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View Full Version : The Coaching And The Talent



MickeyMgl
01-03-2013, 02:12 AM
I was reading quotes by Doug Collins, and thinking about how I've never been all that impressed with him as a coach, although he seems very competent. Nothing special, just a ham-n-egger guy who knows the basics. Nothing too innovative. Probably just a by-the-numbers guy.

Then I was thinking back to the success that Bernie Bickerstaff was having with this team a few weeks ago, and how some people seemed to dismiss it because he really wasn't installing anything special into the game plans.

I'm standing by my first impression, that this team from 1 through 5 (Nash-Bryant-Artest-Gasol-Howard), is as talented as any five-man unit in the league. Not necessarily more, but on par. I'm certain that we weren't mistaken about that. Add Hill for six players on this team that I believe in.

So it seems to me that what Bickerstaff was doing - which, in contrast to his predecessor and his successor, amounted to NOT OVERCOACHING - may have been what this team needed all along. Just organize the talent, and then let the talent "do what it do".

Brown made the mistake of installing an offensive system that
A) he did not know enough to coach himself,
B) took the ball out of the hands of an elite PG, and
C) moved his big men away from the basket to make room for backcuts.

D'Antoni is trying to implement an offense that
A) has his "mature" squad running up-tempo,
B) emphasizes perimeter shooting more than shots in the paint, thereby muting the team's talented bigs, and
C) makes no room for arguably his best post player to actually be in the post.

I wish they had a coach that just let these players do what they do best. Each of them. They SHOULD be compatible. Steve Nash is the best P'n'R ballhandler in the league. Dwight Howard is the best P'n'R man in the league. Pau Gasol is at least the best on his team (and maybe the league) at passing out of the post, so if you're going to have him as a passer and playmaker, it makes sense to have him down there where he himself is also a threat.

It just seems so much simpler than how the high-priced coaches the Lakers have hired the last couple of years have been making it look. Maybe not overcoaching, and having faith in the talent, was Bickerstaff's genius.

PraiseJesus
01-03-2013, 02:39 AM
I agree.

I think the rally cry from Laker fans should be,

"do what it do"

lol

lakersincebirth
01-03-2013, 03:08 AM
Do yer sheet!

Laker fan in OZ
01-03-2013, 03:10 AM
I agree 100%! Too bad we're stuck with D'Antoni now though

midwestlaker75
01-03-2013, 03:12 AM
I agree, I would have been comfortable with Bickerstaff finishing the season...And do a thorough coaching search over the summer. To find a coach that could best work wih the talent and it would have given the F/O a chance to fix the bench and try to achieve the best mix of age and youth.

jsthornton7
01-03-2013, 03:28 AM
Been saying this since Mike Brown was the coach.

Pau needs to be in the low post and Dwight and Nash need to be doing pick and rolls the entire game.

Kobe and Artest occupy the wings to spread the floor.

I don't know why this is so difficult for the coaching staff to figure out.

LakerPride
01-03-2013, 05:05 AM
PNR was muted with teams packing the lane... they want the Lakers to beat them with their perimeter shots. plus kobe is sometimes selfish... he is still very fond of isolation plays. and dwight sucks at the post

LakerPride
01-03-2013, 05:07 AM
sometimes i wish Bynum is still a Laker and healthy

kobe4thewinbang
01-03-2013, 05:25 AM
It's a sad time to be a Lakers fan. They're not winning jack this season. Barely survive the 1st round, maybe. They're playing against themselves at this point. D'antoni is a headless chicken when the damn solution is right on the wall written in front of him. Injuries only make it worse, and the players are so confused right now and fricking weary.

jsthornton7
01-03-2013, 06:15 AM
Don't worry, I'm sure Kobe will play another 40-45 minutes vs. the Clippers.

Sssmush
01-03-2013, 06:23 AM
I was reading quotes by Doug Collins, and thinking about how I've never been all that impressed with him as a coach, although he seems very competent. Nothing special, just a ham-n-egger guy who knows the basics. Nothing too innovative. Probably just a by-the-numbers guy.

Then I was thinking back to the success that Bernie Bickerstaff was having with this team a few weeks ago, and how some people seemed to dismiss it because he really wasn't installing anything special into the game plans.

I'm standing by my first impression, that this team from 1 through 5 (Nash-Bryant-Artest-Gasol-Howard), is as talented as any five-man unit in the league. Not necessarily more, but on par. I'm certain that we weren't mistaken about that. Add Hill for six players on this team that I believe in.

So it seems to me that what Bickerstaff was doing - which, in contrast to his predecessor and his successor, amounted to NOT OVERCOACHING - may have been what this team needed all along. Just organize the talent, and then let the talent "do what it do".

Brown made the mistake of installing an offensive system that
A) he did not know enough to coach himself,
B) took the ball out of the hands of an elite PG, and
C) moved his big men away from the basket to make room for backcuts.

D'Antoni is trying to implement an offense that
A) has his "mature" squad running up-tempo,
B) emphasizes perimeter shooting more than shots in the paint, thereby muting the team's talented bigs, and
C) makes no room for arguably his best post player to actually be in the post.

I wish they had a coach that just let these players do what they do best. Each of them. They SHOULD be compatible. Steve Nash is the best P'n'R ballhandler in the league. Dwight Howard is the best P'n'R man in the league. Pau Gasol is at least the best on his team (and maybe the league) at passing out of the post, so if you're going to have him as a passer and playmaker, it makes sense to have him down there where he himself is also a threat.



I gotta disagree with almost everything.

For one, we should trash the new meme about the Lakers being "too old to run" and that D'Antoni's offense is just too upbeat or athletic for them.

That's horse**** for a number of reasons. Clearly the team seems to be getting into good shape, Artest is leaner and is playing much better. Kobe is in great shape and playing great.

Maybe Pau might be suffering a bit getting up and down the court...??? Do we wanna say that??? Not sure. But outside of Pau, nobody is having a problem with it, certainly not Nash, whom Kobe's comments might've been needling just a bit. Nash is 39 but he seems very spry and has no problem getting up and down the court. He could probably run triathlons if he wanted to.

It is befuddling why this team is playing so poorly, and what's interesting is that at some point it's going to pop. The team is going to pop and start winning, at some point they will figure out who/what the problem was all along and then it will be fixed.

What I see is that last year they were out of shape all year in a short season, and had no cohesion under MB. Then they started out this year after a very iffy camp (0-8 exhibition) and still looking out of shape, very low intensity, looking like they're used to shuffling around in a triangle system or something and not liking that they have to straight up play; penetrate, pick and roll, cut and pass, rebound.

They've seemed, and still seem, very 3/4 speed at times, and for whatever crazy reason it still seems like this team just isn't in tip top physical shape just quite yet.

so yeah, the LAST thing I want to hear people ranting about is how mean ol' coach Dantoni is making the Lakers run too much and that they are too old for it.

That's just ridiculous. Maybe it might not be to Pau's liking as much, since he is more of a tennis player lateral movement type big guy rather than a sprint up and down type of player, but yeah. Whatever. Let them run, let them play, let the chips fall and let's see how this team turns out. This is not going to be a 70 win season so everybody just stop complaining and panicking and lets see what happens.

And the last thing we need is some mediocre "ham and eggs" coach. I mean jeebus if it was that simple we could just hire PJ Carlesimo or any of two dozen loud mouthed idiots to run up and down the side lines to yell "SET THE PICK! SET THE PICK!!" Or "MAKE THE PASS!! MAKE THE PASS!!" all game while the players just look at him like wtf is this jerk

strokeman
01-03-2013, 08:59 AM
Mike No D'Antoni is a BUM!
this will be his last coaching job in the NBA, he cant adjust his system to maximize his roster talent.
live by the 3 you die by the 3, Defense wins championships and Jim Buss should have remember those 2 things when he was looking for a coach.

Decimotox
01-03-2013, 05:02 PM
D'Antoni is too stubborn to adapt his system. That's why he fails.

It's Maaaaaagic
01-03-2013, 06:22 PM
Been saying this since Mike Brown was the coach.

Pau needs to be in the low post and Dwight and Nash need to be doing pick and rolls the entire game.

Kobe and Artest occupy the wings to spread the floor.

I don't know why this is so difficult for the coaching staff to figure out.

exactly

Lakersfan2483
01-03-2013, 09:39 PM
I was reading quotes by Doug Collins, and thinking about how I've never been all that impressed with him as a coach, although he seems very competent. Nothing special, just a ham-n-egger guy who knows the basics. Nothing too innovative. Probably just a by-the-numbers guy.

Then I was thinking back to the success that Bernie Bickerstaff was having with this team a few weeks ago, and how some people seemed to dismiss it because he really wasn't installing anything special into the game plans.

I'm standing by my first impression, that this team from 1 through 5 (Nash-Bryant-Artest-Gasol-Howard), is as talented as any five-man unit in the league. Not necessarily more, but on par. I'm certain that we weren't mistaken about that. Add Hill for six players on this team that I believe in.

So it seems to me that what Bickerstaff was doing - which, in contrast to his predecessor and his successor, amounted to NOT OVERCOACHING - may have been what this team needed all along. Just organize the talent, and then let the talent "do what it do".

Brown made the mistake of installing an offensive system that
A) he did not know enough to coach himself,
B) took the ball out of the hands of an elite PG, and
C) moved his big men away from the basket to make room for backcuts.

D'Antoni is trying to implement an offense that
A) has his "mature" squad running up-tempo,
B) emphasizes perimeter shooting more than shots in the paint, thereby muting the team's talented bigs, and
C) makes no room for arguably his best post player to actually be in the post.

I wish they had a coach that just let these players do what they do best. Each of them. They SHOULD be compatible. Steve Nash is the best P'n'R ballhandler in the league. Dwight Howard is the best P'n'R man in the league. Pau Gasol is at least the best on his team (and maybe the league) at passing out of the post, so if you're going to have him as a passer and playmaker, it makes sense to have him down there where he himself is also a threat.

It just seems so much simpler than how the high-priced coaches the Lakers have hired the last couple of years have been making it look. Maybe not overcoaching, and having faith in the talent, was Bickerstaff's genius.

:clap::clap: Glad you made this thread. I remember I made a thread about Bernie a few weeks ago in terms of being the best coach for the team out of all 3 coaches and that is because he just got out of the way and let the players play to their strengths. I was dissapointed in the hiring of D'antoni as I wanted Phil or Jerry Sloan.

midwestlaker75
01-03-2013, 10:29 PM
Mike D'Antoni is nothing but the re-incarnation of Paul Westhead, For you younger fans..He was the coach from 79' until early part of the 81' season. Westhead had the same style, run-n-gun and not much defense style that D'Antoni preaches today. He was fired even though he had won a championship in 80' with Kareem and Magic. Reason: Unwilling to adapt, Thus causing an ego clash with the players; It got so bad that Magic made rumblings about being traded.

Enter Pat Riley; Pat Riley was able to do what Westhead couldn't....Mesh the run-n-gun along with play defense. And he stressed it, We have all heard about the 4 and 5 hour practices of Coach Riley. And hence 4 championships were the result. The point is...D'Antoni must become more like Riley and less like Westhead if he wants to keep this job and be successful at it. If he doesn't he won't survive!

New Power House
01-03-2013, 10:59 PM
He is already dead! His coaching style is more for college league than for NBA. Jimbaco is our problem,because he is blinded by his hate towards Phil' success! He is the biggest obstacle for the Lakers. Howard has to stand strong and demand Phil. Then maybe this team will be champion again. Nash is just too old to be the engine to run this train!

elChavo
01-03-2013, 11:31 PM
Players need to do what Magic and his squad did when Dunleavy was brought in ... Give back D'Antoni's playbook, or lack off, and develop a handful of plays. Let D'Antoni know to sit back and take credit for what he is unable to do.
Chick Hern said it best. "Live by the jump shot and die by the jump shot". Thats exactly whats happening with this team. Gasol shouldnt be getting the ball on the 3 point line or on the high post. We are talking about a guy who took DH to school in the finals a few years back. DH may not be 100%, but he does need more touches below. Kobe also needs to be one of the players starting the offense in the low post.
As for those who say the offense is not the problem, remember that long shots make for long rebounds, making it harder for the defense to get back in position.
D'Antoni shouldnt be fully to blame, as these problems were their while Brown was their. However, he is definitely not the answer. I love the show time era Lakers and I'd love to see it again. This however is not show time B-ball.

MickeyMgl
01-04-2013, 02:08 AM
Mike D'Antoni is nothing but the re-incarnation of Paul Westhead, For you younger fans..He was the coach from 79' until early part of the 81' season. Westhead had the same style, run-n-gun and not much defense style that D'Antoni preaches today. He was fired even though he had won a championship in 80' with Kareem and Magic. Reason: Unwilling to adapt, Thus causing an ego clash with the players; It got so bad that Magic made rumblings about being traded.

Enter Pat Riley; Pat Riley was able to do what Westhead couldn't....Mesh the run-n-gun along with play defense. And he stressed it, We have all heard about the 4 and 5 hour practices of Coach Riley. And hence 4 championships were the result. The point is...D'Antoni must become more like Riley and less like Westhead if he wants to keep this job and be successful at it. If he doesn't he won't survive!

Actually, Westhead was fired from the Lakers for not running 'n' gunning ENOUGH. He was wanting to slow it down and pound it in to Kareem on every possession. Magic got frustrated, asked to be traded, and Dr. Jerry fired Westhead instead.

Years LATER, with LMU, he took a completely different approach, running on every possession. Indeed, "7 seconds" would've been a slow possession for them.

MickeyMgl
01-04-2013, 02:23 AM
He is already dead! His coaching style is more for college league than for NBA. Jimbaco is our problem,because he is blinded by his hate towards Phil' success! He is the biggest obstacle for the Lakers. Howard has to stand strong and demand Phil. Then maybe this team will be champion again. Nash is just too old to be the engine to run this train!

It can't be all about Phil. There are other capable coaches out there. However, I do think that, directly or indirectly, it is all about Jimbo Buss. I do believe that we are seeing the slow unraveling of the franchise. It may take years before we see the full impact and negative effects of his unnecessary involvement - I wouldn't be surprised to see the family sell control of the team within a few years of Jerry passing on.

Jerry wedged a new position for Jim - Vice President of Basketball Operations - between the team and Jeannie, who has the only position ANY owner should have, Vice President of Business Operations. Basically, Dr Jerry, by declaration, put Jim at the head of the organization's "basketball people". Horrible decision, as evidenced by an already long, long list of gaffs in his relatively short time on the job.

For the most part, Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson have managed to delay the effects of Jim Buss's incompetence and power, but eventually, Kobe will retire. Eventually, Kupchak will step down. He was a part of the Showtime era. He mentored under Jerry West. I wonder who HIS successor will be, given that the scouting department is dominated by spoiled rich kids and their bartenders.

That's the path this is heading. If I were objective - not a Laker fan - and I was advising Dwight Howard, I'd tell him to take as much as he can get elsewhere.

8kobe24
01-04-2013, 02:25 AM
Obviously, the D'antoni hiring was just so Jim Buss can go embarrass PJ. Who in the right mind would say D'antoni is the right coach for this team..I don't even think Jim is that dumb, but he did it to fhucc with PJ. And now PJ is marrying his sister...typical LA drama.

KillaInstinct24
01-04-2013, 02:34 AM
mike will be fired at the end of this season

lakersfan01
01-04-2013, 04:25 AM
It could work if we moved Gasol for the right package. We desperately need an infusion of youth and athleticism.

lakersfan01
01-04-2013, 04:27 AM
I wonder how many coaches they'll go through before they realize Gasol needs to be moved for assets that mesh with our big 3.