself by placing a player against another era and then saying "He couldn't have done it because the era back then was much tougher." Okay, you're right. No one will ever surpass MJ because "the era back then was much tougher." If that's all you can use as proof, then it's perfectly logical.

I knew jumping into this thread would lead to 50 year old's praising MJ. You guys seem to think the old generation is better at everything. Parish, McHale, Bird. None of them were athletic. They wouldn't be able to handle the athleticism of players today.

Unfortunately there will be no way to to prove someone is better than MJ. You guys are all stuck on your fantasy that MJ will be the greatest ever. Elvis Presley wouldn't sell a single copy of his song in today's generation. It's proof that people will always praise the revolutionists as the greatest ever.

c.c.
02-08-2013, 02:53 AM
The greatest of all time! The Rockets should of drafted him (no disrespect to the Dream)

tredigs
02-08-2013, 02:55 AM
I enjoy how confident bball ignorance and a lack of reading comprehension makes people. Why did I bother clicking on this thread.

Nobody is saying he can't and won't be passed, only that he clearly has not been. And if you for half a second believe Lebron could touch those Celtics with Jordan's Bulls squad at the time, your hole is deeper than I thought. "But those dudez weren't athletic!". Genius.

Ocean, do yourself a favor and lurk a while. I have yet to read a worthwhile post from you in any thread.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-08-2013, 02:57 AM
The greatest of all time! The Rockets should of drafted him (no disrespect to the Dream)

than who would u put as pf in ur sig :(

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 02:57 AM
I hate how confident ignorance and a lack of reading comprehension makes people. Why did I bother clicking on this thread.

Players are far superior today in terms of strength, speed, and skill.

What makes you think Bird or McHale can stop James coming full speed at them? Please, explain how. James would make it look easy.

Can you explain to me why Jordan started winning when Pippen joined? Or how they lost in 94-95 but dominated when Rodman joined? Jordan was fed with great players. Steve Kerr, greatest three point shooting %. Stacked team. He wouldn't amount to 6 rings without Pippen or Rodman. Jordan and LeBron are very alike. Both players who struggled to win rings early in their careers. Only difference? Jordan actually had help sooner than LeBron.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 03:11 AM
What makes you think Lebron and that squad could stop Bird, McHale, Parish, etc is the point. LBJ would get his (just like Jordan DEFINITELY GOT HIS - dude put up 63/5/4 one of the games - no good), and they'd still get trumped with ease. Team game kid, team game.

If athleticism and size alone were the difference maker, Deandre Jordan would be relevant. Skill/leadership/determination/bbiq. That's the makeup of the best. There's a reason why Kosta Koufus starts ahead of Javale McGee. The East of those days was laughably better than it was with Lebron coming into the league, but that is a side note as to why Jordan was the better and more consistent player. And frankly most of it does come down to us comparing the most cutthroat/determined player of all time to a guy who has shown us multiple times that he cannot necessarily be trusted when it all counts. Has he shown up far more often than not? Absolutely . And he's a legend for those times. But he's no GOAT, and it will be a HUGE uphill battle for him to get there after such blatant showings of ghost-mode in big time series, including the Finals.

JJ_JKidd
02-08-2013, 03:15 AM
Okay...before :burn: me hear me out. Most people see Jordan as the "best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be". Now I'm not saying he isn't the best basketball player to play the game, but it seems like people put him on this pedestal and proclaim him to be lightyears better than other All-Time greats(Magic, Russell, Kobe, etc.)

Is it basketball blasphemy to say Jordan is overrated?
Is it even possible for the GOAT to be overrated?

I pity those who havent seen MJ play during his time. Ive started watching him during his first championship because I did not believe that those Bulls were spanking those Magic's Lakers and I followed MJ ever since.

Those who said that MJ never really had competition, thats exactly the point. His skill level during his time was way way way way way above the skill level of his time. That is not his fault. That is GREATNESS. Imagine youre in a class of fifth graders when youre just supposed to be in the class of first-graders.

smith&wesson
02-08-2013, 03:22 AM
I didn't vote because this is a ridiculous question. No numbers or specifics to even back up your argument? At least give me something to refute.

What time is it? Research time.

Haha

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:27 AM
What makes you think Lebron and that squad could stop Bird, McHale, Parish, etc is the point. LBJ would get his (just like Jordan DEFINITELY GOT HIS - dude put up 63/5/4 one of the games - no good), and they'd still get trumped with ease. Team game kid, team game.

If athleticism and size alone were the difference maker, Deandre Jordan would be relevant. Skill/leadership/determination/bbiq. That's the makeup of the best. There's a reason why Kosta Koufus starts ahead of Javale McGee. The East of those days was laughably better than it was with Lebron coming into the league, but that is a side note as to why Jordan was the better and more consistent player. And frankly most of it does come down to us comparing the most cutthroat/determined player of all time to a guy who has shown us multiple times that he cannot necessarily be trusted when it all counts. Has he shown up far more often than not? Absolutely . And he's a legend for those times. But he's no GOAT, and it will be a HUGE uphill battle for him to get there after such blatant showings of ghost-mode in big time series, including the Finals.

You're calling someone a kid when you don't even know them personally. He put up 63/5/4, in 2 OT's and 41 shots. Congrats, he ballhogged like Kobe. Did he win? No, but he "wills" his team? Haha, sounds like some Pokemon junk theory.

Your assumption that LeBron can't handle Jordan's era is pure speculation and of course, biased fans who will always put Jordan as the greatest.

Can you explain to me why LeBron's Cavs went from 61 wins to 19? Or how Jordan's team lost just 2 games after his departure? Let's get back to the facts. Jordan never won without Pippen. Jordan never made his teammates better. Jordan never did it alone. If he was so good, why couldn't he? Because your only answer will be "No one can, but Jordan is the greatest ever and could have." It's simple, Jordan was praised by everyone. Dominique Wilkins called him out and said "It's Jordan's show, what are you gonna do?"

Can you tell me why athletes such as Usain Bolt and Phelps destroyed the records of the past by a longshot? Because athletes are that much better. We can't measure it in terms of basketball because there's no way unless by stats; which will most likely favor James when it's all said and done.

I don't have proof. You don't either. Pure speculation. It's just laughable at how people seriously think Jordan is the GOAT until Earth's life cycle ends. Stop overrating him.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:28 AM
I pity those who havent seen MJ play during his time. Ive started watching him during his first championship because I did not believe that those Bulls were spanking those Magic's Lakers and I followed MJ ever since.

Those who said that MJ never really had competition, thats exactly the point. His skill level during his time was way way way way way above the skill level of his time. That is not his fault. That is GREATNESS. Imagine youre in a class of fifth graders when youre just supposed to be in the class of first-graders.

So you just admitted that Jordan had no competition back then? Thanks for adding to the discussion. Yes, MJ was indeed miles ahead of everyone. It's like how James is miles better than the next best player.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 03:29 AM
Hey Ocean, who's a better player - Chris Paul or Russell Westbrook?

edit:


So you just admitted that Jordan had no competition back then? Thanks for adding to the discussion. Yes, MJ was indeed miles ahead of everyone. It's like how James is miles better than the next best player.

And yet he still wasn't the best player on the court two years ago when it mattered most. Wasn't even 2nd best. There's your difference. Lebron can check out.

I pray someday I'll get to see a player have a career better than Jordan; Some of the most impressive things I've ever seen in competition of any sport. Probably the most.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:36 AM
Hey Ocean, who's a better player - Chris Paul or Russell Westbrook?

You assume no one in the NBA has the heart and soul to care about winning. Typical fan of Jordan. "Kobe wouldn't handle the challenge."
"LeBron would freeze and the trash talk will get him to piss his pants."

Chris Paul is obviously better. I'm just alluding to the fact that players are much more athletic and can jump higher, faster, and stronger than back then. Is that true or false?

Mentally, yes, players today are distracted easily. Why? Because money has become the hunger of their game. Does that mean NBA players today are going to stand down and let the players of Jordan's era bully them? Haha, nice theory.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 03:44 AM
You assume no one in the NBA has the heart and soul to care about winning. Typical fan of Jordan. "Kobe wouldn't handle the challenge."
"LeBron would freeze and the trash talk will get him to piss his pants."

Chris Paul is obviously better. I'm just alluding to the fact that players are much more athletic and can jump higher, faster, and stronger than back then. Is that true or false?

Mentally, yes, players today are distracted easily. Why? Because money has become the hunger of their game. Does that mean NBA players today are going to stand down and let the players of Jordan's era bully them? Haha, nice theory.

Why are you jumping to false conclusions and quoting things that nobody here said?

Yes, you are alluding to the fact that players now are more athletic as a whole. I'm alluding to the fact that this is a meaningless statement. If it wasn't then an absolutely elite talent + freak athlete in Westbrook should be better than Cp3. Why does Steph Curry beast so hard? Is it his freak speed, size and athleticism? Duncan's still better than just about every big we have in the league. Why's that?

And then you finish with some random excuse about money (as if players in that era weren't millionaires seeking contracts as well) and make another jump to a false conclusion about being bullied. "Bullying" would be the least of Lebron's worries going up against the "bad boy" Pistons, Celtics, Dreams' Rockets, etc.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:54 AM
Why are you jumping to false conclusions and quoting things that nobody here said?

Yes, you are alluding to the fact that players now are more athletic as a whole. I'm alluding to the fact that this is a meaningless statement. If it wasn't then an absolutely elite talent + freak athlete in Westbrook should be better than Cp3. Why does Steph Curry beast so hard? Is it his freak speed, size and athleticism? Duncan's still better than just about every big we have in the league. Why's that?

And then you finish with some random excuse about money (as if players in that era weren't millionaires seeking contracts as well) and make another jump to a false conclusion about being bullied. "Bullying" would be the least of Lebron's worries going up against the "bad boy" Pistons, Celtics, Dreams' Rockets, etc.

Those are typical statements that biased fans as yourself would use.

Btw, it's here, not hear.

When did I say athleticism makes a player the best? Answer my question, is it true that a player who is quicker, stronger, and more athletic has a better chance than a player who's skillset is the same but is slower, weaker, and less athletic?

The reason I used money was because the generation of today are easily distracted by their surroundings. NBA players of today just want to make their paycheck and party as soon as the season is over. Players back then were less distracted. And no, they weren't paid 1/10th of what NBA players are being paid today - even adjusting inflation.

NBA today is far more popular than NBA of that era. Jordan revolutionized that era. He was their first star, their first idol, their first huge draw.

Fundamentals has a lot to do with it, yes. But if Tim Duncan was faster, stronger, and more athletic, he would be much better. Once again, are you going to avoid this fact because it discourages your opinion?

Guppyfighter
02-08-2013, 03:58 AM
Those are typical statements that biased fans as yourself would use.

Btw, it's here, not hear.

When did I say athleticism makes a player the best? Answer my question, is it true that a player who is quicker, stronger, and more athletic has a better chance than a player who's skillset is the same but is slower, weaker, and less athletic?

The reason I used money was because the generation of today are easily distracted by their surroundings. NBA players of today just want to make their paycheck and party as soon as the season is over. Players back then were less distracted. And no, they weren't paid 1/10th of what NBA players are being paid today - even adjusting inflation.

NBA today is far more popular than NBA of that era. Jordan revolutionized that era. He was their first star, their first idol, their first huge draw.

Fundamentals has a lot to do with it, yes. But if Tim Duncan was faster, stronger, and more athletic, he would be much better. Once again, are you going to avoid this fact because it discourages your opinion?


If you payed attention to the league in years past, you know that's not true. They did just as much stupid **** and got into just as much trouble.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 03:59 AM
Watch this, understand why you're an idiot on too many levels to count. Go to bed. Thank me later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtykEHPRO1Q

As to the OP's question, it's all relative. If you think Jordan can't be touched, you're overrating him. He had flaws like anyone else, and was certainly not perfect. Some day some young player will pass him. If you think anybody playing now is > Jordan, then you clearly underrate him and likely never saw him play.

Ultimately, he was and still is the best candidate for GOAT. /thread.

Guppyfighter
02-08-2013, 04:01 AM
Ocean, you are right that players who rely more on athleticism have "higher" ceilings, but you are ignoring the fact they decline much faster. Guys like Nikola Pecovich, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Stephen Curry will last forever. Guys like Amare, Josh Smith will not last as long.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 04:05 AM
Watch this, understand why you're an idiot on too many levels to count. Go to bed. Thank me later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtykEHPRO1Q

As to the OP's question, it's all relative. If you think Jordan can't be touched, you're overrating him. He had flaws like anyone else, and was certainly not perfect. Some day some young player will pass him. If you think anybody playing now is > Jordan, then you clearly underrate him and likely never saw him play.

Ultimately, he was and still is the best candidate for GOAT. /thread.

Typical biased fan as I stated before. Providing a video that brainwashed him into thinking players back then were much better. Do you not think for yourself?

Edit your post because you can't find ways to refute my findings? Why have you yet to answer any of my questions? Because they are negative towards your argument.

The question isn't "Is MJ the GOAT?" It's if he's overrated or not. Learn to read and distinguish the difference. No one said he isn't the best.

More Jordan fans continue backing Jordan up. It's no surprise. 20 years from now, people will say LeBron is the best. It's a generation type thing. I remember when Jordan started out, he was going through the say crap LeBron was.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 04:16 AM
Ocean, you waited until your 15th post to actually state the question that once again is entirely meaningless. "Given the exact same skill set is athleticism better"? Do they have the same BBIQ and mental toughness? If so, of course. Now in what world is this in any way relevant to the OP's question or anything I've mentioned? You are so out of sorts with what point you're looking to make it is embarrassing. The video highlights the fact that it was Bird and Magic that did the revitalizing of the NBA, not MJ. I realize that all of this goes over your head, and you have some glorified image of me as a die hard Chi fan with MJ posters plastered on my wall. I assure you, have no idea how old I am or who my favorite players are. You have no idea about much, really.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 05:11 AM
Yes, let's keep making excuses. It seems when we make them for LeBron, it doesn't count because he's LeBron. This is a psychological event that occurs to all of us. MJ is remembered as the GOAT because he revolutionized the damn game. He made NBA worldwide. He took Nike to great lengths. Yes, he's the best ever. GOAT? LeBron is a better player than him and when it's all said and done, we can only compare. Rodman, greatest rebounder of all time. Pippen, arguably the greatest defender of his time. He didn't play with scrubs.

LeBron= Cleveland Cavailers 61/21 year 2009-2010
Post LeBron= Cleveland Cavailers 19/63 year 2010-2011 (Worst record in the East, longest losing streak in NBA history)

Here are the two options.

You either have zero understanding of the game

Or, you are 20, and never watched Jordan.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 05:12 AM
The greatest of all time! The Rockets should of drafted him (no disrespect to the Dream)

meh, I won't kill the Rox for taking Hakeem, now will I kill the Blazers for taking Sampson, seeing as they took Clyde the draft prior.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 05:19 AM
Watch this, understand why you're an idiot on too many levels to count. Go to bed. Thank me later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtykEHPRO1Q

As to the OP's question, it's all relative. If you think Jordan can't be touched, you're overrating him. He had flaws like anyone else, and was certainly not perfect. Some day some young player will pass him. If you think anybody playing now is > Jordan, then you clearly underrate him and likely never saw him play.

Ultimately, he was and still is the best candidate for GOAT. /thread.

that video made me emotional. and reminded me why I started watching this game.

magikmc
02-08-2013, 05:34 AM
ill say hes overrated in this sense: the aura surrounding MJ is that it is impossible to become greater than MJ. it IS most definately possible. lebron COULD but people write him off although hes only 28.

the greats in other sports, like ruth, arent considered untouchable like MJ.

LeBron and MJ were the same age when they won their first title. Just sayin'

b-ballistic
02-08-2013, 06:07 AM
:no:

3ballbomber
02-08-2013, 06:30 AM
I'm fairly certain not many who saw Jordan play in his days would ever have anything negative to say about him as a basketball player, Period!

metsfan4ever
02-08-2013, 06:48 AM
don't even know where to begin with this, smh

magikmc
02-08-2013, 07:10 AM
Watch this, understand why you're an idiot on too many levels to count. Go to bed. Thank me later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtykEHPRO1Q

As to the OP's question, it's all relative. If you think Jordan can't be touched, you're overrating him. He had flaws like anyone else, and was certainly not perfect. Some day some young player will pass him. If you think anybody playing now is > Jordan, then you clearly underrate him and likely never saw him play.

Ultimately, he was and still is the best candidate for GOAT. /thread.

Thanks for posting this. Magic and Bird were before my time, and I've never REALLY taken the time to know their stories. Great video.

Hellcrooner
02-08-2013, 08:05 AM
overhyped and overrated ad nauseam.

hail2skins4life
02-08-2013, 08:50 AM
I'm not old enough to have seen him play. But I can't imagine he's not at least a little overrated. I mean people act like he was perfect out their on the court. People say he's on a different level then anyone has ever been on, and Kobe isn't even close and all that.

Well how much better can he really be? I mean its not like his defense could have been that much better than Kobe's. I know Kobe has a better jump shot and is the best ever at making those ridiculously tough shots. Jordan was better at getting a quality shot off and was better at doing other things like passing and having an all around game.

But Kobe has showed us that he isn't just a scorer. He can play a great all around game every game if he wants. He's close to Lebron's level on that when he tries. People make out MJ to be flawless. He has to be overrated

I Rock Shaqs
02-08-2013, 09:37 AM
A lot of people are going to say no even know they have never seen him play just because their friends say so, or because that's the average b ball fan would say, kind of like how they would always boo T mac in toronto even know he did nothing wrong, just because the person next to them thought that way.

Pierzynski4Prez
02-08-2013, 10:09 AM
This thread just reeks of stupidity.


Here are the two options.

You either have zero understanding of the game

Or, you are 20, and never watched Jordan.

I'm going to go with option 2, except its probably more like 14 instead of 20.

DallasTrilla23
02-08-2013, 10:13 AM
He was so great that he seems overrated if you didn't see him when he was winning all the titles. The way Jordan could take over games was crazy, he could score at will.

D-Leethal
02-08-2013, 10:20 AM
I think the guy who posted that MJ is treated as untouchable as the #1 player of all time was pretty spot on. MJ's legacy is NOT overrated, but the notion he will forever hold that legacy as the GOAT with no one coming close makes a case for it.

DJHUFF2000
02-08-2013, 10:29 AM
No disrespect intended here but,that 91'Laker team did not have Cap or Michael Cooper on them.
I pity those who havent seen MJ play during his time. Ive started watching him during his first championship because I did not believe that those Bulls were spanking those Magic's Lakers and I followed MJ ever since.

Those who said that MJ never really had competition, thats exactly the point. His skill level during his time was way way way way way above the skill level of his time. That is not his fault. That is GREATNESS. Imagine youre in a class of fifth graders when youre just supposed to be in the class of first-graders.

Hellcrooner
02-08-2013, 11:42 AM
No disrespect intended here but,that 91'Laker team did not have Cap or Michael Cooper on them.

Not to mention Magic was already declining and the team had the corpses of Worhty, thompson, scott, teagle, Drew out there, Worhty was injured too.
Then some UNREADY/ PLAYOFF UNTESTED youngsters in divac and campbell

JLynn943
02-08-2013, 11:47 AM
I picked that he's overrated only because there seems to be this idea that he'll never be surpassed. He isn't so far ahead of everyone that it's infeasible someone surpasses him.

DaBUU
02-08-2013, 12:09 PM
I was wrong, it can get worse in the nba forum.

CityofTreez
02-08-2013, 12:17 PM
Wow, Jordan (IMO) played in the best era, and dominated.

The only player who I would maybe argue that was better than him is Magic.

BK-TY
02-08-2013, 12:24 PM
First of all you cannot compare players of different eras. NO ONE can say with any certainty whether or not Jordan would dominate against players like KD, Lebron, Melo, Kobe, Bernard, Gervin, Big O, Wilt, or any other dominant player from a different era. BUT the dominance that Jordan displayed when he was at his prime is unmatched by any player since Wilt.

6 and 0 in Finals appearances and there was NEVER a question who the best player in the league was from '86 to '99. His list of career awards in the NBA alone is longer than a Russell Crowe movie and we won't even BEGIN to talk about how he globalized the game. I HATED him when he played because of how he CONSTANTLY $#!tted on my Knicks but bottom line... NO ONE has done more FOR or IN the NBA than MJ.

I'm SURE there will come another player who can and will dominate the league in a fashion similar to how Mike did. IMO Lebron could be that guy right now but I don't think anyone will ever match MJ's list of accomplishments on AND off the court as it relates to basketball.

Overrated? Really? Come on son.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-08-2013, 12:24 PM
People think he's some god that will never be passed. Um, get over yourself.

flea
02-08-2013, 12:30 PM
Jordan was so good that he ruined the NBA.

C_Mund
02-08-2013, 12:48 PM
We must have had a thread about literally every single thing basketball related if it's come to this.

Game_Over
02-08-2013, 12:55 PM
Only little kids that haven't seen him play with the Bulls would think he is over rated!!

metsfan4ever
02-08-2013, 01:07 PM
Closed this **** please... homies must just hit puberty asking dumb *** questions like this. Look at his accomplishments

JWO35
02-08-2013, 01:10 PM
People think he's some god that will never be passed. Um, get over yourself.

This is the main reason I made this thread...I heard people say countless times(here & in the real world) that no one will ever be better than MJ(usually followed by why "player X" is not even close). Like one guy posted, this pedestal Jordan is placed on is not to be found in the MLB or NFL.

I'm not going to lie either, I barely remember Jordan playing(I'm sure some who voted No did as well or haven't seen him at all)...but even if I did, I doubt it would change my mind.

Once again, I believe he is currently the best player to ever play... But I also believe that there will be someone to surpass him and some current players have a chance to do it as well.

C_Mund
02-08-2013, 01:38 PM
This is the main reason I made this thread...I heard people say countless times(here & in the real world) that no one will ever be better than MJ(usually followed by why "player X" is not even close). Like one guy posted, this pedestal Jordan is placed on is not to be found in the MLB or NFL.

I'm not going to lie either, I barely remember Jordan playing(I'm sure some who voted No did as well or haven't seen him at all)...but even if I did, I doubt it would change my mind.

Once again, I believe he is currently the best player to ever play... But I also believe that there will be someone to surpass him and some current players have a chance to do it as well.

....to think that there's no chance he'll ever be equaled or surpassed is absurd, but that doesn't mean he's overrated. Did the richest person in history have more money than anybody who's ever lived? Obviously. Could somebody, at some point, obtain more wealth than he? Very possibly. In my opinion the same applies to Jordan. He was without a doubt the richest person in terms of basketball, there's no way to over or understate that.

Pfeifer
02-08-2013, 01:39 PM
This is the main reason I made this thread...I heard people say countless times(here & in the real world) that no one will ever be better than MJ(usually followed by why "player X" is not even close). Like one guy posted, this pedestal Jordan is placed on is not to be found in the MLB or NFL.

I'm not going to lie either, I barely remember Jordan playing(I'm sure some who voted No did as well or haven't seen him at all)...but even if I did, I doubt it would change my mind.

Once again, I believe he is currently the best player to ever play... But I also believe that there will be someone to surpass him and some current players have a chance to do it as well.

I disagree. Guys like Jordan and Gretzky will never be surpassed, not because guys aren't getting more talented but because they were so ahead of their times. Jordan was just flat out better than everyone else and he did it when it mattered most.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-08-2013, 01:43 PM
Jordan isn't overrated. But there's a lot of people who don't rate him properly.

Bullsfan22
02-08-2013, 01:46 PM
Everything fell into place for MJ to be honest. nobody will ever have the chance to impact the game like MJ so it's tough to say someone else will be considered the greatest. I believe someone will be as good if not better than him statistically but then people will look at the impact factor and shy away from calling him the greatest.

6 titles 6 finals MVP's nobody will ever top his unblemished record and the mixture outlandish statistics. Will a better player come along? Certainly((that's what makes him overrated). But how exactly will his impact on the game of basketball be topped? Players from all over the world are in the NBA because they "wanted to be like Mike" A German Kid name Dirk started playing basketball in part because he fell in love with the game watching the Dream Team and MJ.

Like someone said you can be the GOAT and be overrated.

Stinkyoutsider
02-08-2013, 01:50 PM
Jordan is the Muhammad Ali of basketball. This is why we all think there won't be anyone who eclipses him.

Ali is the greatest boxer of all time because of his total impact on the sport. Of course there's boxers who have been more talented than Ali, but he'll still be the greatest.

Jordan is the same way. There have been and probably will be players who overall have more talent than Jordan but his effect on the game as a whole won't be eclipsed imo. It's not his stats because there will be a guy who passes him soon but what he's done for the game, his impact, and of course the memories he's given us through is dominant performances and winning will last far beyond any stat or record he has.

With him being as great a player as he was, every player needs at least another player on the same level to win titles. Every player I remember has needed this. Jordan couldn't do it on his own but that doesn't make him any less of a player. Magic had Kareem, Larry had Kevin, Duncan had David Robinson and later Tony Parker, Kobe had Shaq, Thomas had Dumars, and I could go on and on.

tdg823
02-08-2013, 01:51 PM
Ocean Spray you have said several things throughout this that are just so ..... utterly... clueless. I'm sorry, I hate to put you down unprovoked, but you just have no credibilty. I will never look at a post from you in the same way

Raps08-09 Champ
02-08-2013, 01:54 PM
Everything fell into place for MJ to be honest. nobody will ever have the chance to impact the game like MJ so it's tough to say someone else will be considered the greatest. I believe someone will be as good if not better than him statistically but then people will look at the impact factor and shy away from calling him the greatest.

I agree. There's more than enough players that are very close to him in terms of talent and capabilities. Of course Jordan gets a nod for making it happen while others have not (some because of situation, some because they just didn't get it done). But that doesn't mean he's untouchable like a lot make him out to be.


6 titles 6 finals MVP's nobody will ever top his unblemished record and the mixture outlandish statistics. Will a better player come along? Certainly((that's what makes him overrated). But how exactly will his impact on the game of basketball be topped? Players from all over the world are in the NBA because they "wanted to be like Mike" A German Kid name Dirk started playing basketball in part because he fell in love with the game watching the Dream Team and MJ.

Like someone said you can be the GOAT and be overrated.

This.

When some of you act like he's some sort of invisible SOB, that's how you overrate him. Look at JB, he's prime example.

sp1derm00
02-08-2013, 02:01 PM
i dont know if im crazy but i honestly believe that kobe bryant is overrated.

Kobe is rated just perfectly in most cases. He's definitely Top 10, and at the very best, borderline Top 5 if that. Any higher, and he's overrated.

If you think about how hard it is to repeat, how few teams have done it in the history of the NBA, and then realize that Kobe has done it not once, but twice... with two completely different team compositions.

His second team, with Pau, wasn't exactly stacked either. True, he did have LO and Bynum, but Bynum in the championship runs was playing hurt and didn't contribute as much as most people think he did. Lebron has Wade, and Bosh and now has Allen and it remains to be seen whether or not he can repeat with a squad like that.

Kobe, as much as has his flaws, he's a proven winner. As proven as you can possibly be... he's done it with two different teams and he's done it as both the first and second options. He might not be amongst the most dominant players ever, but he's up there.

Money_23
02-08-2013, 02:06 PM
he's overrated if you say something like: "if you put him on the current Wizards, then they'll win the finals."

Schulte212
02-08-2013, 02:08 PM
YES, Jordan is overrated! That is not to say that he isn't the great of all time--I think he is. However, I do not think the difference between Jordan's greatness and some other all time greats is all that huge. People idolize Jordan to an extent that almost turns him into a "myth" of sorts.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-08-2013, 02:09 PM
he's overrated if you say something like: "if you put him on the current Wizards, then they'll win the finals."

You don't even have to go that far.

He's overrated when people say "He's untouchable." Which I've seen more than enough people do.

sp1derm00
02-08-2013, 02:10 PM
MJ is not overrated at all.

In fact, I believe he's underrated at times on this forum. People see Lebron's stats and they think that he's in the realm of Jordan simply because of his statistical dominance. No.

Jordan was great statistically, but that's only a part of what made him great. His attitude towards a game, his mentality, his trash talking and ability to get into opponent's heads. His ability to raise his level of play when it was most important. His ability to play off the ball and his dedication to the game to learn to do so when he had a teammate like Pippen to share his responsibilities. Those things all factor into what made him great and what made him a winner, not just his ability to put up some of the most dominant stats ever.

Cub_StuckinSTL
02-08-2013, 02:10 PM
So many people didn't get to see the greatness that was Jordan. I feel bad for those people

petersmagic12
02-08-2013, 02:16 PM
Jordan is the greatest right now. By the time it is all said and done, I think Lebron will surpass him. Not based on rings, but based on PER and stats. (Rings are all what people care about, but I think Lebron will have better stats, and he has the tools to surpass MJ, but he is not better than MJ.) Kobrick Bryant is the most overrated player of all time though. He is not even the greatest Laker of all time.

Lebron may surpass MJ in stats eventually however I do not think Lebron will never have Jordans Killer instinct. Lebron has shown shades of greatness, (overtime win in Detroit) and other games here and there. Jordan however when the team needed him to make a shot he made it repeatedly. Idk how many game winners Jordan has had but I can think of 4 without even taking a second thought.I am sure there is a ton more as well. Jordan is quite possibly the most clutch player in the game and thats one of the things that seperates his game from the other greats. Sure he had a great supporting cast, but so did many other great players hakeem and sam cassell and Clyde drexler. malone had stockton hornacek and company. You cannot knock jordan because Pippen steve kerr and others were on his team. He made those players great as well. MJ Has no equal right now for those reasons. Lebron right now has not shown me that killer instinct will he ever develope it well that remains to be seen.

Cub_StuckinSTL
02-08-2013, 02:26 PM
all that really needs to be said is Flu game

DJHUFF2000
02-08-2013, 02:55 PM
pweb.netcom.com/~bjalas/basketball/bulls/duhbulls.htm

google this link,The 1995-96 Chicago Bulls:Great but not the best team ever.

jerellh528
02-08-2013, 03:12 PM
all that really needs to be said is Flu game

I thought everyone knew that was a hangover not the flu.

metsfan4ever
02-08-2013, 03:13 PM
psd has become so over saturated with overrated that homies are actually starting to question true GOATs. This ain't the music section bruh. MJ actually is one of the greatest of all time.

AIRMAR72
02-08-2013, 03:31 PM
i dont know if im crazy but i honestly believe that kobe bryant is overrated.

Tobe I meant kobe IS overrated along with the person who started this bogus thread

AIRMAR72
02-08-2013, 03:39 PM
Lebron may surpass MJ in stats eventually however I do not think Lebron will never have Jordans Killer instinct. Lebron has shown shades of greatness, (overtime win in Detroit) and other games here and there. Jordan however when the team needed him to make a shot he made it repeatedly. Idk how many game winners Jordan has had but I can think of 4 without even taking a second thought.I am sure there is a ton more as well. Jordan is quite possibly the most clutch player in the game and thats one of the things that seperates his game from the other greats. Sure he had a great supporting cast, but so did many other great players hakeem and sam cassell and Clyde drexler. malone had stockton hornacek and company. You cannot knock jordan because Pippen steve kerr and others were on his team. He made those players great as well. MJ Has no equal right now for those reasons. Lebron right now has not shown me that killer instinct will he ever develope it well that remains to be seen. scottie pippen is a better player compare to bron but bron stats are better my opinion

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 03:41 PM
"Jordan played with a flu." Just a typical lie the NBA used instead of "Jordan played with a hangover." NBA didn't want Jordan to have a negative influence by the media and so they did everything to cover it up. Funny how Jordan nor Jackson publicly corrected it by saying it was a hangover.

DaBUU
02-08-2013, 03:46 PM
Jordan isn't overrated. But there's a lot of people who don't rate him properly.

He's rated as the greatest player of all time, and rightfully so. How is he not rated properly?

Raps08-09 Champ
02-08-2013, 03:52 PM
He's rated as the greatest player of all time, and rightfully so. How is he not rated properly?

Him being GOAT is correct. People rating him to be some sort of basketball god who's invincible and miles ahead of the rest of the basketball world (which a lot of people do) is a false representation of Jordan.

He's an amazing player, but let's not make him bigger than what he actually is.

RowBTrice
02-08-2013, 03:58 PM
Okay...before :burn: me hear me out. Most people see Jordan as the "best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be". Now I'm not saying he isn't the best basketball player to play the game, but it seems like people put him on this pedestal and proclaim him to be lightyears better than other All-Time greats(Magic, Russell, Kobe, etc.)

Is it basketball blasphemy to say Jordan is overrated?
Is it even possible for the GOAT to be overrated?


actually, that is Bret "The Hitman" Hart.

KingstonHawke
02-08-2013, 04:05 PM
Jordan is VERY over rated. But you have to be mindful of where he is rated for that to make sense. Jordan was a phenom, arguably the best ever. But people talk about him like he had no flaws. He wasn't EVER the best defender on his team, and that gives his numbers a bump across the board. He didn't make ANY of his teammates better. Name one teammate that wasn't the same before or after he played with MJ. Kerr, Paxson, etc were always great shooters. You stick the, next to Kobe and they are gunner make shots. Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc were all beast without Jordan. ****, Jordan wasn't even a good guy. He punched two teammates in the face for no reason. Bullied the **** out of Kwame, quit on his team (and they balled out without him) and then he ruined their playoff chase by coming back in like April. Add in that he wasn't a good passer, or 3pt shooter (earlier) in his career and I could easily take Lebron over him if I was starting a team.

Also, keep in mind that it was easier to stack teams back then. Ad that even though no one likes to admit it, the league was a lot "whiter" back in the day. Now everyone is more athletic. How many American white guys are considered a great wing defender the way Eloh was?

I'm a fan of good players. But seriously, Jordan is so over rated it makes me sick. People act like Shaq shouldn't even be in the same conversation as him. Even though he was unguardable for a period of time.

farren.louis
02-08-2013, 04:17 PM
Jordan is VERY over rated. But you have to be mindful of where he is rated for that to make sense. Jordan was a phenom, arguably the best ever. But people talk about him like he had no flaws. He wasn't EVER the best defender on his team, and that gives his numbers a bump across the board. He didn't make ANY of his teammates better. Name one teammate that wasn't the same before or after he played with MJ. Kerr, Paxson, etc were always great shooters. You stick the, next to Kobe and they are gunner make shots. Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc were all beast without Jordan. ****, Jordan wasn't even a good guy. He punched two teammates in the face for no reason. Bullied the **** out of Kwame, quit on his team (and they balled out without him) and then he ruined their playoff chase by coming back in like April. Add in that he wasn't a good passer, or 3pt shooter (earlier) in his career and I could easily take Lebron over him if I was starting a team.

Also, keep in mind that it was easier to stack teams back then. Ad that even though no one likes to admit it, the league was a lot "whiter" back in the day. Now everyone is more athletic. How many American white guys are considered a great wing defender the way Eloh was?

I'm a fan of good players. But seriously, Jordan is so over rated it makes me sick. People act like Shaq shouldn't even be in the same conversation as him. Even though he was unguardable for a period of time.

You must be a Jazz Fan

farren.louis
02-08-2013, 04:19 PM
And why are people mentioning steve kerr?

ThuglifeJ
02-08-2013, 04:26 PM
For those saying he is the greatest ever, sure. How great? 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen.
Like I mentioned on my other post, people always favor the old time players. MJ revolutionized basketball like Joe Montana revolutionized football. Babe Ruth, they call him the greatest ever... Elvis Presley, best ever. The point is people are all homesick and will always say back then was better, etc. Example, swimming and track. These are sports that we can truly determine who is better because of the time being recorded. They said Mark Spitz was the greatest ever.. Phelps smashed it like it was cake. Usain Bolt broke every record possible..
Very overrated. He's the best ever, no doubt. But there are certain players who would've been that "MJ" if they reversed eras. If Kobe played in that era instead of Jordan, people are going to say Kobe is the best because he played in a tougher era. It's all psychologically inside us that creates this effect.

I don't think I've ever agreed with someones post more than this.
I agree completely with this and a point I always try to explain but can't.

The older I get the more I realized how psychological it is, how we view players/teams/eras. It's true what you say, yet depressing if you face that reality that we are all pretty wrong. Everyone get's a little homesick, it's just natural.

I also agree on that only sports you can truly determine who's better is something like Swimming where it is timed records.
That's why I hate how how, for example, everyone can say "Kobe is light-years better than Tmac, Iverson, Carter were, even back then! (which they can now throw out), just look at his rings!" Especially younger fans. I agree Kobe has been way more successful/better longevity, but I was literally glued to the TV, stats, articles in early 2000. There was no clear answer who was better than who they were all phenominal scorers in their own sense. I truly believed if AI/Mac/VC got the oppurtunity to start their career in LA rather their teams, they would have been just as what we consider successfull in the NBA. I watched Kobe when Shaq left that season, he played and looked exactly like Carter and McGrady out there when he didnt have help..Like you say, they gave up their careers. Well would Kobe still have his confidence and eagerness to play if he went 12 seasons on losing teams and the media was calling him black mamba, killer instinct? Having a good oppurtnity like Pierce, Kobe did leads to more confidence and assurance of what you are doing.. Those two didn't do anything in the post-season without a cast. What makes them any different from Carter/Tmac/AI. Especially AI who got to the finals..

That's just one example, and anyone younger won't understand/believe any of that. I'm sure that people's cases about Bird/Magic/Barkley/Pippen or whomever are simliar (in comparison to Jordan). Jordan, while deservingly named the GOAT of basketball due to his perfect basketball legacy, he was also deemed perfect situations (Phil Jackson, Big market, Pippen willing to take 2nd role, good cast). Leading to more confidence and more endorsements and more hype.

NYtilIdie
02-08-2013, 04:31 PM
Okay...before :burn: me hear me out. Most people see Jordan as the "best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be". Now I'm not saying he isn't the best basketball player to play the game, but it seems like people put him on this pedestal and proclaim him to be lightyears better than other All-Time greats(Magic, Russell, Kobe, etc.)

Is it basketball blasphemy to say Jordan is overrated?
Is it even possible for the GOAT to be overrated?
Kill yourself.

ThuglifeJ
02-08-2013, 04:42 PM
Kill yourself.

a good example of having him a little overrated

Nats_vcu-Okc35
02-08-2013, 05:29 PM
6 times to the finals, with 6 rings. To me the greatest players come up big in the greatest pressure situations. Whether others find this true or not is their own opinion. For me, to get there and win EVERY time you do, with 2 prime years taken playing baseball, that's the kind of GOAT I want. The man stepped back on the floor from 2 years away and started winning rings again!

1-10 in the playoffs? Oh you mean when they were losing to two of the most dominant teams EVER? They lost to the 86 and 87 celtics (86 is widely considered one of the GOATS as far as teams go). Lost to the bad boy pistons twice, only one of the greatest defensive teams EVER. OHhh do you mean his rookie year when he dragged that team to the playoffs then lost to the bucks? Out of that group 3 rings and 5 finals appearance.

How about that supportin cast when he went to play baseball? They won a championship, right, or at least made the finals? Only way they justify being as good without him, is with another ring without him. Regular season wins do not equal championship rings. I would take Lebrons supporting cast in Miami, or Kobe's championship teams, or the 80s bird/magic celtics/laker champ squads over any of Jordan's bulls. 100% of the time.

I'm not gonna even get into hand checking.

For me, 1-10
Jordan
Russell (won a ring as a player coach often overlooked)
Kobe (will pass Russell with another ring to me)
LeBron (CAN pass Kobe and Russell with some more jewelry)
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Chamberlain

If you believe he's overrated that's fine, to me he's GOAT and won't be passed by Kobe, Lebron, or Durant (if he enters the discussion in the coming years). To me, based on the fact that Kobe, durant and Lebron have lost in the finals puts them on a level below Jordan to me. If that makes me a hater so be it. (I still love watching all of them play and have never once called any of them overrated, before you get your panties in a bunch.)

TyrionLannister
02-08-2013, 05:30 PM
Legitimately surprised JB hasn't made an appearance yet.

It depends on how you define "overrated". I think he is clearly the GOAT as of right now, but it's possible that someone could pass him. If someone doesn't believe anyone can pass him, does that make him "overrated"? Depends on your sense of the word.

A few arguments I'd like to refute:

On the 1-10 without Pippen stats, first off I don't know where this stat is coming from nor what context it is being used in (not saying it's not true but I have no details on what's exactly being measured here, are we talking playoff series, championship runs, etc.?), but Pippen doesn't (and didn't) win anything either without Jordan. Saying "oh well if this guy wasn't there this clearly doesn't happen". It can be applied to all great players, because they all need to have SOMETHING of substance around them before they even come close to succeeding. The 80s Lakers and Celtics had casts around their stars that make the 90s Bulls look pretty uninspiring in comparison (I watched the 96 Bulls and think the 86 Celtics are the best team ever, as the 96 Bulls had ton of expansion-weak teams to beat up on). The 60s Celtics had Hall of Fame-caliber players from top to bottom. The majority of 00s championship teams all had multiple-superstar teams save for the Pistons who had five above-average players. Stars have major impact, but it's still a team game.

Comparing eras is also stupid. As time passes, athletic ability collectively improves. Bill Russell is regarded as one of the greatest ever even though if he was in the modern era, he MIGHT be a starter. Dwyane Wade could probably average a triple-double in the 60s. Should that take away from Oscar Robertson? No! IMO, one should only measure an athlete's level against his competition. LeBron's killing it right now, but who's to say in 50 years HE'll be considered obsolete?

I consider Jordan the GOAT because no other player dominated in so many facets of the game (while at the same time transcending the sport) for such a long period. For a decade-long period, Jordan was the best offensive player and a top-5 defensive player. Won 6 championships, arguably could've won 3 more (94, 95, and 99) if he didn't retire, and has a slew of other accolades to his name, and should have more because voters were tired of seeing him win. He never had a truly exploitable weakness (like Shaq with his free-throw shooting) nor genuinely weak competition (like the Eastern Conference was in the mid-2000s). And his cast, while great, was not anywhere near the level of other dynasty teams. Pippen, while great, was never on the level of say, Kareem, nor did he ever outperform Jordan in the regular season, playoffs, or finals. Rodman, Kerr, etc. were fantastic role-players but were largely one-dimensional compared to Worthy, Parish, etc.

Can he be surpassed? Certainly. IMO LeBron has a chance to, and that's why we're watching his career continue. Everyone's definition of the GOAT is different, and maybe it is unfair that "older" players are given too much or too little respect. But it all depends on your definition.

KingstonHawke
02-08-2013, 06:05 PM
We really do need to agree on some definitions....

Like are we saying best heads up, or best in the context of when they played?
Are we counting what MJ off the court for the sport or just on it?
Do you have to win championships to be in the conversation?

Cause if we're staying in context of when they played how the heck does MJ even get in the conversation next to a guy like Wilt? But if we're gonna knock Wilt for when he played than you also have to admit that Kobe and Lebron play in a more evolved era. With MJ people seem to want it both ways.

KingstonHawke
02-08-2013, 06:05 PM
Double

JWO35
02-08-2013, 06:23 PM
a good example of having him a little overrated

I think he makes an intelligent point that I'm sure he spent a good amount of his brain knowledge to formulate that statement...

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 06:30 PM
I don't think I've ever agreed with someones post more than this.
I agree completely with this and a point I always try to explain but can't.

The older I get the more I realized how psychological it is, how we view players/teams/eras. It's true what you say, yet depressing if you face that reality that we are all pretty wrong. Everyone get's a little homesick, it's just natural.

I also agree on that only sports you can truly determine who's better is something like Swimming where it is timed records.
That's why I hate how how, for example, everyone can say "Kobe is light-years better than Tmac, Iverson, Carter were, even back then! (which they can now throw out), just look at his rings!" Especially younger fans. I agree Kobe has been way more successful/better longevity, but I was literally glued to the TV, stats, articles in early 2000. There was no clear answer who was better than who they were all phenominal scorers in their own sense. I truly believed if AI/Mac/VC got the oppurtunity to start their career in LA rather their teams, they would have been just as what we consider successfull in the NBA. I watched Kobe when Shaq left that season, he played and looked exactly like Carter and McGrady out there when he didnt have help..Like you say, they gave up their careers. Well would Kobe still have his confidence and eagerness to play if he went 12 seasons on losing teams and the media was calling him black mamba, killer instinct? Having a good oppurtnity like Pierce, Kobe did leads to more confidence and assurance of what you are doing.. Those two didn't do anything in the post-season without a cast. What makes them any different from Carter/Tmac/AI. Especially AI who got to the finals..

That's just one example, and anyone younger won't understand/believe any of that. I'm sure that people's cases about Bird/Magic/Barkley/Pippen or whomever are simliar (in comparison to Jordan). Jordan, while deservingly named the GOAT of basketball due to his perfect basketball legacy, he was also deemed perfect situations (Phil Jackson, Big market, Pippen willing to take 2nd role, good cast). Leading to more confidence and more endorsements and more hype.

Believe me, you're one of very few who do. When people can actually think within their minds, they'll understand as well. They are so closed minded that they'll say MJ is the greatest at every little aspect of the game. He wasn't. Best ever, no doubt. How great? Not as great as everyone say. I have several friends who are widely successful in the psychological field of the human brain. We all love DBZ because it started anime. We all love those old Pokemon shows because they were our childhood and changed history. Are they a better product than what we have today? No, but we'll always remember it as the best. I don't know why people keep refuting this.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 06:31 PM
I'm not old enough to have seen him play. But I can't imagine he's not at least a little overrated. I mean people act like he was perfect out their on the court. People say he's on a different level then anyone has ever been on, and Kobe isn't even close and all that.

Well how much better can he really be? I mean its not like his defense could have been that much better than Kobe's. I know Kobe has a better jump shot and is the best ever at making those ridiculously tough shots. Jordan was better at getting a quality shot off and was better at doing other things like passing and having an all around game.

But Kobe has showed us that he isn't just a scorer. He can play a great all around game every game if he wants. He's close to Lebron's level on that when he tries. People make out MJ to be flawless. He has to be overrated

You answered it all in the first statement. If you're a fan of the game, take some time to watch a couple of his finals games. You could literally pick them out of a hat and there's a good chance it will eclipse Kobe's best ever. It's tough to describe the feeling you had when Jordan played of knowing he was about to take over a game and just crush the other playoff teams ego, but it was something I've never seen before in sport. Nobody who didn't watch him play knows this feeling, because nobody currently playing has ever had that ability, but if for no other reason it is worth watching multiple of his games (in full), to get that feeling.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 06:38 PM
You answered it all in the first statement. If you're a fan of the game, take some time to watch a couple of his finals games. You could literally pick them out of a hat and there's a good chance it will eclipse Kobe's best ever. It's tough to describe the feeling you had when Jordan played of knowing he was about to take over a game and just crush the other playoff teams ego, but it was something I've never seen before in sport. Nobody who didn't watch him play knows this feeling, because nobody currently playing has ever had that ability, but if for no other reason it is worth watching multiple of his games (in full), to get that feeling.

Exactly right. There isn't a player today I would be scared of facing. Back then, you KNEW your team was losing when MJ came to town, it was a formality. You could see Jordan literally suck the life out of opposing teams. They were at his mercy when he wanted to turn on the switch. I have personally never seen a basketball player on his level, and his numbers back up everything my eyes saw. Kobe doesn't belong in the same sentence with him. LeBron has the physical gifts, but I don't think he has the mental toughness Jordan did.

tredigs
02-08-2013, 06:40 PM
Believe me, you're one of very few who do. When people can actually think within their minds, they'll understand as well. They are so closed minded that they'll say MJ is the greatest at every little aspect of the game. He wasn't. Best ever, no doubt. How great? Not as great as everyone say. I have several friends who are widely successful in the psychological field of the human brain. We all love DBZ because it started anime. We all love those old Pokemon shows because they were our childhood and changed history. Are they a better product than what we have today? No, but we'll always remember it as the best. I don't know why people keep refuting this.

Here you go immediately contradicting yourself again. By your own analogies account, yes, those Pokemon would indeed still be the best.

Nobody here has once stated that he was the best of every aspect of the game. Simply that the totality of his dominance was on a tier that nobody else reached with as much consistency. Skill wise, Magic was better. But he did not have the total package to destroy you in so many different ways when compared to MJ.

It's not Nike, it's not nostalgia, it's simply how good and vicious this guy was as a competitor. Lebron wants to be your friend, and if he doesn't have a great ECF or Finals appearance? Well, better luck next year. MJ could care less about you, and wanted to crush you. It doesn't make him a better person, but it damn sure made him a more demonstrative and effective player - especially in the playoffs.

As to your psych experiment that you love to bring up, I have to ask why it is that not only do the 25-35 year olds realize that MJ was GOAT, but it is accepted by virtually all generations? Must be NIKE, eh? Because they've had the capability to do that with ... oh, right... nobody else.

OceanSpray
02-08-2013, 06:49 PM
Here you go immediately contradicting yourself again. By your own analogies account, yes, those Pokemon would indeed still be the best.

Nobody here has once stated that he was the best of every aspect of the game. Simply that the totality of his dominance was on a tier that nobody else reached with as much consistency. Skill wise, Magic was better. But he did not have the total package to destroy you in so many different ways when compared to MJ.

It's not Nike, it's not nostalgia, it's simply how good and vicious this guy was as a competitor. Lebron wants to be your friend, and if he doesn't have a great ECF or Finals appearance? Well, better luck next year. MJ could care less about you, and wanted to crush you. It doesn't make him a better person, but it damn sure made him a more demonstrative and effective player - especially in the playoffs.

As to your psych experiment that you love to bring up, I have to ask why it is that not only do the 25-35 year olds realize that MJ was GOAT, but it is accepted by virtually all generations? Must be NIKE, eh? Because they've had the capability to do that with ... oh, right... nobody else.

I came into this thread knowingly accepting that Jordan fans are everywhere. I knew I was going to get bashed. It's no shocker for me. Generations have been brainwashed to thinking Jordan is the GOAT of all time, same with how many think Kobe is the GOAT.

Who did Jordan face back then that were so tough during his title runs? An aging Bird/Magic? When they got Pippen, Detroit were literally trash. I mean where was the competition? Besides Utah, the difficulty of that era was overrated.

You keep using this garbage saying LeBron has this nice guy persona while Jordan was full of competitive fire. If that's the case, why couldn't Jordan's competitive nature lead him to a ring by himself? He doesn't have magical powers. In terms of competitiveness, it's evident that back then they had more to prove. Right now, if I make it to the NBA and got a huge amount of money, I would care less about winning or not winning. There is so much more in the world right now than back then. Harden was caught partying a week after their finals loss.. Why? Because players simply don't care about winning as much. It's all about the environment and how we've grown up.

AsfanSince99
02-08-2013, 08:29 PM
Okay...before :burn: me hear me out. Most people see Jordan as the "best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be". Now I'm not saying he isn't the best basketball player to play the game, but it seems like people put him on this pedestal and proclaim him to be lightyears better than other All-Time greats(Magic, Russell, Kobe, etc.)

Is it basketball blasphemy to say Jordan is overrated?
Is it even possible for the GOAT to be overrated?

For you to even ask this question means 1, you never saw him play OR 2, you saw only the last year of his career, which wouldn't give you any indication of how great of a player he was. He prob was guilty of playing 2 years too long.

zn23
02-08-2013, 08:32 PM
Well he's light years better than Kobe... that's for sure.

KnicksorBust
02-08-2013, 08:33 PM
For you to even ask this question means 1, you never saw him play OR 2, you saw only the last year of his career, which wouldn't give you any indication of how great of a player he was. He prob was guilty of playing 2 years too long.

Glad I didn't have to read through any nonsense in this thread and could just quote the most recent post. Anyone who saw Jordan's run in the 90s realized they were watching the greatest of all-time. He passes every test. The ring test. The accolodades test. The clutch test. The stats test.

AsfanSince99
02-08-2013, 08:47 PM
Jordan is VERY over rated. But you have to be mindful of where he is rated for that to make sense. Jordan was a phenom, arguably the best ever. But people talk about him like he had no flaws. He wasn't EVER the best defender on his team, and that gives his numbers a bump across the board. He didn't make ANY of his teammates better. Name one teammate that wasn't the same before or after he played with MJ. Kerr, Paxson, etc were always great shooters. You stick the, next to Kobe and they are gunner make shots. Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc were all beast without Jordan. ****, Jordan wasn't even a good guy. He punched two teammates in the face for no reason. Bullied the **** out of Kwame, quit on his team (and they balled out without him) and then he ruined their playoff chase by coming back in like April. Add in that he wasn't a good passer, or 3pt shooter (earlier) in his career and I could easily take Lebron over him if I was starting a team.

Also, keep in mind that it was easier to stack teams back then. Ad that even though no one likes to admit it, the league was a lot "whiter" back in the day. Now everyone is more athletic. How many American white guys are considered a great wing defender the way Eloh was?

I'm a fan of good players. But seriously, Jordan is so over rated it makes me sick. People act like Shaq shouldn't even be in the same conversation as him. Even though he was unguardable for a period of time.

LOLOLOLOL..........

You sound like the ultimate HATER. All your stupid claims are baseless. You're blowing smoke up your own ***.

Becks2307
02-08-2013, 08:59 PM
LOL some of you guys need to rent a NBA season from one of Jordan's titles and watch the games.

Here is how I measure how great Jordan was, be basically affected the careers of

Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, John Stockton, Penny Hardaway, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton

THEY ARE ALL RINGLESS because of MJ.

I fully believe, you put MJ in this era he does the same thing. How can you discredit MJ for playing with Pippen when Lebron plays with a Finals MVP and another All Star lol?

You know whats even crazier, forget folklore, Jordan gets even more amazing when you look at advanced stats, which is really crazy.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2013, 10:08 PM
Glad I didn't have to read through any nonsense in this thread and could just quote the most recent post. Anyone who saw Jordan's run in the 90s realized they were watching the greatest of all-time. He passes every test. The ring test. The accolodades test. The clutch test. The stats test.

yep. I mean, its that easy. Can anyone be overrated? Sure. But he is the GOAT, and there really is no debate otherwise.

kubernetes
02-08-2013, 10:23 PM
I don't see how he can be overrated. He did it all. Okay, fine, he needed Pippen and others. So what? Name a champion without a great supporting cast. And regardless of his team, his individual play stood out as without peer. I grew up on Bird and Magic (and the twilight of Dr. J), but Jordan eclipsed them all, IMO. He was a complete player in every way.

quade36
02-08-2013, 11:01 PM
LOL some of you guys need to rent a NBA season from one of Jordan's titles and watch the games.

Here is how I measure how great Jordan was, be basically affected the careers of

Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, John Stockton, Penny Hardaway, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton

THEY ARE ALL RINGLESS because of MJ.

I fully believe, you put MJ in this era he does the same thing. How can you discredit MJ for playing with Pippen when Lebron plays with a Finals MVP and another All Star lol?

You know whats even crazier, forget folklore, Jordan gets even more amazing when you look at advanced stats, which is really crazy.

This a great point. There were some amazing players in the 90s. Guys who would have been superstars in any era. Stockton was quite arguably the best point guard to ever play the game. Those teams the Bulls played were pretty stacked too. I am pretty sure both the Knicks (Ewing, Starks, Mason, Oakley, Jackson, McDaniel) and Pacer (Miller, Smits, Davis) teams were good enough to make it to the finals and possibly win if it weren't for the Bulls. The Magic too. People forget how good that Magic team was with Hardaway, Oneal, Grant, Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson. Then the teams in the west. San Antonio with Sean Eilliot, The Admiral, Avery Johnson. The Trail Blazers with Duckworth, Drexler, Porter, Strickland, Kersey and Robinson. The Jazz with Stockton, both Malones, and Hornacek. Houston (Olajuwan, Smith, Maxwell, Thorpe and Horry)and Phoenix (Barkley, Marjerle, Chambers, and Johnson) were amazing. Oh I almost forgot about the Cavs (Price, Dougherty, Nance). All these teams were stacked during the Bulls era. All these teams were build for championship runs. All these teams would have fared well in any era. All were stopped by Jordan and his supporting cast. Just curious can anyone name a player other than Pippen and Rodman that were better than any of the players I have listed above?

PleaseBeNice
02-08-2013, 11:01 PM
Highly overrated. Dude is glorified an not many people like to talk about te super cast he had

Raps08-09 Champ
02-08-2013, 11:08 PM
Glad I didn't have to read through any nonsense in this thread and could just quote the most recent post. Anyone who saw Jordan's run in the 90s realized they were watching the greatest of all-time. He passes every test. The ring test. The accolodades test. The clutch test. The stats test.

Everyone here already acknowledged that he's the GOAT.

quade36
02-08-2013, 11:10 PM
Highly overrated. Dude is glorified an not many people like to talk about te super cast he had

So talk. Besides Rodman and Pippen. Talk. Lets hear about this allstar supporting cast.

raiddalake
02-08-2013, 11:13 PM
Jordan is overrated i watched Jordan when he played he was a ball hog. When Pip came they ran the league. Everyone one else was old as hell. Magic got sick no bird barkely. How many guards in Jordans era where his size. Most of those guys were 6-4. The bigger 6-7 guys were power forwards. Player like KOBE (for all you haters) play against athletic 6-9 guys on a daily basis. What jordan did was be the most athletic guy in the league for his time. place him in the league now and bet he looks similar to Kobe. when Kobe first came into the league he gave Jordan 30. He was like 19. what would a 25 year old kobe have done. Probably the same thing Iverson did have him sliding all over. Check the size on Ehlo, Starks, Dumars, Hornacek, and the other lil 2 guards that faced Jordan. Then look at the 2's now. Lebron is the new Jordan. There is no player like him. He is a three with speed power and athletiscm. And stop with the stats Wilt averaged 50. Most dominate of his era or any era. but he was also the first Jordan and Lebron. so with that being said say hello to Kevin Durant the next super star after bron

raiddalake
02-08-2013, 11:22 PM
Kerr, Kukoc, Harper, Grant, Paxson, BJ, Cartwright, Purdue, all of these guys were skilled. Cartwright had that ugly J but he was automatic around the rim.Bj was underrated getting hurt killed his career. Kukoc was manu before manu Grant was a pit bull on the boards him and rodman was crazy back in the day. Paxson and Kerr were deadly. But the first big three was Jordan Pippen and Rodman. three hall of famers in their prime playing together.

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 02:13 AM
Believe me, you're one of very few who do. When people can actually think within their minds, they'll understand as well. They are so closed minded that they'll say MJ is the greatest at every little aspect of the game. He wasn't. Best ever, no doubt. How great? Not as great as everyone say. I have several friends who are widely successful in the psychological field of the human brain. We all love DBZ because it started anime. We all love those old Pokemon shows because they were our childhood and changed history. Are they a better product than what we have today? No, but we'll always remember it as the best. I don't know why people keep refuting this.

I've always wondered about those, actual non-fraudy, psychologists.. Like is it even a good thing to know that much about people's thoughts/actions/reasoning? I feel like I'd go absolutely crazy over every move my girlfriend or whoever makes because I might know why, and it would be so unexciting.. Like you know how she feels towards certain exes/other guys because you know female psychology.

sometimes it's not good to think and know so much.. same goes for sports.

it would be easier if we were all swimming fans. because nothing changes, it's always the same length, same time measurements. Basketball has so many different factors and is constantly evolving/changing. You should measure a player's talent/ability/success in comparison to their competition at the time.


but you can't always say "So and so would dominate in X era" and then say Jordan isn't the best because of this. Jordan did absolutely everything he could have done and the best legacy he could make of it. Better than anyone else has done with their legacy. He is the best player of all time. He basically had the best story/legacy with top 10 in best statline/rings to back it up. Guy's like Oscar Robertson had stats and success but the legacy and story was not as legendary so you have to give it to Jordan.

edit: i dont know why I used girls psychology as example there's no such thing as figuring that out..

smiddy012
02-09-2013, 02:18 AM
Why is Jordan 1-10 without Pippen and when Pippen came, he started winning big time? Fact: Because Pippen did all the dirty work for Jordan to succeed.

You are an idiot.

Rndy
02-09-2013, 02:23 AM
It's a different game now and I find a lot of the younger generation don't understand that. They see all these scorers these days and compare them to a different era. It's ******** they are so easy on offensive players in this era. In the 90's they let you play basketball.

I'll always love Basketball but I'd never compare guys like Lebron to Jordan because Lebron has had it much easier with 3 second calls, hand check fouls, and overall fouls in general. You can't even play physical anymore. I would love to see what Jordan could do now.

smiddy012
02-09-2013, 02:28 AM
WoW! So many kids on this site. I bet 95% of these have never seen MJ play. He's the undisputed GOAT. His accolades are unmatched. NOBODY can match his team success and statistical dominance. He's perfectly rated by most and underrated by Kobephiles (since they think Kobe somehow is the second coming of MJ).

Has JB seen this thread? I am sure he's gonna make all these kids STFU with just ONE post.

lmao

smiddy012
02-09-2013, 02:47 AM
Believe me, you're one of very few who do. When people can actually think within their minds, they'll understand as well. They are so closed minded that they'll say MJ is the greatest at every little aspect of the game. He wasn't. Best ever, no doubt. How great? Not as great as everyone say. I have several friends who are widely successful in the psychological field of the human brain. We all love DBZ because it started anime. We all love those old Pokemon shows because they were our childhood and changed history. Are they a better product than what we have today? No, but we'll always remember it as the best. I don't know why people keep refuting this.

People who watched MJ throughout his career, did not grow up watching Pokemon and DBZ you flamer :facepalm:

Oh, and all this is from a guy who's already stated that Lebron is better than MJ....

lol, please
02-09-2013, 02:50 AM
Glad I didn't have to read through any nonsense in this thread and could just quote the most recent post. Anyone who saw Jordan's run in the 90s realized they were watching the greatest of all-time. He passes every test. The ring test. The accolodades test. The clutch test. The stats test.

Exactly. There is hope for the NBA forum after all.

lol, please
02-09-2013, 02:51 AM
LOL some of you guys need to rent a NBA season from one of Jordan's titles and watch the games.

Here is how I measure how great Jordan was, be basically affected the careers of

Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, John Stockton, Penny Hardaway, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton

THEY ARE ALL RINGLESS because of MJ.

I fully believe, you put MJ in this era he does the same thing. How can you discredit MJ for playing with Pippen when Lebron plays with a Finals MVP and another All Star lol?

You know whats even crazier, forget folklore, Jordan gets even more amazing when you look at advanced stats, which is really crazy.
Excellent post.

lol, please
02-09-2013, 02:55 AM
6 times to the finals, with 6 rings. To me the greatest players come up big in the greatest pressure situations. Whether others find this true or not is their own opinion. For me, to get there and win EVERY time you do, with 2 prime years taken playing baseball, that's the kind of GOAT I want. The man stepped back on the floor from 2 years away and started winning rings again!

1-10 in the playoffs? Oh you mean when they were losing to two of the most dominant teams EVER? They lost to the 86 and 87 celtics (86 is widely considered one of the GOATS as far as teams go). Lost to the bad boy pistons twice, only one of the greatest defensive teams EVER. OHhh do you mean his rookie year when he dragged that team to the playoffs then lost to the bucks? Out of that group 3 rings and 5 finals appearance.

How about that supportin cast when he went to play baseball? They won a championship, right, or at least made the finals? Only way they justify being as good without him, is with another ring without him. Regular season wins do not equal championship rings. I would take Lebrons supporting cast in Miami, or Kobe's championship teams, or the 80s bird/magic celtics/laker champ squads over any of Jordan's bulls. 100% of the time.

I'm not gonna even get into hand checking.

For me, 1-10
Jordan
Russell (won a ring as a player coach often overlooked)
Kobe (will pass Russell with another ring to me)
LeBron (CAN pass Kobe and Russell with some more jewelry)
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Chamberlain

If you believe he's overrated that's fine, to me he's GOAT and won't be passed by Kobe, Lebron, or Durant (if he enters the discussion in the coming years). To me, based on the fact that Kobe, durant and Lebron have lost in the finals puts them on a level below Jordan to me. If that makes me a hater so be it. (I still love watching all of them play and have never once called any of them overrated, before you get your panties in a bunch.)

I wish I could say "great post", I actually quoted your post to say so, then I saw you put Kobe in the top 10 of all time. That just made this post hot garbage, and extremely false. Can't take anyone seriously who ranks Kobe so high. Especially before his career is over.

smiddy012
02-09-2013, 02:57 AM
MJ is so good....
He went 24-0 with HCA.

MJ is so good.....
He retired from basketball (the first time) to play baseball, because basketball was too easy for him.


Ok, well that second one's a slight exaggeration :)


It's not impossible for MJ to ever be passed... it is just quite unlikely. And even if you're just a statistician, and know nothing about the history of basketball, MJ is still the best ever. The idea that MJ is "arguably the GOAT" is not correct.

lol, please
02-09-2013, 02:59 AM
I can't believe you have the sack to be in here defending the notion that MJ is overrated Raps, I thought better of you. :pity:

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 03:00 AM
Jordan did make Space Jam tho.

add .1 to every stat he had because of that

Daaaarryyl
02-09-2013, 03:02 AM
With the best supporting cast anyone ever had..


What? Best supporting cast I ever saw where the early 80's 76'ers, the mid-late 80's Lakers and the mid late 80's Celtics.

Daaaarryyl
02-09-2013, 03:04 AM
Supporting cast huh? wennington, hodges, longley, caffey,sellers randy brown, post injury Ron harper (nowhere near the Cleveland version), old cartwright (not the young version). Gimme pippen, rodman, ho grant, and kukoc as a role player, throw out all the rest, most couldn't stick on some teams back then.

Yep.

lol, please
02-09-2013, 03:09 AM
We need a poll on PSD so we can see how many people have DoMeFavors quotes in their sig. :laugh: It has to be a record.

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 03:17 AM
Exactly right. There isn't a player today I would be scared of facing. Back then, you KNEW your team was losing when MJ came to town.

I'm definitely not a Lebron fan but the only time I've had that feeling besides Jordan was with Lebron a couple years in Cleveland. I always had to convince myself that he's a choker and his cast isnt good enough, but the entire length of the game I was ******** myself because I knew he'd start doing coast to coast sprints and get and and-1.. Now half of the fear was the refs honestly cuz Lebron used to get so many calls..

Daaaarryyl
02-09-2013, 03:47 AM
Barkley is usually spot on


You're credibility took a huge hit with a quote like that.


Although this statement told me a lot:



Why is Jordan 1-10 without Pippen and when Pippen came, he started winning big time? Fact: Because Pippen did all the dirty work for Jordan to succeed.

For years we heard Mike couldn't win the big one, that he had no supporting cast and that Pippen wasn't good enough to be a #2 on a champion. Now MJ won because he had a great supporting cast and Pippen did all the dirty work?


Glad I didn't have to read through any nonsense in this thread and could just quote the most recent post. Anyone who saw Jordan's run in the 90s realized they were watching the greatest of all-time. He passes every test. The ring test. The accolodades test. The clutch test. The stats test.

This.

For a lot of posters here who didn't see MJ play count on this- In 20 years there will be threads about the current NBA that will make you pull your hair out as well.

Daaaarryyl
02-09-2013, 03:50 AM
We need a poll on PSD so we can see how many people have DoMeFavors quotes in their sig. :laugh: It has to be a record.

He's our Peter Griffin. Remember when Family Guy was huge years ago and everyone had to have a t-shirt of something dumb that Peter said?

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 03:54 AM
Be realistic though. I guarentee a very small amount of people on here have been around to watch Magic Johnson play. or prime Bird. Any old-timer I've talked basketball with has told me Magic is the best player all time.

super-hype and Sportscenter and video was really coming around during the 90s when yup Jordan was carrying the torch.

I'm sure Wilt was the same deal. If they had ESPN like they do now back in Magic or Wilt's day I know the hype would have been just as large for them.. Magic was the biggest celebrity in LA in his day.

naps
02-09-2013, 04:10 AM
No one saw Ali either. He's regarded as the greatest ever. We all know he would get knocked out by Tyson easily. What's your point? If we're all kids, you must be an aging 40 year old. That only proves you're being biased because you assume only kids think LeBron is better. Charles Barkley, Phil Jackson, Pippen. They all questioned the legacy of Jordan and think LeBron can and will surpass him.

Dude, don't embarrass yourself anymore. LeBron has a small chance to be on MJ level (Even though I don't believe it and I am one of LeBron's biggest fans) but that has nothing to do with Jordan being overrated.

naps
02-09-2013, 04:27 AM
Be realistic though. I guarentee a very small amount of people on here have been around to watch Magic Johnson play. or prime Bird. Any old-timer I've talked basketball with has told me Magic is the best player all time.

super-hype and Sportscenter and video was really coming around during the 90s when yup Jordan was carrying the torch.

I'm sure Wilt was the same deal. If they had ESPN like they do now back in Magic or Wilt's day I know the hype would have been just as large for them.. Magic was the biggest celebrity in LA in his day.

Jordan was not hype :facepalm: He's the undisputed GOAT for countless reasons. NO ONE in the history of the game can match his combined dominance in team success, individual accolades, and statistics. PERIOD. I will bet anything if you can prove it wrong (No disrespect to Magic or other greats).

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 05:10 AM
I didn't say Jordan was all hype. I'm saying sportscenter/hyping/video was starting to come around stronger during the 90s..which makes it easier to remember Jordan's hayday. In Magic's days it was not anything like it is now.. Wilt, obviously too.

Jordan is the best player all time in my eyes, and of many. But I'm just saying we never really did get to witness Magic's greatness or Wilt's greatness..and we cant go back and remember it as much. But from what i've heard from their generations..they are the GOATS.

R. Johnson#3
02-09-2013, 05:11 AM
If you look up the word unstoppable in the dictionary there's a picture of MJ.

Supreme LA
02-09-2013, 05:22 AM
Anybody who has had the privilege of watching MJ throughout his career knows he is not overrated. Jordan came through at the biggest moments and his determination put him a cut above the rest.

Hawkeye15
02-09-2013, 06:41 AM
Be realistic though. I guarentee a very small amount of people on here have been around to watch Magic Johnson play. or prime Bird. Any old-timer I've talked basketball with has told me Magic is the best player all time.

super-hype and Sportscenter and video was really coming around during the 90s when yup Jordan was carrying the torch.

I'm sure Wilt was the same deal. If they had ESPN like they do now back in Magic or Wilt's day I know the hype would have been just as large for them.. Magic was the biggest celebrity in LA in his day.

I will see your age and challenge you to possibly tell me why Magic was better than MJ. I started watching the NBA seriously in 1984.

LOOTERX9
02-09-2013, 08:10 AM
Anybody who has had the privilege of watching MJ throughout his career knows he is not overrated. Jordan came through at the biggest moments and his determination put him a cut above the rest.

jordan was an unstoppable force. his will to win is 10 times more than lebron's is. Lebron really should have 2 titles already but lebron's poor mentality at times will hold him back. heat never should have lost to dallas in finals, that right there let me know that lebron is suspect mentally and can never be jordan. lebron would piss in his shorts if he had to face jordan in his prime. jordan just would not let his team lose, he was a killer but lebron is not that way

c.c.
02-09-2013, 08:34 AM
than who would u put as pf in ur sig :(

Juwan Howard lol j/k

AIRMAR72
02-09-2013, 10:09 AM
Kerr, Kukoc, Harper, Grant, Paxson, BJ, Cartwright, Purdue, all of these guys were skilled. Cartwright had that ugly J but he was automatic around the rim.Bj was underrated getting hurt killed his career. Kukoc was manu before manu Grant was a pit bull on the boards him and rodman was crazy back in the day. Paxson and Kerr were deadly. But the first big three was Jordan Pippen and Rodman. three hall of famers in their prime playing together.you must BE sipping ON wild cat urine KID, read this scottie WOULD have never become the player he TURNOUT to be if wasnt for MJ who showed scottie how post and use of the triple threat move along with shooting the ball everytime in practice MJ showed or tell scottie some wisdom about the game, harper(POOR offensive player) kerr(JOURNEYMAN bench warmer) purdue(the guy JUST SUCKS) kukoc(SOFT he was only good in europe he probaly do good in today nba since he hated the physical play from backthan) bill cartwright(postgame was weak and supa slow FURTERMORE HE SUCKS) those guys are ALL bonified SCRUBS, H.grant is the only guy who played with force the best OVERALL PF to play for the bulls

c.c.
02-09-2013, 10:46 AM
you must BE sipping ON wild cat urine KID, read this scottie WOULD have never become the player he TURNOUT to be if wasnt for MJ who showed scottie how post and use of the triple threat move along with shooting the ball everytime in practice MJ showed or tell scottie some wisdom about the game, harper(POOR offensive player) kerr(JOURNEYMAN bench warmer) purdue(the guy JUST SUCKS) kukoc(SOFT he was only good in europe he probaly do good in today nba since he hated the physical play from backthan) bill cartwright(postgame was weak and supa slow FURTERMORE HE SUCKS) those guys are ALL bonified SCRUBS, H.grant is the only guy who played with force the best OVERALL PF to play for the bulls

Truth

SwatTeam
02-09-2013, 10:54 AM
Jordan is not overrated (he is IMHO the GOAT) but people do put him on a pedestal like he is Zeus or something - which in turn makes him overrated.

Case in point: Antwan Jamison says that Jordan at age 50 could average 10 ppg in today's NBA if Lebron and Kobe were on his team.

Ummmm, no he would not. Lets stop all these nonsense statements that Jordan is some deity. MJ would get DESTROYED if he played in todays NBA at his CURRENT age against these young kids. Charles Barkley always said, "father time is undefeated." Every great player will become old, slow, and half the player he used to be. What proof does Jamison even have? Some random 1 on 1's with some scrub Bobcat players? Really? 1 on 1's vs. scrub Bobcats players is enough evidence to show MJ could average 10 ppg in the league today? News flash: NBA games are played in a 5 on 5 format. 1 on 1's don't mean sh**. If that were the case the league would be filled with And1 players.

Just because MJ is the GOAT doesn't give people the right to overrate him as someone who transcends the laws of physics, time, and aging. Dude is old. Its over. MJ will always live on through highlights. We will never see that level of greatness ever again or for a very long time (I believe Lebron can get close but not to MJ's level). People need to accept that that MJ is gone forever. There is no more comebacks. His status as GOAT is cemented.

ewing
02-09-2013, 11:09 AM
He was no James Harden

Daaaarryyl
02-09-2013, 11:17 AM
Case in point: Antwan Jamison says that Jordan at age 50 could average 10 ppg in today's NBA if Lebron and Kobe were on his team.


Dumb statement= Guy is overrated?

BTW-Never heard that quote before but boy those UNC guys stick together huh LOL..

SLS80
02-09-2013, 11:32 AM
No

hidalgo
02-09-2013, 11:32 AM
Magic is the 2nd best ever

it's really cool the 1991 finals had Magic vs Michael, both in their prime. MJ guarded Magic 80% of the time too. it's a huge myth that Pippen guarded him the most, that's far from the truth, MJ 80% (i have those finals on dvd, it's a fact MJ gaurded him way more). best ever vs 2nd best ever. if Magic won that finals he'd have 6, & MJ probably wouldn't have retired, & tried for 7

Jordan & Pippen vs Magic & Worthy

and Jordan is far from overrated. in my opinion he isn't talked about enough now days, for how great he was

SwatTeam
02-09-2013, 11:44 AM
Dumb statement= Guy is overrated?

BTW-Never heard that quote before but boy those UNC guys stick together huh LOL..

That's the definition of overrated. Again, I'm not disputing MJ is the GOAT. But when someone goes around saying things that defy the laws of time and the human body just because said player was the GOAT - it makes him overrated. It turns MJ from a basketball legend to a mythological figure. I would love to see what stories they are going to tell of Jordan 50 years from now.

"MJ could still hold his own in the NBA at 100 years old since they have now perfected total knee and hip implants"

SwatTeam
02-09-2013, 11:49 AM
Magic is the 2nd best ever

it's really cool the 1991 finals had Magic vs Michael. MJ guarded Magic 80% of the time too. it's a huge myth that Pippen guarded him the most, that's far from the truth, MJ 80% (i have those finals on dvd, it's a fact MJ gaurded him way more). best ever vs 2nd best ever. if Magic won that finals he'd have 6, & MJ probably wouldn't have retired, & tried for 7

Jordan & Pippen vs Magic & Worthy

and Jordan is far from overrated. in my opinion he isn't talked about enough now days, for how great he was

Are you f**king kidding me? We talk about Jordan constantly. Any time Lebron or Kobe does something great its compared to MJ. We are always searching for the next MJ during the draft. We are celebrating his 50th birthday on NBA tv, ESPN, and TNT for crying out loud and his birthday isn't until a week from now. Give me a break. MJ is shoved down our throats. Nothing wrong with that but far from the truth that he isn't talked about enough.

hidalgo
02-09-2013, 11:54 AM
yet it's still not enough

vdv36
02-09-2013, 01:33 PM
:facepalm:

DaBUU
02-09-2013, 02:43 PM
this may be the worst thread in NBA forum history. And thats saying a lot.

tdg823
02-09-2013, 02:54 PM
I think whoever started this thread is in cahoots with espn classic, they figured getting us all riled up would make us watch Jordan's games they've been showing... Shrewd move disney, you cunning little mouse.....

tdg823
02-09-2013, 03:04 PM
If I hear one more person say Jordan had a great supporting cast, I'm gonna lose it..........Please explain how, especially relative to the teams in the league at the time, his cast was good? I'd argue Jordan made those guys look much better than they were, not that they looked great anyway......

Please let's put that to rest

kntresistheheat
02-09-2013, 03:05 PM
Lol at this thread.

metsfan4ever
02-09-2013, 03:55 PM
Jordan is overrated i watched Jordan when he played he was a ball hog. When Pip came they ran the league. Everyone one else was old as hell. Magic got sick no bird barkely. How many guards in Jordans era where his size. Most of those guys were 6-4. The bigger 6-7 guys were power forwards. Player like KOBE (for all you haters) play against athletic 6-9 guys on a daily basis. What jordan did was be the most athletic guy in the league for his time. place him in the league now and bet he looks similar to Kobe. when Kobe first came into the league he gave Jordan 30. He was like 19. what would a 25 year old kobe have done. Probably the same thing Iverson did have him sliding all over. Check the size on Ehlo, Starks, Dumars, Hornacek, and the other lil 2 guards that faced Jordan. Then look at the 2's now. Lebron is the new Jordan. There is no player like him. He is a three with speed power and athletiscm. And stop with the stats Wilt averaged 50. Most dominate of his era or any era. but he was also the first Jordan and Lebron. so with that being said say hello to Kevin Durant the next super star after bron

lol if you wanna mention opposing players height with jordan, then wilt chamberlain doesnt mean *****

Lo Porto
02-09-2013, 04:13 PM
Yes Jordan is overrated. Here is why:

- there is no "GOAT". There are greatest players of eras but you can't say he was more dominant in his era than Wilt was in his. They rewrote the rule book every year because Wilt was that much of a game changer
- MJ was amazing - top 3 ever, but he was the first of his kind. If you put him in today's game which has caught up to the super athletic guys who can slash, shoot and defend, then he wouldn't dominate like he did when he was the first for the game to see.
- MJ's drive might be the best of all time, but he never won anything without Pippen and one of the greatest coaches ever. In fact, he never accomplished anything but stats without Phil. He's TMac without Phil.
- MJ was only truly elite at one thing - scoring. He could do as good as anyone ever. As for defending, even Phil said Pippen was his best defender. So MJ got to defend the 2nd best player on the court.

MJ was amazing, but nobody is the "GOAT". Top 3 is still high honors...

Pluvious
02-09-2013, 04:27 PM
Absolutely overrated, Had Pippen been able to get over the hump the season MJ was gone, I think we'd be looking at MJ a different way.. To much of the public views MJ as Superman, when realistically he had one of the greatest supporting casts ever..

Of course the supporting cast was great genius. They won 70 games one year and multiple titles! Bird, Lebron last year, Magic...all had good supporting casts when they won championships.

Pluvious
02-09-2013, 04:29 PM
Firstly, he is not the consensus GOAT. I am not alone in believing that he is NOT the best player to ever play the game.


Anybody who says that Jordan is the clear cut and definitive GOAT, either over-estimates what he did, or underestimates what others have done.

Jordan was an amazing player, no doubt, and the best SG of all time, but at the end of the day, there were people who were no less amazing than Jordan. I would say, even within his own generation, Malone, Hakeem and Barkley were as good as Jordan, even if they didn't win as much, and that Bird and Magic were as special as was Jordan, and I wouldn't argue with somebody who put Dr. J in that conversation either. Wilt, Russell and The Big O are all worthy of the accolades many heap on Jordan, and of the most recent generation I would suggest that Shaq and certainly Duncan have carried as much of an impact on the court as did Jordan, and the same could be said of perhaps Garnett as well, and I'm sure the Kobe-philes out there would put Kobe in the conversation, though to me the stat comparisons, defensive ability and rng count clearly favor Jordan handily. And LBJ is certainly making his case to be in the conversation by the time he retired.

I used to, as a die hard Pistons fan from back in the day, despised Jordan, and I still don't like him, but I do have a great respect for what he did on the court, but I must say that there are a host of other players who were just as talented as he was.

Lol. People gave him the GOAT award when he was winning his second title. Many people thought he was the greatest player ever before he even won a title...he was so much better than everyone else. Literally he was WAY better then those he played against.

Daaaarryyl
02-09-2013, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Sactown:
Had Pippen been able to get over the hump the season MJ was gone, I think we'd be looking at MJ a different way..



So if something that didn't happen, happened, we would look at things differently? What kind of logic is that?

Pippen getting knocked out in the 2nd round doesn't help your argument. It hurts it.

Pluvious
02-09-2013, 04:51 PM
If I hear one more person say Jordan had a great supporting cast, I'm gonna lose it..........Please explain how, especially relative to the teams in the league at the time, his cast was good? I'd argue Jordan made those guys look much better than they were, not that they looked great anyway......

Please let's put that to rest

I'm with you. They had some serious one dimensional nobodies (often washed up or near the end) as their 4-12 best players. They had 3 good players...Jordan, Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the rest were nobodies or maybe decent players. What are people talking about?

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 05:07 PM
I will see your age and challenge you to possibly tell me why Magic was better than MJ. I started watching the NBA seriously in 1984.

You're probably older I'm just saying that when I've talked to any older generations about NBA and they'll always say Magic is the best all-time. Not saying it's true he is, I'm saying that's what Ive been told from people who were around during his showtime days. I even questioned what about MJ? And they'll say no

not trying to say it's credible to say a few old people I've talked to are correct, but I am saying they don't always view MJ as the undisputed GOAT..

and before Magic's time Wilt was just as big as MJ/Magic. OceanSpray may be incorrect to say MJ is overrated but he's right about people clinging to their first experience/love of the dominant basketball figure a bit.
20 years from now it may even shift to all the little kids growing up to say Lebron is the GOAT. "MJ was, but look at Lebron, so much stronger and would have won just as many rings if he wasn't in Cleveland so long (could see that as an argument in future)". You know cause we consider MJ the GOAT when he doesn't have as many rings as Russell.

all I'm trying to say is not that MJ isn't the greatest, it's that if you grew up watching Magic Johnson, or super old to watch Wilt/Russell and were there during his huge amounts of fame and success you may be defendant in him/them. Because by the time you witnessed MJ you were used to seeing a phenom on the court.

DeyAce
02-09-2013, 05:11 PM
Michael Jordan overrated??? OP is an idiot

Tony_Starks
02-09-2013, 05:16 PM
MJ was one of the best ever but this notion that he's in some special untouchable category is a huge myth. If you saw guys like Magic, Bird and Kareem play there's no way you can tell me they don't belong in the "GOAT" conversation. They beat some of the greatest teams ever assembled, MJ caught Magic, Bird, Zeek..etc on the back end of their careers.....

I'm not saying he wasnt the man but the whole "it's not even close" argument is very overrated and usually perpetuated by people that didn't even see him play...

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 05:17 PM
I think whoever started this thread is in cahoots with espn classic, they figured getting us all riled up would make us watch Jordan's games they've been showing... Shrewd move disney, you cunning little mouse.....

funny I caught myself doing that after reading this thread.
not espn classic tho did they move that channel or something I can never find it anymore.

ThuglifeJ
02-09-2013, 05:35 PM
- There are greatest players of eras but you can't say he was more dominant in his era than Wilt was in his. They rewrote the rule book every year because Wilt was that much of a game changer
- MJ was amazing - top 3 ever, but he was the first of his kind. If you put him in today's game which has caught up to the super athletic guys who can slash, shoot and defend, then he wouldn't dominate like he did when he was the first for the game to see.

I think this is an underrated aspect of Wilt.. Imagine if we were witnessing MJ causing them to change rules because MJ was too good. Like that is crazy.

your second point there I think makes MJ look even less amazing then he actually was, which is hard to do. MJ if you didn't witness firsthand, looks really good on highlights but you see guys after Jordan and say well Jordan wasnt that much more talented.. That's because those young gunz got to see Jordan and Jordan opened up so many answers to the game of basketball, that's why there were so many good players after Jordan. Let's be honest as unique as all the baby-Jordans were they were in fact baby-Jordans. They were Wing players who were scoring at will, passing shooting dunking dribbling. All the things that made us blown away by Jordan.

Jordan is responsible for an entire era after him.. That is also crazy. Kobe, Tmac, Carter, Iverson, Marbury, Allen, Pierce, Ginobli, Francis, Wade, etc.
None of those guys would even be who they were if Jordan wasn't before him. They were all unique in their own way but none of them just figured out ways to score/approach the game without watching Jordan.


the only reason why Jordan is overrated is because he feels so priveledged to use Mike Jame's nickname like its his

rocketfuel
02-09-2013, 06:19 PM
Other future PSD topics to come:

Has Steve Nash been given too much credit for his passing?

Was Robert Horry just lucky?

JWO35
02-09-2013, 06:26 PM
Other future PSD topics to come:

Has Steve Nash been given too much credit for his passing?

Was Robert Horry just lucky?

Was Russell & Wilt only good because they played versus 5'9 180lbs white guys?

tredigs
02-09-2013, 06:29 PM
You're probably older I'm just saying that when I've talked to any older generations about NBA and they'll always say Magic is the best all-time. Not saying it's true he is, I'm saying that's what Ive been told from people who were around during his showtime days. I even questioned what about MJ? And they'll say no

not trying to say it's credible to say a few old people I've talked to are correct, but I am saying they don't always view MJ as the undisputed GOAT..

and before Magic's time Wilt was just as big as MJ/Magic. OceanSpray may be incorrect to say MJ is overrated but he's right about people clinging to their first experience/love of the dominant basketball figure a bit.
20 years from now it may even shift to all the little kids growing up to say Lebron is the GOAT. "MJ was, but look at Lebron, so much stronger and would have won just as many rings if he wasn't in Cleveland so long (could see that as an argument in future)". You know cause we consider MJ the GOAT when he doesn't have as many rings as Russell.

all I'm trying to say is not that MJ isn't the greatest, it's that if you grew up watching Magic Johnson, or super old to watch Wilt/Russell and were there during his huge amounts of fame and success you may be defendant in him/them. Because by the time you witnessed MJ you were used to seeing a phenom on the court.

I'm not sure what circle of old time watchers you have been asking (are you from LA?), but this is definitely not the sentiment with the older ball heads that I know. Certainly isn't the sentiment from older players, analysts or coaches, either. Magic himself called Jordan the greatest ever beginning in 1993 - and that was before his 2nd 3-peat.

DaBear
02-09-2013, 06:56 PM
No. There is no current NBA player who will surpass him.

tdg823
02-10-2013, 01:18 AM
Robert Horry was kinda lucky... just sayin... good player in his prime, but hewas pretty bummy for a lot of years at the end when he still hit some bigshots. Not lucky to hit the shots, he was clutch, but those shots ended up defining him more than the whole of his career, so he was lucky in a right time, right place (but credit to him for taking advantage of opportunity)