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View Full Version : "Best I've played in a while" - Why Blaming Kobe doesnt add up



Chronz
01-07-2013, 04:46 PM
This is probably the best I've played in a while.
I've had years the last few years where I've felt pretty good but we kept my minutes down so the numbers didn't look the same, but this year I feel pretty good.



Click for Skip's reaction to Kobe's quote (http://youtu.be/xAYA6Dt9NHM?t=33s)



For those who want to be spared of Skip's ramblings he makes 2 major points.

1) That Kobe being on a .500 team should disqualify him from playing at a higher level.
2) That Kobe should know better as a leader, than to isolate his play aside from his struggling teammates.




The reason I bring this up is because Im pretty sure most of us know that no individual should be held fully responsible for his teams ultimate level of play, and with Kobe playing his best ball in years in seems counter-intuitive to think hes the one holding the team back, yet there are many who claim otherwise. So something isn't adding up.





From what I've seen, the anti-Kobe establishment argues that Kobe's own individual brilliance somehow detracts from his teammates chances to shine. But that would be arguing that a 5x Champ has somehow lost his zen, knowing what it takes to win and utilizing the talent alongside him.

Which if you've listened to Kobe over the years, he makes it abundantly clear that he is all about sacrifices. To his development, his numbers, accolades etc... He wants us to know this, why would he all of sudden prioritize his own play above the teams, when it gos against his entire philosophy?








The more analytical take is that Kobe's selfishness takes away from certain key players (Dwight, Pau, Nash) but hes been without Nash most of the year, Pau has clearly been hindered with his role and health, and Dwight was scheduled to make his season debut around this time of the season. Who exactly should he have deferred to?

Lets consider some facts revolving around Kobe's 2nd in Command for most of the year, Dwight:


Dwight has had 285 Post Up attempts, thats 46.8% of his offense. He has turned the ball over on roughly 20% of those opportunities. So yes hes scoring on 49% of the shot attempts he gets, which is pretty good. But overall hes only scoring on 43.9% of those. You really want him taking more possessions from Kobe?
Synergy logs him at .79Pts Per Possession. So giving Dwight the ball hasn't really worked out for the Lakers. Another point people miss, Kobe does his chucking when Dwight is on the bench.

Kobes Stats Per-36 Minutes
With Dwight: 19.1FGA - 7.2FTA
W/Out Dwight: 24.7FGA - 10.2FTA


An interesting trend is that the Kobe centric offense without Dwight(+9.4) has actually fared better than lineups that include Dwight+Kobe(+3). The Dwight centered offenses without Kobe on the floor however have been downright dreadful (-11PTS)



Isn't it possible that these players have needed Kobe to play his current style?


I only agree that Nash should become a bigger part of the offense, and I think we are already beginning to see that. And people should keep in mind that D'Antoni is purposely playing Kobe+Nash almost extensively right now. Not sure if thats to force start chemistry the way the Rockets did with Lin+Harden or if they truly dont see the value in having Kobe and Nash split minutes without each other.

JiffyMix88
01-07-2013, 04:48 PM
I'll pass on Skip. He has played his best in quite sometime but the team doesn't have and won't have any chemistry. Nothing else to it.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 04:49 PM
PS This isnt one of those posts where we say Dwight has never had a post game, its one where we recognize hes not the efficient go-to option he once was. Lets hope he recovers because we have so few dominant bigmen.

JasonJohnHorn
01-07-2013, 05:01 PM
Dwight's post play has improved over the year, but the turnovers are still there and they are as big a part of the reason why this team struggles as his free throw shooting.

That said, while Kobe is playing better ball than he has for at least a couple of seasons, it is clear that when he does not have the proper coaching in place, his game, though good statistically, does not mean the team will do well.

My criticism of Kobe has always been that he is a selfish player who wants the ball, coupled with the fact that he has never been the facilitator that Magic, Bird and Duncan were.

As for the post-up on Diwghts' part, he has always been better on the pick-and-roll to teh basket plays... running plays for him to post up don't always make sense, especially when you have a post player as good as Gasol to go to, who has been forced to rely on jumpers more this season.

'Antoni, in my opinion, is teh key issue here. He does not know how to get others invovled. We saw as soon as Phil Jackson left Kobe's shot attemps went up last year, and are up this year, from when Phil was running the team.

And I hate Skip... can't stand him, but it is important to note that individual play doesn't mean $#!T at the end of the year if you don't even make the playoffs. Mitch Richmond was one of the greatest shooting guards the game has ever seen, but he's not in the HOF because he played on a perenial loser. People knock Kevin Love because he's put up big numbers on a losing team. So Kobe is having a good statistical year? Yes. Why would he be excited about that when his team isn't even in theplayoff picture right now?

The Lakers aren't losing because of Kobe, but they aren't winning because of him either.... does it really matter if he leads the league in scoring if his team fails to make the playoffs?

GiantsSwaGG
01-07-2013, 05:07 PM
Kobe is a ball hog

Sactown
01-07-2013, 05:12 PM
I would say Skip is right about one thing, Kobe needs to work on what he says in the press, saying you're playing at your best, just puts unnecessary pressure on everyone else, and your coach.

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 05:14 PM
Which if you've listened to Kobe over the years, he makes it abundantly clear that he is all about sacrifices. To his development, his numbers, accolades etc... He wants us to know this.

And you actually believe that...? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Kobe has never sacrificed anything from an individual perspective and the only reason he has ever wanted to win Championships is because it enhances his own personal legacy.

He is all about himself, his numbers, his legacy.
His inability to put aside his ego and sacrifice in 03 and 04 were a big part of why those Laker teams failed in terms of chemistry and performance when it mattered.

Him coming out and saying things like "I have sacrificed" makes him look better so of course he'll say that.
It doesn't mean its true.

Kobe wants you to think like his biggest stans...

xxplayerxx23
01-07-2013, 05:18 PM
Kobe needs to give Dwight and Nash the ball more. Imagen how many better looks he will get when Dwight is on his game

shep33
01-07-2013, 05:24 PM
Great stuff Chronz :clap:

nickdymez
01-07-2013, 05:26 PM
lol. Its all Kobe's fault!

Good post Chronz for real. While Kobe is putting up better numbers, his team is in fact losing. But Kobe is doing what Kobe does best, Score the ball.. Thats what he's asked to do..

valade16
01-07-2013, 05:29 PM
From what I've seen, the anti-Kobe establishment argues that Kobe's own individual brilliance somehow detracts from his teammates chances to shine. But that would be arguing that a 5x Champ has somehow lost his zen, knowing what it takes to win and utilizing the talent alongside him.

That is absolutely true. He lost his zen, Phil Jackson, who was able to balance him out. Phil could demand sacrifice from Kobe because he has the credentials and resume to demand it.

Do you think a guy as arrogant/confident as Kobe is going to listen to any of the people currently on the Lakers, all of whom have 0 rings?

I doubt it.

Avenged
01-07-2013, 05:30 PM
Kobe plays great, team loses - Kobe's fault.

Kobe plays great, team wins - Pau or Shaq is the reason.

:)

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 05:31 PM
I don't even think it is all Kobe's fault.
I am not sure if Kobe even deserves a significant part of the blame.

However consider this.
When Kobe starts "feeling it" he tends to try to keep scoring again and again and again.
When he does this he takes everyone else out of the offense.

Prime Kobe could get his 25-30ppg while consistently giving touches to other players and picking his spots.
He didn't dominate the ball for long stretches the way he is now.

Kobe is older so maybe its harder for him to turn it on and off like that so when he is on he trys to keep shooting until he feels off.

shep33
01-07-2013, 05:36 PM
How much of the Kobe criticism is just people not liking him as a person? I mean he's been the most efficient SG in the NBA, heck he has a top 5 PER. We criticized him in the past because he was inefficient, now we're criticizing him because he's too efficient?

I have no problem with people admitting they don't like him, but the criticism is going overboard some times.

Not once has anybody mentioned how poor the Lakers defense is, or how the Lakers bench is one of the worst in the NBA, or even how Pau is having the worst season of his career.

el hidalgo
01-07-2013, 05:37 PM
I don't even think it is all Kobe's fault.
I am not sure if Kobe even deserves a significant part of the blame.

However consider this.
When Kobe starts "feeling it" he tends to try to keep scoring again and again and again.
When he does this he takes everyone else out of the offense.

Prime Kobe could get his 25-30ppg while consistently giving touches to other players and picking his spots.
He didn't dominate the ball for long stretches the way he is now.

Kobe is older so maybe its harder for him to turn it on and off like that so when he is on he trys to keep shooting until he feels off.

exactly. its hard for his teammates to get in grooves when he takes 40 shots some games. gasol and dwight need more touches.

Bruno
01-07-2013, 05:42 PM
Kobe plays great, team loses - Kobe's fault.

Kobe plays great, team wins - Pau or Shaq is the reason.

:)

homer. ;)

Bruno
01-07-2013, 05:42 PM
Kobe plays great, team loses - Kobe's fault.

Kobe plays great, team wins - Pau or Shaq is the reason.

:)

homer. ;)

Bruno
01-07-2013, 05:42 PM
good points chronz.

Bruno
01-07-2013, 05:46 PM
Coach D hate to separate Kobe and Dwight from getting into a fist fight!

https://twitter.com/kobebryant/status/288389228960829442/photo/1

they're trolling hard, so is the media.

BALLER R
01-07-2013, 05:48 PM
The lakers pieces just don't fit well together. They need a couple young players and a 3pt specialist.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 05:55 PM
And you actually believe that...? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Not 100% I dont, like his minutes excuse above doesn't add up but I do believe in his mind he is sacrificing. The point being, hes the same guy hes always been. Kobe isn't doing anything now that he wouldn't have done in the past.


His inability to put aside his ego and sacrifice in 03 and 04 were a big part of why those Laker teams failed in terms of chemistry and performance when it mattered.
Somewhat agree but hes come a long way since then.

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 05:57 PM
Kobe isn't doing anything now that he wouldn't have done in the past.
Eh... but Kobe is on a different team now with a different coach and I don't believe he has always been the same mentally.

His ego and personality has changed and developed over the years.

He is also not physically the same player he was earlier in his career or capable of the same things.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 05:59 PM
exactly. its hard for his teammates to get in grooves when he takes 40 shots some games. gasol and dwight need more touches.

Shouldn't your play dictate how many touches you get? If they want more touches, shouldn't they be less sloppy?

Or do you think its in the best interest of the Lakers long term future if they sacrifice all chances of winning in hopes that Dwight/Pau eventually return to form?

Hellcrooner
01-07-2013, 06:01 PM
You lost me at " kobe has sacrificed".

He has sacrifized JACK in his career.

When he was young he was FORCED to sacrifice ( HIS NUMBERS) because Shaq was the Man, and btw the whole thing went to hell when whe no longer felt like doing it.
Worht mentionin that in 03 and 04 when he stopped sacrificing his numbers the thing went to HELL and the ring winning stopped
He shoots whenever he wants.
He has to be the top scorer of the team EVERY GAME, whenver a temamte is outscoring him in the first half he shoots like crazy the second half.
Whenever he is near to a milestone he shoots like crazy.

He takes all the shots in close games in the fourth quarters ( o yeah im impressed a lot with his unselfishness when he starts the game playing team game but in the 4th quarter he starts jacking up shots when triple teamed).
+
TO hell with the blinders.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 06:02 PM
He is also not physically the same player he was earlier in his career or capable of the same things.
Too vague. Kobes career spans 17+ seasons, the point being raised is that Kobe is a BETTER player than the one hes been of recent memory. He certainly thinks so, the stats certainly back it up, its just the team success thats lacking and I dont think that should reflect on him one iota. Then again, Ive changed my mind on Kobe before. Considering the numbers tho, I dont see what more he can be doing.

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 06:04 PM
Shouldn't your play dictate how many touches you get? If they want more touches, shouldn't they be less sloppy?

Yes but playing well individually doesn't necessarily make ball dominance a good thing if you are on a team like the current Lakers.


Or do you think its in the best interest of the Lakers long term future if they sacrifice all chances of winning in hopes that Dwight/Pau eventually return to form?
Back in 2012 I thought Kobe was being way too ball dominant and selfish offensively in the regular season and not allowing Gasol and Bynum to carry enough of the offensive load.

I predicted they would fail that year due to Kobe carrying too large a load.

In the playoffs Kobe played even more selfishly and of course they failed as I predicted.

In that case I felt forcing Bynum/Pau to carry a bigger load (even if they didn't produce with it) was their only chance to contend.

I feel they may have the same issues this year (although I am not 100% sure).
If Kobe doesn't get his other offensive players playing more effectively they will fail again no matter how well he plays individually.

lakers4sho
01-07-2013, 06:08 PM
Interesting thing is that Nash was interviewed the other night after the clipper game and he said that (when) the other guys werent making shots, he always goes to the most efficient option (in his opinion?) which is dump the rock to kobe and let him go to work.

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 06:08 PM
When he was young he was FORCED to sacrifice ( HIS NUMBERS) because Shaq was the Man, and btw the whole thing went to hell when whe no longer felt like doing it..
He has NEVER sacrificed.
That is pro-Kobe propoganda spit by the man himself.

He never sacrificed even in those years.

In the 01-02 playoffs he averaged 22.5 FGA.
In the 08-10 playoffs he averaged 22.5 FGA.

Yes in 00 he averaged only 18 FGA but that was already more then he could handle.
You don't want to give a 50%TS player inefficient offensive player more touches.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 06:18 PM
TO hell with the blinders.

But your admitting Kobe has been like this a good while right, it was good enough to win alot more than they are winning now and hes playing better now than he was then, so how can it be on him?

Unless your saying hes become an entirely new form of cancer we haven't seen from him in a very long time. I dont buy that, this team may be underachieving but it is more talented in terms of name value than actual talent.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 06:27 PM
Yes but playing well individually doesn't necessarily make ball dominance a good thing if you are on a team like the current Lakers.
Based on what tho, he was forced into being the defacto PG for much of the year. I have my own opinion on how the Lakers should have played but Kobe being more ball dominant wasn't my issue, it was who he shared the floor with. If it were up to me I would have started Meeks with Kobe in the backcourt and have Kobe become even more ball dominant. But I dont think it makes a night and day difference here either.



Back in 2012 I thought Kobe was being way too ball dominant and selfish offensively in the regular season and not allowing Gasol and Bynum to carry enough of the offensive load.Maybe-maybe not, I think Phil has hinted at this but I truly believe maximizing Bynum's post touches came at the expense of Pau's game. It may have been necessary given Pau's gradual decline but that had very little to with Kobe, the Lakers were one of the better post up teams in the league, hard to say the bigs werent utilized, its very hard to force feed 1 big, much less 2.
I would argue Bynum was over-utilized but the lockout and his injury this year have clouded my perspective on that.


In that case I felt forcing Bynum/Pau to carry a bigger load (even if they didn't produce with it) was their only chance to contend.
I think the bigs should show something before getting it but I see what you mean. Kind of wish Kobe sat some games so we could see how the Lakers operate for a larger sample of work without him. Because thus far I think the Lakers would be far worse if Kobe did less.

beliges
01-07-2013, 06:32 PM
You lost me at " kobe has sacrificed".

He has sacrifized JACK in his career.

When he was young he was FORCED to sacrifice ( HIS NUMBERS) because Shaq was the Man, and btw the whole thing went to hell when whe no longer felt like doing it.
Worht mentionin that in 03 and 04 when he stopped sacrificing his numbers the thing went to HELL.

He hasnt sacrificed JACK the rest of his career.
He shoots whenever he wants.

Whenever he is near to a milestone he shoots like crazy.

He takes all the shots in close games in the fourth quarters ( o yeah im impressed a lot with his unselfishness when he starts the game playing team game but in the 4th quarter he starts jacking up shots when triple teamed).
+
TO hell with the blinders.

Heres one thing I dont understand when it comes to this argument. Kobe, being Kobe, has managed to become the most dominant player (in terms of winning) of this era and generation. You may call him a "ball hog", "chucker," a "bad teammate," and etc.. but he has proven that he knows how to win, moreso than anyone else playing. So, with that said, shouldnt others alter their games to fit with Kobe's? Especially when these others have never had the same success Kobe has had. I dont know, but I dont think someone just becomes the most winningest player of a generation from not understanding how to win.

Kobe doesnt seem to be the problem here. In fact, Kobe is actually playing spectacularly this season. It seems he is getting some criticism for his teammates underperforming. Maybe thats warranted. However, Kobe has always elevated the play of his teammates, even when he had guys like Smush, Luke, Cook etc... It was no coincidence those guys couldnt find roles in the league without Kobe by their side.

I guess the point I am trying to make is enough with the dumb Kobe criticisms. Kobe is Kobe and he shouldnt change that. He is proven to be the greatest player of his era. His teammates should make more of a concerted effort to match his intensity and his preparation.

showtym24
01-07-2013, 06:35 PM
Top 5 offensive team. Offense isnt the problem.

SirSkyHook
01-07-2013, 06:35 PM
Kobe plays great, team loses - Kobe's fault.

Kobe plays great, team wins - Pau or Shaq is the reason.

:)

pretty much this lol go figure

showtym24
01-07-2013, 06:35 PM
PISS POOR effort on defense is the main problem.

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 06:38 PM
I think the bigs should show something before getting it but I see what you mean. Kind of wish Kobe sat some games so we could see how the Lakers operate for a larger sample of work without him. Because thus far I think the Lakers would be far worse if Kobe did less.
His play this year has also changed my perspective.
If he could maintain his current level of offensive production and efficiency with good consistency then maybe the bigs wouldn't have to produce as much.

However this raises another issue.

Kobe is 34 years old and is in his 17th season.
I find it hard to believe he is physically capable of maintaining this level of play and handling this many mpg over an entire season and playoff run without a huge decline in his level of play eventually even if he stops playing defense entirely.


Kobe, being Kobe, has managed to become the most dominant player (in terms of winning) of this era and generation.
:facepalm:
Kobe over his career has won 2 titles as the leader and only 1 title as the clear cut best player on his own team.

He is hardly some All-Time great winner or the biggest winner of his own era where guys like Shaq, Duncan and eventually Lebron all have/will surpass him by a significant margin in that sense.

SirSkyHook
01-07-2013, 06:40 PM
Heres one thing I dont understand when it comes to this argument. Kobe, being Kobe, has managed to become the most dominant player (in terms of winning) of this era and generation. You may call him a "ball hog", "chucker," a "bad teammate," and etc.. but he has proven that he knows how to win, moreso than anyone else playing. So, with that said, shouldnt others alter their games to fit with Kobe's? Especially when these others have never had the same success Kobe has had. I dont know, but I dont think someone just becomes the most winningest player of a generation from not understanding how to win.

Kobe doesnt seem to be the problem here. In fact, Kobe is actually playing spectacularly this season. It seems he is getting some criticism for his teammates underperforming. Maybe thats warranted. However, Kobe has always elevated the play of his teammates, even when he had guys like Smush, Luke, Cook etc... It was no coincidence those guys couldnt find roles in the league without Kobe by their side.

I guess the point I am trying to make is enough with the dumb Kobe criticisms. Kobe is Kobe and he shouldnt change that. He is proven to be the greatest player of his era. His teammates should make more of a concerted effort to match his intensity and his preparation.

Stop!!!! YOUR MAKING TO MUCH SENSE!!!!!! but seriously its also funny when people say he won because of Phil, but Phil won becuase of Jordan, and Pop won becuase Timmy.

Kobe hate is funny :)

beliges
01-07-2013, 06:45 PM
Stop!!!! YOUR MAKING TO MUCH SENSE!!!!!! but seriously its also funny when people say he won because of Phil, but Phil won becuase of Jordan, and Pop won becuase Timmy.

Kobe hate is funny :)

PJax was certainly a major reason for Kobe winning. He learned a lot from Phil and always reflects his appreciation for PJax. But the dude is one of the 7 or 8 greatest players to have ever played the game and has dominated moreso than anyone in this league since Magic and MJ. The dude knows how to win and how to perform. He has even surpassed the other all time greats of his era such as Duncan and Shaq as far as career achievements and success. I understand why he gets criticized a lot because it simply comes with the territory. But most people have to reach real real hard to try to make sense of some of the criticism.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 07:07 PM
Top 5 offensive team. Offense isnt the problem.
Amazing how high they are given what they have had to work with for much of the year I think.


PISS POOR effort on defense is the main problem.
True, in a simpler world this excuse would be enough. The problem is that maybe the Lakers were overrated on both ends, they havent had much time to gel together but they havent been the offensive powerhouse I was hoping for in their short time together.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 07:16 PM
Heres one thing I dont understand when it comes to this argument. Kobe, being Kobe, has managed to become the most dominant player (in terms of winning) of this era and generation. You may call him a "ball hog", "chucker," a "bad teammate," and etc.. but he has proven that he knows how to win, moreso than anyone else playing. So, with that said, shouldnt others alter their games to fit with Kobe's? Especially when these others have never had the same success Kobe has had. I dont know, but I dont think someone just becomes the most winningest player of a generation from not understanding how to win.
I agree with alot of what your saying, but whats striking to me is how many similarities I see with how you defend Kobe and I defend Wilt Chamberlain's 1969 Season.

My only question is, what do you think of the Lakers desire to run a Nash-centric offense? Or do you think they hired D'Antoni to find a way to utilize both Nash and Kobe to the highest degree? Because it brings up an interesting point that JVG mentioned on air vs the Knicks. In the big plays down the stretch, Kobe deferred to Nash and let him set the table.

Doesnt that imply that Kobe is conforming to fit Nash's style? I want to say yes but the truth is, this hasn't looked like D'Anoni's offense and it isn't the style Kobe has played over the years either. Its something of a hybrid but what do you hope the offense settles into?
On one hand, Kobe has won at a high level with his style, but Nash has QB'd some of the best offenses we've ever seen over the years. Or are they on the right track trying to find a balance between both?

One thing they have yet to try is rest Kobe and play Nash for a heavy stretch.

Money_23
01-07-2013, 07:21 PM
He has NEVER sacrificed.
That is pro-Kobe propoganda spit by the man himself.

He never sacrificed even in those years.

In the 01-02 playoffs he averaged 22.5 FGA.
In the 08-10 playoffs he averaged 22.5 FGA.

Yes in 00 he averaged only 18 FGA but that was already more then he could handle.
You don't want to give a 50%TS player inefficient offensive player more touches.

then why should Pau get more touches? he currently has 48%TS this season....

Dwight also has a 18% TO with 22% USG
Pau has 13% TO with 19% USG......

those aren't exactly great ratios and they aren't even facilitators.....

Chronz
01-07-2013, 07:23 PM
then why should Pau get more touches? he currently has 48%TS this season....

Dwight also has a 18% TO with 22% USG
Pau has 13% TO with 19% USG......

those aren't exactly great ratios and they aren't even facilitators.....

Good points

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 07:35 PM
those aren't exactly great ratios and they aren't even facilitators.....

Pau is a great facilitator.

cbs9889
01-07-2013, 07:48 PM
if kobe didn't take over about 20 games this season they would have lost by 15+ points. why give the ball up when pau isnt hitting a shot or d12 isnt making FTs. i would rather see nash or kobe shoot. also meeks needs to step up his 3pt shooting and they will play better

Alayla
01-07-2013, 07:53 PM
How much of the Kobe criticism is just people not liking him as a person? I mean he's been the most efficient SG in the NBA, heck he has a top 5 PER. We criticized him in the past because he was inefficient, now we're criticizing him because he's too efficient?

I have no problem with people admitting they don't like him, but the criticism is going overboard some times.

Not once has anybody mentioned how poor the Lakers defense is, or how the Lakers bench is one of the worst in the NBA, or even how Pau is having the worst season of his career.

I think it comes from people Trying to piece together why the Lakers are below 500 with such great talent. This is more or less it
Dwight becuase he is hurt isnt as impactfull or reliabe as Bynum was last year Nash has been hurt and thus couldnt do anything to help therefor was less productive than sessions and gasol has been misused alltough metta on a plus side is in better shape.

b@llhog24
01-07-2013, 08:26 PM
Too bad it's correlated with a below .500 record.

Money_23
01-07-2013, 09:26 PM
Pau is a great facilitator.

he's a good passer, especially for a big. But he's not a facilitator. Not saying that he can't be, but that is not his role.

Jamiecballer
01-07-2013, 09:47 PM
Which if you've listened to Kobe over the years, he makes it abundantly clear that he is all about sacrifices. To his development, his numbers, accolades etc... He wants us to know this, why would he all of sudden prioritize his own play above the teams, when it gos against his entire philosophy?

you lost me right here.

people who spend all their time defending their selflessness are doing it for a reason - because it's obvious to the rest of the world that they are not.

for instance, Tim Duncan never has to convince people he's not selfish because no one would ever accuse him of being so.

petersmagic12
01-07-2013, 10:01 PM
Now I will be the first one to say I am not Kobe fan by any stretch of the imaginiation. I have been the first one to call him a ball hog. I point out the series aganist the suns when they were up 3-1 as soon as kobe stopped passing the ball in that series they started loosing. I think even one game he scored 50 and they lost the game.

However, if you look at the lakers you have to take in alot more factors before you blame Kobe for the Lakers woes this season. One big problem is the Lakers showed their lack of depth when nash went down. When you have chris duhon and rookie trying to play starter minutes and run your offense its not going to go over so well. Also Gasol being injured a good portion of the season hurt them as well because Idk what happened but Antwan Jaminson has not shown me anything this season. So injuries and lack of depth really showed lakers weakness.

Another person you have to blame is D Antoni the Lakers problem is not offense by any stretch. its their defense that struggles and we all know how good D Antoni coaches defense its pretty much nonexistent. He should be also blamed for the offense he tries to run . The lakers are one of the oldest teams in the league they have 2 post players in their starting lineup and D Antoni has them running up and down the court. Gasol has taken almost as much 3pts in 33 games then he has in the past 4 years. Obviously hes not a 3pt shooter and yet Dantoni continues to put him in an offense where he has to take 3pts. He is the completely wrong fit for this team and instead of making changes he continues to try and run the same offense and defense hoping to get different results. Ron Artest is also another victim to Dantonis system. He has shot already attempted 193 threes in the whole 09-10 season he shot 296 and every other season after that has been lower. and he is not exactly a 3pt shooter.

You can blame kobe some games for not facilitaing enough there are games I see dwight with 7 shots and that just cant happen. However The lakers problems are much deeper then Kobes shots per game.

Andrew32
01-07-2013, 10:13 PM
you lost me right here.

people who spend all their time defending their selflessness are doing it for a reason - because it's obvious to the rest of the world that they are not.

for instance, Tim Duncan never has to convince people he's not selfish because no one would ever accuse him of being so.
Haha thank you! :clap:

Kobe saying he has ever been unselfish or has ever sacrificed from a personal standpoint is laughable!
He is always trying to make his legacy look better and grab more credit whenever possible especially for those early Shaq rings.

lakers4sho
01-07-2013, 10:17 PM
you lost me right here.

people who spend all their time defending their selflessness are doing it for a reason - because it's obvious to the rest of the world that they are not.

for instance, Tim Duncan never has to convince people he's not selfish because no one would ever accuse him of being so.

Problem is that people like you (and the fake knicks fan) label it as "selfishness" - hence the inherent negative undertone.

Kobe sees it differently - doing what hes gotta do.

And since hes won 5 championships (and hundreds of millons of dollars to go along) with it, he doesnt feel the need to even listen to what you, even me, have to say.

Hardaway Here
01-07-2013, 10:17 PM
Don't say anything about Kobe's selflessness he won 5 titles by himself so that allows him to do and say whatever he wants

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 10:25 PM
Kobe cares about his numbers waaay too much to be the team's leader. He could learn a thing or two from someone like Derek Rose who finds the accolades and statistics irrelevant and cares about nothing but the team's success and getting championships. Kobe don't care about the Lakers. If he did he would be passing the ball more and letting more people create with the ball. And don't whine to me about his 4 or 5 assists per game, because you can still be a ball hog and easily rack up the assists if you're a star like Kobe and you're constantly getting double teamed. Kobe is the biggest hog in the league, and that doesn't help a team with bad chemistry to begin with.

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 10:27 PM
Don't say anything about Kobe's selflessness he won 5 titles by himself so that allows him to do and say whatever he wants

WHAT!? Are you kidding? Kobe has never in his career won a championship without more stars at his side.

Hardaway Here
01-07-2013, 10:44 PM
WHAT!? Are you kidding? Kobe has never in his career won a championship without more stars at his side.

Thought the sarcasm was obvious

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 10:47 PM
Thought the sarcasm was obvious

My bad.
Sarcasm is hard to detect through the internet.

Jamiecballer
01-07-2013, 11:17 PM
Problem is that people like you (and the fake knicks fan) label it as "selfishness" - hence the inherent negative undertone.

Kobe sees it differently - doing what hes gotta do.

And since hes won 5 championships (and hundreds of millons of dollars to go along) with it, he doesnt feel the need to even listen to what you, even me, have to say.

he does a lot of explaining for a guy with nothing to explain. as i said before, unselfish players don't have to try and convince everyone they are unselfish because people can see it in their actions.

kenzo400
01-07-2013, 11:19 PM
Anybody here consider that maybe not all criticism of Kobe has to do with his personal statistics. Perhaps it's his communication with the team. We all know that he ran Shaq out of town, and now there are reports that he started a fight with Howard. I'm sure they are exaggerated, but realistically they probably did at least have a confrontation. Plus, we all know there was several players in the past that complained about Kobe and his attitude.

amos1er
01-07-2013, 11:22 PM
Great post Chronz. I know all to well about the Kobe hating fan club on here and I never take what they have to say too seriously. Fact is, this roster has too much talent to be performing this badly. The real problem here is Jim Buss and his ego. Jim is very threatened and insecure about the legacy Phil Jackson left behind and the fact that Phil is more responsible for the last five banners hanging in Staples Center than he is. It's very obvious that Jim has a complex concerning his importance in the organization and is constantly trying to overcompensate and in doing so messing things up tremendously. Not hiring Phil Jackson was the biggest mistake of Jim's short lived reign and one that will cost him dearly with the fans. Hiring Phil Jackson was a no-brainer and even Jim couldn't get that right.

jam
01-07-2013, 11:39 PM
Kobe is a damn freak this season. I literally cannot believe he's 34 and playing at this level. Having said that, there's no way he's actually dishing out 5 asts a game. Those are a complete figment of the scorekeepers' imagination.

The lakers' players clearly don't like each other, and Dwight will bolt at season's end.

SirSkyHook
01-07-2013, 11:45 PM
Kobe is a damn freak this season. I literally cannot believe he's 34 and playing at this level. Having said that, there's no way he's actually dishing out 5 asts a game. Those are a complete figment of the scorekeepers' imagination.

The lakers' players clearly don't like each other, and Dwight will bolt at season's end.

Or your not watching the game :D