PDA

View Full Version : David Lee's Flagrant on Blake Griffin



YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 02:03 AM
Anyone else see that horseshit call? What makes it worse is that the ****ing refs went to review it for a few minutes, and they still called it a flagrant. I swear, David Stern is literally trying to get people to stop watching the NBA. This league is turning into a joke more and more everyday. :facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvJabHjsAL4

pupsingh
01-06-2013, 02:05 AM
lol thats barely even a regular foul

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:06 AM
Nah thats a flagrant, if you start letting **** like that fly you will punish the games most exciting athletes.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:06 AM
lol thats barely even a regular foul

According to what rule book?

KniCks4LiFe
01-06-2013, 02:07 AM
Can you find the other one when Ezeli or Landry breaks up the lob and he does a Superman into the floor?

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 02:10 AM
According to what rule book?

According to what rule book is that a flagrant? Lee barely touched him, refs decided to give a flagrant with the way Griffin and his teammates overreacted. I'm sure your ****** announcers played a role in the call, too.

MrfadeawayJB
01-06-2013, 02:10 AM
the commentators didnt even react to it when it happened

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 02:12 AM
the commentators didnt even react to it when it happened

... they decided to when the refs decided to take a look at it.

KniCks4LiFe
01-06-2013, 02:13 AM
LOL I thought it was a foul but look at :19 - :22 Griffin outran Lee's reach, the most Lee is doing is grazing him. I can't even.

There is no way Lee can get full strength on a push there. :laugh2:

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 02:14 AM
im glad it was a flagrant. he made absolutely no play on the ball when blake was in the air. thats dangerous. blake griffin means 100 times more to the league than lee too

Kuya_Clive
01-06-2013, 02:16 AM
That is just pathetic. Lee barely touched him in the slow mo replay. That's a ***** *** call

rocket
01-06-2013, 02:17 AM
He was pushing him while he was in the air which was dangerous, but you saw Lee try to not really push him which makes the call bad.

KniCks4LiFe
01-06-2013, 02:18 AM
this reminds me of the phantom tug from Ezeli that resulted in a jumping 360 spinning heel kick. This reminds me of the phantom push foul from Love on the rebound.

GrandDaddyPurp
01-06-2013, 02:20 AM
It was the right call, Blake could have got hurt being pushed in the air.

KniCks4LiFe
01-06-2013, 02:21 AM
It was the right call, Blake could have got hurt being pushed in the air.

he never pushed him.

MrfadeawayJB
01-06-2013, 02:21 AM
I think it was a foul but not a flagarant

KniCks4LiFe
01-06-2013, 02:23 AM
I think it was a foul but not a flagarant

this

GrandDaddyPurp
01-06-2013, 02:25 AM
he never pushed him.

Yes he did. All it takes is a slight shove while you're in the air. If he didn't get pushed then Blake would have made the lay up.

LakersIn5
01-06-2013, 02:25 AM
im glad it was a flagrant. he made absolutely no play on the ball when blake was in the air. thats dangerous. blake griffin means 100 times more to the league that lee too

this

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 02:30 AM
What the **** does that mean? "blake griffin means 100 times more to the league that lee too" :laugh2:


Yes he did. All it takes is a slight shove while you're in the air. If he didn't get pushed then Blake would have made the lay up.

No, he didn't. Refs are supposed to give flagrant fouls for something malicious, not something that could have happened. Lee barely grazed him, and you know it.

Spurred1
01-06-2013, 02:34 AM
Didn't look like much of anything aside from a regular foul.

KniCks4LiFe
01-06-2013, 02:34 AM
Yes he did. All it takes is a slight shove while you're in the air. If he didn't get pushed then Blake would have made the lay up.

his fingers barely even graze him. Blake Griffin is 200+ lbs, hard to move in the post, he outran the outstretched arms of Lee, even if Lee catches up it's not enough force to shove him off path. Homie put your arms out fully and run into someone see how much they move even on their toes.

Max.This
01-06-2013, 02:44 AM
flop city, what do ppl expect. CP3 did it multiple times in the game against the lakers and he's the team leader.

ThunderousDemon
01-06-2013, 02:46 AM
lol, Clippers have the worst announcers, but I digress, that wasn't a flagrant foul.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 02:46 AM
flop city, what do ppl expect. CP3 did it multiple times in the game against the lakers and he's the team leader.

I found it comical when he tried to flop when Kobe put his hands on him during an inbound play. Kobe looked like he was about to slap him across the head for that.

mjt20mik
01-06-2013, 02:48 AM
lol, Clippers have the worst announcers, but I digress, that wasn't a flagrant foul.

Don't say that, you'll be bashed.

celmxc
01-06-2013, 02:48 AM
it is a foul for sure ... the flagrant part is when lee is pushing blake ... sure it was a weak push but its still a push... and if this was on the road it would not have been a flagrant

ThunderousDemon
01-06-2013, 02:52 AM
Don't say that, you'll be bashed.

It's true though, they're the biggest homers ever.

oak2455
01-06-2013, 02:56 AM
I saw it.... he hit him with the hair on his knuckles .......crazy!!! ;)

Max.This
01-06-2013, 02:59 AM
I found it comical when he tried to flop when Kobe put his hands on him during an inbound play. Kobe looked like he was about to slap him across the head for that.

I'm surprised he hasn't gotten a flopping warning yet. How about when Dwight grazed him walking by, and he flew like he got hit by a freight train... or when Metta ran to the basket on a three ball, and Paul fell forward anticipating Metta would run by him .

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 03:09 AM
What the **** does that mean? "blake griffin means 100 times more to the league that lee too" :laugh2:



do you know what money is? just try to use your head a little

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 03:10 AM
I found it comical when he tried to flop when Kobe put his hands on him during an inbound play. Kobe looked like he was about to slap him across the head for that.

thats kobe's rape look. you are mixed up

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:12 AM
According to what rule book is that a flagrant? Lee barely touched him, refs decided to give a flagrant with the way Griffin and his teammates overreacted. I'm sure your ****** announcers played a role in the call, too.
So let me get this straight, you think the announcers can influence a call made on the court, and your calling them ********? :facepalm:

Read the rule book, this was the very definition of a flagrant. No attempt could be made on the ball

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 03:12 AM
It's true though, they're the biggest homers ever.

ralph is way better than chick ever was, and he's still alive

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:12 AM
Anyone else see that horseshit call? What makes it worse is that the ****ing refs went to review it for a few minutes, and they still called it a flagrant. I swear, David Stern is literally trying to get people to stop watching the NBA. This league is turning into a joke more and more everyday. :facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvJabHjsAL4

1. How is this Stern's fault?
2. That's a flagrant. He made no attempt to try for the ball and his actions were dangerous (pushing/grabbing someone like that while they are jumping is dangerous)

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:14 AM
LOL I thought it was a foul but look at :19 - :22 Griffin outran Lee's reach, the most Lee is doing is grazing him. I can't even.

There is no way Lee can get full strength on a push there. :laugh2:
If he gets full strength its a career ending caliber of a push. When a player is airborne the slightest push is significant, you have to draw the line whenever no attempt can be made on the ball and the player is in midflight.

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 03:14 AM
1. How is this Stern's fault?
2. That's a flagrant. He made no attempt to try for the ball and his actions were dangerous (pushing/grabbing someone like that while they are jumping is dangerous)

facts dont matter, it seems. thats why this thread has just turned into an insults thread.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:19 AM
nvm

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:20 AM
No, he didn't. Refs are supposed to give flagrant fouls for something malicious, not something that could have happened..
Prove thats what the rule book says

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:21 AM
Yes, given that you can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your".

So the point your making is that youd rather be grammatically correct than logically coherent? Congrats :clap:

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:22 AM
Flagrant "1" (FFP1) - unnecessary contact committed by a player against an opponent. The opposing team is awarded two (2) free throws and possession.
Flagrant "2" (FFP2) - unnecessary and excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent. The opposing team is awarded two (2) free throws and possession and the player committing the foul is automatically ejected.

Lee obviously committed F1 by not going for the ball and doing it in an unnecessary manner.

LakersMaster24
01-06-2013, 03:22 AM
If thats a flagrant then Metta's elbow is capital punishment.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:24 AM
Lol, it's very clear some people don't know the rules of the NBA.

A Flagrant foul is not absolutely measured based on severity. It's based on whether or not the contact was unnecessary.

LakersMaster24
01-06-2013, 03:24 AM
It's true though, they're the biggest homers ever.

ralph is way better than chick ever was, and he's still alive

Blasphemous. Get outta here with that bs.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:27 AM
do you know what money is? just try to use your head a little

How is that relevant to anything that happened, though? Stupid understands what stupid says, it seems.


1. How is this Stern's fault?
2. That's a flagrant. He made no attempt to try for the ball and his actions were dangerous (pushing/grabbing someone like that while they are jumping is dangerous)

1. He tells the refs what to call and what not to call. Not far-fetched, I think
2. How was he going to make an attempt for the ball, anyway? He tried to foul Blake when he was on the ground but he was 1 step too behind. Which is why he grazed him a bit mid air.


Prove thats what the rule book says

Prove where in the rule book that says a simple graze warrants a flagrant foul. FFS, they would barely call a foul on that play a couple of years ago, albeit I do think that it was a foul.


So the point your making is that youd rather be grammatically correct than logically coherent? Congrats :clap:

I read your post wrong, I thought you meant that I called you a ******. You should do something about your grammar, anyway, since right about now you're not grammatically correct nor logically coherent.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:29 AM
Lol, it's very clear some people don't know the rules of the NBA.

A Flagrant foul is not absolutely measured based on severity. It's based on whether or not the contact was unnecessary.

How about you go stalk other people's facebook groups instead of trying to explain the rules of the NBA, something which you evidently lack knowledge in? Thanks.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:30 AM
How about you go stalk other people's facebook groups instead of trying to explain the rules of the NBA, something which you evidently lack knowledge in? Thanks.

Lololololololol. I wasn't stalking. I was accepted into the group.

Trollollollolloll.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:31 AM
Lololololololol. I wasn't stalking. I was accepted into the group.

Trollollollolloll.

Yeah, with us thinking you were completely someone else. Find a hobby.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:32 AM
Yeah, with us thinking you were completely someone else. Find a hobby.

:laugh2: This actually made me laugh.

You're spending Saturday night blatantly trolling the NBA forum and I need to find a hobby?

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:33 AM
:laugh2: This actually made me laugh.

You're spending Saturday night blatantly trolling the NBA forum and I need to find a hobby?

You literally just posted "trollololool" 2-3 posts above mine, and I'm the one that's trolling? Seriously, how dense could you be?

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:34 AM
You literally just posted "trollololool" 2-3 posts above mine, and I'm the one that's trolling? Seriously, how dense could you be?

I was saying that relative to your post. I found your trolling funny.

Not sure why you're so mad...

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:35 AM
I was saying that relative to your post. I found your trolling funny.

Not sure why you're so mad...

Not trolling when it's true. Like I said, find a hobby.

Sactown
01-06-2013, 03:36 AM
If that's a f1, then a lot of pushing on the block must be f1's since they have nothing to do with the ball

grandsalami
01-06-2013, 03:40 AM
If that's a f1, then a lot of pushing on the block must be f1's since they have nothing to do with the ball

im guessing its a F1 because Griffin was in the air, compared to having both feet on the ground.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-06-2013, 03:40 AM
Not trolling when it's true. Like I said, find a hobby.

:laugh2:

You're funny, I'll give you that. Not sure if you're funnier than me but nice job.

I will find a new hobby though, thanks.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 03:41 AM
im guessing its a F1 because Griffin was in the air, compared to having both feet on the ground.

Huh? He was airborne... HUGE difference. If he was on the ground and merely got pushed in the post refs wouldn't call a foul at all because they never do for Griffin in those situations.

Sactown
01-06-2013, 03:41 AM
im guessing its a F1 because Griffin was in the air, compared to having both feet on the ground.

Lol because Blake was "in danger" during that play lol. For all we know he was going to go for the rap around and save lol

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:44 AM
Prove where in the rule book that says a simple graze warrants a flagrant foul. FFS, they would barely call a foul on that play a couple of years ago, albeit I do think that it was a foul.
I dont have to prove that because I never said it was a simple graze, I said it was the definition of a flagrant. Which if you know the rule book, it simply states unnecessary contact. Both I and the refs agreed that, considering the fact that Blake was already in mid air, any sort of push is unnecessary. Thats something the NBA has been trying to clean up for a very long time now.




I read your post wrong, I thought you meant that I called you a ******. You should do something about your grammar, anyway, since right about now you're not grammatically correct nor logically coherent.
If you cant deduce the proper grammatical term (you're from your) in the context of that post, then you have no authority on anyone logical coherency.

Lets break down what you just said;
I thought you meant that I called you a ******.

Now lets look at what I actually said:

So let me get this straight, you think the announcers can influence a call made on the court, and your calling them ********?


So somewhere in that post you deduced that I thought you were calling me a ******? Even though I clearly refer to them as "THEM"?

In what context can THEY/THEM mean an individual?

Not to mention your post clearly refers to the broadcasters as ********. I mean how the **** did you arrive to you thinking I was the one being called ********?

grandsalami
01-06-2013, 03:45 AM
Huh? He was airborne... HUGE difference. If he was on the ground and merely got pushed in the post refs wouldn't call a foul at all because they never do for Griffin in those situations.

thats what Im saying/my point.....

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 03:45 AM
This is one of those threads I wish I didn't open.

Chronz will defend it, and he's right on NBA stuff 96% of the time, but he gets blinded by homerism here as of late.

Griffin has been getting underserved superstar calls since he's been in the league. Not saying he's not a baller, just saying the NBA(Stern) is trying to hand him the league. One post here that really made my point was where a poster said, "Griffin is worth much more to the league than Lee is". That's a big problem with the NBA. The INTEGRITY game SHOULD be more important than the name on the jersey(front or back) or the sponsorships involved...

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:47 AM
If thats a flagrant then Metta's elbow is capital punishment.

No ****, thats why he got suspended

People think flagrants have to be these insanely brutal hits but those are for the worst of fouls, then there are flagrant 2's then are these run of the mill flagrants.

LakersMaster24
01-06-2013, 03:48 AM
I guess the next time someone touches the body of a shooter in mid air he should be called for a flagrant. Mid-air & no play for ball.

tripleplay2007
01-06-2013, 03:49 AM
That was a smart foul! I don't see how this is flagrant, all the league wants is money for dunks. That's why they changed the league with the "Shaq rules"... They want the athletic high flyers to make awesome dunks and make money. This isn't basketball, this is just a free throw shooting and dunk contest. I'm really getting more and more turned of by the NBA's officials.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:50 AM
This is one of those threads I wish I didn't open.

Chronz will defend it, and he's right on NBA stuff 96% of the time, but he gets blinded by homerism here as of late.

Griffin has been getting underserved superstar calls since he's been in the league. Not saying he's not a baller, just saying the NBA(Stern) is trying to hand him the league. One post here that really made my point was where a poster said, "Griffin is worth much more to the league than Lee is". That's a big problem with the NBA. The INTEGRITY game SHOULD be more important than the name on the jersey(front or back) or the sponsorships involved...
Tell me, what you would think of someone who dismisses your opinion on Yao's treatment from the refs because of the fact that your a ROX fan?

blahblahyoutoo
01-06-2013, 03:52 AM
If thats a flagrant then Metta's elbow is capital punishment.

I agree that's a flagrant due to the way the rules have it stated.
But I also agree that in comparison, artests elbow would be a flagrant 5.

Stuckey#3
01-06-2013, 03:53 AM
Does David Stern drive a Kia by chance?

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:53 AM
I dont have to prove that because I never said it was a simple graze, I said it was the definition of a flagrant. Which if you know the rule book, it simply states unnecessary contact. Both I and the refs agreed that, considering the fact that Blake was already in mid air, any sort of push is unnecessary. Thats something the NBA has been trying to clean up for a very long time now.

It was a graze, whether you said it or not. If you think that's a push, then you need thicker glasses.



If you cant deduce the proper grammatical term (you're from your) in the context of that post, then you have no authority on anyone logical coherency.

Lets break down what you just said;
I thought you meant that I called you a ******.

Now lets look at what I actually said:

So let me get this straight, you think the announcers can influence a call made on the court, and your calling them ********?


So somewhere in that post you deduced that I thought you were calling me a ******? Even though I clearly refer to them as "THEY"?

In what context can THEY mean an individual?

Not to mention your post clearly refers to the broadcasters as ********. I mean how the **** did you arrive to you thinking I was the one being called ********?

Just to clear things up:

Your - denotes possession.
You're - you are.

Way to turn this grammar talk to me, by the way. Comical. You know what the difference between me and you is? I actually admitted to my mistake, but it still doesn't change the fact that you quite evidently don't know the difference between "your" and "you're". You're so dense, it's not even funny.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:54 AM
I guess the next time someone touches the body of a shooter in mid air he should be called for a flagrant. Mid-air & no play for ball.
So when people contest jumpers they arent making plays on the ball? Regardless, touching is far different from pushing someone with forward momentum already. Ever heard of this thing called physics?

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:55 AM
It was a graze, whether you said it or not. If you think that's a push, then you need thicker glasses.
Sorry but I only deal with facts.



Way to turn this grammar talk to me. Comical. You know what the difference between me and you is? I actually admitted to my mistake, but it still doesn't change the fact that you quite evidently don't know the difference between "your" and "you're". You're so dense, it's not even funny.
Wait:

Didnt you respond to my post with:

Yes, given that you can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your".

And Im the one who STARTED this? LMFAO

Stuckey#3
01-06-2013, 03:56 AM
Stern: "0h no! a less marketable player is outplaying my #1 pick one dimensional golden boy... I better do something about it."

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:57 AM
Just to clear things up:

Your - denotes possession.
You're - you are.

Way to turn this grammar talk to me, by the way. Comical. You know what the difference between me and you is? I actually admitted to my mistake, but it still doesn't change the fact that you quite evidently don't know the difference between "your" and "you're". You're so dense, it's not even funny.
Re-read that post, what makes you think I dont know the difference?

Stuckey#3
01-06-2013, 03:59 AM
CP3= beast. Blake Griffin= B!tch.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 03:59 AM
Sorry but I only deal with facts.


Wait:

Didnt you respond to my post with:

Yes, given that you can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your".

And Im the one who STARTED this? LMFAO

What's that? You're trying to call me a ******? Of course you started it, you fool.


So let me get this straight, you think the announcers can influence a call made on the court, and your calling them ********?

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:01 AM
What's that? You're trying to call me a ******? Of course you started it, you fool.
LMFAO you said I was the one who TURNED INTO A GRAMMATICAL POST. When in reality it was you.

I do not deny I responded to your inept post, I deny your accusation that I made this about grammar. LMFAO dear god man, plz try to follow your own conversation, particularly when you're the one making the claims Im refuting.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 04:02 AM
Re-read that post, what makes you think I dont know the difference?

If you knew the difference, you wouldn't have made that mistake. Seriously, what's so hard about adding an "e" to that "your"?

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 04:04 AM
LMFAO you said I was the one who TURNED INTO A GRAMMATICAL POST. When in reality it was you.

I do not deny I responded to your inept post, I deny your accusation that I made this about grammar. LMFAO dear god man, plz try to follow your own conversation, particularly when your the one making the claims Im refuting.

I never said that. I said you were trying to turn the tables on the grammar talk, even though it's you that doesn't understand the basic concepts.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:06 AM
If you knew the difference, you wouldn't have made that mistake. Seriously, what's so hard about adding an "e" to that "your"?
Whats so hard about adding the ' to the e?

Seriously they are called typos for a reason.

Let me know when you want to continue the discussion about what the rule book says.

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 04:09 AM
Tell me, what you would think of someone who dismisses your opinion on Yao's treatment from the refs because of the fact that your a ROX fan?

I fail to see your point. Yao was straight abused by refs.

YouCan'tBeatLA
01-06-2013, 04:09 AM
Whats so hard about adding the ' to the e?

Seriously they are called typos for a reason, notice how you pointed it out and I corrected it in the following post. Yet your still talking about it and ignoring the topic at hand entirely.

Let me know when you want to continue the discussion about what the rule book says.

You tell me, see you don't do either. If it was indeed a typo, you would have forgotten only the "e". LOL, I'm done with you.

I already said what needs to be said. It was a graze, not a push; therefore, it's not an unnecessary contact.


You think this because you lack common sense, this is about you telling me what logical. Notice how you cling to grammar when Im dealing with the meaning of those words. Whether I use your or you're is of no importance to the idea of my post. You choose to ignore those ideas because you have nothing else to refute aside from the grammatical correctness of it.

I definitely know what you meant, goon. Doesn't change the fact that the word was out of context. FFS, it's 1st grade grammar.

el hidalgo
01-06-2013, 04:09 AM
is it any coincidence that this player happens to play in the same city as kobe? dont think so. stern will do anything he can to keep kobe from winning i guess

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:09 AM
I never said that. I said you were trying to turn the tables on the grammar talk, even though it's you that doesn't understand the basic concepts.

You think this because you lack common sense, this is about you telling me what logical. Notice how you cling to grammar when Im dealing with the meaning of those words. Whether I use your or you're is of no importance to the idea of my post. You choose to ignore those ideas because you have nothing else to refute aside from the grammatical correctness of it.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:11 AM
I fail to see your point. Yao was straight abused by refs.

Thats my point. Now imagine if someone told you that you were just being a homer? Would that make what you see any less true?

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:13 AM
You tell me, see you don't do either. If it was indeed a typo, you would have forgotten only the "e". LOL, I'm done with you.

I already said what needs to be said. It was a graze, not a push; therefore, it's not an unnecessary contact.

Im sorry but I dont abide to what you define as a typo. I will make many of them, it doesn't mean I dont know the difference, it means Im not making a professional article and do not care to use every single punctuation. They are trivial elements in this forum, Im here to debate ideas, not grammar. But here we are.

envymamba24
01-06-2013, 04:13 AM
this league sucks.

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 04:21 AM
this league sucks.

this

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 04:23 AM
Thats my point. Now imagine if someone told you that you were just being a homer? Would that make what you see any less true?

The league has sold out. It happened after Yao. If Yao played today he'd throw up 28/15.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 04:32 AM
I fail to see your point. Yao was straight abused by refs.

So is Blake. Did you know Blake averages FIVE fu**ing free throw attempts a game? So much for NBA's Golden Child who is pampered and gets all the calls right? This is despite being one of the most physical players in the NBA and the most reckless player going to the paint often getting chopped down by 2-3 players.

It's ridiculous how Blake has to literally get mauled to get a call. Did you watch the Lakers game how Dwight kept clearing Blake out with elbow swings and shoves and got literally zero calls from it? Or how Blake went hard to the rim a few times in the same game and got smashed in the face and again got nothing?

Bottom line is you're wrong in every regard here. Wrong on how Griffin gets reffed and wrong on what constitutes a flagrant foul. Shoving a players body who is airborne for a dunk with ZERO play on the ball is an automatic flagrant 1 and always has been. There is no argument here, just a bunch of Griffin haters coming out again.

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 04:37 AM
Was it called a F1 or F2? I honestly forgot after all the petty grammar arguments going on.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 04:40 AM
Flagrant 1... which is a common call nowadays. It just means unnecessary or excessive contact with no play on the ball which this was. People just want to dispute it because it's Blake. This should be a non issue/non story quite frankly but PLEASE do not say refs love Griffin. Griffin actually has a terrible relationship with refs which is why in his career he's top 5 in techs every year and his free throw attempts have plummeted every year. I mean 5 a game is pretty pathetic for a player that gets hacked at as much as him when guys like Dwight average 10+ a game every year.

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 04:50 AM
I know what it means.
Maybe refs are tired of a 6'10" 260 pound beast making them look like fools for calling his flops for a year?

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 04:51 AM
Flagrant 1... which is a common call nowadays. It just means unnecessary or excessive contact with no play on the ball which this was. People just want to dispute it because it's Blake. This should be a non issue/non story quite frankly but PLEASE do not say refs love Griffin. Griffin actually has a terrible relationship with refs which is why in his career he's top 5 in techs every year and his free throw attempts have plummeted every year. I mean 5 a game is pretty pathetic for a player that gets hacked at as much as him when guys like Dwight average 10+ a game every year.

Bad point there, teams foul Dwight on purpose.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 04:57 AM
Bad point there, teams foul Dwight on purpose.

You don't think they try the Hack a Shaq on Griffin too? Besides... that's mainly being exploited this year yet there is no change in FT attempts from this year and the previous few years for Dwight really. It's pretty much an average of 10 per game over the last 5 years, even when teams weren't purposely hacking. Bottom line is some players like Dwight are reffed very biased and Griffin isn't one of those players, despite what people say.

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 05:02 AM
is it any coincidence that this player happens to play in the same city as kobe? dont think so. stern will do anything he can to keep kobe from winning i guess

kobe keeps himself from winning. hes lucky he had shaq and a prime gasol

sep11ie
01-06-2013, 05:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0L2BISX-pM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev1M1AYQR3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSlszw4WEgk

JLynn943
01-06-2013, 05:48 AM
It's a weak flagrant even if it does fit the definition. Calls like the compromise the integrity of the game. There routinely are far more dangerous non-flagrant fouls involving a play on the ball on dunk/lay-up attempts.

Victimize
01-06-2013, 05:48 AM
I cant stand Blake Griffin. All he does is flop. He knows he is going to get the call too and Mr. Hypocrite Stern will do nothing about it.

LakersMaster24
01-06-2013, 05:51 AM
is it any coincidence that this player happens to play in the same city as kobe? dont think so. stern will do anything he can to keep kobe from winning i guess

kobe keeps himself from winning. hes lucky he had shaq and a prime gasol

Yet Shaq and Pau are not lucky to have Kobe?

LAcowBOMBER
01-06-2013, 05:56 AM
Can you call flagrants for intent? Serious question because that wasn't even a foul otherwise let alone a flagrant

stawka
01-06-2013, 09:43 AM
There is minimal contact, but the fact that you can **** a players ankle or knee by pushing him in mid-air, is enough reason for a flagrant to be warranted

Kashmir13579
01-06-2013, 10:42 AM
David Lee didn't follow through with the push.

BKLYNpigeon
01-06-2013, 11:00 AM
Blake Griffin is a great talent but one of the softest players in the league.

These Superstars always get the BS calls.

heyman321
01-06-2013, 11:18 AM
Blake Griffin was pushed by Blake Griffin

Corey
01-06-2013, 11:25 AM
Barely even a foul. No chance it's a flagrant.

JasonJohnHorn
01-06-2013, 11:26 AM
it techincally IS a flagarant foul. When you commit a foul, you are supposed to be going to the ball. Lee committed a foul there, but was clearly NOT making a play for the ball. Also Griffin was in mid air when Lee made the contact, and fouled him by pushing on his lower body (although it was a very light push). If you let guys push on a guys lower body while they are mid-air, then there is huge room for serious injury when they land. you CANNOT do that. Good call, even though it was a light foul, it still was not a play for the ball and such fouls leave room for potential injury and must be called as flagarant.

xnick5757
01-06-2013, 11:32 AM
remember when a foul was really a foul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X7r6vXeOfyQ#t=69s

^
imagine if something like that happened in today's NBA - suspension for the rest of the season?

heyman321
01-06-2013, 11:34 AM
it techincally IS a flagarant foul. When you commit a foul, you are supposed to be going to the ball. Lee committed a foul there, but was clearly NOT making a play for the ball. Also Griffin was in mid air when Lee made the contact, and fouled him by pushing on his lower body (although it was a very light push). If you let guys push on a guys lower body while they are mid-air, then there is huge room for serious injury when they land. you CANNOT do that. Good call, even though it was a light foul, it still was not a play for the ball and such fouls leave room for potential injury and must be called as flagarant.

Kurt Rambis turned out fine. Also so bearhugs be considered flagrants then by your definition? They are not plays on the ball.

Corey
01-06-2013, 11:36 AM
Kurt Rambis turned out fine. Also so bearhugs be considered flagrants then by your definition? They are not plays on the ball.

Every foul in the back at the end of a close game is a flagrant then, aye? Lol.

69centers
01-06-2013, 12:07 PM
That was not a flagrant. Heck, this play where Bogans completely did not go for ball and just grabbed Barbosa by the neck was reviewed and downgraded to just a foul.

Bogans foul on Barbosa, reviewed and found NOT to be a flagrant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39PF5Ek_Sqk)

Sly Guy
01-06-2013, 12:16 PM
no play at the ball, and it's a very dangerous play. Just cuz he didn't fall doesn't mean there couldn't have been serious injury. When you're in the air like that you're extremely vulnerable, it's like undercutting someone or taking their legs out from underneath them. It's a flagrant.

Cromedome
01-06-2013, 12:29 PM
He didn't make a play for the ball so this is the right call.

Hustla23
01-06-2013, 01:00 PM
I can definitely see how that could be a flagrant. Lee had his hands on Griffin while he was in mid-air. There's no reason for that and could have possibly resulted in a bad injury.

kdspurman
01-06-2013, 01:01 PM
I don't think he pushed him hard enough for it to be a flagrant. Hardly pushed him from what I saw in the replay. It could've been Blake just ran too fast for his own good.

At the end of the day, the league has to protect it's stars, and I think that's what was going on here imo.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 01:20 PM
Thats my point. Now imagine if someone told you that you were just being a homer? Would that make what you see any less true?

The league has sold out. It happened after Yao. If Yao played today he'd throw up 28/15.
So says the homer, amirite rocket fan?

Chronz
01-06-2013, 01:22 PM
David Lee didn't follow through with the push.
Thus he was not suspended and merely fined for a push on a mid flight player.

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that also a clear path foul on top of the flagrant

Chronz
01-06-2013, 01:25 PM
I don't think he pushed him hard enough for it to be a flagrant. Hardly pushed him from what I saw in the replay. It could've been Blake just ran too fast for his own good.

At the end of the day, the league has to protect it's stars, and I think that's what was going on here imo. lmfao
Too fast for his own good? not fast enough apparently.

Blake GAINED forward momentum while midflight, lol, that has nothing to with running

kenzo400
01-06-2013, 01:54 PM
im glad it was a flagrant. he made absolutely no play on the ball when blake was in the air. thats dangerous. blake griffin means 100 times more to the league than lee too

Then perhaps someone should tell Griffin to stop jumping in the air like a maniac. If anyone touches that guy in the air, he falls on his back because he doesn't know how to control his body. Also, not every foul "not on ball" would be a flagrant. (ex: fouling Dwight on purpose when he doesn't have the ball)

kdspurman
01-06-2013, 01:55 PM
lmfao
Too fast for his own good? not fast enough apparently.

Blake GAINED forward momentum while midflight, lol, that has nothing to with running

He gained momentum while mid-flight? You really think Lee's hands on him had that much of an impact?

I think that how quick someone runs has an effect on them when they jump in the air. He probably jumped a little too late too. He didn't jump and all of sudden Lee gave him this big push to make him go forward as much as he did. Griffin is the kind of dude that will complain right away even with the softest fouls. This time at least from here there was more reaction from the crowd and the bench than from him.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

kenzo400
01-06-2013, 02:10 PM
I do have to say that according to new NBA rules, it becomes impossible to foul someone on purpose, especially in transition. Even the foul on Barbosa was not really a flagrant. He just wanted to stop the guy from getting to the basket and was obviously trying to catch his upper body (not neck) But when they are both running, it's a little difficult to do that and his hands slipped towards his neck.

With Griffin, I think an equal amount of flop warnings to flagrant fouls should be given to him. As to the Clippers fan, the reason he gets 5 free throws a game is because he rarely gets fouled in the air anymore for two main reason (1- he often finishes with an and 1 and 2) Because it is far too risky trying to grab him in the air. Odds are that you would get a flagrant foul call when he falls back like a moron on the ground.

ThaDubs
01-06-2013, 02:12 PM
The league is just trying to preserve it's stars.
It probably wouldn't have been called if Blake committed the foul on David Lee.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:17 PM
That was not a flagrant. Heck, this play where Bogans completely did not go for ball and just grabbed Barbosa by the neck was reviewed and downgraded to just a foul.

Bogans foul on Barbosa, reviewed and found NOT to be a flagrant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39PF5Ek_Sqk)

Is that suppose to be a similar example? NBA takes mid-air shoves/undercutting more seriously because of the risk involved. That play was definitely borderline but not in the same class of risk/foul imo

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:21 PM
I do have to say that according to new NBA rules, it becomes impossible to foul someone on purpose, especially in transition. Even the foul on Barbosa was not really a flagrant. He just wanted to stop the guy from getting to the basket and was obviously trying to catch his upper body (not neck) But when they are both running, it's a little difficult to do that and his hands slipped towards his neck.
I think the Refs agreed with your take, upon viewing the replay from Bogans perspective, its clear he has a firm grip on his chest and he was making a play on the ball handler. Lee on the other hand was shoving a mid-flight player who was without the ball.



With Griffin, I think an equal amount of flop warnings to flagrant fouls should be given to him. As to the Clippers fan, the reason he gets 5 free throws a game is because he rarely gets fouled in the air anymore for two main reason (1- he often finishes with an and 1 and 2) Because it is far too risky trying to grab him in the air. Odds are that you would get a flagrant foul call when he falls back like a moron on the ground.

But then that would imply that hes finishing plays at a higher rate and from what Ive seen, I dont think anyone is scared of hacking Blake.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 02:24 PM
I do have to say that according to new NBA rules, it becomes impossible to foul someone on purpose, especially in transition. Even the foul on Barbosa was not really a flagrant. He just wanted to stop the guy from getting to the basket and was obviously trying to catch his upper body (not neck) But when they are both running, it's a little difficult to do that and his hands slipped towards his neck.

With Griffin, I think an equal amount of flop warnings to flagrant fouls should be given to him. As to the Clippers fan, the reason he gets 5 free throws a game is because he rarely gets fouled in the air anymore for two main reason (1- he often finishes with an and 1 and 2) Because it is far too risky trying to grab him in the air. Odds are that you would get a flagrant foul call when he falls back like a moron on the ground.

Wrong. Blake Griffin leads the NBA in flagrant fouls received every year. Teams are still flagrantly fouling him regularly. This year specifically it's down more because he's playing the midrange game more. He still deserves a good 8 a game at least though based on how much teams hack him. Dude has scarred up arms, neck and face in 2.5 years in the NBA due to the hacking, like nasty scratch scars too.

It's a double standard where he's so big and strong that refs who already dislike him for whining let teams manhandle him. Ironically that doesn't apply to Dwight Howard though who simply has to scream "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYE!" to get free throws and regularly shoots 20 free throws.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 02:26 PM
BTW David Lee flat out admitted just 3 days ago in an interview that teams would MUCH rather flagrantly foul Griffin than get dunked on and was emphatic about it too. His exact wording when asked which is preferred he said "No question!" a flagrant foul. He also said the reason it's either a flagrant or dunk and no in between is because Blake is so incredibly powerful and explosive. He didn't say anything about Blake getting preferential treatment.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:31 PM
He gained momentum while mid-flight? You really think Lee's hands on him had that much of an impact?
In mid-flight ANY sort of push will have a profound effect on your forward momentum. Particularly when they are already leaping forward


I think that how quick someone runs has an effect on them when they jump in the air. He probably jumped a little too late too. He didn't jump and all of sudden Lee gave him this big push to make him go forward as much as he did. Griffin is the kind of dude that will complain right away even with the softest fouls. This time at least from here there was more reaction from the crowd and the bench than from him.
I get the sense that you dont watch Blake very often but hes pretty good at timing for lobs and this CP3 guy is pretty good at throwing them, especially easy ones like this. Blake was CLEARLY pushed ahead of where he intended to be by the time he caught the ball. CP3 doesn't mistime these gimmes.


I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Definitely, been watching too many CP3+Blake games to think it was simply a misfire, particularly when the refs agreed it was unnecessary contact, that Lee put his arms up implies a recognition of the presence of a FOUL, that Blake was visibly ticked off made it seem personal, he may get mad but I dont see him take fouls too personally, last night even the announcers mentioned it.

You want me to ignore all of these FACTS, and simply think Blake and CP3 miss timed a play they have a very high rate of completion on? LMFAO pass on that ****

Kashmir13579
01-06-2013, 02:35 PM
Thus he was not suspended and merely fined for a push on a mid flight player.

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that also a clear path foul on top of the flagrant

Is it a push if no follow through?

It was only an "easy basket" because its Blake. So definitely not a clear path. If thats a clear path where does it stop? If Blake was a mere human, there were a couple blue jerseys in position to make a defensive play.

A circumstantial "easy basket" isn't imho an "easy basket"

JLynn943
01-06-2013, 02:40 PM
In mid-flight ANY sort of push will have a profound effect on your forward momentum. Particularly when they are already leaping forward


lol. Apparently you've never taken a physics class? Momentum is conserved. Whatever momentum is applied is the amount of momentum gained. There is no magical law of physics where some slight amount of momentum applied equates to a "profound" increase in momentum.

ThunderousDemon
01-06-2013, 02:40 PM
ralph is way better than chick ever was, and he's still alive

:facepalm:

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:42 PM
Is it a push if no follow through?
Thats my point, if he follows through the end result is likely to be far more catastrophic, thats why he wasn't suspended. Because his actions only warranted a simple flagrant 1 (not even a 2), these are flagrants he has admitted to be willing to commit rather than give up an easy bucket to Blake.


It was only an "easy basket" because its Blake. So definitely not a clear path. If thats a clear path where does it stop? If Blake was a mere human, there were a couple blue jerseys in position to make a defensive play.

A circumstantial "easy basket" isn't imho an "easy basket"

I dont think you understand the rule book, by definition, a clear path foul doesnt state anything about a particular player being unable to benefit from the rule, it only states that ANY PLAYER merely needs to be fouled without a single opposition between he and the basket. And IIRC, Lee was BEHIND BLAKE when he pushed him and I dont recall there being any Warrior ahead of him. That meets all the criteria there is, it has nothing to do with subjective definitions of "Easy baskets"

ThunderousDemon
01-06-2013, 02:43 PM
is it any coincidence that this player happens to play in the same city as kobe? dont think so. stern will do anything he can to keep kobe from winning i guess

KobeObsessiveDisorder^^^^

ohreally
01-06-2013, 02:44 PM
Flagrant??? Anyone calling that a flagrant is really looking to make this a worthless game. No one was getting hurt on tha play. He barely touched Blake after h was in th air, tried not to touch him at all, and Lee was running forward as well. Foul? Yeah, though there are worse fouls committed that aren't called at all.

Unncessary contact is basically any foul. And it's not clear that Lee made no attempt for the ball. The ball wasn't here yet but it seemed to me he was hoping to prevent th ball from getting to Blake in the first place.

Worst call of a flagrant I have ever seen. Really sad that anyone would defend that as being flagrant. Unbelievable, really.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:45 PM
lol. Apparently you've never taken a physics class? Momentum is conserved. Whatever momentum is applied is the amount of momentum gained. There is no magical law of physics where some slight amount of momentum applied equates to a "profound" increase in momentum.
Magical? Its called resistance, while in the air you have no resistance to ANY push. Comparing a push mid-air to one while anchored to the ground is foolish. Thats the point Im making, thats why as soft as a push as it may seem, to someone whos in midflight its going to change his flight path.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:50 PM
Flagrant??? Anyone calling that a flagrant is really looking to make this a worthless game. No one was getting hurt on tha play. He barely touched Blake after h was in th air, tried not to touch him at all, and Lee was running forward as well. Foul? Yeah, though there are worse fouls committed that aren't called at all.
While in mid-air about to catch a lob? I dont think I see many of those but Im open to being wrong.



Unncessary contact is basically any foul.
True but there is a special awareness for fouls committed while players are vulnerable in the air. Like it or not, this is something the NBA has been cleaning up for awhile.


And it's not clear that Lee made no attempt for the ball. The ball wasn't here yet but it seemed to me he was hoping to prevent th ball from getting to Blake in the first place.
Im pretty sure, in the NBA, if a player doesn't have the ball, you arent making an attempt ON THE BALL.


Worst call of a flagrant I have ever seen. Really sad that anyone would defend that as being flagrant. Unbelievable, really.
I disagree, seems fairly obvious it should have been a clear path foul on top of a flagrant, tho Im not sure if that even exists.

Kashmir13579
01-06-2013, 02:50 PM
Thats my point, if he follows through the end result is likely to be far more catastrophic, thats why he wasn't suspended. Because his actions only warranted a simple flagrant 1 (not even a 2), these are flagrants he has admitted to be willing to commit rather than give up an easy bucket to Blake.


I dont think you understand the rule book, by definition, a clear path foul doesnt state anything about a particular player being unable to benefit from the rule, it only states that ANY PLAYER merely needs to be fouled without a single opposition between he and the basket. And IIRC, Lee was BEHIND BLAKE when he pushed him and I dont recall there being any Warrior ahead of him. That meets all the criteria there is, it has nothing to do with subjective definitions of "Easy baskets"
The actual rule is incredibly vague and left to the refs discretion. It revolves around "easy baskets". Just because there isn't technically a blue shirt ahead of the player, doesn't mean its an easy basket. The stipulation is that the foul cannot be if there is a defensive player ahead of the offensive player.

Even if you think thats a clear path foul, do you really want to watch an NBA where that gets called? Can you say slippery slope?

Kashmir13579
01-06-2013, 02:52 PM
Damn Chronz why are you so adamant about this? You insist its a flagrant and on top of it you say clear path? sheeeeeeeeeet

You must be bored on this sunday.

kdspurman
01-06-2013, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Chronz
In mid-flight ANY sort of push will have a profound effect on your forward momentum. Particularly when they are already leaping forward

I'm aware of that, but I don't think it was strong enough to cause that.. Hell if that was Shaq who went up like that, and Lee did the same thing I don't think it would've caused him to shift as much as Blake did here, or anyone else who isn't as fast as Blake. Its like if a guard is running top speed to the basket and someone touches them on their back and it causes them to go flying. Speed/height has an impact on this sort of thing.


I get the sense that you dont watch Blake very often but hes pretty good at timing for lobs and this CP3 guy is pretty good at throwing them, especially easy ones like this. Blake was CLEARLY pushed ahead of where he intended to be by the time he caught the ball. CP3 doesn't mistime these gimmes.

I get that except..... Paul isn't the one who passed it here....... And I've watched them plenty last year and this year actually btw.



Definitely, been watching too many CP3+Blake games to think it was simply a misfire, particularly when the refs agreed it was unnecessary contact, that Lee put his arms up implies a recognition of the presence of a FOUL, that Blake was visibly ticked off made it seem personal, he may get mad but I dont see him take fouls too personally, last night even the announcers mentioned it.

Unless he's changed a ton, he always got upset with hard fouls, or fouls he thought was hard.


You want me to ignore all of these FACTS, and simply think Blake and CP3 miss timed a play they have a very high rate of completion on? LMFAO pass on that ****

Pass on the fact that you have your FACTS wrong on this play sir. Since your biggest thing is how accurate the timing is between Paul/Griffin.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 02:59 PM
The actual rule is incredibly vague and left to the refs discretion. It revolves around "easy baskets". Just because there isn't technically a blue shirt ahead of the player, doesn't mean its an easy basket. The stipulation is that the foul cannot be if there is a defensive player ahead of the offensive player.

Even if you think thats a clear path foul, do you really want to watch an NBA where that gets called? Can you say slippery slope?
Your right it does say easy baskets, kind of put me in my place there but every foul where the opponent has to intentionally foul to prevent a fast break implies an easy basket. The only question is whether they were behind the ball or not. I mistakenly assumed it had to do with the players positioning but the ball could have been behind both Blake and Lee.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 03:02 PM
I get that except..... Paul isn't the one who passed it here....... And I've watched them plenty last year and this year actually btw.

.................


Unless he's changed a ton, he always got upset with hard fouls, or fouls he thought was hard.
Yes that has always been the case, key word being HARD FOULS. Blake has taken hits before without even flinching, but he took it personal because he was in the air.



Pass on the fact that you have your FACTS wrong on this play sir. Since your biggest thing is how accurate the timing is between Paul/Griffin.
You got me, I got 1 fact wrong. Bledsoe and Blake never hook up for lobs :rolleyes:

Jista
01-06-2013, 03:14 PM
David Lee may not have connected on the push, foul but if he had he could have caused a serious injury so he should have been ejected and suspeneded imho. It actually reminds me of the time Trevor Ariza took a swing at Derozen a few years ago, he missed but he still got ejected and was suspended a few games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrgd5v184Xs

FlashMacker
01-06-2013, 03:28 PM
That's not a flagrant at all

JLynn943
01-06-2013, 03:42 PM
Magical? Its called resistance, while in the air you have no resistance to ANY push. Comparing a push mid-air to one while anchored to the ground is foolish. Thats the point Im making, thats why as soft as a push as it may seem, to someone whos in midflight its going to change his flight path.

You said that any push would have a profound effect. That is a lie. The momentum change in the person in the air is directly the momentum applied to him. A small push will have a small effect - hence why in this case there was very little altering of Griffin's trajectory.

gaughan333
01-06-2013, 03:57 PM
David Lee may not have connected on the push, foul but if he had he could have caused a serious injury so he should have been ejected and suspeneded imho. It actually reminds me of the time Trevor Ariza took a swing at Derozen a few years ago, he missed but he still got ejected and was suspended a few games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrgd5v184Xs

I don't think that is the same thing as throwing a punch...

Jista
01-06-2013, 04:03 PM
I don't think that is the same thing as throwing a punch...

Doesn't matter, the action could still have lead to a serious injury and that is something the NBA wants to avoid. Besides even though David Lee missed the push, his intent was still to attack the player not make a clear play for the ball.

Kashmir13579
01-06-2013, 04:09 PM
David Lee doesn't strike me as a dirty player. I remember him well from his Knicks days. The exact type of player i enjoy rooting for. He goes hard but isn't malicious. If you watch the play closely, you can kind of see him realizing what he was doing in the act, and stopping himself just before he altered Blake's flight.

To me this really isn't that big of a deal. Every season you can count on a few threads cropping up, overanalyzing what is basically a standard phantom call. I've seen worse phantom calls than this. The only reason its a thread is because Blake's an exciting player. I couldn't be bothered about that tic tac flagrant if it was Gerald Henderson.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 04:36 PM
You said that any push would have a profound effect. That is a lie. The momentum change in the person in the air is directly the momentum applied to him. A small push will have a small effect - hence why in this case there was very little altering of Griffin's trajectory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbSy4GY02XI

Perfect example of momentum and basketball physics for you. In otherwords you are dead wrong. The slightest contact while AIRBORNE absolutely can and regularly does have catastrophic results. This applies to machines as well as humans.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 04:37 PM
David Lee doesn't strike me as a dirty player. I remember him well from his Knicks days. The exact type of player i enjoy rooting for. He goes hard but isn't malicious. If you watch the play closely, you can kind of see him realizing what he was doing in the act, and stopping himself just before he altered Blake's flight.

To me this really isn't that big of a deal. Every season you can count on a few threads cropping up, overanalyzing what is basically a standard phantom call. I've seen worse phantom calls than this. The only reason its a thread is because Blake's an exciting player. I couldn't be bothered about that tic tac flagrant if it was Gerald Henderson.

I agree 100 percent that it was not malicious and that Lee held back and is a good guy. No doubt he wouldn't want to harm Blake. So I would go nowhere close to classifying this as "dirty". But to act like it was a basketball play and not worthy of a flagrant 1 call by definition of what that constitutes is dumb.

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:41 PM
You said that any push would have a profound effect. That is a lie. The momentum change in the person in the air is directly the momentum applied to him. A small push will have a small effect - hence why in this case there was very little altering of Griffin's trajectory.
Im not seeing why you think the 2 ideas are mutually exclusive. Ive tried to clarify my position for you but have not mentioned anything about it. AGAIN. Im comparing the effects of such a nudge while in midflight vs while being grounded. Its called resistance, the force of that nudge is nothing while grounded but in the air its a foul. And its your opinion that there was very little altering, to me it was clear as day that it was enough of a difference to warrant what it inevitably proved to be. A Flagrant Foul

Chronz
01-06-2013, 04:43 PM
David Lee doesn't strike me as a dirty player. I remember him well from his Knicks days. The exact type of player i enjoy rooting for. He goes hard but isn't malicious. If you watch the play closely, you can kind of see him realizing what he was doing in the act, and stopping himself just before he altered Blake's flight.

To me this really isn't that big of a deal. Every season you can count on a few threads cropping up, overanalyzing what is basically a standard phantom call. I've seen worse phantom calls than this. The only reason its a thread is because Blake's an exciting player. I couldn't be bothered about that tic tac flagrant if it was Gerald Henderson.

Maybe its just me but I dont consider every flagrant foul to be a dirty foul, if that makes sense. Like I understand the heat of battle reaction as opposed to a premeditated hit. Some dirty fouls arent even techs sometimes but anytime you push someone in midflight, you should expect a flagrant.

KnickaBocka.44
01-06-2013, 04:49 PM
It was a really poorly thrown pass. I can't tell if Lee could see the pass, but it almost looked like he expected Blake to come down with it and he was going to try and make a play on it at that time.

Cracka2HI!
01-06-2013, 05:02 PM
It's OK, I understand you all hate Blake. You'd all be crying like babies if your 2nd best player got pushed from behind in a non basketball manner while he was 3 feet above the ground to stop a sure dunk. It was a flagrant. Lee was not making a play on the ball and it was a dangerous play. HATERS!!!!

Monta is beast
01-06-2013, 05:20 PM
Personally I love it. Blake Griffin is a cry baby *****, and every single times he even thinks about dunking someone on the Warriors clobbers his ***** ***. I ****ing love it.

Monta is beast
01-06-2013, 05:21 PM
And it's not like he pushed him hard. He barely even touched him.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 05:23 PM
Personally I love it. Blake Griffin is a cry baby *****, and every single times he even thinks about dunking someone on the Warriors clobbers his ***** ***. I ****ing love it.

How did that work out for you guys last night? You're lucky the starters were pulled so early or it would of been a 50 point *** whoopin.

LakersMaster24
01-06-2013, 05:28 PM
Personally I love it. Blake Griffin is a cry baby *****, and every single times he even thinks about dunking someone on the Warriors clobbers his ***** ***. I ****ing love it.

How did that work out for you guys last night? You're lucky the starters were pulled so early or it would of been a 50 point *** whoopin.

At least the Warriors have banners.

LakersMaster24
01-06-2013, 05:30 PM
I hope Lee a actually pushed Griffin hard and Griffin blew his knees and was forced into retirement. That would give you Clippers fans a reason to whine and cry about.

Cracka2HI!
01-06-2013, 05:48 PM
I hope Lee a actually pushed Griffin hard and Griffin blew his knees and was forced into retirement. That would give you Clippers fans a reason to whine and cry about.

Keep wishing for things like this and your life will be filled with joy and success!

Monta is beast
01-06-2013, 05:49 PM
How did that work out for you guys last night? You're lucky the starters were pulled so early or it would of been a 50 point *** whoopin.

Is that why we already beat you in L.A once, and just beat you at oracle? And are 2-1 against you this season? And did all this without our starting Center? And don't have a bunch of bandwagon fans that only show up to games when the team is good? Yeah didn't think so.

Monta is beast
01-06-2013, 05:51 PM
I would have no problem with Griffin, if he didn't complain like a little ***** about everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWaZ3oYOZZw

"stop flopping"

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 06:44 PM
Is that why we already beat you in L.A once, and just beat you at oracle? And are 2-1 against you this season? And did all this without our starting Center? And don't have a bunch of bandwagon fans that only show up to games when the team is good? Yeah didn't think so.

Look chump if you want to celebrate a 2-1 series lead that's up to you but the way I see it is... your team is looking up in the standings at the Clippers by a decent margin and is the only team in the last 2 decades or so to have LESS success than the Clippers.

You don't get to puff your chest out at Clippers fans yet. You beat the Clippers in LA but the game was tied up with 90 seconds left and the Clippers played like complete trash before making a huge run in the 4th quarter.

As for the fans the Clippers had good attendance even in bad years and have always had a great fanbase. Not as loud and obnoxious as the Warriors fanbase but that has a hell of a lot to do with how many sports teams are in LA compared to Oakland/San Fran area sports.

You can have a 3-1 series win for all I care while the Clippers make a run for the title and your team is out in the first round.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 06:45 PM
I would have no problem with Griffin, if he didn't complain like a little ***** about everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWaZ3oYOZZw

"stop flopping"

David Lee complains more than Griffin so why don't you hate him you hypocrite fu**?

P Styles
01-06-2013, 06:50 PM
No respect for floppers

ohreally
01-06-2013, 07:09 PM
While in mid-air about to catch a lob? I dont think I see many of those but Im open to being wrong.



True but there is a special awareness for fouls committed while players are vulnerable in the air. Like it or not, this is something the NBA has been cleaning up for awhile.


Im pretty sure, in the NBA, if a player doesn't have the ball, you arent making an attempt ON THE BALL.


I disagree, seems fairly obvious it should have been a clear path foul on top of a flagrant, tho Im not sure if that even exists.

Clear path , now? Wow, that's pushing absurdity beyond the limits of the word.

Lee was running down court same as Blake, he reached out and more touched him than pushed him while Lee's left hand first went to trying to the left to possibly disrup an incoming pass. Lee touches Blake AS Blake is starting to go up. There is no real contact after that. The "in the air" business is really distorting the facts and ignoring the play as I developed in real time. Watch the full speed part, not th repla where you can assume contact that wasn't there.

Maybe on an in-bounds play there may hav been a clear path call in somewhat similar situations, but if so, they have been extremely rare. There is a defensive player pretty much at the baseline off to the left when the foul occurs. To argue that a guy going up for a dunk, even off a fast break, has a clear path because no one is literally in front of him is a flagrant distortion of the rule. It's one thing to see what you want to see in the call that was made, but "clear path" just makes a mockery of the whole game. Why not just make games extended slam dunk contests?

felixng2012
01-06-2013, 07:22 PM
Lee pushed him mid air when he didn't even have the ball. Its a blatant flagrant. Excessive and unnecessary.
Not really debatable if you have any idea about what you are talking about.

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 07:28 PM
Lee pushed him mid air when he didn't even have the ball. Its a blatant flagrant. Excessive and unnecessary.
Not really debatable if you have any idea about what you are talking about.

People would rather let their personal dislike of a great young player get in the way of the what the NBA rule states.

TrueFan420
01-06-2013, 07:59 PM
Lee pushed him mid air when he didn't even have the ball. Its a blatant flagrant. Excessive and unnecessary.
Not really debatable if you have any idea about what you are talking about.

If the players involved switched roles they might not even have called a foul

ohreally
01-06-2013, 08:53 PM
Lee pushed him mid air when he didn't even have the ball. Its a blatant flagrant. Excessive and unnecessary.
Not really debatable if you have any idea about what you are talking about.


Push and mid air are both exaggerations. But at least you got the last sentence right.

Cracka2HI!
01-06-2013, 08:57 PM
I thought it was flagrant, but I would have been OK with it being a normal foul. It certainly wasn't a flop though.

Sactown
01-06-2013, 09:07 PM
I honestly didn't think it was a flagrant foul, but I can understand it with the history between the two teams, and the officials not wanting to get the game out of hand..

I hate when people talk about "making a move on the ball" during an ally oop... because it would otherwise be impossible to stop a player from grabbing and finishing... wrapping someone up before the make a move on the ball isn't a flagrant even if said player doesn't have the ball yet.. clearly it was a cautious call to make sure the game doesn't get out of hand...

anyone who says different hasn't watched much basketball, We've all seen much harder hits get less notice.

tapajafri
01-06-2013, 09:12 PM
Yeah, that's a flagrant foul. The amount of contact and how "hard" of a foul isn't in play here. The reason why it's a flagrant is because Lee deliberately pushed him while he was in the air, and that kind of action can lead to serious injury, especially to a soaring player who can jump as high as Griffin.

It's not a dirty play by any means. Lee isn't a dirty player and it wasn't a hard foul. BUt it's almost like purposely undercutting someone in the air, which can lead to serious injury. The refs made the right call by calling this a flagrant. If players started pushing dunkers every time they went up for a lob, we'd see some more serious injuries to the head, neck, back, etc.


Everyone who's saying it's not a flagrant foul is only saying that because they're only looking at how "hard" or "aggressive" a typical flagrant foul is. They're looking for that hit to the head, the smack, or whatever that we usually see when a flagrant foul occurs. But this is also a flagrant, even though it was a soft push compared to the hard smack. This soft push can't be tolerated because high flyers are at higher risk for serious injury if they're pushed or undercut or something while they're in the air.

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 09:24 PM
I hope Lee a actually pushed Griffin hard and Griffin blew his knees and was forced into retirement. That would give you Clippers fans a reason to whine and cry about.

ha, one more season of having a terrible team would probably make this guy kill himself.

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 09:26 PM
I would have no problem with Griffin, if he didn't complain like a little ***** about everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWaZ3oYOZZw

"stop flopping"

he was actually asking blake for some money and fame.

sf-fanatic
01-06-2013, 09:36 PM
So let me get this straight, you think the announcers can influence a call made on the court, and your calling them ********? :facepalm:

Read the rule book, this was the very definition of a flagrant. No attempt could be made on the ball

FYI in the rulebook there is nothing that says that not playing the ball is a flagrant. I'm not sure where everyone is getting that definition from, but I see that definition thrown out many times. Definition of flagrant foul from NBA website.

Section IV--Flagrant Foul
a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be unnecessary, a flagrant foul--penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.

b. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpret-ed to be unnecessary and excessive, a flagrant foul--penalty (2) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.


When players grab players at the end of games should those be flagrants too? There was no play made on the ball.

IMO, was this a personal foul? Yes. Maybe a little dirty, but not flagrant. Is Lee supposed to get out of his way and let him dunk it? Lee was just trying to prevent a dunk.

kylem4711
01-06-2013, 09:57 PM
FYI in the rulebook there is nothing that says that not playing the ball is a flagrant. I'm not sure where everyone is getting that definition from, but I see that definition thrown out many times. Definition of flagrant foul from NBA website.

Section IV--Flagrant Foul
a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be unnecessary, a flagrant foul--penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.

b. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpret-ed to be unnecessary and excessive, a flagrant foul--penalty (2) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.


When players grab players at the end of games should those be flagrants too? There was no play made on the ball.

IMO, was this a personal foul? Yes. Maybe a little dirty, but not flagrant. Is Lee supposed to get out of his way and let him dunk it? Lee was just trying to prevent a dunk.

This is what I found:


The League Office will review all flagrant fouls ("1" and "2"), and will have the right, following review, to reclassify a flagrant foul or to classify as flagrant a foul not called flagrant during a game. In addition, the League Office maintains the right to impose a fine and/or suspension upon any player who commits a flagrant foul at any time during the Playoffs (regardless of whether the point levels described above are reached).

The League Office will consider the following factors (as well as any other relevant facts and circumstances) in determining whether to classify a foul as Flagrant "1" or Flagrant "2", to reclassify a flagrant foul, or to impose a fine and/or suspension on the player involved:

1. The severity of the contact;
2. Whether or not the player was making a legitimate basketball play (e.g., whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot; note, however, that a foul committed during a block attempt can still be considered flagrant if other criteria are present such as recklessness and hard contact to the head);
3. Whether, on a foul committed with a player's arm or hand, the fouling player wound up and/or followed through after making contact;
4. The potential for injury resulting from contact (e.g., a blow to the head and a foul committed while a player is in a vulnerable position);
5. The severity of any injury suffered by the offended player; and
6. The outcome of the contact (e.g., whether it led to an altercation).

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/04/18/flagrant.technical/index.html

this refers to the league office looking into the flagrants, but it also has to be what the refs are doing as well.

in my opinion, im guessing cause i'm a clipper fan, blake was in a vulnerable position. i guess that can be up for debate though

FlashMacker
01-06-2013, 10:00 PM
It's OK, I understand you all hate Blake. You'd all be crying like babies if your 2nd best player got pushed from behind in a non basketball manner while he was 3 feet above the ground to stop a sure dunk. It was a flagrant. Lee was not making a play on the ball and it was a dangerous play. HATERS!!!!


He's my favorite player but I don't think it was a flagrant.

ThaDubs
01-06-2013, 10:31 PM
How did that work out for you guys last night? You're lucky the starters were pulled so early or it would of been a 50 point *** whoopin.

Haha. Don't act like the Warriors didn't whoop your *** the first two times this season. :laugh2:

Clippersfan86
01-06-2013, 11:48 PM
Haha. Don't act like the Warriors didn't whoop your *** the first two times this season. :laugh2:

They whooped the Clippers by 21 once and that was close until the 4th quarter, unlike this one where the lead was 23 at the half and 39 in the 3rd quarter before the Clippers pulled their starters. Clippers established their superiority over the Warriors IMMEDIATELY and we are even further from full strength than you guys with Billups, Hill, Crawford and Thompkins all out.

That doesn't mention that ALL 3 times now the Warriors were on 3 days rest prior to the games while the Clippers were coming off another game the night before. For the 21 point loss in GS the Clippers didn't get into town until 4 AM on game day. If you don't think that affects a team you're in denial. As for game 1... it was a tie game with 90 seconds left and the Warriors hit something like 18 threes and had their best shooting game of the season, so don't use that as the standard.

sf-fanatic
01-07-2013, 12:04 AM
They whooped the Clippers by 21 once and that was close until the 4th quarter, unlike this one where the lead was 23 at the half and 39 in the 3rd quarter before the Clippers pulled their starters. Clippers established their superiority over the Warriors IMMEDIATELY and we are even further from full strength than you guys with Billups, Hill, Crawford and Thompkins all out.

That doesn't mention that ALL 3 times now the Warriors were on 3 days rest prior to the games while the Clippers were coming off another game the night before. For the 21 point loss in GS the Clippers didn't get into town until 4 AM on game day. If you don't think that affects a team you're in denial. As for game 1... it was a tie game with 90 seconds left and the Warriors hit something like 18 threes and had their best shooting game of the season, so don't use that as the standard.

Rather a 39 point win or 1 point win, it only counts for one win in the standinga.

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 12:04 AM
They whooped the Clippers by 21 once and that was close until the 4th quarter, unlike this one where the lead was 23 at the half and 39 in the 3rd quarter before the Clippers pulled their starters. Clippers established their superiority over the Warriors IMMEDIATELY and we are even further from full strength than you guys with Billups, Hill, Crawford and Thompkins all out.

Close until the 4th!? You kidding? To start the game we went on something like a 26-8 stretch. If you don't call that immediate superiority then I don't know what is. And if you can argue that you were missing a few key bench players, I can argue that we were missing who some consider our best player, and our 6th man. We're 2-1 in the season series. If the season series record was put on it's head then you'd probably be bashing me for coming up with excuses like you are.

kylem4711
01-07-2013, 12:12 AM
Rather a 39 point win or 1 point win, it only counts for one win in the standinga.

vin diesel, that you?

sf-fanatic
01-07-2013, 12:17 AM
vin diesel, that you?

No, my name is logic.

kylem4711
01-07-2013, 12:38 AM
No, my name is logic.

he said the exact thing in the fast and the furious. sorry you didnt get that.

sf-fanatic
01-07-2013, 12:47 AM
he said the exact thing in the fast and the furious. sorry you didnt get that.

ohh lol my bad

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 01:08 AM
Close until the 4th!? You kidding? To start the game we went on something like a 26-8 stretch. If you don't call that immediate superiority then I don't know what is. And if you can argue that you were missing a few key bench players, I can argue that we were missing who some consider our best player, and our 6th man. We're 2-1 in the season series. If the season series record was put on it's head then you'd probably be bashing me for coming up with excuses like you are.

The Clippers went on a 27-5 run and had it within 10 points or less for quite a long time. Bottom line is you can have your 2-1 series lead trophy with one game still to play and I'll take a significantly better chance at the title and much higher seeding with my team.

kylem4711
01-07-2013, 01:28 AM
ohh lol my bad

no worries. i guess not everyone still makes fun of that movie as much as I do

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 01:29 AM
The Clippers went on a 27-5 run and had it within 10 points or less for quite a long time. Bottom line is you can have your 2-1 series lead trophy with one game still to play and I'll take a significantly better chance at the title and much higher seeding with my team.

Which is true. But I'm just going to second Charles Barkley and say the Clippers aren't as good as people think.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 01:29 AM
Rather a 39 point win or 1 point win, it only counts for one win in the standinga.
Thats true literally but being a team that blows teams out of the water says more about you than barely scraping by.

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 01:31 AM
Which is true. But I'm just going to second Charles Barkley and say the Clippers aren't as good as people think.

You're entitled to that opinion. The playoffs is where that will be proven true or false. Barkley is known for having a weird dislike of teams and spreading bad information. The Clippers are a halfcourt team that plays at a slow pace yet that's supposedly our weakness? :facepalm:. Clippers are the only team that has been a top 5 offense AND defense all year long. They have less weakness than pretty much any other team in the NBA. OKC has weaknesses, so does the Heat and Spurs.

sf-fanatic
01-07-2013, 01:55 AM
Thats true literally but being a team that blows teams out of the water says more about you than barely scraping by.

I'm not really into the "omg we beat u guys by 30 so we must be superior" discussions but lets not forget the previous game was also a blowout.

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 02:02 AM
You're entitled to that opinion. The playoffs is where that will be proven true or false. Barkley is known for having a weird dislike of teams and spreading bad information. The Clippers are a halfcourt team that plays at a slow pace yet that's supposedly our weakness? :facepalm:. Clippers are the only team that has been a top 5 offense AND defense all year long. They have less weakness than pretty much any other team in the NBA. OKC has weaknesses, so does the Heat and Spurs.

I know this about Charles Barkley and I just happen to agree with him on this one. I think you guys are better than the Warriors but not as good as people think. You guys are full of talent and depth and could make a huge run in the playoffs but again I think chances are you guys would fall to Heat, Spurs, or OKC.

Toxeryll
01-07-2013, 02:04 AM
flagrant in my eyes

JLynn943
01-07-2013, 02:15 AM
Im not seeing why you think the 2 ideas are mutually exclusive. Ive tried to clarify my position for you but have not mentioned anything about it. AGAIN. Im comparing the effects of such a nudge while in midflight vs while being grounded. Its called resistance, the force of that nudge is nothing while grounded but in the air its a foul. And its your opinion that there was very little altering, to me it was clear as day that it was enough of a difference to warrant what it inevitably proved to be. A Flagrant Foul

You're ignoring what you actually said. Your "clarifications" are irrelevant. There is not a "profound" effect on forward momentum from just any contact - regardless of whether the player is in the air or on the ground. The laws of physics do not allow for it. The applied force can turn the player and alter their trajectory, but no more than the initial force applied. In simpler terms, a light push isn't going to make someone go flying. Can it be dangerous if there was enough force to turn the person? Sure. But what you said is incorrect:


In mid-flight ANY sort of push will have a profound effect on your forward momentum. Particularly when they are already leaping forward

No, it won't. The effect on forward momentum will not exceed the momentum applied by the push. Light contact such as this case will not profoundly effect forward momentum.

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 02:57 AM
I know this about Charles Barkley and I just happen to agree with him on this one. I think you guys are better than the Warriors but not as good as people think. You guys are full of talent and depth and could make a huge run in the playoffs but again I think chances are you guys would fall to Heat, Spurs, or OKC.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong. Clippers need to prove they can do it in the deep playoffs before we crown them anything. I'm actually a big fan of the Warriors turnaround and like your team. I just lashed out a bit because you were trolling.

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 03:00 AM
You're ignoring what you actually said. Your "clarifications" are irrelevant. There is not a "profound" effect on forward momentum from just any contact - regardless of whether the player is in the air or on the ground. The laws of physics do not allow for it. The applied force can turn the player and alter their trajectory, but no more than the initial force applied. In simpler terms, a light push isn't going to make someone go flying. Can it be dangerous if there was enough force to turn the person? Sure. But what you said is incorrect:



No, it won't. The effect on forward momentum will not exceed the momentum applied by the push. Light contact such as this case will not profoundly effect forward momentum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbSy4GY02XI

Explain this then physics expert. I saw pretty much zero contact, far less than what Blake took and the results were pretty catastrophic. I'm 100 percent sure you would of failed a physics class based on your understanding of momentum. As a sports fan you should know better.

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 03:03 AM
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong. Clippers need to prove they can do it in the deep playoffs before we crown them anything. I'm actually a big fan of the Warriors turnaround and like your team. I just lashed out a bit because you were trolling.

Lol same I honestly love the Clips and have for a while.
I'm just really defensive of my Warriors.
In fact, my parents are thinking about buying 4 court side seats for an upcoming Clippers game that are available right now :)

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 03:10 AM
Lol same I honestly love the Clips and have for a while.
I'm just really defensive of my Warriors.
In fact, my parents are thinking about buying 4 court side seats for an upcoming Clippers game that are available right now :)

I'm the same, so I understand. I think it comes from being fans of teams that have been bad for so long.. and when we finally start getting good people wanna run their mouths. At least that's why I'm so defensive. Probably like you... I feel like I've paid my dues and deserve to celebrate this success after 14 years of suffering lol.

That would be dope. The Warriors and Clippers always have great shootouts. Warriors are actually the team that worries me the most the last 3 years or so. You guys just love knocking down 100 threes against us every time.

JLynn943
01-07-2013, 03:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbSy4GY02XI

Explain this then physics expert. I saw pretty much zero contact, far less than what Blake took and the results were pretty catastrophic. I'm 100 percent sure you would of failed a physics class based on your understanding of momentum. As a sports fan you should know better.

That didn't change his forward momentum much at all. All it did was turn him so he didn't land on his feet. It's pretty easy to see that his trajectory (and forward momentum) remained pretty much the same it would have been without the contact.

Also, I have a Bachelor's degree in industrial engineering which required me to take 2 physics courses (both of which I did well in), so you are "100 percent" incorrect.

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 03:18 AM
That didn't change his forward momentum much at all. All it did was turn him so he didn't land on his feet. It's pretty easy to see that his trajectory (and forward momentum) remained pretty much the same it would have been without the contact.

Also, I have a Bachelor's degree in industrial engineering which required me to take 2 physics courses (both of which I did well in), so you are "100 percent" incorrect.

Then you're educated and not ignorant to the topic which makes it worse, it's just straight up bias on your part. I'm honestly not even sure what point your making because based on how the NBA refs these types of plays it's always a flagrant foul.

On top of it these teams have been playing very chippy so it could partially be called a flagrant to control it from getting out of hand. Nothing really to discuss because Lee knee what he was doing. I've seen players get called for flagrants that were accidental for example.

JLynn943
01-07-2013, 03:22 AM
Then you're educated and not ignorant to the topic which makes it worse, it's just straight up bias on your part. I'm honestly not even sure what point your making because based on how the NBA refs these types of plays it's always a flagrant foul.

On top of it these teams have been playing very chippy so it could partially be called a flagrant to control it from getting out of hand. Nothing really to discuss because Lee knee what he was doing. I've seen players get called for flagrants that were accidental for example.

I said previously in the thread that, by the books, I agree that it's a flagrant. I really don't think I'm being biased here at all as I have no reason to be. I was taking issue with Chronz making the foul out to be more violent/dangerous that it was by making up physics.

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 03:29 AM
I said previously in the thread that, by the books, I agree that it's a flagrant. I really don't think I'm being biased here at all as I have no reason to be. I was taking issue with Chronz making the foul out to be more violent/dangerous that it was by making up physics.

I misunderstood you then but since you clarified I guess I have nothing to argue about with you. Have at it with Chronz.

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 04:08 AM
I'm the same, so I understand. I think it comes from being fans of teams that have been bad for so long.. and when we finally start getting good people wanna run their mouths. At least that's why I'm so defensive. Probably like you... I feel like I've paid my dues and deserve to celebrate this success after 14 years of suffering lol.

That would be dope. The Warriors and Clippers always have great shootouts. Warriors are actually the team that worries me the most the last 3 years or so. You guys just love knocking down 100 threes against us every time.

Yeah we deserve these runs. I just love looking at the conference standings and seeing Warriors up near the top but having to almost scroll down to see the Lakers. :laugh2:

But yeah I would love to go against the Clippers in the playoffs. They're two extremely different teams and even though it would most likely go your way I would still like to see how it would go down.

dalton749
01-07-2013, 08:44 AM
going by this scale every time derozan goes up should be a flagrant 2 he gets ****ed up and pull down all the time no call

ziglur
01-07-2013, 09:58 AM
The nba is getting more girly everyday. Like to see Rodman guard hisway some of these so called stars of today They would cry a river!

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 11:12 AM
going by this scale every time derozan goes up should be a flagrant 2 he gets ****ed up and pull down all the time no call

Yeah but the difference is whether or not you like it the NBA preserves it's stars like Blake, Lebron, KD, Kobe, etc and for now Demar doesn't fall into that category.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 11:51 AM
You're ignoring what you actually said. Your "clarifications" are irrelevant.
Nope, I know the context of my words, the clarification was for you. If you want to ignore it then you can come to any conclusion you want, sadly clarifications are for moments with these sort of disconnects. The push is equal to the push applied, that fact still holds true within my rationale.


There is not a "profound" effect on forward momentum from just any contact - regardless of whether the player is in the air or on the ground. The laws of physics do not allow for it.
False, a grounded player has the advantage of resistance, a player in midflight is in a much more vulnerable position. Thus the flagrant. As weak as that push may look, you have to remember the player is in the air and has no way of resisting said push. The laws of physics allow for this because resistance/friction exists, which is what I was comparing by mentioning his mid-flight take off.




The applied force can turn the player and alter their trajectory, but no more than the initial force applied. In simpler terms, a light push isn't going to make someone go flying. Can it be dangerous if there was enough force to turn the person? Sure. But what you said is incorrect:
Im still waiting for you to prove its incorrect. Again, the player was in MIDFLIGHT. The point of me mentioning that is to focus on the difference between someone who is or isnt grounded. Thus the comparison is profoundly different.



No, it won't. The effect on forward momentum will not exceed the momentum applied by the push. Light contact such as this case will not profoundly effect forward momentum.
A push of any kind on a player in midflight will have a much stronger influence than someone who is grounded. Its called resistance, thats why its having a profound effect on his forward momentum. Its why he had a hard time landing. I agree with the math, if the force of the push was any more than that then it would have been equally worse. Thats why he was only assessed a Flagrant 1.


Feel free to continue ignoring my point but if you choose to continue this discussion I will not waste time explaining it all to you again, I will simply revert to JB style copy and pasting.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 11:52 AM
I'm not really into the "omg we beat u guys by 30 so we must be superior" discussions but lets not forget the previous game was also a blowout.
Im not getting into that either, just saying is all.

LongIslandIcedZ
01-07-2013, 12:10 PM
Would it have been a flagrant if it was Blake fouling DLee?

Chronz
01-07-2013, 12:10 PM
Clear path , now? Wow, that's pushing absurdity beyond the limits of the word.

Lee was running down court same as Blake, he reached out and more touched him than pushed him while Lee's left hand first went to trying to the left to possibly disrup an incoming pass.
I think you have a better time arguing that the ball was behind both of them than arguing Lee was running with Blake. But if he was running alongside him then there is no foul but I thought he was pushed in the back.


Lee touches Blake AS Blake is starting to go up. There is no real contact after that. The "in the air" business is really distorting the facts and ignoring the play as I developed in real time. Watch the full speed part, not th repla where you can assume contact that wasn't there.

I saw it live and instantly knew he had been pushed. Blake doesn't miss time his jumps like that, he was clearly well ahead of where he would be if his flight path wasn't interrupted. Typically he doesn't have that hard a time landing either but because he was already going forward, the push had a strong effect on his landing.


Maybe on an in-bounds play there may hav been a clear path call in somewhat similar situations, but if so, they have been extremely rare. There is a defensive player pretty much at the baseline off to the left when the foul occurs.
WTF? How do you commit a clear path foul off an inbounds?


To argue that a guy going up for a dunk, even off a fast break, has a clear path because no one is literally in front of him is a flagrant distortion of the rule.
I dont believe you, in fact Im pretty sure thats the exact definition of a clear path. So long as no one is ahead of the ball, ANY sort of foul will warrant the call.


It's one thing to see what you want to see in the call that was made, but "clear path" just makes a mockery of the whole game. Why not just make games extended slam dunk contests?
Because games dont see this situations often enough to warrant a name change. And I dont see what makes it a mockery if its in the rule book.

The only reason I dont think it was a clear "clear path foul" is because of the balls position during the foul.

ThaDubs
01-07-2013, 12:14 PM
Probably not, but do you think the NBA gives a **** about David? No. He doesn't bring in big money. Blake has superiority over him because of his marketability so most of the reff calls are gonna go his way to preserve his body.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 12:22 PM
FYI in the rulebook there is nothing that says that not playing the ball is a flagrant. I'm not sure where everyone is getting that definition from, but I see that definition thrown out many times. Definition of flagrant foul from NBA website.
Your right, I can only say that making a play on the ball implies some sort of basketball oriented action, when a player doesn't have the ball, any sort of foul is clearly just an assault on the players body. Yes it was a soft assault but the NBA has special rules for players in midflight. This smallest push on a player that vulnerable can have horrible consequences, so the NBA cleans these plays up.


When players grab players at the end of games should those be flagrants too? There was no play made on the ball.
If the player is in mid-air and was pushed from behind then yes.


IMO, was this a personal foul? Yes. Maybe a little dirty, but not flagrant.
Funny, I feel it wasn't dirty but still a flagrant foul. I didn't get the sense that he was trying to hurt Blake, just get him off balance and hope he lands well, but you have to live with the consequences.


Is Lee supposed to get out of his way and let him dunk it? Lee was just trying to prevent a dunk
From what Ive heard, Lee is content stopping a dunk even at the expense of a flagrant so I think he knows what hes doing and Im pretty sure hes fine with the results. It doesn't make him dirty at all to me.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 12:51 PM
Probably not, but do you think the NBA gives a **** about David? No. He doesn't bring in big money. Blake has superiority over him because of his marketability so most of the reff calls are gonna go his way to preserve his body.
I might be biased but I dont think Blake gets the benefit of the doubt at all, his rookie year he did but his flopping/arguing routine got old and he got less love last year.
Hes done a better job of not arguing and I want to think the refs are respecting that hes taking some pretty big hits without much of a complaint but that foul was just a no brainer.

AIRMAR72
01-07-2013, 01:14 PM
good hard foul lets move'on

JLynn943
01-07-2013, 02:08 PM
Nope, I know the context of my words, the clarification was for you. If you want to ignore it then you can come to any conclusion you want, sadly clarifications are for moments with these sort of disconnects. The push is equal to the push applied, that fact still holds true within my rationale.
Not your original statement of any push having a profound effect.



False, a grounded player has the advantage of resistance, a player in midflight is in a much more vulnerable position. Thus the flagrant. As weak as that push may look, you have to remember the player is in the air and has no way of resisting said push. The laws of physics allow for this because resistance/friction exists, which is what I was comparing by mentioning his mid-flight take off.
You're trying to refute what I'm saying by arguing an entirely different point. I'm not saying (nor have I said) that being on the ground isn't an advantage. I'm saying that your statement of a profound effect on forward momentum from "ANY" push is incorrect. In that statement, you were not comparing anything to my understanding.



Im still waiting for you to prove its incorrect. Again, the player was in MIDFLIGHT. The point of me mentioning that is to focus on the difference between someone who is or isnt grounded. Thus the comparison is profoundly different.

So you're changing what was "profound" to the difference? Not the effect that "ANY" push would have in mid-air?



A push of any kind on a player in midflight will have a much stronger influence than someone who is grounded. Its called resistance, thats why its having a profound effect on his forward momentum. Its why he had a hard time landing. I agree with the math, if the force of the push was any more than that then it would have been equally worse. Thats why he was only assessed a Flagrant 1.
I agree 100%, but that isn't what I'm arguing. You said any push will have a profound effect. The change in the momentum of the player cannot be any greater than the applied momentum


Feel free to continue ignoring my point but if you choose to continue this discussion I will not waste time explaining it all to you again, I will simply revert to JB style copy and pasting.
I'm not ignoring your point - I'm waiting for you to respond with something relevant. Copy and paste away and I'll do the same.

Chronz
01-07-2013, 02:33 PM
You're trying to refute what I'm saying by arguing an entirely different point. I'm not saying (nor have I said) that being on the ground isn't an advantage. I'm saying that your statement of a profound effect on forward momentum from "ANY" push is incorrect. In that statement, you were not comparing anything to my understanding.
Which is why I clarified my stance to YOU, when mentioning in my OP that the player was in MID-AIR, I was making the assumption that the poster would understand the scope of my argument, which from his response seems to be the case. I was emphasizing it for a reason. The comparison was made, I apologize if that wasn't clear enough for you to begin with but again, thats why I clarified my position. You seem to be on this crusade to expose misuse of proper terminologies but the idea I am trying to convey is sound. If it makes you feel any better, you could have worded it better than I could have with your understanding of physics. Hopefully that gets you off my case.



So you're changing what was "profound" to the difference? Not the effect that "ANY" push would have in mid-air?
Now you lost me.

Im not changing anything, the force of that push is profoundly different for a player that is in MID-AIR as opposed to a player on the ground.

Thats the message I was trying to convey, sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you but you were not its intended recipient.

tredigs
01-07-2013, 02:49 PM
Thankfully this is the first highlight I saw of that games abomination, but that was clearly a pathetic and preventative flagrant ruling. Nothing about that play was "flagrant", but in another world where he actually used force to push Blake off his center of gravity causing a potentially bad fall, this would have been a dirty/flagrant act.

However I don't see much of a difference here between this and any of the innumerable pushes in the lower back that we see when somebody's trying to steal a board under the basket to the rising rebounder. I've never seen that called a flagrant before, so I'll just assume that Blake's star status and the fact that he was moving forward rather than just up were the difference makers here.

Regardless, not a play D. Lee needs to be making, but I'd like to think he is smart enough not to knock him off center to the point that Blake would actually take a serious tumble. Which was the case here, where Blake received the equivalent of a pat on the back.

And I haven't followed this thread at all, but 15 pages? Really?

Chronz
01-07-2013, 02:53 PM
Thankfully this is the first highlight I saw of that games abomination, but that was clearly a pathetic and preventative flagrant ruling. Nothing about that play was "flagrant", but in another world where he actually used force to push Blake off his center of gravity causing a potentially bad fall, this would have been a dirty/flagrant act.
To be more precise, in THAT world, the act would have been a flagrant 2 and most definitely a suspension. Instead of this run of the mill flagrant, the kind Lee admits willing to unleash in place of a dunk.


However I don't see much of a difference here between this and any of the innumerable pushes in the lower back that we see when somebody's trying to steal a board under the basket. I've never seen that called a flagrant before, so I'll just assume that Blake's star status and the fact that he was moving forward rather than just up were the difference makers here.
Forward momentum FTW. Not sure how much it matters but Im pretty sure the NBA treats these fouls differently.

Clippersfan86
01-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Tredigs another thing you forgot to mention is Blake Griffin has been taking cheapshots his entire career (leads the NBA in flagrants taken by a decent margin over Lebron every year so far). The NBA watches very closely with Blake because a lot of teams will just straight up tackle him to prevent dunks and it's caused a lot of fights and drama they want out of the game.

kylem4711
01-07-2013, 04:36 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSlszw4WEgk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ha