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spreadeagle
02-01-2013, 03:30 PM
If Lionel Hollins is coaching the Memphis Grizzlies next season, Iíll be surprised.

He continues to say things that clearly can be taken at tweaks at management. Last month he had a rant against the trend of advanced statistics in the NBA, that right after new owner Robert Pera (an advanced math guy) hired a front office filled with stats guys including former ESPN analyst John Hollinger.

Now this. No coach likes it when one of his best players gets traded, but you say things that back the organization when you do. But Hollins said this, via the Oklahoman.

ďWhen you have champagne taste, you canít be on a beer budget. Itís a small market and I understand the economics of being in a small market. Iíve been with the Grizzlies for 11 years in Memphis. Rudy Gay has been a big part of our success. Iíve known him as a kid as a rookie coming in. Heís a big part of my success as a coach here and I feel I was a big part of his success and I wish him the best as he moves forward into the second chapter of his career.Ē

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/01/grizzlies-coach-hollins-doesnt-sound-like-fan-of-gay-trade/

Blitzbolt
02-01-2013, 03:34 PM
Gay and coach Hollins took over after the Pau trade so yea he is mad about this.

beasted86
02-01-2013, 03:52 PM
Can't agree more.

I guess time will tell whether these stat geeks know what they are doing. But I promise you in the short term (this season) the Grizzlies are worse after the trade.

CubbieSteve
02-01-2013, 03:53 PM
Grillzlies...:laugh2:

Bruno
02-01-2013, 03:55 PM
i understand moving rudy. i dont understand the pieces they got back from him, or why its being tied to advanced statistics. it was a money saving move, not a stat move, yea?

spreadeagle
02-01-2013, 04:15 PM
i understand moving rudy. i dont understand the pieces they got back from him, or why its being tied to advanced statistics. it was a money saving move, not a stat move, yea?
Hollinger was always hard on Rudy when he was an ESPN stat guy or whatever for being inefficient, prob wanted him out from day 1

Stinkyoutsider
02-01-2013, 04:19 PM
I totally agree with coach. You don't win titles by being cheap.

justinnum1
02-01-2013, 04:21 PM
Game time.

Per 36;
Player A 16.9ppg 5.8reb 2.5ast 40%fg 31% 3pt
Player B 13ppg 5.2reb 2.7ast 44%fg 43% 3pt

One of those guys makes 15mil this season, and 45mil over the next 3 seasons
the other player makes 6mil this year and 14 over the next 2 seasons.

For a team that needs shooters one could say that player B and his higher FG% fits better.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 04:33 PM
Hollins doesn't pay the bills. Now do your job, and coach.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 04:34 PM
btw, the last 5 NBA champions all employ statistical analytics crews. Sorry guys, its part of the current and future NBA. The old days of going with your gut have been molded.

justinnum1
02-01-2013, 04:34 PM
Hollins isn't even that good of a coach. He has cost that team more wins than gay imo.

Sly Guy
02-01-2013, 04:41 PM
lol, he's not the only one. I think Casey's quietly mad in toronto as well.

homestarunner93
02-01-2013, 04:43 PM
Hollins can't be happy with these moves, but he shouldn't be voicing it in the media. That's a quick, one-way ticket out of town.

Tony_Starks
02-01-2013, 04:47 PM
Hollins should be upset. The trade was made for all the wrong reasons and just threw away the best shot they ever have had, and perhaps ever will have at winning a title. They had already dumped salary it wasn't necessary. Worse case scenario they could've gave it a shot this season and unloaded him in the summer, it's not like they got a blockbuster deal.......

JasonJohnHorn
02-01-2013, 04:50 PM
Hollins is right. I understand. Gay gave him a lot and he feels loyal to the player and wants him to know he wasn't behind this move. And he's right when he says you can't drink champagne on a beer budget.

How many championship teams were below the salary cap? I'd hazard a guess that the 04 Pistons were likely one of the cheaper championship teams, and even they spent a fair share on their team (though they failed to keep them together because the ownership didn't want to spend the money).

Gotta feel for a coach who is trying to win but his bosses are pulling the rug out from under him.

that said, I think Ed Davis and Prince have the potential to make this team better.

spreadeagle
02-01-2013, 04:58 PM
btw, the last 5 NBA champions all employ statistical analytics crews. Sorry guys, its part of the current and future NBA. The old days of going with your gut have been molded.

Im not a fan really, maybe im old school. I just hate when I read stuff like per whatever Andre Drummond is the best rookie Center of all time type stuff...whatever happened to actually watching a guy play instead of reading stat sheets printed out at nausea by computers

John Walls Era
02-01-2013, 05:05 PM
O yeah I forgot about Hollinger and how he works for the Grizzlies. LOLOLOLOL No wonder HIS trade machine on ESPN projected that they would win more games.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:23 PM
Im not a fan really, maybe im old school. I just hate when I read stuff like per whatever Andre Drummond is the best rookie Center of all time type stuff...whatever happened to actually watching a guy play instead of reading stat sheets printed out at nausea by computers

well, there needs to be a mix. It seems to me ESPN is going overboard with their attempts to get a Hollinger replacement, and churning out a lot of stat articles right now. But the days of using ex-ball players as pretty much the only source of scouting and putting teams together is gone, being replaced by a mix of people who have played the game, coached the game, scouted the game, and then a bunch of short bald white dudes who instead of playing the game, studied it to a science.

If you guys don't think Hollinger has watched more basketball, not only on tape, but in person, than any of us, you are dead wrong. He was paid to watch basketball for years.

Lim
02-01-2013, 05:26 PM
they are easily better without gay. he was a cancer to them. just look at when they made that lil playoff run 2 years ago when gay was out with a shoulder injury. Sam friggin young was starting in his place...

SteveNash
02-01-2013, 05:30 PM
btw, the last 5 NBA champions all employ statistical analytics crews. Sorry guys, its part of the current and future NBA. The old days of going with your gut have been molded.

So do the Charlotte Bobcats.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:34 PM
So do the Charlotte Bobcats.

So does almost every team. Point is, teams are using this now. And the Bobcats weren't using them when they put together the embarrassment they have now. The GOAT was calling the shots, based on his gut feelings and expertise.

Tony_Starks
02-01-2013, 05:36 PM
Some of these small market teams wonder why they can't sustain success. They wan't their cake and eat it too. Sacramento was run into the ground and just sold for big bucks. Memphis sold for big bucks. But yet they still wanna play broke. Then the new owner comes in and starts tightening the belt during their best start ever. Their core 4 guys would've kept them contenders for minimum next 3 or so years.......

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:38 PM
I really can't believe people are still buying into Rudy Gay being a star caliber player. This isn't going to hurt the Grizz at all, unless continuity is the issue. Cause it won't be the level of talent dropping off. They get an upgrade on defense at the wings, who can stretch the floor much better than Gay, and great depth up front, all while becoming more financially flexible. Toronto is the one that lost this trade.

SteveNash
02-01-2013, 05:43 PM
My point being that having the last 5 champions have them mean little without context.

Doesn't take a statistician to tell you that signing LeBron, Wade, and Bosh might be a good idea. Or that a Kwame for Pau swap might workout.

Besides that, it's hard to judge the level of influence on decisions unless they are the actual GM. Which we have in Morey who has been terrible.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 05:43 PM
I really can't believe people are still buying into Rudy Gay being a star caliber player. This isn't going to hurt the Grizz at all, unless continuity is the issue. Cause it won't be the level of talent dropping off. They get an upgrade on defense at the wings, who can stretch the floor much better than Gay, and great depth up front, all while becoming more financially flexible. Toronto is the one that lost this trade.

Gay was the guy who created shots when the D buckled down, the offensive set came up empty and you needed a late clock or late game shot. The last 5 champions had those guys too. Grizz don't anymore.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 05:45 PM
Well then he should have come up with a better offensive system, one that made use of his talents abilities. This whole slow it down and grind it out thing is partly why Gay struggled IMO.


Gay was the guy who created shots when the D buckled down, the offensive set came up empty and you needed a late clock or late game shot. The last 5 champions had those guys too. Grizz don't anymore.

Sadly he was also a guy who couldn't make high% shots EARLY in the shot clock and is partly why their offense is so ******. I blame the coach and Rudy for their failures.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:45 PM
Gay was the guy who created shots when the D buckled down, the offensive set came up empty and you needed a late clock or late game shot. The last 5 champions had those guys too. Grizz don't anymore.

so what? Beasley was that for the Wolves, it didn't mean he didn't suck, it meant he could create his own shot. High volume shot creators are the most overvalued players in the NBA. Just because you CAN get a shot off, doesn't mean you are good at knocking it down.

blahblahyoutoo
02-01-2013, 05:46 PM
Hollins doesn't pay the bills. Now do your job, and coach.

true, but that's like taking the tools from a mechanic that he's accustomed and replacing them with something different and telling him to figure things out on the fly.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:46 PM
Well then he should have come up with a better offensive system, one that made use of his talents abilities. This whole slow it down and grind it out thing is partly why Gay struggled IMO.

For sure, but for all his gifts, he shoots way too many long 2's, and just doesn't attack enough. Would having a faster paced team help him? Probably. Will they employ that in Toronto, or will he be an inefficient jump shooter again?

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:47 PM
true, but that's like taking the tools from a mechanic that he's accustomed and replacing them with something different and telling him to figure things out on the fly.

no, that is not the same. Mechanics pick their own tools, its their work. When you are a coach, at the pro level, it is expected that you will lose players to injury, trades, and free agency, and its your job to make adjustments.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 05:48 PM
So do the Charlotte Bobcats.

Yea and its about time MJ did so. Funny how the best draft the greatest player of all time ever had, was chosen by his stat head GM.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 05:49 PM
Besides that, it's hard to judge the level of influence on decisions unless they are the actual GM. Which we have in Morey who has been terrible.
Utterly false. And check out what Cuban has said about the stat guy he valued enough to give a championship ring to.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 05:52 PM
so what? Beasley was that for the Wolves, it didn't mean he didn't suck, it meant he could create his own shot. High volume shot creators are the most overvalued players in the NBA. Just because you CAN get a shot off, doesn't mean you are good at knocking it down.

Its still a skillset a championship team needs. Grizz had it with Gay. They don't have it anymore. Most regarded them as a championship contender. Now when the game slows down and you need a late isolation score from the perimeter your not gonna get it and might not even get a shot off in those situations. Regardless if Gay was elite at it, he was essential in that role within the team dynamic. Felton is not efficient or even better than mediocre, but we have nobody else on the Knicks that can fill his role, and our team falls off a cliff when hes out. You could say the same for Gay, nobody on that team can step up and fill that role that all contenders need to fill.

If they kept Mayo this would be a non issue.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 05:55 PM
Its still a skillset a championship team needs. Grizz had it with Gay. They don't have it anymore. Most regarded them as a championship contender. Now when the game slows down and you need a late isolation score from the perimeter your not gonna get it and might not even get a shot off in those situations. Regardless if Gay was elite at it, he was essential in that role within the team dynamic. Felton is not efficient or even better than mediocre, but we have nobody else on the Knicks that can fill his role, and our team falls off a cliff when hes out. You could say the same for Gay, nobody on that team can step up and fill that role that all contenders need to fill.

If they kept Mayo this would be a non issue.

If its a required skillset, go find someone way better at it than Gay.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 05:59 PM
If its a required skillset, go find someone way better at it than Gay.

Well, to do it now would mean you probably have to sacrifice some quality assets. And at that point your hurting your team elsewhere to fill that role. They had all the bases covered with a complete team, they don't anymore. Top 10 position players don't grow on trees.

You think the fact that the last 5 champions had stat crews is a huge correlation but the fact that every single championship team sans the '04 Pistons had a wing player who could take and make deep contested shots late in clocks and late in games doesn't matter?

SteveNash
02-01-2013, 05:59 PM
Utterly false. And check out what Cuban has said about the stat guy he valued enough to give a championship ring to.

So how much credit are you going to give him?

Obviously that team was led by Dirk which arrived long before. Same with Terry/Kidd. Bringing in Chandler was obviously due to Cuban's checkbook more than a statistician finding some hidden gem. So how much credit would you give?

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 06:01 PM
My buddy works for the Miami Heat as an entry level production assistant. He got a ring last year. Nearly every employee in the organization gets a ring. If ya don't believe me here ya go. http://instagram.com/p/TJvpjoKyYn/

I wouldn't put all that much stock into that.

Tony_Starks
02-01-2013, 06:03 PM
so what? Beasley was that for the Wolves, it didn't mean he didn't suck, it meant he could create his own shot. High volume shot creators are the most overvalued players in the NBA. Just because you CAN get a shot off, doesn't mean you are good at knocking it down.


I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs. Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch and he's a versatile defender.

I'd take him over an aging Taysuan any day of the week......

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 06:06 PM
I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs. Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch and he's a versatile defender.

I'd take him over an aging Taysuan any day of the week......

I don't think the importance of that dynamic for a team can be quantified through efficiency or advanced stats. I mean how many huge shots do you recall Manu taking because he was the guy with that skillset to get off shots late in the clock with a stepback bucket? There are certain shots TP and Duncan can't get you, and those are the contested deep shots that great playoff defenses are going to force you to take and make in the playoffs.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 06:15 PM
Well then he should have come up with a better offensive system, one that made use of his talents abilities. This whole slow it down and grind it out thing is partly why Gay struggled IMO.



Sadly he was also a guy who couldn't make high% shots EARLY in the shot clock and is partly why their offense is so ******. I blame the coach and Rudy for their failures.

I don't think Rudy/Marc/Zbo was a prime fit but I also don't think LBJ and Wade are prime fits. I don't think Westbrook and Durant are prime fits. Its tough to build a system around Gay/ZBo/Marc that is going to play to all of their strengths. Hollins went with the bruisers inside instead of the fast pace finesse player, and Rudy had to sacrifice his game as a result.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 06:17 PM
For sure, but for all his gifts, he shoots way too many long 2's, and just doesn't attack enough. Would having a faster paced team help him? Probably. Will they employ that in Toronto, or will he be an inefficient jump shooter again?
Yea I dont get how someone whos been in a steady environment with the same teammates for so long, could decline like this. I havent checked the numbers much but at first I thought maybe they were slowing it down more to favor the improving Gasol. But looking at his shot selection based on shot clock tendency, hes not shooting as well as he did last year early in the shot clock. He is taking slightly more shots with the clock running down (Which is about the only valuable skill he has as a final shot creator) and he is making more of them than he did last year.

Sadly his efficiency early in the shot clock has suffered dramatically. Last year Gay had an eFG% of 60% on shots taken within 10 seconds, this year its down to 47%. Similar declines in the 11-15 range.

Gotta go through a synergy session to see if hes just not attacking the rack or what but hes essentially lost 2ppg off his average simply from not scoring early in the possession any more despite actually being assisted more often. Its ****ing wierd for sure.


That said, he cant play any worse and maybe the Raps should consider playing him at the 4 extensively. I think you have to maximize Gay to make sense of this trade

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 06:19 PM
I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs. Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch and he's a versatile defender.

I'd take him over an aging Taysuan any day of the week......

I am sticking to my belief that shot creators are so overvalued. Unless you get a good one, they just dupe you into believing they are the only option when the clock is winding down, instead of being creative as a coach.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 06:23 PM
Yea I dont get how someone whos been in a steady environment with the same teammates for so long, could decline like this. I havent checked the numbers much but at first I thought maybe they were slowing it down more to favor the improving Gasol. But looking at his shot selection based on shot clock tendency, hes not shooting as well as he did last year early in the shot clock. He is taking slightly more shots with the clock running down (Which is about the only valuable skill he has as a final shot creator) and he is making more of them than he did last year.

Sadly his efficiency early in the shot clock has suffered dramatically. Last year Gay had an eFG% of 60% on shots taken within 10 seconds, this year its down to 47%. Similar declines in the 11-15 range.

Gotta go through a synergy session to see if hes just not attacking the rack or what but hes essentially lost 2ppg off his average simply from not scoring early in the possession any more despite actually being assisted more often. Its ****ing wierd for sure.


That said, he cant play any worse and maybe the Raps should consider playing him at the 4 extensively. I think you have to maximize Gay to make sense of this trade

It is weird. I mean, he is 26, and has had as steady of a situation for growth as any player could ask for, yet he is in year 3 of his regression, smack in the middle of his prime. But when I sit here and read a bunch of posters say Toronto won this trade because they got an all star caliber player, I feel the need to bring up that Gay is nowhere in the stratosphere as an all star caliber player over the past 2.5 years.

Gay guarding PF's is a scary thought. For the Raps.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 06:27 PM
I don't think the importance of that dynamic for a team can be quantified through efficiency or advanced stats. I mean how many huge shots do you recall Manu taking because he was the guy with that skillset to get off shots late in the clock with a stepback bucket? There are certain shots TP and Duncan can't get you, and those are the contested deep shots that great playoff defenses are going to force you to take and make in the playoffs.
If you have to take a contested deep shot, you are going to lose anyways.

Anyways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqu1sVzOvVs

Spurs run the best sets in the NBA: they don't need a shot creator.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 06:29 PM
I don't think the importance of that dynamic for a team can be quantified through efficiency or advanced stats. I mean how many huge shots do you recall Manu taking because he was the guy with that skillset to get off shots late in the clock with a stepback bucket? There are certain shots TP and Duncan can't get you, and those are the contested deep shots that great playoff defenses are going to force you to take and make in the playoffs.

If you can coach, like Pops, you don't need a bail out guy. The Spurs run plays at the end of the clock, not just chuck it to the one guy who can get a long contested 2 off...

Having and efficient bail out guy is one thing. But trying to identify each teams best one, even if you overlook they flat out are not good at it, is another. Again, the shot creator mentality gets coaches in trouble. Instead of running a basketball play, they just throw it to their one on one winner in practice and let him chuck away. That is laziness, unless you have LeBron, Durant, Kobe, and a few others.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 06:31 PM
So how much credit are you going to give him?
More than you.


Obviously that team was led by Dirk which arrived long before. Same with Terry/Kidd.
Nope, Kidd was brought in partly because of Winstons anaylsis on clutch play. It was a trade berated by many, including myself but Harris was a flash in the pan and Kidd's clutch play inevitably played a greater role than Harris ever could. Seriously read up on them, at least if you intend on bashing the revolution.


Bringing in Chandler was obviously due to Cuban's checkbook more than a statistician finding some hidden gem. So how much credit would you give?
WW helped identify Rick Carlisle's propensity for playing optimal lineups, which played a role in his hire. Not sold on your Chandler theory.

He has helped as a tacticion in terms of lineup analysis dating back to the Rockets series IIRC.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 06:32 PM
My buddy works for the Miami Heat as an entry level production assistant. He got a ring last year. Nearly every employee in the organization gets a ring. If ya don't believe me here ya go. http://instagram.com/p/TJvpjoKyYn/

I wouldn't put all that much stock into that.

Thats good news but Winston was the first. Maybe teams now understand their value. Also Spoelstra/Riley are pretty smart stat guys so I can understand why they would follow suit.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 06:32 PM
Ever wonder why Melo always led the NBA by a wide margin on game winners, percentage wise? Because Karl ran a set play to get him a high percentage shot, versus other teams just giving it to their guy and clearing out.

Kevj77
02-01-2013, 06:41 PM
btw, the last 5 NBA champions all employ statistical analytics crews. Sorry guys, its part of the current and future NBA. The old days of going with your gut have been molded.Advanced stats had very little impact on any of those teams. Last five champions Celtics, Lakers, Lakers, Mavs, Heat.

Celtics made blockbuster trades for KG and Allen to play with Pierce. Lakers made a blockbuster trade for Pau to play with Kobe and Odom. Mavericks made a big trade for Tyson Chandler to play with Dirk and Terry that finally provided them with the tough defensive center they had needed for years. Heat signed Lebron and Bosh to play with Wade.

If anything advanced stats were used to evaluate roll/bench player not put the core of a champion together. Old school blockbuster trades to add to their drafted superstars is what made these teams champions.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 06:46 PM
Advanced stats had very little impact on any of those teams. Last five champions Celtics, Lakers, Lakers, Mavs, Heat.

Celtics made blockbuster trades for KG and Allen to play with Pierce. Lakers made a blockbuster trade for Pau to play with Kobe and Odom. Mavericks made a big trade for Tyson Chandler to play with Dirk and Terry that finally provided them with the tough defensive center they had needed for years. Heat signed Lebron and Bosh to play with Wade.

If anything advanced stats were used to evaluate roll/bench player not put the core of a champion together. Old school blockbuster trades to add to their drafted superstars is what made these teams champions.

First you have to be able to identify superstars, and the lineups that would fit best. These are done by the stat heads. And then yes, role players with various needs need to be identified on what production they bring. This is done by stat heads as well. Look, nobody is saying that a computer will put a team together. Hollinger, and most NBA hired stat nerd watches more basketball than any of us. On top of that, they use numbers to gauge value along with what their scouts and their eyes see.

Tymathee
02-01-2013, 06:51 PM
he should be even more upset cuz Zach Randolph is next.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 06:52 PM
I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs.
But he couldn't always get you a bucket in that fashion.


Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch
Based on what tho?


and he's a versatile defender.
Whats the point of versatility if your barely average defensively? Tay is pretty versatile but I have my doubts hes the same defender he used to be. We'll find out.

homestarunner93
02-01-2013, 06:53 PM
So does almost every team. Point is, teams are using this now. And the Bobcats weren't using them when they put together the embarrassment they have now. The GOAT was calling the shots, based on his gut feelings and expertise.

Actually, Rod Higgins was.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:07 PM
I am sticking to my belief that shot creators are so overvalued. Unless you get a good one, they just dupe you into believing they are the only option when the clock is winding down, instead of being creative as a coach.

lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?

All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches. Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:11 PM
If you have to take a contested deep shot, you are going to lose anyways.

Anyways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqu1sVzOvVs

Spurs run the best sets in the NBA: they don't need a shot creator.

You think I'm talking about coming out of a timeout?

Every team has to take deep contested shots to win playoff games. If you have nobody that can do it, your not gonna win games.

Spurs run tremendous offensive sets, but even they come up empty, and they are relegated to leaving Parker out there to pull up from 15-20 where he hits a ton of huge buckets.


If you can coach, like Pops, you don't need a bail out guy. The Spurs run plays at the end of the clock, not just chuck it to the one guy who can get a long contested 2 off...

Having and efficient bail out guy is one thing. But trying to identify each teams best one, even if you overlook they flat out are not good at it, is another. Again, the shot creator mentality gets coaches in trouble. Instead of running a basketball play, they just throw it to their one on one winner in practice and let him chuck away. That is laziness, unless you have LeBron, Durant, Kobe, and a few others.

Except the Spurs have had bail out guys every year they've been a contender. And they run high pick and rolls with Parker who spots up from mid range, and creates a shot late in the clock out of nothing. Its the same idea, Parker loves the mid range jumpers and right now hes there guy who takes those bailout shots. Hes a scorer before a distributer. It used to be Manu.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 07:12 PM
lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?

All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches. Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.


This reasoning is why these guys are overvalued. You are talking about one possession of a game full of hundreds of possessions.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:13 PM
This reasoning is why these guys are overvalued. You are talking about one possession of a game full of hundreds of possessions.

I'm not talking about 1 possession. I'm talking about late shot clock possessions as well.

And while its the minority of the possessions, those are the key possessions that tight playoff games come down to. I think those possessions need to be microanalyzed more than your average possession. Your offensive sets will get you some layups, wide open shots in rhythm throughout a game, you will be hard pressed to get those same easy looks in a clutch possession.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 07:16 PM
I'm not talking about 1 possession. I'm talking about late shot clock possessions as well.

Teams like the Clippers need this ability from CP3 because their coach runs some of the worst offensive sets in basketball. However, a team like the Spurs, they run the best sets and do not need this ability. And the Spurs playoff resume speaks for itself.

Having a coach who can run good sets is more important than a "shot creator."

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:20 PM
Thats good news but Winston was the first. Maybe teams now understand their value. Also Spoelstra/Riley are pretty smart stat guys so I can understand why they would follow suit.

The first what? All I said was even low level employees get championship rings. Cuban giving him a ring doesn't mean he praises his work any more than his former NBA player employees, or his video production guys, or his marketing guys. Its standard procedure.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:23 PM
Teams like the Clippers need this ability from CP3 because their coach runs some of the worst offensive sets in basketball. However, a team like the Spurs, they run the best sets and do not need this ability. And the Spurs playoff resume speaks for itself.

Having a coach who can run good sets is more important than a "shot creator."

You can run the best sets in the world but your ability to win a championship is going to come down to your ability to get stops, and hit tough shots that would otherwise be considered 'stops' for the defense.

You think Pop just draws up layup miracle plays all game long through the playoffs?

Having a coach who runs good sets won't win you a chip without shot creators. I think history has proven that.

Two guys who are considered pretty braindead coaches who don't run very creative sets beat two XO masterminds in the conference finals last year.

Sssmush
02-01-2013, 07:23 PM
they didn't gain anything by trading him now instead of during the summer, and they probably just flushed their chances at an (unlikely) NBA championship

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:25 PM
How can you say the Spurs don't need this ability? Parker and Ginobili have hit so many huge buckets out of nothing throughout their playoff runs. Timmy has also hit his fair share of late clock pick and pops off Parker.

Again, a coach can only call one play in a 24 second shot clock (that takes 6-8 seconds to get up the court and initiate). A XO genious like Pop isn't pulling out a second miracle play mid-shot clock with everyone in random spots on the floor because the original set came up empty. If the first set comes up empty, someones creating their own shot. Thats how it works in the NBA.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 07:26 PM
lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?
I think hes saying its on both the coach and the player, and that he would rather have a set with multiple options so that when one breaks down, you dont just rely on toilet clogged possessions as Phil Jackson would say (Im pretty sure thats what he called them).



All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches.
Yea but depending on the player and his system, they happen less frequently if you have players who dont have to rely on those shots.


Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.
I disagree entirely, I dont think games are won and lost that way.

The Grizz were a much better offensive unit when they didn't have Gay around to stagnate offenses back when they made their run. That was with Battier being a strong/efficient shooter off of set plays.

Lets put it simply
For the Grizz,
With Gay you had a more stagnant sets and thus relied more on those low% final second shots. With a guy like Battier, you can have more movement and sets that end with high% shots.

True, when a possession breaks down you wont have that 33% chance of making the shot. But you have a greater odds at not needing that shot in the first place.

I mean its one thing if Gay is elite at what he does, but he clearly hasn't been for the Grizz.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 07:30 PM
The first what?
Statistician to get a ring.


All I said was even low level employees get championship rings. Cuban giving him a ring doesn't mean he praises his work any more than his former NBA player employees, or his video production guys, or his marketing guys. Its standard procedure.
Yea I dont believe you know standard operating procedures around the league.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:32 PM
I think hes saying its on both the coach and the player, and that he would rather have a set with multiple options so that when one breaks down, you dont just rely on toilet clogged possessions as Phil Jackson would say (Im pretty sure thats what he called them).



Yea but depending on the player and his system, they happen less frequently if you have players who dont have to rely on those shots.


I disagree entirely, I dont think games are won and lost that way.

The Grizz were a much better offensive unit when they didn't have Gay around to stagnate offenses back when they made their run. That was with Battier being a strong/efficient shooter off of set plays.

Lets put it simply
For the Grizz,
With Gay you had a more stagnant sets and thus relied more on those low% final second shots. With a guy like Battier, you can have more movement and sets that end with high% shots.

True, when a possession breaks down you wont have that 33% chance of making the shot. But you have a greater odds at not needing that shot in the first place.

I mean its one thing if Gay is elite at what he does, but he clearly hasn't been for the Grizz.

My thing is, regardless, they are going to need those shots. Adding a more efficient player isn't going to assure you of never playing in tight games or have to create in empty possessions. Every single team has to do that.

You can't even guarantee that being a more efficient team will put you in better positions to finish games. The game isn't played in a vaccuum like that. Battier and his limited skillset makes you a much easier team to defend than a guy like Gay. Battier puts no pressure on the interior D, you can shut him out with your worst defender as long as they don't fall asleep on him. I don't even think you can say adding a more efficient individual player like Battier will make your team more efficient team overall. They were a different team back than, Battier/Gay wasn't the only difference, and I have said for years Mayo was extremely underrated for that team.

My main point is that, every team needs that 33.3% late clock shooter, because a playoff defense is going to force you into those shots, regardless of the quality of your offense.

I also don't think it matters that Gay wasn't elite at what he does. Its the fact that he does what he does, and nobody else on the team does it. Same comparison with Felton and the Knicks, hes not that good at what he does, yet makes our team so much more dynamic and difficult to defend.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:37 PM
Statistician to get a ring.


Yea I dont believe you know standard operating procedures around the league.

Likewise my friend, considering you thought it was a big deal the stat geek in the Mavs FO got one.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 07:37 PM
My thing is, regardless, they are going to need those shots. Adding a more efficient player isn't going to assure you of never playing in tight games or have to create in empty possessions. Every single team has to do that.

You can't even guarantee that being a more efficient team will put you in better positions to finish games. The game isn't played in a vaccuum like that. Battier and his limited skillset makes you a much easier team to defend than a guy like Gay. Battier puts no pressure on the interior D, you can shut him out with your worst defender as long as they don't fall asleep on him. I don't even think you can say adding a more efficient individual player like Battier will make your team more efficient team overall. They were a different team back than, Battier/Gay wasn't the only difference, and I have said for years Mayo was extremely underrated for that team.

I think my main point is that, every team needs that 33.3% late clock shooter, because a playoff defense is going to force you into those shots, regardless of the quality of your offense.

I also don't think it matters that Gay wasn't elite at what he does. Its the fact that he does what he does, and nobody else on the team does it. Same comparison with Felton and the Knicks, hes not that good at what he does, yet makes our team so much more dynamic and difficult to defend.


Grizzlies without Gay beat the Spurs and took the Thunder to seven. They used set plays near the end and were very efficient.

Grizzlies with Gay were put away by the Clippers in seven because despite Gay creating for himself, he could not do it efficiently enough near the end of the game.

The offense is geared towards finding highly efficient shots, and the defense is geared for the opposite. That is not different in the regular season.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 07:38 PM
Likewise my friend, considering you thought it was a big deal the stat geek in the Mavs FO got one.

If you call people who use the best information geeks I can call you an idiot for ignoring it.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:42 PM
Grizzlies without Gay beat the Spurs and took the Thunder to seven. They used set plays near the end and were very efficient.

Grizzlies with Gay were put away by the Clippers in seven because despite Gay creating for himself, he could not do it efficiently enough near the end of the game.

The offense is geared towards finding highly efficient shots, and the defense is geared for the opposite. That is not different in the regular season.

Grizzlies also had a guy named OJ Mayo who could create shots in those situations. I don't even think you get my points. I'm talking about late clock, not late game. Every team is going to run set plays late in the game, my point is that very often those plays will come up empty and you will need to drill some tough contested shots and need a guy who can create space and get clean shots off in those situations.

I understand what offense and defense is about. Except it doesn't always work like a charm. Thats why people get played to play defense. You need guys who can get you buckets despite a lights out defensive possession.

D-Leethal
02-01-2013, 07:43 PM
If you call people who use the best information geeks I can call you an idiot for ignoring it.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying more efficient =/ better. I'm saying well rounded team dynamic > stat sheets.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 07:50 PM
Grizzlies also had a guy named OJ Mayo who could create shots in those situations. I don't even think you get my points. I'm talking about late clock, not late game. Every team is going to run set plays late in the game, my point is that very often those plays will come up empty and you will need to drill some tough contested shots and need a guy who can create space and get clean shots off in those situations.

I understand what offense and defense is about. Except it doesn't always work like a charm. Thats why people get played to play defense. You need guys who can get you buckets despite a lights out defensive possession.
The line of thought you need a shot creator to win close games is very odd to me. Because we know, with the amount of data throughout basketball that games with in 3-5 points generally break 47-53 percent. There is very high variation in close games. Teams do not win close games at high rates. It never happens. That's why the idea of a "shot creator" who can take long contested twos and make around 25 percent is not a good notion to have.

Vinylman
02-01-2013, 07:55 PM
btw, the last 5 NBA champions all employ statistical analytics crews. Sorry guys, its part of the current and future NBA. The old days of going with your gut have been molded.

really... who is that guy on the Lakers... and if your answer is Jim Buss you might want to rethink your position on what defines an analytical crew...

The last two laker chips had ZERO to do with employing advanced stat techniques

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 07:56 PM
really... who is that guy on the Lakers... and if your answer is Jim Buss you might want to rethink your position on what defines an analytical crew...

The last two laker chips had ZERO to do with employing advanced stat techniques

There is more than one guy in charge. They have a whole team, and there is a crew of statisticians for each team.

--23--
02-01-2013, 07:57 PM
This is why i didn't like this move in the middle of the season, Hollins already showed his dislike with the Gay trade talks. This is just a lot of un-needed drama for a team that was playing so good before the trade and rumors.

KniCks4LiFe
02-01-2013, 08:05 PM
Hollins should be upset. The trade was made for all the wrong reasons and just threw away the best shot they ever have had, and perhaps ever will have at winning a title. They had already dumped salary it wasn't necessary. Worse case scenario they could've gave it a shot this season and unloaded him in the summer, it's not like they got a blockbuster deal.......

That's what everyone is missing. I like Ed Davis, but he ain't no Rudy Gay. He's never had that being the man pressure. Rudy Gay has won a championship in his young pre NBA career, he's tasted the NBA conference finals, Ed Davis when the pressure of the playoffs and high expectations come, and this is the year the Grizzs could have knocked off OKC w/ the Westbrook issues and losing Harden, it's just not a good move.

Vinylman
02-01-2013, 08:06 PM
There is more than one guy in charge. They have a whole team, and there is a crew of statisticians for each team.

I don't want to turn this into an argument that AS aren't useful... obviously they are one of many tools teams use to assemble teams...

I asked a specific question... who was doing AS for the Lakers in their last two championship runs and what information was used to assemble or improve the team to win those chips...

I know the answer to this ... i just want Hawkeye to support his overgeneralization that using AS is why the last 5 champs are champs...

what was the AS contribution in Miami that got them over the top? Wasn't the roster exactly the same last year as it was the year before? Did they use AS to bring in Lebron and Bosh? or even Ray Allen this year?

It has been insignificant in 4 of the last 5 chips (Celtics/Lakers/Miami)... it can be argued that Dallas employed it in an effective manner... yet it is fairly easy to dismiss the dallas championship as nothing more than the stars aligning and a team getting on a roll (the reality of their chip)

KniCks4LiFe
02-01-2013, 08:12 PM
I'm not saying discount. But the Dallas ship' I mean a big part of that was playoff tested vets and a big star in Dirk. Memphis doesn't have that after this trade. Maybe you protect the ball a little better but your system is in the limbo.

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 08:13 PM
I'm not saying discount. But the Dallas ship' I mean a big part of that was playoff tested vets and a big star in Dirk. Memphis doesn't have that after this trade. Maybe you protect the ball a little better but your system is in the limbo.

They never had a dirk to start with.

KniCks4LiFe
02-01-2013, 08:15 PM
They never had a dirk to start with.

no one said they did.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 08:16 PM
My thing is, regardless, they are going to need those shots. Adding a more efficient player isn't going to assure you of never playing in tight games or have to create in empty possessions. Every single team has to do that.
The point is that your going to need less of those plays, which can make the difference in close games, in that you will be the one in actual control because you've been so effective throughout.

Like let me put it this way, if the Grizz had Battier in the series vs us, we prolly lose that series. So often they had to rely on Gay to score in isolation and he was locked down by the simplest of strategies. If instead of being down 1-2 pts they were up 1-2 points, the outcome of the game could go differently despite you lacking that "iso player".

The greater point Im trying to make, is if Gay is your idea of that kind of player, you may as well move on because the he hasn't been for the Grizz. In fact, Id say hes been part of the problem.




You can't even guarantee that being a more efficient team will put you in better positions to finish games. The game isn't played in a vaccuum like that.
Irrelevant, you cant gaurantee that having an isolation scorer will put you in better position to finish games either. But what do you make of the fact that isolation scoring drops more than any other play type come post season?


Battier and his limited skillset makes you a much easier team to defend than a guy like Gay.
I disagree completely, Battier makes up for his limited skillset by maximizing a dominant trait (corner shooting, brilliant reads) that depending on the skillset of his teammates can improve an offense more than a low% chucker can. Its why the Grizz were better offensively with Battier than they ever were with Rudy Gay. I saw the same thing play out in Houston. Towards the end when much of Tmac's value was his ability to create something out of nothing, Battier was regularly having a greater impact on the teams offense. Like back then if you had Tmac+Yao but no Battier, the offense wasnt that good. But if you had atleast 1 shot creator with Battier, the offense ran much more crisply. Thats because as talented as you have to be to draw attention and or create off the bounce, you equally need players who can knock down those plays and space the floor. Granted Gay is better than that version of Tmac, you get what Im trying to say.




Battier puts no pressure on the interior D, you can shut him out with your worst defender as long as they don't fall asleep on him.
The problem is, if your shutting down Battier, that means your leaving the lane open for his primary options. In other words, hes doing his job. Hell we saw how spaced out the best shot blocker in the game last year and that was a declining Battier. I totally get your point about Battier's weaknesses but its about who he has with him as well. On certain teams, Battier will have more of an impact than others, same with shot creators.


I don't even think you can say adding a more efficient individual player like Battier will make your team more efficient team overall. They were a different team back than, Battier/Gay wasn't the only difference, and I have said for years Mayo was extremely underrated for that team.
The key is studying those differences. Feel free to give your input on those differences and I will give you mine.


My main point is that, every team needs that 33.3% late clock shooter, because a playoff defense is going to force you into those shots, regardless of the quality of your offense.
I do believe there is value in what your saying, I just think in the case of Gay, its overvalued. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. How you play throughout 100% of the game will always be more important to me than how you play on a select few possessions. We just dont view the game the same way.


I also don't think it matters that Gay wasn't elite at what he does. Its the fact that he does what he does, and nobody else on the team does it. Same comparison with Felton and the Knicks, hes not that good at what he does, yet makes our team so much more dynamic and difficult to defend.
Felton vs who tho?

Guppyfighter
02-01-2013, 08:17 PM
I'm not saying discount. But the Dallas ship' I mean a big part of that was playoff tested vets and a big star in Dirk. Memphis doesn't have that after this trade. Maybe you protect the ball a little better but your system is in the limbo.

Good job.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Likewise my friend, considering you thought it was a big deal the stat geek in the Mavs FO got one.

Except I know that he was the first to get a ring. If being the first isn't a big deal then its at least a notable one.

And what kind of ring did your friend get anyways? I have a hard time believing everyone gets the same kind of ring.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2013, 08:31 PM
lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?

All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches. Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.

It is on the coach and his players. There should be set plays for late shot clock situations. Most teams that have a shot creator they just chuck to in a bailout attempt end up having lesser success, unless they have one of the few eilte ones, of which Gay is far from.

The playoffs are not won by isolations dude. Not even close. They are won by the better team, with the more balanced offense/defense. Holllins has not done a good job of running early sets to avoid putting his team in that situation, and Rudy holding onto the ball doesn't help the issue.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 08:33 PM
I asked a specific question... who was doing AS for the Lakers in their last two championship runs and what information was used to assemble or improve the team to win those chips...

I know the answer to this ... i just want Hawkeye to support his overgeneralization that using AS is why the last 5 champs are champs...
I honestly wasn't aware that the Lakers even had a statistical consultant . From how their roster has been built the last few years it seems they simply just go for the big names with no regards to bench players and whatnot. Not a bad thing but thats more about money/market than advanced scouting.


what was the AS contribution in Miami that got them over the top? Wasn't the roster exactly the same last year as it was the year before? Did they use AS to bring in Lebron and Bosh? or even Ray Allen this year?
In terms of roster construction it didn't play a role, it doesn't take much analysis to realize going after Bron/Bosh is good for your team. It had more of a role in terms of projecting the newcomers numbers and where they would be best effective. You can chalk that up to plain old fashion scouting, but Spoelstra knew the numbers and it shaped his strat.


It has been insignificant in 4 of the last 5 chips (Celtics/Lakers/Miami)... it can be argued that Dallas employed it in an effective manner... yet it is fairly easy to dismiss the dallas championship as nothing more than the stars aligning and a team getting on a roll (the reality of their chip)
Well that depends on how you view things, Daryl Morey was actually in Boston before being hired by the Rockets. In his short time in Boston IIRC he was a huge fan of Rondo and Scalabrine (yes I know). Then with Houston he worked with JVG and his assistant (Tom Thibs) and provided them with intense scouting reports. By intense I mean the kind of analysis that Thibs covets, like what kind of fouls refs are more prone to calling and what not.

You could argue that it was Morey's super computer tactics that improved an already genius defensive mind. That mind played a huge role in Boston's defense and subsequently how the league at large now defends. (Loading up strong side box has never been so prevalent)

Stats dont play a huge role in the big picture, but they provide a competitive advantage at finding daimonds in the rough and building a supporting cast.

Ive said this a million times, the move for LeBron James will net you more victories, but being able to find a valuable role players late in the draft requires more intellect and analysis which can net you great returns later.

Not buying your Dallas argument tho

Chronz
02-01-2013, 08:56 PM
Perhaps Im not doing a good enough job of explaining the phenomena of an inferior individual talent producing better TEAM results.

Ill bring up some stats to illuminate my point.

In 2011 the Grizz made that memorable run, that season here is how the numbers (per36minutes) break down for the key members of the Grizz.


With Battier on the court --------- With Gay on the court
Mike Conley: 16pts (48FG%) 13.5PTS (45FG%)
OJ Mayo : 16pts (3p% .45) 15.2PTS (40FG%)
Z-Bo : 22.3pts (50FG%) 18.6pts (48FG%)
Gasol : 14.2pts (52FG%) 12.6pts (52FG%)



Now its one thing to put more pressure on your teammates to score, but making them both more prolific and efficient is something of true value.
So while Battier himself may be easier to contain, the intangible impact he has on his teammates is strong enough to offset that in most comparisons. And when your talking about someone whos played as poorly as Gay has this year, its easy to see why its time to move on. Even if Gay looks better in Toronto, I think he had enough time to make it work in Memphis, if it was even possible given their poor sets.

Basically, the reason Gay looked good (if you feel he looked good) was partly because he made his teammates look worse (in a comparison vs a truly efficient outlet option).

Quinnsanity
02-01-2013, 09:05 PM
They're better now. Ed Davis gives them the extra big man they needed to spell Gasol and Zbo without losing much production, Prince gives them an incredible defensive combo on the perimeter. This is just a better version of the team that beat the Spurs. Advanced stats are the way of the future.

DR_1
02-01-2013, 09:40 PM
Nice to see a coach finally calling an owner out for being cheap. Tough for the coach to do his job if all the owner wants to do is save money.

Chronz
02-01-2013, 09:47 PM
Nice to see a coach finally calling an owner out for being cheap. Tough for the coach to do his job if all the owner wants to do is save money.

Tough for an owner to swallow the contract when his coach isn't getting **** out of such a player.

rockbottom2010
02-01-2013, 10:19 PM
lol, he's not the only one. I think Casey's quietly mad in toronto as well.

why would casey get mad...the raptors just got a bit better

mzgrizz
02-01-2013, 10:55 PM
I really can't believe people are still buying into Rudy Gay being a star caliber player. This isn't going to hurt the Grizz at all, unless continuity is the issue. Cause it won't be the level of talent dropping off. They get an upgrade on defense at the wings, who can stretch the floor much better than Gay, and great depth up front, all while becoming more financially flexible. Toronto is the one that lost this trade.

Still think this, Hawkeye? I'd like to believe it................

b@llhog24
02-01-2013, 10:56 PM
One game sample size? Really?

heyman321
02-01-2013, 10:57 PM
why would casey get mad...the raptors just got a bit better

Casey was pissed cause he lost Calderon, but he aint mad after tonight.

sixer04fan
02-01-2013, 10:57 PM
Hollins doesn't pay the bills. Now do your job, and coach.

This

mzgrizz
02-01-2013, 11:14 PM
Well, Toronto won tonight with Rudy getting 20 and leading all scorers; Detroit won tonight without Calderon and Memphis up 8 with 20 someodd seconds to go..........nice.

Vinylman
02-01-2013, 11:14 PM
I honestly wasn't aware that the Lakers even had a statistical consultant . From how their roster has been built the last few years it seems they simply just go for the big names with no regards to bench players and whatnot. Not a bad thing but thats more about money/market than advanced scouting.


In terms of roster construction it didn't play a role, it doesn't take much analysis to realize going after Bron/Bosh is good for your team. It had more of a role in terms of projecting the newcomers numbers and where they would be best effective. You can chalk that up to plain old fashion scouting, but Spoelstra knew the numbers and it shaped his strat.


Well that depends on how you view things, Daryl Morey was actually in Boston before being hired by the Rockets. In his short time in Boston IIRC he was a huge fan of Rondo and Scalabrine (yes I know). Then with Houston he worked with JVG and his assistant (Tom Thibs) and provided them with intense scouting reports. By intense I mean the kind of analysis that Thibs covets, like what kind of fouls refs are more prone to calling and what not.

You could argue that it was Morey's super computer tactics that improved an already genius defensive mind. That mind played a huge role in Boston's defense and subsequently how the league at large now defends. (Loading up strong side box has never been so prevalent)

Stats dont play a huge role in the big picture, but they provide a competitive advantage at finding daimonds in the rough and building a supporting cast.

Ive said this a million times, the move for LeBron James will net you more victories, but being able to find a valuable role players late in the draft requires more intellect and analysis which can net you great returns later.

Not buying your Dallas argument tho

Thanks for your response and I bolded the most important point you made and the one that alot of the AS guys miss...

As for the Dallas argument... it is pretty straightforward... the played miserably in the Portland series and barely got through... got incredibly hot from there on...

there shooting numbers against the Heat were off the charts and not indicative how they would have played over an extended period of time... go look at the shooting during the critical stretches during the key wins against the Heat... the numbers are mind boggling

I am no way taking away from Dallas's chip... they totally deserved it ... but it was the perfect storm

rockbottom2010
02-01-2013, 11:49 PM
Casey was pissed cause he lost Calderon, but he aint mad after tonight.

casey will realized that the raptors just got a whole lot better...btw...u gotta change that sig pic

Blitzbolt
02-01-2013, 11:53 PM
Hollins was all smiles today its been a hard week for him Conley was injured and he only had about 8 players because of the trades with Cleveland and the Raps.

koreancabbage
02-02-2013, 12:19 AM
well they lost Mayo and Gay now. I'm sorry but your talent level just went way down.

and people gotta stop bringing up the 2 years ago 3 OT away from the Finals. If they had Rudy Gay, they probably could have made it. Next year, different scenario, but different factors. Now you might say they lost b/c of Rudy Gay, then you don't realize there are 4 other players and a whole bench that also plays as well. Gay might have been the scapegoat but i'm sure he wasn't the reason why they lost.

now the team chemistry you say might get better but considering Gay is only 26 years old (and Mayo before him), its obvious Memphis isn't getting any younger or more talented with these moves. Sure they get flexibilty, and that is what it comes down to, money. And the matter of truth is that it will doubly as hard to get someone of Gay's calibre to play that position every again, franchise wise.

I just don't see how this trade makes them any more of a contender than they were with Gay. Ed Davis isn't going to get a lot of minutes anymore so its a moot point.

money wise, win for Memphis. talent wise- Toronto only gave them an expiring and a so-so big, its quite obvious the Raptors won the trade, short and long term. You gotta remember its only two more years of Rudy Gay. Salary wise for the Raps - they were most likely not going to be major players for marquee free agents this offseason. If they can trade themselves out of the Bargnani contract for an expriring, that will open up the doors a little bit more. or they keep him and Bargs is a changed man with his sabbatical he has taken so far with his injuries.

Guppyfighter
02-02-2013, 02:01 AM
Thanks for your response and I bolded the most important point you made and the one that alot of the AS guys miss...

As for the Dallas argument... it is pretty straightforward... the played miserably in the Portland series and barely got through... got incredibly hot from there on...

there shooting numbers against the Heat were off the charts and not indicative how they would have played over an extended period of time... go look at the shooting during the critical stretches during the key wins against the Heat... the numbers are mind boggling

I am no way taking away from Dallas's chip... they totally deserved it ... but it was the perfect storm


They have stats for guys who are on the court together. Like Rondo's teammates do better on three point shooting when he is in, but worse in the paint. This is because the clog the paint more because they are daring him to shoot the midrange. So his teammates do worse in the paint, but better outside.

Stats, if you look hard enough, account for more than you can imagine. And that's why speaking without proper knowledge on them is pretty ignorant.

rockbottom2010
02-02-2013, 09:10 AM
i don't blame hollins for being upset....john hollinger ****ed up

da ThRONe
02-02-2013, 09:50 AM
If it there were a ton of super efficient wing scorers that can create their own shots every team would have at least one. There's a very small list of guys that give you what Gay does while shooting a high percentage.

mzgrizz
02-02-2013, 10:30 AM
Gay could be pretty frustrating at times. He would just drift off and lose focus in a game. Watched him do it many times. But I will surely miss him. Glad he got a good start last night. Memphis will be fine.