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el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 06:03 PM
people always put weight into the "mileage" players have. kobe is the best example probably. he has played so long in the league. it is already his 17th season. the thing is, he is only 34. people talk like he is some old man because he has more mileage on him. the thing is, kids are still playing when they are in college. sure, it isnt nearly as much, but they still play. with modern medicine now a days, i think a players mileage is completely overstated. it seems like most guys break down when their body genetically breaks down, not from an extreme amount of mileage.


do you think too much weight is put into this? quiet frankly, i am not that impressed when people rave about kobe's mileage. with modern medicine, most players can keep going as long as their genetics allow.

Kashmir13579
01-16-2013, 06:12 PM
This might be your worst thread of all time.

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 06:13 PM
Absolutely mileage is a factor. Some athletes games are based less on athletic ability, and many of them become more skilled as they age, therefore they are able to sustain a high level of play. Kobe is an example of that. He is also an example of an athlete who takes perfect care of themselves physically, which is another key. No major injuries helps as well. But to say a player with 1450 games at high minutes on his body doesn't suffer from mileage is not true.

Vee-Rex
01-16-2013, 06:16 PM
I don't think it's overstated. College games do not take the kind of toll a full NBA season does. Sure, Kobe is having an amazing year at 34, but he's the kind of player Jordan was. At 34 MJ was having a very similar kind of year.

A full NBA season is not overstated. Usually players decline very very quickly. But then, MJ played at an all-star level even at age 39. So you can't really compare players like Kobe/MJ since they are special. If injuries (and the chances of getting bad ones increase as you age) don't cause decline then minutes per game certainly will.

TheSource
01-16-2013, 06:18 PM
Looking for another reason to discredit Kobe?

MrfadeawayJB
01-16-2013, 06:19 PM
mileage is more of a factor than age imo

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 06:19 PM
Looking for another reason to discredit Kobe?

if anything, this thread would credit him for being an outlier..

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 06:22 PM
mileage is more of a factor than age imo

how so? modern medicine can keep guys going and keep them closer to how their body SHOULD be at a given age. modern medicine cannot reverse aging though. when your body breaks down due to age and genetics, not much you can do. kobe has had some of the best doctors in the world perform surgery on him. i dont think he would be much different of a player right now if he enter the league at 21.

ManRam
01-16-2013, 06:24 PM
It's not overblown.

Kobe being an exception to the rule doesn't mean the rule isn't true.

MrfadeawayJB
01-16-2013, 06:27 PM
mileage has more to do with the body breaking down than age. It makes you age quicker

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 06:28 PM
can some of you post some modern examples of players breaking down early due to mileage as opposed to age? kevin garnett has pretty much the same amount of minutes played as kobe, but i dont see him breaking down like somebody with his mileage should. he is playing about where he should at that age, even better in my opinion. he is a big man too, so mileage must be harder on him.

examples?

shep33
01-16-2013, 06:28 PM
Kobe isn't the only exception, although yeah he's an extreme case. Look at Nash, Duncan, Ray Allen, Kg, Pierce, etc.

In my opinion, had guys like Vince, Tmac, etc. taken better care of themselves, they could've gone down as some of the best to ever play, and in the category of the guys I mentioned above.

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 06:29 PM
Kobe isn't the only exception, although yeah he's an extreme case. Look at Nash, Duncan, Ray Allen, Kg, Pierce, etc.

In my opinion, had guys like Vince, Tmac, etc. taken better care of themselves, they could've gone down as some of the best to ever play, and in the category of the guys I mentioned above.
why does kobe get so much credit for it then? duncan and kg have just about the same mileage, are older, and are both performing at extremely high levels too.

MrfadeawayJB
01-16-2013, 06:34 PM
the problem with your argument is you are using guys that are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. Most players that put on too much mileage and don't keep themselves in phenomenal shape are no longer in the league

TopsyTurvy
01-16-2013, 06:46 PM
For every Kobe or any other paragon of health/mileage, I could counterpoint with a Brandon Roy, Jamal Mashburn, Greg Oden, etc. You are playing the outlier game with players who have remained remarkably healthy while ignoring the rest.

The league is a grind, every player admits that. Every player also admits there will come a day when their body cannot keep up.

Bruno
01-16-2013, 06:56 PM
This might be your worst thread of all time.

x2. its like a paragraph from onion article.

sep11ie
01-16-2013, 07:10 PM
The OP is the DoMeFavors of thread making...

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 07:13 PM
For every Kobe or any other paragon of health/mileage, I could counterpoint with a Brandon Roy, Jamal Mashburn, Greg Oden, etc. You are playing the outlier game with players who have remained remarkably healthy while ignoring the rest.

The league is a grind, every player admits that. Every player also admits there will come a day when their body cannot keep up.

no, you cant counterpoint with brandon roy and greg oden. both injury prone players who had bodies that weren't meant for basketball. nothing to do with mileage. their body just couldnt handle basketball and broke down.

KnicksorBust
01-16-2013, 07:30 PM
For every Kobe or any other paragon of health/mileage, I could counterpoint with a Brandon Roy, Jamal Mashburn, Greg Oden, etc. You are playing the outlier game with players who have remained remarkably healthy while ignoring the rest.

The league is a grind, every player admits that. Every player also admits there will come a day when their body cannot keep up.

Amount of time I spent reading/thinking about your post = 15 seconds
Amount of time I spent watching and re-watching kate upton = 30 seconds

You gotta be careful when your post quality to sig ratio is 2 to 1 or higher.


no, you cant counterpoint with brandon roy and greg oden. both injury prone players who had bodies that weren't meant for basketball. nothing to do with mileage. their body just couldnt handle basketball and broke down.

This makes no sense. Their bodies did "handle basketball" but they broke down because their mileage was far inferior to the Kobe/Duncan/Nash/Pierce/KG group.

Teufelshunde4
01-16-2013, 07:46 PM
people always put weight into the "mileage" players have. kobe is the best example probably. he has played so long in the league. it is already his 17th season. the thing is, he is only 34. people talk like he is some old man because he has more mileage on him. the thing is, kids are still playing when they are in college. sure, it isnt nearly as much, but they still play. with modern medicine now a days, i think a players mileage is completely overstated. it seems like most guys break down when their body genetically breaks down, not from an extreme amount of mileage.


do you think too much weight is put into this? quiet frankly, i am not that impressed when people rave about kobe's mileage. with modern medicine, most players can keep going as long as their genetics allow.

I would bet if you looked at tape from Kobe's early years and today the biggest difference is his efficiency vs his raw athletic ability. Kobe knows how to pace himself every game and season.. Modern medicine has help no doubt..


Dont have time to look it up but what were his minutes his first 3 seasons in the league?

Money_23
01-16-2013, 07:53 PM
nvm

Vinylman
01-16-2013, 07:54 PM
I don't think it's overstated. College games do not take the kind of toll a full NBA season does. Sure, Kobe is having an amazing year at 34, but he's the kind of player Jordan was. At 34 MJ was having a very similar kind of year.

A full NBA season is not overstated. Usually players decline very very quickly. But then, MJ played at an all-star level even at age 39. So you can't really compare players like Kobe/MJ since they are special. If injuries (and the chances of getting bad ones increase as you age) don't cause decline then minutes per game certainly will.

kobe has already played around 200 more games in his career than Jordan when you factor in the playoffs

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 07:54 PM
steroids don't count?

are you saying kobe is roiding?

Money_23
01-16-2013, 07:56 PM
are you saying kobe is roiding?

no but it's just the first example that comes to mind. LEGAL modern medicine can slow down aging as well.

Gritz
01-16-2013, 08:28 PM
How are you supposed to get the belt with threads like this?

LA4life24/8
01-16-2013, 08:31 PM
Topsy turvy, who is that in your sig, omg she is sooo sexy

Doogolas
01-17-2013, 08:40 AM
no, you cant counterpoint with brandon roy and greg oden. both injury prone players who had bodies that weren't meant for basketball. nothing to do with mileage. their body just couldnt handle basketball and broke down.

Here's the thing:
Kobe is still rocking prime Kobe numbers right now. Hell, one could potentially argue this is the second best season of his career to this point offensively. Meanwhile, even guys like KG and Pierce and Allen and now really even Wade to an extent, don't have close to the numbers in their prime years:

KG PER36 age 26-29:
20.9PP 12.3RP 4.8AP 1.3SP 1.5BP

Minutes Per Game: 39.2

Age 34-36:
17.7PP 9.6RP 3.0AP 1.3SP 1.0BP

Minutes Per Game: 30.8

Paul Pierce age 26-29:
22.8PP 6.2RP 4.4AP 1.4SP

Minutes Per Game: 37.8

Age 34-35:
20.7PP 5.7RP 4.5AP 1.4SP

Minutes Per: 33.7

Ray Allen age 26-29:
21.6PP 4.5RP 3.9AP 1.2SP

Minutes Per Game: 38.1

Age 34-37:
16.2PP 3.5RP 2.6AP 1.0SP

Minutes Per Game: 33.8

Kobe Bryant age 26-29:
27.5PP 5.2RP 4.7AP 1.4SP

Minutes Per Game: 40.3

Age 34:
27.8PP 4.6RP 4.5AP 1.4SP

Minutes Per Game: 38.6


Pretty much everyone except Kobe has some drop off in their production and again, keep in mind these are the PER36 minutes numbers, not what they're actually capable of putting up. When you factor in the fact that with KG you have 8.4 fewer minutes per game. Pierce you have 4.1 fewer minutes per game, Ray Allen you have 4.3 fewer minutes per game and then with Kobe you only have 1.7 fewer minutes per game and no real drop off in production, what he is doing is nothing short of remarkable.

I didn't include Wade cause the dude is still way too young to be compared fairly at this point.

LeperMessiah
01-17-2013, 01:24 PM
different players have different lifespans.

LongIslandIcedZ
01-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Mileage absolutely is a factor, but it isnt limited to just sheer number of games played. Style of play must be taken into account. There is a reason why Wade is declining so early in his career. Not that he isnt still a great player, but its pretty obvious he is at least starting to decline a bit. The guy plays 100 mph and is always getting beat up when he is on the floor. That takes way more of a toll than the fact that he is 27-28 (?). Kobe evolved his game to the point where he doesnt have to play wreckless, improving the finesse aspect of his game. This will allow him to play later.

Age is just a number, its about wear and tear on the body.

MrfadeawayJB
01-17-2013, 01:50 PM
Mileage absolutely is a factor, but it isnt limited to just sheer number of games played. Style of play must be taken into account. There is a reason why Wade is declining so early in his career. Not that he isnt still a great player, but its pretty obvious he is at least starting to decline a bit. The guy plays 100 mph and is always getting beat up when he is on the floor. That takes way more of a toll than the fact that he is 27-28 (?). Kobe evolved his game to the point where he doesnt have to play wreckless, improving the finesse aspect of his game. This will allow him to play later.



Age is just a number, its about wear and tear on the body.


same could be said for Ginoboli early on in his career

Shlumpledink
01-17-2013, 02:06 PM
As of last year Kobe didn't have any cartilage in his knee, that is an example of your body breaking down. It doesn't matter what your dna is, you don't regrow cartilage. You lose mobility in the joint, then the joint stiffens up, then you lose the ability to use that joint entirely and have to get the replacement. Kobe had an experimental procedure to help alleviate the symptoms of it, but how long will that last for him?

You see it a lot when players haven't played a full season yet, they play a full season then get injured the next year, or they "hit the wall" during the year and lose effectiveness.

NBA miles is a big thing, and it isn't just the game it's the training as well. Basketball is very high impact on your joints. Kobe is still playing at a high level, but he's lost some of is explosiveness over the years. Same is true for all players.

Kevin garnett has also kept himself in really good physical condition. He's very lean, and trim. He doesn't have a heavy build and he's in great shape. He is putting less weight on his joints by staying at a lower body weight. Kobe has lost weight twice over his career. I think he is at his lowest playing weight of his career right now, after losing weight before the olympics a few times. That is going to help his joints out a lot.

Kareem abdul jabaar played a long time, and attributed that to playing with lighter shoes. He felt that carrying the least amount of weight as possible on your frame was essential to your overall health. Kareem also kept himself at a lower body weight and in good physical condition throughout his career. You see the guys who carry a lot of weight getting all kinds of lower body injuries that nag them later in their career. It's not age, it's the cumulative effect of all those steps taken on the court, all the running and jumping.

LongIslandIcedZ
01-17-2013, 02:10 PM
same could be said for Ginoboli early on in his career

Absolutely, and he's evolved his game. He doesnt do that much at all anymore. They preserve his minutes and he is a good shooter. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Chronz
01-17-2013, 02:11 PM
Absolutely mileage is a factor. Some athletes games are based less on athletic ability, and many of them become more skilled as they age, therefore they are able to sustain a high level of play. Kobe is an example of that. He is also an example of an athlete who takes perfect care of themselves physically, which is another key. No major injuries helps as well. But to say a player with 1450 games at high minutes on his body doesn't suffer from mileage is not true.
Aging is not what the OP is denying.



mileage is more of a factor than age imo
40 year old MJ had less mileage than Kobe does now didnt he? Id say he was far older and less athletic than Kobe regardless of the miles.

el hidalgo
01-17-2013, 02:14 PM
Aging is not what the OP is denying.



40 year old MJ had less mileage than Kobe does now didnt he? Id say he was far older and less athletic than Kobe regardless of the miles.

this is what im saying. i believe that youre destined to start losing your athleticism and slow down when you start hitting a certain age. working out and being in great shape can help with this marginally, but it is still bound to happen.

what im saying is now a days with modern medicine and surgery, guys are able to play at a high level up until they start losing athleticism and slowing down. mileage isnt so much of a factor anymore.

JasonJohnHorn
01-17-2013, 02:17 PM
Concern of "mileage" is a legit concern. The human body is like a car engine. After so many miles, certain parts will wear out. You WILL need new brake pads. You WILL need new tires. If you take care of your car, these things will last longer. If you get regular maintenance, you could get 500 000 miles out of an engine and a transmission, but it's more likely that you will only get around 250 000- 300 000 out of them.

In the same fashion a player who takes care of his body will have a better shot at a long lasting career. Karl Malone. Moses Malone. Kareem. Stockton. These guys took care of their bodies. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody who takes care of their bodies will have long careers because accidents happen to people just like they happen to cars. Grant Hill. Penny. And sometimes a car doesn't last long because parts were defective or under undue stress, which you see in guys like Ralph Sampson, Greg Oden, and Yao Ming.

And a guy who jumps from highschool to the NBA will be exposed to more wear and tear than a guy who stays in college for four season. The college game, they play a couple games a week, then March Madness rolls around and they play a couple games on the weekends, then take a week off. NCAA plays literally less than half the games of an NBA season, not to mention playoffs. NCAA playoffs only two teams play 6 additional games to the regular season, the rest play five or less, so a team that plays all the way to the finals plays potentially one game less than an NBA team who loses in the first round (given they take the series to seven games).

All those games add up over time. The joints in your body are designed to last only so long. The more stress and pressure you put on them, the shorter their life span is, even if you take care of yourself. Some guys will see their joints and such last longer than others, that's just the hand they were dealt by nature.

So yeah, Kobe has a lot of mileage. He's taken care of himself, so it is likely that he will be able to play into his late 30's if his health keeps up, and even potentially until 40 or 41 should he desire (Stackhouse is 38 and still playing, and has been playing as long as Kobe).

When you add things like the Asia tour Kobe has done, and off-season conditioning, and playing for team USA, there are a lot of miles racked up on that body. Will it impact how long he can play? Yes. The body sometimes ages quicker for some guys, others might find that their overall muscle mass and such can be maintained, but things like joints cannot, so no matter how good your conditioning is, you can't stay in the game as long as you might want to. Guys who have good conditioning can stave off some of the effects of aging, as so can put themselves in a position to play longer, but there is not much they can do about ankles, and knees, and backs and joints. If those things go...

Also, guys who build their game a certain way can last longer. Ray Allen is a great shooter. He doesn't rely on quickness to score. He comes off screens, and shoots, and you can do that whether you are quick or not. Post players who rely on power and foot work can last longer than guys who rely on slashing to the basket and quickness.

But yeah... the more games you play, the more wear and tear you put on your body and that wear and tear can potentially bring an end to one's career before they are ready.

Chronz
01-17-2013, 02:19 PM
this is what im saying. i believe that youre destined to start losing your athleticism and slow down when you start hitting a certain age. working out and being in great shape can help with this marginally, but it is still bound to happen.

what im saying is now a days with modern medicine and surgery, guys are able to play at a high level up until they start losing athleticism and slowing down. mileage isnt so much of a factor anymore.
I think both matter but its impossible to know which is better gauge of father time and his effect on athletes. Like Wilt was technically still young by todays standards when he retired, but all those extra needless minutes he racked up aged him more dramatically. But that was a lifetime ago, so many advances in medicine, equipment, stadium flooring etc... that its probably more important to be young.

JasonJohnHorn
01-17-2013, 02:26 PM
It's not age, it's the cumulative effect of all those steps taken on the court, all the running and jumping.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Very well articulated, but the comment "it's not age" is a little off. Age does also play a factor. There are guys with relatively healthy joints who simply cannot maintain their conditioning because their muscles and such do not respond the same way they used. Stockton is a great example. He could still play at the level he played at shortly after his prime all the way until 40, but he couldn't maintain it as long, so his minutes were cut in half. He needed more time to rest. This was just his body naturally aging. He stayed in good shape, and his joints and such were still working fine, but the human body just cannot maintain certain activities for extended periods of time after a certain age (and this varies from person to person).

But yes, everything else you are spot on about.

JasonJohnHorn
01-17-2013, 02:30 PM
I agree with the sentiments here, but I think Wilt is a bad example. His numbers only decreased with age because he got onto a roster with three other big scorers (West, Baylor and Goodrich) and the scoring loading was no longer heaped on him as it was with the Warriors and 76ers (and his coach didn't like running plays for him). Wilt though was still the best rebounder in the league and post a season average in rebounding that has to be matched, and he did that at the age of 36, when most players are well past their prime. Had they run more plays for him, he would have been able to score 30+ a game without much of a problem. Couples with that he had a very successful volleyball career after his NBA career that lasted several season.

But yes, guys who log more minutes early in their career will find their joints give out earlier than they would of had they played fewer minutes.

ILLUSIONIST^248
01-17-2013, 02:40 PM
This might be your worst thread of all time.

this

Hawkeye15
01-17-2013, 03:41 PM
Aging is not what the OP is denying.


While I mentioned age, it isn't what I am speaking of. Kobe is an outlier. To the majority of human basketball players, playing 1450 games, with high minutes, will take a toll on their bodies, and they will not perform the same unless they take a reduced minute role. I think the players that adapt their games as their athletic ability slides is important, as is obviously staying in peak shape, which Kobe has done. But he is seriously an outlier. Not many players at his number of games played are going to be effective at 39 mpg, with MVP consideration numbers.