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View Full Version : Lionel Hollins takes shot at John Hollinger for trying to trade Rudy Gay



Fresno
01-15-2013, 08:00 PM
"The reality is that we have a very versatile small forward that is 6'9. There aren't many guys out there like that. He can post up, shoot from the perimeter [and] he can attack the basket. He defends LeBron James, he defendsKevin Durant and all these guys that are tall, and strong, and quick and athletic. We don't have another player on our rsoter with that versatility, and most teams don't. That's the bottom line."



You hear people say that Rudy and Zach can't play together and they don't fit. They do fit! They need each other. Zach needs Rudy'sversatility, and Rudy needs Zach to post up and get rebounds.

"We get hung up on statistics a little too much, and I think that's a bad trait all over the league that's taken place. And the media has done it because it's easy to go to the stats to make a point or to build up a player or tear down a player. Just the analyzing, I see it every time listening to talk show radio. You've got guys spouting off stat after stat after stat. The bottom line is going out and contributing to your team for winning."




"Analytics has a place. It can't be the be all end all. I'm still trying to figure out when the Oakland Athletics won a championship with all the analytics they have. It takes talent. We had a guy a few years ago that was sending me emails about different lineup combinations, and he was saying, 'this lineup should be on the court a lot more because they're the most effective.' So, then you coach that lineup and keep them on the floor for 40 minutes. I'm going to stay with the lineups that I have on the floor. No matter what anyone wants to say, there are players that get it done in the last six minutes, they're players that do it in the first quarter. When it comes down to big shots, there's only a few guys that will take those shots, want to take those shots, have the bravery and courage to take them. Because there's a lot of criticism when you miss a shot. You have to be mentally tough and courageous to take those shots at the end of the game."

:ouch:

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/1/11/3866592/lionel-hollins-memphis-grizzlies-interview-2012

I actually agree with Hollins that there is more to basketball than just analytics, which is why Hollinger seems interested in moving both Gay & Randolph.

He's been a huge critic of both players value.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 08:04 PM
Gay is kinda not that special of a player.

PacersForLife
01-15-2013, 08:06 PM
I agree with him. Basketball is not all about statistics.

KingsOfQueens
01-15-2013, 08:08 PM
Rudy Gay and is one of the most underrated players in the league IMO. Hollins is 100% spot on.

Chronz
01-15-2013, 08:10 PM
So salary has nothing to do with their inquiries? I find that hard to believe regardless of what the coach says.

rocket
01-15-2013, 08:10 PM
Rudy Gay and is one of the most underrated players in the league IMO. Hollins is 100% spot on.

I actually think the opposite of your post.

Chronz
01-15-2013, 08:16 PM
Rudy gay being overpaid has nothing to with being undervalued to his team. That said, if someone has to move which from what Ive read and would assume considering the teams finances, Gay would be the most logical fit.

I know the coach wants to keep the gang together but hes not the one paying the money.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:24 PM
Rudy gay being overpaid has nothing to with being undervalued to his team. That said, if someone has to move which from what Ive read and would assume considering the teams finances, Gay would be the most logical fit.

I know the coach wants to keep the gang together but hes not the one paying the money.

exactly right. The Grizz will need to do something to clear salary. That means a painful move many times, getting rid of a good player. Hollins is thinking like a coach, not a GM or owner, you know, the ones who pay the tax...

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:25 PM
By the way, obviously this will turn into a pro/anti stats argument, when Hollins is not understanding his front office is needing to shed a salary. Would he prefer to get rid of ZBo, or Marc?

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:26 PM
Rudy Gay and is one of the most underrated players in the league IMO. Hollins is 100% spot on.

He really isn't that good.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 08:26 PM
Rudy Gay and is one of the most underrated players in the league IMO. Hollins is 100% spot on.

How is he underrated? He's a scorer, who doesn't score efficiently.

If they could get Beal and whatever else Washington would give up they'd be idiots not to do so. Especially considering their financial situations.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 08:27 PM
He took a pot shot at the A's. **** him.

seikou8
01-15-2013, 08:28 PM
exactly right. The Grizz will need to do something to clear salary. That means a painful move many times, getting rid of a good player. Hollins is thinking like a coach, not a GM or owner, you know, the ones who pay the tax...

why blow it up when you have a shot in the west you can do it in offseason this team is good

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 08:29 PM
It is not blowing it up. He is trying to improve. He is not rebuilding. Just retooling.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:32 PM
why blow it up when you have a shot in the west you can do it in offseason this team is good

I imagine that is what happens, but why is it a bad thing to gauge interest during the season? And 18 ppg on average efficiency can be replaced. More looks inside, and whomever they acquire can get the rest.

tredigs
01-15-2013, 08:35 PM
I'm still trying to figure out when this Memphis team won a title.

And you have a top ten payroll, Hollins. Don't compare yourself to the A's.

RandyRandy
01-15-2013, 08:38 PM
He really isn't that good.

What does that even mean?
Do you ever watch the Grizzlies play? I cannot believe all the hate this dude gets on here.

seikou8
01-15-2013, 08:38 PM
I imagine that is what happens, but why is it a bad thing to gauge interest during the season? And 18 ppg on average efficiency can be replaced. More looks inside, and whomever they acquire can get the rest.

true

bucketss
01-15-2013, 08:40 PM
lololol at rudy gay being underrated.

Vinylman
01-15-2013, 08:40 PM
It is not blowing it up. He is trying to improve. He is not rebuilding. Just retooling.

That might be what they are thinking right now but ultimately it will be a blow up

seikou8
01-15-2013, 08:40 PM
What does that even mean?
Do you ever watch the Grizzlies play? I cannot believe all the hate this dude gets on here.

true i starting to notce it but its not even close to westbrook hate my goodness you would think westbrook ****ed these posters girls

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:42 PM
What does that even mean?
Do you ever watch the Grizzlies play? I cannot believe all the hate this dude gets on here.

yep, seen him play for years. He is a high volume scorer, who gets it on average efficiency. This year, actually well below average efficiency. He makes a lot of money, to be a replaceable wing scorer, on a team with a payroll that it won't be able to sustain.

BullsFTW
01-15-2013, 08:42 PM
I strongly agree with Hollins. Gay is overpaid, but he's not the only one in this league. I'm a huge believer in intangibles, Deng's PER is about 15 but if you take out Deng from the current Bulls, we'd be below .500 right now. Sometimes it's the little things that makes a huge difference on the court. Basketball players understand this, stats geeks don't.

tp13baby
01-15-2013, 08:43 PM
Then what is it about? Its about performing. A guy that doesn't get on a stat sheet doesn't help his team much. Am I Wrong? Rudy Gay is a good player, but damn all sports, stats are important.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 08:46 PM
He should shoot less. Other than that, he is fine. Elite wing defender.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:46 PM
I strongly agree with Hollins. Gay is overpaid, but for he's not the only one in this league. I'm a huge believer in intangibles, Deng's PER is about 15 but if you take out Deng from the current Bulls, we'd be below .500 right now. Sometimes it's the little things that makes a huge difference on the court. Basketball players understand this, stats geeks don't.

But Deng's value is more than just throwing up 15 shots a night. He is a capable shut down defender. Look, nobody is saying Gay isn't important to his teams play. What this situation is about, is the Grizz are not the Lakers or Knicks. They can't afford to just pay huge luxury taxes, the ones that will be coming for "repeat offenders" in the new CBA. They need to cut bait. Gay is the low hanging fruit.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 08:46 PM
Well, that's because of lack of depth.

tredigs
01-15-2013, 08:47 PM
I strongly agree with Hollins. Gay is overpaid, but he's not the only one in this league. I'm a huge believer in intangibles, Deng's PER is about 15 but if you take out Deng from the current Bulls, we'd be below .500 right now. Sometimes it's the little things that makes a huge difference on the court. Basketball players understand this, stats geeks don't.

Deng's best contributions are on the defensive end, and anybody with any knowledge of stats knows that PER is both limited overall and almost entirely useless as a defensive gauge. There are far more predictive stats for a players worth, and Deng's show well on the defensive end.

Anyway, like I've said for years, it's a mix of high knowledge of both court/player feel and the right understanding of stats that ends up in the best situation for the team.

But your PER argument is dumb. There's nobody in the league, even Hollinger himself, making decisions based solely off of someones PER.

D-Leethal
01-15-2013, 08:47 PM
I imagine that is what happens, but why is it a bad thing to gauge interest during the season? And 18 ppg on average efficiency can be replaced. More looks inside, and whomever they acquire can get the rest.

Its not about subtracting his PPG on X% and replacing it with PPG on Y%. Its about the dynamic he provides to the team that they need going against guys like Durant/LeBron. These are things stats won't tell you but obviously the coach recognizes it.

I understand the salary argument though, Hollins is thinking like a coach, owner is thinking like a guy who pays the bills. Hollins himself admitted he's rarely ever spoken a word to the new owner so I wouldn't be surprised if he's not privvy to the upper management gameplan with the team they just bought. Hollins might not even be part of that gameplan.

I think its a shame, this team could get hot a make a run at the finals. They beat SA a couple years back and took OKC to 7 without Gay. As a coach I am sure these reports make him sick to his stomach.

LakersA's49ers
01-15-2013, 08:48 PM
Rudy Gay is the way overpaid version of Andre Iguodala

tredigs
01-15-2013, 08:50 PM
Rudy Gay is the way overpaid version of Andre Iguodala

Who is way, way worse defensively?

Rudy Gay's not a great player. He's a willing big shot taker, which does absolutely have its moments, but overall you could find a much better fit for their team that would ultimately give you more salary space to be creative. I respect Hollins backing up his players, but I don't fully respect how high he is on Rudy. They'd be a flat out better team with Iggy.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 08:51 PM
Rudy Gay is the way overpaid version of Andre Iguodala

Meh. Iggy is an all-world defender and a much better passer (though he's having a down year). Iggy, when on, is a far more well-rounded and just a flat out better player.

Gay can rebound well for his position, but that's about it. He's a decent scorer...but you don't need advanced stats to see how inefficient he's been.

18 points a game on 17 shots?!?! More than half the league could probably do that.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 08:53 PM
Its not about subtracting his PPG on X% and replacing it with PPG on Y%.

Sure it is. Replacing his impact in the game is what you try and do, for cheaper, or more flexibility. But replacing 18 ppg on 17 shots a game is much easier than you think.


Its about the dynamic he provides to the team that they need going against guys like Durant/LeBron. These are things stats won't tell you but obviously the coach recognizes it.

Well, they can tell us a lot, but I understand what you are trying to say, and that is when LeBron comes to town, he focuses on stopping Gay, limiting his impact elsewhere on defense for a night. But in reality, wouldn't the Grizz be better off getting more looks for their interior players, and getting a young talent and spot up shooter to replace the expensive Gay? He is not worth going into severe luxury tax penalties for, and is a replaceable player on a contending team.


I understand the salary argument though, Hollins is thinking like a coach, owner is thinking like a guy who pays the bills. Hollins himself admitted he's rarely ever spoken a word to the new owner so I wouldn't be surprised if he's not privvy to the upper management gameplan with the team they just bought. Hollins might not even be part of that gameplan.

And I think that is the directive driving this trade situation. You bring in an analytics guy, tell him, "we need to reduce salary, period", and ask him what he thinks. Of course Gay is the one coming up.


I think its a shame, this team could get hot a make a run at the finals. They beat SA a couple years back and took OKC to 7 without Gay.

Like I said, I honestly don't believe they even make a trade this season involving Gay, they are probably just putting out feelers, to see if they can get a great deal back for him that will allow them to remain as competitive as they are currently, and lets them shed salary this summer. If they don't find one, they simply wait until the offseason, and address it then.

valade16
01-15-2013, 08:55 PM
Can any other player on the Grizzlies create their own shot on the Perimeter? If the Griz trade Gay it's imperative they get back someone like Gay who can do that, otherwise a big dimension of offense disappears...

BullsFTW
01-15-2013, 08:55 PM
Then what is it about? Its about performing. A guy that doesn't get on a stat sheet doesn't help his team much. Am I Wrong? Rudy Gay is a good player, but damn all sports, stats are important.

Yes it is, but stats doesn't tell the whole story. His versatility alone makes a huge difference. Teams have to prepare for Gay because his presence alone cannot be ignored. He's an athletic wing who can create and shoot. This opens up opportunities for his teammates. Him being able to guard huge SF's like Durant and LeBron is huge. Obviously no one will stop those two, but to slow them down and keep the game close is important. Chemistry is another thing. This Grizz team has great chemistry and balance each other a lot, and goes to show all guys in the locker room are all-in. You take one key player out, suddenly the mood in the locker room changes. Hollins knows how much of an impact Gay provides on and off the court, Hollinger does not.

A steal, a block, an assist and a rebound will appear in a stat sheet. Challenging shots, proper defensive rotations, setting screens, helping out on defense, boxing out, going with the flow of the offense do not appear on stat sheets.

BullsFTW
01-15-2013, 08:59 PM
But Deng's value is more than just throwing up 15 shots a night. He is a capable shut down defender. Look, nobody is saying Gay isn't important to his teams play. What this situation is about, is the Grizz are not the Lakers or Knicks. They can't afford to just pay huge luxury taxes, the ones that will be coming for "repeat offenders" in the new CBA. They need to cut bait. Gay is the low hanging fruit.

Well them cutting the bait will dramatically change the dynamics of the Grizz team. If they want to stay relevant they should keep Rudy Gay. He fits in nicely in a front-line that lacks athleticism without him. You remove him and add a slower Paul Pierce, then there goes your defensive versatility.

D-Leethal
01-15-2013, 09:00 PM
Can any other player on the Grizzlies create their own shot on the Perimeter? If the Griz trade Gay it's imperative they get back someone like Gay who can do that, otherwise a big dimension of offense disappears...

Trading Gay wouldn't be a huge deal if they didn't let OJ walk.

I will say, if cutting cap is a necessary evil with no way around it, Gay is the guy I trade. The bread and butter of that team is the Zbo-Gasol connection in the paint. They already proved they can go deep in the playoffs without Gay.

Would be silly to not trade him for Beal/Ariza because I think you could not miss a beat now and be way better in the future. Ariza gives them the defensive versatility you lose with Gay.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 09:00 PM
Can any other player on the Grizzlies create their own shot on the Perimeter? If the Griz trade Gay it's imperative they get back someone like Gay who can do that, otherwise a big dimension of offense disappears...

or you just make adjustments to your offensive game plan. Hollins is paid a lot of money to coach basketball.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 09:02 PM
Well them cutting the bait will dramatically change the dynamics of the Grizz team. If they want to stay relevant they should keep Rudy Gay. He fits in nicely in a front-line that lacks athleticism without him. You remove him and add a slower Paul Pierce, then there goes your defensive versatility.

why would your defensive versatility go anywhere if Gay leaves? He is an average defender. You simply make adjustments with who you bring in. Whether that be more inside/outside, or spotting your SF in the corner versus trying to run offense through him, etc.

Gay has a PER of 15, TS% of 48%. He is an average defender, average rebounder for his position, and is having his worst season in 4 years, individually. He makes a ton of money. The whole point here is, the Grizz know they need to shed salary. He is the obvious choice.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 09:08 PM
Bottom line: they need to cut salary pretty badly. Among their 4 highest paid players (ZBo, Marc, Conley and Gay) he is both the worst player of the 4 and has the worst contract. He's the obvious guy to move.

Especially because it looks like he actually, for whatever reason, has some value.

They're in a terrible spot financially.

BullsFTW
01-15-2013, 09:09 PM
why would your defensive versatility go anywhere if Gay leaves? He is an average defender. You simply make adjustments with who you bring in. Whether that be more inside/outside, or spotting your SF in the corner versus trying to run offense through him, etc.

Gay has a PER of 15, TS% of 48%. He is an average defender, average rebounder for his position, and is having his worst season in 4 years, individually. He makes a ton of money. The whole point here is, the Grizz know they need to shed salary. He is the obvious choice.

He provides length that causes players to adjust their shots.

Gay having the ability to get into the basket changes the opposing team's defensive schemes.

If the Grizzlies believe saving money is more important (because Gay makes a couple more millions than other elite SF's) than winning then that's their choice

3RDASYSTEM
01-15-2013, 09:09 PM
People got to realize its hard to match supreme athleticsm+supreme skill all wrapped in 1 coming straight into NBA
Bet nobody on here can name me a handful in history who has, and im talking SF/SG/PG types

ALCINDOR/HAKEEM had the skill but i wouldnt put them in the supremeathletic field of a SHAQ/WILT,just like i wouldnt put them in the skill category of the former....DROB is closest far as equally both, but SHAQ/WILT were so physically gifted, that was almost all they needed, but they both were willing(good) passers so thats a skill right psd?

This is a pure salary dump move by a 'small' market type squad and this has CUBAN/MAVS written all over it,especially since i heard he was willing to take back salary and hes 100pct making a move...according to CUBAN himself


If not MAVS then i can see BOS/PHI trying to get involved
GAY is who he was from day1(supreme athlete who improved his floor game since inception), him having 5 rings wouldnt change a damn thang about that either, neither would his PER

Even if he was avg 24ppg on 16shots per game HOLLINGER would still have to make a salary dump move because they cant handle the luxury tax, poor small market teams....1yr competing, the next yr moving core pieces because scared money never win no titles

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 09:12 PM
He provides length that causes players to adjust their shots.

Gay having the ability to get into the basket changes the opposing team's defensive schemes.

If the Grizzlies believe saving money is more important (because Gay makes a couple more millions than other elite SF's) than winning then that's their choice

So since he is tall for his position, you pay him that money?

Gay doesn't even attack the rim in the half court setting much, which is what Memphis runs.

You are missing the point. Its not at the expense of winning. They are obviously just gauging offers, not looking to shell him off for salary relief.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 09:13 PM
He provides length that causes players to adjust their shots.

Gay having the ability to get into the basket changes the opposing team's defensive schemes.

If the Grizzlies believe saving money is more important (because Gay makes a couple more millions than other elite SF's) than winning then that's their choice

Plenty of SFs have his length. Plenty of SFs are actually above average defenders too.

He doesn't even attack the rim much

Thing is, he's the 20th highest paid player in the NBA, the 3rd/4th highest paid SF..and is arguably the 4th best player on that team.

There will be a drop off if they trade him, but it probably won't be much, and the salary saved makes it so worth it.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 09:13 PM
Bottom line: they need to cut salary pretty badly. Among their 4 highest paid players (ZBo, Marc, Conley and Gay) he is both the worst player of the 4 and has the worst contract. He's the obvious guy to move.

Especially because it looks like he actually, for whatever reason, has some value.

They're in a terrible spot financially.

Really, it's this simple.

JJ_JKidd
01-15-2013, 09:23 PM
:ouch:

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/1/11/3866592/lionel-hollins-memphis-grizzlies-interview-2012

I actually agree with Hollins that there is more to basketball than just analytics, which is why Hollinger seems interested in moving both Gay & Randolph.

He's been a huge critic of both players value.

This stat fool is clearly out of his mind.

valade16
01-15-2013, 09:24 PM
or you just make adjustments to your offensive game plan. Hollins is paid a lot of money to coach basketball.

Adjustments are fine and all but most successfull teams have at least 1 player that can adequately create on the perimeter.

BullsFTW
01-15-2013, 09:29 PM
So since he is tall for his position, you pay him that money?

Gay doesn't even attack the rim in the half court setting much, which is what Memphis runs.

You are missing the point. Its not at the expense of winning. They are obviously just gauging offers, not looking to shell him off for salary relief.

Yes length makes a difference in this league, and Gay is also talented.

I'm not sure if there are any other players at SF who's available who can provide the same presence and production as Gay with lesser contract.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 09:29 PM
Adjustments are fine and all but most successfull teams have at least 1 player that can adequately create on the perimeter.

Shot creation many times is what gets GM's in trouble. They routinely overpay guys like Gay for that exact reason.

b@llhog24
01-15-2013, 09:31 PM
Adjustments are fine and all but most successfull teams have at least 1 player that can adequately create on the perimeter.

Then why are 6 of the top ten players ever Pf/Cs?

Bill
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem

--23--
01-15-2013, 09:37 PM
Then why are 6 of the top ten players ever Pf/Cs?

Bill
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem

I'm pretty sure 5 out of them six players also had a player that can create their own shot on the perimeter, They were the main guys on their teams though.

BullsFTW
01-15-2013, 09:39 PM
Plenty of SFs have his length. Plenty of SFs are actually above average defenders too.

He doesn't even attack the rim much

Thing is, he's the 20th highest paid player in the NBA, the 3rd/4th highest paid SF..and is arguably the 4th best player on that team.

There will be a drop off if they trade him, but it probably won't be much, and the salary saved makes it so worth it.

This is my point, and I think the drop off is a bit more than your assumptions. I just don't think it's worth throwing away the good thing that's happening in Memphis right now.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2013, 09:39 PM
give me an offense that moves the ball, has shooters, and strong interior players, while having an elite defense, over a shot creator with a TS% waaaaaaaaaaay under league average any day. It means he doesn't get to the line, doesn't press the defense, and is actually making the other teams defense successful, forcing a long 2 attempt when he shoots.

Fresno
01-15-2013, 09:45 PM
Would be silly to not trade him for Beal/Ariza because I think you could not miss a beat now and be way better in the future. Ariza gives them the defensive versatility you lose with Gay.

So where does the perimeter scoring come from?

Beal? A rookie jumpshooter?

Ariza has been absolutely horrible for several years now. He is not the same player from the Lakers finals runs in 08 but since he's been in relative obscurity since leaving people only remember him as the athletic, defensive minded 22 year old wing. Now he's 27, injury prone and at $7 Million a year that wouldn't make much sense to bring him in to attempt to replace what Gay offers on both ends of the floor at SF.

Tony Allen doesn't have enough size to guard SF's at 6'4 although hes a great defnder.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 09:47 PM
You are all too stuck on the immediate short term.

The Grizz aren't going to give Gay away, but for the right package, like what that Washington trade could have been, they'd be foolish not to.

Yes, they'd see a small drop off this year (I'm not even convinced bc of how inefficient he can be), but in the long run trading him, assuming the get the right package, is a smart move.

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 09:48 PM
1 Hollinger is a Moron ( enough proof now mr Chronz that it was hollinger who started the thing?).

2 In general i agree with hollings, there is MUCH more than stats to basketball.


3 In the SPECIFIC case of GAY, i have to give the reason to the moron hollinger, gay is overpayed and overatted as hell.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 09:52 PM
1 Hollinger is a Moron ( enough proof now mr Chronz that it was hollinger who started the thing?).

2 In general i agree with hollings, there is MUCH more than stats to basketball.


3 In the SPECIFIC case of GAY, i have to give the reason to the moron hollinger, gay is overpayed and overatted as hell.

People who are ignorant to stats don't like Hollinger.

Alayla
01-15-2013, 09:55 PM
Why throw a public fit about rudy gay? lol seems silly to me its not like hes that good.

Fresno
01-15-2013, 09:56 PM
This is my point, and I think the drop off is a bit more than your assumptions. I just don't think it's worth throwing away the good thing that's happening in Memphis right now.

Rudy Gay & Randolph's names have been mentioned in trade rumors and I wouldn't be surprised to see both gone during the offseason if they dont make a move for either one at the deadline.

You trade Rudy Gay now and you're pretty much conceding you dont want to make a Finals run to avoid the tax bill that comes later. Then Randolph and his huge salary would have no purpose being left behind since he'll be 32 and a gradual decline will continue for him.

Maybe Hollins would be gone or leave too??

I also do understand the strategy of Hollinger being brought in as an executive with the smarts to transition Memphis from this GrindHouse style of play with big money non-superstars to figuring out a cheaper, more efficient team around Conley at PG and Gasol at C. They do at least have a good start there having their PG & C positions filled with good players at fair market value.

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 09:56 PM
People who are ignorant to stats don't like Hollinger.

and why exactly do you infere that im ignorant to stats?


I just have kept track of how Hollingers **** predictions ends up being wrong time after time after time after time after time for the last few years.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 10:00 PM
and why exactly do you infere that im ignorant to stats?


I just have kept track of how Hollingers **** predictions ends up being wrong time after time after time after time after time for the last few years.

That's funny because Hollinger has been proven to have the most accurate predictions. And if you'd like to know the rate, it's 92 percent.

Stop with the selective memory.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 10:03 PM
Most people who don't like Hollinger don't like him because what his work says and stats suggest doesn't support what they want to hear. Kobe/Lakers fans often tend to be major culprits of this.

Hollinger doesn't hate your favorite player or your favorite team...but his stats (which attempt to have no bias) might.


Hollinger also knows that stats do indeed only tell part of the story. He understands how analytics are valuable, but his knowledge of the game far exceeds that as well.

He's not going to be looking to move players simply because their PER sucks...there's far more to it and he knows it. Most people supporting Hollins here don't get that. It's more than just "advanced stats".

Chronz
01-15-2013, 10:05 PM
1 Hollinger is a Moron ( enough proof now mr Chronz that it was hollinger who started the thing?).
I dont see where the coach talks about the financial side of the deal so no.


2 In general i agree with hollings, there is MUCH more than stats to basketball.
Hollinger agrees with that as well



3 In the SPECIFIC case of GAY, i have to give the reason to the moron hollinger, gay is overpayed and overatted as hell.
So your saying the moron is right and the coach is wrong? WTF?

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 10:07 PM
Most people who don't like Hollinger don't like him because what his work says and stats suggest doesn't support what they want to hear. Kobe/Lakers fans often tend to be major culprits of this.

Hollinger doesn't hate your favorite player or your favorite team...but his stats (which attempt to have no bias) might.


Hollinger also knows that stats do indeed only tell part of the story. He understands how analytics are valuable, but his knowledge of the game far exceeds that as well.

He's not going to be looking to move players simply because their PER sucks...there's far more to it and he knows it. Most people supporting Hollins here don't get that. It's more than just "advanced stats".

Curious you mention this because his numbers actually Raise Pau and Take Kobe Down.

and i STILL dont like him nor believe hi,.

Fresno
01-15-2013, 10:08 PM
You are all too stuck on the immediate short term.

The Grizz aren't going to give Gay away, but for the right package, like what that Washington trade could have been, they'd be foolish not to.

Yes, they'd see a small drop off this year (I'm not even convinced bc of how inefficient he can be), but in the long run trading him, assuming the get the right package, is a smart move.
A short term setback could represent 2 or 3 seasons but with players like Tony Allen & Zach Randolph are 30+ and wanting to be on a contender to finish out their remaining years. What would they be waiting for? With this current core thats been together for 4 seasons now its either going to be this season when you reach a Championship or you blow it all up to cut down on an investment that isn't paying off. Try to retool and compete again with OKC and LA with a new identity in a few seasons.

In the long run you're not just trading Rudy Gay but losing Randolph, Allen, & definetly Hollins.

I posted above that Hollinger is there to transition Memphis out of their trademarked Grindhouse style of play into a new era that is reflective of what ownership wants the team to be. It just amazes me a guy we all poked fun at a basketball geek writing columns on ESPN holds an executive role more powerful than their GM Chris Wallace, according to the Memphis Commercial-Appeal.

ManRam
01-15-2013, 10:10 PM
Curious you mention this because his numbers actually Raise Pau and Take Kobe Down.

and i STILL dont like him nor believe hi,.

Well, you're usually always an outlier.

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 10:11 PM
A short term setback could represent 2 or 3 seasons but with players like Tony Allen & Zach Randolph are 30+ and wanting to be on a contender to finish out their remaining years. What would they be waiting for? With this current core thats been together for 4 seasons now its either going to be this season when you reach a Championship or you blow it all up to cut down on an investment that isn't paying off. Try to retool and compete again with OKC and LA with a new identity in a few seasons.

In the long run you're not just trading Rudy Gay but losing Randolph, Allen, & definetly Hollins.

I posted above that Hollinger is there to transition Memphis out of their trademarked Grindhouse style of play into a new era that is reflective of what ownership wants the team to be. It just amazes me a guy we all poked fun at a basketball geek writing columns on ESPN holds an executive role more powerful than their GM Chris Wallace, according to the Memphis Commercial-Appeal.

And as a result you can be SURE that Marc Asks for a trade too.
His brother did when they started gettig rid of competitive pieces like Battier.

Fresno
01-15-2013, 10:12 PM
Most people who don't like Hollinger don't like him because what his work says and stats suggest doesn't support what they want to hear. Kobe/Lakers fans often tend to be major culprits of this.

Hollinger doesn't hate your favorite player or your favorite team...but his stats (which attempt to have no bias) might.


Hollinger also knows that stats do indeed only tell part of the story. He understands how analytics are valuable, but his knowledge of the game far exceeds that as well.

He's not going to be looking to move players simply because their PER sucks...there's far more to it and he knows it. Most people supporting Hollins here don't get that. It's more than just "advanced stats".

I just support Hollins because I dont want to see this Grizzlies team broken up.

I think they're a very good team as they are.

He's had to replace crucial pieces like Battier & Mayo in consecutive seasons because the previous ownership didn't want to pay luxury taxes to have what would be the best team in the West right now.

If it were my money I'd keep that same core as Grizzlies until the day they retired or asked to leave because one of these years they would breakthrough and reach a NBA Finals just like that Pacers team in 2000.

Fresno
01-15-2013, 10:18 PM
And as a result you can be SURE that Marc Asks for a trade too.
His brother did when they started gettig rid of competitive pieces like Battier.

They might be forced to trade Marc anyways since he'll be a Free Agent not too long down the road.

I definetily envision him & Pau wanting to play together on the same NBA team one day.

Probably the most talented brothers to have ever played in the NBA or in International competition.

Chronz
01-15-2013, 10:19 PM
and why exactly do you infere that im ignorant to stats?


I just have kept track of how Hollingers **** predictions ends up being wrong time after time after time after time after time for the last few years.
How come I dont see you bashing Vegas odds? Or any other analysts? Not being able to accurately predict the future isn't a sign of intelligence. Thats how we know you dont understand stats

Chronz
01-15-2013, 10:21 PM
And as a result you can be SURE that Marc Asks for a trade too.
His brother did when they started gettig rid of competitive pieces like Battier.
Funny you mention that because it was the STAT guys who stole Battier.

Besides they traded Battier because Pau was injured and the team was obviously not contending.

Chronz
01-15-2013, 10:22 PM
They might be forced to trade Marc anyways since he'll be a Free Agent not too long down the road.

I definetily envision him & Pau wanting to play together on the same NBA team one day.

Probably the most talented brothers to have ever played in the NBA or in International competition.
Im pretty sure Marc just resigned, hes not going anywhere.

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 10:22 PM
They might be forced to trade Marc anyways since he'll be a Free Agent not too long down the road.

I definetily envision him & Pau wanting to play together on the same NBA team one day.

Probably the most talented brothers to have ever played in the NBA or in International competition.



Mmm not sure if Gasols> Van Arsdales or Wilkins bros

ManRam
01-15-2013, 10:24 PM
I guess where I differ with some is that I don't think trading Gay equates to "breaking up the Grizzlies".

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 10:25 PM
Im pretty sure Marc just resigned, hes not going anywhere.

he has two more years after this if im not mistaken.

Thats around whn you have to deal your disgrutnled player and have leverage.

If they wait until the expiring year then the player has the " i wont sign back if you trade me to team x" leverage on the situation.

MrfadeawayJB
01-15-2013, 10:27 PM
Of course hollins is going to take rudy's side. Cant blame him for that

Fresno
01-15-2013, 10:32 PM
I guess where I differ with some is that I don't think trading Gay equates to "breaking up the Grizzlies".

Then how far can they hypothetically go out west without him?

I dont see how you can go far pounding the ball inside to Marc & Randolph in the Playoffs nearly every possession without a perimeter scorer to draw some attention and hit shots.

Thats the same thing that knocked Utah out last season relying entirely on their bigs to win them each game.

Its like a opposing team knows a player like Trevor Ariza or Chase Budinger wont score 30 on you unless they have the game of their life, while you still have to gameplan for the threat of Rudy scoring 30 points because he can hit the shots they cant.

nolafan33
01-15-2013, 10:38 PM
Rudy Gay and is one of the most underrated players in the league IMO. Hollins is 100% spot on.

He's one of the most overrated in the league. With two great post threats and a solid PG he's still inefficient, he doesn't get to the line, and he's not that great of a defender.

sep11ie
01-15-2013, 10:40 PM
Rudy Gay is the way overpaid version of Andre Iguodala

So he's an overpaid version of an overpaid player?

BALLER R
01-15-2013, 11:01 PM
I've been saying that on here for how long. Basketball is more than just stats.

nickdymez
01-15-2013, 11:04 PM
The advanced stat crew came in full force to take up for their god Hollinger. When In actuality, ADVANCED STATS HAVE NO PLACE IN BASKETBALL!!!!! I mean, just reading the first page you see all the advanced stat crew saying Gay is overrated, just to make Holinger not look like an *******. One guy even said that Lionel Hollins doesn't understand. Comical

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:06 PM
Gay is kinda not that special of a player.

Maybe not for you. He is for us.

Avenged
01-15-2013, 11:09 PM
Gay is just not that good, get over it.

Randolph on the other hand..

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 11:12 PM
Then how far can they hypothetically go out west without him?

I dont see how you can go far pounding the ball inside to Marc & Randolph in the Playoffs nearly every possession without a perimeter scorer to draw some attention and hit shots.

Thats the same thing that knocked Utah out last season relying entirely on their bigs to win them each game.

Its like a opposing team knows a player like Trevor Ariza or Chase Budinger wont score 30 on you unless they have the game of their life, while you still have to gameplan for the threat of Rudy scoring 30 points because he can hit the shots they cant.

The goal is to get a perimeter shooter I don't see the argument.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 11:13 PM
The advanced stat crew came in full force to take up for their god Hollinger. When In actuality, ADVANCED STATS HAVE NO PLACE IN BASKETBALL!!!!! I mean, just reading the first page you see all the advanced stat crew saying Gay is overrated, just to make Holinger not look like an *******. One guy even said that Lionel Hollins doesn't understand. Comical

Every NBA team uses advanced stats.

nickdymez
01-15-2013, 11:14 PM
Every NBA team uses advanced stats.

For absolutely nothing. No one cares.

Gators123
01-15-2013, 11:16 PM
For absolutely nothing. No one cares.


You're right. They're spending millions of dollars for ***** and giggles.

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:18 PM
That might be what they are thinking right now but ultimately it will be a blow up

You are right, sir. They have ****ed with their heads so much right now they can't punch their way out of a paper bag. Stat that, Hollinger

ManRam
01-15-2013, 11:19 PM
For absolutely nothing. No one cares.

Except almost every front office...including your team's. What do you think team's are doing to evaluate talent? Flipping coins and clocking 40 yard dash times? Hahaha.


I don't need advanced stats to tell me that a "great scorer" who is scoring 18 points on 17 shots isn't really that great.

4th best player on the team...and has the worst contract. He's expendable. Hollinger and the rest of the front office gets that. The team is in cap hell...he's gotta be the first one to go. It's not because of his PER. It's not because of his PPP in post up chances. It's not necessarily any of that.

D-Leethal
01-15-2013, 11:23 PM
give me an offense that moves the ball, has shooters, and strong interior players, while having an elite defense, over a shot creator with a TS% waaaaaaaaaaay under league average any day. It means he doesn't get to the line, doesn't press the defense, and is actually making the other teams defense successful, forcing a long 2 attempt when he shoots.

Eventually, every team is going to have that matchup where it comes down to hitting tough shots in iso situations. Those 3 point shooters and ball movers aren't getting clean looks against every team in this league. If you rely on double teams in the post there will be bigs who don't need a double. If you rely on pick and rolls collapsing the D there will be teams like Bulls who will completely shut it down and not have to help on shooters. Those ball movers and high % shooters become rendered useless.

You need a Kobe, a Pierce, a Dirk, a Wade, a LeBron, a guy who can take a hit those low % shots you stat heads hate because a good playoff defense is going to force you into those shots and without a guy who can create them, your not getting a shot off let alone getting a bucket. There is a reason every title team in history had a guy who could create on the perimeter in iso situations, at the end of shot clocks when the first,second and third options come up dry, and hit tough shots like the guys I listed above. Most of them thrive in the mid range which is the stat heads enemy.


So where does the perimeter scoring come from?

Beal? A rookie jumpshooter?

Ariza has been absolutely horrible for several years now. He is not the same player from the Lakers finals runs in 08 but since he's been in relative obscurity since leaving people only remember him as the athletic, defensive minded 22 year old wing. Now he's 27, injury prone and at $7 Million a year that wouldn't make much sense to bring him in to attempt to replace what Gay offers on both ends of the floor at SF.

Tony Allen doesn't have enough size to guard SF's at 6'4 although hes a great defnder.

I just threw that out there because it was rumored. Beal is a stud prospect. Hes a guy who can net you a Rudy Gay. He could have netted JHarden. Dwill got traded for Favors, same deal. I think Beal could be what OJ Mayo was to them 2 years ago when they beat the Spurs and took OKC to 7 games without Rudy Gay. Thats enough of a perimeter threat when you have ZBo who can get you buckets from anywhere 18 feet in.

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:29 PM
People who are ignorant to stats don't like Hollinger.

Nope, I love stats that make sense; that are reproducible; that have some science behind them. This is created BS and I DO NOT LIKE THE HELL THEY ARE PUTTING THIS VERY GOOD TEAM THROUGH

Vinylman
01-15-2013, 11:30 PM
Rudy Gay & Randolph's names have been mentioned in trade rumors and I wouldn't be surprised to see both gone during the offseason if they dont make a move for either one at the deadline.

You trade Rudy Gay now and you're pretty much conceding you dont want to make a Finals run to avoid the tax bill that comes later. Then Randolph and his huge salary would have no purpose being left behind since he'll be 32 and a gradual decline will continue for him.

Maybe Hollins would be gone or leave too??

I also do understand the strategy of Hollinger being brought in as an executive with the smarts to transition Memphis from this GrindHouse style of play with big money non-superstars to figuring out a cheaper, more efficient team around Conley at PG and Gasol at C. They do at least have a good start there having their PG & C positions filled with good players at fair market value.

HUH????????

You are gonna send the message out to players in the league that you are gonna blow up a WC team that could be a 4 seed to save money and think you will build around Mark Gasol... you do realize he is only under contract for 2 more years after this right? Why would he stay? or at a minimum not ask for a max deal?

Or are you saying you would rebuild through the draft or get equal value for Gay and Zach in trades when salaries have to match? I don't think so

Again, this is a slippery slope to a total Do Over... this is not baseball where you can get a palyer for 1/5 the salary to produce like Gay or Randolph...

This situation is a case study in what is wrong with the NBA... to many teams chasing to little talent which forces them to overpay in the FA market... the only move that will solve the dilemna of the small market teams is contraction

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 11:32 PM
They aren't rebuilding, they are trying to improve. They want to move Gay for pieces they think will make them better or net stud prospects like Barnes or Beal.

Vinylman
01-15-2013, 11:37 PM
Then how far can they hypothetically go out west without him?

I dont see how you can go far pounding the ball inside to Marc & Randolph in the Playoffs nearly every possession without a perimeter scorer to draw some attention and hit shots.

Thats the same thing that knocked Utah out last season relying entirely on their bigs to win them each game.

Its like a opposing team knows a player like Trevor Ariza or Chase Budinger wont score 30 on you unless they have the game of their life, while you still have to gameplan for the threat of Rudy scoring 30 points because he can hit the shots they cant.

what these guys don't realize is that the memphis team that won without Gay had battier and Mayo...

they ain't got **** now on the perimeter... sure conley might be improved but is Zbo or marc really better?

Moving Gay eventually forces a blow up

If they just wanted to avoid the tax this year they would ship speights out for nothing

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:37 PM
A short term setback could represent 2 or 3 seasons but with players like Tony Allen & Zach Randolph are 30+ and wanting to be on a contender to finish out their remaining years. What would they be waiting for? With this current core thats been together for 4 seasons now its either going to be this season when you reach a Championship or you blow it all up to cut down on an investment that isn't paying off. Try to retool and compete again with OKC and LA with a new identity in a few seasons.

In the long run you're not just trading Rudy Gay but losing Randolph, Allen, & definetly Hollins.

I posted above that Hollinger is there to transition Memphis out of their trademarked Grindhouse style of play into a new era that is reflective of what ownership wants the team to be. It just amazes me a guy we all poked fun at a basketball geek writing columns on ESPN holds an executive role more powerful than their GM Chris Wallace, according to the Memphis Commercial-Appeal.

Yes and they had an interview with Hollinger on local TV tonight and didn't catch it. If they replay it at 10p, I'll post. It LOOKED like he was trying to defend himself.

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:39 PM
And as a result you can be SURE that Marc Asks for a trade too.
His brother did when they started gettig rid of competitive pieces like Battier.

Unfortunately this is true

ManRam
01-15-2013, 11:40 PM
I'm beating a dead horse so I'm done after this. But..


I really don't think the crux of this has anything to do with "advanced stats". I really think the bulk of it has to do with finances. I know it's Hollinger so this will always be assumed, and I'm sure he is turned off by Gay's relative inefficiency, but I wouldn't be stunned if even the least statistically-oriented and most turned-of-by-analytics franchise would be looking to shop Gay too. Financially they aren't sitting pretty, and he is the guy who it makes most sense to trade.

b@llhog24
01-15-2013, 11:42 PM
Gay is just not that good, get over it.

Randolph on the other hand..

+1


Nope, I love stats that make sense; that are reproducible; that have some science behind them. This is created BS and I DO NOT LIKE THE HELL THEY ARE PUTTING THIS VERY GOOD TEAM THROUGH

How so? Win Shares are pretty reliable. PER is just an "all in one" number for all the positive (mainly offensive) contributions a player makes, TS is just FG% adjusted for 3's and free throws, etc. It's not that hard if you take the time to gain a semi decent understanding of it.

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:42 PM
I just support Hollins because I dont want to see this Grizzlies team broken up.

I think they're a very good team as they are.

He's had to replace crucial pieces like Battier & Mayo in consecutive seasons because the previous ownership didn't want to pay luxury taxes to have what would be the best team in the West right now.

If it were my money I'd keep that same core as Grizzlies until the day they retired or asked to leave because one of these years they would breakthrough and reach a NBA Finals just like that Pacers team in 2000.
:clap:

Vinylman
01-15-2013, 11:45 PM
I'm beating a dead horse so I'm done after this. But..


I really don't think the crux of this has anything to do with "advanced stats". I really think the bulk of it has to do with finances. I know it's Hollinger so this will always be assumed, and I'm sure he is turned off by Gay's relative inefficiency, but I wouldn't be stunned if even the least statistically-oriented and most turned-of-by-analytics franchise would be looking to shop Gay too. Financially they aren't sitting pretty, and he is the guy who it makes most sense to trade.

Nope... its both...

but the reality is if all you are worried about this year is the LT you ship out speights for a TPE or a pick and cash...

In the end everyone will know what it was about when we see the deal Memphis gets. All this talk of getting young studs and a good vet will be easy to discern

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:45 PM
Im pretty sure Marc just resigned, hes not going anywhere.

You are correct but Pau was signed,too and he got the trade he asked for

Hellcrooner
01-15-2013, 11:52 PM
You are correct but Pau was signed,too and he got the trade he asked for
They took their time tough.
They rejected the bulls like a million times.

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:52 PM
So he's an overpaid version of an overpaid player?

That's rich

el hidalgo
01-15-2013, 11:58 PM
i dont get it. boozer gets hated on so much for not living up to his contract. rudy gay is worse and has a worse contract. what am i missing here? why are people loving gay?

mzgrizz
01-15-2013, 11:58 PM
Gay is just not that good, get over it.

Randolph on the other hand..

I will get over it if they trade him. After all this is just a business. But there can be no doubt that Rudy is the best at creating his own shot, even if he does dribble a few seconds longer than I want. Mike Conley can create his shot but he has been horrid lately. I think the stats show they have lost more than they have won since Hollinger came on board. they are seriously ****ing with this team and I DON'T LIKE IT. in fact, I hate what they're doing

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 11:59 PM
i dont get it. boozer gets hated on so much for not living up to his contract. rudy gay is worse and has a worse contract. what am i missing here? why are people loving gay?

Boozer is kind of an ******* on a popular team while people want to like the Grizzlies. Grizzlies are very easy to root for.

Guppyfighter
01-15-2013, 11:59 PM
I will get over it if they trade him. After all this is just a business. But there can be no doubt that Rudy is the best at creating his own shot, even if he does dribble a few seconds longer than I want. Mike Conley can create his shot but he has been horrid lately. I think the stats show they have lost more than they have won since Hollinger came on board. they are seriously ****ing with this team and I DON'T LIKE IT. in fact, I hate what they're doing

lol That's rich.

Super.
01-16-2013, 12:01 AM
Rudy Gay is a volume shooting chucker.

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 12:02 AM
Boozer is kind of an ******* on a popular team while people want to like the Grizzlies. Grizzlies are very easy to root for.

this is BS. nobody likes rudy more just because he is on the griz. he is an overpaid player who plays no defense. sounds like boozer, but worse and more overpaid. what happened to people disliking those not even close to elite players with max deals?

nickdymez
01-16-2013, 12:06 AM
Except almost every front office...including your team's. What do you think team's are doing to evaluate talent? Flipping coins and clocking 40 yard dash times? Hahaha.


I don't need advanced stats to tell me that a "great scorer" who is scoring 18 points on 17 shots isn't really that great.

4th best player on the team...and has the worst contract. He's expendable. Hollinger and the rest of the front office gets that. The team is in cap hell...he's gotta be the first one to go. It's not because of his PER. It's not because of his PPP in post up chances. It's not necessarily any of that.

NO ONE ****IN CARES!!!!!!! Stop pushing your agenda on us!! NO ONE CARES!!!!! This isnt baseball, a sport where I think advanced stats is very key. Basketball? Hell no.. Just stop man.

Guppyfighter
01-16-2013, 12:10 AM
NO ONE ****IN CARES!!!!!!! Stop pushing your agenda on us!! NO ONE CARES!!!!! This isnt baseball, a sport where I think advanced stats is very key. Basketball? Hell no.. Just stop man.

NO ONE ****IN CARES!!!!!!! Stop pushing your agenda on us!!

mzgrizz
01-16-2013, 12:12 AM
Well, it was still a ********* time to have this swirl around him right when his grandmother was dying, died and buried. He's been back a couple of days and the team is spiralling and it's not Rudy's fault. Hell, I think Heisley should pay the luxury tax this year and let them play it out. He's the one that locked us into this death grip of salaries.

ManRam
01-16-2013, 12:16 AM
NO ONE ****IN CARES!!!!!!! Stop pushing your agenda on us!! NO ONE CARES!!!!! This isnt baseball, a sport where I think advanced stats is very key. Basketball? Hell no.. Just stop man.

Agenda? My opinion is not an agenda. I don't run around yelling "I LOVE ADVANCED STATS". You just refuse to acknowledge stats, let alone advanced ones, so obviously we're going to disagree. I really am not as entrenched in them any more as much as I was, and not nearly as much as a vast population of this site. I haven't even once brought them up or cited them in this thread :laugh:


Clearly people care. Clearly you care since you always respond!

Hell, the post you quoted has me downplaying stats a good amount... :laugh:

TrueFan420
01-16-2013, 12:16 AM
He took a pot shot at the A's. **** him.

This

b@llhog24
01-16-2013, 12:19 AM
NO ONE ****IN CARES!!!!!!! Stop pushing your agenda on us!! NO ONE CARES!!!!! This isnt baseball, a sport where I think advanced stats is very key. Basketball? Hell no.. Just stop man.

Problem is no one gives a **** about your opinion on PSD.

topdog
01-16-2013, 12:20 AM
Rudy Gay simply does not make sense on a Grizzlies team whose best players are Z-Bo and Gasol. His slashing offensive style does not compliment the post scoring duo on either end. Further, his contract is a burden and his worth is questionable (part of an NBA off-season I like to call "the summer of regret").

BKLYNpigeon
01-16-2013, 12:28 AM
Rudy gay get his numbers, but he doesnt make anyone really better.

kind of like Joe Johnson.

BKLYNpigeon
01-16-2013, 12:31 AM
Rudy Gay simply does not make sense on a Grizzlies team whose best players are Z-Bo and Gasol. His slashing offensive style does not compliment the post scoring duo on either end. Further, his contract is a burden and his worth is questionable (part of an NBA off-season I like to call "the summer of regret").

not really....you keep your assets and trade them later on. Now the Griz can get some good players back and a very good draft pick. You have to know when to holdem and Foldem.

mzgrizz
01-16-2013, 12:41 AM
And I have come to the conclusion that Rudy will be gone, but the FO hasn't made any friends here in Memphis and the average basketball fan in Memphis does not understand the business basics in the NBA. Crud, I can barely understand what they are thinking and I've been a faithful season ticket holder for 12 years; radio call in participant and represent them in the Grizz forum. I was initially excited about the possibilities that Hollinger could do, but I do feel they are blowing it up and never made one serious run with all these 4 -5 pieces until now. And now it looks to be disappearing. They KNEW what the salaries were when the team was purchased. Why the **** don't they let it play out one year?

MrfadeawayJB
01-16-2013, 01:02 AM
we need to let rudy play this season out. It could be a great season in memphis if they just let it be

Guppyfighter
01-16-2013, 01:08 AM
we need to let rudy play this season out. It could be a great season in memphis if they just let it be

Could be better if they move him for pieces that compliment your two best players.

SlimKid
01-16-2013, 01:17 AM
This post was just embarrassing..

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 01:27 AM
The advanced stat crew came in full force to take up for their god Hollinger. When In actuality, ADVANCED STATS HAVE NO PLACE IN BASKETBALL!!!!! I mean, just reading the first page you see all the advanced stat crew saying Gay is overrated, just to make Holinger not look like an *******. One guy even said that Lionel Hollins doesn't understand. Comical

funny. The last handful of champions employ a staff of advanced statistic scouting. But I mean, sports don't evolve to someone like you, right? Might as well coach right out of Bill Sharman's book of basketball, it doesn't get any better, right?

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 01:30 AM
Eventually, every team is going to have that matchup where it comes down to hitting tough shots in iso situations. Those 3 point shooters and ball movers aren't getting clean looks against every team in this league. If you rely on double teams in the post there will be bigs who don't need a double. If you rely on pick and rolls collapsing the D there will be teams like Bulls who will completely shut it down and not have to help on shooters. Those ball movers and high % shooters become rendered useless.

You need a Kobe, a Pierce, a Dirk, a Wade, a LeBron, a guy who can take a hit those low % shots you stat heads hate because a good playoff defense is going to force you into those shots and without a guy who can create them, your not getting a shot off let alone getting a bucket. There is a reason every title team in history had a guy who could create on the perimeter in iso situations, at the end of shot clocks when the first,second and third options come up dry, and hit tough shots like the guys I listed above. Most of them thrive in the mid range which is the stat heads enemy.


Gay is not one of these, sorry. He is a volume shooter, who is not efficient. He isn't a guy worth paying that money, in that cap situation, and someone you will miss much by trading for relief.

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 01:33 AM
NO ONE ****IN CARES!!!!!!! Stop pushing your agenda on us!! NO ONE CARES!!!!! This isnt baseball, a sport where I think advanced stats is very key. Basketball? Hell no.. Just stop man.

Do you understand that nobody on this site cares about your eye test? I would take a box score evaluation over yours.

KingsOfQueens
01-16-2013, 02:03 AM
My thoughts of a player have never taken such a turn as quick as this.

Hawkeye and ManRam really convinced me Rudy Gay is just average. I don't know though, something in me still says the only teams he wouldn't be able to help out is MIA and NYK. Other than that, he's an upgrade to at SF for just about every team. I guess that shows how thin the SF position is but damn, Rudy Gay always just seems like a guy who can really do it all. Good defender, rebounder, scorer, can hit a 3 and not scared of the big shot. He just doesnt shoot efficiently.

But after reading some posts I definitely see why MEM would and should move him. He'll be a welcome addition where ever he goes though IMO.

Chronz
01-16-2013, 02:32 AM
You are correct but Pau was signed,too and he got the trade he asked for

Yea but the team was floundering and looking to rebuild with Pau on the mend. They jettisoned their win now piece (Battier) for a future piece in Gay.

tredigs
01-16-2013, 02:37 AM
Gay is not one of these, sorry. He is a volume shooter, who is not efficient. He isn't a guy worth paying that money, in that cap situation, and someone you will miss much by trading for relief.

Au Contraire! I present my favorite NBA Youtube clip of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg

Chronz
01-16-2013, 02:37 AM
he has two more years after this if im not mistaken.

Thats around whn you have to deal your disgrutnled player and have leverage.

If they wait until the expiring year then the player has the " i wont sign back if you trade me to team x" leverage on the situation.
A risk worth taking considering Gay's salary. I mean, do you think Marc stays if the team cant improve beyond its current core? I think its best to retool around your best players if the right deal can come along. Although I do think they are mostly looking for salary relief.

Hellcrooner
01-16-2013, 04:22 AM
A risk worth taking considering Gay's salary. I mean, do you think Marc stays if the team cant improve beyond its current core? I think its best to retool around your best players if the right deal can come along. Although I do think they are mostly looking for salary relief.

im not sure what either gasol thinks .

they are team oriented to a fault.

I for sure if was mark would be thinking bout why be a 3rd 4th option in offense when you maybe are the best player in the team, and thus would already be considering where to move after contract is up ( in fact would have accepted the rockets offer and forced them to work out a sign and trade).

a sfor the other gasol, i would have raised hell and asked for a trade two years ago when for NO reason at all sicne you are reignin chmpion and you were as important as kobe if not more on it suddenly a sucker that is injured half the time and has brought nothing but role playing to the rings goes over you on the pecking order because spoiled poshy owner son says so.

el hidalgo
01-16-2013, 04:56 AM
you young fools watching basketball on tv dont know how to judge a game at all. any good basketball fan knows you can tell who the best players are by listening to a game on the radio. the flow of the game, the score changes, the commentators. thats the true way to judge a player. damn kids dont even know how to juge players with their instinct.

george mikan may not have looked flashy on the television or put up the best stats, but damnit you could tell he was one of the greatest ever. championship after championship. whippersnappers dont even give him the credit he deserves.

IndyRealist
01-16-2013, 05:07 AM
Because they have to pay luxury tax THIS season, if the guys go into the playoffs with this roster. Memphis isn't LA, they can't just ignore the tax.

And while Gay is a good defender, he is a mediocre offensive player who is massively overpaid. So if your directive is to shed salary while minimally impacting the team on the floor, then say good bye to Rudy.

IndyRealist
01-16-2013, 05:10 AM
Au Contraire! I present my favorite NBA Youtube clip of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg

So...one shot nullifies an entire career of bad shots, and justifies a max contract?

nbaeinstein
01-16-2013, 07:46 AM
If teh Grizz trade Gay then they'll see the Danny Granger affect, or how the Pacers struggled making up for DG despite him only possessing a so-so offensive game.

nbaeinstein.com

nickdymez
01-16-2013, 11:56 AM
Do you understand that nobody on this site cares about your eye test? I would take a box score evaluation over yours.

Who cares what you think. No one in the real world cares about advanced stats.

I Rock Shaqs
01-16-2013, 12:20 PM
You stats guys are ridiculous, here's an NBA coach telling you wrong and you guys still think that your right it's almost embarrassing how your fragile little egos can be when someone who knows 100x more about basketball doesn't agree with you.

nickdymez
01-16-2013, 12:43 PM
You stats guys are ridiculous, here's an NBA coach telling you wrong and you guys still think that your right it's almost embarrassing how your fragile little egos can be when someone who knows 100x more about basketball doesn't agree with you.

Exactly. They take offense because they really don't know basketball at all.

Chronz
01-16-2013, 12:43 PM
You stats guys are ridiculous, here's an NBA coach telling you wrong and you guys still think that your right it's almost embarrassing how your fragile little egos can be when someone who knows 100x more about basketball doesn't agree with you.

wrong about what exactly?

And sorry but being a coach doesn't make you more knowledgeable when it comes to stats. Have you ever heard Mike Dunleavy talk about stats? LMFAO hes an NBA coach, should I bow down to him too in spite of his moronic stances?

Chronz
01-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Who cares what you think. No one in the real world cares about advanced stats.

Proof? Oh wait your nickdymes, your opinion = gospel

nickdymez
01-16-2013, 12:46 PM
Proof? Oh wait your nickdymes, your opinion = gospel

lmfao!! Proof of what? That no one cares?? Get outta here man, your trying to hard

Chronz
01-16-2013, 12:47 PM
Exactly. They take offense because they really don't know basketball at all.
So then why do we know so much more than you? I mean you dont even know that APBR has infiltrated the NBA.

Efficient management is soo important that you got this bum coach hoping the stat heads dont take away from his talent pool. LOL so really, whos the one taking offense?

nickdymez
01-16-2013, 12:49 PM
wrong about what exactly?

And sorry but being a coach doesn't make you more knowledgeable when it comes to stats. Have you ever heard Mike Dunleavy talk about stats? LMFAO hes an NBA coach, should I bow down to him too in spite of his moronic stances?

Any coach on earth is more knowledgeable than you advanced stat nuts on this site. Are you saying that your more knowledgeable than NBA coaches now? Because you are not

nickdymez
01-16-2013, 12:51 PM
So then why do we know so much more than you? I mean you dont even know that APBR has infiltrated the NBA.

Efficient management is soo important that you got this bum coach hoping the stat heads dont take away from his talent pool. LOL so really, whos the one taking offense?

You think because you take advanced stats serious that you know more than people who dont? Your're a clown. None of you show me anything when it comes to basketball knowledge. You think you win arguments by posting WS. run along little man

Chronz
01-16-2013, 12:56 PM
Any coach on earth is more knowledgeable than you advanced stat nuts on this site. Are you saying that your more knowledgeable than NBA coaches now? Because you are not
Ive seen too many blatantly ignorant mistakes to think your right. Sorry bro but you know too little about the game to take your opinion seriously. But if it makes you feel any better your right around Mike Dunleavy's intellectual level.


You think because you take advanced stats serious that you know more than people who dont? Your're a clown.
Nope, its because I know more about basketball. Like I said, you dont even know that APBR has infiltrated the NBA and its universe among analysts. So its not like you set the bar high.



None of you show me anything when it comes to basketball knowledge. You think you win arguments by posting WS. run along little man
When have I ever won an argument in such a fashion? Oh right never, you see my knowledge of stats are just the tool I use to strengthen an argument laiden with facts. That you lack the capacity to debunk those facts is your problem. But keep making **** up about the way I post, Ill keep laughing at you ignoring every point made to regurgitate your flawed arguments.

Chronz
01-16-2013, 01:07 PM
You stats guys are ridiculous, here's an NBA coach telling you wrong and you guys still think that your right it's almost embarrassing how your fragile little egos can be when someone who knows 100x more about basketball doesn't agree with you.

Seriously can you defend your post because Im really intrigued at what you think the Coach is right about.

C_Mund
01-16-2013, 01:40 PM
Seriously can you defend your post because Im really intrigued at what you think the Coach is right about.

See I don't know much about stats, but I can definitely see the merit within. But that doesn't mean you can't reach the same conclusion without looking at the stat sheets.

What's always made me think is.... teams like the Blazers in the 70's (of which Hollins was a part) that were considered to be one of the most fluid and well put-together teams of all time.... do the stats back up their success? I don't even know where to begin looking up advanced stats for this year let alone years past, but maybe the stats are there only some people could once make similar personnel decisions without somebody like Hollinger to guide them.

Blitzbolt
01-16-2013, 01:47 PM
The Grizzlies don't have to trade Rudy to get under the cap.We could easily dump marreese speights or Bayless and be under.So the they have to trade him to get under is crap and not true at all.Also this is the first year Rudy and ZBO are both healthy and playing together just play the season and trade him in the off-season if you have to.


Also I think Hollins is a top 3 defensive coach in the NBA is hard to question the guy he turn one of the worst teams in the NBA(after the Pau trade)into a tough defensive low post team Without superstar.

Shlumpledink
01-16-2013, 02:00 PM
They shouldn't have given him that big contract in the first place. When he got that contract they were criticized and the nation sucked air through its teeth. Rudy Gay is a good player. He's athletic, runs the floor well, he can shoot it from mid range and the 3, he plays good defense. He's good in the clutch.

He is a good freaking player, and I like him a lot, but he makes too much damn money. He makes star money, and he's not a star player.

Chronz
01-16-2013, 02:06 PM
See I don't know much about stats, but I can definitely see the merit within. But that doesn't mean you can't reach the same conclusion without looking at the stat sheets.

What's always made me think is.... teams like the Blazers in the 70's (of which Hollins was a part) that were considered to be one of the most fluid and well put-together teams of all time.... do the stats back up their success? I don't even know where to begin looking up advanced stats for this year let alone years past, but maybe the stats are there only some people could once make similar personnel decisions without somebody like Hollinger to guide them.

My question was with regards to what he thinks Hollins is telling us, what exactly is he correcting us about. If its that stats dont tell the whole story then someone needs to slap him for making up strawman arguments. Nobody ever claimed they did.

C_Mund
01-16-2013, 02:09 PM
My question was with regards to what he thinks Hollins is telling us, what exactly is he correcting us about. If its that stats dont tell the whole story then someone needs to slap him for making up strawman arguments. Nobody ever claimed they did.

I wasn't taking sides, merely pointing out that I don't know enough about advanced stats to form an argument either way. Your post just brought up a thought and I threw it out there.

Chronz
01-16-2013, 02:36 PM
The Grizzlies don't have to trade Rudy to get under the cap.We could easily dump marreese speights or Bayless and be under.So the they have to trade him to get under is crap and not true at all.
You mean luxury tax threshold, because they have absolutely no chance of getting under the cap without getting rid of a huge contract, probably several of them.

And I dont think you can easily dump Bayless but pairing him with Speights could spark some interest, probably moreso than Gay considering his bargain contract and production. Still lets assume you move both. Thats 7.3M you have to move. Only 2 teams are under the cap (Houston and PHX(BARELY)) I doubt they would agree to absorb those salaries without more compensation (picks/cash) so unless you trade with Houston, that means every other team in the league will have to give back salary in exchance. I have to look up the rules but can they fetch enough of a savings with a 7.1M deal?

What about next year when Tony Allen needs to resign and everyones salary gos up? Do you just continue letting the team degrade for the sake of keeping Gay?

I do think the Grizz end up settling for dumping minimal players unless nobody is willing to help them, in which case thats the only scenario I can see Memphis dumping Gay for peanuts rather than a prospect+financial relief.





Also this is the first year Rudy and ZBO are both healthy and playing together just play the season and trade him in the off-season if you have to.

True but that isn't without its risks either. Sometimes a team has to take a step back to take 2 forward and if they refuse to move now, they may not have the option to take those steps forward and if the team fails to win now, your only raising the salary on a team with limited potential, no means to improve and may even degrade with upcoming extensions being intolerable and you've missed a financial window. It would be one thing if this was a crew playing at an elite level, but I dont think management is that impressed with the results.

Still, unless the right deal comes along, it would be a shame to dismantle the Grizz for purely financial reasons. I think they end up keeping Gay and trying to deal him when the team is eliminated, quite a few teams will have so much cap space that they would be willing to fill it just to get up to minimum. Like the Cavs for one, unless they are serious about preserving their cap space for 2014.

mjt20mik
01-16-2013, 02:38 PM
Stats has a place. However, you don't know how players affect morale and chemistry. An example to this was a guy like Jamal Maglore for the Raps last year. His stats were terrible, but his presence and leadership did wonders. You can not measure that in advance stats.

Tysons_Beard
01-16-2013, 02:44 PM
Gay is kinda not that special of a player.

smh:facepalm:

rockbottom2010
01-16-2013, 02:45 PM
gay is overrated......hes in his 7th season...

ManRam
01-16-2013, 02:49 PM
Stats has a place. However, you don't know how players affect morale and chemistry. An example to this was a guy like Jamal Maglore for the Raps last year. His stats were terrible, but his presence and leadership did wonders. You can not measure that in advance stats.

Do you think Gay is a paramount leader who's presence does wonders for the Grizz?

ManRam
01-16-2013, 02:50 PM
smh:facepalm:

Aha! When you put it that way, I guess you're right. I'm wrong. Gay is a phenomenal player!

Chronz
01-16-2013, 03:04 PM
I wasn't taking sides, merely pointing out that I don't know enough about advanced stats to form an argument either way. Your post just brought up a thought and I threw it out there.
Gotya

What I want to know is when did the Grizz start looking to trade Gay because IIRC it was long before Hollinger came on board yet hes the one in the thread title. His hiring struck me as Memphis wanting him to do what Morey did for Houston. Its still management making the decision and pulling the strings, they are just letting Hollinger do the heavy thinking on WHO they should trade with.

Im sure if it were up to Hollinger he would just keep the best players available but salary matters and unless your team is seriously contending, no team should think their players are immoveable.

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 05:26 PM
Au Contraire! I present my favorite NBA Youtube clip of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg

that dude might have slightly overreacted...

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 05:32 PM
Still, unless the right deal comes along, it would be a shame to dismantle the Grizz for purely financial reasons. I think they end up keeping Gay and trying to deal him when the team is eliminated, quite a few teams will have so much cap space that they would be willing to fill it just to get up to minimum. Like the Cavs for one, unless they are serious about preserving their cap space for 2014.

This is exactly what I was saying I believe will happen. They are simply exploring offers right now, to see if they can get something that will offer them salary relief while remaining as competitive as they are. I figure he gets moved this summer.

C_Mund
01-16-2013, 06:01 PM
Gotya

What I want to know is when did the Grizz start looking to trade Gay because IIRC it was long before Hollinger came on board yet hes the one in the thread title. His hiring struck me as Memphis wanting him to do what Morey did for Houston. Its still management making the decision and pulling the strings, they are just letting Hollinger do the heavy thinking on WHO they should trade with.

Im sure if it were up to Hollinger he would just keep the best players available but salary matters and unless your team is seriously contending, no team should think their players are immoveable.

That makes sense, production alone doesn't necessarily mean value, and the balance between the two is swung even more when efficiency is brought into the fold. I bet JH has already figured out ten trades that would give them similar metrics with far fewer salary restrictions and it's up to everybody else in the office to make one work while still keeping their own vision and team chemistry in tact.

kenzo400
01-16-2013, 06:01 PM
that dude might have slightly overreacted...

How? They lost the game because of that jump shot.

Hawkeye15
01-16-2013, 06:14 PM
How? They lost the game because of that jump shot.

acting like that in your living room, nobody around, ok.

acting like that with tons of people around you, while taping the game, not ok.

Vinylman
01-16-2013, 07:49 PM
This is exactly what I was saying I believe will happen. They are simply exploring offers right now, to see if they can get something that will offer them salary relief while remaining as competitive as they are. I figure he gets moved this summer.

maybe, but if they are seriousl about being under the LT threshhold this year they gotta get rid of someone (speights). The LT impact is not just the fact that they have to make payments its that they don't get any of the other LT payments kicked back to them... the number is significant

mzgrizz
01-16-2013, 11:06 PM
P
They shouldn't have given him that big contract in the first place. When he got that contract they were criticized and the nation sucked air through its teeth. Rudy Gay is a good player. He's athletic, runs the floor well, he can shoot it from mid range and the 3, he plays good defense. He's good in the clutch.

He is a good freaking player, and I like him a lot, but he makes too much damn money. He makes star money, and he's not a star player.

That's what happens when the billionaire owner makes the money decisions then decides to sell. Maybe Pera didn't do his due diligence enough and now he wants to showcase Hollinger

mzgrizz
01-16-2013, 11:12 PM
You mean luxury tax threshold, because they have absolutely no chance of getting under the cap without getting rid of a huge contract, probably several of them.

And I dont think you can easily dump Bayless but pairing him with Speights could spark some interest, probably moreso than Gay considering his bargain contract and production. Still lets assume you move both. Thats 7.3M you have to move. Only 2 teams are under the cap (Houston and PHX(BARELY)) I doubt they would agree to absorb those salaries without more compensation (picks/cash) so unless you trade with Houston, that means every other team in the league will have to give back salary in exchance. I have to look up the rules but can they fetch enough of a savings with a 7.1M deal?

What about next year when Tony Allen needs to resign and everyones salary gos up? Do you just continue letting the team degrade for the sake of keeping Gay?

I do think the Grizz end up settling for dumping minimal players unless nobody is willing to help them, in which case thats the only scenario I can see Memphis dumping Gay for peanuts rather than a prospect+financial relief.




True but that isn't without its risks either. Sometimes a team has to take a step back to take 2 forward and if they refuse to move now, they may not have the option to take those steps forward and if the team fails to win now, your only raising the salary on a team with limited potential, no means to improve and may even degrade with upcoming extensions being intolerable and you've missed a financial window. It would be one thing if this was a crew playing at an elite level, but I dont think management is that impressed with the results.

Still, unless the right deal comes along, it would be a shame to dismantle the Grizz for purely financial reasons. I think they end up keeping Gay and trying to deal him when the team is eliminated, quite a few teams will have so much cap space that they would be willing to fill it just to get up to minimum. Like the Cavs for one, unless they are serious about preserving their cap space for 2014.

Ok you've convinced me

Guppyfighter
01-16-2013, 11:23 PM
Rudy Gay is god awful on offense and it has only trended down for a while now. Will likely to continue trending down.

Hellcrooner
01-16-2013, 11:39 PM
worth noticing that since all these rumours are out the grizz are losing game after game.

MrfadeawayJB
01-16-2013, 11:49 PM
worth noticing that since all these rumours are out the grizz are losing game after game.

I'm starting to think we need a new look. Things are growing stale. Just not too much of a shakeup

Hawkeye15
01-17-2013, 01:39 AM
maybe, but if they are seriousl about being under the LT threshhold this year they gotta get rid of someone (speights). The LT impact is not just the fact that they have to make payments its that they don't get any of the other LT payments kicked back to them... the number is significant

for sure man.

el hidalgo
01-17-2013, 01:42 AM
i think people are liking rudy gay because hollinger dislikes him

Losoway
01-17-2013, 04:11 PM
the grizs finally have a championship contending team... PAY THE LUXURY TAX dont be scared to spend money . im tired of gms making tons of money and are scared to spend it right back

Giraffes Rule
01-17-2013, 05:02 PM
the grizs finally have a championship contending team... PAY THE LUXURY TAX dont be scared to spend money . im tired of gms making tons of money and are scared to spend it right back

GMs aren't paying the salary though?

Guppyfighter
05-16-2013, 12:22 AM
the grizs finally have a championship contending team... PAY THE LUXURY TAX dont be scared to spend money . im tired of gms making tons of money and are scared to spend it right back

lawl

jimm120
05-16-2013, 12:31 AM
yeah....I feel Gay would have only helped the Grizz. They're already going to the western finals probably. Gay would have only helped.

Guppyfighter
05-16-2013, 12:33 AM
yeah....I feel Gay would have only helped the Grizz. They're already going to the western finals probably. Gay would have only helped.

They have been 5.2 points better on offense without him. Five points is not only statistically significant, but it's practically important. We are not talking .2 points. Five points is a lot in data like this. The fact they went up that much is a huge knock on Gay. That's awful.

Sadds The Gr8
05-16-2013, 12:45 AM
yeah....I feel Gay would have only helped the Grizz. They're already going to the western finals probably. Gay would have only helped.

nah...he takes away shots from ZBO and Gasol. The offense would've been way different, and worse.

tredigs
05-16-2013, 12:46 AM
They have been 5.2 points better on offense without him. Five points is not only statistically significant, but it's practically important. We are not talking .2 points. Five points is a lot in data like this. The fact they went up that much is a huge knock on Gay. That's awful.

That's especially interesting given how weak Prince has been, especially in this post season. As many people projected, it's an addition by subtraction situation with Gay. Monta like.

b@llhog24
05-16-2013, 12:58 AM
Lol this thread is hilarious in hindsight.

Blitzbolt
05-16-2013, 01:02 AM
Hollins love his players not only in Basketball but on a personal LvL so you get why he was mad.

A big reason why Iverson and Lowry got traded away.

Avenged
05-16-2013, 01:07 AM
lawl

Bumping threads simply to troll is a quick way to get banned.