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View Full Version : How dumb do the Thunder look for trading James Harden?



NYSpirit1
01-09-2013, 12:40 AM
The guys averaging almost 27 a game on 45% shooting along with 5 and 5. 10 FTAs a game.

This was an incredibly dumb move, despite their record this year. They are still a top team, but their max potential, especially winning out over Miami, will show in the playoffs.

Harden is already a better player than Westbrook is and not nearly the ballhog. Durant and Harden would've been all that Wade and LeBron could've been if they STARTED their careers together.

Too bad we'll never know. The Thunder could've just ponied up the money to keep Harden, but then again, the small market teams screwed themselves with this move. They tried to put a fork in the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Clippers, Nets, Celtics --- all the big spenders and they put a fork in themselves with the luxury tax.

heyman321
01-09-2013, 12:42 AM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

NYSpirit1
01-09-2013, 12:43 AM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

GREAT scenario. Boston would've done this in five seconds. The Thunder missed a valuable opportunity with the incredibly OVERRATED Russell Westbrook.

Il Mago50
01-09-2013, 12:50 AM
I don't get why Perkins wasn't amnestied either, literally boneheaded considering he really doesn't do much of anything. I'd be fine starting Nick Collison

c.c.
01-09-2013, 12:59 AM
They never knew his ceiling and was scared to roll the dice on it due to his Finals performance

Miltstar
01-09-2013, 12:59 AM
Reminds me of when T-Mac left the Raptors. Except Harden actually wanted to stay.

5ass
01-09-2013, 12:59 AM
I don't get why Perkins wasn't amnestied either, literally boneheaded considering he really doesn't do much of anything. I'd be fine starting Nick Collison

Exactly why them trading harden was a very unexpected move for me. I thought they would amnesty perkins for sure if they needed to make a financial decision. Trading harden was a financial decision. They got a good return, but they could've kept him. Obviously though, they still might amnesty perkins and create some capspace for next year if im not mistaken?

fin_frenzy_84
01-09-2013, 12:59 AM
They don't look dumb for trading him because they would of lost him next year.... BUT they look dumb for giving Westbrook the money over Harden.

5ass
01-09-2013, 01:01 AM
Nvminfd, they cant get under the cap

STA_PLAR
01-09-2013, 01:03 AM
Reminds me of when T-Mac left the Raptors. Except Harden actually wanted to stay.

The first thought that came to my mind. When players realize they have potential they leave for the stardom and money.

In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston. The Thunder will be in the running every year for the next 5.

dwadefan03
01-09-2013, 01:03 AM
Russy is so underrated by people and he catches all of the blame whenever the thunder lose regardless of how well he plays.

Trading Harden was the right descision. They got a player whos literally filled Hardens position in Kevin Martin (who happens to be a better spot up shooterwhich fits the thunders team better), a piece that everyone seems to forget about in Jeremy Lamb, who could turnout to be a very good player, in addition to a first round pick from a team that probably wont go very far in the playoffs. Not to mention they saved money which allows them to keep Serge (who has been an absolute monster this year)

Getting rid of harden was the right descision

seikou8
01-09-2013, 01:03 AM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

rondo is more ball dominant then westbrook, kd and harden scoring and assists will alot down if rondo is your pg .

jmoney85
01-09-2013, 01:04 AM
he wasn't going to get the touches he gets now

5ass
01-09-2013, 01:04 AM
They don't look dumb for trading him because they would of lost him next year.... BUT they look dumb for giving Westbrook the money over Harden.

Thats true, they should've traded westbrook. Westbrook probably would've gotten them an even better package.

jmoney85
01-09-2013, 01:05 AM
rondo is more ball dominant then westbrook, kd and harden scoring and assists will alot down if rondo is your pg

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

JNoel
01-09-2013, 01:05 AM
Should have traded Westbrick...

Jarvo
01-09-2013, 01:05 AM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

This. But Harden didnt deserve no Big Superstar contract though.

PrettyBoyJ
01-09-2013, 01:06 AM
They don't look dumb for trading him because they would of lost him next year.... BUT they look dumb for giving Westbrook the money over Harden.

Yup! Not only is Harden a better player than Westbrook, He also plays better with Durant than Westbrook.

Wolfman01
01-09-2013, 01:07 AM
It was personal straight up business and after Harden turned down a contract offer the Thunder organzation had to do something. I'm a huge fan of Harden and I did thought that the Thunder made a mistake but with the Thunder having the best record in the NBA they don't miss Harden at all lol.

clutchfan
01-09-2013, 01:08 AM
The first thought that came to my mind. When players realize they have potential they leave for the stardom and money.

In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston. The Thunder will be in the running every year for the next 5.

What are the Mega Millions lottery numbers for next week?

c.c.
01-09-2013, 01:09 AM
The first thought that came to my mind. When players realize they have potential they leave for the stardom and money.

In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston. The Thunder will be in the running every year for the next 5.

Don't be so sure!!!!!!

heyman321
01-09-2013, 01:09 AM
rondo is more ball dominant then westbrook, kd and harden scoring and assists will alot down if rondo is your pg .

Yeah, Rondo is ball dominant but that's cause he's the point guard. I think what you tried to say was "Rondo is more of a shot hog than Westbrook", in which case you are STILL wrong, because Rondo can't shoot at all. But his sheer rebounding skills and court vision is good enough.

seikou8
01-09-2013, 01:09 AM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

really what did i that so wrong

c.c.
01-09-2013, 01:11 AM
What are the Mega Millions lottery numbers for next week?

Since he knows everything lol

NYSpirit1
01-09-2013, 01:14 AM
The first thought that came to my mind. When players realize they have potential they leave for the stardom and money.

In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston. The Thunder will be in the running every year for the next 5.

This is just a dumb statement. Dwight Howard isn't going to return to the Lakers next year if they continue the crappy run they're on and I'd put it at 75-25 he'd go to Houston. They'll have a massive amount of cap and Harden-Howard will be lethal for years. Harden is ALREADY the top SG in the game at 23.

C Howard
PF Asik
SF Parsons
SG Harden
PG Lin

That's a championship team easy, maybe better than OKC. And Howard fits way better there than in LA.

Houston has a shot at being great if they get the chips to fall their way.

Rosh
01-09-2013, 01:22 AM
Love the fact that Westbrook is getting his in this thread. I've never really liked him. He's talented but way too much of a headcase to know when to defer. He's a great player, but as a basketball fan, Durant/Harden/Rondo would have been fantastic.

DallasTrilla23
01-09-2013, 01:24 AM
I don't think Harden had earned the contract that he wanted OKC to give him yet. He's def. showing that he's worth what he got but you can't blame OKC for not wanting to pay max money for a 6th man who underpreformed in the finals

Besides they got a good package. Lamb, Martin and Toronto's Lottery Pick. They might look dumb now but you can't judge the move until you see how the players develop.

More-Than-Most
01-09-2013, 01:24 AM
They are 26-8 and have one of the best records in the NBA...They have Durant and Westy long term........ If they are Dumb who the hell is smart?

Chronz
01-09-2013, 01:25 AM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

really what did i that so wrong
Nothing, your dead on

DaVille
01-09-2013, 01:26 AM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

Scary squad: Rondo, Harden, Durant, and Ibaka.

Presti dropped the ball hanging on to Westbrook instead of Harden. That Rondo for Westbrook trade in hindsight should been made.

joseph aka Jman
01-09-2013, 01:36 AM
Rondo
Harden
KD
Ibaka

thats Nasty would have been dope

PurpleJesus
01-09-2013, 01:54 AM
Was OKC supposed to let him walk? I am more disappointed that Harden didnt accept slightly less per year to play with Durant and Westbrook. OKC did a fine job of making the best out of a bad situation.

fin_frenzy_84
01-09-2013, 01:58 AM
Rondo
Harden
KD
Ibaka

thats Nasty would have been dope

Yes! Its just like when the Celtics won the championship but all the players are a lot younger and the Celtics never had a Durant type player.

Alayla
01-09-2013, 02:00 AM
They Dont it was the right move

LA4life24/8
01-09-2013, 02:01 AM
woulda kept harden, shoulda gave him the extra cash, they kept perkins because they thought theyd need him to guard howard this year, but since la is a joke right now they dont have to wrry about it, even without harden they are likely to come out of the west and i really think they will be winning it all this year

Miltstar
01-09-2013, 02:02 AM
Rondo
Harden
KD
Ibaka

thats Nasty would have been dope


imagine the Thunder's record with that line up, Collison at C. They'd be far and away the best team in the league

LA4life24/8
01-09-2013, 02:03 AM
i dont blame harden, he was almost every bit as valuable as westbrook and they gave him his money and ibaka his, so why couldnt they give harden his??

sep11ie
01-09-2013, 02:16 AM
Just like I said on the OP's other dumb thread he started. Nothing but attacking other teams with no basis for his arguments...

torocan
01-09-2013, 02:30 AM
In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston.

WAY too early to be ruling out Houston.

Their average age is 24 (youngest in the NBA), least experienced (1.9 years), highest roster turn over (13 new players), they're 21-14 (.600), 14-2 vs the East, and the 6th seed in the WEST with the 3rd hardest schedule in the NBA.

And oh yah, they have the LOWEST salary in the NBA ($47M) with only $31M guaranteed on the books for next year (they can sign another max player EASILY).

The right Superstar with their current core and some continued development and they could easily become a legitimate contender in 1-2 years.

They're already looking like a legitimate play off team right now.

JayHunter
01-09-2013, 02:35 AM
It's not dumb because they couldn't afford him anyway. If he really wanted to stay and win he would have took the contract that was offered. He thought they was bluffing when they told him he had 24 hours. They can look forward to playing with each other again in the all star game lol.

JasonJohnHorn
01-09-2013, 02:36 AM
This trade was a financial trade.... that said, the Thunder got a great SG in place of Harden who has been playing well, and they got a couple of draft picks out of the deal and have one of the best records in the league. I think it was a great trade for both teams.

Cracka2HI!
01-09-2013, 02:42 AM
The thing is they are doing just fine without him. It's easy to trash the move, but they knew what they were doing.

joseph aka Jman
01-09-2013, 02:47 AM
imagine the Thunder's record with that line up, Collison at C. They'd be far and away the best team in the league

None of them are older than 26, would have been the makings of a dynasty

Vincent33
01-09-2013, 02:58 AM
OKC was going to get rid of Harden at some point. Can't keep Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden. Harden's the odd man out. OKC had to get something for him and not just let him walk.

Been a good deal for both teams so far.

joseph aka Jman
01-09-2013, 03:08 AM
Should've traded Westy, IMO Harden fits better then Westbrook does.

Russel is just to inconsistant while Harden is proving to be one of the best SG

BenFrank
01-09-2013, 03:31 AM
This is just a dumb statement. Dwight Howard isn't going to return to the Lakers next year if they continue the crappy run they're on and I'd put it at 75-25 he'd go to Houston. They'll have a massive amount of cap and Harden-Howard will be lethal for years. Harden is ALREADY the top SG in the game at 23.

C Howard
PF Asik
SF Parsons
SG Harden
PG Lin

That's a championship team easy, maybe better than OKC. And Howard fits way better there than in LA.

Houston has a shot at being great if they get the chips to fall their way.

99% Agree!! My only grip.. is there's a big chance, Hou does a S&T with Asik and fillers to Free up cap space for the following summer to sign another guy, because Asik isn't a PF, and would be makeing to much to be a backup C, but Howard, Harden, Lin, Parson, and Capspace :drool:

Kevin Love, and Lamarcus Aldridge could be targets thru trades also

SACNYY
01-09-2013, 03:48 AM
rondo is more ball dominant then westbrook, kd and harden scoring and assists will alot down if rondo is your pg .

Thunder would be better with Rondo. Westbrick is a gunner that takes more shots than Durant. Rondo would spread the ball around which would give more shots to everyone else.

smith&wesson
01-09-2013, 03:50 AM
I agree with the op... The thunder had harden pretty low on their priority list and I bet they regret trading him. Not because they aren't still good but because they are seeing how good harden really is now.

rocketfuel
01-09-2013, 03:56 AM
The Thunder would have been good this year, by virtue of having so many athletes and Kevin Durant.... but let's say that they did amensty Perkins at the time and kept Harden.... wouldn't they devastate the league? Three young athleitc studs rolling and peaking at the same time. I think Harden happened to peak this year....the summer playing with all those great players helped too.

Mr_Amaziing
01-09-2013, 04:06 AM
Russy is so underrated by people and he catches all of the blame whenever the thunder lose regardless of how well he plays.

Trading Harden was the right descision. They got a player whos literally filled Hardens position in Kevin Martin (who happens to be a better spot up shooterwhich fits the thunders team better), a piece that everyone seems to forget about in Jeremy Lamb, who could turnout to be a very good player, in addition to a first round pick from a team that probably wont go very far in the playoffs. Not to mention they saved money which allows them to keep Serge (who has been an absolute monster this year)

Getting rid of harden was the right descision

This

But the best thing about this trade is we own Toronto's 1st round pick(3-7). Can you imagine if Okc drafted Nerlens Noel :D Ibaka & Noel in the paint would be Awesome.




Pg- Westbrook / Jackson / Maynor
Sg- Sefo / Martin / Lamb
Sf- Durant / PJ3
Pf- Ibaka / Collison
C- Noel / Thabeet / Perkins

Most likely they'll Amnesty Perkins once they draft Noel



Okc wins this trade

Vincent33
01-09-2013, 04:47 AM
I agree with the op... The thunder had harden pretty low on their priority list and I bet they regret trading him. Not because they aren't still good but because they are seeing how good harden really is now.

Yeah, but OKC was never going to have Harden be in the situation he is in with Houston. Harden is #1 option unquestionably with Houston and would be #3 behind Durant and Westbrook.

Plus, Harden was going to demand $$$$ in FA, no way OKC could have kept him, Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. OKC chose Ibaka over Harden and given the scoring options on the team and roles for each player. I think they made the right choice.

Trueblue2
01-09-2013, 05:09 AM
Not too dumb, they dont really need his facilitating with the othed players they have. Martin can pick up the scoring for the time being. They got a good guy for the future in lamb plus a draft pick. Martin expires after this season, they can amnesty perk when Martin expires and be a player in fa. They lost a good player but they set themselves up pretty nice for the future.

tp13baby
01-09-2013, 05:21 AM
The OP trashed Westbrook in a recent post. Westbrook is so underrated now. By far the most explosive point guard today. He can shoot which he sometimes forces. But damn he is really doing it all. I think Harden is starting to become overrated. Not a guy that is a great shooter, Martin is a better shooter, Lamb may be a stud in a few years and you have the Torontos draft all by not giving a max to a bench player. As a Thunder fan you have to like it.

mjt20mik
01-09-2013, 06:42 AM
Would love to see OKC vs HOU in the playoffs

sagemania
01-09-2013, 07:38 AM
The first thought that came to my mind. When players realize they have potential they leave for the stardom and money.

In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston. The Thunder will be in the running every year for the next 5.

lol.Houston has the best young squad in the league. We have a ton of capspace to sign a max free agent to shore up the current core. Houston will be a contender in 2 to 3 years max.

sagemania
01-09-2013, 07:41 AM
Yeah, but OKC was never going to have Harden be in the situation he is in with Houston. Harden is #1 option unquestionably with Houston and would be #3 behind Durant and Westbrook.

Plus, Harden was going to demand $$$$ in FA, no way OKC could have kept him, Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. OKC chose Ibaka over Harden and given the scoring options on the team and roles for each player. I think they made the right choice.

That shows how badly he was used in OKC. Noway Westbrick should be ahead of Harden in anything related to offense and playmaking.

fredv
01-09-2013, 08:15 AM
Harden just tied Rockets franchise record (set by Moses Malone) of 13-straight games with 25 or more points. All of that at 23 years old and 4 months with the team.
Lets see if he can break it against the Hornets.

2-ONE-5
01-09-2013, 08:49 AM
yea umm no they dont look dumb. Tey got a player in Martin who is providing the same scoring Harden did and got some young players/assets to work with and develop. They clearly dont miss him.

bagwell368
01-09-2013, 09:29 AM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

Give the man a cigar. Taking on Perkins AND Nate Robinson in that deal was bad enough, but signing Perk to that deal? Awful. He's not the 2008-2010 Perk anymore and never will be again.

koreancabbage
01-09-2013, 09:38 AM
yea umm no they dont look dumb. Tey got a player in Martin who is providing the same scoring Harden did and got some young players/assets to work with and develop. They clearly dont miss him.

of course they look dumb in doing so. He's the best shooting guard in the league (or top 3) and the fact he wanted to play there, but he didn't even get a chance to sign the contract they give him in the allotted amount of time.


Harden >>>> whatever OKC got back for him. Kevin Martin is expiring as well.


and the fact they didn't trade him to shore up their weaknesses - which was the front court and center in Perkins.

i'm sorry but when you trade away a top 5 positional player for players less worthy to be in the same sentence - you always look dumb. Now OKC looks good NOW but this was a dynasty in the making and Harden at the 2 would have made them the next small market team (like the Spurs) to make it big.

faze38
01-09-2013, 10:51 AM
Russy is so underrated by people and he catches all of the blame whenever the thunder lose regardless of how well he plays.

Trading Harden was the right descision. They got a player whos literally filled Hardens position in Kevin Martin (who happens to be a better spot up shooterwhich fits the thunders team better), a piece that everyone seems to forget about in Jeremy Lamb, who could turnout to be a very good player, in addition to a first round pick from a team that probably wont go very far in the playoffs. Not to mention they saved money which allows them to keep Serge (who has been an absolute monster this year)

Getting rid of harden was the right descision

Holy Crap hell has frozen over I agree with a Heat fan!

I mean Harden is having a great season but if u think about it the Thunder are still one of the favs as far as winning a ring they are gonna get two young high pick players in Lamb and the Raptors 1st rounder. I mean u can't get a much better return. Harden is a very good player but Westbrook has more potential then Harden. He's a lot more athletic and he just needs to bring he's passing game up and limit turnovers.

Swashcuff
01-09-2013, 11:20 AM
The ignorance in this thread is comical.

It's clear that half of those commenting don't even watch the Thunder play. They just see how well Harden is playing and anoints him the better decision. OKC got back valuable assets in Martin and Lamb was able to keep one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA on their starting line-up and has the financial flexibility to still add needed pieces to their roster.

You guys are saying trade Rondo for Westbrook? Are you on CRACK? Rondo is a lockeroom cancer he is known not to get along with his teammates and coaches. Westbrook is Kevin Durant's best/closest friend on the team and their chemistry has granted them success in many different ways. Now you're going to change that dynamic because Rondo is a better passer? Do you guys realize that despite the fact that Rondo is a better passer he has never ran a more efficient offense than Westbrook (the best offense over the past 3 years in the NBA)? I can't understand the thinking of people saying the the entire offensive dynamic of the Thunder should be changed and they're expecting them to be as effective or as efficient as it is now. They sure as hell aren't better off defensively.

Whether or not if the Thunder made the right move is still yet to be seen (depends a lot on if Martin stays on, the development of Lamb and how their draft picks pan out) but as of right now they have the best offense in the NBA, the 2nd best record in the West and Westbrook with his combined scoring and assists #s still accounts for more offense and a higher % of his team's offense than any guard not named Kobe Bryant.


PPG 2FG 3FG
Kobe 30.2 3.4 1.4 41.2
Westy 21.7 6.9 1.7 40.6
Harden 26.6 3.4 2.0 39.4

Are the Thunder better with Westy than Harden? We really don't know the answer but the notion that they are that much worse off by keeping Westy is ludicrous.

maddBat
01-09-2013, 11:34 AM
what do u mean dumb? they #2 in the nba right now. they did what they had 2 do. im sure there was a plan b and c. but harden could have taken like 5 mil less to stay on the team as well.

justinnum1
01-09-2013, 12:22 PM
perkins is awful.

2-ONE-5
01-09-2013, 12:33 PM
of course they look dumb in doing so. He's the best shooting guard in the league (or top 3) and the fact he wanted to play there, but he didn't even get a chance to sign the contract they give him in the allotted amount of time.


Harden >>>> whatever OKC got back for him. Kevin Martin is expiring as well.


and the fact they didn't trade him to shore up their weaknesses - which was the front court and center in Perkins.

i'm sorry but when you trade away a top 5 positional player for players less worthy to be in the same sentence - you always look dumb. Now OKC looks good NOW but this was a dynasty in the making and Harden at the 2 would have made them the next small market team (like the Spurs) to make it big.

just read all the posts that came after yours....

Harden would have never had the chance to score like this in OKC. They havent missed a beat with him gone, not one...

BKLYNpigeon
01-09-2013, 12:34 PM
Debate it all you want... its really a non issue.

Sam Presti knows what he's doing and knows more about Basketball then any of you guys.

sep11ie
01-09-2013, 12:36 PM
perkins is awful.

This has so much to do with this thread...lol

SteBO
01-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Good Lord, what does Westbrook have to do for you mad men to stop kangaroo hopping all over him? And it's so easy for you people to say in hindsight what Presti should have done, but fact remains he knows more about this team than all of you do......

SouthSideRookie
01-09-2013, 12:43 PM
just read all the posts that came after yours....

Harden would have never had the chance to score like this in OKC. They havent missed a beat with him gone, not one...

We will see come playoff time. This is coming from someone who likes the thunder btw.


Debate it all you want... its really a non issue.

Sam Presti knows what he's doing and knows more about Basketball then any of you guys.

Morey is up there. The Rockets just haven't been bad enough to draft in the top of the lottery under his watch.

and yeah, let's compare WB to Harden's stats. Houston and OKCs rosters are comparable afterall.

Swashcuff
01-09-2013, 12:46 PM
just read all the posts that came after yours....

Harden would have never had the chance to score like this in OKC. They havent missed a beat with him gone, not one...

The spacing Martin has given them has also added a dynamic in which they were lacking in last season. Watch 5 minutes of OKC play and you'd see it. This season Durant is averaging 2.2 assists on 2FGs that's more or less his career norm. I mean last season he averaged 2.3 in that regard so he's down a tad but in terms of 3FGs assists he's up to a career high of 1.9 which I believe is the #1 ratio in the league of players averaging 4 or more APG.

What does this tell us? The spacing that Martin (and others namely) has provided has actually HELPED Kevin Durant improve his all round game and as a result since now when he draws the defensive attention on the inside there is a more lethal shooter on the perimeter to knock down jumpers at a highly consistent rate. This things apparently go unnoticed and unappreciated by those that clearly aren't paying attention to anything OKC.

koreancabbage
01-09-2013, 12:48 PM
just read all the posts that came after yours....

Harden would have never had the chance to score like this in OKC. They havent missed a beat with him gone, not one...

its true but it would have Westbrook turn into a scorer and Harden could facilitate the offense - who probably would have been the better choice moving forward.

they haven't missed a beat b/c all they got was a scorer they needed of off the bench. Martin isn't a chump but he's pretty one dimensional - what the Thunder had in Harden when he came off of the bench b/c they didn't need him to do anything. As well with the development of Serge Ibaka, who is coming into his own, that offsets the Harden loss.

but the ramifications of the Harden move is always forward looking - you can't really tell but Martin is expiring, and who knows how much he will go for in his new contract. If anything, this was a cost saving move moreso than talent evaluation move.

Noone knows how Harden would be like, scoring wise, if he was to become a starter on the Thunder. So we can't say Harden wouldn't have the opportunity to score. I think it becomes even more relevant that they would have had to trade Westy in the coming seasons if Harden was still there.

DrJamesNaismith
01-09-2013, 12:56 PM
The guys averaging almost 27 a game on 45% shooting along with 5 and 5. 10 FTAs a game.

This was an incredibly dumb move, despite their record this year. They are still a top team, but their max potential, especially winning out over Miami, will show in the playoffs.

Harden is already a better player than Westbrook is and not nearly the ballhog. Durant and Harden would've been all that Wade and LeBron could've been if they STARTED their careers together.

Too bad we'll never know. The Thunder could've just ponied up the money to keep Harden, but then again, the small market teams screwed themselves with this move. They tried to put a fork in the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Clippers, Nets, Celtics --- all the big spenders and they put a fork in themselves with the luxury tax.

If OKC wasn't arguably the best team in the NBA, you may have an argument. But, as is, you sound pretty uninformed. OKC has the fewest losses in the NBA. Houston is 3rd IN THEIR DIVISION! If 1 player made a team, yes... bad trade, but that's so far from the truth, that your argument has exactly 0 merit.

justinnum1
01-09-2013, 01:06 PM
This has so much to do with this thread...lol

it does. if they would have amnestied perkins they could have kept harden.

Snakeyestx
01-09-2013, 01:07 PM
If you really look at the total outcome here, both sides ended up smelling like roses.

Harden is young and talented and has the ability to be the face of a franchise. He got his shot, and how he's growing into what he should be.

Martin was on the decline here in Houston, but is comfortable as the 6th man in OKC. He's still a productive player, and he's now not "responsible" for the games outcome, but is stable enough to be called upon without feeling overburdened since the roster is deep enough to spread the load.

miller74
01-09-2013, 01:19 PM
Harden would never have been able to become this player while in OKC

ManRam
01-09-2013, 01:19 PM
I think they're feeling OK. They have the best offense in the league, they are much better off in terms of future contracts, and they have Toronto's first rounder (top 3 protected) as well as a nice young player in Lamb. It lets them be more flexible in the future. Harden is a stud, and probably better than Westbrook, but it's not always that cut and dry. He's not going to have the impact he's having in Houston for OKC, ever.

Both sides won. It was what both needed, and it will help both out immensely in the future.

OKC look far from dumb.

And I still think Durant and Westbrook compliment each other better than Harden and Durant :shrug:

ChiSox219
01-09-2013, 01:23 PM
Harden is going to go down as one of the greatest and the Thunder dealt him before he even started his 4th season, I'm not sure they knew what they had.

Snakeyestx
01-09-2013, 01:26 PM
Harden is going to go down as one of the greatest and the Thunder dealt him before he even started his 4th season, I'm not sure they knew what they had.

I think they did.... they had an overabundance of young talent that all deserved starters minutes and right now, that could lead to bad chemistry when they're all jockeying for position. They have a content veteran in Kevin Martin more than taking up the slack in what they lost in Harden plus a good protected pick and a good draft pick in Jeremy Lamb - the latter two could equate to great trade pieces should they need it, or future development should Westbrook truly fall off.

ManRam
01-09-2013, 01:27 PM
Harden is going to go down as one of the greatest and the Thunder dealt him before he even started his 4th season, I'm not sure they knew what they had.

I'm pretty sure they knew what they had. They also know their cap situation pretty well too. They also knew that Martin, Lamb and Toronto's first round pick serve to both keep them contending now and help the future development of the team. They haven't missed a beat because of this trade.

Harden might go down to be an all time great, but Durant is just that too. Harden is more like Durant than anyone else on that team. While he may be better than the rest of them too, it's about how the parts fit. They moved the right guy...the guy who was coming off the bench and never would be fully utilized like he is now in Houston.

They really couldn't have afforded to sign Harden to a max, so this was only a matter of time. They got a deal they felt was fair (and it was), and pounced. Both sides are happy.

Stinkyoutsider
01-09-2013, 01:43 PM
I think the team did the best they could? They could have amnestied Perkins though. But my though is, while Perkins doesn't put up the numbers like he did with the Celtics, he's still one of the better, if not the best, post defenders in the NBA. When the playoffs come around and things slow down, Perkins will play well (I think).

The Thunder thought that it was easier to replace a wing player than a big. And normally, they would be right in this day and age, but Harden does so much for the Rockets that I'm starting to doubt that a little.

They could have traded Westbrook, but the only weakness in Westbrook's game I see is his shot selection. Everywhere else, he's good. And he can create his own shot...

The Thunder got a good haul from the Harden deal. Martin can do what he does best and not have to create plays for everyone else. Lamb has talent, and that pick is an asset they can figure what to do with.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-09-2013, 01:56 PM
another pathetic thread by Nyspirit1

mjm07
01-09-2013, 01:59 PM
This trade was a financial trade.... that said, the Thunder got a great SG in place of Harden who has been playing well, and they got a couple of draft picks out of the deal and have one of the best records in the league. I think it was a great trade for both teams.

This.

A lot of pple here are underrating Westbrook.

time4change
01-09-2013, 02:17 PM
Seriously no love for Jeremy Lamb? Dude will be a nice piece in a year or two.

How bout we wait more than 35 games to make our judgments?

ChiSox219
01-09-2013, 02:27 PM
I think they did.... they had an overabundance of young talent that all deserved starters minutes and right now, that could lead to bad chemistry when they're all jockeying for position. They have a content veteran in Kevin Martin more than taking up the slack in what they lost in Harden plus a good protected pick and a good draft pick in Jeremy Lamb - the latter two could equate to great trade pieces should they need it, or future development should Westbrook truly fall off.

Have you heard this story:


Before the 2009 draft, Harden (considered to be a top-five pick) e-mailed Presti pushing for Oklahoma City to select him third overall. See, Harden disliked being "The Man" at Arizona State. He hated the pressure of delivering game after game after game. He didn't need 20 shots a game. He'd rather become the third-best player on a great team than the best player on a forgettable one. If anything, playing with Durant and Westbrook was perfect for him. James Harden wanted to make sure Sam Presti knew that. So he e-mailed him to make sure.

I think OKC got a lot of value but not enough. Harden reminds me a lot of Michael Jordan especially when it comes to offensive IQ and effectively taking over games when necessary. It's extreme to be throwing around MJ comparisons but that's where I'm coming from when talking about Harden. He's got a little of Nash's game too.


I'm pretty sure they knew what they had. They also know their cap situation pretty well too. They also knew that Martin, Lamb and Toronto's first round pick serve to both keep them contending now and help the future development of the team. They haven't missed a beat because of this trade.

You may be right on OKC knowing what they had, I'm probably off, Harden's talent was/is obvious. What I should say is OKC thought Harden's role had a positive affect on his performance and that role could be fulfilled with a player like Martin (and Lamb). You say they haven't missed a beat but I wonder if they lose to the Bobcats or if their offense isn't even more effective if they still have Harden. OKC may just win the title this year, Westbrook is an amazing talent, KD for MVP, all that good stuff, just think Harden makes them better.



Harden might go down to be an all time great, but Durant is just that too. Harden is more like Durant than anyone else on that team. While he may be better than the rest of them too, it's about how the parts fit. They moved the right guy...the guy who was coming off the bench and never would be fully utilized like he is now in Houston.

Harden can fit in anywhere with anyone. I've seen no data that backs your claim, Harden and Durant were awesome together.

The way OKC utilized Harden was different than Houston but still incredibly effective. In addition to his quality offensive production, Harden was sticking many of the opponents best players including Kobe and Lebron in the playoffs. His ws/48 was actually higher last year, in part because Harden got more three point spot up opportunities.



They really couldn't have afforded to sign Harden to a max, so this was only a matter of time. They got a deal they felt was fair (and it was), and pounced. Both sides are happy.

Someone posted the math here and the way I remember they would have been under the tax with all four superstars under contract. Much of the bench would have to be paid the minimum but the level of talent at the minimum under the new CBA is better than in the past.

Maybe the poster was inaccurate and I know a year or two down the line the tax line would be breached unless it inflates but at that point that's where maybe you consider dealing Westbrook because Harden can play either guard spot and imo is the better player.

heyman321
01-09-2013, 02:33 PM
I think the team did the best they could? They could have amnestied Perkins though. But my though is, while Perkins doesn't put up the numbers like he did with the Celtics, he's still one of the better, if not the best, post defenders in the NBA. When the playoffs come around and things slow down, Perkins will play well (I think).


did you even watch the playoffs last year? Perkins did nothing. And proved it again on Christmas by making that dumb help play that left Bosh open.

LOOTERX9
01-09-2013, 03:13 PM
Harden is going to go down as one of the greatest and the Thunder dealt him before he even started his 4th season, I'm not sure they knew what they had.

Well OKC should not feel Dumb or anything considering that just horrid finals display from harden last season. plus okc still has top record and they got a couple very good players in return for harden. Plus harden was not gonna be able to start and shine like he is now with houston

Chronz
01-09-2013, 03:18 PM
Cosign on OKC not knowing what they had with Harden. If they did, they would have traded Westbrook. I say that as an optimist, I think the Rockets are in the perfect situation to contend soon because of this man.

Chronz
01-09-2013, 03:22 PM
did you even watch the playoffs last year? Perkins did nothing. And proved it again on Christmas by making that dumb help play that left Bosh open.

Perkins shined against LA. Thats it.

With them getting Dwight, I can understand why OKC felt having Perk in their back pockets could pay off. But now its clear LA isn't a threat worth building your roster around.

KniCks4LiFe
01-09-2013, 03:28 PM
The only way OKC should feel dumb is if James Harden eliminates them from the playoffs. Until then both the Roxs and Thunder won. But the Roxs have acquired cheaply may I add, the NBA's top SG.

Chronz
01-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Harden might go down to be an all time great, but Durant is just that too. Harden is more like Durant than anyone else on that team.
I see that as a good thing. I think he could have brought out the best in Durant too.


While he may be better than the rest of them too, it's about how the parts fit. They moved the right guy...the guy who was coming off the bench and never would be fully utilized like he is now in Houston.
Would he need to be fully utilized to be worth it? OKC felt not but Im not convinced they moved the right guy if they needed to cut costs. With Durant's overall floor game improving, the need for a playmaker like Westbrook seems less important if Harden is around.

Their roles are more defined with RWB, but I get a chub thinking of what could have been, with Harden-Durant you would have 2 efficient playmakers who can both play with or without the basketball. How often does that happen? And you mention his bench status, do you think Westbrook would have accepted coming off the bench? I highly doubt it, which is sad because I think his game would translate well off the bench as an instant scorer/change of pace guard, while Harden and Durant methodically kill you in the half court.


They really couldn't have afforded to sign Harden to a max, so this was only a matter of time. They got a deal they felt was fair (and it was), and pounced. Both sides are happy.
Well there is still plenty of time for them to regret the decision. As a Rox fan, Im hoping for it.

sammyvine
01-09-2013, 03:45 PM
I think they're feeling OK. They have the best offense in the league, they are much better off in terms of future contracts, and they have Toronto's first rounder (top 3 protected) as well as a nice young player in Lamb. It lets them be more flexible in the future. Harden is a stud, and probably better than Westbrook, but it's not always that cut and dry. He's not going to have the impact he's having in Houston for OKC, ever.

Both sides won. It was what both needed, and it will help both out immensely in the future.

OKC look far from dumb.

And I still think Durant and Westbrook compliment each other better than Harden and Durant :shrug:

No they don't

They are both very talented so they win games but when it really matters, they will never work. Didnt you see westbrook miss an open kevin martin towards the end of the heat game?

Westbrook is a shoot first pg and a chucker in the mold of francis and marbury. How can you continue to take more shots than the best scorer in the game? I don't care if durant doesnt get open or whatever, that's absurd.
He should shoot, no doubt about it but routinely he takes more shots than durant. During the olympics, seeing Lebron dish the ball to out to durant made me think how great he would be with a pass 1st pg.
They will never win with Westbrook as their PG. I hope they keep him.
He will just be a dumb chucker for the rest of his career.

ManRam
01-09-2013, 03:51 PM
They will never win with Westbrook as their PG. I hope they keep him.

Why do people keep saying this? They have the best offense in the NBA this season. They had the second best in the NBA last season.

He's not hurting them offensively. He's gotta get his shooting percentages up, for sure...and he WILL...but he's been a much more willing passer than last year, he is a better passer than Harden, and Durant needs that. Durant is amazing both on and off the ball, but for his career he's been dependent on being set up a lot more than most think.

Westbrook hasn't been amazing, mainly in terms of scoring efficiency. But that's really his only weakness.

I know I'm in the minority, and I LOVE Harden as much as I love Westbrook. They might have traded the wrong guy, but it wasn't a dumb move. One of them had to go...and they kept their PG.

And ChiSox, I know about that Harden story. I don't think it really rubbed anyone on OKC the wrong way. I can't prove it, but I don't think that was in the back of their minds at all when they were looking to trade him.



EDIT: Comparing Westbrook to Francis and Marbury is questionable. Westbrook's last three seasons (including this one), are better than any season those three ever had. He does need to get his efficiency up...but he's a much better passer than Francis ever was, and a better all-around player than Marbury too.

ztilzer31
01-09-2013, 03:52 PM
I agree that they should of traded Westbrook instead of Harden, but Harden did have a horrible finals. It wasn't the missed shots that bothered me, it was the wide open ones he passed on later. Good shooters have short term memories, and he definitely was scared to shoot the ball toward the end of that. That's choking.

KnickaBocka.44
01-09-2013, 03:53 PM
It depends on what kind of player they can get with Toronto's first rounder in the draft. Right now the Raptors aren't in the bottom 4 so the Thunder could be in line for a top 10 pick.

ChiSox219
01-09-2013, 04:07 PM
The only way OKC should feel dumb is if James Harden eliminates them from the playoffs. Until then both the Roxs and Thunder won. But the Roxs have acquired cheaply may I add, the NBA's top SG.


Well OKC should not feel Dumb or anything considering that just horrid finals display from harden last season. plus okc still has top record and they got a couple very good players in return for harden. Plus harden was not gonna be able to start and shine like he is now with houston

Dumb isn't the right word, that's the op trolling.

ManRam
01-09-2013, 04:17 PM
I'll admit I'm being a bit stubborn...so I'll bow out of the RWB v Harden debate. I'm really on the fence and kinda just playing Devil's Advocate. I do sincerely think the trade isn't something they regret.

However...

For the "OKC can't win with RWB". Here's my argument (besides how potent their offense has been with him at the helm).

How is RWB + Durant any different than a great wing combo...like Wade and LeBron?

We think RWB is holding this offense back because he doesn't fit into our perception of what a "real PG" is, but look at a lot of recent championship teams. They've had afterthoughts at the PG position...guys that weren't scorers OR passers. Now, let's just pretend OKC has a hole at PG...and instead they have a great SG and a great SF. Not to mention the fact that RWB has been a great passer this year. Why do we look at this team differently than those...just because RWB is a "point guard".

Do you ever say the Heat "can't win because they don't have a PG"? No, of course not.

He's not holding them back. The team needs him to score (should he take a few less shots? Yeah), they need his slashing. They need his emotion. They need his playmaking. Could Harden provide much of the same, maybe even better? Sure. But if you are saying they can't win with Westbrook because he isn't up to your PG standards....and you think Harden running the point will make the difference, well, he's no better a passer than RWB (though, he's exceptional in his own right...perhaps the best SG).

Joshtd1
01-09-2013, 04:38 PM
Harden = Manu clone...just more athletic. They play the same, do the same moves, great vision..it's crazy.

I for one am glad the Thunder traded away Harden because he is the guy that made me fear them. Personally not as afraid of them this year because of the trade. We'll see what happens though.

joseph aka Jman
01-09-2013, 04:43 PM
it does. if they would have amnestied perkins they could have kept harden.

I agree Perkins just sits in the paint and does nothing, instead lets trade a top 3 SG in the Game doesnt make sense

sammyvine
01-09-2013, 04:58 PM
I agree that they should of traded Westbrook instead of Harden, but Harden did have a horrible finals. It wasn't the missed shots that bothered me, it was the wide open ones he passed on later. Good shooters have short term memories, and he definitely was scared to shoot the ball toward the end of that. That's choking.

lebron has a bad finals in 2011, one of worst ever from a superstar. so was he choking?

it happens

FlashMacker
01-09-2013, 05:26 PM
lebron has a bad finals in 2011, one of worst ever from a superstar. so was he choking?

it happens

Terrible 2011 performance but then a good 2012 performance. Exactly. Harden had a bad performance but that doesn't mean if he gets back to the finals he'll have another poor performance.

koreancabbage
01-09-2013, 05:32 PM
Dumb isn't the right word, that's the op trolling.

you compared him as Jordan to some extent. nuff said.

SouthSideRookie
01-09-2013, 05:40 PM
Terrible 2011 performance but then a good 2012 performance. Exactly. Harden had a bad performance but that doesn't mean if he gets back to the finals he'll have another poor performance.

He was key in the western finals, the guy is just 23. Thank goodness these Gms aren't bipolar like many of us when evaluating players.

edit: this was actually meant for ztilzer3.

albertajaysfan
01-09-2013, 05:54 PM
All the people saying they should have amnestied Perkins are forgetting something very important.

This deal was to save money. If the amnesty Perkins they still have to pay a good chunk of his salary most likely. Thus costing them more money. That is an important part of the equation here.

Plus Harden actually didn't get that much extra money signing with Houston. Something like an extra 5-7 million over the course of the deal I believe it was, although I could be off on that. Personally I would have taken slightly less money to have a chance to be a part of a dynasty but obviously not every athlete thinks that way.

rocketfuel
01-09-2013, 05:55 PM
OKC could have had 3 of the league's most dominant players in the fold. Regardless of whether Harden starts, for the time he's on the floor they would still have firepower. Kind of like Miami, if one dominant player is off, another can take over and picks up the slack.

Dnovakovic099
01-09-2013, 07:00 PM
All the people saying they should have amnestied Perkins are forgetting something very important.

This deal was to save money. If the amnesty Perkins they still have to pay a good chunk of his salary most likely. Thus costing them more money. That is an important part of the equation here.

Plus Harden actually didn't get that much extra money signing with Houston. Something like an extra 5-7 million over the course of the deal I believe it was, although I could be off on that. Personally I would have taken slightly less money to have a chance to be a part of a dynasty but obviously not every athlete thinks that way.

This is why Harden is no Manu... Not taking anything away from Harden, but you have to have guys sacrifice to become a championship team. The sad part is those guys get the least respect. Manu, Bosh, Sheed in detroit,Pippen, etc. They all could have been the man somewhere but put rings over fame and yet we all suck Jordan's dick and credit him for all the rings same with Duncan and same with Bron for the last ring.

b@llhog24
01-09-2013, 07:28 PM
The ignorance in this thread is comical.

It's clear that half of those commenting don't even watch the Thunder play. They just see how well Harden is playing and anoints him the better decision. OKC got back valuable assets in Martin and Lamb was able to keep one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA on their starting line-up and has the financial flexibility to still add needed pieces to their roster.

You guys are saying trade Rondo for Westbrook? Are you on CRACK? Rondo is a lockeroom cancer he is known not to get along with his teammates and coaches. Westbrook is Kevin Durant's best/closest friend on the team and their chemistry has granted them success in many different ways. Now you're going to change that dynamic because Rondo is a better passer? Do you guys realize that despite the fact that Rondo is a better passer he has never ran a more efficient offense than Westbrook (the best offense over the past 3 years in the NBA)? I can't understand the thinking of people saying the the entire offensive dynamic of the Thunder should be changed and they're expecting them to be as effective or as efficient as it is now. They sure as hell aren't better off defensively.

Whether or not if the Thunder made the right move is still yet to be seen (depends a lot on if Martin stays on, the development of Lamb and how their draft picks pan out) but as of right now they have the best offense in the NBA, the 2nd best record in the West and Westbrook with his combined scoring and assists #s still accounts for more offense and a higher % of his team's offense than any guard not named Kobe Bryant.


PPG 2FG 3FG
Kobe 30.2 3.4 1.4 41.2
Westy 21.7 6.9 1.7 40.6
Harden 26.6 3.4 2.0 39.4

Are the Thunder better with Westy than Harden? We really don't know the answer but the notion that they are that much worse off by keeping Westy is ludicrous.

Great post. I love me some Harden, but the Westbrook hate is overwhelming.

amak316
01-09-2013, 07:46 PM
This is why Harden is no Manu... Not taking anything away from Harden, but you have to have guys sacrifice to become a championship team. The sad part is those guys get the least respect. Manu, Bosh, Sheed in detroit,Pippen, etc. They all could have been the man somewhere but put rings over fame and yet we all suck Jordan's dick and credit him for all the rings same with Duncan and same with Bron for the last ring.

Harden is only 23 and has yet to get his big payday, anything can happen, career ending injuries and who knows what else, you need to get paid at least once as a pro athlete given that you only have a ~10yr window in your entire life to make money.

Furthermore he is the 3rd best SG in the league and already was a team player enough to come off the bench without ever complaining, all the while passing out of stats because he knew that durant and others were often better scoring options. I dont know about you but for me it would be pretty hard to see all my friends on the team get max deals and take a pay cut when Im already checking my ego and playing the 6th man role when Im an allstar

To the guy that said it was alarming that when he was cold in the finals he was passing out of good looks, I doubt he would do that sort of thing on a team like the rockets. I think its pretty criminal with the kind of firepower OKC has to continue chucking when you are in a shooting slum and can just pass to Kevin Durant.

amak316
01-09-2013, 07:56 PM
And to answer the thread.. I dont think the Thunder look dumb for trading Harden. They just look poor. Sucks to be a small market team, even when you get super lucky in the draft you have to tell your young stars you cant afford them.

TheNumber37
01-09-2013, 08:06 PM
aren't they number 1 in the league? Harden is Plaing well yes, but, in an uptempo style of play as the number 1 option. sure, Harden Durant is more of a duo than Westbrook Durant.
but let's judge this summer

Fired-Up
01-09-2013, 10:20 PM
Getting rid of him may have opened the door for the Spurs and Clippers. With Harden both of the teams can't compete.

NBA_Starter
01-09-2013, 10:24 PM
Right now it doesn't look good but we have to see how the draft picks the Thunder got work out.

HouRealCoach
01-09-2013, 10:33 PM
It was great for both parties...

Harden has gotten his money, playing great, and is also the face of a franchise

OKC is still a powerhouse, and this trade has allowed Durant & Ibaka to expand their games, just like trading Jeff Green allowed Harden & Ibaka to expand more.

Thunder might be getting a top 5-10 pick this year and could trade that for a big time player if they needed too (Which will most likely happen if Toronto doesn't get their pick).

NBA_Starter
01-09-2013, 10:42 PM
It was great for both parties...

Harden has gotten his money, playing great, and is also the face of a franchise

OKC is still a powerhouse, and this trade has allowed Durant & Ibaka to expand their games, just like trading Jeff Green allowed Harden & Ibaka to expand more.

Thunder might be getting a top 5-10 pick this year and could trade that for a big time player if they needed too (Which will most likely happen if Toronto doesn't get their pick).

Very well said

97NYer
01-09-2013, 10:43 PM
Harden is so much better than Westbrook

NoahH
01-10-2013, 11:38 AM
Was OKC supposed to let him walk? I am more disappointed that Harden didnt accept slightly less per year to play with Durant and Westbrook. OKC did a fine job of making the best out of a bad situation.

Look at Harden now tho. Probanly a top 10 player in the league this wouldn't be the case if he stayed

kenzo400
01-10-2013, 01:44 PM
The first thought that came to my mind. When players realize they have potential they leave for the stardom and money.

In the long-run its a bad decision as he will never win in Houston. The Thunder will be in the running every year for the next 5.

It's not about stardom. Regardless of how much the Thunder will win, why should Harden limit himself by playing for OKC? Although he would have stayed if they offered him the money, I still think going to the Rockets was a far better career move.

If you were to take the extreme example of a guy who can put up 28 ppg on a worse team or stay on a good team and play 20 minutes a game and average 9 ppg, what choice do you think he should make?

poleandreel
01-10-2013, 01:59 PM
The ignorance in this thread is comical.

It's clear that half of those commenting don't even watch the Thunder play. They just see how well Harden is playing and anoints him the better decision. OKC got back valuable assets in Martin and Lamb was able to keep one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA on their starting line-up and has the financial flexibility to still add needed pieces to their roster.

You guys are saying trade Rondo for Westbrook? Are you on CRACK? Rondo is a lockeroom cancer he is known not to get along with his teammates and coaches. Westbrook is Kevin Durant's best/closest friend on the team and their chemistry has granted them success in many different ways. Now you're going to change that dynamic because Rondo is a better passer? Do you guys realize that despite the fact that Rondo is a better passer he has never ran a more efficient offense than Westbrook (the best offense over the past 3 years in the NBA)? I can't understand the thinking of people saying the the entire offensive dynamic of the Thunder should be changed and they're expecting them to be as effective or as efficient as it is now. They sure as hell aren't better off defensively.

Whether or not if the Thunder made the right move is still yet to be seen (depends a lot on if Martin stays on, the development of Lamb and how their draft picks pan out) but as of right now they have the best offense in the NBA, the 2nd best record in the West and Westbrook with his combined scoring and assists #s still accounts for more offense and a higher % of his team's offense than any guard not named Kobe Bryant.


PPG 2FG 3FG
Kobe 30.2 3.4 1.4 41.2
Westy 21.7 6.9 1.7 40.6
Harden 26.6 3.4 2.0 39.4

Are the Thunder better with Westy than Harden? We really don't know the answer but the notion that they are that much worse off by keeping Westy is ludicrous.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:

This man is a ****ing genius and rational. I love it.

farren.louis
01-10-2013, 02:11 PM
OKC did the right thing they have two superstars .. Getting rid of harden helps DDurant & Westbrook get better (WHICH IS SCARY) Ibaka is the X-factor, the more he picks up his game the better off they will be! Like Miami the hey have Great Wing defenders Westbrrok Sheph. Durant , but they have bigs also! this is a great team 26-8 they arent doing so bad! Not to mention westbrook is still learning the hardest position. This team is going to dominate the west for years to come

SoFreshNsoClean
01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

LMFAO hillarious sig

cheesypacker
01-10-2013, 02:49 PM
maybe not one of the best trades in history.

Singhkumar9219
01-10-2013, 02:57 PM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

He's the anchor for their defense ..

La11
01-10-2013, 03:05 PM
I don't get how this was a bad trade for the Thunder. They saved money and pretty much got 3 first round picks and 2 of them were lottery's( Lamb and toronto's protected lottery pick) It's looking good for Houston because of how Harden is putting up the numbers on a Rockets team but as a team OKC is having a great season with K.Martin taking over Harden's role.

scaramantula
01-10-2013, 03:24 PM
ummm there a first place team correct? i dont think they care

b@llhog24
01-10-2013, 03:24 PM
Yeah, they should've traded Westbrook for Rondo and signed Harden. Why didn't they just amnesty Perkins to give Harden that extra $$?? He literally does nothing.

He's the anchor for their defense ..

Serge Ibaka died?

Nats_vcu-Okc35
02-09-2013, 02:53 PM
I don't get how this was a bad trade for the Thunder. They saved money and pretty much got 3 first round picks and 2 of them were lottery's( Lamb and toronto's protected lottery pick) It's looking good for Houston because of how Harden is putting up the numbers on a Rockets team but as a team OKC is having a great season with K.Martin taking over Harden's role.

This. And as for the intense disdain for westbrook and his style of play...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1506545-is-the-constant-critique-of-russell-westbrooks-game-fair-or-foul

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-09-2013, 03:19 PM
The guys averaging almost 27 a game on 45% shooting along with 5 and 5. 10 FTAs a game.

This was an incredibly dumb move, despite their record this year. They are still a top team, but their max potential, especially winning out over Miami, will show in the playoffs.

Harden is already a better player than Westbrook is and not nearly the ballhog. Durant and Harden would've been all that Wade and LeBron could've been if they STARTED their careers together.

Too bad we'll never know. The Thunder could've just ponied up the money to keep Harden, but then again, the small market teams screwed themselves with this move. They tried to put a fork in the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Clippers, Nets, Celtics --- all the big spenders and they put a fork in themselves with the luxury tax.

The thunder would be heavy favorites to win the ship this year if they had harden.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-09-2013, 03:20 PM
ummm there a first place team correct? i dont think they care

They will if the get to the finals vs the heat.

bringinwood
02-09-2013, 03:45 PM
The Thunder don't look stupid...

Look what kind of numbers Martin put up in Houston...

Its a one man show...

Westbrook could put those numbers up...

Rondo is a head case whose immaturity is masked by a strong locker room...

The thunder made the right moves

JasonJohnHorn
02-09-2013, 03:52 PM
This was a financial trade. Everybody knew that. OKC didn't have the money to pay him, so the would either have had him play as the third option this season at a discounted rate and then lose him for nothing in free agency, or make a trade to bring in a more affordable player, as well as two first-round draft picks, one in Lamb, and the other in Toronto's pick in this year's draft. So the Thunder got a great shooter in Martin, who is more affordable than was Harden (even though he's making more this season), they still have the second best record in the league, they got a promising young SG in Lamb and a high first round pick in this years darft (potentially a #1 pick!). So, firstly, it is FAR to early to suggest trading Harden was a mistake, because all the pieces aren't in yet, and secondly, the trade was done as a means of reducing salary and keeping the team competitive, which OKC did.

So, no, OKC was not dumb for trading him. They made the best possible move they could have made given the situation.

La11
02-09-2013, 04:03 PM
How is this a dumb trade? Win win for both teams and I like the deal better for OKC.

Blitzbolt
02-09-2013, 04:07 PM
I don't think Lamb will ever be good since he has KD getting all the minutes that's what I don't get.

GrkGawdofWalkz
02-09-2013, 04:10 PM
When you consider you acquired a player who is average 15-16PPG, at a higher percentage than at any point in his career, a rookie level bench scorer with upside and a lottery pick in 2013 and you're second in the west...no Harden is not missed. However, I'm sure they would have preferred keeping him at their price.

DallasTrilla23
02-09-2013, 06:54 PM
I think Harden developed as far as he could in OKC. He wasn't going to reach his full potential as the 3rd option behind Westbrook and Durant.

Martin is a better shooter and fits better in OKC. The deal worked out for both teams.

Alayla
02-09-2013, 07:00 PM
Should've traded Westy, IMO Harden fits better then Westbrook does.

Russel is just to inconsistant while Harden is proving to be one of the best SG

Westbrook is the 2nd best PG in the nba this year

Baller1
02-09-2013, 07:08 PM
Yes, it was dumb as ****.

Harden on OKC still makes them easy favorites.

Mr_Amaziing
02-09-2013, 07:21 PM
Well its still early to tell. After this season I can see us moving up to draft Nerlens. Noel(Possibly packaging Toronto's 1st, Mav's 1st, Okc's 1st to get the #1 or #2 pick). Then in a year or two our team would develop to be one of the greatest / youngest team in NBA history.


Pg- Westbrook / Jackson
Sg- Sefo / Lamb / Liggins
Sf- Durant / Jones
Pf- Ibaka / Collison
C- Noel / Thabeet / Orton


And ino people say that Noel is a Pf but we actually play better playing small ball.

When Dwight Howard first came to the NBA he wasn't really strong. But he put the effort and add a lot of muscle. I can see Noel following Howard's footsteps

mdm692
02-09-2013, 07:22 PM
They should of paid Harden his money then trade Westbrook to PHX for Gortat, Dragic and a couple of 1st. They amnesty Perkins and are left with a starting 5 of Dragic-Harden-KD-Ibaka-Gortat. Suns would of probably given them Dudley as well. Everybody wins.

RLundi
02-09-2013, 07:24 PM
Honestly they should've traded Westbrook. I can't stand his erratic play. If they never win a ring, they can thank him for that.

RipCity32
02-09-2013, 07:59 PM
Well its still early to tell. After this season I can see us moving up to draft Nerlens. Noel(Possibly packaging Toronto's 1st, Mav's 1st, Okc's 1st to get the #1 or #2 pick). Then in a year or two our team would develop to be one of the greatest / youngest team in NBA history.


Pg- Westbrook / Jackson
Sg- Sefo / Lamb / Liggins
Sf- Durant / Jones
Pf- Ibaka / Collison
C- Noel / Thabeet / Orton


And ino people say that Noel is a Pf but we actually play better playing small ball.

When Dwight Howard first came to the NBA he wasn't really strong. But he put the effort and add a lot of muscle. I can see Noel following Howard's footsteps

Noel reminds me of a little Dennis Rodman.OKC would be unstoppable if they got him.

Derick713
02-09-2013, 08:04 PM
I have to admit the Thunder look dumb for breaking up an incredible core that no team in the NBA could match. It's not everyday a team has an elite PG, SG, and SF all of whom are in their early 20's and near the top at their respective positions. The Thunder could of traded James Harden, Kendrick Perkins, and Eric Maynor and got Dwight Howard and kept him away from the Lakers. The Thunder helped the Rockets in a big way and it might come back to bit them if the Rockets can surround Harden with a little more talent.

Derick713
02-09-2013, 08:10 PM
The Thunder have missed out on a chance at a dynasty type roster because of finances. They could of had Tyson Chandler for nothing. They are paying Perkins what the Celtics are paying Jeff Green.

What they almost had!

PG- Russell Westbrook/Eric Maynor/
SG- James Harden/Thabo Sefalosha/
SF- Kevin Durant/
PF- Jeff Green/Serge Ibaka/
SC- Tyson Chandler/Nick Collison/

Mr_Amaziing
02-09-2013, 08:19 PM
Noel reminds me of a little Dennis Rodman.OKC would be unstoppable if they got him.

That's why I'm crossing my fingering wishing that Okc move up and draft him

RipCity32
02-09-2013, 08:22 PM
That's why I'm crossing my fingering wishing that Okc move up and draft him

He will probably be the #1 overall pick in my opinion.

boateng
02-09-2013, 09:02 PM
I think Harden developed as far as he could in OKC. He wasn't going to reach his full potential as the 3rd option behind Westbrook and Durant.

Martin is a better shooter and fits better in OKC. The deal worked out for both teams.

How the hell does martin ''fit better with okc''

harden was great for okc. just because he had a poor finals doesnt mean the rest of his career was bad.

DR_1
02-09-2013, 09:02 PM
They don't look dumb at all, they needed to stay under the hard cap. Houston GM just looks like a genius. Can't fault Presti just cause Houston made a good deal.

boateng
02-09-2013, 09:03 PM
He will probably be the #1 overall pick in my opinion.

this

even if he isnt he will go no.2
no way okc gets him imo

Verbal Christ
02-09-2013, 10:00 PM
one of the best teams in NBA history!?!? c'mon man. they need to pop a few bottles before those types of superlatives are handed out. plus if the thunder are that good now, why would anyone be in a big rush to give up a top 5 pick to them? its cool to like your team and all but lets keep things in perspective.

GREATNESS ONE
02-09-2013, 10:20 PM
If I was in the Thunders situation, I would have amnestied Perkins and traded Westbrook for Howard.

njnets
02-09-2013, 10:23 PM
if they werent gonna offer him a max deal then they arent dumb bc they would have lost him for nothing.

OceanSpray
02-09-2013, 10:28 PM
How the hell does martin ''fit better with okc''

harden was great for okc. just because he had a poor finals doesnt mean the rest of his career was bad.

Because Durant and Westbrook can do everything Harden does but better. They don't need three ball handlers sharing the ball. OKC needed someone who can provide scoring and play off the ball. Martin can do exactly that. Just like how Harden is averaging crazy numbers without Durant and Westbrook, Durant is also averaging those numbers because he doesn't have to play with Harden. It's not who the better player is. Martin is obviously not better than Harden. I actually hated OKC trading Harden for Martin and a few picks. Then I realized that Martin fits their system and far exceeded what was expected.

clutchfan
02-09-2013, 11:40 PM
Because Durant and Westbrook can do everything Harden does but better. They don't need three ball handlers sharing the ball. OKC needed someone who can provide scoring and play off the ball. Martin can do exactly that. Just like how Harden is averaging crazy numbers without Durant and Westbrook, Durant is also averaging those numbers because he doesn't have to play with Harden. It's not who the better player is. Martin is obviously not better than Harden. I actually hated OKC trading Harden for Martin and a few picks. Then I realized that Martin fits their system and far exceeded what was expected.

What does Westbrook do better than Harden other than dunk the ball?

mzgrizz
02-10-2013, 12:16 AM
Well, no, are you looking at the W-L records or something else? They had to move salary and at least they got a good player in Kevin Martin as opposed to our brilliant FO

JNoel
02-10-2013, 12:18 AM
It was dumb only in that they traded Harden and not Westbrook.

tht_one_guy
02-10-2013, 05:12 AM
i think it all depends on what Martin does cause if i am not mistaking isnt his contract up after this year and if Jeremy Lamb develops into a good NBA player

Trueblue2
02-10-2013, 07:02 AM
It's actually a pretty smart move, they traded for a player that's a better fit on their roster in Martin, a lottery pick, and a young stud with a high ceiling. Their team isn't missing a beat this year and they look better salary wise and talent wise for the future. It's never easy parting with a player like Harden, but in a small market that can't afford the luxury tax it's a decision that had to be made. Westbrook gets so much hate on this site it's ridiculous, OKC had to choose between the two guards, they chose the one that didn't disappear in the finals, it's really that simple.

ldawg
02-10-2013, 08:01 AM
brilliant move if u ask

ldawg
02-10-2013, 08:04 AM
brilliant move if u ask you cant over look the financial side of a team.

rapsjaysfan88
02-10-2013, 08:30 AM
I'm curious why okc never started kd, wb and harden together. That would have been an amazing starting unit.

Huntey
02-10-2013, 09:30 AM
I think they look smart. They knew what they had in harden and managed to get a good replacement with Kevin Martin. They also got lamb (a lottery pick) and Toronto's first round pick. That's a great deal. Best part is that they're still winning.

Now, I'd prefer harden to Westbrook but either way the Thunder would still be a great team. Considering that in the west they're up against teams like the clippers and spurs, an athletic PG who can defend probably helps them out more so I understand their decision.

Verbal Christ
02-10-2013, 03:24 PM
and what? the rockets didnt come out smelling roses themselves? they got the best piece in the whole trade. all rocket fans are ecstatic, and probably wouldnt have winced at having to give up MORE to get the guy. not only is he a tier 1 player, but he's also very marketable and hasnt to this point got caught up in any nonsense off the court.

FOXHOUND
02-10-2013, 08:56 PM
So far so good, as the improving play of Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka, who they were able to keep thanks to trading Harden, have made up for the difference between Harden and Martin. Martin has filled it pretty good, but the answer to this question lies in the playoffs.

Harden has had his struggles in the playoffs, especially those first timers. The WCF against Dallas he was awful, but then he did very good vs the Spurs the next year, as did the rest of the team. Against Miami in the Finals he was awful, but if they got back would he brush that off and come back strong like the WCF the year before?

Martin, on the other hand, has only been in the playoffs once. He was a disaster in those playoffs, although that was years ago and he has a much smaller role now. Will he contribute like he has this regular season, which would be more than enough for this team? Or will he choke again and be a useless mess?

To me the this question will only be answered when we see what Kevin Martin does this postseason, at least in the short term. Getting Lamb was the long term replacement for Harden, and the Toronto pick is very nice. It's a win-win so far, but ultimately OKC's success needs to be judged on whether or not they get a ring.

ManRam
02-10-2013, 09:00 PM
I'm sure it's been said, but they have a .760 winning percentage. That's an improvement on last year. This is a valid question, but it would be more valid if they were struggling. They aren't, at all. They've actually been better offensively this year than last.

seikou8
02-10-2013, 09:03 PM
What does Westbrook do better than Harden other than dunk the ball?

defend, rebound and pass westbrook hate is laughable

FOXHOUND
02-10-2013, 09:09 PM
defend, rebound and pass westbrook hate is laughable

Just the times man, just the times. Sometimes the more efficient player isn't the better player, and that is the case with Westbrook and Harden. Harden is damn good, but he's not quite as good as Westbrook. The advanced stat age will have thoughts like that, though.

DallasTrilla23
02-10-2013, 11:42 PM
How the hell does martin ''fit better with okc''

harden was great for okc. just because he had a poor finals doesnt mean the rest of his career was bad.

because harden's game was more one on one, pick and roll. OKC already has Westbrook and Durant who are best with the ball on their hands, breaking down defenses. Martin plays better off-ball, spot up shooting and things like that.

Harden is the better player but Martin fits better.