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View Full Version : Would OKC be better off with Harden instead of Westbrook?



poleandreel
01-03-2013, 08:46 PM
As a Thunder fan, I absolutely love Westbrook. But that being said, I also really loved harden. When the trade happened, I was mad but saw what we got back and was okay with the deal. However, it looks like that may not have been the best option.

-Durant was clearly closer to Harden than he is with Westbrook
-Harden has shows to more efficient even as a number 1 option in Houston than Westbrook is with Durant
-Having watched every Thunder game for the past 5 years, it is clear that Harden is also a better passer than Westbrook. That being said, he could definitely play the PG role on this team.
-Harden is fast enough to guard PG's
-Harden makes much better decisions with the ball and always deferred to Durant when it was time.
-Harden is a much better long range shooter and better finisher than Westbrook.

I think we could have gotten more for Westbrook anyway and Harden is cheaper.

It really bugs me to think about the what-if, had we traded westy instead.

poleandreel
01-03-2013, 08:49 PM
Does anyone think Jeremy Lin stopped this from happening? I mean, had Houston not signed Lin, maybe presti would have been inclined to move westrbook to houston. But since lin was already there and Hosuton could offer the best package, they moved Harden instead?

ManRam
01-03-2013, 08:54 PM
As a Thunder fan, I absolutely love Westbrook. But that being said, I also really loved harden. When the trade happened, I was mad but saw what we got back and was okay with the deal. However, it looks like that may not have been the best option.

-Durant was clearly closer to Harden than he is with Westbrook
-Harden has shows to more efficient even as a number 1 option in Houston than Westbrook is with Durant
-Having watched every Thunder game for the past 5 years, it is clear that Harden is also a better passer than Westbrook. That being said, he could definitely play the PG role on this team.
-Harden is fast enough to guard PG's
-Harden makes much better decisions with the ball and always deferred to Durant when it was time.
-Harden is a much better long range shooter and better finisher than Westbrook.

I think we could have gotten more for Westbrook anyway and Harden is cheaper.

It really bugs me to think about the what-if, had we traded westy instead.

I don't think I agree with the bolded two.

poleandreel
01-03-2013, 08:58 PM
I don't think I agree with the bolded two.

ManRam, I have usually been the one who defends Westbrook with you when everyone bashes him. I love him and appreciate him more than most.

Westbrook is not very good at pick and roll passes while harden is very good at them. That is one of the main reasons Durant is averaging more assists. He is the new harden for the second unit. He goes out with 2 min left in the first and comes back in at the start of the 2nd to run the second unit because westbrook couldn't get martin involved at all.

Becks2307
01-03-2013, 09:01 PM
What if maynor never got injured

is this team better

Maynor
Harden
Durant
Ibaka
Perkins?

poleandreel
01-03-2013, 09:02 PM
What if maynor never got injured

is this team better

Maynor
Harden
Durant
Ibaka
Perkins?

Maynor was never really good. Reggie Jackson was always better but Brooks refused to play him...just like he use to do with Ibaka.

b@llhog24
01-03-2013, 09:07 PM
I don't think I agree with the bolded two.

+1.

Also depends on the package.

ManRam
01-03-2013, 09:08 PM
ManRam, I have usually been the one who defends Westbrook with you when everyone bashes him. I love him and appreciate him more than most.

Westbrook is not very good at pick and roll passes while harden is very good at them. That is one of the main reasons Durant is averaging more assists. He is the new harden for the second unit. He goes out with 2 min left in the first and comes back in at the start of the 2nd to run the second unit because westbrook couldn't get martin involved at all.

He's having a down year, and I LOVE Harden almost equally as much as RWB (I guess it's KD who brings out my ire).

I'm not gonna sit here and say that the team is better with RWB instead of Harden, because I don't know.

I do know that this offense is the best in the league as is. I think Russy's passing is a bit underrated. Last year he had a down year, and a lot of that was Harden, but if Harden replaces Russy at the point, you aren't going to see the same assist numbers as Russell has this year. Is that going to hinder the offense? Again, I don't know. Harden is a tremendous passing SG - maybe the best in the league - but he's not going to be an elite passing PG. Remember, Russy is top 5 in both APG and AST%. He's been a good passer...a great one even.

Harden is a bit more similar to KD than Russell is. While Russell hasn't been nearly as efficient, I think their contrasting styles really do help at times.

I think on most team I would rather have Harden than RWB...but it's really close and it depends on the current roster. On OKC, well, I'm just on the fence.

tripleplay2007
01-03-2013, 09:09 PM
Maynor was never really good. Reggie Jackson was always better but Brooks refused to play him...just like he use to do with Ibaka.

Reggie Jackson sucks, this is coming from someone who watches the Thunder pretty much every game. Maynor is worse but there's a reason neither get many minutes. We really need to get a back up PG before the deadline.

poleandreel
01-03-2013, 09:12 PM
Reggie Jackson sucks, this is coming from someone who watches the Thunder pretty much every game. Maynor is worse but there's a reason neither get many minutes. We really need to get a back up PG before the deadline.

I 100% agree. But I was just saying that playing Maynor over Jackson was a mistake. They are both bad. I would LOVE to get Calderon.

Jarvo
01-03-2013, 09:41 PM
OKC will be better if they had traded Westbrook for Rondo & kept Harden.

Bruno
01-03-2013, 09:43 PM
i think they would have been.

(Of course assuming that they got back an equally good package for Westbrook as they did for Harden).

I think they could have gotten just as good a package, if not a better package. Westbrook had higher trade value at the time of the trade (by my estimation).

OKC looks great, and Westbrook has been good (not great). Those two points are however irrelevant to the question at hand.

sagemania
01-04-2013, 04:04 AM
Harden is the far more diverse offensive player, but who runs the point without Westbrook? Westbrook was more important to the structure of the team.

obie
01-04-2013, 04:47 AM
they should have traded westbrook for a true PG

tapajafri
01-04-2013, 05:06 AM
Nah

tapajafri
01-04-2013, 05:07 AM
Harden is a more polished offensive player, but like someone pointed out, there's nobody else to run the point if Westbrook is gone. HOWEVER, Harden was/is replaceable by an underrated player named Kevin Martin, who's finally getting the recognition he deserves.

Martin isn't as good as Harden, but he's playing very good basketball and he's a very good player. There wouldn't be a PG to replace Westbrook, but Martin is replacing Harden right now.

Lord Leoshes
01-04-2013, 06:14 AM
OKC will be better if they had traded Westbrook for Rondo & kept Harden.

Agree. That would have been their best scenario.

PhillyFaninLA
01-04-2013, 07:34 AM
You don't win titles with me first guys like Westbrook.

There is a reason Amare, Melo, Barry Bonds, Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson (as a Sixers fan I loved this guy but he does fit on this list) etc... Don't have title. That are distraction, offense first, me first, narcissist that put on a nice show but don't make others around them better and that is a key ingredient to a title.

Harden would be much better for OKC then Westbrook....maybe he'll make me eat crow but I doubt they can win a title with Westbrook on the roster no matter how impressive he is.

fredv
01-04-2013, 08:40 AM
Imagine swapping Westbrook for Rondo and keeping Harden :O That would have been a thing of beauty.

Swashcuff
01-04-2013, 09:27 AM
You don't win titles with me first guys like Westbrook.

There is a reason Amare, Melo, Barry Bonds, Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson (as a Sixers fan I loved this guy but he does fit on this list) etc... Don't have title. That are distraction, offense first, me first, narcissist that put on a nice show but don't make others around them better and that is a key ingredient to a title.

Harden would be much better for OKC then Westbrook....maybe he'll make me eat crow but I doubt they can win a title with Westbrook on the roster no matter how impressive he is.

Nash, Stockton, KJ etc the ultimate non Me-First guys and they don't any titles while Kobe, Wilt, Barry etc were/are seen at different points of their careers as me-first guys and they do. This example is extremely poor in team sports. IMO that statement is completely ignorant of the truth. The truth that is without a solid supporting cast and good coaching you're not going to win a title.

How many championship positions have Melo been in in his career. This is his best team to date and even so it really isn't what one would consider a championship calibre supporting cast. We need to apply context to these statements.

Lindystud36
01-04-2013, 09:31 AM
You don't win titles with me first guys like Westbrook.

There is a reason Amare, Melo, Barry Bonds, Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson (as a Sixers fan I loved this guy but he does fit on this list) etc... Don't have title. That are distraction, offense first, me first, narcissist that put on a nice show but don't make others around them better and that is a key ingredient to a title.

Harden would be much better for OKC then Westbrook....maybe he'll make me eat crow but I doubt they can win a title with Westbrook on the roster no matter how impressive he is.

Baseball is not a sport dependent on one Player
TO worked his ***** off to come back and leave his heart on the field during that superbowl
AI brought teams that shouldnt have been in the playoffs into championship contention
Melo has won Olympic Gold, College Gold, and is playing as a team player

OKC was 3 games away from winning gold with Westy; and that kid has shown more heart than most. Yes Rondo is a "Pure" point guard but since when has Pure won anything? Lebron Plays multiple positions, same as Magic, and when the Lakers need a bucket how many times has he played PG, SG, PF, in one possession?

Teams win titles with structure from the top down. Fans act like Tom Brady was great on his own, that Belichek and Kraft had nothing to do with it.
Derek Jeter sucked his first year in the Yankee Organization, they wanted to trade him and a guy named Mariano Rivera for a no name short stop on the Mariners...

So stop hating on a player, dont say players lose championships because its guys like AI, Melo, JR Smith, Kobe, chuckers who always shoot, who end up taking that last shot and dont care if they miss it because they know they put their blood sweat and tears into it.

When you hate on a guy saying they are selfish you hate on their coaches, their work ethic, their passion, desires, and love.

Never met a bad person with those qualities; coachability, passion, love, desire, dreams, ethic's

Swashcuff
01-04-2013, 09:47 AM
-Having watched every Thunder game for the past 5 years, it is clear that Harden is also a better passer than Westbrook. That being said, he could definitely play the PG role on this team.

This season Westbrook has a passing rating of 16.0 (absolutely elite) while Harden's at 7.2 (different roles but hear my point). Westbrook has 48 passing turnovers on 248 assists that's good for a 5.1 assists for every bad pass he makes. Harden 45 passing turnovers on 148 assists, 3.2 assists for every bad pass. Now the Rockets play at the highest pace in the NBA so it is likely that that can hurt Harden or maybe even help this is uncertain but thus far this season in terms efficiency of assists Westy is undoubtedly better. Now that doesn't make him a better passer than Harden but I just thought it was something worth sharing.

Admittedly I haven't watched as many Thunder games as you do and I do think that James Harden is a player who has a better feel for an offense but from my eye test I really don't see him being a better passer or running a better point than Westbrook. I think Westbrook has better vision than Harden does and as a result does a better job of finding teammates in good positions to score. Thing is with Westy because of his erratic out of control style of play he gives the impression that he isn't a good scorer and nor is he a very good passer but I think even you can agree that he is.


Imagine swapping Westbrook for Rondo and keeping Harden :O That would have been a thing of beauty.

Before Serge started displaying the offensive ability (mainly on his jumper (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2013&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=JUMP_SHOT&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=Y&q2=Y&q3=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=12&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=&margin_max=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg)) it would have been unwise to put Rondo on a team that relied so heavily on 3 players for offense even if one of them was the best scorer in the world.

Because of Rondo's inept scoring ability he really hasn't been known as one who runs an efficient offense. I don't think at the time it would have been a smart move. In hindsight now seeing that Harden has become such a good volume scorer and Ibaka improving greatly in that regard that move looks like it would have been fruitful, at the time though just didn't make much sense. Also trading Durant's closest friend for a locker room cancer like Rajon Rondo may not have been the smartest thing to do when you take chemistry into consideration.

SanAntonioSpurs23
01-04-2013, 09:53 AM
This question shouldn't even have to be asked. Westbrick is over rated as hell.

nycericanguy
01-04-2013, 10:21 AM
Imagine swapping Westbrook for Rondo and keeping Harden :O That would have been a thing of beauty.

LMAO... I was just about to post the same thing.

OKC would have saved money in a WB for Rondo swap, and Harden was going to be cheaper than WB anyway.'

they were prepared to pay westbrook and Harden around $28m per total, they could have had Harden & Rondo for around $25m total.

b@llhog24
01-04-2013, 10:32 AM
You don't win titles with me first guys like Westbrook.

There is a reason Amare, Melo, Barry Bonds, Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson (as a Sixers fan I loved this guy but he does fit on this list) etc... Don't have title. That are distraction, offense first, me first, narcissist that put on a nice show but don't make others around them better and that is a key ingredient to a title.

Harden would be much better for OKC then Westbrook....maybe he'll make me eat crow but I doubt they can win a title with Westbrook on the roster no matter how impressive he is.

Kobe slaps this argument right in the face. Doesn't get more "me first" than that.

PhillyFaninLA
01-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Kobe slaps this argument right in the face. Doesn't get more "me first" than that.


Kobe is the only exception to my statement and your post is the only one I put any stock in as a credible point.

Unlike the guys I mentioned Kobe is about heart, hard work, and winning above all else. I hate Kobe and think the planet is worse for him being born, but unlike the guys I mentioned Kobe has a warriors heart and soul.

Nihenben
01-04-2013, 12:35 PM
OKC will be better if they had traded Westbrook for Rondo & kept Harden.

No **** they would be better off. Rondo is a better player both ways and is owed 25 million dollars less (5 years / 55 million contract compared to a 5 / 80 million for Westbrook). But why would Boston make this trade......

Becks2307
01-04-2013, 12:44 PM
What if u kept Harden and traded Westbrook for Rondo?

Rondo
Harden
Durant

EDIT - Someone already posted this lol

mynameismo
01-04-2013, 01:30 PM
What if u kept Harden and traded Westbrook for Rondo?

Rondo
Harden
Durant

EDIT - Someone already posted this lol

I would hate to trade Rondo. But Damn!! Those 3 together would be fun to watch!

AWC713
01-04-2013, 01:44 PM
i think they should have traded westbrook instead of harden. as a rockets fan, im glad they did what they did.

however, harden is a much more team-oriented player. i think he wouldve played alongside durant better than westbrook.

plus, it does seem as though harden and durant were better friends than westbrook and durant.

Chronz
01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
Im guessing they would suffer in transition (maybe?) but their halfcourt execution would be better I think. Harden is arguably as good of a passer/distributor but much more efficient individually. Defensively it wouldn't be a long term solution. You would have to hide him on the weakest perimeter threat but with Thabo/Durant around it wouldn't be too bad. Still they arent a great defensive team so depending on what you think of Westbrooks defensive value, its either a big or neutral loss.