PDA

View Full Version : James Harden...



fredv
01-03-2013, 10:53 AM
...is a BEAST!

10 straight games with 25+ points !

thenaj17
01-03-2013, 11:33 AM
Woopdy doo...Kobe's had 10 streak of over 30 (would be 12 now if he didn't sit the entire 4th vs Portland)

Durant and LeBron could easily have that streak over 35ppg if they had Harden's supporting cast

YoungOne
01-03-2013, 11:34 AM
thats why I drafted him :)

nacdaddy
01-03-2013, 11:35 AM
beast he is. hes been efficiently scoring and leading this team to victories time after time. he closes in the fourth and gets to free throw line over and over again. i remember a bunch of people saying that he was overrated and not worth a max. i wonder where those people are now?

nacdaddy
01-03-2013, 11:39 AM
the most doubted and questioned gm in the game this past offseason for the signings of lin, asik, and trading for harden is looking pretty damn smart right about now. i love it. not saying i never doubted morey cause i did with the whole dwight ordeal. but man am i glad that we got the beast that is harden.

InRoseWeTrust
01-03-2013, 11:44 AM
Woopdy doo...Kobe's had 10 streak of over 30 (would be 12 now if he didn't sit the entire 4th vs Portland)

Durant and LeBron could easily have that streak over 35ppg if they had Harden's supporting cast

Are you seriously saying Harden has a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh? Really?

sep11ie
01-03-2013, 11:53 AM
Are you seriously saying Harden has a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh? Really?

Huh?:confused:

I Rock Shaqs
01-03-2013, 12:00 PM
Are you seriously saying Harden has a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh? Really?

Either you're trolling or you just aren't very smart lol.

InRoseWeTrust
01-03-2013, 12:15 PM
Either you're trolling or you just aren't very smart lol.

I get what he's saying now. It was like 6 in the morning and I didn't give it enough thought. Hence my confusion at anyone trying to make that claim.

ManRam
01-03-2013, 12:16 PM
Either you're trolling or you just aren't very smart lol.

If he idolizes Derrick Rose, he's probably striving not to be very smart ;)


Harden is a beast. I'm really happy he's doing well. Been rooting for him hard all year...there were A LOT of skeptics. He looks like an absolutely legit #1 option.

macc
01-03-2013, 12:35 PM
If he idolizes Derrick Rose, he's probably striving not to be very smart ;)


Harden is a beast. I'm really happy he's doing well. Been rooting for him hard all year...there were A LOT of skeptics. He looks like an absolutely legit #1 option.



Haha you know I've been biting my tongue lately on this one. I saw this waaay back in OKC, you can just tell if somone has game or not.

Let's see if Rap shows up in this thread with his quote from me.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 12:36 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 12:36 PM
Haha you know I've been biting my tongue lately on this one. I saw this waaay back in OKC, you can just tell if somone has game or not.

Let's see if Rap shows up in this thread with his quote from me.

Right on cue. And I still stand by everything I said, and your quoted post is still ********

SouthSideRookie
01-03-2013, 12:39 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

:facepalm:

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 12:44 PM
:facepalm:

Lol...they can't be SA/OKC/Por...you know, the good teams in the West. They split with a ridiculously weird Lakers team and they are constantly beating the Wolves/NO the bad teams, and are splitting with the mediocre teams Utah/Memphis...So yea, the facepalm was not warranted

Baller1
01-03-2013, 12:47 PM
So happy to see Houston doing well. I really hope they can make some noise in the playoffs and Harden can makeup for his horrid Finals performance.

FOBolous
01-03-2013, 12:50 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

the rockets blew out...not just beat but blew out...Memphis, Chicago, New York (twice), Boston, Minnesota, AND Atlanta. I didn't know those teams were "bad" teams. they also only lost to Miami by 3 pts.

fredv
01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

Typical example of someone speaking out of his *****.

Screamin' A. Smith is that you?

macc
01-03-2013, 12:55 PM
Right on cue. And I still stand by everything I said, and your quoted post is still ********



Rap you're an idiot on this topic. At this point you're just to stubborn to admit you're wrong.

You made it sound before that Harden wasn't even in the same league as Rose, I stated let's see what he does as a #1 option because I have two eyes and I can clearly see Harden could ball back when he was in OKC, you were to ignorant to realize this. Esp when you say things like "he's not a #1 option scorer." You would also say things that he wouldn't be able to hack it as a #1 scoring option because then he would be facing alot more double teams and just wouldn't be able to get the job done. :facepalm:

Now that Harden is #5 in the league in scoring and shooting a decent fg% (just under 47%). While at the same time putting up 4.3 rpg - 5.3 apg - 1.8 spg, that shows me he's not only scoring but he's doing it all on the court while getting to the free throw line with ease. Plus the guy is only 23 years old!

So now you say things like "he's putting up big numbers on a bad team" when you're argument before was "he won't put up big numbers on a bad team because he'll draw all those doubleteams." So which is it?

Bottom line you don't know what you're talking about. Keep hating on the guy and making yourself look that much more ignorant.

FOBolous
01-03-2013, 12:55 PM
Lol...they can't be SA/OKC/Por...you know, the good teams in the West. They split with a ridiculously weird Lakers team and they are constantly beating the Wolves/NO the bad teams, and are splitting with the mediocre teams Utah/Memphis...So yea, the facepalm was not warranted

dude...Memphis is a good team. they have the league's best defense and was the #1 team in the west for awhile. they're currently #4 but theyre still a .600 team. and I don't know if yoi know but not many teams cam beat SA and OKC. there's a reason why they're currently .700 teams

macc
01-03-2013, 12:55 PM
Typical example of someone speaking out of his *****.

Screamin' A. Smith is that you?




:clap:

ManRam
01-03-2013, 12:57 PM
Lol...they can't be SA/OKC/Por...you know, the good teams in the West. They split with a ridiculously weird Lakers team and they are constantly beating the Wolves/NO the bad teams, and are splitting with the mediocre teams Utah/Memphis...So yea, the facepalm was not warranted

But they're not an elite team, so why should we expect or demand them to beat those elite teams (Portland withstanding)? It's not like they haven't beaten any good teams either. They've beaten New York and Atlanta all 4 times, and those are 2 of the top 3 teams in the East right now, among others.

I don't think many people expected the Rockets to be 4 games over .500 right now. A lot of other guys (like Patterson, Parsons and Smith especially) really have exceeded expectations, so it's not just Harden leading them to this success, but this wasn't a roster people felt had much talent on it.

He's gotta cut down on the turnovers, and we'll see how these huge minutes really impact him down the road, but he's really had a great season and is a huge reason why the team is indeed exceeding expectations. Their defense often gives up a ton of points, so his scoring is invaluable.

The big question was how his efficiency would be impacted. As expected, he's still getting to the line a ton (leads the league), so that's helping him keep those efficiency numbers up. His TS% last year was obviously unsustainable, but he's at .600 this year, which is good for 13th best in the league (trailing only KD and LeBron in terms of top flight scorers). He REALLY struggled from 3 early on, but is climbing back to his career averages. As that continues to stabilize his TS% and eFG% should continue to grow.

It's still too young in his career to know for sure what he can and cannot do in terms of being a #1 option, but there still is nothing to suggest that he can't do it. He's having a really good year in a completely different situation. You'd think he'd only get better now.

KnickaBocka.44
01-03-2013, 01:01 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

They are 8-10 against teams .500 or better. While it may be a losing record, they are definitely holding their own; 3 of the losses came in overtime, 5 of them are to the Spurs or Thunder, and they have already swept the season series with 3 of the top 5 Eastern Conference teams this year (Knicks, Hawks, Bulls).


Who would be an example of someone you could put him with that would take them to that level (other than KD or Westy, since we have already partially seen the result of that)?

KniCks4LiFe
01-03-2013, 01:02 PM
the rockets blew out Memphis, Chicago, New York (twice), Boston, Minnesota, AND Atlanta. I didn't know those teams were "bad" teams. they also only lost to Miami by 3 pts.

Roxs also played OKC and SA off back to backs. With their style of play and the fact they are the youngest starting unit in the NBA, least experienced starters in the NBA we can't take those game to serious.

They blew out NY w/ Melo, they blew out NY w/o Melo in MSG, went to Chicago blew them out on x-mas, blew out Boston (but IDK if that's a feat) beat a hot Minny team at home, not an easy feat, beat the #7 defense in the league twice in the Atlanta Hawks, and the time they beat Memphis, Memphis is one of the top teams in the league. The Miami loss was when Lin was struggling, they were one 3pt shot away from getting the victory.

Baller1
01-03-2013, 01:07 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

lol

Htownballa1622
01-03-2013, 01:11 PM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

Notice everyone commenting on this misguided post.

Fyi. You're off.

KniCks4LiFe
01-03-2013, 01:12 PM
Notice everyone commenting on this misguided post.

Fyi. You're off.

it was New Years 2 days ago.

Htownballa1622
01-03-2013, 01:16 PM
it was New Years 2 days ago.

?

KniCks4LiFe
01-03-2013, 01:20 PM
?

:cheers::drunk:

InRoseWeTrust
01-03-2013, 01:22 PM
If he idolizes Derrick Rose, he's probably striving not to be very smart ;)


Harden is a beast. I'm really happy he's doing well. Been rooting for him hard all year...there were A LOT of skeptics. He looks like an absolutely legit #1 option.

Yes, I misread someone's assertion at 6am so I must be striving for stupidity. And somehow being a Bulls/Rose fan is indicative of that as well. This forum is ridiculous.

Htownballa1622
01-03-2013, 01:22 PM
:cheers::drunk:

Ah. I'm late ha.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:27 PM
So let me get this straight...they are playing the exact same kind of basketball as they were last year with better players this year and a "true" number 1 player in all of your eyes and still hovering around .500? Really? Harden is scoring a lot of points, cool. He's not leading them to wins though. Houston just missed out on the playoffs last year while having no true player to go to, no defensive big man like Asik, and Parson's is playing some damn good basketball this year, as is Patrick Paterson...and the Rockets are 4 games over .500

Last year through 32 games, the Rockets were 18-14 playing a LOT of back to back games in a shortened season with a lot less talented team. If Harden is a true number 1 player and is God's gift to basketball as a lot of you guys are saying...then why are they only 4 games above .500? Why are they losing to teams like Portland, Utah, Toronto? They went on a very good stretch playing some very good basketball against tough teams, I'll give them that, but when they played an elite team, when Harden should play his best ball, he was terribly inefficient and a turnover machine.

tredigs
01-03-2013, 01:27 PM
Harden over the last month: 29/5/5 (47% field, 88% line)

Not only is he a solid #1 option, he's an elite #1 option.

tredigs
01-03-2013, 01:30 PM
So let me get this straight...they are playing the exact same kind of basketball as they were last year with better players this year and a "true" number 1 player in all of your eyes and still hovering around .500? Really? Harden is scoring a lot of points, cool. He's not leading them to wins though. Houston just missed out on the playoffs last year while having no true player to go to, no defensive big man like Asik, and Parson's is playing some damn good basketball this year, as is Patrick Paterson...and the Rockets are 4 games over .500

Last year through 32 games, the Rockets were 18-14 playing a LOT of back to back games in a shortened season with a lot less talented team. If Harden is a true number 1 player and is God's gift to basketball as a lot of you guys are saying...then why are they only 4 games above .500? Why are they losing to teams like Portland, Utah, Toronto? They went on a very good stretch playing some very good basketball against tough teams, I'll give them that, but when they played an elite team, when Harden should play his best ball, he was terribly inefficient and a turnover machine.

For them to be doing what they're doing with such a fresh roster/new roles in a very tough western conference is damn impressive. Everyone else was playing back to backs in a shortened season last year too sport.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:34 PM
For them to be doing what they're doing with such a fresh roster/new roles in a very tough western conference is damn impressive. Everyone else was playing back to backs in a shortened season last year too sport.

I'm aware of that, sport. Harden will not lead this team out of the first round of the playoffs. Harden will never lead this team to a championship as the best player on it. Harden is a very good player. I really enjoy watching him play. But he just isn't going to do what number 1 players do. Lead a team to a top 2 seed, def. won't happen this year, and doubt it will in the next couple years...and everyones going to have excuses which they should have none, because he is an Elite number 1 option..those types lead teams to top seeds.

KniCks4LiFe
01-03-2013, 01:35 PM
So let me get this straight...they are playing the exact same kind of basketball as they were last year with better players this year and a "true" number 1 player in all of your eyes and still hovering around .500? Really? Harden is scoring a lot of points, cool. He's not leading them to wins though. Houston just missed out on the playoffs last year while having no true player to go to, no defensive big man like Asik, and Parson's is playing some damn good basketball this year, as is Patrick Paterson...and the Rockets are 4 games over .500

Last year through 32 games, the Rockets were 18-14 playing a LOT of back to back games in a shortened season with a lot less talented team. If Harden is a true number 1 player and is God's gift to basketball as a lot of you guys are saying...then why are they only 4 games above .500? Why are they losing to teams like Portland, Utah, Toronto? They went on a very good stretch playing some very good basketball against tough teams, I'll give them that, but when they played an elite team, when Harden should play his best ball, he was terribly inefficient and a turnover machine.

B/c they are learning a new offense w/ less experienced players.

McHale even said that half these kids haven't gotten into reading scouting reports and executing it on the court. Some times they would lapse and leave legit shooters open w/o attempting to close out and then read "oh that guy is a hot 3 pt. shooter" they are adjusting and beating teams ***** left and right in the process. The Spurs were up in 3 instances by 17-21 pts on them and 2 out of the 3 times the Roxs tied them. It's not just that they are good, it's that they are also young and inexperienced. They still have one of the most dangerous dynamic backcourts in the NBA, and are the league's top scoring team in the NBA. They haven't even fully learned which spot everyone likes the ball. But Lin and Harden are doing alot of that, while Parsons, Delfino and the rest follow.

tredigs
01-03-2013, 01:39 PM
I'm aware of that, sport. Harden will not lead this team out of the first round of the playoffs. Harden will never lead this team to a championship as the best player on it. Harden is a very good player. I really enjoy watching him play. But he just isn't going to do what number 1 players do. Lead a team to a top 2 seed, def. won't happen this year, and doubt it will in the next couple years...and everyones going to have excuses which they should have none, because he is an Elite number 1 option..those types lead teams to top seeds.

When you say #1 option, we'er specifically talking about scoring, correct? What about James Harden's game lends you to think he couldn't be the best scorer on a contending team? The Rockets are not stacked by any means in comparison to the elite of the West, but they have a great/young budding superstar as a #1 scoring option.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:39 PM
B/c they are learning a new offense w/ less experienced players.

McHale even said that half these kids haven't gotten into reading scouting reports and executing it on the court. Some times they would lapse and leave legit shooters open w/o attempting to close out and then read "oh that guy is a hot 3 pt. shooter" they are adjusting and beating teams ***** left and right in the process. The Spurs were up in 3 instances by 17-21 pts on them and 2 out of the 3 times the Roxs tied them. It's not just that they are good, it's that they are also young and inexperienced. They still have one of the most dangerous dynamic backcourts in the NBA, and are the league's top scoring team in the NBA. They haven't even fully learned which spot everyone likes the ball. But Lin and Harden are doing alot of that, while Parsons, Delfino and the rest follow.

Ok, then this conversation can't happen I suppose. Always going to have the excuse for the Rockets. Lets have the discussion when they are fighting to make the playoffs at years end

FOBolous
01-03-2013, 01:39 PM
So let me get this straight...they are playing the exact same kind of basketball as they were last year with better players this year and a "true" number 1 player in all of your eyes and still hovering around .500? Really? Harden is scoring a lot of points, cool. He's not leading them to wins though. Houston just missed out on the playoffs last year while having no true player to go to, no defensive big man like Asik, and Parson's is playing some damn good basketball this year, as is Patrick Paterson...and the Rockets are 4 games over .500

Last year through 32 games, the Rockets were 18-14 playing a LOT of back to back games in a shortened season with a lot less talented team. If Harden is a true number 1 player and is God's gift to basketball as a lot of you guys are saying...then why are they only 4 games above .500? Why are they losing to teams like Portland, Utah, Toronto? They went on a very good stretch playing some very good basketball against tough teams, I'll give them that, but when they played an elite team, when Harden should play his best ball, he was terribly inefficient and a turnover machine.

1. again with Harden not leading the Rockets to wins? first of all, the Rockets have a winning record. i don't know how that that's not "leading the Rockets to wins." and of all the wins the rockets got, the rockets blew out...not just beat but blew out...Memphis, Chicago, New York (twice), Boston, Minnesota, AND Atlanta. I didn't know those teams were "bad" teams. they also only lost to Miami by 3 pts.

2. and the Rockets DO NOT have the same team as last year. they have a WORSE TEAM. Last year, the Rockets had BOTH Lowry and Gorgic, Courtney Lee, Marcus Camby, and Luis Scola. this year, besides Harden (who btw, was an unprove starter), EVERY player on the Rockets are either unproven bench players or rookies. the rockets, with their current roster, was expected to be a lottery team at the beginning of the reason. the Rockets are currently EXCEEDING expectations right now. and who's leading the team?

3. also, ever team loses to bad teams once in awhile. OKC lost to Brooklyn last night. Your favorite team, Chicago, lost to Philly, Brooklyn, Orlando, Portland, and Washington. San Antonio lost to Utah. Miami lost to Detroit and Washington. and New York lost to Dallas, Brooklyn, Sacrmento, and Portland.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:41 PM
When you say #1 option, we'er specifically talking about scoring, correct? What about James Harden's game lends you to think he couldn't be the best scorer on a contending team? The Rockets are not stacked by any means in comparison to the elite of the West, but they have a great/young budding superstar as a #1 scoring option.

No, not just scoring. There is more to basketball than scoring. Seriously, come on. Harden can't be the best player on a contending team. Period

FOBolous
01-03-2013, 01:42 PM
No, not just scoring. There is more to basketball than scoring. Seriously, come on. Harden can't be the best player on a contending team. Period

you saying that over and over again does not make it true. you need to justify it. and so far you haven't.

KniCks4LiFe
01-03-2013, 01:43 PM
Ok, then this conversation can't happen I suppose. Always going to have the excuse for the Rockets. Lets have the discussion when they are fighting to make the playoffs at years end

Exactly. You can't ignore the starting 5 of the Roxs, other than Parsons. They weren't starters last yr. Lin has under a season of starting experience. Not even that. Harden, this is his first season as a starter.

ManRam
01-03-2013, 01:44 PM
Why are they losing to teams like Portland, Utah, Toronto?

I don't get this argument...especially if used purely to discredit Harden.

Why have the Heat recently lost to Detroit and Milwaukee, and needed OT to beat Orlando and Dallas? Is it because LeBron James isn't a true #1 option?

I mean, that's not how you make an argument against an INDIVIDUAL player. You're also completely ignoring the fact that he doesn't indeed have stellar talent around him. Parsons, Lin, Asik and Patterson are the 4 best players he plays with. The Asik and Lin contracts were BLASTED this off season. No one thought they were capable of being the 2nd/3rd most important players on a successful team. Parsons logs the second most minutes on the team...what does that say? Patterson has been solid, but has missed a lot of time now and there were "bust" murmurs floating around last year.

Even so, your fascination with Houston's team success, and completely ignoring Harden's INDIVIDUAL play is a bit telling. Perhaps because if you do indeed look at his individual play, there isn't much of a debate anymore.


These aren't EXCUSES...they're facts. You can't pretend every player plays with equal talent. The reality is this is a team that is basically full of 2011-2012 bench players, and now is 4 games over .500 in the West. Demanding that Harden leads this team to victories against some of the best teams in the league is silly. Using his losses against OKC/SAS to prove he isn't a great player is even more so.

Swashcuff
01-03-2013, 01:45 PM
WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTTT!!! STOP EVERYTHING!!!!

James Harden isn't a legit #1 because his TEAM loses Portland, Toronto and Utah? Are we seriously talking about Harden or the bastard child of Mike James and Brian Scalabrine.

:laugh2:

I thought this was a basketball forum not a tennis forum I guess I was wrong.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:46 PM
1. again with Harden not leading the Rockets to wins? first of all, the Rockets have a winning record. i don't know how that that's not "leading the Rockets to wins." and of all the wins the rockets got, the rockets blew out...not just beat but blew out...Memphis, Chicago, New York (twice), Boston, Minnesota, AND Atlanta. I didn't know those teams were "bad" teams. they also only lost to Miami by 3 pts.

2. and the Rockets DO NOT have the same team as last year. they have a WORSE TEAM. Last year, the Rockets had BOTH Lowry and Gorgic, Courtney Lee, Marcus Camby, and Luis Scola. this year, besides Harden (who btw, was an unprove starter), EVERY player on the Rockets are either unproven bench players or rookies. the rockets, with their current roster, was expected to be a lottery team at the beginning of the reason. the Rockets are currently EXCEEDING expectations right now. and who's leading the team?

3. also, ever team loses to bad teams once in awhile. OKC lost to Brooklyn last night. Your favorite team, Chicago, lost to Philly, Brooklyn, Orlando, Portland, and Washington. San Antonio lost to Utah. Miami lost to Detroit and Washington. and New York lost to Dallas, Brooklyn, Sacrmento, and Portland.

That is complete horse ****. Asik and Lin (while I thought he sucked others thought he was good) with Harden, people thought this was going to be a lottery team? Parson's showed PLENTY of promise last year, Paterson has been a pleasant surprise, but was a decent role player and topping all that in with bringing in the God known as James Harden? How in the hell were they considered a lottery team? :confused:

I am not a Bulls fan. Just saying Macc was stupid to say he'd want Harden over Rose...that's just asinine.

tredigs
01-03-2013, 01:48 PM
No, not just scoring. There is more to basketball than scoring. Seriously, come on. Harden can't be the best player on a contending team. Period

Well, he arguably could already, but the team would have to be stacked in the right way of course.

Just realize that being the "#1 option" and best player on a contender aren't necessarily one and the same. That said, Harden's a solid facilitator and still growing defensively. He'll likely get there.

You also realize the Rockets got rid of their top 3 players from last year, right Rap? This is a fresh team, and a very young team. For them to even be in the playoff picture out West is impressive. That's more than the likes of Kobe and the Lakers can say.

macc
01-03-2013, 01:48 PM
Trust me it won't work, you can throw all knowledge at Rap and it won't work. Him and I have been debating Harden since last year, now that he sees i'm right he's just to stubborn to admit it.

This all started when I told him that I thought he could be a #1 option in this league, he completely disgreed and used arguments that Durrant and Rose made Harden look better then he was and if Harden was ever the #1 option for a team that he would fold because he would have to take on more double teams and simply wouldn't be able to handle it all.

Obviously that was wrong but you won't get Rap to admit that. He's stubborn like a child when it comes to Harden. Maybe Harden didn't sign a poster for him at a game or something because he def has a hard on for Harden.

BenFrank
01-03-2013, 01:49 PM
Laughing @ the guy who expects Harden to take the youngest team in the nba, with the least experience to the #1 seed in the West, smh.. I have seen it all

RLundi
01-03-2013, 01:52 PM
No, not just scoring. There is more to basketball than scoring. Seriously, come on. Harden can't be the best player on a contending team. Period

He's in the top 15 in all the meaningful categories you'd expect from a number 1 player:

8th in PER- 23.4
5th in scoring- 26.3
13th in TS%- .600
6th in win shares- 5.1

I don't think there's any doubt about it: Harden is an elite player.

Longhornfan1234
01-03-2013, 01:52 PM
Are you seriously saying Harden has a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh? Really?

Your reading reading comprehension. :facepalm:

sep11ie
01-03-2013, 01:54 PM
Your reading reading comprehension. :facepalm:

Kettle, meet pot...

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:54 PM
I don't get this argument...especially if used purely to discredit Harden.

Why have the Heat recently lost to Detroit and Milwaukee, and needed OT to beat Orlando and Dallas? Is it because LeBron James isn't a true #1 option?

I mean, that's not how you make an argument against an INDIVIDUAL player. You're also completely ignoring the fact that he doesn't indeed have stellar talent around him. Parsons, Lin, Asik and Patterson are the 4 best players he plays with. The Asik and Lin contracts were BLASTED this off season. No one thought they were capable of being the 2nd/3rd most important players on a successful team. Parsons logs the second most minutes on the team...what does that say? Patterson has been solid, but has missed a lot of time now and there were "bust" murmurs floating around last year.

Even so, your fascination with Houston's team success, and completely ignoring Harden's INDIVIDUAL play is a bit telling. Perhaps because if you do indeed look at his individual play, there isn't much of a debate anymore.


These aren't EXCUSES...they're facts. You can't pretend every player plays with equal talent. The reality is this is a team that is basically full of 2011-2012 bench players, and now is 4 games over .500 in the West. Demanding that Harden leads this team to victories against some of the best teams in the league is silly. Using his losses against OKC/SAS to prove he isn't a great player is even more so.

If everyone is all about a players scoring numbers and making him out to be a true number 1 instead of leading a team to a good record then I guess I lose. Harden can score with the best of them, he gets bailed out a lot by his ******** amount of free throws, but he can score with the best of them.

I guess I go off a true number leads a team hard into the playoffs, which I still think it's too early for it because hey, they can only lose 10 more games for all I know...

I've never considered Melo a true number 1 until this year. He's always been able to score, but this year he's leading as well. Kobe/Dwight (in Orlando)/Wade/James/Rose/Roy(when healthy)/Dirk among a few others are number 1 caliber players.

To me James Harden is to Houston as to what Bosh was to Toronto. He will lead them into the playoffs but be beaten out the first round. Harden, with this team as is or getting more role players, will never be a top 1-2 team in the conference. And if Harden is an Elite number 1 option, he'd be able to lead them to that. That's just how I see it

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:58 PM
Well, he arguably could already, but the team would have to be stacked in the right way of course.

Just realize that being the "#1 option" and best player on a contender aren't necessarily one and the same. That said, Harden's a solid facilitator and still growing defensively. He'll likely get there.

You also realize the Rockets got rid of their top 3 players from last year, right Rap? This is a fresh team, and a very young team. For them to even be in the playoff picture out West is impressive. That's more than the likes of Kobe and the Lakers can say.

They got rid of their top 3 players, cool. None of them were number 1 options like Harden supposedly is.

I honestly think the Lakers will pull it together and make the playoffs. I also think the Jazz and Mavericks will turn it around as well. Houston has a tough couple months coming up. If Harden can keep them afloat, then I'll eat my words. I'll make a thread eating my words. But if he's just putting up a lot of points and losing, I really couldn't care less

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 01:59 PM
Laughing @ the guy who expects Harden to take the youngest team in the nba, with the least experience to the #1 seed in the West, smh.. I have seen it all

Not this year. But I don't see Harden ever doing it

ILLUSIONIST^248
01-03-2013, 02:00 PM
Are you seriously saying Harden has a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh? Really?

No, just the opposite .

ManRam
01-03-2013, 02:00 PM
That is complete horse ****. Asik and Lin (while I thought he sucked others thought he was good) with Harden, people thought this was going to be a lottery team? Parson's showed PLENTY of promise last year, Paterson has been a pleasant surprise, but was a decent role player and topping all that in with bringing in the God known as James Harden? How in the hell were they considered a lottery team? :confused:

I am not a Bulls fan. Just saying Macc was stupid to say he'd want Harden over Rose...that's just asinine.

I do agree that it was premature to say that Harden is a better building block than Rose, but it doesn't mean that Harden can't become the better player.

As for pre-season expectations:

ESPN had them 22nd to start the season (http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings/_/week/0)
SI had them at 26 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/matt_dollinger/10/23/nba-power-rankings-preseason/index.html)
Kurt Helin had them at 21, which seemed high to most commenters (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/29/pbt-power-rankings-heat-start-season-on-top-bobcats-in-cellar/)
Yahoo had them at 26 (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--nba-power-rankings-24341909.html;_ylt=Aq4Z9EKaNqoEMLydVFYexlQLcykA;_y lu=X3oDMTFpcnZpOXUxBG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGh vcgRwb3MDMjAEc2VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0luZGV4;_ylg=X3oDMTF rODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzd GNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)

Hindsight is 20/20, but acting like this team had expectations this year is foolish. Before Harden many felt it was one of the very worst teams in the NBA. Regardless of how talented you think everyone BUT Harden is, the reality was that this team consisted of a group of backups, young players and rookies...that's not a recipe for immediate success. There were no proven players on that roster when Harden got there. None.

You're bashing a guy for not being able to take the league's youngest and most inexperienced team to a better record than they already have...even though they've CLEARLY exceeded any and all expectations this far. While doing so, you're ignoring the numbers which say basically nothing but good things about Harden.

Swashcuff
01-03-2013, 02:01 PM
If everyone is all about a players scoring numbers and making him out to be a true number 1 instead of leading a team to a good record then I guess I lose. Harden can score with the best of them, he gets bailed out a lot by his ******** amount of free throws, but he can score with the best of them.

I guess I go off a true number leads a team hard into the playoffs, which I still think it's too early for it because hey, they can only lose 10 more games for all I know...

I've never considered Melo a true number 1 until this year. He's always been able to score, but this year he's leading as well. Kobe/Dwight (in Orlando)/Wade/James/Rose/Roy(when healthy)/Dirk among a few others are number 1 caliber players.

To me James Harden is to Houston as to what Bosh was to Toronto. He will lead them into the playoffs but be beaten out the first round. Harden, with this team as is or getting more role players, will never be a top 1-2 team in the conference. And if Harden is an Elite number 1 option, he'd be able to lead them to that. That's just how I see it

:laugh2:

Pure comedy. BAILED OUT? Harden is one of the great players and initiating contact and still getting his shot off. He looks for the contact and is an absolute boss and getting it. He isn't getting bailed out of anything it is a major part of his game and he's all but mastered the art of doing so.

tredigs
01-03-2013, 02:02 PM
If everyone is all about a players scoring numbers and making him out to be a true number 1 instead of leading a team to a good record then I guess I lose. Harden can score with the best of them, he gets bailed out a lot by his ******** amount of free throws, but he can score with the best of them.

I guess I go off a true number leads a team hard into the playoffs, which I still think it's too early for it because hey, they can only lose 10 more games for all I know...

I've never considered Melo a true number 1 until this year. He's always been able to score, but this year he's leading as well. Kobe/Dwight (in Orlando)/Wade/James/Rose/Roy(when healthy)/Dirk among a few others are number 1 caliber players.

To me James Harden is to Houston as to what Bosh was to Toronto. He will lead them into the playoffs but be beaten out the first round. Harden, with this team as is or getting more role players, will never be a top 1-2 team in the conference. And if Harden is an Elite number 1 option, he'd be able to lead them to that. That's just how I see it

So essentially what you're saying is that you don't think Harden is one of the premier players of the last half decade (and presumably won't be). That's a fair stance, but it seems contradictory to half the quotes I've seen. A "#1 option" is about being the go to scorer, it's not about your all around game. Many could argue Ben Wallace was the best player on the Pistons title team, but he definitely wasn't any #1 option.

Beyond that, outside of James and possibly KD I don't see any of those players leading this squad to a finals appearance. It's the youngest PLUS most changed team in the NBA, and they still have weaknesses beyond just age and experience.

And agreed with Swashcuff, the "bailout" free throw comment just highlights your lack of respect for Harden and your misunderstanding of his game.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 02:05 PM
I do agree that it was premature to say that Harden is a better building block than Rose, but it doesn't mean that Harden can't become the better player.

As for pre-season expectations:

ESPN had them 22nd to start the season (http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings/_/week/0)
SI had them at 26 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/matt_dollinger/10/23/nba-power-rankings-preseason/index.html)
Kurt Helin had them at 21, which seemed high to most commenters (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/29/pbt-power-rankings-heat-start-season-on-top-bobcats-in-cellar/)
Yahoo had them at 26 (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--nba-power-rankings-24341909.html;_ylt=Aq4Z9EKaNqoEMLydVFYexlQLcykA;_y lu=X3oDMTFpcnZpOXUxBG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGh vcgRwb3MDMjAEc2VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0luZGV4;_ylg=X3oDMTF rODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzd GNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)

Hindsight is 20/20, but acting like this team had expectations this year is foolish. Before Harden many felt it was one of the very worst teams in the NBA. Regardless of how talented you think everyone BUT Harden is, the reality was that this team consisted of a group of backups, young players and rookies...that's not a recipe for immediate success. There were no proven players on that roster when Harden got there. None.

You're bashing a guy for not being able to take the league's youngest and most inexperienced team to a better record than they already have...even though they've CLEARLY exceeded any and all expectations this far. While doing so, you're ignoring the numbers which say basically nothing but good things about Harden.

When were those written? After they got Harden? If so then thats interesting that they thought that while people in here were going crazy over Houston

Rivera
01-03-2013, 02:07 PM
This thread is filled with lulz from rapjuicer

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 02:07 PM
So essentially what you're saying is that you don't think Harden is one of the premier players of the last half decade (and presumably won't be). That's a fair stance, but it seems contradictory to half the quotes I've seen. A "#1 option" is about being the go to scorer, it's not about your all around game. Many could argue Ben Wallace was the best player on the Pistons title team, but he definitely wasn't any #1 option.

Beyond that, outside of James and possibly KD I don't see any of those players leading this squad to a finals appearance. It's the youngest PLUS most changed team in the NBA, and they still have weaknesses beyond just age and experience.

And agreed with Swashcuff, the "bailout" free throw comment just highlights your lack of respect for Harden and your misunderstanding of his game.

I've said the same thing with Wade and his free throw attempts along with Rose and his free throw attempts. They fly to the hoop and throw **** up and get the benefit of the call. If that happened with Kobe, he'd been averaging 40 points a game.

I will say I'm wrong about the number 1 option. I've been meaning best player. They do mean different things, and I will eat those words.

FOBolous
01-03-2013, 02:08 PM
When were those written? After they got Harden? If so then thats interesting that they thought that while people in here were going crazy over Houston

3 of those articles were written before Harden came to Houston, 1 was afterwards. see how big of a difference Harden made? because of Harden, the Rockets went from a lottery team to a playoff team. and let's not forget Houston is THE youngest and the LEAST experienced team in the NBA.

so how do you justify Harden not being a #1 option? Harden's averaging 25 points while leading his team to wins. what else you got?

tredigs
01-03-2013, 02:08 PM
When were those written? After they got Harden? If so then thats interesting that they thought that while people in here were going crazy over Houston

Links? There's nobody here outside of the possibility of a couple ridiculous homers + lin/harden fanatics that could have thought Houston would be an HCA team or contender this season. I think you're suffering from revisionist history.

This is a team that was expected to battle for a playoff spot at best. Though many did agree that Harden would be able to handle the load as a #1 scoring option and do it well. We were clearly right. He's a top 5 scorer in the league right now.

AWC713
01-03-2013, 02:10 PM
Lol...they can't be SA/OKC/Por...you know, the good teams in the West. They split with a ridiculously weird Lakers team and they are constantly beating the Wolves/NO the bad teams, and are splitting with the mediocre teams Utah/Memphis...So yea, the facepalm was not warranted

they beat chicago in chicago, and dismantled the knicks both times they played them. if you want to use the excuse that they didnt have melo, well the rockets beat the knicks by 30 when they did have melo. they have a ton of quality wins. just look at their schedule.

are they on OKC/SA level? no. clearly not. the rockets are the youngest team in the league!!!!!

Swashcuff
01-03-2013, 02:10 PM
3 of those articles were written before Harden came to Houston, 1 was afterwards. see how big of a difference Harden made? because of Harden, the Rockets went from a lottery team to a playoff team. and let's not forget Houston is THE youngest and the LEAST experienced team in the NBA.

Nah actually two were written after the trade while two others weren't.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 02:10 PM
Links? There's nobody here outside of the possibility of a couple ridiculous homers + lin/harden fanatics that could have thought Houston would be an HCA team or contender this season. I think you're suffering from revisionist history.

This is a team that was expected to battle for a playoff spot at best. Though many did agree that Harden would be able to handle the load as a #1 scoring option and do it well. We were clearly right. He's a top 5 scorer in the league right now.

Fair enough. If Harden keeps up his stuff, I will come back in here and admit I was wrong. Everyone jumped his nuts 3 games into the season then he fell flat for awhile. Maybe hes hitting a hot streak again, or this is his level of play and I'll admit I'm wrong

Max.This
01-03-2013, 02:11 PM
Does Harden not remind anyone of a younger Manu Ginobli.

RLundi
01-03-2013, 02:11 PM
I am not a Bulls fan. Just saying Macc was stupid to say he'd want Harden over Rose...that's just asinine.

I think a good case can be made that Hardem is AT LEAST up to par with D Rose. You look at their numbers, it's very similar. Rose's best season and Harden's this year are nearly identical. PER are both around 23.5. Both score at around 25 a game. Harden's eFG and TS are both better than Rose's and Harden is on pace for about 13 win shares, which is exactly what D-Rose got. Who knows if Harden will keep this up but so far, it's not at all reaching to say Harden is on Rose's level.

The only sticking point is to see where how far Harden leaves the Rockets in the postseason.

Swashcuff
01-03-2013, 02:13 PM
Does Harden not remind anyone of a younger Manu Ginobli.

I think damn near everyone says that, especially after last season. Manu was/is still better defensively though.

rapjuicer06
01-03-2013, 02:13 PM
I think a good case can be made that Hardem is AT LEAST up to par with D Rose. You look at their numbers, it's very similar. Rose's best season and Harden's this year are nearly identical. PER are both around 23.5. Both score at around 25 a game. Harden's eFG and TS are both better than Rose's and Harden is on pace for about 13 win shares, which is exactly what D-Rose got. Who knows if Harden will keep this up but so far, it's not at all reaching to say Harden is on Rose's level.

The only sticking point is to see where how far Harden leaves the Rockets in the postseason.

Like I said, I will wait for the end of the season to come around and I will admit I was wrong if he keeps this up

ManRam
01-03-2013, 02:15 PM
When were those written? After they got Harden? If so then thats interesting that they thought that while people in here were going crazy over Houston

You're right. SI and Yahoo's were before it. The other two weren't. But look at CBS, BusinessInsider, SBNation's, Fox's etc. No one had them anywhere but in the 20s AFTER Harden was there.

As for Houston fans' expectations...I'm sure they were PUMPED...but there wasn't playoff buzz. Excitement for the future, for sure...but few thought this was anything but a lottery team.

Maybe you have some links :shrug:

Hell, look here. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=774208

mightybosstone, one of the Rocket fan who's opinions I respect most, said the team would "exceed expectations" but ultimately wind up with a pick in the "6-8 range".

Max.This
01-03-2013, 02:15 PM
I think a good case can be made that Hardem is AT LEAST up to par with D Rose. You look at their numbers, it's very similar. Rose's best season and Harden's this year are nearly identical. PER are both around 23.5. Both score at around 25 a game. Harden's eFG and TS are both better than Rose's and Harden is on pace for about 13 win shares, which is exactly what D-Rose got. Who knows if Harden will keep this up but so far, it's not at all reaching to say Harden is on Rose's level.

The only sticking point is to see where how far Harden leaves the Rockets in the postseason.

Harden is the better franchise player. Rose plays a dangerous game because of his athletic abilities. Harden barely even jumps when he shoots the ball. If they score the same at equal efficiency then it really isnt much of a choice, it would be harden solely based on the future

tredigs
01-03-2013, 02:15 PM
Fair enough. If Harden keeps up his stuff, I will come back in here and admit I was wrong. Everyone jumped his nuts 3 games into the season then he fell flat for awhile. Maybe hes hitting a hot streak again, or this is his level of play and I'll admit I'm wrong

You have a good stance on it and if you do just mean "best player" and it was semantics making the difference, then yeah I think you still have legitimate concerns. I don't think he's there yet as an all around player for a true contender. I see it happening with the right lineup, but the jury's still out. I respect that you didn't shy away from the comments at least.

fredv
01-03-2013, 02:29 PM
RapJuicer,

The Rockets have no bench. Marcus Morris is playing HUGE minutes while he didn't see the court last year because he was terrible. Greg Smith had a couple of minutes last year, but was cut and off to the d-league. This year he is playing HUGE minutes.

The Rockets are in-experienced. Kevin Martin, a legit #3 option is gone. Kyle Lowry and Goran Dragic, the Rockets floor generals are gone. Luis Scola, an olympic and FIBA world cup winner is gone. Marcus Camby, an experienced defensive player is gone. Courtney Lee, an experienced defensive playoff guard is gone.
Look at this teams starting lineup:

Lin 24y/old
Harden 23y/old
Parsons 24y/old
Morris 23y/old
Asik 26y/old

Most importantly, outside of Parsons, NO ONE in this lineup was a regular starter (or even made the starting team once) in the NBA last season.

I think it's safe to say that this team has exceeded expectations. Not entirely, but mostly thanks to Harden and his far-beyond-his-years-experience.

"Tuck in your shirts and lets get to work", first sentence he said when arriving in Houston.

KnickaBocka.44
01-03-2013, 02:31 PM
You have a good stance on it and if you do just mean "best player" and it was semantics making the difference, then yeah I think you still have legitimate concerns. I don't think he's there yet as an all around player for a true contender. I see it happening with the right lineup, but the jury's still out. I respect that you didn't shy away from the comments at least.

This leads to another point that has to be taken into consideration too though...he joined the team a day before the season started. They didn't have any practice time and that is what helped make his first few games for them even more impressive.

The Rockets will have flexibility in this coming offseason to construct the team around Harden. Whether that means Houston gets him a true #2 option or role players to compliment him will go a long way in determining the ceiling for the Rockets as a team; but at this point it should be clear that at 23 years old, Harden is definitely capable of being the cornerstone of a successful team in the future.

C_Mund
01-03-2013, 02:47 PM
You have a good stance on it and if you do just mean "best player" and it was semantics making the difference, then yeah I think you still have legitimate concerns. I don't think he's there yet as an all around player for a true contender. I see it happening with the right lineup, but the jury's still out. I respect that you didn't shy away from the comments at least.

I wish more debates on PSD went like this.

Stinkyoutsider
01-03-2013, 02:56 PM
I knew Harden would get more FGAs but I didn't think he would be playing well in other areas too, like assists and rebounding.

If they can put another piece or 2 around him, they're going to have a team that can compete. On top of all the other skills he has, you can't foul this guy in the fourth quarter because he'll kill you at the foul line. That with his desire to attack the basket makes him a dangerous number 1 option on any team.

ManRam
01-03-2013, 02:59 PM
I knew Harden would get more FGAs but I didn't think he would be playing well in other areas too, like assists and rebounding.

If they can put another piece or 2 around him, they're going to have a team that can compete. On top of all the other skills he has, you can't foul this guy in the fourth quarter because he'll kill you at the foul line. That with his desire to attack the basket makes him a dangerous number 1 option on any team.

A big reason why Russell's assist numbers plummeted last year was because of Harden's increased role as a play maker. His departure, and the fact that he's been replaced by Kevin Martin who can't play a "point" role, is a big reason why the assist numbers are up.

Harden's passing prowess shouldn't come as a surprise. He did it plenty last year.

Chronz
01-03-2013, 03:09 PM
I dont think Westbrook gave much of a **** who was on the floor with him. Harden was the guy doing all the sacrificing.

ManRam
01-03-2013, 03:14 PM
I dont think Westbrook gave much of a **** who was on the floor with him. Harden was the guy doing all the sacrificing.

Well, yeah.

But you don't think a big reason why RWB's assist numbers last year were much lower in part because Harden did a lot of the ball handling? Harden's play-making abilities shouldn't be much of a surprise to people this year...he showed he was a great passer for a SG last year...and probably has emerged as the league's best this year.

Chronz
01-03-2013, 03:23 PM
Well, yeah.

But you don't think a big reason why RWB's assist numbers last year were much lower in part because Harden did a lot of the ball handling? Harden's play-making abilities shouldn't be much of a surprise to people this year...he showed he was a great passer for a SG last year...and probably has emerged as the league's best this year.

Well we agree on Harden for sure.
Ultimately I think it will have a bigger influence on Harden's development than Westbrooks but Im biased here. Statistically speaking, WB spent half his minutes without Harden and Harden alil over a 3rd of his playing time without WB. For Russell there was a difference of about .5 per-36 in assists vs 1.5 for Harden.

I think the lockout had more to do with his assist numbers as off that may sound. I think assists are up in general this year, but in a grueling lockout schedule, athletic freaks like RWB should have an advantage and thus be more aggressive. Just a theory

sep11ie
01-03-2013, 03:29 PM
Harden will continue to get better and better as this team gels together. Man has his passing surprised me. Not that he puts up the numbers, but how well he scores while looking to get teammates involved.

Chronz
01-03-2013, 03:43 PM
Harden will continue to get better and better as this team gels together. Man has his passing surprised me. Not that he puts up the numbers, but how well he scores while looking to get teammates involved.

I've been underwhelmed, Im confident he will sort these turnover issues out tho.

Bruno
01-03-2013, 03:46 PM
okc traded the wrong guard.

b@llhog24
01-03-2013, 03:46 PM
Guess who's been saying this from the inception of time? :whistle:

ManRam
01-03-2013, 04:10 PM
okc traded the wrong guard.

I'm not certain. I mean, they still have the best offense in the NBA. :shrug:

It's not like they're hurting without him.


Guess who's been saying this from the inception of time? :whistle:

Lots of people ;)

:whistle:

tredigs
01-03-2013, 04:13 PM
I'm not certain. I mean, they still have the best offense in the NBA. :shrug:

It's not like they're hurting without him.



Lots of people ;)

:whistle:

And 1. With very solid future draft picks.

Bruno
01-03-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm not certain. I mean, they still have the best offense in the NBA. :shrug:
it's debatable. i just think harden is the better player and that they could have landed an equally good package in a westbrook trade, if not a better package.



It's not like they're hurting without him.
certainly not. they look great.


And 1. With very solid future draft picks.

they couldn't have gotten equally great draft picks by moving Westbrook? he certainly had higher trade value at the time.

westbrooks great, i just think Harden is bit better (and I think he's a better fit with Durant).

TrueFan420
01-03-2013, 04:30 PM
it's debatable. i just think harden is the better player and that they could have landed an equally good package in a westbrook trade, if not a better package.



certainly not. they look great.



they couldn't have gotten equally great draft picks by moving Westbrook? he certainly had higher trade value at the time.

westbrooks great, i just think Harden is bit better (and I think he's a better fit with Durant).

That's the more important thing

astrosmaniac
01-03-2013, 04:37 PM
I've said the same thing with Wade and his free throw attempts along with Rose and his free throw attempts. They fly to the hoop and throw **** up and get the benefit of the call. If that happened with Kobe, he'd been averaging 40 points a game.

I will say I'm wrong about the number 1 option. I've been meaning best player. They do mean different things, and I will eat those words.

Wait, did you jus imply Kobe doesn't get superstar calls? Really?

Lim
01-03-2013, 04:40 PM
harden > westbrook.

Lakers + Giants
01-03-2013, 04:42 PM
My 1st round draft pick. 1st place in my money league :rock:

sammyvine
01-03-2013, 05:13 PM
the reason why i would take harden over westbrook is cos harden can play until he is 35. his game isnt purely based around athleticsm.

Westbrook will be the most useless player in the league when he reacches his 30's. He isn't smart, not a good passer, not a great defender. I honestly can't see what the use of him will be>

Becks2307
01-03-2013, 05:20 PM
Rockets will struggle in the postseason when the game slows down but they are laying great building blocks for the future. They are gonna be a top 4 seed next year if they make the right moves this offseason.

sep11ie
01-03-2013, 05:21 PM
I've been underwhelmed, Im confident he will sort these turnover issues out tho.

A lot of his turnovers are losing the ball/getting stripped, but I see what you are saying.

ChiSox219
01-03-2013, 05:26 PM
A lot of his turnovers are losing the ball/getting stripped, but I see what you are saying.

I don't think his turnovers are much of an issue, he takes good care of the ball and makes excellent decisions. For the amount of ball handling and creation he is responsible his turnover rate is only 11.46, just above the league average of 11.28.

MonroeFAN
01-03-2013, 05:27 PM
I hate to say it, but I was one of the guys who said he was over-rated, and over-paid. At the time I thought the trade worked out well for both parties involved. It's not horrible for OKC, but Harden is definitely a superstar.

He's quickly turned into one of my favorite players to watch (and play with in 2k).

HowFit
01-03-2013, 05:30 PM
:facepalm:

WhiteSoxGod
01-03-2013, 06:20 PM
Yeah Harden and Lin are learning to complement each other much better. If we had an upgrade at PF (such as Paul Millsap) the Rockets would be a giant killer in the playoffs.

fredv
01-03-2013, 06:29 PM
Yeah Harden and Lin are learning to complement each other much better. If we had an upgrade at PF (such as Paul Millsap) the Rockets would be a giant killer in the playoffs.

I understand the Rockets need an upgrade at PF, but:

I don't understand this Millsap love.

Seriously, I would NOT want to throw money at him.

Dnovakovic099
01-03-2013, 06:45 PM
My question is what is the Rockets SOS? I mean, their players all seem to be putting up very good numbers yet they are 18-14. The Bulls are 17-13, yet the Bulls have no star, let alone superstar like you guys claim James Harden is. Heck, Lin has better stats than anyone on the Chicago roster I would say over the last 10-15 games. Also, Asik has been putting up comparable numbers to the Bulls best player, Noah. My point is, are we overrating all the players on the Rockets? Maybe, we should be bashing their backcourt for their awful defense, or am I wrong and the Rockets have played a way harder schedule than the Bulls, which is possible seeing as the East sucks and the West is stacked. Im not hating, just curious.

sep11ie
01-03-2013, 06:49 PM
My question is what is the Rockets SOS? I mean, their players all seem to be putting up very good numbers yet they are 18-14. The Bulls are 17-13, yet the Bulls have no star, let alone superstar like you guys claim James Harden is. Heck, Lin has better stats than anyone on the Chicago roster I would say over the last 10-15 games. Also, Asik has been putting up comparable numbers to the Bulls best player, Noah. My point is, are we overrating all the players on the Rockets? Maybe, we should be bashing their backcourt for their awful defense, or am I wrong and the Rockets have played a way harder schedule than the Bulls, which is possible seeing as the East sucks and the West is stacked. Im not hating, just curious.

They started off very slow, you gotta remember they had no training camp together. They had one practice before the regular season. It takes a while for dudes to learn each others styles.

WhiteSoxGod
01-03-2013, 06:49 PM
I understand the Rockets need an upgrade at PF, but:

I don't understand this Millsap love.

Seriously, I would NOT want to throw money at him.

Let me explain...and yes this will be long. It's as I told others in another forum we have to look at what is the ideal fit for the Rockets, assuming the rest of our starting 5 remains Lin, Harden, Parsons and Asik, and the coaching philosophy (especially on offense) stays the same.

For coaching philosophy, letís look at the role our own PFs are playing this year, within the offense.

This year, the most noticeable development weíve seen in Marcus Morris and Patterson is theyíre both trying to develop that corner 3pt shot (with varying degrees of success). Patterson is shooting 30% on 3ptFG on 1.7 3ptFGA (vs 0.2 3ptFGA) last year, and Marcus Morris 38% on 3ptFG on 3.2 3ptFGA. The sample size on T Jones is too small, but heís taking 1 3pt shot per game, and we know DMo has a 3pt shot (albeit inconsistent). I think that's clearly a coaching direction/decision.

Remember, these are the 6-8/6-9 PFs weíve drafted the past 3 years (excluding White, whoís niche is his passing as a big man). All have the ability to develop a 3pt shot, and thatís the offense weíre playing.

Coincidence? I think not.

And it occurred with the end of Rick Adelmanís motion/Princeton offense at the Rockets, which involved little corner 3pt shooting by our PFs. When Morey gave Les his final two candidates for the coaches, would you not think he either got a coach that gave him input into the type of offense to run, or a coach that believed in his offensive (and defensive) philosophies?

Still think the 3-pt shooting PF is a coincidence? Weíve even read the front office asking Scola to develop a 3pt shot over the offseason, before he was amnestied in an attempt to get Howard (or decision to go young).

----------------------
Letís take a look around the league, and see how many serious 3pt shooting PFs there are. The only players that consistently shoot a high percentage (>35%) and are worth >$8M/yr are Dirk, Kevin Love, Ryan Anderson, Ersan Ilyasova, Gallinari, and Bargnani (considering him as a PF, not C), plus the recent SF converts LBJ and Carmelo.

And if Ilyasova, Gallinari and Bargnani were not such poor rebounders/defenders for their position, they would be near if not max contract players also. But what they are, are players that score much more than their ability would suggest, if they did not have that 3-pt shot to open up their game.

And when we look at LBJ and Carmelo, we know they have not been consistently great 3pt shooting SFs historically (around 32-33%), but playing at the PF spot, they are shooting extremely well (LBJ at 44% and Carmelo at 38% this season), because they get serious quickness mismatches on traditional PFs and height or strength mismatches inside when opposing teams play their SFs on them.

Perhaps that is what Morey had in mind in drafting Marcus Morris and Terrence Jones. 2Pat and DMo are the more traditional PFs, except they have a develop-able 3pt shot.

So instead of Morey having a fascination with 6-8/6-9 tweener PFs, perhaps he just has a fascination with 3-pt shooting PFs? Because that's a big part of the offense he wants the coaches to run!

So letís get down to analyzing our potential star PF via trade or free agency. I think we can rule out LMA and Love, because you canít plan for teams trading these types of players (just like Harden). The 3 other obvious alternatives are Al Jefferson, Josh Smith and Paul Millsap.

Jefferson doesnít shoot 3s, and he would probably clog the lane even more with Asik, despite him being the best low-post option. But I canít imagine Asik being defended anywhere outside the key, so perhaps not a great idea.

Josh Smith would be great on transition, but he neither has a good low-post game, or a consistent outside jumper (27% from 3s in career). He would be great defensively as a weakside shotblocker, and is a very good passer, but would he be an overall great fit for the team?

Paul Millsap, I initially thought, was a jack-of-all trades PF without a particular strength. But what piqued my interest in him is his developing 3-pt shot this season (knowing Morey wants 3pt shooting PFs), and I decided to find out more.

Having not shot more than 0.5 3-pointers per game before this year, Millsap is actually shooting a very good 55.6% froms 3s this year, off a more meaningful 1.4 3ptFGA this year. It'll regress (but to where we don't know yet), but it's definitely a new tool in his game. And that 1.4 is just slightly less than 2Patís 1.7 3ptFGA/game this year.

And Millsap is only 27 and in his sixth season, which is not too old an age for NBA players to develop a Ďsetí 3pt shot, much like Sam Perkins (12th season) and Rasheed Wallace (6th season) did.

Take a look at this Millsap clip in the 2010-11 season. 11 points in 28 sec vs Heat, to put the game into OT, with three 3-pointers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCiHOpNJXnc

But what about Millsap the player (overall)? And his fit with the Rockets?

Well, I think most Rockets fans would probably agree with the Rockets needing a PF that fits the below description, assuming Lin, Harden, Parsons and Asik remains the other members of the starting 5:

- Solid rebounder, say around 8 rebounds per 36min (vs 2Patís 6.5), more is better but isnít a big need as weíre already a top rebounding team
- A solid but not necessarily great defender, but capable on PnRs and isolation defense, with ability to produce some steals (and good rebounding) to ignite the fast break
- Preferably a good weakside shot blocker
- 18-20pts/36min, preferably able to hit the mid-range jump shot, play in the PnR (both as shooter and roll man), space the floor with a respectable 3pt jumper (set shot is good enough), and create some offense from iso situation.
- Good passing big-man (our team passing is pretty good, and doesnít mix well with a black-hole inside) with low turnover rate (team already high TOs with Harden/Lin/Asik)
- A winning player, not necessarily with championship or deep playoff experience, but with good adjusted +/- and win-share stats
- Age of ~26-28, as big men develop later and hit their primes around 28-32, so you donít want to get a 23yr old big men and wait another 4 years for them to develop, wasting the prime of Harden/Lin/Parsons/Asik. But you donít want them so old (Pau Gasol) that you canít develop new facets to their game.
- No injury history
- Basically a well-rounded guy with a need for scoring more so than defense (because we have Asik)
-------------------


So letís look at Millsap with regards to this.


- Never missed more than 6 games per year in his career

- 2010-11 averaged, per 36mins, 18pts, 8rebs, 2.6 assists, 1blk, 1.5 steals and 2TOs, shooting 53% 2ptFG and 76% FTs on 4.6FTAs

- 2011-12 averaged, per 36mins, 18pts, 9.7rebs, 2.5 assists, 0.9blks, 2 steals, and 2TOs, shooting 50% 2ptFG and 79% FTs on 4.4FTAs

- 2012-13 so far (13 games) averaging, per 36mins, 17.5pts, 10.2rebs, 2.7 assists, 1.4blks, 1 steal, and 2.4TOs, shooting 47% overall FGs including 56% on 3s and 71% FTs on 4.7FTAs

- His PERs were 19.8 in 2010-11, 21.8 in 2011-12 and 19.7 in 2012-13 (so far), and heís never averaged below 16.1 PER in his six completed seasons so far.

- His WS/48 were 0.143 in 2010-11, 0.179 in 2011-12 (just outside top 10 in NBA) and 0.158 in 2012-13 (so far), and has never dipped below 0.143 in his six completed seasons.

- TS% has ranged between 54% to 58% in last 3 years, above league average.
(http://www.basketball-reference.com/...millspa01.html)

- This article from Basketball Prospectus (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=834) has the Win Shares/48min, Adjusted plus/minus, statistical plus/minus, alternate win score, PER etc for the 2011/12 season up to the start of February. Millsap is pretty much ranked in the top 3 of western coference PFs of everything, and would be about top 5 PF overall.

---------------
Hereís Hollingerís analysis of Millsap for 2012-13


+ Scouting report Undersized, high-energy 4 who can score around basket or hit midrange jumpers
+ Excellent rebounder with good hands and wide frame. Amazing knack for steals.
+ Size a problem defensively. Good passer. Moves well without ball into openings.

Millsap might be the most underrated player in the league. I love this guy. Heís not a prototype 4 because heís undersized, but heís athletic, skilled and just knows how to play. He beats smaller players on post-ups, takes bigger ones off the dribble and confounds both with his midrange jump shot.

Last season was his best yet Ė he averaged better than a point every two minutes, ranked sixth among power forwards in player efficiency rating, and had he been in the Eastern Conference certainly would have made the All-Star Game. The key is how broad-based his skills are: Millsap was in the top half of power forwards in every category I track except fouls per minute. All of them.

He was in the top quarter of power forwards in rebounds and assists. He got to the line and made his freebies. He made 41.6 percent of his long 2s and 71.6 percent of his shots in the basket area. He didn't turn it over. While he lacks a single defining go-to move, he has such an assortment of options that he can score on nearly anybody; in particular, his ball skills have really improved.

And for an undersized 4, his defense sure doesn't seem to be a problem. He fouls a lot, and that keeps him off the court sometimes. However, the Jazz were once again better with him on the court than off it, while Synergy's stats rated him above the league average for power forwards.

And then there's this little nugget: Millsap averaged 2.25 steals per 40 minutes. To put that in perspective, no other frontcourt player averaged more than 2.0, and no small forward matched Millsap's total either. The top 11 players in steal rate last season were 10 guys 6-4 or shorter -- and Paul Millsap.

-----------------------------------------

Furthermore, Millsapís Synergy stats for 2011-12 shows he used 24.2% his possession on post-ups (ranked #77 in the league in PPP), 15.7% in spot-ups (#237), 13.1% on cuts (#25), 9% on offensive rebounds (#9), 11.3% on transition (#173), 9% on isolation (#141) and 7.4% as PnR roll man (#73).

So heís excellent on cuts and offensive rebounds, pretty good on post-ups and PnR roll man, above average still on transition and isolation, and average at best on spot-ups. Note in 2010-11, Millsap was 15th best in NBA in post-ups.

Defensively, Millsap in 2011-12 was average at best in post-ups (#141), but he was #37 in iso defense, #24 off screens and #55 in PnR guarding the roller. Allowed also 33% shooting only when dealing with stretch 4s. Players shot only 28% against him in iso defense, and he forced 11% of possessions into turnovers and didnít give up a single and 1.

Millsap and Asik would probably form one of the best off screens, PnR roller and iso defending big man tandem in the league.

(http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjaz...ynergy-sports/)

I also think Millsapís shooting percentages could be better if the Jazz could spread the court better for him. Playing together with back-to-the-basket Jefferson and Marvin Williams (30% career 3pt shooter) as starting SF really hurts the Jazzís spacing inside. And this yearís lower 2ptFG% is probably due to Mo Williams (more of a shooting PG) manning the point.

-------------------------------------------

So if it sounds pretty good, why hasnít the Jazz signed Millsap to an extension yet?

Hereís where the new CBA also hurts the Jazz and creates a potential opening for Daryl Morey. Basically the Jazz can offer Millsap only up to a 3yr extension of $25M, and Millsap rejected it opting to go for free agency.
(http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/8/6/3222...e-downbeat-810)

The article lists only Bobcats, Rockets, Pacers, Magic, Trailblazers, Raptors and Wizards (in addition to Jazz) as having the cap space to sign Millsap in the off-season.

Most of the teams are deep lottery level, which isnít appealing for a PF heading into his prime, Pacers have David West, Portland has LMA and Toronto has typically never attracted FAs (taxes, weather). And the Jazz has Derrick Favors & Enes Kanter upcoming and Al Jefferson as a free-agent this year as well.

This being said I think we can get Millsap for around $11 million per year. The Rockets could then, if they can trade Patterson and Morris for picks/non-guaranteed contracts, still sign another MAX free agent.

Chronz
01-03-2013, 06:55 PM
A lot of his turnovers are losing the ball/getting stripped, but I see what you are saying.
Yea but sometimes when hes getting stripped its because he didn't pass the ball. Other times they have been careless passes. Hes a slasher and playmaker so the turnovers are worth the cost, but to take that next step he has to cut down the turnovers. Hes already about as efficient with his scoring as you could expect and hes not going to be a strong rebounder/defender.


I don't think his turnovers are much of an issue, he takes good care of the ball and makes excellent decisions. For the amount of ball handling and creation he is responsible his turnover rate is only 11.46, just above the league average of 11.28.
What do you think is his biggest flaw?

Chronz
01-03-2013, 06:58 PM
I understand the Rockets need an upgrade at PF, but:

I don't understand this Millsap love.

Seriously, I would NOT want to throw money at him.
I love Milsap but they have so many project 4's that it would suck if any of them panned out elsewhere with the Rox giving up their assets for a minimal upgrade. If they never pan out and the Rox miss the chance on adding an All-Star PF, then it would be Morey's biggest misstep.


Rox should stand pat with the group they have and see how Lin+Harden mesh over the coming weeks before making any decision.

ManRam
01-03-2013, 07:01 PM
My question is what is the Rockets SOS? I mean, their players all seem to be putting up very good numbers yet they are 18-14. The Bulls are 17-13, yet the Bulls have no star, let alone superstar like you guys claim James Harden is. Heck, Lin has better stats than anyone on the Chicago roster I would say over the last 10-15 games. Also, Asik has been putting up comparable numbers to the Bulls best player, Noah. My point is, are we overrating all the players on the Rockets? Maybe, we should be bashing their backcourt for their awful defense, or am I wrong and the Rockets have played a way harder schedule than the Bulls, which is possible seeing as the East sucks and the West is stacked. Im not hating, just curious.

The Bulls are an absolutely elite defensive team. Houston is not. Having the league's best defense, or something close to it, is essentially as important as having a superstar

There's your answer.

Chronz
01-03-2013, 07:05 PM
GOAT MILSAPE POSt

Dnovakovic099
01-03-2013, 07:14 PM
The Bulls are an absolutely elite defensive team. Houston is not. Having the league's best defense, or something close to it, is essentially as important as having a superstar

There's your answer.

This is my point. Harden, Lin, and Asik get more credit/put up better offensive numbers than any Bulls player. Asik/Noah is arguable. Yet, Chicago is as good of a team as Houston? Are we all underrating defense then? Maybe Deng should be considered a star then too? All I am getting at is that Houston player's stats benefit a lot from their system, which is a lot of offense and very little defense.

astrosmaniac
01-03-2013, 07:20 PM
My question is what is the Rockets SOS? I mean, their players all seem to be putting up very good numbers yet they are 18-14. The Bulls are 17-13, yet the Bulls have no star, let alone superstar like you guys claim James Harden is. Heck, Lin has better stats than anyone on the Chicago roster I would say over the last 10-15 games. Also, Asik has been putting up comparable numbers to the Bulls best player, Noah. My point is, are we overrating all the players on the Rockets? Maybe, we should be bashing their backcourt for their awful defense, or am I wrong and the Rockets have played a way harder schedule than the Bulls, which is possible seeing as the East sucks and the West is stacked. Im not hating, just curious.


They started off very slow, you gotta remember they had no training camp together. They had one practice before the regular season. It takes a while for dudes to learn each others styles.


The Bulls are an absolutely elite defensive team. Houston is not. Having the league's best defense, or something close to it, is essentially as important as having a superstar

There's your answer.

these are all right. a slow start due to basically all the stuff they worked on in preseason getting thrown out when harden came, they aren't a great defensive team (but not horrible like some think), and they have had a ridiculously hard SOS. 3rd hardest in the league according to ESPN (playing NYK twice, MIA, OKC/SAS 5X already) doesnt help their overall record. http://espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS

Dnovakovic099
01-03-2013, 07:20 PM
Also, I agree with the poster who said that a team where Harden is your best player cannot win a championship. With teams like OKC, Miami, LA, and the Spurs it would be difficult to surround Harden with inferior players and to end up having a better team than one of those. On the other hand, if you put Harden with Dwight... I just don't see Harden doing enough on the defensive end to be considered a superstar. Unless, he shuts down pg's and the Rockets get a pg who can shut down sg's, or am I way off base and Harden can shut down elite 2 guards despite his size?

Dnovakovic099
01-03-2013, 07:23 PM
these are all right. a slow start due to basically all the stuff they worked on in preseason getting thrown out when harden came, they aren't a great defensive team (but not horrible like some think), and they have had a ridiculously hard SOS. 3rd hardest in the league according to ESPN (playing NYK twice, MIA, OKC/SAS 5X already) doesnt help their overall record. http://espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS

Oh wow, now that is impressive! Didn't know they played OKC/SAS 5 times! If the Bulls had that schedule I think they wouldn't be .500. Wow this Houston team can become an instant contender if they somehow could find a way to lure Dwight in during free agency. Then you package Asik and all the young talent they have for a legit power foward and you have a top 5 team IMO.

astrosmaniac
01-03-2013, 07:25 PM
This is my point. Harden, Lin, and Asik get more credit/put up better offensive numbers than any Bulls player. Asik/Noah is arguable. Yet, Chicago is as good of a team as Houston? Are we all underrating defense then? Maybe Deng should be considered a star then too? All I am getting at is that Houston player's stats benefit a lot from their system, which is a lot of offense and very little defense.

hollinger's defensive efficiency has houston 19th in the league. you cant just look at pure points cause of their pace. i believe they are a top 10 D in the half cort but close to dead last in transition D (which might be expected with new players still learning each other early on)

fredv
01-03-2013, 07:29 PM
Millsapp analysis.


Great freakin post. 5 stars.

I understand a little more now there love for the tweener PF.

Makes me think Landry would have been perfect in this system.

Dnovakovic099
01-03-2013, 07:29 PM
hollinger's defensive efficiency has houston 19th in the league. you cant just look at pure points cause of their pace. i believe they are a top 10 D in the half cort but close to dead last in transition D (which might be expected with new players still learning each other early on)

Yea, this was what I was getting at. I do not know why I just didn't say pace right away haha. However, very impressive to be winning games in a tough western conference with the third hardest SOS. Even, if their offensive stats are inflated a bit due to pace, they should be getting recognition for the wins. Also, I feel as though Lin has been getting overshadowed by Harden, I can't believe I am actually saying Lin is being overshadowed lol.

GiantsSwaGG
01-03-2013, 07:35 PM
James Harden > Dwayne Wade

b@llhog24
01-03-2013, 07:39 PM
I'm not certain. I mean, they still have the best offense in the NBA. :shrug:

It's not like they're hurting without him.



Lots of people ;)

:whistle:

:laugh2: Touche.


the reason why i would take harden over westbrook is cos harden can play until he is 35. his game isnt purely based around athleticsm.

Westbrook will be the most useless player in the league when he reacches his 30's. He isn't smart, not a good passer, not a great defender. I honestly can't see what the use of him will be>

:eyebrow:


This is my point. Harden, Lin, and Asik get more credit/put up better offensive numbers than any Bulls player. Asik/Noah is arguable. Yet, Chicago is as good of a team as Houston? Are we all underrating defense then? Maybe Deng should be considered a star then too? All I am getting at is that Houston player's stats benefit a lot from their system, which is a lot of offense and very little defense.

Houston has more impressive efficiency marks.

torocan
01-03-2013, 07:41 PM
these are all right. a slow start due to basically all the stuff they worked on in preseason getting thrown out when harden came, they aren't a great defensive team (but not horrible like some think), and they have had a ridiculously hard SOS. 3rd hardest in the league according to ESPN (playing NYK twice, MIA, OKC/SAS 5X already) doesnt help their overall record. http://espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS

The Rockets' schedule has been pretty ridiculous.

SAS x 3, Knicks x 2, OKC x 2, Chicago x 2, Portland x 2, Atlanta x 2, Utah x 2, Lakers x 2, Boston, Memphis, Miami, Denver, 76ers, and Minnesota comprise 23 of their 36 total games.

Hollinger at ESPN slots them as 3rd toughest with .538 and Wages of Wins slots them as 4th toughest through Christmas and 6th toughest for the remainder of the year.

It doesn't help they have Memphis and SAS in their division, which means they play SAS and Memphis 4x each, on top of playing the Clippers and OKC 3x each this season. That's 14/82 games against legitimate WCF contenders.

They're also 12-2 vs the East with their only losses against the East being a 3 point loss to Miami (leading until the last 30s) and the Raptors (blow out loss).

WhiteSoxGod
01-03-2013, 07:48 PM
GOAT MILSAPE POSt


Great freakin post. 5 stars.

I understand a little more now there love for the tweener PF.

Makes me think Landry would have been perfect in this system.

Thank you, while I know it took a while to read, it took 5 times longer to research and compose, lol.

sep11ie
01-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Thank you, while I know it took a while to read, it took 5 times longer to research and compose, lol.

Dude, all you have to do is highlight, right click, hit copy, scroll over post box, right click again and press paste... :D

WhiteSoxGod
01-03-2013, 07:58 PM
Dude, all you have to do is highlight, right click, hit copy, scroll over post box, right click again and press paste... :D

LOL that's a lot of work

Verbal Christ
01-03-2013, 08:13 PM
enjoyed lurking, but some rocket fans trying to make the claim that the rockets have a borderline top 10 defense is ridiculous. lets calm down just a bit. this team is a flawed defensive team, who MUST outscore in order to win. they cant shut people down in the half court, or at least i havent seen it yet. they also lead the league in turnovers ... bad D + high turnover rate is a recipe for disaster, but somehow they are playing well enough to be above .500 while playing an entertaining 80's brand of basketball.

i think that is a testament to what harden is doing for the chemistry. that unknown intangilbe in basketball. he's making players around him better. thats what the very good players do. kevin martin could score the hell our of the ball, but he never make anyone around him better.

i think as rockets fans we need to enjoy the ride, but refrain from the blatant homerism and be a little more objective. this was a developmental year anyhow, being in contention for the playoffs is just the cherry on top, but without an elevated defensive intensity and strong attempt to limit turnovers could have them on the outside looking in. What do you expect from the youngest team in the league really?

b@llhog24
01-03-2013, 08:28 PM
enjoyed lurking, but some rocket fans trying to make the claim that the rockets have a borderline top 10 defense is ridiculous. lets calm down just a bit. this team is a flawed defensive team, who MUST outscore in order to win. they cant shut people down in the half court, or at least i havent seen it yet. they also lead the league in turnovers ... bad D + high turnover rate is a recipe for disaster, but somehow they are playing well enough to be above .500 while playing an entertaining 80's brand of basketball.

i think that is a testament to what harden is doing for the chemistry. that unknown intangilbe in basketball. he's making players around him better. thats what the very good players do. kevin martin could score the hell our of the ball, but he never make anyone around him better.

i think as rockets fans we need to enjoy the ride, but refrain from the blatant homerism and be a little more objective. this was a developmental year anyhow, being in contention for the playoffs is just the cherry on top, but without an elevated defensive intensity and strong attempt to limit turnovers could have them on the outside looking in. What do you expect from the youngest team in the league really?

Where?

Verbal Christ
01-03-2013, 08:31 PM
I mistyped. astros maniac was saying we had a near top 10 halfcourt D, but a bad transition defense. im still not completely on board with that statement, but i jumped to a conclusion. my mistake.

astrosmaniac
01-03-2013, 08:47 PM
I mistyped. astros maniac was saying we had a near top 10 halfcourt D, but a bad transition defense. im still not completely on board with that statement, but i jumped to a conclusion. my mistake.

i remember hearing that on a stats site but cant remember where. i dont have access to stuff like synergy that gives me a better breakdown of halfcourt VS transition D.

and not just bad transition D, horrible transition D

ChiSox219
01-04-2013, 12:28 AM
Synergy has them 26th in transition defense

astrosmaniac
01-04-2013, 12:56 AM
Synergy has them 26th in transition defense

do they also have halfcourt defense by itself?

jam
01-04-2013, 03:53 AM
Harden is a top 10 player; far better than KLove or Rondo.

He is a bit of a ball stopper, in the vein of the notorious NYK Carmela, but a good coaching staff would be able to integrate him nicely into a motion offense.

We've seen what's possible already with Harden and the rockets scoring over 120 pts on a regular basis.

sagemania
01-04-2013, 04:00 AM
The Rockets are beating bad teams and losing to good teams...lots a teams do this. He's putting up good numbers, no doubt. But he's not exactly beating good teams (and thats hard because no one is around him really) Put a guy thats lesser than he is, I still don't see them being able to compete with the big boys. Get him a player better than him, they'll be right up there. He's not a number 1 on a contending team. Have always said it, and will continue to say it

We;ve beaten Memphis, bulls(twice), Lakers, Philly, Knicks(twice),Boston and took the Spurs to OT without Harden and lost by 6 in San antonio. So stop lying.

sagemania
01-04-2013, 04:02 AM
In the last 14 games he is averaging 29 points 5 boards 6 assists

c.c.
01-04-2013, 04:16 AM
Woopdy doo...Kobe's had 10 streak of over 30 (would be 12 now if he didn't sit the entire 4th vs Portland)

Durant and LeBron could easily have that streak over 35ppg if they had Harden's supporting cast

That's Kobe and Durant though

fredv
01-04-2013, 04:56 AM
Woopdy doo...Kobe's had 10 streak of over 30 (would be 12 now if he didn't sit the entire 4th vs Portland)

Durant and LeBron could easily have that streak over 35ppg if they had Harden's supporting cast

He also just had his 151st game without an assist...

b@llhog24
01-04-2013, 10:34 AM
Woopdy doo...Kobe's had 10 streak of over 30 (would be 12 now if he didn't sit the entire 4th vs Portland)

Durant and LeBron could easily have that streak over 35ppg if they had Harden's supporting cast

He also just had his 151st game without an assist...

:laugh:

fredv
01-04-2013, 11:48 AM
:laugh:

Btw Lebron only has 2 games without an assist for his entire career. AND he played in Cleveland.

sep11ie
01-04-2013, 12:57 PM
Harden's beard has more assists this year than Kobe.

Saddletramp
01-04-2013, 03:21 PM
Btw Lebron only has 2 games without an assist for his entire career. AND he played in Cleveland.

And one of those (the first one?) was against the Rockets (granted it was years ago, but it's a nice little coincidence).

Chronz
01-04-2013, 04:30 PM
And one of those (the first one?) was against the Rockets (granted it was years ago, but it's a nice little coincidence).

Do you remember that game? What a lockdown. Artest+Battier+Hayes+Yao+Deke IIRC. Man that was a great defensive team

I remember another Bron game where Deke layed him out and he was done, prolly got 1 assist that night.

Saddletramp
01-04-2013, 07:15 PM
Yup. Great stuff. If they coulda just scored back then.......

Lucky Junior
01-05-2013, 03:29 AM
beast he is. hes been efficiently scoring and leading this team to victories time after time. he closes in the fourth and gets to free throw line over and over again. i remember a bunch of people saying that he was overrated and not worth a max. i wonder where those people are now?

Still don't think he's worth a max. I think you should only give the max to a guy that can lead you to a championship. Harden can't do that. Everyone knew he could score. And that with the green light he'd get that he could average 23 points a night. But most likely the Rockets are gonna be in the worse place possible. That 7/8 seed means no ring and no lottery.

Add in that Lin isn't at his best playing next to Harden and that Lin and Asik's contracts won't allow them to spend money. Just a bad decision. When they missed out on Howard they should've stood pat. And waited on a great deal. There's no rush because losing a bunch of games only gets you a better position in the draft.

And with Cousins being available. That's the guy they should've gone after with their picks.

c.c.
01-05-2013, 03:39 AM
Do you remember that game? What a lockdown. Artest+Battier+Hayes+Yao+Deke IIRC. Man that was a great defensive team

I remember another Bron game where Deke layed him out and he was done, prolly got 1 assist that night.

I was thinking championship in them days

mightybosstone
01-05-2013, 03:39 AM
Still don't think he's worth a max. I think you should only give the max to a guy that can lead you to a championship. Harden can't do that. Everyone knew he could score. And that with the green light he'd get that he could average 23 points a night. But most likely the Rockets are gonna be in the worse place possible. That 7/8 seed means no ring and no lottery.

Add in that Lin isn't at his best playing next to Harden and that Lin and Asik's contracts won't allow them to spend money. Just a bad decision. When they missed out on Howard they should've stood pat. And waited on a great deal. There's no rush because losing a bunch of games only gets you a better position in the draft.

And with Cousins being available. That's the guy they should've gone after with their picks.
:facepalm:

So much of this statement is wrong, but if you don't understand how good Harden's been this season you either haven't watched a single Rockets game this season or you have no understanding of statistical production.

Harden is first in the league in free throws made, 10th in steals, fifth in scoring, 8th in PER, 10th in USG, 6th in WS and 11th in WS/48 and 14th in TS%. He has, without a doubt, been one of the 10 best best players in the NBA this season and he's only 23 years old.

So, again, if you don't think he's worth a max contract, you either don't watch him play or have no ****ing clue how to measure a player's value.

Money_23
01-05-2013, 04:16 AM
Harden is a rich man's Kobe Bryant.

jam
01-05-2013, 05:05 AM
Harden is a rich man's Kobe Bryant.

Harden is one of the top 10 mvp candidates already.

BUT, Kobe Bryant is likely the 2nd best 34 year old player of all time, behind you know who.

Swashcuff
01-05-2013, 09:20 AM
This whole idiotic statement of only players who can win titles as the man deserve max contracts is so foolish. For years people said Dirk couldn't do it. Guess what? He did. No one expected Wade to do it in his 3rd year in the league. He did. Look at the Pistons and the Celtics. C

lassic examples as to why that statement makes not sense. It takes a team to win in basketball not a player. If that was the case Shaq would have more than 4 titles.

You give the Rockets a player like say Paul Millsap to play the PF and the version of Eric Bledsoe everyone is expecting to see in a couple years (absolute lockdown defender who can give you a solid 15-5-6) and before Asik's contract can expire you'd have a legit contender.

Jesse2272
01-05-2013, 09:32 AM
Harden is sick

where is he all time single season w/s cant find him

just fyi

season is young

Jesse2272
01-05-2013, 09:32 AM
Harden is sick

where is he all time single season w/s cant find him

just fyi

season is young

torocan
01-05-2013, 09:58 AM
Still don't think he's worth a max. I think you should only give the max to a guy that can lead you to a championship. Harden can't do that. Everyone knew he could score. And that with the green light he'd get that he could average 23 points a night. But most likely the Rockets are gonna be in the worse place possible. That 7/8 seed means no ring and no lottery.

Add in that Lin isn't at his best playing next to Harden and that Lin and Asik's contracts won't allow them to spend money. Just a bad decision. When they missed out on Howard they should've stood pat. And waited on a great deal. There's no rush because losing a bunch of games only gets you a better position in the draft.

And with Cousins being available. That's the guy they should've gone after with their picks.

If you used leading to a championship as a standard for a max salary, not only would only 4 or 5 players in the entire NBA qualify, but Lebron wouldn't have qualified for the first 7 years of his career.

And No ring, no lottery is FAR from the worst outcome when you have 13 new players, the youngest team in the NBA, and average less than 2 years of experience.

The Rockets may very well end up as the 7th or 8th seed, or implode and be a lottery team. However, right now they solidly hold on to the 6th seed in the WEST, in a division with both San Antonio and Memphis, and happen to be 8-2 in the last 10, 19-14 with the 3rd toughest schedule in the NBA, 13-2 against the East.

That's pretty darn impressive for a team of players where most of them have never set foot on the court together and their number one option didn't even arrive until 2 days before the regular season, IE, NO TRAINING CAMP.

As for the contracts, you're just plain wrong. Though Lin and Asik earn 5/5/15 over the next 3 years, each of those contracts count as $8.3M per year against Houston's cap.

Houston has sufficient cap space to sign a free agent MAX salary player in the off season without a trade. They have complete flexibility going forward, and that's before you're even talking about a trade.

And if they do some wheeling and dealing, it's conceivable that they could snag TWO max players.

Right now, Houston has $49.3M on the books in terms of cap. This drops to $40.8M next year in guaranteed salaries. And this drops even further the year after to only $31.4M the year after.

Houston has nothing but flexibility moving forward....

http://www.hoopsworld.com/houston-rockets-team-salary/

AnthonyTyrael
01-05-2013, 11:32 AM
He's great already but if he can lift his all around game just a little more... :)

Andrew32
01-05-2013, 02:56 PM
Harden is great but Wade and maybe Kobe are still better at the SG position.

MetroMan
01-05-2013, 03:45 PM
Harden is the 2nd best sg in the league

Chronz
01-05-2013, 03:49 PM
Harden is great but Wade and maybe Kobe are still better at the SG position.

When is Wade going to start playing like it?

mightybosstone
01-05-2013, 03:55 PM
Harden is the 3rd best sg in the. League
Harden's been better than Wade this season.

KniCks4LiFe
01-05-2013, 04:01 PM
Harden is great but Wade and maybe Kobe are still better at the SG position.

:facepalm:

DanG
01-05-2013, 05:21 PM
Harden has been very impressive.

Verbal Christ
01-05-2013, 05:25 PM
Still don't think he's worth a max. I think you should only give the max to a guy that can lead you to a championship. Harden can't do that. Everyone knew he could score. And that with the green light he'd get that he could average 23 points a night. But most likely the Rockets are gonna be in the worse place possible. That 7/8 seed means no ring and no lottery.

Add in that Lin isn't at his best playing next to Harden and that Lin and Asik's contracts won't allow them to spend money. Just a bad decision. When they missed out on Howard they should've stood pat. And waited on a great deal. There's no rush because losing a bunch of games only gets you a better position in the draft.

And with Cousins being available. That's the guy they should've gone after with their picks.

so you're saying that cousins IS worth the max and WILL lead a team to championship, but harden can't?

Are you high?

heyman321
01-05-2013, 05:38 PM
Harden is better than Wade. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a punch to the ovary. A straight shot, right to the babymaker.

Bruno
01-05-2013, 05:40 PM
Harden is great but Wade and maybe Kobe are still better at the SG position.

Wade and maybe Kobe? Have you been watching this season?

Harden has been better than Wade, Kobe has been better than both of them. lets see what their production looks like come playoffs.

Becks2307
01-05-2013, 05:44 PM
Kobe
Harden
Wade


But, when Wade wants he can be better than Harden, won't likely see that until playoff time.

STL Don
01-05-2013, 05:45 PM
He's found himself in Houston. We all saw plenty of flashes from him while playing in OKC and it was obvious that they had something special there. I'm happy for him that he was given the opportunity to be traded to a team where he can be the center of attention and the new building block for a rebuilding franchise. He's young, extremely talented and has proved himself to be a consistent #1 option and an allstar caliber player.
Now they must continue to build, one more star could do it.

Andrew32
01-05-2013, 06:38 PM
Wade and maybe Kobe? Have you been watching this season?

Harden has been better than Wade, Kobe has been better than both of them. lets see what their production looks like come playoffs.
I don't judge players purely by raw stats.
Wade is still better then Harden.

There is a thing called defense and Wade is a much better scorer everywhere on the court inside the 3pt line.

Harden's offensive game is quite limited compared to D-Wade and he is worse defensively by a margin.

sep11ie
01-05-2013, 06:40 PM
I think the main problem is that he's been in the spotlight/talked about for a few years now and people forget he's only 23. He's embraced every role he's been handed since becoming a NBA player and excelled at it. People need to give credit where credit is due.

sep11ie
01-05-2013, 06:41 PM
I don't judge players purely by raw stats.
Wade is still better then Harden.

There is a thing called defense and Wade is a much better scorer everywhere on the court inside the 3pt line.Harden's offensive game is quite limited compared to D-Wade and he is worse defensively by a margin.

That's where you lose a lot of any credibility you may have.

Andrew32
01-05-2013, 06:41 PM
When is Wade going to start playing like it?

He is sacrificing raw stats for the sake of his team.
21 / 5 / 5 on 51% shooting is nothing to scoff at.

Put him on a different team or change his mentality to how Kobe thinks and I think he could still average 25 / 5 / 5 if not better.

Andrew32
01-05-2013, 06:46 PM
That's where you lose a lot of any credibility you may have.
I am actually 100% correct. :facepalm:
Don't question what I say if you don't know the facts.

Wade is a far more effective scorer then Harden in the mid-range area and around the basket.

Harden is better only at drawing FT's and 3pt shooting.

http://i50.tinypic.com/o0wbpi.jpg

Open up this picture and see for yourself.

I don't dislike Harden either btw. He is amazing. I am just not ready to put him over Wade yet.

sep11ie
01-05-2013, 06:50 PM
If you were to say Wade of 5 years ago I'd say ok and move on. Modern day Wade though...No.

Harden is THE ONLY real scoring option on Houston. Wade is quite possibly the 3rd best player on his team now. He doesn't see double teams or the other teams best defender anymore.

Andrew32
01-05-2013, 06:51 PM
Harden is THE ONLY real scoring option on Houston.
So?


Wade is quite possibly the 3rd best player on his team now.
He is clearly the 2nd best.


He doesn't see double teams or the other teams best defender anymore.
I watch many Heat games on live streams and Wade still gets consistent double teams.

Chronz
01-05-2013, 07:45 PM
He is sacrificing raw stats for the sake of his team.
Who said anything about raw stats? I think the team could use his return to form more than they could use his "sacrifices". LOL


21 / 5 / 5 on 51% shooting is nothing to scoff at.
Strawman argument. Nobdoy scoffed at anything other than your opinion that you have yet to clarify. Do you mean he will be better or that hes had the better year?
Heres a fun fact, Wade has a higher usage than Harden the difference is Harden actually makes better use of his possessions and has sustained his level of play for heavier minutes.



Put him on a different team or change his mentality to how Kobe thinks and I think he could still average 25 / 5 / 5 if not better.

Cool story but I dont believe you, the man is being preserved and still struggled staying healthy of late, imagine him this year without the security blanket that is Bron, it would look alot like 2008 IMO.


If your saying he will be the better playoff performer than I would agree, I dont want to believe his days as a superstar are done, but for the regular season there is no question who has been the superior performer.

Chronz
01-05-2013, 07:46 PM
I don't judge players purely by raw stats.
Wade is still better then Harden.

There is a thing called defense and Wade is a much better scorer everywhere on the court inside the 3pt line.

Harden's offensive game is quite limited compared to D-Wade and he is worse defensively by a margin.

Its a shame the 3pt line is such an effective weapon, and that Harden combines that spacing ability with the added ability to get to the line. Feel free to elaborate why we should ignore the 3pt line and superior slashing/playmaking/efficiency.

Verbal Christ
01-05-2013, 08:55 PM
hardens TS combined with his usage should really make most people be quiet. only perimeter player who combines a higher usage and TS% is durant.

Bruno
01-05-2013, 08:56 PM
I don't judge players purely by raw stats.
Wade is still better then Harden.

There is a thing called defense and Wade is a much better scorer everywhere on the court inside the 3pt line.

Harden's offensive game is quite limited compared to D-Wade and he is worse defensively by a margin.

just stop. posts like this make your provocative legitimate posts a lot less interesting. wade is having an off year, and he hasn't been better than Kobe or Harden; it happens. he's been better as of late though.

Andrew32
01-06-2013, 12:04 AM
just stop. posts like this make your provocative legitimate posts a lot less interesting. wade is having an off year, and he hasn't been better than Kobe or Harden; it happens. he's been better as of late though.
Don't tell me what opinions to have.
I don't mind if you feel differently but respect how I feel.

When the playoffs start and the refs swallow their whistles Harden will become significantly less effective.

When defenses tighten up Wade's much higher BBIQ and craftiness will allow him to be far more effective then Harden.

And as always Wade will remain the far superior defensive player.

Yes Harden statistically is having the better regular season.
I would never deny that.

However Wade is still clearly in my eyes the better player.

Also how is Wade having an off year? :facepalm:
Since when is 21 / 5 / 5 on 51% shooting not amazing?

The gap between Wade and Kobe is much smaller then you think... if it even exists.
Wade is giving up stats and resting more because its in the best interest of his team.

heyman321
01-06-2013, 12:07 AM
Don't tell me what opinions to have.
I don't mind if you feel differently but respect how I feel.

When the playoffs start and the refs swallow their whistles Harden will become significantly less effective.

When defenses tighten up Wade's much higher BBIQ and craftiness will allow him to be far more effective then Harden.

And as always Wade will remain the far superior defensive player.

Yes Harden statistically is having the better regular season.
I would never deny that.

However Wade is still clearly in my eyes the better player.

Also how is Wade having an off year? :facepalm:
Since when is 21 / 5 / 5 on 51% shooting not amazing?

The gap between Wade and Kobe is much smaller then you think... if it even exists.
Wade is giving up stats and resting more because its in the best interest of his team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFA5vSjvzGk

Andrew32
01-06-2013, 12:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFA5vSjvzGk
Quit trolling.

He didn't even get the call and Wade even at the height of his popularity never got the kind of pro-ref treatment guys like Kobe get.

DanG
01-06-2013, 12:45 PM
Harden is great but Wade and maybe Kobe are still better at the SG position.

lullz

ManRam
01-06-2013, 12:57 PM
There is literally no argument to be made that Wade has been better than Harden this year. It's straight up laughable to suggest that Wade has been better than Kobe.

mightybosstone
01-06-2013, 02:31 PM
Harden is better only at drawing FT's and 3pt shooting.

This is why your argument holds no water. You can't say Player X is a better scorer than Player Y unless you consider shooting and getting to the free throw line. That's kind of a huge part of scoring, and Harden is superior at both. That would be like saying Player X is a better defender than Player Y if you only consider help defense and don't pay any attention to man-to-man defense, rebounding, blocked shots or steals. Then clearly that player is not a better defender. And clearly Wade is not a better scorer than Harden.

ThaDubs
01-06-2013, 02:37 PM
Harden is great but Wade and maybe Kobe are still better at the SG position.

Maybe? :facepalm:

rocket
01-06-2013, 02:40 PM
Woopdy doo...Kobe's had 10 streak of over 30 (would be 12 now if he didn't sit the entire 4th vs Portland)

Durant and LeBron could easily have that streak over 35ppg if they had Harden's supporting cast

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

mightybosstone
01-06-2013, 02:42 PM
I will say this much for the Harden vs. Kobe argument... Despite Kobe putting up some of the best numbers of his career this season, it has not translated to team success for the Lakers. Meanwhile, Harden is only 23, joined the Rockets like 2 days before the start of the season and has the team at 20-14 with arguably inferior talent around him and a ton of team turmoil to deal with this season.

Statistically has Kobe been better? Yes. But you could make a case that Harden has been the more valuable player to his team, has made them a better basketball team and therefore could arguably be the better player.

Money_23
01-06-2013, 05:16 PM
Don't tell me what opinions to have.
I don't mind if you feel differently but respect how I feel.

When the playoffs start and the refs swallow their whistles Harden will become significantly less effective.

When defenses tighten up Wade's much higher BBIQ and craftiness will allow him to be far more effective then Harden.

And as always Wade will remain the far superior defensive player.

Yes Harden statistically is having the better regular season.
I would never deny that.

However Wade is still clearly in my eyes the better player.

Also how is Wade having an off year? :facepalm:
Since when is 21 / 5 / 5 on 51% shooting not amazing?

The gap between Wade and Kobe is much smaller then you think... if it even exists.
Wade is giving up stats and resting more because its in the best interest of his team.

:laugh2:

yeah not much difference between 21-5-5 and 31-5-5 with higher efficiency.

Money_23
01-06-2013, 05:21 PM
I will say this much for the Harden vs. Kobe argument... Despite Kobe putting up some of the best numbers of his career this season, it has not translated to team success for the Lakers. Meanwhile, Harden is only 23, joined the Rockets like 2 days before the start of training camp and has the team at 20-14 with arguably inferior talent around him and a ton of team turmoil to deal with this season.

Statistically has Kobe been better? Yes. But you could make a case that Harden has been the more valuable player to his team, has made them a better basketball team and therefore could arguably be the better player.

so now team success is considered in player vs player arguments?

Wolfman01
01-06-2013, 09:32 PM
James Harden was the real deal and the Rockets hit the jack pot when they went all in for the guy.

Saddletramp
01-06-2013, 10:41 PM
I will say this much for the Harden vs. Kobe argument... Despite Kobe putting up some of the best numbers of his career this season, it has not translated to team success for the Lakers. Meanwhile, Harden is only 23, joined the Rockets like 2 days before the start of training camp and has the team at 20-14 with arguably inferior talent around him and a ton of team turmoil to deal with this season.


Ummmmmm, sorry, MBT, but he was traded to the Rockets a few days before the start of the season (well after training camp/pre-season), making it that much more impressive.

mightybosstone
01-06-2013, 11:56 PM
Ummmmmm, sorry, MBT, but he was traded to the Rockets a few days before the start of the season (well after training camp/pre-season), making it that much more impressive.

I knew that. I was writing in a hurry and got confused. But what I meant was that he was traded like two days before the start of the season and missed training camp, but I accidentally combined those two thoughts together.

mightybosstone
01-06-2013, 11:57 PM
so now team success is considered in player vs player arguments?

Compare the talent on the Rockets and the talent on the Lakers. Wouldn't you say that Kobe has more help? And yet the Rockets have clearly been the superior team thus far in the season. That has to account for something.

Money_23
01-07-2013, 01:51 AM
Compare the talent on the Rockets and the talent on the Lakers. Wouldn't you say that Kobe has more help? And yet the Rockets have clearly been the superior team thus far in the season. That has to account for something.

yes for MVP chances since that relies on team success. But you are strictly talking who is better so far this season as an individual player, in which case no. Not to mention the type of plays either team runs, coaching style, teammates actually putting forth effort, etc. Those are all measure for team success, not individual prowess.

mightybosstone
01-07-2013, 01:55 AM
yes for MVP chances since that relies on team success. But you are strictly talking who is better so far this season as an individual player, in which case no.

I think Harden is the easier player to build around right now, because he makes players around him better and he's the superior distributor and arguably a better defender. Kobe is still the better overall scorer, but he requires far more shots to get his production and if he's not scoring well, he doesn't really help his team win in other ways. When Harden isn't shooting well, he can still get to the line and make plays for other guys. I don't see Kobe do that nearly as much as he did earlier in his career.

Jahari Kavi
01-07-2013, 02:03 AM
I think the Rockets are more talented than the Lakers.......I think a lot of teams are...

jam
01-07-2013, 02:12 AM
Harden is without question one of the top 10 players in the assoc. It would be difficult to name even 6 players who are clearly better:

-Durant
-Lebron
-Carmela
-CP3

Harden is in that second tier with Kobe, Dwight, DRose, Wade, among numerous others. I think Harden is having the best season outside of the top 4 mvp candidates.

Conclusion: Harden is one of the top 5 players in the nba today.

sammyvine
01-07-2013, 12:37 PM
Harden is without question one of the top 10 players in the assoc. It would be difficult to name even 6 players who are clearly better:

-Durant
-Lebron
-Carmela
-CP3

Harden is in that second tier with Kobe, Dwight, DRose, Wade, among numerous others. I think Harden is having the best season outside of the top 4 mvp candidates.

Conclusion: Harden is one of the top 5 players in the nba today.
d rose is 1st tier.

How is carmelo higher than d rose?

heyman321
01-07-2013, 12:46 PM
d rose is 1st tier.

How is carmelo higher than d rose?

Cause he has a torn ACL?

Hardaway Here
01-07-2013, 12:57 PM
Judge how DRose is once he is 100% and actually playing again. As of right now we can only hope he can still move the same way he did before the tear.

AIRMAR72
01-07-2013, 01:11 PM
Harden IS MY FAVORITE player to watch luv his game

Chronz
01-07-2013, 02:19 PM
Compare the talent on the Rockets and the talent on the Lakers. Wouldn't you say that Kobe has more help? And yet the Rockets have clearly been the superior team thus far in the season. That has to account for something.
Some blame should fall on the coach, not so much on Kobe. I mean what more can he do?