PDA

View Full Version : ring or no ring where would you rank steve nash



eddyv7
12-28-2012, 11:53 PM
ring or no ring where would you rank steve nash in the greatest point guards of all time list and which current young point guard has the ability to pass him in terms of production
Career
14.4ppg 8.6apg 3.0 rpg

ShadyOne
12-29-2012, 12:12 AM
One of the most efficient PG's of all time, maybe THE most efficient. Look at his %s, ridiculous. Nearly 50% from the field, 42% from 3, 90% from the line. And his impact on an offense is even more than his excellent numbers would suggest.

Regardless of not winning a ring, and being a terrible defender, his name would have to be on any elite list.

LTBaByyy
12-29-2012, 12:18 AM
Johnson
Stockton
Kidd
Thomas
Nash
Payton

nirvana235
12-29-2012, 12:19 AM
Greatest Canadian named Steve Nash ever.

ManRam
12-29-2012, 12:23 AM
Him winning a ring with LA isn't going to change how I view him all that much. Without looking into it too much, he's behind Magic, Oscar, Stockton by a good margin. I don't think there's a whole lot seperating him from Isiah, Cousy, Payton or Frazier either really. He's probably ahead of Kidd too.

In my top 7. Don't feel like sorting it out right now though.

Raye
12-29-2012, 12:27 AM
Top 10 pg easy. Probably top 5. With players like him and Kobe unless they commit murder or something their legacy can only improve

Mr_Jones
12-29-2012, 12:34 AM
I have a soft spot for Steve Nash. Glad he's on the Lakers now, but I was able to enjoy watching him on both, Dallas and Phoenix. And when I say "soft spot", I mean "hard spot".. If you know what I mean.

AnthonyTyrael
12-29-2012, 12:34 AM
Top 5-7 but he had some rough years, that's why he's below others who had a phenomenol career in the history of this league.

It's not like he played prime all the time throughout his career but dude can connect on for some more years. Also his MVP throphies...you can argue about one of them. Is he on pace of winning a championship? We'll see, he has chance but so have others too.

CB29
12-29-2012, 12:36 AM
Top 6 in modern era.

Magic, Stockton, Kidd, Zeke, Glove, Nash

whitemamba33
12-29-2012, 02:42 AM
Great player - but he's famous for running an offense that is famous for not winning championships.

tapajafri
12-29-2012, 02:44 AM
Rings mean absolutely nothing when it comes to where a player ranks all time. Nash is still a top 7 pg in the history of the game, whether he wins a ring or not.


Stockton is still a top 3 pg. Barkley is one of the best PF's ever. So is Malone. You could even throw Chris Webber in there. They all have no rings, but they're still some of the best players to ever play. Same goes for Nash.

b@llhog24
12-29-2012, 04:38 AM
Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Frazier
Isiah/Nash/Payton/Kidd

there's not a large serparation there. Personally I'd take him at 5th though.

rocky4104
12-29-2012, 04:57 AM
top 5

Sly Guy
12-29-2012, 05:06 AM
Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Frazier
Isiah/Nash/Payton/Kidd

there's not a large serparation there. Personally I'd take him at 5th though.

agreed.

Bruno
12-29-2012, 07:17 AM
if LA were to hypothetically win the title (tall order) and nash produced at a high level, and was vital to the teams success, I don't see how that wouldn't boost his career perception. i dont care about his age- what does the production look like, and how vital was he to team success?

nash is one of the greatest shooters in league history, and one of the greatest assist men at his position. he has a fine argument for top five PG in league history. with a ring on high production i'd say he'd practically be a lock.

JPS
12-29-2012, 11:04 AM
Top 7

Magic
Big O ( if he is considered a pg)
Zeke
Frasier
Kidd
Stockton
Nash

I dont understand Stockton over Zeke on this board. Zeke was better. Just because he sucked as an executive and is not a nice guy really hurts him here it seems. Or you never saw them both play and are looking at stats. I am not trying to take away from Stockton I think he was awesome and could be 4-6 on my list. I just think Thomas gets overlooked here

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 11:14 AM
His career averages are a little misleading because he rode the bench for a few seasons before coming into his own.


I think it is clear that Magic, the Big O and Stockton take up the top three spots for the point guard position (in whatever order you care to put them in). Nash has a legit case for number 4, though are the top three the race gets pretty close between a number of players, so see Nash slip down as low as 7 or 8 wouldn't be crazy. He is certainly one of the ten best PGs of all time, and arguably top 5. AS for over all, I'm not sure. I wouldn't say top 20, because the list is dominated by centers and power forwards, but I would certainly have him in my top 50.

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 11:16 AM
Top 7

Magic
Big O ( if he is considered a pg)
Zeke
Frasier
Kidd
Stockton
Nash

I dont understand Stockton over Zeke on this board. Zeke was better. Just because he sucked as an executive and is not a nice guy really hurts him here it seems. Or you never saw them both play and are looking at stats. I am not trying to take away from Stockton I think he was awesome and could be 4-6 on my list. I just think Thomas gets overlooked here

You have Stockton ranked awfully low considering he has the career record for assists and steals, one of the highest FG% and TS% for a PG and posted some of the highest assists-per game and steals-per game averages of all time.

I mean, even the Dream Team knew enough to put Stockton ahead of Thomas.

ManRam
12-29-2012, 11:23 AM
Top 7

Magic
Big O ( if he is considered a pg)
Zeke
Frasier
Kidd
Stockton
Nash

I dont understand Stockton over Zeke on this board. Zeke was better. Just because he sucked as an executive and is not a nice guy really hurts him here it seems. Or you never saw them both play and are looking at stats. I am not trying to take away from Stockton I think he was awesome and could be 4-6 on my list. I just think Thomas gets overlooked here

PLEASE tell me how Zeke was better. Please.

EDIT: I like b@llhog's list a lot

RLundi
12-29-2012, 11:25 AM
Top 7

Magic
Big O ( if he is considered a pg)
Zeke
Frasier
Kidd
Stockton
Nash

I dont understand Stockton over Zeke on this board. Zeke was better. Just because he sucked as an executive and is not a nice guy really hurts him here it seems. Or you never saw them both play and are looking at stats. I am not trying to take away from Stockton I think he was awesome and could be 4-6 on my list. I just think Thomas gets overlooked here

Gary Payton?

Hellcrooner
12-29-2012, 12:07 PM
top10 all time.

magic / Stockton / Oscar are clearly ahead of him then it becomes blurry you can rank Nash/ Thomas/Cousy/Kidd / frazier/ Payton/Monroe in any order.

RyanStorm
12-29-2012, 12:18 PM
As a life long Stockton fan, I would put Nash probably the only PG who has had such a great game, and rank him under my Stockton as far as life long careers go..so far.(I am talking of active PG's)

JPS
12-29-2012, 01:06 PM
They played at the same time. Every year from 84-92ish Thomas was considered the better player and it was not really even a question. I am not looking up stats they played the same position differently. As far as Stockton being on the Dream team I think we all know that was politics with MJ.

Stockton is the Kobe of point guards he was always a very good to great player but never really top in the league. due to his longevity his overall stats are greater than Thomas. Thomas was the unquestioned leader of 2 championship teams. Stockton was Malons robin for 20 years.

I am not saying Stockton was not one of the greatest. I am saying Thomas was better.

Pluvious
12-29-2012, 01:23 PM
They played at the same time. Every year from 84-92ish Thomas was considered the better player and it was not really even a question. I am not looking up stats they played the same position differently. As far as Stockton being on the Dream team I think we all know that was politics with MJ.

Stockton is the Kobe of point guards he was always a very good to great player but never really top in the league. due to his longevity his overall stats are greater than Thomas. Thomas was the unquestioned leader of 2 championship teams. Stockton was Malons robin for 20 years.

I am not saying Stockton was not one of the greatest. I am saying Thomas was better.

Guys who focused mostly on facilitating are often under appreciated. Its just not seen as valuable by casual fans or even regular fans. I was like you...I watched back then and thought Thomas was a much better player. And in some ways he was.

But you have to look at what the player does for the team as a whole...not just individually. It goes the same for defensive specialists. They are almost always severely undervalued...unless they make a real name for themselves as a defender (like Rodman or Ben Wallace or Bowen).

ManRam
12-29-2012, 01:32 PM
They played at the same time. Every year from 84-92ish Thomas was considered the better player and it was not really even a question. I am not looking up stats they played the same position differently. As far as Stockton being on the Dream team I think we all know that was politics with MJ.

Stockton is the Kobe of point guards he was always a very good to great player but never really top in the league. due to his longevity his overall stats are greater than Thomas. Thomas was the unquestioned leader of 2 championship teams. Stockton was Malons robin for 20 years.

I am not saying Stockton was not one of the greatest. I am saying Thomas was better.

Their careers didn't overlap all that much. And either way, I don't buy that. And he might have been "Malone's Robin", but Zeke had multiple all-stars and Hall-of-Famers on his teams. That's no different. In fact, I'd rather have 3 other Hall-of-Famers than Malone.

Stockton made 11 All-NBA teams. Isiah made 5. Stockton made 5 All-Defense teams. Isiah made none.

In terms of public perception, that leads me to believe that the public thought more highly of Stockton.

Throw in the fact he was a FAR better defender and a MUCH more efficient and better scorer, well, I think it's no contest. Isiah maybe is regarded as a better passing, but even that's a misconception.

Stockton's career AST%: 50.2%
Isiah's career AST%: 37.4%

Stockton's career Assist/36: 11.9
Isiah's career Assist/36: 9.2

Isiah literally did nothing better than Stockton. The ONLY trump card he has is his Finals MVP and two rings. I don't think those magically make him a better player, when there really was nothing he was better at Stockton at. Stockton put up more impressive playoff numbers as well.

Pluvious
12-29-2012, 01:46 PM
Their careers didn't overlap all that much. And either way, I don't buy that. And he might have been "Malone's Robin", but Zeke had multiple all-stars and Hall-of-Famers on his teams. That's no different. In fact, I'd rather have 3 other Hall-of-Famers than Malone.

Stockton made 11 All-NBA teams. Isiah made 5. Stockton made 5 All-Defense teams. Isiah made none.

In terms of public perception, that leads me to believe that the public thought more highly of Stockton.

Throw in the fact he was a FAR better defender and a MUCH more efficient and better scorer, well, I think it's no contest. Isiah maybe is regarded as a better passing, but even that's a misconception.

Stockton's career AST%: 50.2%
Isiah's career AST%: 37.4%

Stockton's career Assist/36: 11.9
Isiah's career Assist/36: 9.2

Isiah literally did nothing better than Stockton. The ONLY trump card he has is his Finals MVP and two rings. I don't think those magically make him a better player, when there really was nothing he was better at Stockton at. Stockton put up more impressive playoff numbers as well.

Isiah was a very explosive and tenacious scorer. He could take over games with that. Stockton could not.

ManRam
12-29-2012, 01:56 PM
Isiah was a very explosive and tenacious scorer. He could take over games with that. Stockton could not.

Stockton could. Probably not as well, but he could. Chalk that up as the one thing he could do better, I guess.

Still, I'm taking the 51.5/38.4/82.6 shooter over the 45.2/29.0/75.9 shooter any day. I'm taking the 60.8 TS% and the 54.6 eFG% (both absolutely all-time elite numbers) over the 51.6 and 46.5 (really, really bad). I'll admit that a lot of that has to do with their respective team's dependence on their scoring, but that's too huge of a discrepancy.

Zeke could shoot you out of as many games as he'd shoot you in.

Stockton was not a score first player, but he was deadly efficient. Kind of like Paul and Nash. They can take games without trying to score every play.


Stockton's longevity is another factor here. Zeke fell off bad. By the time he was 32 he was well below average.

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 02:21 PM
They played at the same time. Every year from 84-92ish Thomas was considered the better player and it was not really even a question. I am not looking up stats they played the same position differently. As far as Stockton being on the Dream team I think we all know that was politics with MJ.

Stockton is the Kobe of point guards he was always a very good to great player but never really top in the league. due to his longevity his overall stats are greater than Thomas. Thomas was the unquestioned leader of 2 championship teams. Stockton was Malons robin for 20 years.

I am not saying Stockton was not one of the greatest. I am saying Thomas was better.


Firstly, Stockton was not "Robin" to Malone's Batman. It was more like Superman and the Green Latern teaming up. But let us say that Stockton was "Robin" to Malone. Had Thomas played alongside Malone his entire career he also would have been "Robin" to Malone. Just because Stockton played with a better power forward than Thomas ever had, doesn't mean Stockton is inferior. Dumars also made the All-NBA third team and defensive teams ahead of Thomas, so perhaps, it would seem, many see Thomas as playing "Robin" to Dumars.

Secondly, you say from 84-92 Thomas was considered better than Stockton. I will agree for the first three seasons of Stockton's career, Thomas was generally considered the better PG. Stockton was coming off the bench at that time and Thomas was in his prime. That was from 85-87. After 87 Stockton was considered by many to be a better PG. You want proof? In 88 Stockton was named to the All-NBA second team, Thomas did not make either All-NBA team. The following season he made the All-NBA second team ahead of Thomas again, and made the All-Defensive second team ahead of Thomas. In 1990 Stockton made his third straight All-NBA second team, Thomas, for those three years did not make any All-NBA teams. In 1991 Stockton and Dumars both made the All-NBA third team and All-Defensvie second team, Thomas failed to make it either. Again, Thomas is Robin to Dumars, and Stockton is ranked ahead of Thomas. And in 1992, the final year of the era you say Stockton was considered inferior to Thomas, Stockton again made the All-NBA second team and the All-Defensive team, while Thomas failed again to make either. That season saw Rodman make the All-NBA third teama and all defensive first team, so again, Thomas is playing Robin to one of his own teammates. So yes, ther IS a question about it. And I have clearly demonstrate that Thomas was NOT seen by many as being better than Stockton. Once Stockton was inserted into the starting line-up, Thomas never got an All-NBA team appearance for the rest of his career.

You are also quite dismissive of Stockton's longevity, suggesting that Stockton only has higher career totals because he played longer. Firstly, that is mistaken, by the end of his 13th season Stockton had amassed more career assists than had Thomas in his entire 13-year career, so even had Stockton only played 13 season, he'd still have more career assists and steals than Thomas. But the point of this issue is that Stockton DID play for so long, which Thomas did not. Stockton's longevity is part of the reason why he is better than Thomas. Thomas played his best basketball at 23, and after that began to decline, quite shraply at the age of 30! Stockton on the other hand, maintained a high level until the age of 32, and only then SLOWLY began to decline, maintaining a 10+ assistper36 until the age of 40! where as Thomas failed to do that ever season after the ripe age of 25!

Then there is the question of shooting. Stockton was CLEARLY the better shooter: .515 FG% on his career, to Thomas's, .452, .384 3PT%, to Thomas's .290, .826 FT% to Thomas's .759 and a .608 TS% to Thomas's .516. And turnovers? Thomas averaged 3.8 turnovers a game to Stockton's 2.8, while it might be important to note that Stockton average more assists per game than did Thomas (10.5 per game to 9.3). Therefore, Stockton's assist-to-turnover ratio was far better than Thomas's.

And steals... Stockton wins that, 2.2 per game to Thomas's 1.9. Pretty impressive on Stockton's part considering he did it with 5 fewer minutes per game.

So what did Thomas do better than Stockton? Nothing. Did he score more points? Yes, because he SHOT more, not because he was a better shooter. Thomas got 1.18 points per shot. Stockton got 1.44. Stockton score more career poitns with fewer career FGA. So yeah... Thomas isn't even a better scorer than Stockton.

So what did Thomas do that Stockton didn't? Win two championships. Yes. But championships are a team effort. Stockton had Malone and Hornacek to work with, Thomas had; Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, Salley, Edwards, Mahorn, Johnson and Aguire. I wonder who had the better cast?

Thomas's championships are the result of an amazing team effort. And don't say that Thomas won them as "the man". He won one Finals MVP, Dumars won the other one, and both seasons they won Dumars made the All-NBA Defensive team ahead of Thomas, while also making the All-NBA team ahead of Thomas, while Rodman won DPOY award during the second title run.



So yeah, I've completely debunked any semblence of an arguement you present. You are wrong on so many levels. And your statement that you are just not going to look at stats becasue they played the same position differently frankly comes across as an admission that you really have no arguement to support yourself.

So, if Thomas was unquestionable considered better by almost everybody until 1992, why did Thomas not make any All-NBA teams after 1987, while Stockton made an AllNBA team every eyar from 1988 until well past Thomas's retirement?

ManRam
12-29-2012, 02:32 PM
I get why watching Zeke would lead you to believe he was a better player than he actually was, because he would get hot from time to time and take over a game, but I really don't think that besides that occasional outburst there was anything he did better than Stockton. But hey, this is coming from a guy who thinks Zeke is one of the single most overrated players in the history of the NBA.

Him vs. Nash is close, however. I am inclined to give the slight edge to Nash though, even without rings.

As Bruno said (I think), winning a ring with LAL as a clear and obvious contributor would help his legacy. I'd take him over Zeke right now, no contest. But a ring would make it, perhaps, not even a debate.

JPS
12-29-2012, 04:51 PM
I was not a Zeke fan or a Stockton fan, I am a Sixer fan. I have no horse in this race. My favorite Sixer PG ever is Mo Cheeks (who was Stockton lite without the 3 point shot >>>>>>> AI (who some compare to Thomas). Simply being a basket ball fan during that era. It could be a east coast bias? I am sure I saw more of Thomas than of Stockton, but again always felt that Thomas was the better of the two.

This is really not a dis of Stockton it is the guy I think is 3rd vs the guy I think is 4-6th. I just feel like Zeke gets sold short around here for what he was to the NBA during his era.

Tony_Starks
12-29-2012, 04:56 PM
Magic, Stockton, Big O, Kidd, Nash........

beliges
12-29-2012, 04:57 PM
Nash I would.say is also arguably the greatest shooter of all time. Tremendous talent given.that his athleticism was always non-existent. He relies on skill and intelligence as well as natural ability and is still.one of the.top.PGs in.the game at age 39. However, his all time ranking will always take into.consideration the fact he has always been a.defensive liability.

HowFit
12-29-2012, 05:10 PM
Top 10...

Chronz
12-29-2012, 05:23 PM
Top 7

Magic
Big O ( if he is considered a pg)
Zeke
Frasier
Kidd
Stockton
Nash

I dont understand Stockton over Zeke on this board. Zeke was better. Just because he sucked as an executive and is not a nice guy really hurts him here it seems. Or you never saw them both play and are looking at stats. I am not trying to take away from Stockton I think he was awesome and could be 4-6 on my list. I just think Thomas gets overlooked here
Agreed, I think hes a polarizing player, I think he gets overrated when people talk about him in the sense of beating Magic/Bird/MJ as if hes on their plane when winning, but I now feel people underrate him when they put Stockton on that pedestal. His longevity makes it an argument but make no mistake, Stockton was never at any point in his career the superior player.

ManRam
12-29-2012, 05:39 PM
I was not a Zeke fan or a Stockton fan, I am a Sixer fan. I have no horse in this race. My favorite Sixer PG ever is Mo Cheeks (who was Stockton lite without the 3 point shot >>>>>>> AI (who some compare to Thomas). Simply being a basket ball fan during that era. It could be a east coast bias? I am sure I saw more of Thomas than of Stockton, but again always felt that Thomas was the better of the two.

This is really not a dis of Stockton it is the guy I think is 3rd vs the guy I think is 4-6th. I just feel like Zeke gets sold short around here for what he was to the NBA during his era.

Understood. And there are a lot of people whose opinions I respect (more so than mine) that vehemently feel Zeke was the better player. So maybe I shouldn't be so strong in my convictions....but I am.

I'm even a guy who thinks the idea that "true" or "pass-first" PGs are so incredibly valuable...which is kinda what Stockton was. I just loved his game, thought he always was making the right decisions and was the absolute best floor general I had ever seen. He never made bad decisions...and in Zeke I saw a guy who occasionally teetered out of control and made a lot of bad decisions. Clearly Zeke was a "winner", though...so maybe this feeling of mine is off-base too.

I don't think I'll ever be able to rank Nash over Stockton.

Everymanalion
12-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Top 5 PG all time, court vision is unmatched.

Dnovakovic099
12-29-2012, 05:42 PM
Agreed, I think hes a polarizing player, I think he gets overrated when people talk about him in the sense of beating Magic/Bird/MJ as if hes on their plane when winning, but I now feel people underrate him when they put Stockton on that pedestal. His longevity makes it an argument but make no mistake, Stockton was never at any point in his career the superior player.

I am not saying Stockton is better because I did not watch either play in their primes, but all I hear from people who say Thomas is better is Thomas is the superior player!!!! While there has been an overwhelming amount of evidence presented as to why Stockton is better. Also, I feel like people overrate rings. Does MJ even win 3 rings without Pippen/Rodman/Phil and a great supporting cast. I feel like the only times players should be praised with for having rings is if they won when they shouldn't have, and should be put down if they lose when they are suppose to win. I bring this up, ofcourse, because Thomas has two rings.

Dnovakovic099
12-29-2012, 05:46 PM
On topic, as I said in my other comment I haven't watched the greats so I cannot rank Nash. However, one thing I have noticed is that he isn't as bad of a defender as people make him seem out to be. Well, at least that is what is seems like in the few Laker's games I have watched. I did not pay much attention to Nash's defense on the Suns.

Everymanalion
12-29-2012, 05:48 PM
I feel he was stifled by the times, just like Stockton getting robbed by Jordan, Kobe and Shaq robbed Nash:(

Chronz
12-29-2012, 05:56 PM
I am not saying Stockton is better because I did not watch either play in their primes, but all I hear from people who say Thomas is better is Thomas is the superior player!!!! While there has been an overwhelming amount of evidence presented as to why Stockton is better. Also, I feel like people overrate rings. Does MJ even win 3 rings without Pippen/Rodman/Phil and a great supporting cast. I feel like the only times players should be praised with for having rings is if they won when they shouldn't have, and should be put down if they lose when they are suppose to win. I bring this up, ofcourse, because Thomas has two rings.

No doubt, I just wonder about the media bias when it comes to Zeke vs Stockton. Zeke stopped making All-NBA teams after his racist comments, and when it comes to Stocktons assists, I just have to raise an eyebrow at some of the home/away splits. Sloan's system and favorable score keepers helped pad his assist numbers IMO (And plenty others)

Maybe the rings he has are clouding my judgement but I recall Zeke coming up big and raising his game in the playoffs by a substantial degree, I also feel his game would be better served to today's rules. I just dont know much about their playoff performances to have any sort of strong opinion here.

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 06:20 PM
No doubt, I just wonder about the media bias when it comes to Zeke vs Stockton. Zeke stopped making All-NBA teams after his racist comments, and when it comes to Stocktons assists, I just have to raise an eyebrow at some of the home/away splits. Sloan's system and favorable score keepers helped pad his assist numbers IMO (And plenty others)

Maybe the rings he has are clouding my judgement but I recall Zeke coming up big and raising his game in the playoffs by a substantial degree, I also feel his game would be better served to today's rules. I just dont know much about their playoff performances to have any sort of strong opinion here.

WOW!!! Chronz... come on man... Stockton was straight up better than Thomas. Thomas stopped making All-NBA teams because his game fell. The racist comments? All he said was that if Bird was black, he wouldnt get the same amout of press that he got, and he was right. I dont think people thought that was racist.


As for Stockton's assist numbers, you have to give him credit for that. Every player has favourable score keepers.... why would stockton's numbers be the only ones impacted? Stockton was an amazing play maker. And a far better scorer than Thomas. Better percentages across the board, Thomas just got more points because he shot more. Stockton got more steals, fewer turnovers, more assists.... I mean, the only arguement people can make for Thomas is by IGNORING Stockton's numbers, and then saying that people didnt vote for Thomas on the All-NBA teams because of one comment? Come on. Its not like people stopped voting for Artest for the All-Defensive team because he went into the stnads and beat up fans.

I loved Thomas growing up. I'm from the Detroit area, but even I know that Thomas is not better than Stockton.

Dnovakovic099
12-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Is it me, or are volume scorers such as Thomas, Iverson, and Kobe massively overrated? I was thinking this because of the thread and because of how Kobe and Nash are playing together. I see Kobe dropping points on good shooting, but lets say Kobe drops off and shoots around 45/46 percent and 34 from the three, would it be more effective for him to take an isolation shot as opposed to Nash completely running the show and finding other player's open for three? One thing I will say is though, that isolation/high volume shooters are useful in the playoffs and in the clutch because defenses clamp down on shooters. I could name a thousand occasions where Stojakovic, one of my favorite players since I am Serbian, disappeared in the playoffs. Heck, they benched him for Hedo a lot of the time because he was a better isolation player/defender.

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 06:39 PM
Stockton was never at any point in his career the superior player.

:facepalm:

Did you see Thomas in 93/94? It was painful. Stockton was clearly the better player that season.

Chronz
12-29-2012, 06:49 PM
:facepalm:

Did you see Thomas in 93/94? It was painful. Stockton was clearly the better player that season.

I meant at no point was Stockton better than Prime Zeke

Chronz
12-29-2012, 06:52 PM
WOW!!! Chronz... come on man... Stockton was straight up better than Thomas. Thomas stopped making All-NBA teams because his game fell.
Every year? Even though his team made 3 straight Finals and were dominant regular season teams?


The racist comments? All he said was that if Bird was black, he wouldnt get the same amout of press that he got, and he was right. I dont think people thought that was racist.
LOL he said alot more than that over the years, remember when he said it was better for black people to call women *****es? You really dont know what a scumbag/competitor Zeke was if you think thats all he said. And LOTS of people thought he was racist with that comment.



As for Stockton's assist numbers, you have to give him credit for that. Every player has favourable score keepers....
Thats not true, I dont know of a single player that has the same home/away disparity.

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 06:58 PM
I meant at no point was Stockton better than Prime Zeke

Here is what I'll give you.

I'll freely admit that Thomas, when playing at his very best, was better than Stockton at his very best, but, Thomas is not capable of playing at his very best always, which Stockton was.

In a seven game series, I would expect Thomas to have a better game than Stockton at least once, perhaps twice, but over the 7-game series, Stockton's numbers would certainly be better than Thomas's numbers.


The thing with Stockton is that he was consistent. He always played at a high level, where as Thomas was very streakly, even within games. He could be cold all game, then go on a tear in the third or forth quarter, and in those instances, that level of play was as high as any level of play ever seen in teh NBA, but he couldn't keep that up. With Thomas, you always knew that he would give a 100%, like Stockton, but with THomas you never knew is that was gong to be 18 points on 6-19 shooting with 8 assists and 5 turnovers, or 31 points on 14-20 shooting with 9 assists and 2 turnovers. With Stockton, you always know what level of play you are going to get from him.

And that said, I would take Stockton in his prime over Thomas in his prime any day of the week. Liek I said in an earlier post, the only thing Thomas did more of was socring, and that's because he shot so much more. Stockton got more career points with fewer FGA. I think that had Stockton been playing his prime in Detroit when Thomas was, Detroit would have won three in a row, and they wouldn't have been swept by the Bulls in 91.

Tony_Starks
12-29-2012, 07:07 PM
Every year? Even though his team made 3 straight Finals and were dominant regular season teams?


LOL he said alot more than that over the years, remember when he said it was better for black people to call women *****es? You really dont know what a scumbag/competitor Zeke was if you think thats all he said. And LOTS of people thought he was racist with that comment.

Thats not true, I dont know of a single player that has the same home/away disparity.



It's hard for me to call Zeke a racist I just think he didn't know that a person that had his status at the time couldn't just say whatever he wanted. Fist off the Bird comment was said by Rodman, Thomas was asked about it and he agreed AND it was true.

The calling women B's thing was off the wall but he didn't say it's better for black people to say that he said he would take exception to a white guy calling a black woman a B. I understand why he said it in a racial and historical context, I wouldn't have said it but I get it.

But it's well documented he was a jerk, as evidenced by walking off the court when MJ beat him before the game was over.



Off topic I know........

SirSkyHook
12-29-2012, 07:08 PM
My list alltime

Magic
Big O
Logo
Stockton
Kidd/ Nash

JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2012, 07:47 PM
LOL he said alot more than that over the years, remember when he said it was better for black people to call women *****es? You really dont know what a scumbag/competitor Zeke was if you think thats all he said. And LOTS of people thought he was racist with that comment. .

WOW!!! I did not hear that one actually. You got to share more of this stuff with me. What else did he say?

In Detroit he was seen as a hero... a real stand up guy. He did all kinds of public service announcements and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jU3gWshC3Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWZ8fob3LQ

allSUAVE
12-29-2012, 08:00 PM
Joe johnson , Amare Stoudemire and even Mike Dantoni cant thank this guy enough

Hawkeye15
12-29-2012, 08:21 PM
Him winning a ring won't change my ranking on him, he won't be his teams 2nd best player even at this point. He is behind Magic, Stockton, Oscar, or Walt, and he would get lumped in with Payton, Zeke, and a couple others at those 5-8 spots.

RyanStorm
12-29-2012, 08:59 PM
Stockton doesn't have two rings, but he played against undoubtedly the greatest player and team in the NBA in the Finals, twice! Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls(you already know that). I just wish MJ could have just let us have one ring...how many do you really need when you become the first ultra super star of basketball.

I am so surprised that Utah didn't make it to the finals when Malone and Stockton had Mark Eaton, Thurl Baily, and Darrell Griffith. I mean that team sounds so much better than Hornacek, Harpring, Ostertag, and Russel.

I know Stockton is and probably forever will be #1, especially in those stats! We need a new PG in Utah, who can retake us to our former glory and beyond.
It sounds so stupid now, but when Dwill was around, I really thought he was the new era to continue on our Legacy, now we still don't have anyone, and with Mo out, its even more terrible!

Tony_Starks
12-29-2012, 09:06 PM
Stockton doesn't have two rings, but he played against undoubtedly the greatest player and team in the NBA in the Finals, twice! Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls(you already know that). I just wish MJ could have just let us have one ring...how many do you really need when you become the first ultra super star of basketball.

I am so surprised that Utah didn't make it to the finals when Malone and Stockton had Mark Eaton, Thurl Baily, and Darrell Griffith. I mean that team sounds so much better than Hornacek, Harpring, Ostertag, and Russel.

I know Stockton is and probably forever will be #1, especially in those stats! We need a new PG in Utah, who can retake us to our former glory and beyond.
It sounds so stupid now, but when Dwill was around, I really thought he was the new era to continue on our Legacy, now we still don't have anyone, and with Mo out, its even more terrible!


Come on that was smack dab in the middle of Showtime. You know Magic had the 80's on lock!

But I did think they had a legit shot against the Bulls both years. MJ was MJ but Rodman was huge in "containing" Malone. Prior to that he was playing like a man possessed!

But hey Stockton doesn't have rings because of two of the top 5 players of all time, that's nothing to be ashamed about......

Chronz
12-29-2012, 09:14 PM
Every year? Even though his team made 3 straight Finals and were dominant regular season teams?


LOL he said alot more than that over the years, remember when he said it was better for black people to call women *****es? You really dont know what a scumbag/competitor Zeke was if you think thats all he said. And LOTS of people thought he was racist with that comment.

Thats not true, I dont know of a single player that has the same home/away disparity.



It's hard for me to call Zeke a racist I just think he didn't know that a person that had his status at the time couldn't just say whatever he wanted. Fist off the Bird comment was said by Rodman, Thomas was asked about it and he agreed AND it was true.

The calling women B's thing was off the wall but he didn't say it's better for black people to say that he said he would take exception to a white guy calling a black woman a B. I understand why he said it in a racial and historical context, I wouldn't have said it but I get it.

But it's well documented he was a jerk, as evidenced by walking off the court when MJ beat him before the game was over.



Off topic I know........
Ill look it up when I'm home but I'm pretty sure he clarified his statements and they came off even worse

BaddNewz
12-29-2012, 09:26 PM
Nash is a top five pg of all time. Probably the only player besides Stockton that you build a team around that isn't your first priority scorer.

Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Nash
Thomas

JasonJohnHorn
12-30-2012, 10:27 AM
Thomas did say that, but it was duirng his time witht he Knicks, so it wouldn't have impacted his getting voted on an All-NBA team in 1988.

Here's an article on it:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/isiah-explains-double-standard-slurs-garden-trial-article-1.245457

I love how the article described two jurors "nodding off". lol


I understand what Thomas is saying. There is a cultural meaning for the word "b!tch" in different cultures. Nikki Minaj for examples often refers to herself as a 'bad b!tch', and Kanye West has written a song about Kim called 'Perfect B!tch'. I think the term is highly offnsive and mysoginistic, but I can clearly see in hip-hop that the word, like the N-word, has a meaning outside of the one attritbuted to the more general English-speaking population. That said, it could be argued that Thomas is suggesting that Black men be held to a lower standard than white men, and that people should be accepting of mysoginist terms such as 'b!tch' when Black men say it, and there are all kinds of problematic implications with that.

That said, there is an expectation in the work place that you should be treated with respect, and being referred to as 'b!tch', regardless of the colour of skin of the person using the word, is out of line.

As for the LArry Bird comments, it was Rodman that initially made the comment and Thomas simply agreed. Here is an article about that:

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/05/sports/thomas-explains-comments-on-bird.html

Thomas does a much better job explaining himself afterward in this instance, and I think Thomas was right. If Bird was Black, he very likely may not have won 3-straight MVP awards. He won the voting each season by a landslide, especially the second and thrid award. Larry was deserving in each case, but as is the case every season, there were other players equally deserving. I understand Rodman's comments and Thomas's response and i would say as well that I agree with them. I'm not going to get into it, because I don't want to be seen as baiting (I once got a CP3 thread deleted for baiting when i asked if CP3 would have won last seasons MVP if he were white... I think he would have). I think voters for the MVP can sometimes unconsiously take race into consideration. I don't think there has ever been a player who won the MVP award who didn't deserve it, but that said every season there are also players who don't win who were equally deserving of the aaward. I understand what Rodman was saying and what Thomas was saying and I think they have a valid point, especially in the 80s.

That said, I don't think what Thomas said impacted his All-NBA voting. I mean, Rodman is the one who said it, Thomas just agreed, and Rodman was still voted onto All-NBA teams and All-Defensive teams and won back-toback DPOY awards after he made these comments. Thomas was simply the bigger star at the time and so the media focused on him instead of Rodman who was only a rookie that year and was coming off the bench.

Hellcrooner
12-30-2012, 10:34 AM
Stockton doesn't have two rings, but he played against undoubtedly the greatest player and team in the NBA in the Finals, twice! Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls(you already know that). I just wish MJ could have just let us have one ring...how many do you really need when you become the first ultra super star of basketball.

I am so surprised that Utah didn't make it to the finals when Malone and Stockton had Mark Eaton, Thurl Baily, and Darrell Griffith. I mean that team sounds so much better than Hornacek, Harpring, Ostertag, and Russel.

I know Stockton is and probably forever will be #1, especially in those stats! We need a new PG in Utah, who can retake us to our former glory and beyond.
It sounds so stupid now, but when Dwill was around, I really thought he was the new era to continue on our Legacy, now we still don't have anyone, and with Mo out, its even more terrible!

im think stockton > thomas but if there is ONE thing you cant argue in favour of stocketon over thomas is precisely the ring and jordan thing.
Because thomas pistons BEAT THE CRAP out of Jordan bulls in their way to their two titles.

yankeefan54
12-30-2012, 01:04 PM
Nash is 5th

JasonJohnHorn
12-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Thats not true, I dont know of a single player that has the same home/away disparity.

I looked up Stockton home/away dispairty. He apparently averaged 11.4 assists per game at home, and 10.6 on the road. A difference of 0.8, which I think is reasonable given that teams score less on the road than they do at home, so it would make sense that their PG would get fewer assists on the road.

I can't find a site that have the splits though, send me a link to one if you don't mind, I'm curious to see what the differences are for other players.

ztilzer31
12-30-2012, 01:57 PM
Johnson
Stockton
Kidd
Thomas
Nash
Payton

Ew Nash better than Payton? No way.

ztilzer31
12-30-2012, 01:58 PM
I don't think he's even a top 10. No rings, and no defense. I can't give someone that ranking who's great offensively and bad at everything else.

Chronz
12-30-2012, 03:57 PM
I looked up Stockton home/away dispairty. He apparently averaged 11.4 assists per game at home, and 10.6 on the road. A difference of 0.8, which I think is reasonable given that teams score less on the road than they do at home, so it would make sense that their PG would get fewer assists on the road.

I can't find a site that have the splits though, send me a link to one if you don't mind, I'm curious to see what the differences are for other players.
Thats higher than Nash, GP, and Billups combined IIRC. I know Rondo has a similar figure and I always felt the scorekeepers were generous to him.


Also look at his high assist years.

86: +1.3
87: +1.6
88: +1.5
89: +.7
90: +1.8
91: +2.2
92: +.9
93: +.3
94: +.5
95: -.7
96: +.3
97: -.2
98: +1.8
99: +3.1
00: +1.2
01: +.4
02: +.6
03: -.3


Maybe Im making too much out of it, doubt it changes anything but I would love to see how his advanced line looks when we only focus on road averages from all his competition tho.

NetsPaint
12-30-2012, 05:33 PM
He's still at least a top 5 PG in the league, but a lot of people say he's not because of his age.